Friday, May 22, 2009

Churches will be forced to employ homosexual youth workers

That is the alarmist claim in The Daily Telegraph. No high-profile mention of synagogues, mosques, gurdwaras, mandirs or viharas. Not that the viharas would mind much. But the focus of the effects of Labour’s Equality Bill is very much on its incompatibility with Christian orthodoxy and Church tradition. One wonders why, when the headline ‘Mosques will be forced to employ homosexual youth workers’ would have clarified the absurdity of the Government’s agenda, and doubtless sold more copy.

Before Cranmer continues, he seeks the advice of his communicants: may one use the word ‘homosexual’ any longer? Or is it, like the term ‘Roman Catholic’, considered by some practitioners to be derogatory or pejorative? Is ‘gay’ more gay-friendly?

Maria Eagle is the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State at the Government Equalities Office. She is the twin sister of Angela Eagle, who holds the distinction of being Parliament's first, and thus far only, openly lesbian member. Nothing whatsoever wrong with that: where Ms Eagle soars in her own time, and whither she ducks and dives in the privacy of her own home, is absolutely nothing to do with the State.

Unless, perhaps, Maria Eagle’s equalities agenda be influenced my sensitivities to familial loyalties.

The Equalities Bill does not go as far as forcing churches to employ homosexual priests, vicars or pastors: the State will graciously continue to permit those who preach the Word to live it. But churches may no longer discriminate against homosexuals youth workers, secretaries and other staff, even if their tradition holds same-sex relationships to be sinful.

It has been observed in recent years that that Christians are being disproportionately affected and unfairly targeted by discrimination laws. Christian leaders had hoped that churches would be exempt from the provisions of the Equality Bill, but Maria Eagle has stated that it will cover almost all church employees. She addressed delegates at a London conference for ‘Faith, Homophobia, Transphobia (that’s a new one) and Human Rights’, and told them:

‘The circumstances in which religious institutions can practise anything less than full equality are few and far between. While the state would not intervene in narrowly ritual or doctrinal matters within faith groups, these communities cannot claim that everything they run is outside the scope of anti-discrimination law. Members of faith groups have a role in making the argument in their own communities for greater LGBT acceptance, but in the meantime the state has a duty to protect people from unfair treatment.’

What about protecting Christians from ‘unfair treatment’? Or is it ‘fair’ that church adoption agencies may be forced to prefer homosexual adoptive parents; or Christian unions may be led by non-believers; or Christians lose their jobs for merely offering to pray with someone, or suspended for daring to oppose ‘gay marriage’?

'Organised religion’ is no longer to be exempt from the homosexual equality agenda: the Equality Bill specifies exemptions only for those who lead the liturgy or spend the majority of the time teaching doctrine. ‘Diversity’ in all other aspects of church life is to be enforced, and this constitutes an undoubted threat to orthodoxy and distinct religious identity. If churches may no longer discriminate against practising homosexuals ‘in the provision of good and services’, will it be lawful to bar them from taking bread and wine? The Eucharist is manifestly a ‘service’: is the State presuming to determine whom the Church may or may not excommunicate?

It is, however, somewhat puzzling that the Government is of the opinion that church youth workers do not spend the majority of their time teaching doctrine. But that point has already been tested, and the church lost.

Why are political parties exempt from discrimination legislation? Why is a card-carrying member of the Conservative Party not permitted to work for the Labour Party? How can such an unjust discrimination be tolerated?

Or is this yet another shameful example of politicians imposing regulations upon the electorate while simultaneously exempting themselves? Do they never learn?

And Cranmer still yearns to know why Ms Eagle did not make it clear in her address to the ‘Faith, Homophobia, Transphobia and Human Rights’ conference that this Bill will oblige mosques to employ homosexual youth workers, secretaries, architects, builders, window cleaners, etc., etc.

Perhaps it is too near an election to disclose the plan of Mutually Assured Destruction.


Anonymous TheGlovner said...

What's the big problem with this anyway?

Already been proved in the last couple of days that priests have been buggering male children for decades so it seems you already have a number of gay priests, they just have a taste for the younger end of the spectrum.

22 May 2009 at 13:24  
Anonymous God Hates Fags said...

The controversial Westboro Baptist Church, from Topeka, Kansas, is expected to stage a larger demonstration as the Kirk discusses the appointment of Reverend Scott Rennie, who lives with his male partner.

22 May 2009 at 13:59  
Anonymous mongoose said...

YG, "Transphobia"?

I think I may have lived too long.

22 May 2009 at 14:12  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

[sarcasm]Ah the good old phelps family and their voices of hate, what a good group of people they are to[/sarcasm]

22 May 2009 at 14:17  
Anonymous Hank Petram said...

Your Grace,

These words from Ms. Eagle's statement have a sinister, threatening ring to them:

"Members of faith groups have a role in making the argument in their own communities for greater LGBT acceptance, but in the meantime the state has a duty to protect people from unfair treatment."Some members, at least, of some "faith groups" will have the courage, one hopes, to make the argument in their own communities against greater LGBT acceptance. When that happens, and when the authoritarians find out about it, what next? No more "meantime", presumably. What form will the crackdown take?

Your blessing, my Lord.

22 May 2009 at 14:27  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This legislation will not be enforced upon Mosques.

Ever wondered how they get 100's of young boys to sit quietly and recite the Koran in a foreign language without any problem whilst teachers in the schools struggle to get them to sit still for 10 mins with all their skills & resources? Could it be the regular use of corporal punishment in their Madrasses?

22 May 2009 at 15:02  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Anony 15:02
Go to Saudia Arabia and teach.
See if you can get your Arab students to sit still for five minutes.

22 May 2009 at 15:20  
Anonymous John said...

This question goes to the heart of the matter as to secular discrimination laws.
There are 3 options:
(i) religious organisations are special and should be exempted as 'a matter of concience'
(ii) all should comply with secular discrimination laws; or
(iii) there should be no discrimination laws.

That is, assuming that the nation state is here to stay.

What is the answer ? I don't know: but more debtate on the matter would be a good thing, to be sure.

22 May 2009 at 15:21  
Anonymous God Hates Fags said...

Kirk assembly opens amid gay row.

Anyone who is interested in reading about the petition and a Statement to Commissioners at the forthcoming General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, can do so HERE.

22 May 2009 at 15:33  
Anonymous Homophobic Horse said...


One of the Phelps clan has showed up.

22 May 2009 at 15:34  
Anonymous Adrian P said...

The Favoured religion of the New World Order appears to be Islam.
Makes sense really from a control point of view.

The destruction of the Christian faith is clearly stated in the Communist manifesto and many of our Establishment are former members of the communist party or their sympathisers.

I really have to ask, how much evidence people really need.

22 May 2009 at 15:49  
Blogger Man in a Shed said...

The obvious conclusion is that Labour has set out to destroy the Christian Church.

Now who else do we know with that agenda ?

22 May 2009 at 16:06  
Anonymous Arch Lector said...

Isn't the correct term homosexualist?

22 May 2009 at 16:16  
Anonymous non mouse said...

As the Enemy attempts to destroy the Word, words also suffer deconstruction. I've always resented appropriation of the word 'gay' (happy, light-hearted) in place of 'homosexual' (same s-x). It means that two good English words not only describe corruption, but are themselves corrupted!

This 'euphemism' is really messing with the language in such a way as to pervert communication. And, as Freire says, "To impede communication is to reduce men to the status of "things"-- and this is a job for oppressors, not for revolutionaries."***

We suffer under an oppressive regime, and they are determined to do as much damage as they can before they leave office. That is, if they leave office - they really behave as if they are there to stay!!!

btw, YG - that picture is revolting! It's even worse than the one of the Duffy character.

*** Freire, Paulo. "Pedagogy of the Oppressed." New York: Continuum, 2003; 128.

22 May 2009 at 17:33  
Anonymous len said...

Satans plan is to destroy and eliminate all christian influence and teaching in the world, and he will try and do this through the European Union, which is anti-Christ to the core. The European Union is a sophisticated system designed by satan to thwart the purposes of God and the advancement of the Kingdom of God on earth.
Satan through the European Union will implement laws that are designed to stop the preaching of the full Gospel of Jesus Christ, the reason being that satan knows the power of the cross, because it was the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ that defeated him at Calvary.

22 May 2009 at 18:40  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

You really are slightly unhinged from reality len, do you know that?

22 May 2009 at 19:32  
Anonymous Maturecheese ist said...

This buggers belief,oops beggars. How they can get away with merely picking on the christians and never bringing other faiths into this a mystery to me. It could be that we are just too meek and bullies always pick on the meek. As our resident Islamists will take to the street in outraged Jihad at the drop of a hat, they leave them alone.

22 May 2009 at 20:35  
Anonymous Get Your tits Out said...


reality is an illusion.

But you guys really are a bunch of homophobic crappers. Deep down inside, everyone wishes they were a porn star. America is a bi-sexual nation living in denial all because of a bunch of nerds. A bunch of nerds that got of a boat in the 15th century and decided that sex was something to be ashamed of. All the pilgrims achieved was to ruin the American orgy of freedom.

None of this matters in the end anyway though. The nuclear holocaust will swipe the bar code of human filth from the shelves of history.

This is the way the world ends,
This is the way the world ends,
This is,
the way the world ends.
Not with a whimper,
With a Bang!

22 May 2009 at 20:56  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Thankyou your grace you have made the case for me , our rights or should i say rites are being taken from us under the guise of equality .

It is another one of those tricks of athiesm , in that put people together and they if forced get on .

Perhaps we are in for new series of "Ime a cleric in the jungle get me out of here"

It is an easy one to fall for as we are led to believe that equality will reduce hate , of course it relies on the theory that no one will have the ability to argue the case.

when queing relgious matters mean little , however wishing to purchase a ticket to a destination of your own belief causes this goverment indegestion , it is notable that they give our church no rightfull place in society or expound its teachings .To them it is a variant that is to come under the auspices of the state .

a petition is available to call for a general election from the conservative party , it would seem that I have somthing in common with the athiests after all

As for God hates fags brigade , over this side of the pond that transaltes to anti smoking campaign , i just wish you would find a less hatefull dialogue , but i do wonder if the alarm is what is required

22 May 2009 at 21:09  
Blogger Yossman said...

What right does one worldview have (secularism/humanism) over another worldview (christian faith) to force it to do something that violates its beliefs? A de facto separation of church and state (Christianity not allowed to have any bearing on the doings of the State) has been replaced by a merging of politics and religion (the humanistic worldview dominating the State under the guise of neutrality).

This ruling creates a dychotomy between preaching and practice. The preaching has no bearing on reality anymore. The preacher may preach as he wishes, while the church is forced to employ people who oppose that same preaching with their lifestyle.

In the Netherlands we are currently dealing with a similar situation. A Christian orthodox school had to send away a male teacher who now lives together with another man. In this case the minister of education has suggested the homolobby take this case to court. In effect a few days ago the Dutch homolobby has announced to take this matter to the Commission for Equal Treatment. A precedent may be created in the months to come.

Think about it. Practicing homosexuals can avoid going to Christian schools and find employment elsewhere, while the school has no other option but to allow its Christian identity to be ruined. In my opinion this is the beginning of religious persecution.

22 May 2009 at 21:10  
Anonymous Ketchup or Mayonaise said...

A paranoid schizophrenic friend of mine, who has a special gift (he sees things), told me that the future is going to be far more futuristic than what scientists originally predicted.

This translates into the mother of all anti smoking scriptural prophesy as far as contraception and abortion is concerned. Going by present trends, I would say that big money will be in the male sperm abortion market. Abortion by lethal mutant egg killing sperm.

22 May 2009 at 21:22  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is no stopping what cannot be stopped. Only God can stop it.

22 May 2009 at 21:27  
Anonymous Quantum Myspace said...

Its a noted scientific fact that fish are changing sex in huge numbers. I make this up not. All the fish are changing into females due to pollution factors entering the genetic nuclei of fish.

I am going to stick my career as a human fagot specialist on the line here and say that similar genetic pollutants are responsible for the huge burst of sexual freaks among the human genome.

Third of male fish in rivers are changing sex.

22 May 2009 at 22:05  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

And yet without the slightest sense of irony the CofE tells us that it is membership of the BNP which is incompatible with Christian teaching.

Any member of clergy who remains a member of the Labour Party should be excommunicated.

22 May 2009 at 22:17  
Blogger ZZMike said...

John: "(iii) there should be no discrimination laws."

The only discrimination that should be applied in hiring is that of merit. In housing, the ability to pay.

The "right to peaceably assemble" does not imply "the duty to peaceably assemble".

Maybe it could be worded something like "No discrimination on the basis of gender, religion (or lack of), or philosophy". Then follows the long list of exceptions: those religions that practice human sacrifice are not welcome, as are those religions that have 200 holidays a year; those whose philosophy involves the overthrow of the state; ..."

The problem with lists is (as the writers of our American Constitution noted), is that anything not on the list can be brought up.

The problem with laws (in general) is that you can't make a law that covers all situations. And we certainly should not have a law covering everyone that's based on a few extreme examples.

A sarcastic reply to the headline might be, "Well, they employ homosexual priests, so what's the big deal?"

One simple response being, no-one should be forced to employ someone they do not want to. Otherwise, we have the result (as some of your grandfathers might remember, from just after the War) that the State becomes the employment agency. Job-seekers go to the government agency, which assigns them a job based on current worker needs. Whether the applicant (supplicant?) or the company wants this arrangement is of no consequence.

I can see the first Mosque forced to employ an openly-practicing homosexual.

"Why is a card-carrying member of the Conservative Party not permitted to work for the Labour Party?"

It is at this point when your listeners lapse into name-calling and innuendo.

Perhaps a good way to test the law (should it come into effect) is for a group of men to apply for positions as advisors to Muslim Womens' groups.

22 May 2009 at 22:18  
Anonymous Ian Smith said...

My egg laying days are over before they have started. That's all I am saying.

Do you ever feel that there is a thousand people locked inside of you? But its your memory that keeps them glued together, keeps all those people from fighting one another. Maybe in the end that's all we have..the memory gospel!

22 May 2009 at 22:42  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

Quantom Myspace ... I would concur. I remember watching a documentary nearly a decade ago which reported on the very same phenomenon occurring in alligators in a particular river where chemicals were being dumped. These were the same family of chemicals that are used in the production of margarines and spreads. I have stuck to the use of real butter ever since!

22 May 2009 at 23:08  
Anonymous Ian Smith said...


I think we need to reconsider the toilet situation these days. Why is it that we have different toilets for the different sexes?

I mean to say that one theory could go like this:

If you are not a pedophile, then using the same toilets as little girls would not be any kind of theory. So, reverse this and assume that gay men have no issue seeing little boys theory of course.

But we have different toilets non the less. And I for one would feel more assured having a pee in a non gay environment. I demand the same liberties as women get in their gender specific bogs. If it is good enough for them, then I demand equality here. I don't know what the emblem would be outside of such places.

Do you get my point though. Women do not want men lurking around their loos for reasons of personal liberty. I do not want homosexual men lurking around the loos I have to use for the same reasons. Maybe this is where ID cards would be a good idea. Or micro chip implants.

22 May 2009 at 23:29  
Blogger ultramontane grumpy old catholic said...

Your Grace

If only we could revert to the spirit and letter of the Woolfenden in the early 60's whose approach was what people get up to in the privacy of their own homes is their own affair.

--- and just shut up about it and get on with their lives.

But it is not. The homosexualistas have an ongoing agenda, as was pointed out a couple of weeks ago. The Eagle continues to push this agenda.

Ah, well. When the Muslims get in charge, they'll sort them out. I'm beginning to think that dhimmi status for Christians in a caliphate is preferable to a labour government.

Support your local Imam!

22 May 2009 at 23:53  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

I am shaking my head in dibelief at some of the posts in this thread, christianity the religion of piece and love my white spotty arse.

You don't want to piss in the same toilet as a gay person because you feel they would spend their time learing and fantasising about you? I really hope the next part is sarcasm because if it isn't why stop at ID cards or miccro chip implants, why not just stop messing about and go the whole hog? You could get them all to wear pink armbands so we can identify them in the street, and every so often we can shepherd large numbers of them to the railway station take them to a nice quiet secluded part of the country and gas them, then the worl would be a better place wouldn't it?

The religious really are no better than the people the preach against and in most cases they are actuallly worse, you people sicken me.

23 May 2009 at 02:26  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

The issue is not what these perverts do in the confines of thier own homes,at least until the diseases that they contract are passed onto the population at large,the issue is the criminalisation of our right to object,for if we have no right to object we are not free men,and by our enforced silence are robbed of our freedom of choice as human beings,in every area this is being forced upon us,marxist politics has intruded into the whole sphere of our existences,and we are being bound ever tighter,and the out come is that we are forced to regard the administration as our master.

23 May 2009 at 09:49  
Blogger chris r said...

Maria preaches equality and diversity as if it is some absolute standard of morality to which all men everywhere should submit. Can anyone explain to me where this arbitrary absolute came from? I thought we lived in postmodern world in which absolutes did not exist.

23 May 2009 at 10:41  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Now who is slightly unhinged from reality?

23 May 2009 at 10:45  
Blogger chris r said...

On the subject of equality, Chris Woodhead's comments in the Telegraph about the genetic superiority of middle class children in reference to grammar school education amused me greatly.

Those who have no God have a logical difficulty reconciling their 'equality' agenda with an evolutionary account of humanity.

23 May 2009 at 10:53  
Anonymous len said...

Satan is a master at exploiting every human weakness and then turning and accusing them before God for it.
The E U puts forward its anti- christian agenda and advocates freedom of sexual expression( for want of a better word)
But be forewarned in complying with mans revised morality, bowing down to their false gods and errant doctrines, and sharing their beliefs, you will be seen as having joined them.

23 May 2009 at 11:47  
Anonymous Maturecheese said...

Well said, Englishman. What is clear to me is that Homosexuality is NOT NORMAL and should not be forced down our throats as being so. Man/woman= Normal. Queers that practised their abnormal behaviour in the past, did it behind closed doors and not in the full glare of the public and so were tolerated. What is happening now, by forcing the acceptance of homosexual behaviour upon society is probably a dangerous thing, because as with mass immigration, resentment will build up until the dam breaks.

I am sorry if I offend some people with my views and I have no wish to see Homosexuals harmed in any way, but I feel the wishes of the majority of the people in this country are NEVER taken account of these days. We have abandoned our Christian values and as such will reap the consequences.

23 May 2009 at 12:52  
Blogger ultramontane grumpy old catholic said...

'You could get them all to wear pink armbands so we can identify them in the street..' TheGlovner 2:26

Actually, no need at all for that. The homosexualistas are busy flaunting themselves - some would say proseletising.

We already have 4 poofs and a piano. (Wossy Friday night). Who knows, perhaps we will have next:

3 gays and a glockenspiel...
2 dikes and a didgeridoo..
and a pervert in a pear tree.

all singing 'You can't touch me I'm part of the queerarchy, till the day I day, till the day I die'

Perhaps I shouldnt give them ideas.

23 May 2009 at 15:37  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

TELL IT as it is. The devil is busy corrupting our language! Let us start our comments always with (re-)defining the true meaning of the words we employ!

How sick can a nation get? This is Tyranny! Separation of the Church & State: State get out of our churches! I invite you to sign my Petition on: The Voice Of God To All Nations

23 May 2009 at 16:00  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Ah so there it is, you don't want the state to have any control over your church but you want the church to have full control of the decisions of state.


23 May 2009 at 16:14  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

I don't know annon, who is slightly unhinged from reality tell me?

Is it the ones that think this is all the work of a big red man with a goats head and horns?

23 May 2009 at 16:17  
Anonymous len said...

Satan is portrayed as an angel of light promoting anything and every thing that opposes God.( all done in the name of freedom of the individual, rights of man etc, etc.)

23 May 2009 at 16:27  
Blogger David said...

TheGlovner said...'I am shaking my head in dibelief...'

This kind of comment is quite tiresome; the the last resort of a flawed, weak or failed argument is to hurl abuse and shout Nazi, fascist or racist. Soon you will be able to add kaffir to your list of abuses.

Thank you and good night ...zzz

23 May 2009 at 17:23  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Len, get a grip, satan is a figment of your imagination that allows you to blame bad things on supernatural forces so really you never have to take any responsibility as it is all down to his will.

It's a cop out.

23 May 2009 at 17:24  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Thank you for your arrogant reply david, doesn't really answer or deny the fact that they are facist statements being made though does it?

Just bury your head in the sand along with all the other catholic child bugger clergy and it will all go away, and if it doesn't it's all satans fault anyway, isn't it?

23 May 2009 at 17:26  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

'Facist statements,' Glovner? Oh no, another unacceptable prejudice.

I think Your Grace will find that Maureen Colquhoun was the first openly lesbian MP, not Ms Eagle.

23 May 2009 at 17:59  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Well if you find facisim acceptable it says a lot more about you than it does me.

23 May 2009 at 20:07  
Anonymous len said...

The Glovner,
Satans greatest achievement is to make people believe he doesn`t exist!.
It is interesting to note when satan offered Jesus Christ the kingdoms of this world in repayment for submitting to him Jesus didn`t contradict him,because satan is the god of this world.( small g)
You have to opt out of satans kingdom by being born again.
So Mr Glovner satan ( who you don`t acknowledge) owns you!.
Clever isn`t he!

23 May 2009 at 20:38  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Almost as clever as Kaiser Soze according to you.

Or the alternative. People are responsible for their own actions, not some supernatural mumbo jumbo god of gaps and I can educate myself daily through learning facts based on emperical evidence. I can choose to be a decent person accepting others for their differences and not be scared into being a good person through fear instilled in me as an impresionable child.

So I can attempt be a good person out of choice and you can attempt to be a good person (although given the content of posts in this place I see no evidence of goodness) through fear of the unknown, even if your god exists which one do you think he would
prefer to ascend to heaven?

The words you follow are not written by a god, they are written by scores of men in order to further their own ambitions at least 300 years after the "facts" that they cover. They are manipulated for the power hungry few to rule through fear and the fact that 1700 years after they came into existence people buy into this nonsense is testement to the ever failing intelligence of the human race.

23 May 2009 at 21:01  
OpenID jamestheless said...

This blog seems to be rapidly going downhill, Your Grace! I hope this post will not add to the momentum...

Satan only has as much power over us as we allow him. Forget about the horns and the tail, in fact forget about the name "Satan" - think of it instead as a little voice that nags away, encouraging you to push your luck, finding excuses for bending the rules, presenting ideas for enhancing your wealth, your ego or your power over others.

"No-one need ever know", "everyone else is doing it", "they won't miss a few quid", "it's only wrong if you get caught", "if you're fast enough/clever enough, you'll get away with it". And so on.

You've never had those thoughts? Everyone else has, even great saints, even Jesus. But if you really can't identify with them, try imagining the thought processes of an MP completing an expense return for the Fees Office. Or a Third World dictator receiving a group of Western charity workers who are offering his country a large amount of money.

Christians do not blame Satan for their sins. We will be held to account for everything we have done; "a big boy made me do it" will not be accepted.

As far as homosexuality is concerned, I think the old quote "so long as they don't do it in the streets and frighten the horses" is a good, pragmatic prescription for a nominally Christian society (can you get more Anglican than that?). The law has no business snooping around in people's bedrooms, any more than in people's minds.

I'm not sure what could usefully be said about the latest child abuse scandal. Yes, it's horrific, we're appalled and all the other things that have been said too many times before. I'm sure we all agree on that.

Personally, I'm not comfortable about using human tragedies to score polemical points. However, since it was brought up in such forceful terms, I feel obliged to point out the many examples of abuse carried out by atheists (e.g., in children's homes in the USSR).

23 May 2009 at 22:42  
Anonymous M said...

Jesus Lives! Salvation is with the Lord!

23 May 2009 at 23:12  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...


The point about children's homes in the USSR and trying to link that to Atheism is an non sequitur argument.

They did not carry out these abuses in the name of atheism. Atheism isn't even a group so it can't be compared to the church, it can be compared to the religious yes, but a comparison with the church is apples and oranges.

So how then can we hold the church responsible for what has gone on here i'm sure wil be the next point that is brought up to challenge this. Because surely it doesn't say anything about buggering children in the Christian dogma.

No it doesn't but the difference is that it does have plenty to say about not buggering children and as you are part of a group that publicly stands against these actions then it is hypocritical to practise them behind closed doors. And absolutely sickening to then cover them up.

So where maybe all people in the church did not bugger children and some people in the church have done good in the world in the name of religion these peoples actions are completely overshadowed by the church for which they represent as it is now morally bankrupt as a group for protecting their members that did carry out these actions and by standing by them the church itself is accountable.

There is now no weight whatsoever that moral integrety belongs to the religious alond, which is the argument that used to be so readily thrown out when attacking atheism and secularism.

23 May 2009 at 23:41  
OpenID jamestheless said...

The Glovner,

"The words you follow are not written by a god, they are written by scores of men in order to further their own ambitions at least 300 years after the "facts" that they cover."

Even the most sceptical scholars place the Gospels in the middle of the second century (i.e., 100 years after the Ascension). This is the date of the oldest surviving Gospel manuscript (a fragment of John) and of other manuscripts which refer to the Gospels.

"They are manipulated for the power hungry few to rule through fear and the fact that 1700 years after they came into existence people buy into this nonsense is testement to the ever failing intelligence of the human race."

As I remember, you were brought up as a Roman Catholic, so you are probably not familiar with the history of the Eastern Church.

For several hundred years, Greek Christians lived under Turkish rule. They suffered from a number of disadvantages; for example, their Churches could not be bigger than the smallest mosque, they had to pay extra taxes, and every now and then the Turks would come and take all the young men, force them to convert to Islam and serve in the Emperor's army as "Janissaries". Far from being power hungry rulers, their priests had to farm meagre strips of land alongside their parishioners (Orthodox priests are expected to marry, have large families and support them themselves).

Why didn't they convert to Islam? They would have had a much easier life and their priests would have become civic dignitaries.

Or what about Christians in the USSR? Why did they take such terrible risks, when they could just have gone along with the system? Even when the active persecutions eased off under Brezhnev, many Christians, including priests and bishops, stayed underground rather than join the compromised official Churches. Again, why?

23 May 2009 at 23:43  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

And the gospels that make up the new testemant that are treated by the religious as the word of god?

I take it these weren't a group of books rounded up by Constantine the Great in order to quell the upcoming rebelion between the Christians and the Romans that still worshiped the old gods? Which to be honest are just as believeable as your monotheistic deity.

(As a side note it's a little ironic and humerous that the word verification for this post is "Shagmor" which is exactly what the catholic chruch doesn't want if they hope to cure AID's)

23 May 2009 at 23:58  
OpenID jamestheless said...

"The point about children's homes in the USSR and trying to link that to Atheism is an non sequitur argument."

It was meant to demonstrate that being evil is not unique to Christians. Surely you accept that?

"They did not carry out these abuses in the name of atheism. Atheism isn't even a group so it can't be compared to the church, it can be compared to the religious yes, but a comparison with the church is apples and oranges."

In the form of atheism which was practised in the USSR, it was acceptable for the state to do anything it liked to "enemies of the people" - whether they be Christian, Muslim, the wrong kind of atheist, the wrong kind of Communist, someone who said the wrong thing, someone who was in the wrong place at the wrong time or just someone who annoyed their neighbour.

You will object that atheism doesn't have to be like this, and I would agree with that on an individual level. However, at the national level, it seems every state that has adopted an aggressively anti-religious stance has taken this course - the USSR, Nazi Germany, Communist China, Cambodia, and so on, on a scale that dwarfs any atrocities committed by (nominally) Christian states.

"No it doesn't but the difference is that it does have plenty to say about not buggering children and as you are part of a group that publicly stands against these actions then it is hypocritical to practise them behind closed doors. And absolutely sickening to then cover them up."

I'm not sure I follow your argument. Are you saying that it's wrong for Christians to do these things because they have dogmas saying they shouldn't do them, but it's not a problem if atheists do them because they don't have dogmas saying they shouldn't?

If this is your argument, then it amounts to saying that being hypocritical is worse than being evil. I think most people would regard that as a very warped set of priorities.

"There is now no weight whatsoever that moral integrety belongs to the religious alond, which is the argument that used to be so readily thrown out when attacking atheism and secularism."

I have not claimed anywhere that moral integrity is unique to religious believers. Such a claim would be manifestly untrue.

24 May 2009 at 00:50  
OpenID jamestheless said...

"I take these weren't a group of books rounded up by Constantine the Great in order to quell the upcoming rebelion between the Christians and the Romans that still worshiped the old gods?"

The earliest known reference to the present four Gospels was made around 180AD.

24 May 2009 at 01:07  
Anonymous len said...

Mr Glovner,
The basic fact( which seems to elude most people) is you are not a sinner because you commit individual sins,you are a sinner because you have a sin nature.It is your nature to sin!
Nothing you can do can change this nature, no amount of "trying to be good".
Admittedly there are good sinners and bad sinners, but they are all sinners.( whoever wants to be the best sinner that went to hell?)No amount of education will change this nature.
Gods remedy is to remove this sin nature and to give you a new nature( born again)
I have presented the facts to you Mr Glovner, what you do with them is entirely up to you.
We live in a period of Gods grace when he offers salvation for all who would take it, this period of grace will not last for ever.

I thank you for your patience Your Grace.

24 May 2009 at 07:03  
Anonymous Preacher said...

Your Grace.
As the present government sinks into a pit of its own slurry like a souffle in a peat bog, its death throes can at least be advantageous to the church by forcing us to stand up & be counted over these issues, do we serve God or man? Are we prepared to stand against a law made by sinful man against the word of God irrespective of the consequences?
We know what this government stands for, so there are no surprises. The world will be watching for our response, stand firm & see the deliverance of the Lord who can bring good out of evil.

24 May 2009 at 09:10  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well done, Glovner. I make a joke about you writing 'facist' when you mean 'fascist' and you accuse me of supporting 'fascisism' when you mean 'fascism.' You really are a very stupid person, you know.

24 May 2009 at 09:40  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry, Glovner, I see that you wrote 'facisim,' not 'fascisism.' I wouldn't want to misquote your illiteracy.

24 May 2009 at 09:44  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Ah I see, so mispelling when there is no ability to edit a post means that your are correct? Or does it just go to prove the earlier point I made about arrogance?

The message is the important part I would have thought you would agree with that?

And mispelling on the internet hardly counts as illiteracy.

But like the normal attitude shown by the religious you just go one thinking you are superior, i'll just go on living my life without hurting others and enjoying myself, in the end you will have wasted the time you have on this earth and I will have made the most of mine.

24 May 2009 at 18:18  
Anonymous len said...

I would not consider myself religious ,I am however a born again christian.
As for being superior it takes a considerable amount of humility to admit you cannot save yourself and you need a saviour!
Our time on this earth will be relatively short and the decisions we make here determine our future when we step out of time into eternity.
I wish you well.

24 May 2009 at 21:19  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How do you know I'm religious, Glovner? The same way you know how to spell facist? Very dim, even for a lefty.

24 May 2009 at 22:15  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Good way of destroying your own argument, how do you know I am lefty?

I make the assumption that you are religious given that you are trying to turn the debate away from established religion and use smoke and mirrors to save answering the important question, which is the usual attitude for the religious.

As for me being a lefty, well far from it, there are some points that I would have a left attitude towards and some I would swing to the right, reason being I make my own mind up based on the available facts rather than being told what to believe and doing eveything I am told like a good little follower.

26 May 2009 at 12:55  

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