Wednesday, August 16, 2006

Multiculturalism is to blame for perverting young Muslims

The Bishop of Rochester, Michael Nazir-Ali, is both personally and professionally qualified to comment authoritatively on religious tensions. His father converted from Islam to Roman Catholicism, and the Bishop himself is a convert from Roman Catholicism to Protestantism. This journey from darkness to light has given him considerable insight. Writing in The Daily Telegraph, he says:

It is clear, therefore, that the multiculturalism beloved of our political and civic bureaucracies has not only failed to deliver peace, but is the partial cause of the present alienation of so many Muslim young people from the society in which they were born, where they have been educated and where they have lived most of their lives.

Unlike the politicians, and most of the pontificating religious types, the Bishop offers a solution:

The cultural heritage of people who come here must be respected. They should be able to take pride in their language, literature, art and spiritual background. At the same time, if they are to adjust to life in this country, they should be prepared to live in mixed communities, and not on their own. Their children should attend school along with those who come from the host culture, or from other cultures and traditions. They should be willing to learn through the medium of English and to be socially mobile, rather than "ghetto-ised" on the basis of religion, language or culture.

Cranmer simply says Amen.

100 Comments:

Anonymous Rick said...

The cultural heritage of THIS COUNTRY must be respected.

16 August 2006 at 08:34  
Blogger Bishop Hill said...

Readers of this thread may be interested in this piece on Labour Home which offers a (how to put this politely?) different approach to the problem.

"The more we pluralise our cultural identity, the less we will all have to fear from those who no longer seem so "other" to ourselves, and the less we will see ourselves as protectors of a way of life that this "other" misunderstands and has little respect for. The more we define ourselves by what we have in common, the less the distance between us will become. And the more we learn not to dehumanise each other, the less we will see each other as bent on destroying humanity.

PS Lots of clergy involved in this piece. Perhaps we should call it a convocation, your Grace?

16 August 2006 at 09:01  
Blogger istanbultory said...

Amen,amen.It is just that the political class/mediaocracy/academic 'elite' don't "get it"...and probably never will. I suspect that a large chunk of the CoE ruling class doesn't either....

16 August 2006 at 09:14  
Anonymous Lena Mouse said...

Very good Cranmer, and well done Bishop Michael. The overwhelming message is that those who enter the country MUST respect the British way of life and our cultural heritage.

The Labour Home piece is meaningless twaddle. It is full of contradictions. It asks us to identify ourselves by anything but nationality or religion, when these are the two most powerful 'innante' forces which give us our identity. It says that we should see ourselves as gay, Sun readers, or football supporters, BEFORE we see ourselves as Christian or British. Why on earth is this any less divisive? In the case of football, it can be much more so!

16 August 2006 at 09:41  
Anonymous Rick said...

The more we define ourselves by what we have in common, the less the distance between us will become

Now let's focus on the bit "we have in common" and see just how slender is that ledge upon which the whole edifice is perched

16 August 2006 at 09:48  
Anonymous Ulster Man said...

What we have in common:

We eat
We excrete
We breathe
We grow
We move
We reproduce
We respond to external stimuli

All that we have in common is what I also share with a potato.

16 August 2006 at 10:00  
Blogger istanbultory said...

Bishop Hill is not actually a man of the cloth (you may be surprised to learn)but he is a grand pontificator whose blog is well worth a loiter. I dare say, His Grace, would be apt to cast an approving eye over the deeds of Bishop Hill...

16 August 2006 at 10:12  
Blogger Mission Impossible said...

New Labour is full of 'soft' Communists and ex-Communists. Those in its ranks who failed to pronounce an allegiance to communist idealisms have been indoctrinated, nonetheless, by attending courses run by University Humanities Faculties.

At least 65% of our Colleges and Universities are, to all intents and purposes, Marxist-Leninist indoctrination centres. What in God's name are Women's Studies or Post Colonial Studies if they aren't Marxism writ large?

Communism means internationalism: no borders, unity of mankind, egalitarianism, world government, the wilful breaking down of National Identity, and all the other predictable tosh you see printed in The Guardian and Independent, and New York Times, et al. See any parallels there with Islamism?

Why be surprised when New Labour sponsors, on their website, someone who advocates Football team allegiances more highly than national identity?

These idiots often dine together, dinner-party together, attend the same seminars, live in or near the same trendy areas of London. They feed off each other, ignoring the reality of life and human nature that goes on outside. They all take their cues from another gang of Marxist acolytes, employed in the Media.

It's a self-reinforcing lemming race to the edge.

They may be 40+ or 50+ years old now, but they still have the emotional maturity of an adolescent. You could see the warning signs back in the 1970s and 80s in the thinking & attitudes of students. They are are older now. They comprise your government and our official opposition parties. Presently, these naive adolescents have hold of the levers of power. Don't be surprised if their most treasured policies are all predicated upon silly college theories and irrational, idealistic expectations.

The peddling of such mental aberrations has made many people rich just by disseminating the stuff in specially launched (trendy) magazines and newspapers.

You will need to reject the whole package, the whole ethos, in order to put an end to the current malaise. There are no half-way measures. There is no room any more, for squeamishness.

YOU (all of you) will have to change, and dramatically, before there is any chance of seeing constructive and positive changes to the political and cultural situation! Each of you has an individual responsibility to fulfil that you cannot pass on to others.

16 August 2006 at 10:25  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All that we have in common is what I also share with a potato.

It always comes back to Ireland's national symbol doesn't it !

16 August 2006 at 10:35  
Anonymous Rick said...

Sweden has the answer.............

Jens Orback, Sweden’s Minister of Democracy, said on a radio discussion:

We must be open and tolerant towards Islam and Muslims because when we become a minority, they will be so towards us.

16 August 2006 at 10:41  
Blogger phone cam foolery said...

If I may point out to Bishop Azir Ali , many of us dont want to mix with you or have you as neighbours and the feeling is mutual, we dont belong together and never will.
immigrants to this country are on the whole unwelcome, the people of this country didnt invite them and given the chance would have denied them entry.
Mass immigration is being used by a global elite to destroy all societies not just ours, they also invented feminism for the same reason.

16 August 2006 at 11:25  
Anonymous Lena Mouse said...

Phone Cam there's no need to be racist over this. It isn't the fault of second or third generation immigrants at all. We can belong together when there is an acceptance of the dominant culture of the country, and a sharing of its traditions and values. We can't undo what has been done, so there's no point suggesting a 'go back home' BNP message. This is now their home, through accident of birth, so carping on about 'we would have denied them entry' isn't achieving anything. The Bishop therefore has a very good point. We must teach our children the traditions and values of this country, and they should swear an oath of allegiance to Queen and Country on leaving each level of school, at the end of infants, junior, and secondary education.

16 August 2006 at 11:37  
Blogger Mission Impossible said...

lena mouse ... I understand your point(s), but you appear to see racism as only emanating from whites towards non-whites. I think you know this to be bogus and a sham.

Sorry to disappoint you, but some of the damage can be undone. It is not irreversible at all. As more people understand reality, they will be willing to contemplate the pragmatic measures necessary to correct wilful mis-deeds by this neo-communist regime.

Pakistani's living in "little Pakistans" in Burnley and Bradford, et al, would logically be the first candidates to be invited to return back to their ancestral homeland. Most home-grown terrorist suspects to-date have come from that community.

You also completely distort the BNP message. The BNP is not the National Front, so you might do well to stop demonizing the BNP. Instead, it is a nationalist party for the indigenous majority. Anything you find particularly wrong with that? It needn't be threatening to you, because the BNP already meets regularly with Leaders of Britain's Sikh Community. If they were openly racist, as you hint, then they would not do this, would they?

On Identity, the BNP Manifesto says:

The British National Party believes in genuine ethnic and cultural diversity and the right of ALL peoples to self-determination and that must include the indigenous peoples of these islands. The British peoples are embroiled in a long term cultural war being waged by a ruling regime which has abandoned the concept of “Britain” in pursuit of globalisation. We are determined to win that cultural war, and to that end, we must take control of our national borders.

On Immigration the BNP Manifesto says:

1. In any society claiming to be based on the rule of law, it must be beyond serious controversy that all illegal immigrants must be deported as soon as they are discovered. [This is exactly what many other countries do; countries that are not demonized by people such as you].

5. We will impose a permanent lifetime ban on re-entry into Britain for any reason on any person found guilty of having violated British entry or immigration laws, enforced by instant deportation.

On immigration, they also say this:

1) Our first step will be to shut the door. A BNP government would accept no further immigration from any of the parts of the world which present the prospect of an almost limitless flow of immigration: Africa, Asia, China, Eastern and South Eastern Europe, the Middle East and South America would all be placed on an immediate ‘stop' list. This would later be subject to review in the case of genuine students accepted for training as part of our long-term policy of helping to build up Third World economies in order to facilitate the voluntary return of their nationals or their descendants under our long-tern resettlement programme.

On immigration, they also say this:

Those illegal immigrants who truthfully declare their illegal status to the authorities during the registration period will be able to claim, in the case of skilled and key workers, extended leave to remain in the United Kingdom as long as they are benefiting the UK economy and stay as residents until such time as we have had time to train British personnel to replace them. [Again, this is exactly what most non-European countries are doing already].

On the thorny issue of Multiculturalism and Identity the BNP Manifesto says:

The present regime is engaged in a profound cultural war against the British people, motivated by the desire to create a new ethnic power base to replace the working class which they have abandoned in pursuit of their enthusiasm for globalisation, justified by a quasi-Marxist ideology of the equality of all cultures. We intend to rebuild the basis of democracy in Britain, which is the right of all free-born Britons to debate in public the facts as they see them by restoring true freedom of speech to Britain.

On Multiculturalism and Identity they also say this:

10. A massively-funded and permanent programme, using and doubling Britain's current foreign aid budget, will aim to reduce, by voluntary resettlement to their lands of ethnic origin, the proportion of ethnic minorities living in Britain, for as long as the majority of the electorate are willing to fund such expenditure. Since the chief impact of such a programme would be the assistance it would render to Developing Countries in the Third World, this is described further in Section 16 – Britain and the World.

11. While accepting the right of law-abiding minorities, in our country because they or their ancestors came here legally, to remain here and to enjoy the full protection of the law against any form of harassment or hostility, we will also seek to emphasise the importance of the prior status of the aboriginal people. This would be a national extension of the ‘Sons and Daughters' policy in priority on housing and school places lists which BNP councils seek to implement at local level.

There is no automatic BNP "go back home" message for people of different ethnicities who are already established and settled in Britain. I see no need for the Sikh and Gujarati communities to worry one jot. They would actually benefit from voting BNP. They are already well-integrated.

As for Blacks, there has been a community of British blacks since the 17th century (I believe). I see no evidence they will be discriminated against; perhaps a more self-confident white community would embrace our own Blacks more warmly (we do quite well already). In any case, that ill-disciplined community would clearly benefit from improved discipline in schools and a vast improvement in the school curriculum. No more MTV lifestyles and no Yardie gangs ruling areas of Birmingham and London.

What the BNP is today proposing is not that different from what is already being practised in Singapore.

You should make an effort to understand before simply dismissing a well-intentioned party just because it feels "right-on" for you to do so.

The BNP Election Manifesto is available, in full, at their party website.

If you want to complain about real political extremism, then just try examining what The Guardian newspaper prints on a regular basis.

16 August 2006 at 12:28  
Anonymous Rick said...

Pakistani's living in "little Pakistans" in Burnley and Bradford

Actually Bradford has a problem between Pakistanis and Bangladeshis and those who wish to be described as Kashmiris rather than Pakistanis or Asians.

16 August 2006 at 12:38  
Blogger phone cam foolery said...

lena mouse
I am a rascist and make no apologies for being so , That is not to say I hate other races nor wish them ill, I just prefer to live amongst my own, as do they.
If you allow millions of highly fertile savages to live amongst you then eventualy they become the majority and you find yourself living in a savage country just like the ones they left, they will not adapt to our ways as the are incapable of doing so.
Africa is hardly renown for its literary giants and contribution to science is it?
Not one society on that whole continent had a written language nor untill Europeans/Arabs arrived, nor had they worked out how to make a wheel.

16 August 2006 at 13:29  
Blogger phone cam foolery said...

Everytime I open a newspaper to read about the perpetrator of a rape robbery or murder invariably there is a black face staring back at me from the page and I am sick of it, Scandinavians are currently suffering from a huge increase in rape and murder, all carried out by blacks immigrants, In the usa a black is 10 time more likely to commit a crime than a white person that figure is an official FBI statistic.
So yes I am a racist and I don't care who knows it.

16 August 2006 at 13:34  
Blogger istanbultory said...

Mr. phone cam foolery has admirably fessed up to being a racist. It is his inalienable right to adhere to a racist world view- I for one would not choose to associate myself with such a view but there we are.

Would you describe yourself as a "racist" for the record, Mr. mission impossible.... I do wonder.But then the BNP isn't a racist party is it? Also I am not sure that the use of ethnic residential quotas in public housing (as used in Singapore ostensibly to prevent the emergence of ethnic enclaves) would be positively viewed by many in the BNP. Especially if hitherto
"all white" estates in wherever started to see an infusion of Blacks and Asians.

16 August 2006 at 14:15  
Anonymous DavidG said...

I like the thrust of this article. Bishop Nazir has articulated what his boss the Archbishop of Canterbury should be articulating, but he's too busy sitting on fences solving the dilemmas of gay priests and female bishops - you know, the real problems of the world.

I think where he falls down is that if immigrants retain an adherence to their 'own language, literature, art, spiritual background', you're back to square one. 'Taking pride' in these things leads to a 'foreign' identity, and this leads to fighting for them if they're threatened. It's not a solution. It's just a more optimistic way of saying he hasn't got a clue what to do about it.

16 August 2006 at 14:19  
Anonymous Rick said...

but he's too busy sitting on fences solving the dilemmas of gay priests and female bishops - you know, the real problems of the world.

No....simply Staffing problems.........or what they call HR work ...........it is all about the Insiders

16 August 2006 at 14:50  
Blogger Fruning Graplecard said...

I am not quite sure what kind of newspapers Mr Phone Cam reads. I rather gathered that some newspapers will go to extraordinary lengths to avoid printing pictures of ethnic minority wrong doers because the editors are all too painfully aware that this contradicts their rather blinkered liberal views.

We have all had positive experiences of immigrant participation in our wonderful culture. My experience is that the consumption of a Curried Chicken aids the digestion and promotes recovery from illness. Also that the smell of Patchouli masks the aroma of urine in phone boxes. So you see, there has been a contribution to our society because of ethnic diversity, and long may it continue. Have you ever run out of Basmati rice and wondered how it came to be such a store-cupboard essential? I cannot think of any contribution the Afro-Carribean community has made to our cultural commonwealth, but I am sure there are many.

As for our Muslim friends, they have certainly provided some footage for the wonderful 24 hour news people. Are they on holiday here or do they plan to stay?

16 August 2006 at 15:12  
Blogger Mission Impossible said...

gc ... Yes, I of course expected someone else to chime in with a cynical and peurile response to my 12:28PM.

Frankly, you can "wonder" until the next blue moon about whether I am a racist or not. Although I think it would be more productive for you to reflect on what you exactly mean by the term.

I, and people like me, are more qualified than most to talk of race and racism, as we have already spent many years immersed in other, quite alien cultures; rubbing shoulders with other races. That kind of life isn't usually tolerated by racist bigots.

People like you will accuse others of racism for the slenderest and most obscure reasons. You have lost your sense of proportion and reason.

As regards Singapore, you know full well you are cherry-picking its housing policy just to make an empty point. Have you ever spent time in Singapore? And if so, how many visits and for how long?

There remain ethnic enclaves in Singapore, and substantial ones at that. The Singaporeans wouldn't have it any other way. There is also racial tension - inevitable when you place three distinctive ethnic groups in such close proximity. But, at least the Singapore Government is not trying to turn the majority Chinese into second class citizens via undue preference for any minority groups.

As for the BNP, I am not a spokesman. Go and ask them yourself.

All I would say is that your 2:15PM post was full to the brim of cute prejudice, intended to irritate. I would suggest that your knowledge of racism, your understanding of who is capable of it, and your awareness of who has been expressing it, is at a juvenile level.

16 August 2006 at 15:14  
Blogger phone cam foolery said...

Well Rowan Williams is a theologian, it is his way to gaze towards his navel and think about such matters.
Despite my "fessing up" to being a racist I have to admit to quite liking what I see from the Archbishop of my beloved York Dr John Semtanu ,He talks commonsense and come across as a decent man who knows a bit a bout the real world.i read a joke he told recently, he said
" I am a yorkshire man by nature, my middle name is Mugabe, and if you pronounce that backwards its e-ba gum" made me laugh (+:

16 August 2006 at 15:26  
Blogger Cranmer said...

Well Rowan Williams is a theologian, it is his way to gaze towards his navel and think about such matters.

Cough.

Not always, Mr Phone Cam Foolery. Please do not denigrate the entire profession.

Mr Fruning Graplecard,

You are very welcome to Cranmer's venerable blog. The only demands are for intelligence and erudition, but His Grace immediately perceives both of these in your inaugural contribution. He thinks you will get on very well indeed with many here, especially one Mr
Aubrey de Tocquaine, LL.D.

16 August 2006 at 15:57  
Anonymous Rick said...

I cannot think of any contribution the Afro-Carribean community has made to our cultural commonwealth

They do some very good fish recipes.....and play good cricket.....or did

16 August 2006 at 15:59  
Anonymous DavidG said...

Your Grace, I feel compelled to draw your attention to this:

http://www.pickledpolitics.com/archives/715#comments

Shocking. Guido is running with it as well.

http://5thnovember.blogspot.com/2006/08/tory-blogger-suspended-by-orange.html

Makes you want your country back, doesn't it?

16 August 2006 at 16:11  
Blogger phone cam foolery said...

Your Grace,
I unreservedly withdraw my remark about theologians and his grace Dr Rowan Williams in particular.
From What I hear he knows some very good fish recipes, ahs a great sense of rhythm and bowls a mean googly, not only that but he can also limbo under a 2 foot high bar.

16 August 2006 at 16:17  
Blogger Cranmer said...

Mr DavidG,

His Grace thanks you for that, but is already on the case. He is trying to seek corroboration of this rumoured suspension, which, if true, will result in the immediate closing of his Orange account, and an announcement in the pulpit on Sunday as to why.

16 August 2006 at 16:17  
Blogger phone cam foolery said...

Mr Grapplecard
I of course read the Daily Mail, foreigner bashing,humilliating pictures of Cherie Blair in a swimming costume, cancer scares and advice on what kind of frock to wear with some Keith waterhouse thrown in , what more could a person ask for in a newspaper?

16 August 2006 at 16:24  
Blogger Fruning Graplecard said...

Your Grace.
Thank you for your warm welcome. I have been observing your blog for some time and believe it is excellent in every way.

I am, of course, aware of Sir Aubrey, who is a well-liked member of my club.

As for this unfortunate breaking news, it seems that the quintessentially British way of dealing with serious issues, i.e. humour, has backfired on the poor soul at Orange. I for one wish him well and for the record, have long since dumped that particular service provider on the grounds that their telephone operators were vulgar and had regional accents.

16 August 2006 at 16:29  
Blogger istanbultory said...

LOL, Mission impossible, LOL.....
Allow me a response to your previous rant:

1.The BNP says that it isn't racist but then argues that racism is an intrinsic part of the human condition. Pretty sophisticated argument.

2. What do you mean that the "BNP is not the National Front". John Tyndall, one of the founders of the National Front and one of its leaders, was a key player in setting up the BNP in 1982 which he then led until Nick Griffin took over in 1999 (Griffin being a former National Front member himself . Griffin has said “…having been involved for a short time in the NF you can't come back into polite society. After a certain point there's no coming back,"). How true.
The NF favoured compulsory repariation and the BNP doesn't. The BNP is slightly less homophobic than the old NF (or so they claim and this is highly debatable in itself). It would be more accurate to state that the BNP is merely the continuation of the NF in slightly moderated form with much the same ideology intact (non-whites are inferior to whites and the world is controlled by a vast Jewish conspiracy) and the party has marginally improved political marketing. Back in 1993, Nick Griffin says “…When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate." No doubt you would agree….

Your Grace,
I apologize for this digression from the topic at hand but felt honour-bound to return fire.

16 August 2006 at 16:41  
Blogger phone cam foolery said...

gc
Tony Blair was once a devotee of Marx, as was John reid, fungus the bogeyman , peter Mandelsohn and most of the nu labour cabinet , using the argument you use against the BNP that means that nu labour is a marxist party run by marxists.

16 August 2006 at 17:08  
Blogger istanbultory said...

Thank you phone cam foolery. But my argument was how little the BNP differs from its predecessor, the National Front. NF/BNP share many of the same leaders and supporters (in the main) with the same ideology (aside a few minor, cosmetic changes).

The NU Labour leadership is clearly a post-socialist phenomenon (with many of the authoritarian tendencies common to Marxists)while many core Labour members and supporters have clearly kept faith with the old religion.When Bliar departs the scene we will see if the Labour Party reverts to previous form.

16 August 2006 at 17:41  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

Is there not room in this democratic country for all shades of opinion?we used to be capable of it, why not now?It would seem that nationalist parties are written off as "racists" "fascists"and for supposedly intelligent people that is a grave flaw,did not mission impossible say"you should make an effort to understand before dismissing a well intensioned party just because it "feels right on "to do so"? And whatever you may feel about bnp nf have they no right free speech also,these are good people too ,but have been slandered by the media for so long that it has gained credibility amongst the unthinking and the vacuous.But to return to our deluded foreign clergy , christianity is in our genes and our blood , we do not need to be told what is right for us,it is only those who breathe the rarefied air of the church hiearachy that have such pretensions,was not sentamu one of idi amins chief judges and had to flee once amin was deposed to avoid the retribution of his own people?these placemen have no credibility whatsoever,on the other hand the bishop of litchfield had many pertinent things to say before he was shouted down and ostracised,i agree with kipling in "the stranger at my gate"after all one always knows what his own people are capable of.

16 August 2006 at 17:47  
Blogger phone cam foolery said...

gc your argument only stands if nu labour is indeed "post-socialist"
they talk that way, however, they do not walk the talk, classic communism.

16 August 2006 at 19:04  
Blogger Professor D.C. Warmington said...

My Lord Archbishop

A word to the wise about Mr Graplecard: he has been blackballed from my club. The man is a bounder and should be ignored.

I am, Your Grace, as ever

Your Grace's faithful correspondent

A. de T.

16 August 2006 at 20:01  
Anonymous Rick said...

When Bliar departs the scene we will see if the Labour Party reverts to previous form.

Of that I am unsure. I have expectations that John Reid as Leader could shed the Left to be absorbed into the Cameron Party and a "Safety First" campaign a la Baldwin would leave the inchoate Cameron Party looking slightly vacuous

I have heard talk of Labour reverting at each election since 1997 but at some stage one has to consider that such changes are not possible - or does the Cameron Party intend to pursue this course in opposition for 10 years to prove it is no longer what it was ?

16 August 2006 at 20:13  
Blogger istanbultory said...

Rick,
An interesting argument, but I can't see the union block vote or the bulk of the membership voting for Reid. For that matter, only about a third of the parliamentary Labour Party can be categorised as unswervingly Blairite. Will Labour revert to its former self of the '60s and 70's, who can say? As for Cameron, it seems that he is embracing the style and much of the substance of Bliarism at the very time when the British people appear to have had enough of Blair and his ilk....I can't figure out the logic in Cameron's strategy at all.

16 August 2006 at 20:26  
Blogger ScurvyOaks said...

[Your Grace,

Please disregard. I'm testing to determine whether I can get this comment to post. I've been submitting comments that don't post over the last few days.]

16 August 2006 at 20:27  
Blogger ScurvyOaks said...

Your Grace,

Well it worked, so I will try again.

The Bishop is precisely right. In this long struggle, we will need cultural confidence above all. Western Civilization is not perfect, and its history has had some very low points; we are all sinners. But we should not hesitate to defend Western Civilization on the merits, and we should not worry about whom we offend in the process. We need madrasahs of liberty, in which children of every color and creed are taught civil liberties and human rights. Part of that education in liberty is its history, as the long, reform-oriented working out of the ideals of Athens and Jerusalem.

Also, in case no one else says it today, thanks so much for the Book of Common Prayer. Life would be quite different without it.

16 August 2006 at 20:32  
Blogger phone cam foolery said...

Aubrey de Tocquaine, LL.D
: he has been blackballed from my club
Boot polish or lead?

16 August 2006 at 20:37  
Anonymous Rick said...

Also, in case no one else says it today, thanks so much for the Book of Common Prayer. Life would be quite different without it.

I think we should also thank William Tyndale who suffered a similar fate to our host and whose New Testament provided much of the language of the KJV based on the 1539 King's Bible.

The inability of the clergy to understand the XXXIX Articles or to uphold the Law of England which recognises only the 1662 Book of Common Prayer as valid, is the cause of the dry rot which pervades the institution and renders it little more than an apologist for the Mohammedan purveyors of Dianetics and their obesseion with human sacrifice to Moloch

16 August 2006 at 20:51  
Blogger ScurvyOaks said...

By the way, my church here in Dallas, Texas has a wonderful stained-glass window with a group portrait of our host, Tyndale, Wycliffe, Latimer and Ridley, complete with Bishop Latimer's "light such a candle" quote. We owe a lot to each of these brothers in the Lord, including every effort to make certain that that candle in England shall never be put out.

16 August 2006 at 20:57  
Blogger istanbultory said...

Scurvy oaks said:
"... In this long struggle, we will need cultural confidence above all...we should not hesitate to defend Western Civilization on the merits, and we should not worry about whom we offend in the process..."

That's what we need to keep in mind. Political extremism does not assist our cause but acts as a diversion. Thank you.

16 August 2006 at 21:06  
Anonymous vikki said...

Your grace,
May l contribute even if lam lacking in intelligence and erudition.....?

16 August 2006 at 21:12  
Blogger istanbultory said...

vikki said...
"Your grace,
May l contribute even if lam lacking in intelligence and erudition.....?"

While awaiting the Venerable Cranmer's adjudication, permit me to say that I cant't honestly see a lack of intelligence or erudition as being major obstacles to contributing to this blog.

16 August 2006 at 21:58  
Blogger Cranmer said...

Mr Aubrey de Tocquaine, LL.D,

Until Mr Fruning Graplecard offends here, he is welcome, though I do not in any sense dismiss your reservations about his character. His Grace believes people to be worthy of his trust until empirical evidence determines otherwise. He shall keep a sharp eye on the correspondence.

Mr Scurvyoaks,

You are welcome to this venerable blog, and His Grace is much appreciative of your kind comments on his magnum opus. It was, you will understand, a labour of love, and the ultimate consequence is well known and documented in stained glass throughout Christendom. Mr Rick is quite right to mention Mr Tyndale. I envy him his relatively humane manner of execution.

Miss/Mrs/Ms Vicky,

There are a few whose contributions lack intelligence and erudition, and His Grace has been longsuffering. The point is that so many blogs are about superficial and irrelevant trivia; it has been Cranmer's desire to discuss religio-political developments in the manner to which he was wont. It is too much to hope for that a thread may emerge with the literary quality of yesteryear, yet those who contribute frequently do so with passion and fluency. These are acceptable seconds, though, of course, no substitute for intelligence and erudition.

16 August 2006 at 22:18  
Anonymous vikki said...

Debates,debates,debates!Would I be wrong in saying Cranmer not only spoke but acted...

16 August 2006 at 23:07  
Blogger phone cam foolery said...

Cranmer, you really are a pompous wanker,
you remind me of my Eng.Lit teacher, a nice chap who delighted in verbal and intellectual masturbation.
Goodbye.

16 August 2006 at 23:20  
Blogger Fruning Graplecard said...

Mr Aubrey de Tocquaine, LL.D,her suspe

The incident at the club you refer to is still under investigation; I have not been blackballed by the club yet, and apart from a profuse apology to the waitress concerned, and the return of an unspecified tube of ointment, I, like the Prime Minister, can certainly not be expected to comment on matters sub judice, as I am sure you will be aware.

I feel that to allude to the matter on a public forum makes you out to be a hothead and an aspersion caster.

(Might I just apologise to our host for this eruption of vitriol, which I take full responsibility for. I would allude to Sir Aubrey's contribution as a "flame", but in the circumstances your Grace might find that word in poor taste)

Yours

FG

16 August 2006 at 23:51  
Blogger ScurvyOaks said...

FG,

Where there's smoke, there's fire.

(Sorry, your Grace.)

17 August 2006 at 01:04  
Anonymous Rick said...

Scurvyoaks - which part of Dallas ? I used to attend that very large church in Highland Park.........but lived north of LBJ

17 August 2006 at 05:54  
Blogger Mission Impossible said...

Your Grace ... I wish to commend the four line paragraph contributed by scurvyoaks 8:32PM.

-----------------------

Now, let me address, as briefly as I can, the contradictions and emotionalism presently afflicting our 'bloggee friend,' Mr. gc.

If political extremism worries you Mr gc, as you noisily claim, then you are duty bound to criticise and oppose equally, between 40% and 60% (at rough guess) of all New Labour Party members: they all have communist sympathies.

Communism is extremism. The hard left as respresented in Britain by New Labour, and in America by the New Democrats (which have enjoyed relative immunity from coherent criticism for too long) is extremism. The dogmatic imposition of multicultural programmes upon the British (and European, and American) people is extremism.

The public servant, Greg Dyke, once described the BBC (a public service) as "disgustingly white." That, Mr. gc, is a racist expression, offensive to all whites. Had he been the Director General of the state broadcaster of Nigeria, his comment might have made sense.

Clearly, the very mention of the acronym 'BNP' raises your blood pressure; well before rational discussion can begin. You are suffering from a pavlovian conditioned response. For you and your kind, the letters BNP are the equivalent of holding up a Cross to scare the living daylights out of ghouls and vampires. Therefore, the problem lies in your mind, which requires healing.

For you to write Political extremism does not assist our cause but acts as a diversion in your 9:06PM post, is to display either wilful ignorance, confusion, or sheer hypocrisy. Your unfettered excusing of New Labour and then a romanticised appeal for a return to the "halcyon" days of the Fabians, Militant Tendency, and Government by Trade Unions, shows your true colours; and the idiocy of your argument.

Newton's Third Law of Motion states: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

The growth in popularity of the BNP is a direct response to the self-destructing policies of New Labour. If you don't want the BNP, then the wisest course of action would be to destroy New Labour. But, to destroy New Labour, you would also have to completely overhaul Local Government, the Universities (i.e., their Humanities Faculties), the BBC, and the Legal Profession. The BNP has become the only effective antidote to New Labour madness.

Perhaps you might like to define for us what a "post-socialist phenomenon" is? Alongside other nonsense terminology, like: post-modernism, post-feminism, post-colonialism, et al. These are all academic inventions created for the purpose of justifying work opportunities for Nutty Professors; those that teach the multi-hues of the social sciences.

Race is a canard. You people of the political left have only one response when losing a rational argument (which you do constantly): you make ad-hominem attacks on the other person. You have tried to do this to me, whilst making baby appeals to Cranmer:

Your Grace, I apologize for this digression from the topic at hand but felt honour-bound to return fire. (ref: 4:41PM)

Return fire? The record shows it was you who fired the first rounds! Your apology is therefore insincere and only designed to deceive.

You quote Nick Griffin: Back in 1993, Nick Griffin says “…When the crunch comes, power is the product of force and will, not of rational debate." But, you don't explain the context in which his words were spoken. What about the economically damaging "force and will" expressed by the Trade Unions during the 1960s and 1970s? What about the "force and will" used to impose the cult of Multiculturalism upon all those who never had the chance to debate its deleterious effects, let alone vote for it? For these, you have nothing to say, and hope people won't notice.

Nick Griffin was living in (or near) Brixton at the time of the Brixton riots in the early 1980s. He mingled with the crowds who were opposing the Police in order to observe. Elements in the populace rioted because they objected to Police patrols within the Brixton borough, which they considered Black territory. In other words, they wanted to be left alone, to enjoy an unfettered life of whoring and marijuana smoking. He decided then to join the NF and then help to moderate its message; giving us the BNP as it is today. A reasonable and noble act. A lot more honourable than the paths trod by many a Labour leader or Cabinet member.

You see, gc, your world is coming to an end. Like it or not, it is all over. Most socialist legislation, most socialist gains, have been made by deceiving the public, by using non-Parliamentary means (e.g., judicial pronouncements), and by manipulating opinion by creating artificial demons. More and more, people are beginning to understand the great Marxist project.

The true humanitarians, are those on the right of the political spectrum, and not the murderers of the left. Communism (Bolshevism, & Maoism) and National Socialism (Nazis) have between them been wifully responsible for more innocent deaths than the Bubonic Plague.

Socialism will one day be killed off, and placed into the trashcan of history where it belongs.

As for you--with your morbid fear of offending anyone except your own kind--we must pity someone who loathes himself so much he is willing to accept, and then internalize, the failings of all other races, as if he had himself been responsible. What a sorry mental state you must be in.

17 August 2006 at 05:55  
Blogger Professor D.C. Warmington said...

Your Grace, Brothers and Sisters

Let us pray for Mr Graplecard, just as we pray for Mr Foolery: for they are lost souls.

Yours etc.

A. de T.

17 August 2006 at 09:13  
Blogger istanbultory said...

LOL, Mission Impossible. I am certainly not a creature of the political left - far from it (as some of thhe older hands who visit this blog would confirm). Rest assured- my mental state is fairly sound as Mrs. GC would (just about)confirm. The NU Labour leadership (who are evidently far less saner than I)would certainly characterise as a post-socialist body in that they now "claim" a clear affinity for the free market and and have junked notions such as nationalisation, Clause 2 etc. But then there has been a rapid conversion to capitalist policies (even if not always capitalist rhetoric) of formerly socialist regimes and movements almost everywhere in the world.
The post-colonial/post-feminist type of academic approach is often daft but then the whole point of academics is to come up with new ideas (that are often absurd) but can then be openly challenged by others. That's where we inhabitants of the blogosphere can play a role. The "war of ideas" is a healthy part of Western civilisation much despised by radical Islamists amongst others.
You are certainly right to note the fact that large numbers of white, former Labour voters have deserted Nu Labour and defected to the BNP. The great failure of all "mainstream" parties is their failing to reflect people's concerns over immigration and race relations. No doubt about it.
Mission Impossible,
I respect your right to express support for the BNP. And I never knew that Nick Griffin actually lived in Brixton in the early '80s amongst "all the whoring and drugs".
I do not condemn your beliefs-I choose not to go along with them. I support Lord Tebbit (hardly a communist) when in a letter to the Daily Telegraph (21 April 2006) he described the BNP thus "I have carefully re-read the BNP manifesto of 2005 and am unable to find evidence of Right-wing tendencies. On the other hand, there is plenty of anti-capitalism, opposition to free trade, commitments to ‘use all non-destructive means to reduce income inequality'’, to institute worker ownership, to favour workers’ co-operatives, to return parts of the railways to state ownership, to nationalise the Royal National Lifeboat Institution and to withdraw from Nato. That sounds pretty Left-wing to me"

'Sounds pretty left-wing to me as well.
Or Melanie Phillips:
"The BNP’s one-time flirtation with Libya and Iran is of course particularly intriguing, given its current rampant anti-Islamism. The explanation is surely the reason why Trotskyites and neo-Nazis share some of the same preoccupations, and why they share them again with Islamist fascists: that the common thread that links them is a totalitarian mindset, an obsession with power and a determination to destroy freedom and democracy and the moral order of the western world. This is probably why — at least in part — they both hate Jews so much, because Jewish moral order is at the heart of western freedom and civilisation" http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/?p=1203

Every form of totalitarianism is an enemy of western civilisation. I don't pick and choose.

17 August 2006 at 09:20  
Anonymous Rick said...

You are certainly right to note the fact that large numbers of white, former Labour voters have deserted Nu Labour and defected to the BNP

In recent Council elections held in this district the BNP contested 16 of 30 wards I believe and came second in 9, gaining an average 27.5% vote...........this created a swing against the Conservative/Lib Council in favour of Labour overall as Conservatives lost seats.

Listening to people who talked quite openly about the way they intended to vote, it was clear that policing and crime had a big impact - they are closing police stations here and we hardly ever see police nowadays.

The other issue was the huge influx of asylum-seekers, illegals, etc. with a sign outside the police headquarters saying "Welcome" in 20 languages.

There was just a general sense of frustration and irritation at commercial politicians performing for camera - the Conservatives are a fringe party round here, a bit of a Southern innovation as they have shrivelled away since the 1980s and now promote a message at odds with daily experience..............

17 August 2006 at 09:43  
Blogger Mission Impossible said...

gc ... I think your repeated claims to laughter (LOL) hides your nervousness and your sham motives for engaging in this debate. For you, this has been personal. I believe I have identified a much earlier post where I "offended" you. For example, your silly comment: I respect your right to express support for the BNP has more than a hint of manipulation about it.

What I have tried to do, and I believe most people will recognize this, is to counter the automatic demonization of the BNP by fools such as yourself. Perhaps you might like to express your equal disdain for the Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru?

Sarcastically echoing my own words, you wrote: And I never knew that Nick Griffin actually lived in Brixton in the early '80s amongst "all the whoring and drugs". Seems like you are prepared to condemn everyone living in Brixton at that time, simply by virtue of having the post-code. I doubt you have ever been to Brixton. Shouting off your ignorance again, as you did earlier regarding Singapore.

It is also worth recalling that I posted comments in defence of the BNP in response to lena mouse's reactive use of the term 'go back home' BNP message (see her 11:37AM post from 16-Aug). I thought it worth countering the demonization of the BNP, especially as we do tolerate (for reasons we should review) the Workers Socialist Party within our midst without getting hysterical about their very existence. You ... gc ... then burst onto the scene, spitting out your dummy, and causing all kinds of commotion over the very appearance of the term BNP. The Holy Cross to the vampire effect.

Practically all points in your 9:20AM post were already known to me. I am already aware of the left-wing inclinations buried within the BNP manifesto. I am also well-aware of the general adoption of "capitalist" policies (as you put it) by ostensibly socialist parties right across the western world. Probably more so than you.

You support Lord Tebbit? But, he has no political party. He now lies on the fringe of the Conservative Party, already proclaimed dead by Peter Hitchens.

As for Melanie Phillips, she can get a little hysterical at times. I thought Tony Blair was doing a rather nice flirt when he sat in Gaddaffi's tent in 2005. And, I lost count of the number of times Jack Straw kissed an Iranian Mullah's cheek. Again, you don't place your "revelations" into any context.

Jewish moral order is at the heart of western freedom and civilisation?? Well, I'd best leave the accuracy of that assertion to the religious experts on this blog, but I suspect it is an arrogant and self-serving belief. Melanie is Jewish.

Jews have also been at the very heart of efforts to bring an end to western civilization; namely Marxism, Bolshevism, and the Frankfurt School. Perhaps you missed the friendly exchanges between rick and myself on this very topic, which confirmed the Jewish association without any shadow of a doubt?

Every form of totalitarianism is an enemy of western civilisation. Well of course they are. Did you think you worked that one out all by yourself?

I suspected you were fundamentally immature some time back. Let's leave it at that before our mutual enmity disturbs this blog any more than it already has.

I shall leave you to LOL in private.

17 August 2006 at 10:47  
Blogger istanbultory said...

I fear our mutual enmity is capable of monopolizing this blog. We should refrain from our war of words (the divide between us apparently so inseperable) that others might have chance to get a word in edgeways.

Your Grace, would you care to interject on Melanie Phillips assertion that "Jewish moral order is at the heart of western freedom and civilisation"? Surely Mel makes a valid point...

17 August 2006 at 11:40  
Anonymous Ulster Man said...

While His Grace ponders that, I'd say it's self-evident. Western civilisation is built upon what are essentially Mosaic law - ie the 10 commandments. The sex ones have been moved to 'private' matters, but the 'public' ones are still upheld. In that sense, we live in a Judeo-Christian moral order.

17 August 2006 at 11:59  
Blogger Thomas Fuller said...

gc, they're not called "Judaeo-Christian" values for nothing.

P.S. ulster man, you pipped me to the post.

17 August 2006 at 12:01  
Anonymous Rick said...

"Jewish moral order is at the heart of western freedom and civilisation"? Surely Mel makes a valid point...

Strange that - I have always known Melanie to speak of "Judaeo-Christian" in the context of Europe.........

17 August 2006 at 12:41  
Anonymous Rick said...

I know what she means now.........she is empasising the Judaeo- components since that is what she believes to be under attack from Left and Right.........in fact from the perspective of anyone with Jewish children going to Jewish schools there are many aspects of life in France or Britain or Belgium today which do give one cause to be fearful.............

Just from my own experience - to see my old grammar school (now independent) with no Jewish pupils..........as the Muslim component has increased - the Jewish component has migrated to other independent schools.........I can see that canaries do indeed offer guidance to those in mines.

17 August 2006 at 12:47  
Anonymous Lena Mouse said...

Of course this country has its values from Judaism. The foundations for civilisation are derived from the Old Testament, and these were emphasised in the New Testament by Jesus. Our moral law is therefore Biblical, which is why the monarch is crowned by swearing an oath on the Bible, and prayers to God (the Christian one!) are said every day in Parliament.

17 August 2006 at 13:21  
Blogger istanbultory said...

Exactly, Rick. Spot on. And full marks to Lena as well. And the others who agreed with Melanie Phillips assertion. As Paul Johnson puts it:
To the Jews "...we owe the idea of equality before the law, both divine and human; of the sanctity of life and the dignity of human person; of the individual conscience and so a personal redemption; of collective conscience and so of social responsibility; of peace as an abstract ideal and love as the foundation of justice, and many other items which constitute the basic moral furniture of the human mind. Without Jews it might have been a much emptier place." ("A History of the Jews")

A much emptier place....

17 August 2006 at 13:44  
Blogger Fruning Graplecard said...

This has been a stimulating, if meandering debate. I have enjoyed it very much. Now I must bid my fellow boggers, lurkers and anons and venerable host adieu, as I am off to Scotton Pinkney (http://scottonpinkney.blogspot.com) for the weekend, where I have taken a lease on number 9, The Ovaries. Should I meet up with that other resident, one Sir Aubrey de Toquaine ll.d, I shall be obliged to meet him at dawn on Sunday at The Triangle, Scotton Pinkney at dawn, where he will find me with my single trigger Gallyons at the ready. He must make sure his associates are prompt for I do abhore sloppy seconds.

17 August 2006 at 14:15  
Blogger Fruning Graplecard said...

Oh dear my post is riddled with errors. That's Château Margaux for you.

17 August 2006 at 14:22  
Anonymous Rick said...

I think Scotton Pinkney is riddled with errors myself and is definitely in need of a cordon sanitaire.

17 August 2006 at 15:06  
Blogger Mission Impossible said...

fruning graplecard ... I am aching from laughter thanks to your literary style. Have a very good weekend, but don't do any lasting harm to our dear Aubrey de Tocquaine, LL.D.

Jewish moral order is at the heart of western freedom and civilisation. This is a distortion. It seeks to crown Judaism as the supreme civilizing component within Western Civilization. It isn't. Stop fawning at the Torah.

Belief that it is so, only encourages a dangerous moral superiority in Jews, which is presumably why a large proportion of the Jewish Community in Europe, over the past 130 years, has felt justified in creating new, highly corrosive theories that have led directly to violent, revolutionary upheaval, death camps, and subversive politics. We in the West have endured more than enough social engineering by Jews.

I trust that statement will not be mischievously interpreted by certain persons as anti-semitic. I am playing devil's advocate here, and then some.

The heart of western freedom and civilization contains a number of other vital components. We obsess with Jewish inputs at the expense of gaining a more rounded understanding of who we are, and where we have come from.

Magna Carta ... British Library Translation

I know, I know ... someone is going to tell me next, Jews stood on the field at Runnymede, witnessing its signing.

Original English Parliament (13th Century)

The Declaration of Independence


With reference to an earlier comment (1:21PM) ... I would respond thus ... If the foundations for civilisation were indeed derived from the Old Testament, then how do you explain China?

If you think in packs, and hunt in packs, you will surely drown in packs.

17 August 2006 at 15:08  
Anonymous Ulster Man said...

China is hardly a country I would quote as being concerned with issues of freedom or justice! It is only as China has been exposed to Western values that it has begun to embrace Western values - ie, Judeo-Christian ones.

17 August 2006 at 15:53  
Blogger ScurvyOaks said...

Rick,

I attend The Chapel of the Cross on Cole Ave. It's 3 blocks south of Knox, just west of Central Expressway (so south and east of Highland Park). We are part of the Reformed Episcopal Church and use the 1928 BCP.

MI,

The grounds of WESTERN civilisation are Judeo-Christian thought and classical Greek thought. I'm not trying to explain China; perhaps Ms. Mouse wasn't either.

17 August 2006 at 15:59  
Anonymous Rick said...

Mission Impossible I find the Magna Carta very pretty - did you know it was on display in the original at the 1939 World's Fair in nEw York and we asked the Americans to look after it for the duration ? However it only represented a deal with the Norman barons and King John who had usurped his Crusader brother Richard - it has little bearing on thee and me.

You forgot Oliver Cromwell, Lord Protector of England, who reformed both Monarchy and Parliament and dis-established The Church of England and abolished the House of Lords, and made Portugal England's oldest ally............and uttered these famous words in 1649

“this is a righteous judgement of god upon these barbarous wretches, who have imbrued their hands in so much innocent blood....”

He also made the personal decision against parliamentary opposition to permit the return of Jews to England in 1656 which probably laid the groundwork for Britain's trading heritage together with the Huegenots fleeing France after the Revocation of The Edict of Nantes.

However, I do not believe it is possible to disentangle Christianity from Judaism, and that The Torah being The Pentateuch is integral to the Church of England under Article VI of the XXXIX Articles.

Those Jews who embraced Secular Religio-Political Movements were more often not religiously-inclined so must as rejectionists seeking an alternative religion. It is one of the few religious groups to have had very high levels of literacy throughout the ages and is significant in that a Jewish carpenter's son could read, write and debate with rabbis............but a wealthy Arab trader in Medina was an illiterate - a feature preserved in adherents of Islam to the present day.

Judaeo-Christian strikes me as most appropriate as a descriptor since the 4 gospels of the New Testament strike me as pretty forlorn without their anchoring in the Old Testament - which in its Lutheran form is more aligned with The Hebrew Bible than is the Roman Catholic Bible

17 August 2006 at 16:45  
Blogger Professor D.C. Warmington said...

Dear Mr Rick

You said: "I think Scotton Pinkney is riddled with errors myself and is definitely in need of a cordon sanitaire."

This charming Hampshire village happens to be my home. The only cordon that needs to be erected is one to keep out Mr F. Graplecard, a disruptive parvenu who has settled in our community with the sole object of bringing disgrace upon myself and Lady de Tocquaine -- for the imagined slight I did him during a ballot at the Reform.

As I informed His Grace earlier, the man is a bounder; more: he is a priapic bounder, as inspection of his so-called blog will reveal. He should be ignored by all those here. That is the best way to discourage him.

I beg His Grace's pardon for interjecting this explanation, but I feel one is owed to His Grace's esteemed guests in view of the unpleasantness already occasioned.

I am, sir, and intend to remain until Nature intervenes,

Yours &c.

A. de T.

17 August 2006 at 17:18  
Blogger istanbultory said...

Rick daid:
"I do not believe it is possible to disentangle Christianity from Judaism"

You are most certainly right. Monotheism and the moral teachings of Christianity all orginate with the Jews.

17 August 2006 at 17:27  
Blogger Croydonian said...

It is lively round here, isn't it? Not sure where your Grace stands on Calvin, but a rather attractive chair of his is exhibited in the Cathedral of St Pierre in Geneva.

Meanwhile, returning to the issue at hand, whether one likes or dislikes the input of sundry Jewish thinkers - Marx, Freud, Einstein et al - their ideas are embedded in the weft and warp of Western culture. One might also note that being free of restrictions on usury, European Jews were a cornerstone in the creation of banking system.

I have seen it argued that the presence of Jews in Western Europe served to facilitate the Reformation by exhibiting the idea of there being another way to God, which would have been considerably more of a leap in a monolithically Roman Catholic culture. (And yes I know that there is also the example of Orthodoxy to the East)

17 August 2006 at 17:42  
Blogger istanbultory said...

Dear Mr. Aubrey Tocquaine,
Sir, be it known that on his blog of ill repute, Fruning Grapplecard parades an image of a fully disrobed Mrs Grapplecard complete with a lascivious glint in her eye.
I fear with such abominable means and devices that Mr. Grapplecard intends to entirely corrupt the virtue of every upstanding son of Christendom in Scotton Pinkney. I for one, am scarcely prone to temptations of the flesh but when confronted with such indecent imagery , even I was aroused from my slumber.…..
I remain, sir, at a loss…

GC

17 August 2006 at 17:51  
Blogger Professor D.C. Warmington said...

Dear Mr GC

Quite so.

Yours &c.

A. de T.

17 August 2006 at 17:56  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not sure where your Grace stands on Calvin,

Shame on you Croydonian for that you should know..........and Diarmaid MacCulloch produced a tome to answer that very question for you - ISBN: 0300074484 - I append a section of a review on Amazon since I realise you modern students hate to read books when handouts can be stuffed in your pockets........

Cranmer's beliefs were distinct, certain, and in some respects quite different from what I had thought. He was a strong predestinarian, and for this reason felt that "good works" had no effect upon where a soul went after death. He viewed the Pope as the Antichrist, and profoundly believed that the Ruler of England was the Head of the Church. (This led to his profound spiritual disorientation and crisis when the Catholic Mary succeed Edward VI; suddenly the person whom he viewed as Head of the Church was allied with evil personified).

Cranmer was decidedly "low church" in his beliefs and liturgy. The Eucharist, for him, was purely a memorial, and the bread and wine were not the true Christ. In his view, Christ was sacrificed once only at Golgotha; to say that each Eucharist was a new sacrifice was for him anathema. (A vestige of Cranmer's clear belief survives in the language of the Rite One Eucharist--"one oblation of himself once offered.") During his time, he had rood screens and images removed from churches, removed many saints' and holy days from the Church calendar, moved altars away from the church wall and toward the worshipers (this, at least, agrees with our modern theology), and changed the language of worship to English.


Calvin did not make a good job of running Geneva - rather a sad place I gather - but you could console yourself with TULIP and the Westminster Conference

17 August 2006 at 18:03  
Anonymous Rick said...

Sorry Your Grave - that anonymous was "Rick" who placed his name in the Webpage slot

17 August 2006 at 18:04  
Anonymous Rick said...

Sorry Your Grace.........I am no good as a typist "Your Grave" was one of those errors which precludes employment in that field

17 August 2006 at 18:05  
Blogger istanbultory said...

Rick,
I dare say the Venerable Cranmer will forgive your typographic iniquities. Cranmer was probably apt to make a few writing errors himself what with that dodgy right hand of his....
Mr. Croydonian,
Welcome home. Your absence has been felt most acutely.

17 August 2006 at 18:12  
Blogger Croydonian said...

Rick - thank you for that. I do not doubt that his Grace is less than keen on Calvinist predestination and the concept of the Elect, but felt that he might regard his fellow gentleman of the cloth as not being entirely bad. Given that my mother was raised in the Church of Scotland, I felt that it would be fitting to honour Knox's inspiration.

GC - I'm moved. Thank you.

17 August 2006 at 18:21  
Blogger Mission Impossible said...

Some of you have gotten rather hysterical today. Not a Full Moon, so must be something else.

I wasn't trying to disentangle Judaism from Christianity at all. How could I?

No, I hadn't forgotten Oliver Cromwell, Lord Protector of England. I was dashing off to eat dinner. Three URLs in one post was enough. In lieu of Cromwell, I thought a link to some bunff on England's first (13th Century) parliament would be of even greater interest.

Still, despite the grandstanding, there have been some constructive clarifications evident in a few of the responses.

My main point, is that whilst acknowledging the tumultuous inputs the Jews have made to Western Civilization, we should not overlook sundry other inputs of equal or greater significance. Our obsession with Jewry does get extremely tiresome.

As regards China, I was not seeking to praise the virtues of Communist China. The Chinese civilization dates back millennia (circa 2200 BCE) as you may well know. In my 3:08PM post, I was alluding to Ancient China. Specifically, prior to the Qing Dynasty (1644 - 1911). We should not be so arrogant as to assume we are the only civilization worthy of the word ... civilization.

17 August 2006 at 19:01  
Anonymous Rick said...

I thought a link to some bunff on England's first (13th Century) parliament would be of even greater interest.

I share W. S. Churchill's admiration for Oliver Cromwell and refuse to be fobbed off with a dissertation on the 13th Century English Parliament ! Shame on you Mission Impossible.............no wonder those tapes self-destructed !

17 August 2006 at 19:44  
Blogger Fruning Graplecard said...

Dear GC

I am so glad you enjoyed Mrs Graplecard, or to give her her due title, Grafienė Graplecard. She is available for appointments only and promotional tours.

Yours,

Grafas Fruning Graplecard.

ps.

I shall deal with A de T later.

17 August 2006 at 20:44  
Blogger istanbultory said...

Mr. Croydonian,
I take it Geneva has failed to become the City of God envisaged by Calvin. I rather suspect that Calvin and Knox would have regarded the English Reformation as a somewhat effete affair.

But these are mere trifles-the Pope's the Anti-Christ and that's all there is to it. I hazard a guess that Mr. ulsterman will back me up on that one.

17 August 2006 at 20:51  
Blogger istanbultory said...

Grafas Fruning Graplecard,Esq.

Sir,
Self-evidently Grafienė Graplecard is a most striking damsel. Doubtless her distinctly voluminuous proportions have provoked favourable comment from far and wide. Suffice to say her allure is devilishly intense and I,sir, will, henceforth, seek solace in the prospect of a home visit at the earliest convenience.

I am,sir, empassioned, willing and able….
GC

17 August 2006 at 21:08  
Blogger Croydonian said...

GC - if the Good Lord's plan was that His people should offer private banking services and sell watches Jean Cauvin would be mightily pleased. If not....

17 August 2006 at 23:09  
Blogger Mission Impossible said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

18 August 2006 at 05:10  
Anonymous Rick said...

We don't wish to bruise your ego too much, as we seek to make use of your services in future, so ...

You won't do that so long as you engage your intellect.........which, by degrees, I see we are encouraging on this site........

18 August 2006 at 06:29  
Blogger Mission Impossible said...

However it only represented a deal with the Norman barons and King John who had usurped his Crusader brother Richard - it has little bearing on thee and me. (4:45PM)

You overlook the plausible fact the Magna Carta acted as a precursor to the eventual transfer of power from the royal throne (absolute rule) to a parliament of the people (representative rule). The Barons were a natural first step in a feudal society. Cromwell's ideological efforts did not come out of the blue. The 13th Century English Parliament was another incremental step in the evolution of the parliamentary concept.

In which case, the Magna Carta has great significance for the eventual establishment of western freedom and western civilisation.

Please ponder these points; I am confident you will reach the same conclusion.

18 August 2006 at 08:51  
Blogger Terry Hamblin said...

To disentangle the Jewish and Christian contributions we must turn to St Paul who explained that the purpose of the Law was to demonstrate the impossiblility of keeping it. Hence our reliance on Grace rather than works.

18 August 2006 at 09:03  
Anonymous Rick said...

who explained that the purpose of the Law was to demonstrate the impossiblility of keeping it.

That is a restrictive viewpoint since The Torah still applies in its full 613 Mitzvot to Jews - but Gentiles were only bound by Noachide Laws and 10 Commandments - in essence they did not need to define themselves as "Jews" in order to come within scope of the Covenant............it did not affect the 613 Mitzvot or Christians would not have spent the first 70 years worshipping in Synagogues


As for the 13th Century Parliament and Magna Carta - I critique your reliance on these components simply because of your failure to include Cromwell and the Civil War - which had its great effect in The Restoration and the reluctance to depose James II without having a replacement to hand............it was simply your over-reliance on these facts rather than your inclusion of them

18 August 2006 at 10:13  
Blogger Mission Impossible said...

rick, you appear to have misunderstood my intent.

I actually assumed the whole Cromwell & Civil War contribution to Britain's unique history would be self-evident to most contributors to this blog. Hence my omission. I was not prepared to give a comprehensive history lesson in my blog posting. I had other things to do.

I had hoped my 7:01PM posting would provide sufficient clarification.

My point was, and remains, that there has been a sequence, each subsequent event building on earlier events and precedents.

The first step on England's long and sometimes bloody path to Parliamentary representation (eventually achieved by Cromwell) was made with the signing of the Magna Carta.

I am puzzled as to why you are finding this particular point so troublesome.

18 August 2006 at 17:13  
Anonymous Rick said...


I am puzzled as to why you are finding this particular point so troublesome.


Some of the readers of this blog are American..............

18 August 2006 at 22:22  
Blogger Sir Thomas More said...

"This journey from darkness to light has given him considerable insight"

Excuse me but why is moving from Catholicism to Protestantism a journey to light? Surely it should be rephrased to 'a journey from ignorance to the truth to the misguided'

18 August 2006 at 23:47  
Anonymous Rick said...

Well Sir Thomas you are a case of a lawyer who rose high and fell from grace. However it is the case that Martin Luther has not yet been beatified by the Church of Rome, yet as an Augustinian monk he saved the Church of Rome from collapse and lapsing into idolatry just as the Second Temple embraced moneylenders and commerce so did Tetzel illustrate the commercialism of secular princes of the Church.

19 August 2006 at 06:58  
Blogger Cranmer said...

Sir Thomas,

You are welcome to this venerable blog.

To assert that Protestants are misguided is to persist with Rome's perpetual delusion that it is the sole organ of all truth for the whole world, and that the Pope, as successor to Peter, is the means by which such truth is communicated, ex cathedra.

His Grace is at a loss to see how such absolutism differs from the claims of Shi'a Islam.

+Cranmer

19 August 2006 at 08:57  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have immense respect for Bishop Nazir-Ali who has both the courage and honesty that have failed most of his C of E clerical colleagues. However it is not multiculturalism, failed and mistaken doctrine though that is, that has perverted young Muslims, IT IS ISLAM itself. Here, I am going to say it because somebody needs to, the truth is that ..... ... ISLAM IS EVIL!

24 August 2006 at 22:18  
Blogger Little Black Sambo said...

Hooray for Anonymous 10.18. Perhaps the TRUE Moslems are not the cuddly moderate ones but those who want world domination. Perhaps we are up against not "militants" or "isolated young British men", but the very nature of Islam?

25 August 2006 at 21:59  
Blogger Little Black Sambo said...

I forgot to say: this particular correspondence is probably about to finish, but Anonymous's point must surely be taken up again.

25 August 2006 at 22:02  
Anonymous agatha said...

omg u ppl are so conservative. u r blaming muslims. fist of all. it would b real great if muslims were able to integeate but unfortunately when they come here they get shunted ino poor twns and stick out like a sour thumb bc evryone else gos to their white towns. we are not trying to be different nor doe islam preach this. luk at out empire ans the work we did then. that is true islam. faith schools are fine. personally muslims come out brighter frm tose schools. if u guys r not willing to integrate with muslims then its not gonna happen. it takes 2 to tango. terrorism has nothing to do with islam. its got to do with muslims being the most vulnerable. u guys dont really try to tal to us, u jus talk behind our backs like u r doing on this website! this gives extremist wierdos a chance to brainwash them. these terrorsts have no ideaabut islam, they dont pray or nethin. they are jus influenced bc society has abondoned them. judgin frm ur iews u guys dont talk to muslims that much. talk to muslims in oxbrisge they ae well bright and cold kick ur asss ne time. thanx for wastin ur time radin dis email froma 80 yr old lady. im very lonely, thats due to u gys ignorin old ppl and talking amongst ur self. i cant identfy eith modern stuff. jus like mulims cant identify wt walkin ot naked an drinkin. duh

12 September 2006 at 21:21  

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