Sunday, December 03, 2006

Church bookshops ban Qur’an

It is most encouraging on the Lord’s Day to return from one’s pulpit duties, open The Sunday Times, and discover that the UK’s oldest and most established chain of church bookshops is to stop selling the Qur’an. The Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge (SPCK) was founded in 1698, and over the centuries has produced millions of books, booklets, leaflets, pamphlets and tracts which have not only assisted believers in their private devotions, but have contributed to some of the nation’s major socio-political advances, such as the abolition of the slave trade, the education of the poor, and prison reform.

In recent decades, however, SPCK had taken to promoting a multi-faith, amorphous spirituality rather than Christianity exclusively. But in a surprising change of direction, they have now decided to remove the Qur’an from their shelves because it is ‘inimical’ to Christianity.

The choice of word is interesting, coming from the Latin inimicus, meaning unfriendly, hostile, and even harmful. Cranmer wonders whether such a declaration would fall foul of the Government’s proposed religion-hate laws, which they have promised to ‘strengthen’ following the acquittal of the BNP leader, Nick Griffin. If Mr Griffin may not, in a private meeting, state that Islam is a ‘wicked and vicious faith’, by what right may the SPCK say publicly that it is hostile or harmful one?

Only a month ago the SPCK was bought by the St Stephen the Great Charitable Trust, which is linked to the Eastern Orthodox Church. The chairman of this trust states without equivocation: ‘Stocking books which are inimical to Christianity, which without question the Qur’an is, could well create the wrong impression among some that we endorse the belief systems of other religions as equal or viable alternatives.’ It is his mission to counter the ‘explosion of Islam’ in the UK, and hold back the tide of secularism. He intends to ‘re- establish Christianity in areas where it has been driven out’.

Cranmer notes that SPCK’s patron is Her Majesty the Queen, who may find their newly-discovered crusading spirit a little unpalatable. Certainly, her heir and successor is unlikely to continue the royal patronage. But, perhaps more importantly, it must be asked how long it will be before members of the SPCK board, or workers in its shops, are arrested for stirring up ‘religious hatred’. Or how long it will be before these bookshops are torched by Muslims who feel that their faith has been demeaned or their prophet insulted. The Muslim Council of Britain has already complained. It will not be too long before the violent tendencies of Islamism take the law into their own hands, or force this dhimmi Government to act on their behalf.

76 Comments:

Anonymous Ulster Man said...

Why on earth were church bookshops ever stocking the Koran in the first place?! How many mosques sell the Bible?

I'm no apologist for Griffin, but Cranmer's point is important - what's good for the goose, etc. SPCK's language is a bit un-PC, however, and it's probably not surprising it's getting a negative response in the media, and from the MCB, who generally can't wait to jump on anything 'anti-Islamic'.

3 December 2006 at 12:12  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is an interesting conflict between two religions that both proclaim that there is no god but their god..

However on a more serious note, cranmer raise an important point that it will not be long before islamic activists resort to the brand of protest they are most familiar it.. The Chairman os SPCK by making such a statement has done what one may call 'pouring fuel unto a fire that is already hard to keep under control'.
Wonder how long it will be before the first SPCK shop is torched? Guesses Anyone?

3 December 2006 at 12:13  
Anonymous Voyager said...

Not at all.

SPCK = Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge

I have found it most peculiar over years to see copies of the Koran, and a real failure to stock books like the Tanach. in fact the best selection of Christian books is Amazon.com in contrast to Amazon.co.uk which is rather poor.

A Tanach is available from Amazon.com and is a superb way of reading The Old Testament but it is hard to find books in SPCK pertaining to Judaism and Christianity which is most odd.

What is also missing are books like Strong's Concordance or even Old Testament Commentaries, and SPCK has been very weak on stocking second-hand Christian books - it has nothing on the Orthodox Christianity nor any of McDiarmid's books on the Reformation or books on Cranmer, Luther, Calvin, Hooker, and are very weak on stocks of King James' Bibles


Hopefully this situation will be improved.

3 December 2006 at 13:08  
Blogger Cranmer said...

Mr Voyager means Diarmaid MacCulloch's book Reformation and his excellent book about His Grace.

3 December 2006 at 13:56  
Anonymous Colin said...

A model for the future of SPCK members?

3 December 2006 at 14:38  
Blogger shergar said...

"in fact the best selection of Christian books is Amazon.com in contrast to Amazon.co.uk which is rather poor."

There's a reasonable selection, donations welcome, at the Christian Classics Ethereal Library...http://www.ccel.org/index/classics.html

3 December 2006 at 14:43  
Blogger istanbultory said...

Tejus, I doubt any SPCK shops will get torched. The Mohammedans will enjoy the victimhood and persecution presented by the SPCK decision but the SPCK is hardly on their collective radar...they have bigger fish to fry.

3 December 2006 at 16:24  
Anonymous Voyager said...

Mr Voyager means Diarmaid MacCulloch's book Reformation and his excellent book about His Grace.

1:56 PM


That he did Your Grace but he befuddled himself by thinking of works by Alister McGrath at the same time and blended them into a unity which probably is less disturbing to Mr MacCulloch than to Mr McGrath even though they each have University Chairs at my alma mater where you met your rather unsavoury demise Your Grace...........though I note that Mr McGrath has challenged the Microsoft Professor of Public Understanding of Science Dawkins to a verbal duel only for the man whose background in mathematical modelling the movements of animals and Microsoft money to run away when challenged to debate his hysterical antipathy towards religion

3 December 2006 at 16:30  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

voyager..
have left a comment for you in cranmers last article about "protestants in turkey".. do let me know what your views to what I said..

istanbultory..
did not someone once say that "the only (read easy) way for a mediocre person to become great is through martyrdom"?

3 December 2006 at 16:36  
Anonymous Colin said...

Voyager and Tejus,

Remember the discussion about Christian missionaries at His Grace's article Vicar keeps job after conversion to Hinduism (e.g. my 8:14 PM comment). Also my recent comment for Cranmer's article about "protestants in turkey".

3 December 2006 at 22:09  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

colin..
I read that article on the vicar..
its fabulous.. for at school I had teacher by the name John Grimes (look him up on the net.. influential chap in those ethics/morals/modern multi faith circles) who did pretty much the same thing cranmer wrote about..

funnily enough if you look carefully into hinduism you will find that various faiths were united under the brand of hinduism.. so even if the current heads of whatever hindu sects disagree you will find that hinduism will provides for any faith to integrate itself under it; i.e. notice the belief through various deities.. did you ever wonder how we ended up with so many gods all slight variations of one another performing the same function.. :)

and this kind of new religionism perfectly appeals to my situationalistic beliefs.. i.e. I can marry 4 wives (islam - no divorce payments needed - lol), believe that I can do what I want as long as my karma account is in the positive at the end of it(hinduism - i've written the article you suggested, do look it up), and also claim that I can eat all kinds of meat (christianity - love good food)... and also choose whatever beliefs are to my advantage from any other religions that exist.. brilliant.. this new multifaith thing appeals to me most definitely... :):):)

3 December 2006 at 23:23  
Anonymous Colin said...

hinduism you will find that various faiths were united under the brand

I find this a much better solution for humankind than the killings of monotheists about the question who has the only permissible god, crusades, jhihads etc.

I can marry 4 wives

Is this really such a good thing because sometimes one is already too much, isn't it. And wouldn't that make your karma account negative because you left 3 chaps without a wife. And would your 4 wifes be happy about getting only a quarter of a husband? On the other hand, if he has a lot of dough and is interesting, it might be better to get a share in a good thing than being married to a failure. What do the ladies on this blog recommend and what would Archbishop Cranmer say because he had so much understanding for King Henry's desires?

i've written the article you suggested, do look it up

I did look it up and are most grateful to you because I have learned something new and interesting. For those interested in intellectual matters, here is the link to Tejus article.

4 December 2006 at 00:41  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

also colin.. do look on my reply to that socialist on istanbultory's blog.. The guy wrote half a page of utter nonsense..

yea.. the 4 wives.. karma all depends on the situation.. assume I am taking them out of poverty.. lol

4 December 2006 at 00:53  
Anonymous Voyager said...

because he had so much understanding for King Henry's desires?

Desires ? I think more to do with having XY chromosomes to avoid war with his son-in-law in Spain and The Holy Roman Empire..............and of course to avoid the Civil War which followed the end of the Tudor Dynasty

4 December 2006 at 07:17  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I live fairly close to "the islamic centre of great britain" On maida vale , maybe I could nip around and ask if they would like to stock some bibles in the portacabin bookshp they have outside?

4 December 2006 at 11:27  
Blogger wrinkled weasel said...

You can no more prosecute a bookshop for NOT stocking "Fly Fishing" by J R Hartley than you can the Qur’an.

What you might not like to do is open a Christian Bookshop in some parts of Bradford or Leicester.

4 December 2006 at 13:03  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A hugely enjoyable site . Well done , your grace .
www.protestant-gazette.blogspot.com

4 December 2006 at 13:05  
Blogger Cranmer said...

Mr Wrinkled Weasel,

You are, of course, quite correct in law. A bookshop cannot be forced to stock anything of which it does not approve. Possible Muslim objections would not therefore appeal to the law, but to the media, then to Christian leaders, and on and on, until the policy were somehow shamed into reversal.

Mr Ian Hall,

Welcome to His Grace's august blog. May all your contributions (should there be any beyond your advertisement) be intelligent and erudite.

4 December 2006 at 13:19  
Anonymous Colin said...

Peter,

Great that you are back to His Grace's blog. I am sure, most readers were missing your contributions.

"I live fairly close to "the islamic centre of great britain" On maida vale , maybe I could nip around and ask if they would like to stock some bibles in the portacabin bookshp they have outside?"

Excellent idea. Obviously, you didn't forget voyager's crucial insight that Christianity thrives on martyrdom. I am sure that His Grace will be most grateful to you. Please let us know how they reacted in the bookshop.

4 December 2006 at 13:33  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you colin it is good to be back.
A friend of mine in the USA keeps promising to send me a "heroes of the south" T shirt, it has photos of founding members of the KKK on it, he has bet me that I wouldn't dare have my photo taken in a mosque whilst wearing it. well as soon as it arrives I will do just that, at the above establishment.Should be fun (+: and I will of course post the photo.

4 December 2006 at 14:02  
Anonymous Colin said...

I will do just that, at the above establishment.Should be fun (+: and I will of course post the photo.

;-) I am eager to see the photo.

4 December 2006 at 14:38  
Anonymous Voyager said...

What you might not like to do is open a Christian Bookshop in some parts of Bradford or Leicester.

http://www.spck.org.uk/bradford/

Welcome to SPCK's Bradford shop!

14 North Parade Bradford W Yorkshire BD1 3HY

MANAGER'S NAME: Nick Johnson
Tel: 01274 728669 Fax: 01274 759982
Email: bradford@spck.org.uk


Bradford

Bradford 2

SPCK and St Stephen the Great Charitable Trust are pleased to announce that they are to partner in a new move in the operation and intended expansion of the SPCK bookshops.

St Stephen the Great Charitable Trust (SSG) is an Orthodox Christian charity. Its partnership with SPCK will enhance and broaden its mission of distributing Christian literature.

SPCK have agreed that the Bookshops and their staff will transfer to SSG, continuing to operate as SPCK Bookshops (under licence) by SSG, with a maintenance of their breadth.

SSG and SPCK share a strong commitment to communicate the richness of the Christian Faith. SSG intend to employ a vigorous marketing strategy for the SPCK Bookshops. "People in our stressful, modern age, care deeply about spirituality and long for a deeper faith. SPCK Bookshops will offer a primary solution to these questions of faith" said Mark Brewer, Chairman of SSG. "SPCK will continue into its fourth century with its shops as places where all people, Christian or otherwise, are welcome and given the chance to widen their spiritual horizons."

"We are delighted to have found partners with a similarly strong vision and a determination to invest in the mission of presenting the Christian message imaginatively and effectively in an attractive environment", commented SPCK's new Chairman, Bishop Michael Perham.

Under the new arrangements, SPCK Bookshops will continue to stock a broad and diverse range of Christian books and resources. SSG will also place a major emphasis in online marketing at www.spckonline.com, utilising the internet and harnessing the market power and presence of SPCK's long history on the High Street.

4 December 2006 at 15:54  
Anonymous Voyager said...

So now Litvinenko gives our Muslim population another gripe

Dead Russian spy to be buried as a Muslim
Philippe Naughton

Alexander Litvinenko, the former Russian intelligence agent poisoned in London, is to be buried according to Muslim tradition after converting to Islam on his deathbed.

The spy's father, Walter Litvinenko, said in an interview published today that his son - who was born an Orthodox Christian but had close links to Islamist rebels in Chechnya - made the request as he lay dying in University College Hospital.

"He said ’I want to be buried according to Muslim tradition’," Mr Litvinenko told Moscow's Kommersant daily.

"I said, ’Well son, as you wish. We already have one Muslim in our family - my daughter is married to a Muslim. The important thing is to believe in the Almighty. God is one.’


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2486268,00.html

4 December 2006 at 16:29  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

well.. well.. another muslim martyr.. wonder how much Osama paid him or rather his family for him to convert//

4 December 2006 at 16:49  
Anonymous Voyager said...

Nothing..........like Berezovsky he is in with the Chechens

4 December 2006 at 17:30  
Blogger Brituncula said...

As one of the sad people who slogged all the way through the Koran (in translation) after 9/11 I have to say that I am mystified that anyone who had ever read the New Testament would consider conversion to Islam after reading the Koran so I have a slight feeling that SPCK are shooting themselves in the foot. My main feeling at the end was that I would never say another word against St. Paul so long as I live: bigotted or not he had an organised mind.

4 December 2006 at 17:53  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

perhaps the koran is meant to be obscure.. after all how many people would convert if they understood it in its entriety..

4 December 2006 at 18:06  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

after all how many people would convert if they understood it in its entriety..
MANY! there's no doubt.

4 December 2006 at 18:14  
Blogger Cranmer said...

His Grace does not wish to detract from Mr Litvinenko's dying wish, but he cannot now be buried 'according to Muslim tradition', not least because they require burial of the whole body within 48 hours. Failure to accomplish this results in the flesh being scourged by demons in the afterlife.

It is strange indeed to convert to Islam on one's deathbed; in fact, it is the first such case that His Grace has come across. The assurance of salvation offered in the New Testament simply does not exist for the Muslim. Why would anyone, on the cusp of meeting their maker, voluntarily supplant the promise of grace with the doubt of works?

4 December 2006 at 18:17  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

assurance of salvation offered in the New Testament simply does not exist for the Muslim.
yes, you're quite right, it does'nt. but doesn't the assurance of salvation make christianity all the more immoral. let's see, i've sinned...let's go and confess...yeyyy i've been forgiven, so let's sin again!

4 December 2006 at 18:21  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I say bugger Duncan Goodhew!
Nor could I care less If Putin had come to the UK on BA and beaten him to death on the Mall with a sledgehammer filmed by the BBC with a Dimbleby narration.
A nasty murky man who met a nasty murky death.
Who cares!

4 December 2006 at 18:25  
Anonymous Tejus Ramakrishnan said...

agree with hitchens on this one//

4 December 2006 at 18:55  
Blogger istanbultory said...

His Grace makes an important point tellingly overlooked by the conventional media. Muslims firmly believe that their deceased should be buried within 48 hours of death.
My knowledge of the Mohammedan leads me to put forward a number of other considerations.I know there is a concern that a Muslim who dies in a hospital in a non-Muslim land may not be treated in accordance with Islamic tradition if family or community members are not present at the time of death.Verses of the Quran should be read out aloud and prayers said to help in the transition of the dying from this world to the next.
There would also be concerns here related to how the body of the deceased should be handled as well as the question of impurity if a non-Muslim, particularly one of the opposite sex, handles the body.

According to some Islamic scholars burial should be in the simplest form, just as the Prophet mohammed was. Not every local authority in the UK permits shroud burials. And surely for (cough) environmental protection reasons shouldn't AL be cremated? Cremation and other modes of disposal are, however, considered to be strictly forbidden by the majority of Muslims due to the strong belief in corporeal resurrection.
So what is to become of AL's corpse?

4 December 2006 at 19:53  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

corporeal resurrection? They believe in that rubbish??

4 December 2006 at 21:11  
Anonymous bob said...

corporeal resurrection? They believe in that rubbish??
Christians also believe in corporeal resurrection. It's one of the cornerstones of the Christian faith, what with Christ rising from the dead, and the Nicene Creed stating that "We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

4 December 2006 at 22:03  
Anonymous Voyager said...

Why would anyone, on the cusp of meeting their maker, voluntarily supplant the promise of grace with the doubt of works?

Because he wanted to cause maximum trouble for Putin by involving the Chechens in his death and making himself a Chechen symbol. It unfortunately has the effect of introducing Britain into the Russia-Chechen problem.


Istanbul Tory - you surely must know enough Physics to understand that cremating a man polluted with a radioactive metal would be a superb way of spreading the radioactive material in the atmosphere.

He will not doubt be encased in a lead coffin inlaid in an outer casket and I should hope he will be buried in concrete...............he cannot be cremated for at least 22 years.

4 December 2006 at 22:06  
Anonymous Voyager said...

It's one of the cornerstones of the Christian faith,

NO. It is THE cornerstone of Christianity and is the basis of Pharisaic Judaism - Sadduccees did not believe in Resurrection but Pharisees did.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:40, "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."


corporeal resurrection? They believe in that rubbish??

Some cults believe in rubbish like reincarnation

4 December 2006 at 22:14  
Anonymous bob said...

I would include the Incarnation as another cornerstone of the Christian faith.

4 December 2006 at 22:17  
Anonymous Colin said...

"The assurance of salvation offered in the New Testament simply does not exist for the Muslim. Why would anyone, on the cusp of meeting their maker, voluntarily supplant the promise of grace with the doubt of works?"

Facing the dilemma of having to choose between the promise of grace or the promise of 14 virgins, he seems to have opted for the latter. "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone"

4 December 2006 at 22:17  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

voyager..
the ideas of reincarnation and resurrection are pretty much the same if one views them from a somewhat philosophical angle..

and if you read my last article on karma, where i very briefly touched upon reincarnation you will see that I mentioned the common misconceptions towards it..

I personally believe in so many faiths and yet find flaws in them all to the point of being an atheist which i am not.. Hence if I were to answer satisafactorily it would be a rather lenghty one.. Perhaps it is time for me to reflect upon my beliefs.. or perhaps I must leave them be for now..

4 December 2006 at 22:30  
Anonymous Colin said...

corporeal resurrection

Does anybody know somebody who has already met a corporeally resurrected person?

No? I guess that's why the unknown is somewhat eulogisticaly termed "belief".

So let's simply believe it because it makes us happy. The belief transforms the tragedy of life (i.e. it always ends in death) into a beautiful fairy tale.

4 December 2006 at 22:42  
Anonymous bob said...

Does anybody know somebody who has already met a corporeally resurrected person?

The New Testament has quite a few encounters between the corporeally resurrected Christ and his disciples, so I think we can say, at the very least, we know of some people who have met a corporeally resurrected person.

Tejus - theologically reincarnation and resurrection are profoundly different.

4 December 2006 at 22:54  
Anonymous Colin said...

Bob,

For avoiding hard work and a making decent a living, some intellectuals are willing to tell people whatever they want to hear, including ...

that they know the future,
that building pyramids helps,
that history will inevitably lead to socialism and equality ...

Is there anything we can safely exclude from such a list?

4 December 2006 at 23:09  
Anonymous Tejus Ramakrishnan said...

The theological difference between reincarnation and resurrection may be profoundly different and my knowledge in such matters is not great.. Hence to deal with the question of corporeal resurrection; If I were to state that Jesus Christ merely went into a coma (as the condition is now termed), I fear that I shall open myself to attack, but nonetheless may I be permitted to state that it was this condition which the good lord may have suffered from and since science in those days was somewhat backward.. that it was this which mistaken for corporeal resurrection? Is that not a possibility?

4 December 2006 at 23:48  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

T-Rambalonandon

Have you thought about University Challenge and can you also breathe through your ears? You just sound so knowledgeable.

Before you start with that shit about having a go and not having a point and blah blah blah - just remember that it's that very reason that casued this post.

5 December 2006 at 00:20  
Anonymous bob said...

If we take the gospel accounts of Jesus' crucifixion as accurate then we have a picture of a man being interrogated through the night, followed by being flagellated, followed by carrying the instrument of his punishment (a cross) from the place of his incarceration to the place of his execution, finally followed by being nailed to said cross for three hours, and finally pierced through his side with a lance, then I would find it very heard to believe that he was merely in a coma, given that he would have suffered major blood loss, dehydration and probable asphyxiation.

Colin, I do not agree that all religious belief boils down to an original group of people who were too lazy to work, however, if that is your view of religion then you're entitled to, but I certainly don't share it. I believe in God, I believe in Christ, and being a Catholic, I believe in the dogmas and practices of my Church. I cannot prove the existence of God, but I believe that faith is ultimately beyond proof. If we can prove something faith is unnecessary. Faith is the ultimate act of trust and, in my opinion, for the Christian, the ultimate act of love. You may see it as a fairy tale, but I see it as a life giving reality. But as I said, what you believe or don't believe is your own affair.

5 December 2006 at 00:24  
Anonymous Teri said...

Wasn't there something mentioned about Christ having been giving a coma inducing drug from a snake?

I'm of the Orthodox faith and like Bob I also believe that faith is beyond proof. Well put Bob.

Off topic - is newmania AKA Paulad Newmanistan from iains blog?

5 December 2006 at 00:29  
Anonymous Colin said...

Bob,

I do not agree that all religious belief boils down to an original group of people who were too lazy to work

I wouldn't agree with that either. I just wanted to point out that your proof might be questionable. If you say that it is what you believe, I don't have any objections. However, if people insist they are able to prove it, some questions concerning the nature of the alleged proofs are permitted. After all, we are here at His Grace's blog for the purpose of discussion. If everybody would simply confirm his views, it would quickly become boring. A bit of controversy is the spice on any blog, isn't it.

5 December 2006 at 00:54  
Anonymous Colin said...

Anonym said T-Rambalonandon

Making fun of other's people name might be funny in the beginning. However, endless repetitions of the same joke are at variance with His Grace's demands for intelligence and erudition and a sign for the lack of creativity. Peter Hitchens is a creative genius compared to that poor showing.

5 December 2006 at 01:02  
Anonymous Voyager said...

voyager..
the ideas of reincarnation and resurrection are pretty much the same if one views them from a somewhat philosophical angle..


At least you have identified one large gap in your knowledge

5 December 2006 at 07:23  
Anonymous Voyager said...

Teri said...

Wasn't there something mentioned about Christ having been giving a coma inducing drug from a snake?


You don't seem to certain - perhaps you could do your own research and find out ?

5 December 2006 at 07:25  
Anonymous Colin said...

Voyager,

You critized that At least you have identified one large gap in your knowledge

Currently, the knowledge of mankind is duplicating every two years. Still you don't seem to have any gap in your knowledge. A miracle. How do you do that?

5 December 2006 at 11:34  
Anonymous Voyager said...

Still you don't seem to have any gap in your knowledge. A miracle. How do you do that?

I read..................I recommend it further !

5 December 2006 at 11:37  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

bob+voyager..
I claim to know nothing and the pursuit of knowledge I have heard is a never ending quest..
Now when I said the concepts of reincarnation and resurrection are somewhat similar.. I meant that the essential idea behind them could be viewed as starting anew.. i.e. You begin afresh... Although you are right I admit since under reincarnation your past sins are not just washed away.. but you have to settle them with good deeds.. while corporeal resurrection is bringing back without the sin... also you in the end you said you read.. so do I and so do many others but can you claim to have read every piece of work still in existence... If so I will then accept that there is no gap in you knowledge.. but the essential point being that one cannot conclusively prove that jesus did not actually suffer from a coma since most sources that shoe light upon that incident are biased..

anonymous..
do clarify yourself.. if anything you were a lot more obscure than you accuse me of being..

cranmer..
I see that you choose not to involve yourself in this matter..

faith... much like hope is a merely a feeling.. and hence cannot be proved nor disproved cuz it may take various forms.. but faith is hardly conclusive proof.. it leans towards opinion rather than fact..

5 December 2006 at 12:37  
Blogger Cranmer said...

cranmer..
I see that you choose not to involve yourself in this matter..


Mr Tejus Ramakrishnan,

His Grace is most impressed by your hitherto flawless exercising of your senses of perception. His Grace involves himself in whatever he wishes, and uninvolves himself in similar fashion. A glass of wine inclines him more to the former.

The theologians who contribute to this august blog are more than aware that corporeal resurrection is antithetical to any notion of reincarnation, and the philosophical implications of both are whatever philosophers wish to make of them. The clever theologians will know, however, that corporeal resurrection is not resurrection 'without sin', as you state; indeed, it is for all, in order to be judged, and thereafter the newly-resurrected body meets whichever fate has been decreed for it, or whichever fate it has decided upon, depending on whichever side of the Reformation-predestination fence one sits.

His Grace has never met anyone whose worldview emanates from the Indus Valley who has any remote comprehension of these concepts.

5 December 2006 at 13:40  
Anonymous Tejus Ramakrishnan said...

cramer..
thank you explaining aBout corporeal resurrection more clearly to me for my knowledge on that issue was rather thin I must admit.. But could you please explain to me in further detail this judgement part of the corporeal resurrection? I am most interested..

And do you prefer white wine or red?

5 December 2006 at 13:57  
Anonymous Voyager said...

If so I will then accept that there is no gap in you knowledge.. but the essential point being that one cannot conclusively prove that jesus did not actually suffer from a coma since most sources that shoe light upon that incident are biased..

There is no conclusive proof in religion..........you as a solipsist must surely see how ludicrous such a proposition is. You ask The Infinite to "prove" itself to a literal speck of dust ?

http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/resurrec.htm

This site should help upgrade your knowledge of basic Christian Theology

5 December 2006 at 14:15  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your Grace
You are saying that we are only to be judged upon resurrection does that mean, in your opinion , that after physical death we remain in "limbo" a state of nothingness?

5 December 2006 at 14:35  
Blogger Cranmer said...

Mr Peter Hitchens,

Sheol is of such labyrinthine obfuscation, and its literary development of such theological complexity, that your question may well fall within the bounds of possibility.

Mr Tejus Ramakrishnan,

Red, of course.

5 December 2006 at 17:19  
Anonymous Colin said...

Voyager,

You criticised that At least you have identified one large gap in your knowledge

Currently, the knowledge of mankind is duplicating every two years. Still you don't seem to have any gap in your knowledge. A miracle. How do you do that?

"I read..................

With 50,000 new books and more than 100,000 scientific articles published every year, that's a miracle, indeed.
Congratulations for your ability of speed reading.

Unfortunately, I cannot read fast enough to fill all the gaps in my knowledge. I hope you don't mind that I will ask you from time to time.

5 December 2006 at 17:43  
Anonymous Voyager said...

You are saying that we are only to be judged upon resurrection

You might find Resurrection is in itself part of the judgment

5 December 2006 at 17:44  
Anonymous hidaya said...

You might find Resurrection is in itself part of the judgment

how so?

5 December 2006 at 17:53  
Anonymous Tejus Ramakrishnan said...

cranmer..
If it is merlot or barolo that you like, then I shall most certainly offer you a glass at some point..

5 December 2006 at 20:01  
Anonymous Colin said...

His Grace,

With regard to Tejus 12:37 PM comment, you have to admit that this young man has the courage, wit and intelligence to defend his views, doesn't he.

If the intelligent youth hadn't always questionned the received wisdom, we would all still be hunting in the savannas of Africa as our ancestors have done for 120,000 years of our existence as species. And there wouldn't be any red wine to enjoy. What a pitty!

Voyager,

It is always a joy to see how you are fighting ignorance, e.g. by stating "you as a solipsist must surely see how ludicrous such a proposition is... http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/resurrec.htm. This site should help upgrade your knowledge of basic Christian Theology"

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance." Saint Jerome

This site should help upgrade your knowledge about the historical Jesus: http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/392503787X/ref=pd_rvi_gw_2/028-1779726-0638922

The English translation is available here: Rabbi J. The author was born in India as son of a Christian Missionary, his two brothers are protestant priests, he studied theology, philosophy, psychology, journalism and has written his dissertation at the Lutheran World Federation in Geneva. Dr. Lehmann "demonstrates that from the beginning the Church has distorted the true Jesus Christ. If church and theology really were refering to the historical Jesus, they would have to talk about a man, who - for example - demanded total abandonment of possessions, who was entirely Jewish, and who did not mean a spiritual event with the coming of God's empire but an uprising against the Roman occupation. Instead, they preach about a Christ and a Redeemer of sins as evolved from history and tradition, who was born as God's son, resurrected and ascended to Heaven - the historical Jesus would not recognize himself in a single of these messages."

The book has 45 pages of references to the original scientific articles. Reading the original literature in order to fill your knowledge gaps will keep you busy for a year or two.

5 December 2006 at 20:37  
Blogger Cranmer said...

With regard to Tejus 12:37 PM comment, you have to admit that this young man has the courage, wit and intelligence to defend his views, doesn't he.

Mr Colin,

Indeed, indeed, which is why his manifest intelligence and evident erudition are welcome to His Grace's august blog. There has always been a breadth of spiritual comprehension to descendents of and adherents to the religion of the Indus Valley.

His Grace regrets that he is unable to partake of red wine with anyone, principally owing to his presently disembodied state.

5 December 2006 at 20:47  
Anonymous Tejus Ramakrishnan said...

colin..
thank you.. I merely seek to enrich myself through the pursuit of knowledge..

cranmer..
why, of course, I meant we shall partake the wine when I shall join you temporarily in the after life, since my religion demands that i be reborn :)

5 December 2006 at 21:14  
Anonymous Colin said...

Tejus,

It is more important to thank His Grace because he is most generous to you. It is rather rare that His Grace's diagnosis is: "manifest intelligence and evident erudition". Try to not disappoint him in the future.

5 December 2006 at 21:50  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sheol is of such labyrinthine obfuscation, and its literary development of such theological complexity, that your question may well fall within the bounds of possibility.
Surely your own current state of conscious non corporeal existence proves that the concept of "Limbo" is in fact total bollocks?

5 December 2006 at 23:01  
Anonymous Voyager said...

The English translation is available here Ich ziehe vor solche Sachen auf Deutsch zu lesen. Danke.

Yes, Herr Lehmann has written a book based on The Essenes..........only one unfamiliar with the subject would raise the matter of this Sect as you have done Colin. There is a perfectly adequate book of the Dead Sea Scrolls edited by Geza Vermes which is the essence of this book you reference, itself predicated on a 1968 transmission by SDR of a programme with the same title.

Perhaps you should read some of the works by my acquaintance Carsten Peter Thiede ?

Thiede

The Quest for the True Cross (Paperback)
by Carsten Peter Thiede (Author), Matthew D'Ancona (Author)
(4 customer reviews)


The Emmaus Mystery: Discovering Evidence for the Risen Christ (Hardcover)
by Carsten Peter Thiede (Author), Matthew D'Ancona (Author)

The Cosmopolitan World of Jesus (Paperback)
by Carsten Peter Thiede (Author)

The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Jewish Origins of Christianity (Palgrave) (Hardcover)
by Carsten Peter Thiede (Author)

6 December 2006 at 07:30  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Surely your own current state of conscious non corporeal existence proves that the concept of "Limbo" is in fact total bollocks?

You too as a Peter Hitchens impostor exist only in electronic form...........there is no reason for His Grace to be corporeal when you yourself are not.

6 December 2006 at 07:33  
Anonymous Voyager said...

hidaya said...

You might find Resurrection is in itself part of the judgment

how so?

5:53 PM



http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Jesus_Resurrection.htm

6 December 2006 at 07:38  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anon&:33
I am no "impostor" Iam "peter Hitchens" just as you are anonymous and his grace is his grace.

6 December 2006 at 10:32  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Time methinks for Islamic Bookshops to ban the Koran

6 December 2006 at 16:13  
Anonymous Colin said...

Voyager,

Thank you for refering me to your friend Thiede. His theory is based on very uncertain foundations, namely on his own earlier dating of two small pieces of papyrus which has not yet been accepted by the scientists working in the field. You can look it up in the German Wikipedia. Alternatively you might want to read another article about his "discoveries". Here part of it :


"Thiede originally proposed his redating of Papyrus 64 in the technical German academic journal Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigrafik 105 (1995) pp. 13-20. A subsequent issue of the same journal (vol. 107 (1995) pp. 73-80) carried an article by Klaus Wachtel of the Institute for New Testament Textual Research in Münster (which is the main registry for these texts) where he successfully demolished Thiede's reasons for redating Papyrus 64 (and by extension Papyrus 67) as 1st. century. An even more devastating piece against Thiede appeared in the same journal in 1996 (issue 113 pp. 153-7) written by H. Vocke. And there the matter should have rested.

But Thiede is a great publicist. A few years earlier he had tried to capture a popular market with a book that resurrected a theory which said that some of the very fragmentary Greek texts found at Qumran (the site of the discovery of the main Dead Sea Scrolls) were from New Testament texts: one in particular, known as 7Q5, was said to be part of Mark's gospel. The appearance of Christian texts in Qumran would be remarkable enough among the literary remains of a exclusive Jewish sect; the presence of a bit of Mark amid the remains of this library, apparently deposited there before 68 A.D. (that is, within a few years of the likely date of composition of this gospel), would be even more incredible. However, the identification of 7Q5 with verses from Mark is highly questionable as are other proposed identifications of these minute fragments with other New Testament texts. Thiede, though, accepts those identifications, and hence builds much about the history of Christian links with Qumran on a slender and highly controversial basis. His methodology is the same with the so-called Jesus papyrus: grand theories rest on uncertain foundations. "


"The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views...which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering." Dr. Who , e.g. a political incorrect heretic.

7 December 2006 at 00:08  
Anonymous Voyager said...

to your friend Thiede.

No. I used the word acquaintance advisedly since we did not know each other well enough to be friends.

As for your reference - that is simply academic peer review which neither validates nor invalidates in itself, but produces discourse. The remarkable thing is that Christian academics can look at documentary fragments and archaelogy............whereas Islam destroyed all known versions of The Koran apart from the official version deemed Immutable which gives them their claim to Absolute veracity.

I frankly prefer the detective work the late-Thiede undertook and to read refutation of his theories

7 December 2006 at 05:51  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

From: A Christian Perspective on Islam, by Dr Patrick Sookhdeo

"At the core of Islamic theology is the central belief that God is a single unassailable entity, and that to think of him as having multiple natures, or to ‘ascribe partners to him’, is deeply blasphemous. The Qur’an says that, “God forgiveth not that partners should be set up with him … to set up partners with God is to devise a sin most heinous indeed” (Q. 4:48). This view of God obviously differs sharply from the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. The Christian belief in God as Father, Holy Spirit, and, most of all, Son, is the most basic and fundamental difference between Christian and Islamic theology. The consequence of this key difference in doctrine is that in Islam man’s relationship to God is fundamentally one of submission, whilst Christianity teaches that our relationship with God is one of love. This affects the way Islam and Christianity operate in the world. The dealings of the former are primarily about submission to Islam and Allah’s will, whilst the latter’s actions are informed by love and forgiveness." http://www.barnabasfund.org/archivenews/article.php?ID_news_items=7

19 December 2006 at 04:10  

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