Thursday, January 10, 2008

‘Does Israel have a right to exist?’

‘This House Believes That The State of Israel has a Right to Exist’ is the motion due to be debated by the Oxford Union, and follows some other rather distinctly anti-Israel and anti-Jewish debates featuring the likes of David Irving and certain members of the BNP.

Cranmer would like the Oxford Union to consider a few topics for debate which might counterbalance its present obsession. How about:

Does Palestine have a right to exist?

Did Abraham choose Ishmael?

Was Mohammed a prophet?

Is ‘Islam’ really a religion of peace?

Communicants may care to suggest a few of their own.

They won’t take place, of course, because they are ‘racist’, while perpetual criticism of Israel and the Jews is not...

49 Comments:

Anonymous mickey said...

Your Grace, what about 'This House Believes that a Single Democratic State of Israel-Palestine has a Right to Exist'? That would certainly bring the house down!

10 January 2008 at 08:44  
Blogger AethelBald, King of Wessex said...

If states are Darwinian entities then it is absurd to suggest that any state has the right to exist. Framed this way, Britain does not have the right to exist and, just like the Kingdom of Wessex, it will surely one day become extinct.

So, what does the question 'Does Israel have a right to exist' actually ask? In my opinion it asks, at least in part and somewhat turned about, 'Should Israel be shunned'.

My answer is that Israel is a colonial disaster zone for which we share the guilt. We have already sowed the wind. Should we now fertilize the wind?

Israel should be shunned.

10 January 2008 at 08:54  
Anonymous mary tudor said...

Two very good responses. Of course Israel doesn't have a right to exist. The question is absurd. Peoples have a right to exist, not states.The necessary but impossible solution goes something like this:

1. An end to naqba denial and a recognition that the Palestinian refugees of 1948 were what we now call ethnically cleansed. It therefore follows that all are entitled to compensation and those (including descendants) who wish to return should be allowed to do so. This is a matter of elementary justice (as well as the small matter of UN resolutions).

2. A recognition that the Zionist project has brought disaster on historic Palestine and the whole region and should be abandoned. The small green shoots of post-Zionism among the Israeli Jewish population should be nurtured.

3. The state (and I couldn't care less what it is called) should be a state of its citizens with equal rights for all. This is the usual arrangement; a step back is required to see just how aberrant Israel is as presently constituted.

I wait for the shrieks of rage from the Israel lobby. Sorry, but the game is up. Some of the brighter Zionists have suddenly discovered a emse of urgency as regards the 'two state solution' as they realise that the alternative is a civil rights type struggle encompassing the whole of historic Palestine. Too late plus the demilitarised bantustan cum holding pen conception of the Palestinian 'state' has no chance of being accepted as a permanent solution by the Palestinian population. Nor should they.

One state solution - bring it on! :D

10 January 2008 at 10:48  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I see that Mary Tudor is still as twisted and bitter as ever, and hasn't mellowed with age. Actually the state of Israel is a state of citizens with equal rights for all. There are many Muslims living in Israel who are happy to do so and have receieved a good education and have proceeded to have good careers. I have met these people who say they have much to thank the state of Israel for. There's not much freedom in Israel's neighbouring Muslim countries, nor are there the same prospects for minorities there. Mary Tudor should go and live with her pals in Gaza and see how long she keeps her head!! Has she ever even been to Israel herself?

10 January 2008 at 11:37  
Anonymous mary tudor said...

anonymous said...

Has she ever even been to Israel herself?

No but I have been to Palestinian refugee camps and if they are the price of the Zionist project then that price is too high.

'Nuff said

10 January 2008 at 11:44  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Doesn't take much for the racists and Jew haters to bring out their pathetic and hypocritical excuses for the destruction of the only small piece of this planet that is a Jewish state does it. Oh how they must all long for a return to the good old days of the holocaust when Jews knew their place and were grateful for the free Zyklon B.

Your efforts would be a good deal better aimed at the real threat to OUR way of life and freedoms represented by the never ceasing demands of the Islamic lobby and their attempts at land grabs in our own country, not to mention the genuine aggression and violence done to truly innocent people by Muslims all around the world.

10 January 2008 at 11:46  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh and Mary Tudor, who hasn't been any nearer to a refugee camp than seeing the faked BBC coverage of them. Those camps could and would have been history decades ago if it wasn't for the determination of their Arab and Muslim "brothers" to keep the "refugees" in as deliberately as bad a condition as possible solely to create a false narrative of "Palestinian" victimhood.

The Palestinians and their "problem" and most of all their supposed victimhood at the hands of the evil Jews are the greatest Big Lie of our generation perpetuated purely and solely in the cause of creating and sustaining Jew hatred..

10 January 2008 at 11:55  
Anonymous irenelancaster said...

Thank you Anonymous. Posters may be interested to learn that I visit Haifa University in Israel at least twice a week.

I am currently sitting in on Latin classes taken in Hebrew by a friend of mine who originally comes from Wales.

The class consists of about 20 people, of whom about 5 are Arabs of various religions (some coming from nearby Nazareth), five people originally stemming from the Soviet Union, three 'Anglos' like me, one or two people of French origin and an Argentinian.

There is no differentiation made between people. They all mix together and sit with each other, which never happened at Manchester University, where I taught not so long ago.

On the bus to and from the university (four stops from my home), Arabs are treated if anything with more respect than other Israelis - often being offered the seats in the front which are generally designated for the elderly and infirm.

Many Arabs are Heads of Department and Deans of Faculty. The Head of the Arab-Jewish Center, a Muslim, has said that he would like to work with me on various projects if possible. I could go on and on ....

Contrast this with the situation in the West Bank and Gaza where women particularly are under siege and not allowed to fulfil their potential, because of the theocratic nature of Hamas, not to mention their charter, recently reconfirmed, that their aim is to wipe out the Jewish people and the State of Israel. This would include Israel's 1.2 million Arab citizens, or 20% of the total 7.2 million inhabitants.

Israel is a Jewish and democratic State. This means that it lives by Jewish values, as laid down in the Bible, and developed over 2000 years in diaspora.

This therefore includes and emphasizes full rights for all minorities, whatever their race, ethnic origin, colour, creed, or religion.

A disgruntled academic from Haifa University, whose student had been inaccurate in part of their dissertation, which had not been checked sufficiently by said academic, then leaves Haifa U for Exeter University, not known for its sympathetic attitude towards Jews, and will be speaking against the right of the State of Israel to exist. Does he maybe have a personal axe to grind, do you think?

Interestingly, his twin brother does not agree with him, it seems, as he is Haifa's German Consul.

Sounds very much like a well-known Bible story to me.

For more on this country and how it works - WARTS AND ALL, please access here:

http://irenelancaster.typepad.com/

Thank you, Archbishop, for posting this blog.

10 January 2008 at 11:56  
Anonymous mary tudor said...

Like I said...

I wait for the shrieks of rage from the Israel lobby.

They're all coming out if the woodwork now with the usual stuff...

49 minutes for non-Jews are equal in Israel (yeah - sure)

58 minutes for racist and Jew hater (two word response - second word 'off')

1 hour 7 minutes for 'Oh and Mary Tudor, who hasn't been any nearer to a refugee camp than seeing the faked BBC coverage of them'.

For what it's worth, oh yes I did. It was many years ago and sometime later Sharon's phalangist creatures also came to visit the same camps. You may recall the result. Or was that 'faked' too? The reference to 'faked BBC coverage' amazes me. Don't holocaust deniers claim that photos of the gas chambers were faked? Hmmmm....

And at the same time the blame-shifting 'the refugee camps are all the arab states' fault' card gets played. What kept you?

Then with total inevitability we have Irene Lancaster with a smear against Ilan Pappe.

It's all so predictable. Time to go and do something sensible instead of arguing with defenders of the indefensible...

10 January 2008 at 12:15  
Anonymous mickey said...

Anonymous and Irene,

But can you not see the situation from the perspective of the indigenous people?

Your country is swamped by immigrants with a religious mission who claim (often quite rightly) to be persecuted in their homelands. They then set about displacing the local people. They introduce a new language and new laws. Sound familiar? I could go on, but I think the parallel is clear.

There are many in Israel who believe in 'Greater Israel'. Well how different would that be to a single democratic State named 'Israel-Palestine'?

10 January 2008 at 12:16  
Blogger Unsworth said...

Why does any State have a 'Right' to exist? And is the proposition that somehow Israel has more of a right to exist than any other? How does Dr Lancaster feel about Finland's 'right to exist', or Saudi Arabia for that matter?

10 January 2008 at 13:03  
Anonymous livsey said...

Two comments for anonymous...

'Oh how they must all long for a return to the good old days of the holocaust when Jews knew their place and were grateful for the free Zyklon B'.

That's disgusting. can't you join in a debate without posting stuff like that?

'Your efforts would be a good deal better aimed at the real threat to OUR way of life and freedoms represented by the never ceasing demands of the Islamic lobby and their attempts at land grabs in our own country, not to mention the genuine aggression and violence done to truly innocent people by Muslims all around the world'.

Would you describe yourself as a Muslim hater?

10 January 2008 at 13:05  
Anonymous irenelancaster said...

The indigenous inhabitants of Israel were Jews.

Arabic is recognized as one of Israel's two main languages.

In Haifa everything is written in Hebrew, Arabic and Russian. There is very little English, as most Jewish immigrants in the last few years have been from Russia.

I have discussed some of the points made above with various Arabs and they really don't understand what the fuss is about.

Like most people they want to get on in life, raise their families and live in peace.

And they do wish that some critics would visit here instead of ranting on about a non-existent situation which is a figment of people's imaginations.

10 January 2008 at 13:52  
Anonymous Giles said...

"But can you not see the situation from the perspective of the indigenous people?"

I assume by "indigenous people" you are referring to the Jews, who have inhabited the area from the time of the Pharoahs (you are aware of the Old Testament, I assume?).

10 January 2008 at 13:54  
Anonymous harry horton said...

irene lancaster said...

I have discussed some of the points made above with various Arabs and they really don't understand what the fuss is about.

Irene Lancaster's stage army of contented arabs reminds me of the blacks apartheid propogandists used to wheel out to be patted on the head as they explained how much fun they were having under that nice Dr Vorster

10 January 2008 at 14:07  
Anonymous mickey said...

Irene and Giles,

"It's a wise child that knows its own father", as the saying goes.

The Jews who left Israel 2,000 years ago no doubt spread their genes far and wide. Grief, even the Welsh claim to be a lost tribe!

10 January 2008 at 14:21  
Blogger rr25 said...

Does England have a right to exist?

Now there would be a really interesting debate.

Incidentally Mickey (I hope unintentionally) has just posted an argument in favour of rocket attacks on Birmingham by the indigenous inhabitants of Warwickshire.

10 January 2008 at 14:37  
Anonymous hear o israel said...

the jewish religion seems to be declining however the idea of being jewish isnt.
there are no new synagogs opening up .

in bethlehem the christians who have inhabited that country since jesus feel under seige from the forcefullness of certain palestian crime groups , because that is what they are (ask alan johnson).

while ever islam wants to rule it will not live lion with lamb, it is not "the" religion and its mullas do not seem to discuss it very well / true there are commomalities and we can respect those, but if the muslim faith is so great where are its great scholars , it throws up osamas, al zudwhyhai and does not challenge them .

if they want to be a religion of peace they should see if the quoran stands

10 January 2008 at 14:38  
Anonymous irenelancaster said...

Some of these posts are beginning to make me think that apartheid might not have existed either. The Arabs that have been 'trotted out' happen to be those I meet on a daily basis at university, at the medical centre, on the bus, and in the shops.

They know I'm English. Many don't know I'm Jewish. They hold a variety of opinions on various matters. By that I mean they would all vote for various parties. Some are religious and some not. Some are Muslim, some Druze, some Christian (of various denominations) but all share the view that they vastly prefer living in Israel, where they have EQUAL OPPORTUNITIES and their culture is highly respected to what goes on under Fatah and Hamas in the West Bank and Gaza.

May I suggest that you try and sort out the mess in Britain what with the large influx of Poles who won't intergrate (last week's Tablet), and the no-go areas mentioned by the Bishop of Rochester and endorsed in this week's Church of England paper.

10 January 2008 at 15:00  
Blogger V said...

http://v-politics.blogspot.com/

Pay a visit!

10 January 2008 at 17:55  
Blogger Snuffleupagus said...

Your Grace, The Oxford Union has such a motion not because it is anti-Jewish, or not considered racist, but because it inspires such anger in people, as your very short post has just done.

I am certain that the Union would love to put forward the motion questioning Islam as a religion of peace. It too would provoke anger and argument. Their reluctance isn't because of racism. Don't you think they might just fear for their lives...?

10 January 2008 at 18:02  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

If these people have nothing better to do that argue inanities,might i suggest that they take a look outside thier ivory towers for a moment , they might realise that a far greater and more urgent threat,is about to start wailing five times a day,through a state of the art sound system at roof-top height.Every-one these days seems to wish to mind every-one elses business instead of thier own,and what will the victors of this "debate"do with thier dubious self-righteousness,push a button and instantly isreal disappears? a more pertinent question would be ,do the English have a right to live in thier own country ,under thier own laws,with thier own religion.

10 January 2008 at 18:29  
Anonymous nedsherry said...

His Grace writes:

They won’t take place, of course, because they are ‘racist’, while perpetual criticism of Israel and the Jews is not...

Eh? Criticizing Jews is not racist? Our race laws were brought in at Jewish behest and specifically cover Jews, who are the world's greatest experts at playing the victim card. Muslims, blacks, homosexuals and the rest merely follow in the footsteps of the masters.

Dr Lancaster writes:

The indigenous inhabitants of Israel were Jews.

I support Israel's right to exist and to discriminate in favour of Jews, but I have to say that that's a very racist remark. It's the sort of thing the neo-nazi BNP say about whites in the UK, and no doubt you condemn it when they say it. Or do you mean that because Israel is a Jewish name, its history began with the Jews? If not, I suggest you look into Israel's prehistory.

Israel is a Jewish and democratic State. This means that it lives by Jewish values, as laid down in the Bible, and developed over 2000 years in diaspora.

Numbers 25:6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 25:7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; 25:8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.

This therefore includes and emphasizes full rights for all minorities, whatever their race, ethnic origin, colour, creed, or religion.

What could be blocking these Jews’ aliyah?

A black Jewish family from South London have been forced to delay their aliyah because of unexplained stonewalling by the Israeli authorities. Carl and Maleka Levy — Reform converts to Judaism from Rastafarianism — had been set to begin a new life with their five daughters in Ashkelon three months ago. But this week the family, who are regular worshippers at Bromley Reform Synagogue in Kent, vented their frustration at the failure of Israel’s Interior Ministry to approve their emigration.

http://www.thejc.com/home.aspx?ParentId=m11&SecId=11&AId=56811&ATypeId=1

As a racist myself, I fully support Jews' desire to keep Israel as free from blacks as possible. I only wish Jews had the desire to keep Britain free of them too.

Contrast this with the situation in the West Bank and Gaza where women particularly are under siege and not allowed to fulfil their potential, because of the theocratic nature of Hamas...

Rabbis cancel conference on 'chained women'

Chief Sephardi Rabbi Shlomo Amar last week canceled the conference on women whose husbands refuse to grant them a divorce (agunot), which was due to take place in Jerusalem on Tuesday, at the order of ultra-Orthodox Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv. Amar had obtained Elyashiv's approval for the holding the Chief Rabbinate's first conference on this issue. However, ultra-Orthodox figures in the Rabbinic Courts persuaded Elyashiv to withdraw his approval. Dozens of chief rabbis, rabbinic court heads and rabbinic judges from the Diaspora had been invited to the conference, and some have already arrived in Israel. Rabbi Amar had initiated the project to find ways of helping women whose husbands refuse to divorce them, and women who cannot divorce because their husbands are missing and not proven dead. Conference participants were to debate whether to impose economic and social sanctions on divorce objectors without infringing on halakhic principles. Three months ago, Amar persuaded the Haredi sage Elyashiv to approve the conference. Elyashiv conditioned his consent on banning women from the conference.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/783697.html

10 January 2008 at 18:47  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Labour MP John Austin, who has repeatedly tabled Early Day Motions urging disestablishment, put down his latest motion last night as MPs debated scrapping Britain's blasphemy laws.

Once again the Church of England is attacked by NuLabour, another attempt to break Britain from its' Christian Heritage to appease the Muslims and the Marxists.

The Blasphemy Law is a Red Herring as everyone knows that the only religion to be ridiculed will be Christianity, John Austin MP for Erith and Thamesmead should know that better people than him have tried to destroy the Church and failed as he will too.

P.S. I read they are to ban Deactivated Guns, shame they cannot stop the flow of them from the Continent.

10 January 2008 at 19:36  
Anonymous harry horton said...

nedsherry said...

I support Israel's right to exist and to discriminate in favour of Jews

At least he's honest about it, which makes a refreshing change from some of the weasel words from the Israel fan club earlier in this thread.

10 January 2008 at 19:47  
Anonymous The recusant said...

Dr Lancaster,

You really will have to stop reporting the good relation between Jew, Arabs and Christians in Israel you know, it ruins a week’s load of bile, some must have spent ages building their rage just for you to pour cold water on their flames. Anyway to my point:

Please disregard the Poisoned Pill (The Tablet), it’s a subversive rag that does its best to undermine the Church at every opportunity and its editorial direction to the RCC is that of the Guardian/BBC to the UK, which is why it reports the poles are not mixing well. You see they are orthodox in their Catholicism and the Pill has spent the last 40 years pushing the ‘Spirit’ of Vatican 2, of course the recent corrections from Rome are most unwelcome and is sending them into a tail-spin, they see all their hard work being undone, poor luvs.

The Poles are devout and fitting in fine, it will take them a little while to settle, hopefully their influence will help clear our Bishops minds and help them once again to look to Rome for guidance. Time will tell but don’t rely on the Poisoned Pill; it has made more than one ill with its medicine.

For a more credible news source may I recommend the Catholic Herald if you can get it or The Universe, even The Catholic Times but not, under any circumstances the pill.

Let me tell you the one thing I have against Moses. He took us forty years into the desert in order to bring us to the one place in the Middle East that has no oil! -- Golda Meir

10 January 2008 at 23:12  
Anonymous irenelancaster said...

Biblical stories such as the one mentioned above have been developed and re-interpreted. They are not all regarded as edifying. The role of the Bible, as interpreted by Jews, is to act as a starting-point which can be developed.

The Hindu scriptures also contain many scenes of violence, death and destruction, but these do not lead to attacks on the Hindu communities around the world.

Why do you think that Israel comes in for so much pummelling when Jewish scriptures are no more bloodthirsty than many others?

In addition, unlike in some other Middle Eastern countries, church bells ring out freely in Israel (as well as the Muslim call to prayer).

There are many laws and customs which have been kept by Jews which are not derived from the Bible, but implied from it or read into it, such as 'counting the Omer' between Passover and Shavuot.


I did not say that Israel is perfect. Nor did I say that Jews are perfect - far from it. But given the circumstances I don't think they've done badly.

As for attitudes to the black community, there are plenty of Ethiopian Jews in Israel, very many of them in Haifa, who are happy to be here and despite initial difficulties of language and mores soon settle in.

In addition, there are also quite a few black Christians living in Israel.

To return to the Poles in Britain, Cardinal Glemp appears to have suggested that they should form their own communities and not integrate.

When Jews emigrated to England, most of them in the late 19th and early 20th century, many of them came from Russia and Poland, driven out by government-instituted pogroms.

However, one of the first things they did was to see to it that their children learned English. The London Jewish Free School did not allow their native language, Yiddish, at all, in an attempt to Anglicize these newcomers to the shore.

Many are now critical of how this acculturation was done. Ironically, interest in Hebrew grew from 1967 and even Yiddish has seen a come-back in some strictly Orthodox areas, as well as having become an academic area of study, not least at Oxford University.

However, in Israel, in order to integrate newcomers, Hebrew is encouraged from the outset and in Haifa Arabic has now also been made compulsory at Primary school level, even though many of the new immigrants are from the former Soviet Union.

To conclude, you do not hear criticisms of India, based on its scriptures. So why should Israel be treated any differently?

11 January 2008 at 07:12  
Blogger Johnny Norfolk said...

Jorden should be the Palesinian state.Israel should remain as it is.

11 January 2008 at 08:20  
Anonymous the last toryboy said...

Nation states live in a Hobbesian world of dog eat dog realpolitik, so no, I don't think any state has a 'right' to exist. Where is this right enumerated? Sure not in the bible, the modern nation state being a recent phenomenon.

11 January 2008 at 09:59  
Anonymous the last toryboy said...

...and the censuses (censi? :p) of the Ottoman Empire tell us very clearly that Israel has not been Jewish for centuries if not millenia. The massive Jewish immigration into the British Mandate of Palestine (Wasn't the British Mandate of Israel, was it) is a matter of well known and unambiguous historical record.

Frankly the argument that Israel is Jewish and that its 'right to exist', whatever that is, is derived from it being Jewish, is, to me, religious nutterism. You may as well say that the United States is Native American, or that we should make way for the Celts. It really is total bunk.

There are plenty of other arguments that could be used, like the fact that Israel's neighbours are generally some form of fascistic dictatorship, but it makes me uneasy to see Israel's defenders couching their arguments in biblical terminology. Nobody sensible cares what went on there 2000 years ago, to be honest.

...and even in the Bible the Jews turfed out all the scum who were in Canaan before they were with fire and sword. So the argument that "Israel has always been Jewish" even fails if you use the Bible as your source. The only argument from the Bible that holds water is "Israel is Jewish because God said so" which to me puts you in the same box as rank nutters like the Taliban,

11 January 2008 at 10:07  
Anonymous DB said...

Talking of Oxford - Bishop of Oxford backs Muslim call to prayer

11 January 2008 at 10:59  
Anonymous irenelancaster said...

Quite a few Bishops back the Muslim call to prayer. This was made perfectly clear by the Muslim Council of Britain on last Sunday's Radio 4 Sunday Programme.

The Bishops think that by condoning more and more Muslim practice in England's public spaces, they are merely demonstrating tolerance to a minority group.

What they fail to understand is where this may lead.

When other minority groups are allowed to practise their religion, they do not tend to wish to envelop the host environment in this religion.

Judaism is clear that 'the law of the land is the law' and that the laws of England take precedence over Jewish law, except in three cases: murder, idolatry and sexual immorality.

Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists also tend to get on with it in a relatively quiet fashion.

But Islam is sui generis a conversionary religion - and what's more a religion which has, more often than not, used violence to gain these converts.

This is advocated in the Qu'ran and this is how Islam has spread in practice.

The fact that converts have come to Islam through peaceful means and of their own accord is undoubtedly also true in some cases, but for the larger part of its 1400 year history, Islam has been proud to conque 'by the sword'.

If Islam could metaphorize all these parts of the Qu'ran, as Judaism has done with the more war-like bits of the Bible (also the Christian Bible, I might add), then this would be a start.

Judaism has a theology of diaspora. Islam has yet to learn it.

Having said all this, the muezzin does sound all over Israel, and does wake people up at around 5.00 am in the morning.

But although largely secular, Israel does know that it is a Jewish country. The whole week is based around spending Shabbat with family, whether religiously or otherwise and the secular Press writes very interesting articles from different angles at Passover, Shavuot, Succot, Purim, Chanukah, etc.

If England is enabled to rediscover its Christian roots (which will entail promoting Judaism as well, ironically enough) maybe this will persuade Muslims to come to their senses.

And realise that they are a minority - no more and no less than that, wih duties, as well as rights.

11 January 2008 at 12:33  
Anonymous The recusant said...

last toryboy, the ancient and only Jewish claim to Israel is that it is the land was given to Moses by God; really what other claims would anyone need, the Jewish people, either in residence or in diaspora, have never reneged on it. Hence at the beginning of the Passover Haggadah as the traditional text runs: "This is the bread of affliction that our fathers ate in Egypt. Whoever is hungry, come and eat! Whoever is in need, come and join in the Pesach! This year [we are] here; next year in the Land of Israel!"

The Jewish people have had their arses kicked by the best, but in time it has always been the best who have disappeared, throughout they have always, always maintained their claim to the lands if Israel. Dismissing this as religious nutterism and placing it on a-par with Islamic terrorism is like comparing the Crown Jewels with a Ratners charm bracelet. One Jewish wit said God chose the Jew, why couldn't he have chosen someone else? Well the Jews are still around, there's a lesson in that somewhere.

11 January 2008 at 12:34  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes Mary Tudor, go and do something more worthwhile instead of defending your wicked terrorist friends. Isn't it amazing how the truth puts lies to flight!!

11 January 2008 at 14:00  
Anonymous the last toryboy said...

@ The Recusant

You seem little better to me than the Muslim weirdoes. Indeed, you are to all intents and purposes identical.

11 January 2008 at 14:30  
Anonymous mary tudor said...

Anonymous said...
Yes Mary Tudor, go and do something more worthwhile instead of defending your wicked terrorist friends. Isn't it amazing how the truth puts lies to flight!!

frankly, being called a liar by you is like being called ugly by a toad

11 January 2008 at 14:36  
Anonymous Cinnamon said...

Sometimes when I read the deluded hissy comments about Israel, I sincerely wish that the Israelis would be and do everything they are accused of -- maybe that would get those muppets to STFU and perhaps pick on a more deserving target, for example, the Iranian mullahs, who cast kids off cliffs (after flogging them of course) for the 'crime' of 'enmity towards Allah'[1].

As to the question whether Israeli has a right to exist... the IDF says YES.

[1]http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/019518.php

11 January 2008 at 15:02  
Anonymous harry horton said...

cinnamon said...

As to the question whether Israeli has a right to exist... the IDF says YES.

surprised they take the time off from committing war crimes to make conversation...

11 January 2008 at 15:20  
Anonymous Cinnamon said...

Unfortunately, the Israelis (and modern armies in general) have this silly idea about 'humane war' and all that, and are far to 'nice' to actually be effective. So as an end result, the agony is prolonged and made worse.

What is so special about enemy civilians anyway? They are just people who hate you the same as their soldiers do, and once you're going to war you long decided that killing them is a necessity anyway.

Remember the blanket bombing of Germany?

Warcrimes work.

And it worked because it reduced the number of psychopathic assholes if Germany to a tolerable level, allowing it an almost clean start and now the country is once again on top of the world and recovering intellectually and morally as well. It took 50 years, but without the mass cull of nutters, the rehabilitation towards a normal nation would never have happened.

The very idea of a 'war crime' is broken anyway -- war is war(people die, stuff gets smashed, you know the drill), not some kind of court case or pow-wow. Maybe you guys don't take war serious anymore and hence the confusion over it's meaning and purpose?

11 January 2008 at 15:39  
Anonymous the recusant said...

last toryboy, Thanks for the psychological assessment, I'll bear it in mind. As you seem to know me so well I would e interested to know in what way I am identical to your 'Muslim weirdoes', just in case I get the uncontrollable urge to strap 20lbs of TNT to my back and head for the underground. Or do you have problems being able to distinguish between all theists in general, akin to 'they all look the same to me'.

The point I was making was that the Jews are quite unique in this respect; they have consistently made the same claim to posses Israel for over 3000 years. They are not johnny-come-latelys and you cannot reduce their claim to a simplistic reductionist argument of one-size fits all. Nations have tried to eliminate them many times with that mindset and usually its themselves that have disappeared. As for you statement, nobody cares what went on 2000 years ago, I beg to differ, especially on this blog, why are you here again?

11 January 2008 at 16:41  
Anonymous nedsherry said...

Biblical stories such as the one mentioned above have been developed and re-interpreted. They are not all regarded as edifying. The role of the Bible, as interpreted by Jews, is to act as a starting-point which can be developed.

They are regarded as edifying by the Orthodox and still inform Jewish attitudes to gentiles: dominate them or be destroyed.

The Hindu scriptures also contain many scenes of violence, death and destruction, but these do not lead to attacks on the Hindu communities around the world.

I don't think critiques of Jewish scripture are an important source of anti-semitism and Jews are rather more prominent than Hindus in the world's affairs, despite being much fewer in number.

Why do you think that Israel comes in for so much pummelling when Jewish scriptures are no more bloodthirsty than many others?

Israel is attacked by the left because it's seen as a white European nation oppressing non-whites. The biters are bit, in other words.

To conclude, you do not hear criticisms of India, based on its scriptures. So why should Israel be treated any differently?

See above.

11 January 2008 at 17:29  
Blogger AethelBald, King of Wessex said...

Folks, It's time to take our medication.

11 January 2008 at 22:00  
Anonymous mary tudor said...

AethelBald, King of Wessex said...
Folks, It's time to take our medication.


Okay your majesty - the usual largactyl, stemetyl & depixol it is...

cheers mate!

yummy!

12 January 2008 at 00:38  
Blogger Unsworth said...

@ Dr Lancaster

"If England" etc.

Well that excludes Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and - possibly - Eire.

Why?

True, there is the Church of Scotland, but what about the others?

Or is this the mistake which so many Americans make of confusing England with the United Kingdom, Britain and/or the British Isles? Some Englishmen might regard that with disdain.

12 January 2008 at 10:47  
Anonymous irenelancaster said...

There seems to be a bit of confusion here. The State of Israel was voted into existence by a free vote at the UN. It is therefore a legal entity.

It is indeed the Orthodox Jews who have developed biblical insights. This is an ongoing process, which has prevented Judaism from stultifying.

I'm aware of the constitution of the British Isles and the UK, as I come from Manchester and have only lived in Israel for just over a year. I still have a British passport and visit England from time to time.

If I am invited to Scotland, Wales or Ireland, I am happy to go there as well. However, my main work with the Churches has been with the Church of England, although I did teach music (mainly to Arabs) at the Church of Scotland School in Jaffa last term. The school is run accoring to the English syllabus. The Scottish syllabus is quite different.

12 January 2008 at 16:53  
Anonymous the last toryboy said...

"On 29 November 1947 the United Nations voted to terminate the British Mandate of Palestine by 1 August 1948 and, to resolve the Arab-Israeli conflict in the British Mandate of Palestine, for a plan for the partition of the Mandate territory. The plan came to be called the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine or United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181. The plan was approved by the United Nations General Assembly by 33 votes to 13, with 10 abstentions.

The plan would have partitioned the territory of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with the Greater Jerusalem area, including Bethlehem, coming under international control."

Well, thats all kosher then isnt it. What rot, that document was a dead letter pretty much immediately. Sheesh, I dunno why people feel the urge to come up with all these bogus justifications rather than accept the realpolitik version.

"The United Kingdom refused to implement the plan, arguing it was unacceptable to both sides. It also refused to share the administration of Palestine with the UN Palestine Commission during the transitional period. It terminated the British mandate of Palestine on May 15, 1948"

More UN catastrophe, but then the UN was garbage from the day it was invented, sooner its gone the better.

13 January 2008 at 05:24  
Anonymous mary tudor said...

UN resolution 181???

that would be the one that said (Chapter 2.8)...

No expropriation of land owned by an Arab in the Jewish State (by a Jew in the Arab State) shall be allowed except for public purposes. In all cases of expropriation full compensation as fixed by the Supreme Court shall be paid previous to dispossession.


nuff said.

13 January 2008 at 20:09  
Anonymous Darren said...

The recusant: "I would e interested to know in what way I am identical to your 'Muslim weirdoes', just in case I get the uncontrollable urge to strap 20lbs of TNT to my back and head for the underground. Or do you have problems being able to distinguish between all theists in general, akin to 'they all look the same to me'."

1. You don't NEED to strap 20 lbs of TNT to yourself, you get the IDF to drop 500lb bombs on the people you don't like. If the Palestinians received billions of dollars of military aid, they wouldn't need to strap the TNT on.

2. Yes, all theists are EXACTLY the same. You're all deluded nutters, each and every one of you. I know the truth hurts.

8 February 2011 at 02:19  
Anonymous Darren said...

"Remember the blanket bombing of Germany? Warcrimes work. And it worked because it reduced the number of psychopathic assholes if Germany to a tolerable level..."

The Allies certainly made many advances in military technology during WW2, but I was unaware that they developed a bomb that was able to distinguish psychopathic assholes from ordinary citizens.

You, sir, are an idiot, even by the heroic standards of idiocy common on the internet.

8 February 2011 at 03:00  

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