Wednesday, October 14, 2009

Rome, Relics, Royalty and Rowan

It is strange, is it not, that the relics of a saint are touring the UK, resting even in Anglican cathedrals to ‘joyful applause’ (while her thigh and foot went to Wormwood Scrubs); the Duke of Edinburgh is paying homage in Walsingham; Cardinal Newman is on the path to sainthood; Pope Benedict XVI is about to make the first ever papal state visit to these shores; the Queen has reportedly ‘grown increasingly sympathetic’ to the Roman Catholic Church while being ‘appalled’, along with the Prince of Wales, at developments in the Church of England...

...and the Archbishop of Canterbury is preaching about how setting up ‘carbon reduction action groups’ would help people to ‘reconnect with the world’ and ‘become human again’.


Blogger Gnostic said...

This is what happens when you appoint a senior prelate as scientifically inept and politically motivated as Beardy, Your Grace. He sides with the wolves who are tearing their way through his flock. Need I point out that the Prime Minister, one Anthony Blair, played a key role in Beardy's promotion?

I rest my case.

14 October 2009 at 09:15  
Blogger McKenzie said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

14 October 2009 at 09:15  
Blogger McKenzie said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

14 October 2009 at 09:17  
Anonymous Edgar. said...

39 Articles XXII:

'The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.'

14 October 2009 at 09:34  
Blogger Albert said...

Perhaps it's time for Archbishop Cranmer to recant...again.

14 October 2009 at 09:40  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Good morning, Mack. Maybe we could blog over breakfast sometime? :D

14 October 2009 at 09:45  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace,

Would you Adam ‘n’ Eve it?

So the Pope is coming on an official State visit to here is he? And the Grand Mufti of Canterbury is advising us to grow more cabbages?

Can’t the Archbishop and Her Majesty the Queen (as Defender of the Faith) demand an apology for the Catholic siege of La Rochelle (1627-8)?

We need some action here.

14 October 2009 at 09:50  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

All the Catholic communicants on this site will be pleased.Like the
prodigal son England is finally returning to the fold.Commendable effort for trying to resist for five hundred years but it seems you are losing. I don't think Mr.Blair's bogus conversion helped your situation but never mind somewhere down the track someone will get jack of it all and the Reformation can start all over again.It's probably better than being Islamic which is your next choice!

14 October 2009 at 10:18  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

Well,well,Gnostic and McKenzie.I believe this is the first blossoming of romance on His Grace's site.What next!

14 October 2009 at 10:25  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Sydneysider,

"Now you understand of course that when I speak of toleration and free expression I don't mean Catholics. Them we extirpate".

John Milton (1608-1674)


14 October 2009 at 10:29  
Anonymous The Early Worm Gets the Bird said...

Hail Mary Full of Grace..!

14 October 2009 at 10:43  
Blogger D. Singh said...

What the blazes is that?????

14 October 2009 at 10:45  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

Mr. Singh...All this talk of extirpation..froth an bubble.The castle doors are being besieged by the battling rams..there will be a
rush on rosary beads and first,get in quick!Grumps and the Recusant have got them for for Cranmer communicants!

14 October 2009 at 10:47  
Anonymous oiznop said...

I wish Rowan Williams would reconnect with his church and become Anglican again.

14 October 2009 at 10:48  
Blogger D. Singh said...

What next Mr Sydneysider?

Indulgences for sale?

And where the Dickens is Martin Luther?

14 October 2009 at 10:54  
Blogger Preacher said...

Just had a fresh look at Revelations 17 & 18. yep it's all there, no surprise really, the way things have been going. Apostates & Heretics plus corrupt money hungry politicos & merchants. Well it looks like the true believers will HAVE to stand up & be counted soon. I'll take my stand with the King of Kings, you know the one; He rose from the dead on the third day pity He didn't leave any old bones or other relics for the lost to worship or venerate. No wonder the Bible was banned & burned by Rome for so long if it has so much info about the fate of so many in it! watch this space folks for more news. Thank you Your Grace, I'm afraid you might have to make room for one more on the bonfire, but I'll see you at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

14 October 2009 at 10:56  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Mr. Sydneysider, is that a soupcon of envy I detect in your post?


14 October 2009 at 10:59  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

Gnostic and McKenzie can both convert to Catholicism and that will give them something in common!
You could invite recusant over and he could read Bishop Sheen's speeches to your children as bedtime stories.Auntie Joanna can supply the cartoon colouring in books of Pope Blair and the Empress
Cherie Choufleur!

14 October 2009 at 11:00  
Anonymous sydneysider said...


14 October 2009 at 11:06  
Blogger D. Singh said...

And another thing, Mr Sydneysider; because Rome interfered with the Irish vote on the Lisbon Treaty – the new imperial power composed of a ruling iron elite over men of clay – the EU – is not going to forgive Rome.

Rome will be finished by this fascist Empire of the Beast.

14 October 2009 at 11:07  
Anonymous Anabaptist said...

But has anybody looked into the carbon composition of relics?

14 October 2009 at 11:13  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Yes they have Mr Anabaptist:

See the excellent work by Professor Crayton Yapp:

Department of Geological Sciences, Southern Methodist University, Dallas, Texas 75275

14 October 2009 at 11:16  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Mr S. Is this an appropriate place to share your most intimate fantasies?


14 October 2009 at 11:19  
Blogger D. Singh said...

What the Devil was that?

14 October 2009 at 11:19  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What did Mashiak say again? Oh yes whitewashed sepulchures full of dead mens bones' kindo of sums up the rc and ce church really. Come out and be seperate !!!! Yeshua ha Mashiak saves not any church, not any religious organisation governed by such men.

14 October 2009 at 11:31  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Mr. Singh, I believe it is called a light-hearted off topic response to a light-hearted off topic post. Otherwise known as jocularity. :D

14 October 2009 at 11:34  
Blogger Preacher said...

Anon 11.31
Good to see a messianic believer on here, Welcome.

14 October 2009 at 11:41  
Blogger Frugal Dougal said...

I hope Dr Williams is aware of the slow drift of Anglicanism towards a pantheist worldview as theology and ecology intermarry.

14 October 2009 at 11:41  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Sydneysider, who I understand will shortly be visiting this country, and our friends in the following territories: Guinea-Bissau, Andorra, Liechtenstein, Greenland, Cook Islands, Burkina Faso, Northern Mariana Islands, Niger, Solomon Islands, Samoa, French Polynesia, Cape Verde, Mali, and Lao People's Democratic Republic.

When driving in England please ignore all signs that state: ‘KEEP LEFT’ or ‘STAY LEFT’. That is all government propaganda issued by our socialist State. IGNORE THEM.

14 October 2009 at 11:44  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Ms Gnostic – I took it all in good jest. It’s just that, at times, I get the urge to sneak up behind Mr Sydneysider with a piece of piano wire – wrap it around his neck – and shout: ‘Yell out if it hurts!’

14 October 2009 at 11:52  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Mr. Singh - :D

Alas, time for me to get my derriere into gear. Thanks, peeps, for sending me out into the great wide with a smile on my face.

14 October 2009 at 11:59  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

Just who do you think you are Mr Singh? Lord Ahmed! Breaking traffic regulations and inciting violence!These continental torture fantasies of yours are also becoming a concern.I suggest you settle down with a nice cup of tea and bore the pants off everyone by
reciting yet another 28 verses of the psalms.

14 October 2009 at 12:01  
Blogger D. Singh said...


14 October 2009 at 12:05  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace,

I am sick and tired of our Archbishop of Canterbury yapping on and on about every subject dear to the radical undergraduate heart.

No one has yet proved to the satisfaction standard of belief that global warming is in fact occurring. It appears that NASA scientists (I believe) suggest that recently there has been a global drop in temperatures.

Here is a little snippet about what may really be happening:
Quoting from the prophecy found in the Bible Book of Revelation 7:1-3 we read the following: “After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
Man’s limited understanding causes him to be skeptical of this prophecy by immediately questioning the statement about the angels standing at “the four corners of the earth.” But God’s truth is always greater than the limited understanding of men as is proven by this article from the June 19, 1965 edition of Science Newsletter (#87:390) which is titled, “Earth Has Four Corners.”
Quoting from this article, which was recovered from microfilm at the Colorado Springs, Pikes Peak Library, we read the following: “The Earth has four corners, measurements made of earth-circling satellites have shown…The four-cornered, or pyramid-like, design was found by calculating the changes in the orbits of globe-girdling satellites. At the center of the high points, the satellites were pulled downward a few hundred feet by the unexpectedly high gravity…The new figure for earth was found by scientists at John Hopkin’s Applied Physics Laboratory in Silver Spring, Md., working under a contract for the U.S. Navy’s Bureau of Naval Weapons.”
The report included a world map that shows all four of the Earth’s high corners are located in the Earth’s oceans and that there are also four low spots, which are additionally found in the vast oceans. Each of the high spots covers several thousand square miles of ocean and were a staggering 220 feet “higher” than what the equalized average depth of the ocean should be in that area. The low points on the other hand are apx. 253 feet “below” [what should be] the stabilized oceans average.
The perplexing question is, “What is holding back these seething mountains of water from rushing to fill the low spots?”
The basic understanding of gravity demands that these elevated waters respond to its downward pull.
The scientifically supported answer is found revealed clearly in God’s Word. Quoting from Rev. Ch. 7:1 we once more read the following prophecy: “After these things I

14 October 2009 at 12:31  
Blogger D. Singh said...

saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.”
According to David Ebaugh, an Electronics Engineer who worked with the very first satellites to discover the 4 ocean high points, it was determined that prevailing winds are producing surface friction upon the water, which in turn causes these thousands of square miles of ocean to mass up to such great heights.
Four major jetstreams were not only found to be the cause of the high spots as they curve upward, but that they also cause the low spots where the winds blow downward, pushing the water away.
The obvious question of paramount importance is, “What will happen when the 4 angels of God stop these winds from blowing?”
Reading in the latter part of verse 2 of Rev. 7 we find the answer to this question, “And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea.” These words are more incredible proof that the only true God is warning a rebellious world of things to come.
When the winds stop blowing as prophesied, all of the oceans will seek their own level. Tidal waves of truly monstrous proportions will form as thousands upon thousands of square miles of ocean race with incredible building momentum towards the low spots. When the tremendous accumulated kinetic energy from these tidal waves crash against and over the low lying continents and islands, vast areas of land will suddenly disappear.
Landmasses averaging just over 200 ft. above sea level will suddenly become oceans, seas and great salt lakes. Crustal changes will take place upon the earth under the great pressures and violent redistribution of the earth’s waters. Land will suddenly appear where it has not been seen since the great flood of Noah’s day as presently heightened ocean locations retreat to new areas.
Most certainly the earth will be harmed in that day, but then what of the sea?
As the waters cover the landmasses, inconceivable pollution of the Oceans will take place as toxic waste dumps, nuclear plants, chemical factories and sewage plants are suddenly submerged under water.
After the energy of the tidal waves is exhausted and the waters retreat to ocean average, the injury will continue as arable lands, lakes, streams and aquifers remain contaminated by toxic pollutants, decaying animals and of course, salt.
To our knowledge no calculations are presently available as to how large of tidal waves will be produced by this devastating judgment from God, nor how far inland the initial momentum of the raging waters will invade affected continents.
As may have been realized by now, the critical factor of who will receive the brunt of these cataclysms is determined by where a land mass is found in relationship to where the low spots of the Oceans are located.

14 October 2009 at 12:31  
Blogger D. Singh said...

The Ocean’s high spots are located off of Ireland, Peru, Madagascar and the Philippines.
The first two low points are found off of India and Antarctica.
The last two are found off of the East and West coasts of North America by California and Florida.
Consider the following examples for what lies in store for the United States: California is 74 ft. below what will be future ocean average, Florida is 187 ft. below and Washington is 212 ft. below.
In Rev. 7:1 God also made mention that the winds will not blow “on any tree.” Keep this in mind when considering the complications which will arise with crop pollination.
Additionally, what will become of the weather patterns and those who are trapped under bubbles of stationary air pollution when God stops the winds? Of significant interest to prophecy students is the fact that when this judgment takes place, roughly in the middle of the prophesied final 7 years before Christ returns, is that the remaining geographic regions which will be undamaged by the initial Tsunamis are those very same areas which are prophesied to be competing for global control during the final half of the 7 year tribulation!
The stimulus and opportunity for world dominion will be obvious as the entire face of the earth is reconfigured.

14 October 2009 at 12:32  
Anonymous Hank Petram said...

Can’t the Archbishop and Her Majesty the Queen (as Defender of the Faith) demand an apology for the Catholic siege of La Rochelle (1627-8)?

D. Singh, the Huguenots weren't Anglicans, they were Calvinists.

The idea of "Protestants v. Catholics" is an oversimplification. In the Wars of Religion, some of the German Lutheran states sent troops to fight alongside Richelieu's army against the Huguenots.

14 October 2009 at 13:38  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...


Whereas I would quite happily observe the fall of the catholic church I don't know if kneeling to a European parliment would be worth it.

At least I can treat the church's stupid laws with the contempt they deserve, not as easy to do when the laws are supported by baton wielding thugs in full riot gear.

14 October 2009 at 13:41  
Anonymous Morus said...

Best. Comment Thread. EVER.

14 October 2009 at 13:45  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Petram,

Thank you for that knowledge. You have permitted me to sit on your shoulders this afternoon - so that I can see a little further than my fellow posters.

14 October 2009 at 14:17  
Anonymous Hank Petram said...

The way things are going under the oaf Rowan’s “leadership”, it can’t be long before the poor old C of E implodes, scattering its remaining faithful to the four winds. Benedict, I suspect, is already putting the Vatican on standby so that the Catholic Church will be ready at any moment to give sanctuary to the survivors – who knows, the Queen and Prince Philip among them?

14 October 2009 at 14:25  
Anonymous Hank Petram said...

D. Singh, thank you for your flattering words, but they are wholly undeserved. If it's a question of seeing further, you'd be better off investing in a pair of binoculars.

14 October 2009 at 14:35  
Blogger D. Singh said...


Get thee behind me, thou foul fiendish emissary of Beelzebub!

14 October 2009 at 14:37  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Petram – I can assure you – it is far better standing on the shoulders of intellectual giants.

14 October 2009 at 14:43  
Blogger Preacher said...

With regards to the amalgamation of the CofE & Rome, it will probably work, the fox & the goose get on well together, as long as the goose is inside the fox.

14 October 2009 at 14:45  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Far-right Dutch MP Geert Wilders plans to visit the UK on Friday after successfully appealing against a Home Office ban on him entering the country.

14 October 2009 at 15:08  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Appologies for the breaking news in this over excited reaction. I have posted in proper thread so this one can be deleted Your Grace

14 October 2009 at 15:12  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

Mr Petram,your advice to Mr.Singh is very sound.It would be more efficacious for him to use binoculars or take up a sport like bungy jumping ( finally a use for the round head helmet)rather than clambering up on the shoulders of
intellectuals or attempting to strangle other Christians with piano wire!Mr. Wilders is against this type of behaviour,I believe.

14 October 2009 at 15:15  
Anonymous Ronan said...

Those aren't actually Anglican Cathedrals.

14 October 2009 at 15:28  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Sydneysider,

Geert Wilders hobbies are redaing and writing.

There. He has two pastimes in common with all of us.

14 October 2009 at 15:40  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Why Singh, you elevate me to the lofty heights of an emissary of a god (a demi-god I admit, but a god none the less).

I am not worthy, simply because I have no belief in the devil either.

But thanks all the same.

14 October 2009 at 15:48  
Anonymous len said...

One thing religion cannot do and that is impart Life.
Only the Lord Jesus can do that through the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Mr Glovner,
You keep saying in effect" I cannot see, I cannot see"
You are in this respect quite right!

John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.

Please closely observe the wording in the above verse. When someone loves God and obeys Him, then God reveals Himself. But that is not what skeptics and doubters want. They want God to show Himself so they can examine Him and make up their minds whether He is acceptable or not (Matt. 12:38 and 39). Well, the skeptics and doubters did not make the rules. God is the Living God, and He is also the Loving God. He wants a relationship with people, but, like us humans, He wants a relationship with those who honor Him and believe Him. He will not “show up to be examined” by the skeptic. Skeptics often laugh at believers and call them gullible, naive, wishful thinkers, easily fooled, etc., because they do not see or understand what the believer does. This is not new. Christ spoke very openly about the fact that people who do not belong to God cannot “hear” the truth. He told the Pharisees who did not believe in him they could not hear him because they did not belong to God :1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

14 October 2009 at 17:45  
Anonymous churchmouse said...

No chance el papa's bringing all those parchment treaties with him - so we can tear them up and forgive the euro-bureau?

Thought not. So lets just find lots of ways of telling him: ROME GO HOME.

14 October 2009 at 17:50  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Mr Glovner,
You keep saying in effect" I cannot see, I cannot see"
You are in this respect quite right!


What I am in effect saying is that there is nothing to see, so I won't waste my time looking for it.

What you are saying is that your big brother told you there are fairies,it must be true because your bro is great, so you will believe what he told you no matter what anyone else says, ever.

And when everyone one else grows up out of childhood and stops believing in all the other fantasies that make seem so believable as a child and begin to understand the real workings of the world (although it would be rather egotistical for them to think that they will understand everything, but it would seem silly to put the answers they don't have down to magic), when they all reach this point, then some pity you for holding on to what your brother told you, some ridicule you, some scorn you and some try to teach you that your brothers word is not (if you will pardon the pun) gospel and others just accept that peoples brains work differently.

But all of them cannot be bothered when you throw a tantrum proclaiming that your brother is right and everyone else is wrong and you should get your own way.

14 October 2009 at 18:06  
Anonymous len said...

You illustrate my point perfectly!
because I can see nothing there can be nothing ! How arrogant, how blind.

14 October 2009 at 18:42  
Blogger ultramontane grumpy old catholic said...

This Grumps hasn't any rosary beads for sale but here is a link to a site which sells Pope Benedict Beer Steins. There's also a very nice line in trucker caps with the word 'Papist' prominently displayed.

Wear one to get noticed in certain parts of Belfast.

PS. don't rush Mr Glovner there are plenty for everyone.

14 October 2009 at 19:05  
Blogger ZZMike said...

It's about time that Cardinal Newman was recognized.

I feel compelled to note that my namesake, Father Damien, is being canonized.

But I'm still a little uneasy about this relic thing. I read recently that they found one of Galileo's fingers.

I weep for the good Doctor Williams. He's obviously gone barmy. It's possible that he finds so little comfort in his own religion that he's been shopping around for a better one, and found it in the Evangelical Church of Climate Change.

[I note that the article was written by the Grauniad's "religious affairs correspondent", one Riazat Butt, who just happens to be "the presenter of's Muslim podcast, Islamophonic and a Fellow of the RSA" (that's the Royal Society for the encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce). You probably know more than I about this worthy group, but not everybody seems impressed.

Some wonder how a venerable Society (formed 1754) for "Arts, Manufactures and Commerce" has devolved into a group promoting "Removing the barriers to social progress", "the RSA seeks to develop and promote new ways of thinking about human fulfilment and social progress".

An October event is described as:

"Join Professor Graciela Chichilnisky, one of the leading architects of the Kyoto Protocol, as she outlines how the carbon market can help to close the global income divide whilst resolving the climate crisis"

We can do this whilst holding hands in a big circle and singing "Rule, Gaia, Gaia rules the Earth".

I agree with D Singh: "I am sick and tired of our Archbishop of Canterbury yapping on and on about every subject dear to the radical undergraduate heart."

There's an old saying, something like "carpenter, stick to your last".

I think we'd rather he went yapping on and on about something he knows, such as doctrine.

Churchmouse: "So lets just find lots of ways of telling him: ROME GO HOME."

All the better to accomodate your Mulsim brothers. Who will soon be your keepers.

14 October 2009 at 20:02  
Anonymous Ron Todd said...

Worshiping a dead persons bones in a box.
Is this still the 21st century or are we savages howling at the thunder.

14 October 2009 at 20:03  
Blogger The Young Oligarch said...

In my lifetime the Anglican church has gone from having "vicars" as its clergy to "priests" .
I believe at some point in the distant past they had "ministers".
Surely bowing the knee before the Pope of Rome and worshiping the earthly remains of dead people is the culmination of this theological journey .

14 October 2009 at 20:46  
Anonymous len said...

It is interesting and somewhat sad that a corpse( or at least the bones of the departed ) are given more attention than the living risen Christ.
And perhaps a reflection on the state of the church!

One last question Mr Glovner, Jesus asked this of the disciples but it is still relevant today and it is a question everyone will answer in one way or another.
Jesus asks" Who do you say I am?

14 October 2009 at 21:10  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear Young Oligarch,

Point of Order - ministers of the Gospel in the Church of England are first ordained deacons, then they are ordained as priests (see Book of Common Prayer). They can then be appointed Vicar of a parish (ie administering to the faithful whilst enjoying the lessor tithes) or Rector (holding the Greater Tithes). A curate is a priest in Holy Orders who assists a vicar in his duties. Hope that helps.

14 October 2009 at 21:31  
Anonymous the recusant said...

Mr ZZMike,

Its "cobbler, stick to your last", not carpenter, a last is a frame to put shoes on while making or mending them. As it happens though cobblers seems to appropriate for many of His Graces responses today, I wonder if that’s what he intended, still has to be a bit worrying for the old dust pile now the wind of Rome is blowing through. It is a great honour to be the namesake of Saint Damien of Molokai, a truly great man, I recommend you read his life story, or at least the letter written by Robert Louis Stevenson in response to Reverend C. M. Hyde when he referred to Father Damien as "a coarse, dirty man" whose leprosy should be attributed to his "carelessness", ouch!

Mr Ron Todd & Mr The Young Oligarch,

No Catholic worships the bones of St. Therese of Lisieux, that would be idolatry numbnuts. Veneration on the other hand has a whole different meaning; I suggest you learn it before showing the world your ignorance next time.

Mr sydneysider and len,

Glad you’re still about, I hear the seminaries are full to bursting in Aus since the Popes visit last year, bet your looking forward to that, Wonder if it will happen here next year. Great days are a-coming, great things are a-happnin’ halleluiah. Rosary beads eh! Very funny, at least you didn’t trot out that hooey about vain repetition, small mercies.

14 October 2009 at 21:31  
Anonymous churchmouse said...

ZZ - so the choice lies between the euSSR (Treaties of rome and lisbon, held at rome, I believe) and the mozzies? No hope of re-acquiring the independence we've enjoyed for the last 500 years?

Payment of various tithes to rome was another thing we shed at the Reformation. Doubtless those will be reinstated and added to the 55 billion (sterling) a year we donate to the eu coffers.
And when we can't pay any more? Maybe they'll just take over the rest of the real estate - and yes, probably give it to mozzies anyway!

So I still say tell the Nazi henchman -- get out.

14 October 2009 at 21:32  
Blogger Terry Hamblin said...

The good old C of E is in error over 'priests' You don't have to be ordzained one. The Bible tells us that all Christians are a Holy priesthood 1Peter Ch 2.

14 October 2009 at 23:17  
Blogger The Young Oligarch said...

Mrs.Proudie of Barchester -

Thank you for your helpful information .
Curates have had a bad reputation in Scotland since their brief tenure in the Killing Time .
I do not understand , however , how the ordination of priests squares with the priesthood of all believers , but I am a member of another church and your ways are strange to me .

My information on the Church of England has been entirely provided by the BBC . The transformation of vocabulary is therefore theirs . Indeed , it was brought to my attention when the revolt against Communism in Romania , led by a Calvinist minister , was attributed to the actions of a "priest".

Mr.recusant numbnuts (a term of RC esteem , surely ?)

Veneration is not worship ?

Let me quote Lewis and Short's Latin Dictionary -

"veneror -to reverence , worship , adore , revere , venerate"

Seems like the same thing to me and millions who are not subject to the
"erroneous decrees of Trent".

But , then again , you knew that .

P.S. I'm a Catholic too , just not a Roman Catholic .

15 October 2009 at 02:43  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

You'll have to excuse Recusant. He doesn't seem to have that relaxed,secure confidence that established Catholics have like Grumps and Olly. The recent arrival is always on alert for imagined attacks.The numbnuts he is referring to are his own.

15 October 2009 at 03:41  
Anonymous not a mouse said...

I just checked out this 'saint' and can't figure out why she is one! Poor neurotic little rich girl who apparently spoke and wrote some affective piety for simple-minded peasants or industrial workers?

Ah that's it. Simple-minded industrial workers. That must be why they think she's the right one to appeal to us....

15 October 2009 at 04:35  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

Yes,come to think of it,the increased intake at seminaries are probably factory workers from the third world countries desperate for an education and three meals a day. I wonder if there is any criterion other than being male and Catholic for entry into a seminary.Does one need to give proof of vocational calling e.g.
noting down the time and dates one was called by God or the Guardian Angel to take up this career path and what was actually said? Or is it just a touchy feely thing?

It would be interesting to evaluate the entrance examination if indeed there is one. I presume literacy(in English) and numeracy would be required at some level.Perhaps Recusant the self appointed Catholic consultant can enlighten us on these matters?

15 October 2009 at 05:57  
Anonymous Ron Todd said...


So sure of your faith that you will not proclaim it under your real name.

Some people have a more sophisticated theology than others.
A lot of the people that go to see the bones and perhaps more importantly for the church put money in the collecting plate, will not have a clear distinction between worship or venerate. Idiot that I am I struggle to see a clear distinction myself.

To be made a saint somebody has to pray to a dead person and get cured.

If they prayed to a dead person and did not get cured would that be necromancy and heresy?

15 October 2009 at 06:03  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

To give the Recusant his due,he does have a lot of knowledge about Catholicism that ordinary Catholics
don't appear to have.Catholics don't seem to know a lot about their own religion. Maybe it's a good thing not to know...'where ignorance is bliss tis ..

It's OK for Anglicans because the
Archbishop of Canterbury doesn't seem to know too much about what Anglicanism is supposed to be either.

However Catholicism is rigid and set in stone and less complicated.I think it is Recusant's Christian duty to share his information.If he does it skillfully he might get a convert out of it and what better forum than this,maybe even you Ron or Mr. Singh?

15 October 2009 at 06:38  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Sydneysider,

You do make good points about Anglicanism and Catholicism. I suppose that’s why the famous novelist Graham Greene (1904 -1991) found the ‘certainty’ of Rome attractive.

‘I sat on my bed and I said to God: You've taken her, but you haven't got me yet. I know Your cunning. It's You who take us up to a high place and offer us the whole universe. You're a devil, God, tempting us to leap. But I don't want Your peace and I don't want Your love. I wanted something very simple and very easy: I wanted Sarah for a lifetime and You took her away. With Your great schemes You ruin our happiness like a harvester ruins a mouse's nest: I hate You, God, I hate You as though You existed.’

The End of the Affair (1951)

15 October 2009 at 08:00  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

A very interesting quote Mr Singh.
But who wants to takes the easy way out with everything so certain? A thinking person ,the one who lives a life examined needs more of a challenge than this and never bends to the yoke
willingly and never without questioning.

15 October 2009 at 08:11  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

From David Lonsdale

Syneysider you said,

"However Catholicism is rigid and set in stone and less complicated."
Purgatory was only introduced in the late 6th century and transsubstantiation was not set in stone until around the 1200s. The ascension of Mary was a recent 20th century heresy.
The heresy of limbo is another recent example of change because limbo became inconvenient. In 1905 Pope Pius X stated: "Children who die without being baptised go to limbo, where they don't enjoy God, but don't suffer either, because whilst carrying the original sin... they don't deserve paradise but neither do they deserve hell or purgatory."
The current Pope has cancelled limbo because the Pontifical Household decided that the concept of limbo may not impress potential converts. Has God changed his mind?

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Jesus In John 8:32
"To the law and to the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20)
At the Reformation in the 16th Century these heresies were repudiated as having no part in the Religion of Jesus as taught in the New Testament.

15 October 2009 at 08:42  
Blogger D. Singh said...

“We're not necessarily doubting that God will do the best for us; we are wondering how painful the best will turn out to be”

C. S. Lewis

15 October 2009 at 08:53  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

Sorry but who could take the concept of limbo seriously ever? Generally speaking the Catholic Church is known for being constant and unbending in its beliefs and evidently this gives comfort to many people.I am not one of these and don't understand it at all!There are educated Catholics but maybe they don't practise their faith because of all the facts that you have mentioned in your post.I don't know any practising
Catholics so I can't say. They couldn't possibly believe any of this.I bet Recusant has problems with this stuff.Wasn't this all manufactured for uneducated peasants in the dark ages?

15 October 2009 at 09:01  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

Mr.Singh this C S Lewis quote is the best reason I can think of for
being an Anglican rather than a Catholic.

15 October 2009 at 09:12  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

"You illustrate my point perfectly!
because I can see nothing there can be nothing ! How arrogant, how blind."

Once mor misrepresentation of what I actually said.

Because I see nothing, and nothing is shown to me what is the point of thinking nothing is something and searching for it, would be a little closer to what I actually said. But as usual you oversimplfy, reach an incorrect conclusion then mock and scorn.

Far from arrogance. I believe it was Socrates that said, "wisest is she who knows she does not know". I admit 100 percent I do not know everything, that would be the arrogant position, one that we have discussed many times and you have shown that you occupy.

So I don't know everything and that troubles me, so I want to use my gift of a thinking mind to know and understand more. So I search for truths and answers. But not any answers, absolute answers. Your god is a theory on life, but far from an absolute answer. And a theory that is backed up by very little.

I suppose you could think of me as having a philosophical mind, and you the mind of a sophist.

"One last question Mr Glovner, Jesus asked this of the disciples but it is still relevant today and it is a question everyone will answer in one way or another.
Jesus asks" Who do you say I am?"

I think a better, far deeper, more insightful and important question to be asking would be "who am I?" rather than concerning ourselves with who someone else is.


"Wasn't this all manufactured for uneducated peasants in the dark ages?"

Funny you should ask that, and if you expand what you are referring to you would be spot on.

All forms of christianity, islam, sikh, hindu all religions, they all form side of the same coin.

It is just saddening that that coin is still accepted currency in this day and age.

15 October 2009 at 09:52  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Glovner

15 October 2009 at 10:16  
Blogger D. Singh said...

‘There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way."’

C. S. Lewis

15 October 2009 at 10:17  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Mr Singh.

You seem to quote C.S. Lewis so much it verges on idolisation.

Does you god not speak ill of that?

There are many other far greater thinkers than C.S.Lewis and many of these do not agree with his views at all, but just because you do you quote him endlessly as if that makes your claims factual.

There are far more than two types of people in the world and I doubt the internet itself would be large enough to catalouge them all. So once more the religious oversimplfy the matter.

15 October 2009 at 10:49  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Glovner,

Your posts seem to obey the following rules:

1. Sentences can be meaningful and are not just a series of marks.
2. Human beings can apprehend the propositional content of written sentences.
3. Human beings can be in the condition of either accepting, rejecting, or suspending belief concerning propositions.
4. Logical laws exist.
5. Human beings are capable of apprehending logical laws.
6. The state of accepting the truth of a proposition can play a causal role in producing other beliefs, and that propositional content is relevant to the playing of this causal role.
7. The apprehension of logical laws plays a causal role in the acceptance of the conclusion of an argument as true.
8. Persons exist throughout the moments of time required for a rational inference to be performed.

If you agree then you mislead the reader when you write:

‘Because I see nothing, and nothing is shown to me what is the point of thinking nothing is something and searching for it,…’

For you certainly assume that when you write that you and your reader will accept those rules.

That is why your musings seem so comical.

[My acknowledgement to V. Reppert]

15 October 2009 at 11:07  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

Glovner dumping all the religions in the waste paper basket and not making any distinctions between them shows a lack of intellectual rigour a paucity of ratiocination and a contempt for humanity in general.Incidently C S Lewis was regarded as the greatest intellect of his time and widely
respected by all the Christian denominations.

15 October 2009 at 11:51  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

I'm not dumping them in any wastpaper basket, I accept that at a time when people didn't have the intelligence they have today then religions were a worthwile tool for filling the gaps.

But the more intelligent man becomes the less need there is for religion and we now live in a time when there is no reason to take religions teachings over logical evidence.

Religion provides a god of gaps and the gaps get smaller by the day.

Of course he was because he supported the Christian denominations, why would they ever respect someone that didn't back up their illogical suppositions.

In reply to Mr Singh.

The reason I have these musings is beacuse I have an enquiring mind and seek to find knowledge. I don't know everything which is why debate. All I ever get from yourself and len however is preaching.

Preaching would imply you know things I do not and is a rather arrogant position to take when you can't prove any of your statements concerning your god which is what you believe give you the right to preach.

If you find them comical from up on high where you proclaim to know the truth then again I would say, that tells a lot more about you than it does me.

15 October 2009 at 12:29  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Glovner,

You have stated: ‘There is no meaning.’ The difficulty for you is that in order for you to arrive at that conclusion (judgment) is that at some point you must have had a conception of what is ‘meaning’ so that you now ‘know’ that ‘There is no meaning’.

Again, for you to say that there are ‘no lions’ you must have had a conception of what a ‘lion’ is.

"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning. . ."

C. S. Lewis in Mere Christianity

15 October 2009 at 13:00  
Blogger Roger Pearse said...

But is it worth the effort for Rowan to become human again? Think of the endless operations to remove his self-satisfaction, his smarm, his self-satisfaction, and his self-satisfaction. It could only be a long and painful business, with no certainty of success. Don't do it, Beardy; learn to love the skin you're in, repulsive as it is to normal people.

15 October 2009 at 13:35  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

"You have stated: ‘There is no meaning.’ The difficulty for you is that in order for you to arrive at that conclusion (judgment) is that at some point you must have had a conception of what is ‘meaning’ so that you now ‘know’ that ‘There is no meaning’.

Again, for you to say that there are ‘no lions’ you must have had a conception of what a ‘lion’ is."

Yes I have stated that, but I accept that it is my opinion based on the available evidence, I wouldn't be so arrogant to suggest that catagorically there is no meaning and nothing can prove otherwise.

The 'meaning' that I suggest there isn't, is the 'meaning' that is claimed by the religious. This notion that we are created by a god who has any interest in our being whatsoever. Nothing I have ever seen, felt or whatever has given me the "faith" that this is the case. We are so insiginificant in such a wonderfuld massive universe that the fact that something created this whole thing would take an interest in our lives is an idea that just doesn't sit with me.

If I say there is no such thing as lions, then yes you are correct, I must have a notion to what a lion is, I know all lions share a common form which is what makes them a lion.

Likewise if I say there are no gods it is because I have a notion of what a "god" is based on my interpretations of other peoples beliefs. I wouldn't be so arrogant to say that I completely understand every single persons indivdual beliefs but the belief in god certainly seems to follow common threads in most religions.

So I now say to you there are animals called Finarps. Finarps are pink flying unicorns with toasters for shoulders and table tennis bats for hoofs. They live on Pluto.

We both now have a notion of what a Finarp is, are you now going to tell me that just because you can't see them you accept my claim? Are you happy to say that yes there are Finarps on Pluto?

Lets take it a step further, lets say that the Finarps are dying out because they are running out of Cheese Trees on their planet and cheese is the only thing they eat. So we have decided as a country that we should increase taxes to pay for a mission to Pluto to replant some cheese trees for the Finarps to continue living. This is good for all of us though since if the Finarps die out our sun will implode.

Are you happy to accept this because you can't see them? Are you happy to pay the extra taxes to save them?

15 October 2009 at 13:58  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Glovner,

‘We are so insiginificant in such a wonderfuld massive universe that the fact that something created this whole thing would take an interest in our lives is an idea that just doesn't sit with me.’

1: O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

2: Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

3: When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

4: What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5: For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6: Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

7: All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

8: The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

9: O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

Psalm 8

15 October 2009 at 14:13  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

And this proves what exactly?

You never answered my other questions either? Are they not worthy of your time?

15 October 2009 at 14:16  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Glovner,

Make your peace with God.

For neither of us have much time left upon this earth.

15 October 2009 at 14:23  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

I live every moment like it is my last anyway. I have no piece to make with god, invisible Patrick or the Finarps.

15 October 2009 at 15:28  
Blogger D. Singh said...

'I live every moment like it is my last anyway.'


Do you hold to existential atheism?

15 October 2009 at 15:31  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Or like Jean-Paul Sartre would you assert 'What is there to fear from such a regualr world?'

15 October 2009 at 15:32  
Blogger D. Singh said...

The existentialist…finds it extremely embarrassing that God does not exist, for there disappears with Him all possibility of finding values in an intelligible heaven. There can no longer be any good a priori, since there is no infinite and perfect consciousness to think it. It is nowhere written that “the good” exists, that one must be honest or must not lie, since we are now upon the plane where there are only men. Dostoevsky once wrote "if God did not exist, everything would be permitted"; and that, for existentialism, is the starting point. Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist, and man is in consequence forlorn, for he cannot find anything to depend upon either within or outside himself. He discovers forthwith, that he is without excuse. For if indeed existence precedes essence, one will never be able to explain one’s action by reference to a given and specific human nature; in other words, there is no determinism — man is free, man is freedom. Nor, on the other hand, if God does not exist, are we provided with any values or commands that could legitimise our behaviour. Thus we have neither behind us, nor before us in a luminous realm of values, any means of justification or excuse. — We are left alone, without excuse. That is what I mean when I say that man is condemned to be free. Condemned, because he did not create himself, yet is nevertheless at liberty, and from the moment that he is thrown into this world he is responsible for everything he does.

Jean-Paul Sartre (1905 – 1980)

15 October 2009 at 15:38  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

On est ce qu'on fait
This is the essence of existentialism.One is what one does.There are no mitigating circumstances for actions or room for error or excuses in existentialism.Man is responsible for everthing he does.It's easier being a Christian!

15 October 2009 at 15:54  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

I would agree with that, Man is responsible for everthing he does, and it would therefore be easier being a Christian, which is why I think people choose to do it, a religious comfort blanket if you will.

Anyway, that's another day worked.

15 October 2009 at 17:14  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Off home.

15 October 2009 at 17:15  
Anonymous the recusant said...

Mr Ron Todd,

To answer your points:

The pseudonym Recusant has significance, you can look it up.

For 2000 years the Catholic Church has developed and continues to develop the authentic Christian theology, revelation ended with the Apostles, but we continue to grow in our understanding of what Christ left with us and what the Holy Ghost continues to guide.

Ok suffice to say then that there is a world of difference between worship and veneratation. In the Catholic Church only God is worthy of worship and only God is worshiped, not the Blessed Virgin honoured above all others, not Angels or Saints nor their mortal remains. Veneration, are you a Christian, if you went to your brother’s house and saw a copy of the bible being used to prop up the leg of a table would you be upset, just a little. Well its only a book after all just like any other, paper and ink so why the disquiet, I suggest because of what it represents, it is something special to you, it is a book above other books, it has special importance to you, in fact you are venerating the book (you idolater you), you are lifting it up, holding it in special honour, that’s Veneration, hope you see the difference.

Money in the collecting plate! Well even Jesus did that (look it up), do you gainsay what He did?

Hey Cranmer your dead get back in the grave. Ok finally for those dead people you mention, who says they are dead, I certainly don’t think they are dead, If they are dead then as St. Paul says my faith is in vain and I am still in my sin, bugger that for a game of soldiers. I would not ask for the intercession of a dead person, what would be the point? The faithful have just gone home, back to their maker, they are still part of the Church, we Catholics say the Church triumphant and every one a saint.

Mr sydneysider,

How’s that red dust working out for you?

15 October 2009 at 20:47  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

Strange you should mention that red dust Recusant.I had a feeling you had a hand in this somewhere.
Another miracle attempt gone wrong?
At this rate your chances of canonisation are nil!

15 October 2009 at 21:58  
Anonymous Ron Todd said...

Gainsay what he did.

Well yes.

Outside the bible there is very little proof he even existed. One dubiously dated referance in Josephus. I will not take your faith as proof as so many people have so much faith in so many religions. They cannot all be true in their faith they could all be wrong.

Even if we accept he was a real person there are so many contradictions in the bible (Self contradictions of the Bible William Henry Burr 1860)that anybody can find a passage to support their view of what Jesus was like.

17 October 2009 at 06:58  
Anonymous len said...

Non-Christian texts that mention Jesus.



Mara bar-Serapion




The Talmud


17 October 2009 at 10:41  
Blogger Mark in Spokane said...

Well, I'm not an optomist, but if I were, I would be praying that all of these developments are moving us to the day when Mary's Dowry will be officially Restored to the Catholic faith of the West.

St. Thomas More, St. John Fisher, Our Lady of Walsingham, pray for us that the day may come soon!

18 October 2009 at 03:43  
Anonymous not a mouse said...

Well that's obviously part of the plan. One more reason why Britons should oppose it before you've all bled us completely dry.

18 October 2009 at 04:00  
Anonymous A contra mundum said...

All I can say is that the Pope owes everything to the Archbishop of Canterbury If it weren't for his actions Rome wouldn't be in the position of doing a takeover of Anglicanism.There would be no talk of making arrangements and amendments for those doing the swim across the Tiber.I wonder what he thinks about all of this.I still don't understand how he could have made those obviously bad and unchristian decisions.The upheaval in the Anglican world will be felt for years to come. Does he not have a conscience?How will history view him?

20 October 2009 at 13:34  
Blogger ZZMike said...

recusant: "Its "cobbler, stick to your last", not carpenter,."

Well, yes, but I was trying to uphold my motto of avoiding cliches like the plague.

sydneysider: "Sorry but who could take the concept of limbo seriously ever?"

As easily as we take the concept of eternal damnation and eternal paradise.

Is there anything a mere mortal can do that would merit eternal (which is rather a long time) damnation?

Or anything he could do to merit eternal paradise?

That second is mere easily answered: A kind and gracious God loves us, and in spite of our many faults, will have us with Him, if only we pay attention during this lifetime.

recusant (again): "we Catholics say the Church triumphant and every one a saint."

You've got the Church confused with the Mormons. They're the ones who propose "every one a saint".

22 October 2009 at 20:46  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

ZZMike.A kind and gracious God
wouldn't conceive of a place like Limbo and the Pope obviously thinks this as well!

23 October 2009 at 15:36  

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