Tuesday, January 29, 2008

Anglican Muslims?

Cranmer's communicant 'Grumpy Old Catholic' has emailed him a letter from The Daily Telegraph on the topic of the application in Oxford to sound the Call to Prayer:

Sir - Derek Bhowmick-Shepherd writes to express his anxiety about the call to prayers at Oxford's central mosque disturbing the sleep patterns of local people (Letters, January 16).

The proposal put to the city council asked for permission for a call to take place no more than once a week at the time of Friday prayers (1.30pm) and the range of the amplified call would not be nearly as far as feared.

The example from another part of the world of an authorised radio frequency on which broadcast reminders to congregational members of their prayer-times is already used in part by at least two of east Oxford's five mosques.

But what a gain to the local culture it would be to make the minaret operational and have this once-a-week, two-minute reminder in classical Arabic of divine greatness.

The main issue is whether the right to call for prayer exercised by Christian churches can be extended to another faith community. With clear guidelines on noise pollution, such a move would be nothing less than an expression of mature, vibrant society.

Many other cities in Britain and throughout the world make provision for different calls to prayer to exist alongside each other.

What's so different and difficult about Oxford

Canon David Partridge, Central Mosque, Oxford

It was bad enough when the Bishop of Oxford came down in support of the mosque, but what is even more interesting is that Canon David Partridge, a retired Anglican vicar, gives his actual address as being Oxford's Central Mosque.

Cranmer was wondering why none of Oxford's 'interfaith' Muslim leaders give their address as Christ Church.

Perhaps there is no better riposte than that made by Lord Tebbit in The Spectator:

Sir: Charles Moore (The Spectator’s Notes, 12 January) contemplated the banning of church bells in Oxford by politically correct cowards unwilling to turn down the application for the use of artificially augmented calls to prayer from the mosque.

I cannot understand what all the fuss is about. There is nothing in the Koran about the use of loudspeakers. There is nothing to prevent imams from competing with the noise of traffic and calling their prayers as imams did for many centuries. Of course, I would hope that the city authorities would indicate, as they turn down the applications for loudspeakers, that they would be likely to grant an application for bells to be rung from the mosque.

Rt Hon. Lord Tebbit CH
House of Lords, London SW1

Quite so, quite so.


Anonymous didactophobe said...

Well said, Lord Tebbit. Although, of course, there is no need for bells to be rung from the mosque, either.

The Muslim tradition is for the muezzin to stand in the minaret and issue the call to prayer from there. I have no problem with that. If, as David Partridge says, the range of the call would be less than initially planned, it surely defeats the purpose of having it broadcast by loudspeaker.

The whole proposal has nothing to do with calling the faithful to prayer and everything to do with attacking and undermining the Christian traditions of this country with the ultimate goal being the Islamisation of Britain.

Michael Nazir-Ali is a bishop who knows what he is talking about with regard to Christian-Islamic relations. He opposes the use of loudspeakers in mosques and that is good enough for me.

29 January 2008 at 07:54  
Blogger Jock Coats said...

A storm in the ubiquitous tea-cup.

Here's something closer to the real story. As I understand it (and I know both the characters so I would not doubt it personally!

29 January 2008 at 09:23  
Anonymous najistani said...

Your Grace, the use of the 'call to prayer' (which is actually an assertion of the Death-Cult's deluded faith in their loathsome pedophile) as an aggressive 'in yer face' affront to surrounding believers in less confrontational faiths, is not limited to just offending Christians...

“Allahu Akbar”! The tinny P.A. system tore asunder the pre-dawn peace and quiet.

I was jolted in my mind, almost like experiencing a car wreck, suddenly and without any warning. This totally incongruous sound intruded upon and encompassed everything, causing even the birds to rustle in the darkness.

It was just after 4 a.m. I was seated underneath the holy Maha Bodhi Tree in Bodh Gaya, in the state of Bihar in India. It was a few days past the full moon of May 2004, a few days past Veesak. This was my second visit to this unparalleled location, the site of the Lord Buddha’s attainment of full Enlightenment over 2,500 years ago. Now, towards the end of my 10 day stay, I had applied for and been granted the great honor of permission to spend the night within the Maha Bodhi compound...

The mussein’s call to prayer for the faithful of Islam, here in this most sacred location to all of Buddhism, ripped me back to modern reality. I was stunned! How could this be? Here in one of the most significant spots of Buddhism, loud speakers come on at four in the morning every day, to shock and intrude upon meditators and Buddhist practitioners using this spot for that which it has to offer in its most special way?

The Muslim call to prayer seemed to go on and on…..20 minutes to a half-hour later, the scratchy recording thankfully ended and quiet returned."

From http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=%7B7FADB733-E103-4493-9216-28C2B668DD29%7D

29 January 2008 at 09:58  
Anonymous nedsherry said...

Muslims privately (and rightly) view "Christians" like that with contempt, though they're more than happy to take advantage of them. But the same decadence that produced collaborationists like the Bishop of Oxford and Canon David Partridge produced Holocaust Memorial Day. Christians should advance the interests of Christians, not the interests of Muslims or Jews, both of whom remain, now as ever, implacably hostile to Christianity.

29 January 2008 at 12:06  
Blogger dizzyfatplonka said...

If it must go ahead at all requisting it be done in English should suffice.

The Mosque could then pay for pamphletes to be printed translating what is being said into all other languages to be read by those who do not understand English, as the Council does for them!

29 January 2008 at 13:18  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

G'bye, England. It was nice knowin ya.

29 January 2008 at 13:48  
Blogger ultramontane grumpy old catholic said...

I had a look at Jock Coat's link, which reports that only two people signed the petition, namely the Imam and the Canon.

It may look like a storm in a teacup, but it would not be the first time a small - even miniscule - pressure group tried it on. From earlier correspondance in the National press, there has been great distress to many in the area when they learned what had happened. If it's a joke, it's a very bad one.

If the protests had been muted, with the general tendency for cultural cringe, who knows - the dynamic duo might have succeed.

Hopefully now this affair is out in the open, sense will prevail. I do hope that the good people of Oxford are sending their protest letters to the local council.

Keeping quiet is not an option

29 January 2008 at 15:04  
Blogger Jock Coats said...

The point is most people haven't "learned what happened" they've learnt from the hype in the national press. If the council receives any petition, however small, it has to report the issue to the area committee concerned and people (ie local rag) took away from that meeting that there had been some official request for the call to prayer, which there hadn't. It was just two clergymen neither of whom it seems had consulted anyone else, one Christian (whose initial idea it was) and one Muslim (who certainly hadn't consulted any of his prominent members if anyone), who thought it would be a jolly wheeze.

I don't detect frankly that it has upset terribly many people in the area concerned. I do see that it has clearly incensed people who have no knowledge of the facts surrounding it and are just being reactionary on the basis of a misreported story in a local rag resulting from a stupid petition from those two people. These twitterers should be embarrassed to have got their knockers in such a twist.

Oh, and it's "Coats" plural, therefore "Coats's" possessive.

29 January 2008 at 15:38  
Blogger Jock Coats said...

Oops - knickers, of course!

29 January 2008 at 15:39  
Anonymous irenelancaster said...

Dear nedsherry, not only am I terribly pro Christian, especially since the Archbishop of Canterbury's excellent interview regarding the Churches' role in the Holocaust and the 'barbarity' of certain Muslim approaches to the Koran, but I'm coming back to your fair isle (and mine) in a few days and shall be staying a whole month.

During that time, I'll be addressing various Christian groups, in church halls and other venues, including branches of the Council of Christians and Jews.

Won't that be fun! I honestly can't wait, nor to see dear old England again. I do miss it quite a lot, you know.

29 January 2008 at 16:05  
Anonymous hear o israel said...

i take it mr jock coats has no faith of any kind.

the muslim faith is quite different from christianity , it does not treat christaianity as its equal , more importantly it has little time for those in its states that do not follow it .
i can see mr coats that you were a visitor to the country a tourist if you will . had you decided to take up residence in that country , you might have seen it from a very different perspective , then i would want to know if you were forced to speak , wether releative rhetoric was as permissable as you seem to think at the moment.

i suggest you take a look at what is happening in denmark , and see if you still think it is harmeless!!

29 January 2008 at 16:08  
Blogger Newmania said...


29 January 2008 at 16:47  
Blogger Jock Coats said...

I don't understand, "hear o israel'?

A. I'm Catholic, b. we're talking about Oxford aren't we? wherein I have been resident for many years, in which time I have known many Muslims and glad to count many as friends.

I imagine it's pretty difficult being a non-Christian is certain fundamentalist parts of our "best ally" too. Doesn't mean all Christians are inhospitable bigotted weirdos does it?

29 January 2008 at 16:49  
Anonymous Bemused of Birmingham said...

What kind of foolishness is it when folk of one faction support rousing calls from another faction whose founder broke the 10 core rules of their, the first,faction. Can Man U. supporters welcome accoustic taunts being broadcast by Man C. supporters, or worse? Where is it going to end, I hear me cry!

29 January 2008 at 17:01  
Anonymous mary tudor said...

irene lancaster said...

I'm coming back to your fair isle (and mine) in a few days and shall be staying a whole month.

time for an extended overseas holiday, My Majesty thinks.

29 January 2008 at 17:46  
Anonymous nedsherry said...

Dear nedsherry, not only am I terribly pro Christian,

Apart from thinking it tried for 2000 years to exterminate the Jews, supporting the mass immigration by non-Christians that is guaranteed to weaken Christianity in the UK and US, promoting Holocaustianity, which is intended to be our new state religion, etc.

especially since the Archbishop of Canterbury's excellent interview regarding the Churches' role in the Holocaust

They're guilty too, I assume, and should obey Jewish orders from now on.

and the 'barbarity' of certain Muslim approaches to the Koran,

I don't know of any Muslim approaches to the Koran that aren't barbarous, except the liberal ones among a tiny minority. And what about the barbarity of certain Jewish approaches to the Torah?

29 January 2008 at 17:54  
Blogger haddock said...

"Oh, and it's "Coats" plural, therefore "Coats's" possessive."
If you were speaking it perhaps.... but if writing it...it is Coats'

29 January 2008 at 18:00  
Blogger Jock Coats said...

Okay - I'll grant you that, but never "Coat's" :)

29 January 2008 at 18:28  
Anonymous hear o israel said...

ok jock coats
you are a catholic??
is jesus christ your saviour ??

if he his then how does allah fit in , we have son of god , islam has prophet , indeed son of god is blasphemous to them as far as i know.

i suggest you ask how many muslims would attend your sunday mass , without feeling they had commited a sin , i take it you are baptised so you can take communion.

do you not see in your rush to not declare one faith as the way, the truth and the light, you only serve to cover knowledge with ignorance .

29 January 2008 at 19:02  
Anonymous Cinnamon said...

I dimly remember that the planning application of that very mosque was granted on the condition that no call to prayer would ever be broadcast.

So why is it an issue all of a sudden?

Cinnamon, who is considering to start the Holy Church of Heavy Metal with a biggest PA system ever on the roof, rocking you all (including your house foundations) with the mega riff ordering you to prayer (or else!) and the prolonged primal scream of a young sexy & hairy male to celebrate the dawn of the new day.

29 January 2008 at 19:58  
Blogger Jock Coats said...

It's not an issue. Two worthies thought they would ask (when one of them - the Christian one - discovered that it was a planning condition indeed and decided that was just not cricket). Two bishops blew it all out of proportion, and everyone else has joined a great big bandwagon.

In fact, when it - and the Islamic Centre - got planning consent - I was on planning committee at the time I think for both - we were also assured that whatever the British council of mosques is had an agreement that they would not have a call to prayer in British cities. That bit has changed hasn't it - theyhave it in Bradford don't they, at least?

29 January 2008 at 20:18  
Blogger Jock Coats said...

Hear O Israel...

Maybe my faith is strong enough not to be put off by someone else's eh? Ever think of it that way? It's certainly strong enough to stand being impugned by unknowns in blog comments without feeling the need to defend it.

29 January 2008 at 20:24  
Blogger ultramontane grumpy old catholic said...

I apologise for putting your apostophe in the wrong place Jock!

Pax tecum

29 January 2008 at 22:13  
Anonymous hear o israel said...

then please carry on not defending your faith .

a very interesting theological position wouldnt you say.

so am i weaker for wishing to defend my christian above others??

29 January 2008 at 23:31  
Blogger Jock Coats said...

It's not a theological position at all - just a principled one that I am not prepared to justify myself to some anonymous pixelated net-junkie in a discussion about how lots of people have got themselves into a right religious lather about something that basically didn't happen.

But hey, why let the truth of the story spoil a good national rant at the poor deluded Muslims and their evil plans for taking over Britain.

29 January 2008 at 23:40  
Anonymous DocBud said...

"But hey, why let the truth of the story spoil a good national rant at the poor deluded Muslims and their evil plans for taking over Britain."

But hey, why not paint people who oppose you as bigots, that saves having to enter into debate?

Having said that, I'd have thought it was fairly common cause That Muslims are deluded, no rational person could believe that Mohammed was anything other than a charlatan who wrote the Koran in order to cement his political control over his followers.

There are Muslim clerics who believe that Islam will takeover Europe:

And there are Western authorities who support Muslims in trying to suppress free speech, even when it is the same Muslim cleric who is being quoted:


The issue is not about bigots v poor, victimised muslims, although portraying it as such is a deliberate ploy to obfuscate the issue, the real issue is the battle of ideas between The Enlightenment values of the West, and those who seek to give religions influence in the governance of society and to take away peoples' freedoms because they might offend others.

30 January 2008 at 01:03  
Blogger Jock Coats said...

The point is this whole story has been blown up out of all proportion - in whose interests I wouldn't like to speculate? But those keeping it alive by repeating what really amounts to a pack of falsehoods are only demonstrating their own lack of objectivity IMO.

As a Catholic I don't seek or want there to be religious influence in any sphere of governance. There's been far too much of that in this country aimed against people of my own denomination over the centuries. We were of course once going to take over the country and install a foreign prince complete with barbaric practices and blasphemous beliefs, according to the establishment view.

30 January 2008 at 01:28  
Anonymous hear o israel said...

i rest my case jock coats , you are not a catholic as you want a secular state .

mind you throws up the more interesting question of how would you like to live in islamic state , would you protest?? or would you want them to make a secular state.

as your msulim friends if they would prefer the uk as christain state or as a msulim state with sharia law , that should be the litmus test!!

as for being a pixelated anonymous , what proof do you have that you are not , you see on here you could be anyone even with a picture

30 January 2008 at 07:17  
Blogger Jock Coats said...

How very dare you! That'll be for my confessor to decide. Not you. End of. Sheesh.

30 January 2008 at 08:05  
Anonymous najistani said...

Update on this story at:

30 January 2008 at 09:25  
Anonymous DocBud said...

"you are not a catholic as you want a secular state"

Whoa, that's pretty strong (and wrong). Can there, or should there, be such as a thing as a Christian nation? Should Christians compel whole populations to behave as they think they should, or should they be seeking to save individuals, bringing people voluntarily to salvation?

30 January 2008 at 10:35  
Blogger Not a sheep said...

From Islam online comes this explanation of the call to prayer:

"The adhan is the call given to announce that it is time for a particular obligatory Salah (ritual Prayer). Five times a day the adhan is raised from mosques throughout the world. It is a Sunnah (optional duty) that brings its own reward from Allah (God). The person who gives the adhan is called a muadhdhin. (The English word “muezzin” is a mispronunciation of the Arabic term.)

The adhan begins with an affirmation of the supremacy of Allah (God). Then comes the shahadah (profession of faith), which consists of the profession of the Unity of Allah (God), the negation of shirk (polytheism), and the confirmation that Muhammad (peace and blessings be on him) is the Messenger of Allah (God). And after that, comes the call to the Prayer and to success — our eternal home in Paradise — which also implies our return to the Creator. Each line is repeated for emphasis.

Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar.

Allah is the Greatest, Allah is the Greatest.

Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar.

Allah is the Greatest, Allah is the Greatest.

Ash-hadu alla ilaha illa-llah.

I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship but Allah.

Ash-hadu alla ilaha illa-llah.

I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship but Allah.

Ash-hadu anna Muhammadar-Rasulullah.

I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah

Ash-hadu anna Muhammadar-Rasulullah.

I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah

Hayya ‘ala-s-Salah, hayya ‘ala-s-Salah.

Hasten to the Prayer, hasten to the Prayer.

Hayya ‘ala-l-falah, hayya ‘ala-l-falah.

Hasten to real success, hasten to real success

Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar.

Allah is the Greatest, Allah is the Greatest.

La ilaha illa-llah

There is none worthy of worship but Allah.

In the adhan for the Subh (Dawn) Prayer (also commonly called the Fajr Prayer), the following words are added after Hayya ‘ala-l-falah:

As-Salatu khairun min an-naum, As-Salatu khairun min an-naum.

Prayer is better than sleep, Prayer is better than sleep.

The Sunnah (practice of the Prophet) recommends that while the adhan is being called, one should listen attentively and repeat it silently after the muadhdhin, but when he says “Hayya ‘ala-s-Salah” and “Hayya ‘ala-l-falah” one should say:

La hawla wa la quwwata illa billah.

There is no might or power except with Allah. "

I think it is clear that the Muslim call to prayer is not the equivalent of a church ringing bells on a Sunday morning, it is a statement of superiority of Islam over any other religion and of Allah over any other deity.

31 January 2008 at 08:49  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

hello everybody, i think it's a late reply but just now "by coincidence" i saw this article, just one thing to mention, i'm very sorry "as a human away from religions" to read all of that, because this approve the fact that the conflicts came not from the religions themselves but from the people who believe in these religions, and all what we all suffering of violence and "your term (barbarity)" in world is a very clear example of that, for me, i think very well about every word i want to say before i talk it because every one is responsible of his words and how this words will effect others, so it's strange thing how could you all say that, i'm muslim and i respect other religions as much as i respect my religion because all religions "i mean religions that came with a prophet from god, Judism, Christianity & Islam." call for the same principles; believing and glorifying god, live in peace and harmony, hold our morals, love and help each others. and this is the summary away from the details of every religion because details is not important the important is the goal and we all have the same goal, believe in god to get the acceptance of him, and live our lives away from sins that darkening our lives and harm us as a result. so why all this talk which look like a hidden call to deny the "other" and add more violence and hate in your hearts and in the other religions hearts, i'm not a terrorist nor my religion, and your religion is not a terrorist religion, but the really terrorism is what is happening, all that call to stop other people from doing their call for prayer which is a a part of their religion, i want to ask one thing and want a frank answer; if someday one of you traveled to another country which mainly have another religion and when you went to church you heard people saying that "why not stop ringing the bells in sundays?" what will you feel? or what feel will first came to your heart about that people "and that country may be, if you were from the type who judge people the same time", how will you feel the sunday if there is no bells ring in the church? there are many people have been change their minds about a whole religion because of a behavior of a small number of people of that religion, the same thing is what we see nowadays, these "simple comments that represent a freedom of thinking as many people think" is used by extremists from all religions to gain support to fight other religions, and this is happening in all religion not just in isalm, but islam was the most effected because of 9/11, there is also many people killed in europe and america in the name of christianity. so why all these people are being killed yesterday and today in the name of religions that are calling for peace and love, didn't asked yourself why? and the answer is very simple and it's crystal clear... because of the gaps between people from different religions and that led to misunderstanding of the "other" and that misunderstanding started to be explained in many ways by many extremists people to cheat other people from the same religion to get support or be involved in violence against other religions in the name of god, did god call for that violence and terror?, is this the message of god that came with moses and jesus and mohammad "god bless them all"? sorry for the long comment but it's shame on me if i came across the article and don't say what we all should do, we should deal with things wisely so not to hurt other or be a reason "even if we didn't want to" to add more hatred to this world, the world have enough hatred to destroy all the universe so it's enough, why not to call for peace and love, and respect others because we are all from the same parents "adam and eve god bless them" why taking this U turn away from our humanity and goal in this short short life? wondering if someone will understand someday... well if anyone wants to know about my religion i will be happy to answer his questions my email is am84iq@yahoo.com

26 March 2009 at 23:45  

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