Sunday, January 25, 2009

British Muslim scouts to pledge allegiance to Allah

The British Scout Movement was founded in 1907, since which time every boy (and, more recently, girl) wishing to become a member has been obliged to swear to ‘do their best to do their duty to God and to the Queen’. The organisation, which is now worldwide, has the stated aim of supporting young people in their physical, mental and spiritual development, so that they may play constructive roles in society.

The Oath of Allegiance has occasionally been questioned by Atheists and Roman Catholics, the latter because of the recognition that the Queen is not only Head of State, but also Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

Despite these objections - which are undoubtedly sincerely held - the Oath of Allegiance has never been amended in the UK to meet their demands or to recognise their sensitivites.

But Muslim Boy Scouts in Dundee will now be able to pledge allegiance to ‘Allah’ and drop the traditional oath to God and Queen, says the Scout Association in Scotland.

In the oath Muslim recruits will be able to replace the name ‘God’ with ‘Allah, the Most Beneficent and the Most Merciful’.

Cranmer has absolutely no objection to this. It is manifest common sense that, in order to accommodate the movement's 28 million members around the world, the words of the Oath can and ought to modified to encompass non-Christian faiths. Since ‘Allah’ simple means ‘God’ (actually, ‘The God’), it is (to all scouting intents and purposes) no different from swearing allegiance to God. There will be very few scouts who have a developed doctrine of God, and the theological implications are irrelevant when it comes to fishing, backpacking, tying knots and fire-making.

The Scout guidelines state: ‘The phrase “to love God” and “duty to God” implies belief in a supreme being and the acceptance of divine guidance and therefore the word “God” can be replaced by “Allah”, “my Dharma” or others as appropriate to suit the faith or religion of the individual concerned.’

So what is Cranmer’s problem?

Muslim scouts in the UK will not only be swearing allegiance to ‘Allah, the Most Beneficent and the Most Merciful’, but they will pledge to honour ‘the country in which I am now living’, instead of Her Majesty the Queen.

Drummond Cox, a spokesman for the Scout Association, claims the change ‘represents a tweak rather than a major change’. But he is quite wrong. This is nothing to do with denominational sensitivity or issues of inclusivity,

It is curious that Muslims have achieved what Roman Catholics could not. If there is a desire to ‘cater for Muslims specifically’, and this is ‘affirmative action’, why were the concerns of the Atheists, Roman Catholics or Republican-minded scouts never ‘catered for specifically’?

On a superficial level, the change ignores those very many Muslims in the UK who are proud monarchists, but, more significantly, it is a charter for scouts to demand to swear upon whatever they see fit. It is not so much a ‘two-tier Scout Movement’, but the eradication of that which has unified British scouts for a century – allegiance to the Monarch in his or her role as Head of State.

And Cranmer is rather concerned that allegiance to ‘the country in which I am now living’ does not specifically demand allegiance to its customs, traditions or to liberal democracy, of which Her Majesty is both symbol and guardian. Islam is a religio-political construct which is territorial – the Dar al-Harb must give way to the Dar al-Islam. Scouting has not yet introduced that Jihad Merit Badge, but swearing allegiance to a geographic entity is convenient and somewhat portentous.

This is the time for the UK’s Atheist scouts, Roman Catholic scouts and Jedi Knight scouts to demand an oath tailored to suit their sensitivities. To be denied this now would be rather blatant religious discrimination.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here we go again. Bending over backwards for Islam. The UK is primarily a Christian country. What happens now if all the other religions want to swear allegiance to their Gods too?

Of course they won't, because it's only the Muslims that expect us to bend over and get ar*e fuc*ed by them!

I wish they'd all fu*k off if they are not happy!

25 January 2009 at 11:23  
Anonymous Shaven-headed tattooed knuckledragger said...

"...the Dar al-Harb must give way to the Dar al-Islam."

Yes indeed. The concept of civil war is implicit in the term 'Dar al-Harb'.

Islamageddon - the final global war between Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb - is inevitable. Even the Dalai Lama has said there is no non-violent solution to the Islamic problem.

When WWIII starts, many European cities will become bloodbaths as well-armed and well-trained Muslim militias massacre the unarmed kuffar population.

Islam, as Samuel Huntington famously remarked, has bloody borders, and those borders now run through every major European city.

There is nothing much we can do globally about this build-up to Islamageddon (it will probably start with a nuclear exchange between Israel and Iran, or India and Pakistan, and then go viral).

However we can act locally to protect ourselves by expelling all potential militants before things really kick off.

25 January 2009 at 11:42  
Anonymous no nonny said...

'The country in which I am now living' sounds wonderfully temporary!!! I hope they're all planning to move elsewhere before they grow up - Brussells might be nice for them. And may their false god go with them.

Meanwhile, why doesn't the British scouting authority break from them completely? Are they not breaking their own oath if they fail to do so? The foreigners want to be separate, so let them (it's a human right, isn't it?).

That way we'd also keep our own boys well away from their perniciousness.

And I do very seriously object to the grafting of their religion onto all our institutions and organizations - for that's what this is about. I say let's start putting up some new stone crosses, hither and yon.

I keep hearing the echo of some old words about me... Out, is it? O... I can't, for the life of me, remember properly - but they're in the right land, for it, aren't they?

25 January 2009 at 12:01  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The term 'Scouts' had its origins in the North West Frontier regiments which were typically recruited from Pashtun [Muslim] tribesmen. Baden-Powell would have been very familiar with this usage when he adopted the word for his boys in South Africa.

25 January 2009 at 12:27  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This country is reaping what it has sown.
By getting rid of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob they have created a vacuum, Islam is now rushing in to fill that vacuum.
It will get a lot worse before it gets better!

25 January 2009 at 13:00  
Blogger Microcosm said...

Article 61 Magna Carta Lawful Rebellion is about removing loyalty to the Queen, until the various acts of Treason in this Country have been dealt with.

Under the current climate I see no reason for any Scout Groups to be brainwashing kids into making this oath until further notice, Islam has demonstrated a clear way forwards, a way the British can make a protest and bring their children up fully aware of the Traitors in power.

25 January 2009 at 14:43  
Blogger Miss Snuffleupagus said...

Interesting, Your Grace. And a very clever post.

25 January 2009 at 15:06  
Anonymous Cranmer's Curate said...

"There will be very few scouts who have a developed doctrine of God, and the theological implications are irrelevant when it comes to fishing, backpacking, tying knots and fire-making."

Really? Whom these boy-scouts have to thank for these wholeshome outdoor activities? Certainly not Allah or the Force or Charles Darwin or even the Virgin Mary, but the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, the maker of heaven and earth.

25 January 2009 at 15:12  
Anonymous Shaven-headed tattooed knuckledragger said...

The militant Iranian fatwa-facilitator Lord Ahmed has intimidated the House of Lords (which doesn't take much doing) into banning a showing of Fitna .

25 January 2009 at 15:18  
Anonymous an ex-apprentice said...

Your Grace,
We have had Muslim only scouting groups in this country for some years. As you say with the Oath, the same facility and degree of compromise is not provided to those of other faiths.

"Welcome to 7th Goodmayes (Al-Noor) Muslim Scouts!
Assalamu alaikum. Peace be upon you!

With thanks to God and on behalf of the Leaders of the 7th Goodmayes (Al-Noor) Scout Group, I thank you for showing an interest in the good work we do for the young people of our community.
Since it began in April 2006, the 7th Goodmayes (Al-Noor) Scout Group has provided a healthy mixture of challenging and adventurous activities for its members. The name of our game is "fun" and we have to ensure that our members enjoy themselves throughout their Scouting experiences. We provide fortnightly activities for boys and girls aged 6-14 years.

We do all of this in an encouraging and supportive Islamic environment, our aim is develop young people who love Allah and His Messenger, peace and blessings upon him, and have a balanced and enthusiastic attitude to Islam and to the society in which we are living."

25 January 2009 at 15:41  
Anonymous Nick M said...

Well, ya see the Catholics haven't bee burning people to death since the days of Bloody Mary. Not so the Koranimals.

25 January 2009 at 16:05  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

'The country in which I am now living' seems to be an admision that they are not citizens of the UK (not that that means much today). Still, they can get on with wholesome activities like backpacking, whitewater rafting in Wales, paintballing - no, don't panic, they're Islamic!

25 January 2009 at 16:55  
Blogger Fred Preuss said...

"Allah" means "God"; it's not a change, just a translation.
There have been scouts doing this for the past 85 years, including under British rule.

Don't get your woggles in a twist!

25 January 2009 at 18:28  
Blogger Cranmer said...

Mr Fred Preuss,

If you had bothered to read His Grace's post before contributing your knee-jerk reaction...

25 January 2009 at 18:54  
Anonymous Dave J. said...

I'd note for the sake of comparison that the Scout Oath here in the US is "to God and to my country," not the weasel-worded "country in which I live" which connotes no loyalty whatsoever. There's been a fair amount of litigation over the first half--the courts ultimately concluding that the Boy Scouts of America have the right to exclude atheists--but none that I'm aware of over the latter. Scouting is a voluntary patriotic association: if you don't want to be a patriot with all it entails, then surely no one is FORCING young Muslim lads to become Scouts in the UK?

25 January 2009 at 19:25  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is a re-shaping of our society.
It is being done by inches, a little here, a little there.
This is preparing us for the One World Religion.

25 January 2009 at 19:56  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In the past there was an alternative form of promise that could be taken when there were clear and reasonable objections to the Promise. I think it was called the "Outlander Promise" but do not have a copy to hand. That said, the Scouting Movement as a whole has much to offer although I note with regret that under the Hamas regime in Gaza the Scouts are illegal. Perhaps an organisation dedicated to being friendly to one another as Baden Powell intended is truly needed by such people as those who turn their backs on it. Israel and many Arab and Muslim nations have thriving movements all of whom get on with each other at the Jamborees and perhaps that is a lesson of hope.
Thankyou for you time.

25 January 2009 at 20:40  
Anonymous Preacher said...

What worries me the most is not the Boy Scouts or the Sea Scouts or any other outdoor pursuits for young people, (although a sudden outbreak of Hitler Youth in Hyde Park could be cause for concern) but the absolute stupidity & ignorance of many so called
'christian' leaders. I have just read a report in a local paper in which three letters appear that criticise a previous communicant
for stating among other things that the Muslim & Christian God are not the same, this was related to the'common word between us and you' farce. Can you believe that
one of these was a local methodist preacher and another a retired United Reform Church minister. Where have these people been? & What have they been teaching their flock? The greatest danger comes from within, Who teaches these Bozos? Synchretism lives, the World Council of Churches have been promoting it for decades, the enemy within could still do for us, tread cautiously bretheren!

25 January 2009 at 21:33  
Anonymous Shaven-headed tattooed knuckledragger said...

Pat Condell's latest on Geert Wilders

25 January 2009 at 21:41  
Blogger ThunderDragon said...

Cranmer, let me (as a Scout Leader myself) point out a few inaccuracies in your post.

1. There has been no change. The ability for Muslim Scouts to exchange "God" for "Allah" is nothing new, but has existed for years.

2. The option to change "duty to the Queen" to "duty to the country in which I am now living" applies only to those who are foreign residents and thus owe allegiance to their own country.

I will be writing a post on this on my own blog to provide further explanation.

25 January 2009 at 23:53  
Blogger The last cause said...

Well Your Grace, is Islam as reliant on creeds as Christianity?

I ask simply because Islam at it's worst is fully capable of instilling disloyalty to a creed based on Habiyah (sorry for the misspelling)Truces as any other pursuit.

That asked, I will say there is a line between accommodation and treason in a Monarchist country, a Culture survives by it's rituals, as picayune as it might seem to the casual observer, the rejection of any form of fealty means much more then the mere words can transmit.

It is the idea of a Unified Country under a titular head that is being ignored with the new oath.

26 January 2009 at 01:48  
Blogger David said...

First of all, let us be clear that what we are talking about is in no sense and oath. It is pledge.

As a very yong Canadian I belonged to a Roman Catholic Scout troop. I never once heard until today on this blog (and I am now a senior citizen) heard any difficulty expressed by Roman Catholics with regard to the words "to God and to queen". God is God and the Queen is head of state. She is not even head of the Anglican Church of Canada.

As a proud Canadian monarchist I can see no reason whatsoever in removing the reference to the Queeen from the pledge for Muslims if they are in a country in which the Queen is the head of state.

26 January 2009 at 01:54  
OpenID BL@KBIRD said...

And when the holy month is over tie them up in knots where ever you find them......BP 12.21

Take no friends from among the non scouts...BP 4.45

At the moment a scout earns a badge, Allah fills the body of the scout and does the good deed...BP 8.17

Scouting in the way of Allah is just one twinkling facet cut in the diamond of your destruction.

26 January 2009 at 03:26  
Blogger Cranmer said...

Mr Thunderdragon,

If you had bothered to read His Grace's post, you would read that your 'corrections' are not remotely necessary.

Why do communicants not read what His Grace says, instead of what they believe His Grace ought to have said?

26 January 2009 at 07:18  
Blogger adrian said...

Well if the Christian faith won't dare support the Political Party that openly advocates that Britain is a Christian society, what do you expect, the British people have to Unite or Westminster's New world Order will simply divide and ConqEUr us.

26 January 2009 at 13:29  
Anonymous The New World Order said...

This is what Blair is up to with his faith academies, Creating a One World Religion.

Oswald was innocent

26 January 2009 at 13:30  
Blogger .C. said...

I'm a little disappointed that so many of these comments demonstrate such intolerance! Even the relatively conservative view of Cranmer made a fair comment on this issue: it has been dragged off to the right by people making irrational assumptions as to the motives of a childrens organisation!

The changes, though fairly arbitary, are positive: yet allowing flexibility does indeed affect the power of taking an "oath" in the first place: if any "oath" has a function of loyalty this function is weakened by allowing people to make change where their loyalties lie. This a simple impartial judgement but it does make the assumption that it is the intention of the organisation to limit its members opinions:

The fact that the scouts have now become more of youth activity organisation rather than an empirically minded boys club means that the need for a loyalty "oath" has essentially disappeared - so why should there be any problem in changing it in the same way people change their wedding vows? Fair that it should be kept on as a traditional procedure - but not fair that it should substantively exclude people from the reality of what the modern scouts stand for.

26 January 2009 at 13:38  
Anonymous not a machine said...

oh dear , another cleve into the once sound fabric of our country .

they wont learn will they , we will need more than suede gloves and saftey googles for this experiment when it goes wrong .

wonder if there is a stoning or beheading badge ??

26 January 2009 at 18:03  
Anonymous ThunderDragon said...

Cranmer, the simple fact that you stated that "Muslim scouts in the UK... will pledge to honour ‘the country in which I am now living’, instead of Her Majesty the Queen" which is entirely untrue shows that the corrections are necessary.

The changes to the Promise in no way weaken it. All it does is enable non-Christians and non-Brits to make it.

Like I said, more details are available at my blog:

26 January 2009 at 22:17  
Blogger ZZMike said...

"Since ‘Allah’ simply means ‘God’ (actually, ‘The God’), it is (to all scouting intents and purposes) no different from swearing allegiance to God."

At the risk of starting a long thread - and I recognize Your Worship's lengthy experience and credentials in this field - I have grave reservations as to whether or not "God" and "Allah" represent the same Being. I feel confident that they do not represent the same understanding.

The God we pray to does not drive us to "kill the infidel". I think that most of us would have a hard time even defining "infidel" (atheist? agnostic? wicca? Southern Baptist?).

If indeed Allah is their name for God, their understanding of Him is sufficiently imperfect that it might as well apply to some other god, in which case we're back at the beginning.

I've noticed over the years that the phrase ‘Allah, the Most Beneficent and the Most Merciful’ gives his believers leave to be both malificent and unmerciful.

Clearly there is no problem with a Scout-like group for any class. Even a certain unpleasant dictator in Germany, circa 1930, had his own youth group.

But if anybody wants to associate with (or whatever the secular term for "be in communion with") B-P's Boy Scouts, they must agree to the primary guidelines (going liturgical again, they must sign on to the beliefs, confessions, and teachings) of the original group.

What the Dundee Scouts are doing is practically the same as if a group here in the States wanted to set up a local chapter of the Rotary International, except that they advocated orthodox Communism and absolutely excluded short left-handed people.

If the Dundee Scouts have a problem with allegiance to the Queen (understandable - here in the States, our allegiance is to the country, not the President), they should be comfortable with allegiance to the particular country they're in - in this case, Great Britain (or is it "the United Kingdom", or "England"?).

After all, they chose to go there, most likely at great cost and hardship, and must surely be thankful that this new country affords them certain of the freedoms and liberties [see note below] found wanting in their country of origin.

"To be denied this now would be rather blatant religious discrimination."

I fear you have failed to understand the deeper meaning of "discrimination". One of our 19th-Century Phiosophers, one Ambrose Bierce, wrote a book he titled "The Devil's Dictionary" (worth searching for), in which he provides the true definitions for words we commonly misuse. Had the term existed in his time, he might have written

Discrimination, n.
A wicked process in which Muslims are brought low. It has no other apparent meaning.

[note below] From what I read almost daily, these "freedoms and liberties" are inexorably dissolving, under the glorious leadership of Mr Blair, Mr Brown, and the legions of black-umbrella men who decide what's best for the lot of you.

26 January 2009 at 22:21  
Anonymous PDFitzGerald-Morris said...

The "outlander" version of the Scout Promise ("the country in which I am now living") has been available to members of the Scout Movement for many years, so it is nothing new. It is however intended for use by those who were not citizens and had no legal duty of allegience.

Likewise the members of different religions have always been able to take the scout promise in the form amenable to their religion. There is nothing whatsoever new in moslem scouts promising to do their duty to Allah.

See POR rule 1.1 of the Scout Association here:

27 January 2009 at 00:18  
Anonymous Rob Farrington said...

ZZMike has a point - I thought that Muslims claimed that their God was the same as the God of the Jews and Christians, rather than some Arabic moon god just dressed up as the same God of 'The people of the book', in order to more easily win converts?

After all, I'd have no problem whatsoever with praying to God in a synagogue, or with Jewish friends, or with referring to God as "Hashem".

So what's the big deal? Or rather, THEIR big deal?

27 January 2009 at 04:05  
Anonymous church mouse said...

Mr. Farrington: So what's the big deal? Or rather, THEIR big deal?

World Domination.

27 January 2009 at 10:30  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are basically only two gods in this universe.
The creator God ,Who brings life.
The counterfeit god who brings death.
Your eternal future relies on choosing the right one,
choose wisely!

27 January 2009 at 19:05  
Blogger ZZMike said...

Rob: " I'd have no problem ... with referring to God as "Hashem".

Jews regard the Name of God as so sacred that they will not say it aloud. Even in writing (as in posts and comments), they will write "G-d".

"Hashem" isn't another name for God. It means, literally, "the name" (ha-shem), and is used when you want to mention God outside a ritual context. Even in services, they will always say "Adonai" - even when reading "YHWH".

The Koran tells us that the name of God is "Allah" (literally, "the God").

I don't buy into the "moon-god" theory. For one thing, they didn't have to worry about "in order to more easily win converts". During most of the Islamic rule, you could either convert or pay the jizya (the tax and the sign that you accepted Muslim domination), or in unhappier times (after about the year 1100, in Spain), be killed.

Up until recently, forced conversion was the exception - except for the early years when Mohammed was still in charge. Nowadays, it seems to be rampant in area like Pakistan and Indonesia

However, "unconversion" has alwasy been a capital offense - and since divinely inspired, needs no judge or jury to impose sentence.

Andrew Bostom has a more pessimistic take on the history (and I defer to his research):

Reciting the Shehada in Gaza

27 January 2009 at 21:49  
Anonymous len said...

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, made his name known to the Jewish people, however jewish scribes decided to conceal this name for whatever reason( best known to themselves.
The name of the creator God , King of the Universe is YAHWEH, there is no other!

28 January 2009 at 21:05  

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