Sunday, November 15, 2009

David Cameron does Songs of Praise

In a continuation of his 'doing God' period, today David Cameron appears on the BBC's Songs of Praise as the programme was filmed in his Oxfordshire constituency of Witney. He confesses again his belief in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the God and Father of Our Lod Jesus Christ, and he continues his Anglican self-deprecation.

He told Songs of Praise: "I believe in God and I'm a Christian and I worship - not as regularly as I should - but I go to church. Do I drop to my knees and ask for guidance whenever an issue comes up? No, I don't. But it's part of who I am."

There is something refreshingly honest about this appearance which is in stark contrast to that of Tony Blair, and even more to Gordon Brown's attempts to 'do God'. And this is not a trivial, partisan point: Mr Blair purposely did not 'do God' whilst in office, which gave the impression of dissembling: everyone knew that he did 'do God' in private and unashamedly converted to God quite spectacularly on leaving Downing Street. Fair or not, there is more than a whiff of hypocrisy about him. And Gordon Brown undoubtedly has a sincere Christian faith, and yet he is far more comfortable talking about his father's commitment than his own, so much so that when he does it feels insincere. When he talks of his spirituality it is with all the emotion of a Terminator: his compassion is expressed in the dialogue of fiscal rectitude and salvation lies in tax credits.

David Cameron has perhaps learned from both. We live in a 'spiritual' age: it is not fond of orthodoxy, but it demands appreciation of that which lies beyond the carnal and material. In order for Conservatism to regain its compassion, he understands that 'heart' and 'society' need to be re-injected into the brand.

And yet Mr Cameron is keen to give the impression that God will not enter Downing Street as he indicates that he does not get on his knees to pray for help 'when an issue comes up'. We all know he is talking of the 'big' issues, like war and peace. But what is wrong with praying to God before making such monumental decisions? Is there some shame in this? Or is the fear that of accusations of 'Christian jihad' and the perception of an oxymoronic Anglican Crusade? The bizarre thing is that moments of crisis are precisely when most people do fall on their knees: God is the final refuge; when there is no crisis, God is superfluous.

In an apparent reference to the death earlier this year of his son Ivan, Mr Cameron said that tough times in his life had strengthened his faith: "For me, and I suspect for lots of other people too, bad things actually sometimes make you think more about faith and the fact that you're not facing these things on your own," he said.

Mr Cameron said he prayed when he went to church, and described it as 'a quiet time when you can reflect a bit about your life and your family and your responsibilities and ask some questions'.

Asked whether he would follow his Christian beliefs or his political instincts when making a tough decision, he said: "I think all the time in politics, you're always thinking about what's the right thing to do. Politicians are always a bit of a mixture of ego and altro and you just hope that the altro wins out and that people do the right thing rather than the politically convenient thing.

"And by and large I think in politics, if you do the right things and stick to your principles then that comes through."

He sums up his Christian faith: "That's what it is to me. Church and prayer have always been about that. It's a moment to stop, to stand back and to sort of think about how you're getting on."

The Church of England has become a way of being religious without sounding religious, and Mr Cameron is perfectly Anglican. His moral compass has not sprung out of thin air: it is consistent with the moral tone of three centuries of Tory-Anglican fusion.

The media rarely report on the Church of England except when the institution is beset by embarrassment (which is frequent) or chaos (which is legion). The considerable amount of sacrificial good work and unpaid volunteerism which goes on is almost entirely disregarded. And the Church does not blow its own trumpet, not just for fear of sounding pharisaical, but because it knows it is in many ways quite weak. It cannot remain the Established Church by being the church triumphant: it has instead to be the church tolerant and inclusive, which makes friends with anyone of good will, including not only the local Roman Catholics but the local Muslims, and which encourages women to take over those roles which were previously reserved for men. Rather like the Conservative Party under David Cameron: an organisation which many thought to be dying — it is only four years since Geoffrey Wheatcroft published its highly enjoyable obituary under the title ‘The Strange Death of Tory England’ — but which is instead regenerating itself.

Perhaps, under David Cameron, the rift between the Conservative Party and the Church of England - which sadly reached its nadir under Margaret Thatcher - will be healed. Both Party and Church would benefit from a zenith of partnership and cooperation like that seen during the nineteenth century, when both shared a commitment to the maintenance of Establishment in the face of fierce opposition from the dissenting churches and the Liberal Party. The labels have changed slightly, but they are the same spiritual forces. One can only pray that David Cameron will manifest the wisdom and discernment necessary to defeat them.


Blogger Gnostic said...

To be honest, Your Grace, I'd be extremely worried if Cameron did go down on his knees and ask an imaginery entity what he should do next in the face of impending war or national crisis. I would hope that he sought expert advice and put the question to the Commons. Of course I wouldn't expect him to do it in the thoroughly dishonest and manipulative way Bleugh did it.

15 November 2009 at 10:35  
Anonymous Stuart said...

Seems to be a day of politicians 'doing God'.

John Denham has managed to upset the secularists (even though he is himself an avowed secular humanist)

Too little, too late frankly.

15 November 2009 at 11:10  
Blogger Alfred of Wessex said...

Quotation from Keith Green, disciple of Jesus of Nazareth and singer/songwriter:

"Going to Church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger."

Part of one of his songs:

"Tell me who's left out of the Holy City, O God our Lord? The liar and the thief and the ones half ready, O God our Lord."

15 November 2009 at 11:44  
Anonymous len said...

The church tolerant and inclusive is not the church of Jesus Christ.
Christians are supposed to be salt and light in a fallen world and to speak the truth in love(however unpopular)
Jesus Christ had nothing good to say about the half- hearted Laodicean church.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ and the cross is a stumbling block to many.
The ’stumbling block of the cross’ remains. Sinners hate it because it tells them that they cannot save themselves. Preachers are tempted to avoid it because of its offensiveness to the proud. It is easier to preach man’s merits than Christ’s, because men greatly prefer it that way.

15 November 2009 at 12:10  
Blogger Christopher Evans said...

There is so much to be said but where to start?

15 November 2009 at 12:48  
Anonymous Martin Sewell said...

Alfred, Surely the repentent thief was the first to follow Christ to paradise?

15 November 2009 at 14:19  
Blogger Christopher Evans said...

It's a difficult one this Cranmer. I have made a dozen or more speeches in my head only to abandon each one out of a sense of hopelessness. The truth is that faith is too complex a subject to try and narrow down into packets of acceptability just to please everyone else.

Dave has in fact struck the best balance here when making any attempt to explain something so deeply personal as faith. Anyone who denies their spiritual side is foolish, incomplete and vulnerable, but that is not to say that there is some kind of law that says that once you admit any religious tendencies, you now have to sign a contract with one of the mainstream brands. Dave has in fact demonstrated that not only is he a complete being but he is a balanced and rational one also.

I still wont be voting for him, so don't get too excited, but respect for this level of honesty is due none the less.

Denying the level of importance the Christian faith has had on our development, whether you are a believer or not, is foolishness because we are not really sure of where we are going in the world and to throw away the clues that have brought us this far, the map that could take us back in any search for understanding would only be silly. The correlation is complex and deep-rooted in the collective psychology of Western culture. Who on Earth supposes that they have no connection? Hopefully not any prospective Priminister....God forbid.

15 November 2009 at 15:45  
Anonymous IanCad said...

M.S. @14:19
It is my understanding that the penitent thief is still in the grave.

15 November 2009 at 16:33  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Alfred of Wessex, Len and Martin Sewell:
I think the problem with our churches is that we as frail human beings sometimes think like the world and overemphasise "worldly" sins like sex, drugs and gambling and underemphasise other sins like pride, greed and selfishness. I love the Comon Book of Prayer services for the reason that thy cover all.
Having said that, we all have that human tendency to want to fit in and not offend anyone or rock the boat and to not welcome some notorious or despised "sinners" who do not profess Christ, while not quietly or otherwise dealing with professing Christians who have an obviously unChristian lifestyle, or always gently, firmly and/or supportively dealing with Christians are tempted or who have fallen, as we all can and do in different ways.
We also don't always welcome the poor or treat them as beloved as the successful or better-off.
Dometimes we behave like the world
in relation to sin and forgiveness.

It must be tough being prominent and professing to follow Christ with evil just waiting to see prominant Christian fall.
I hope that Mr Cameron and others who prorfess Christ will seek God and His truth in regard to faith, and ignore any pressures to conform to the latest public opinion poll of what a Christian politician should be like. Each one of use is unique - there are no indentikit Christians or Christian politicians.
And since Christ has cocncern for all in society, whether great or small, but a special concern for those who are poor or vulnerable,
I personally hope that he and all politicians will find out how the issues facing the poor and ask them about their thoughts and their ideas rather than just relying on academic and policy materials which often miss the obvious. I also personally hope that he and others listen to small business more and to the vulnerable and to those who live in the countryside.

15 November 2009 at 17:35  
Blogger Christopher Evans said...

Luke 23:43 (New International Version)

43.Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

This is a strange statement because Jesus was in the tomb for three days, but it is open for interpretation. His body was in the tomb but who knows what this means. Do we need to force the issue though? What the hell is there to gain by making someone accept an interpretation? Nobody knows for sure - if they say they do then run away from them because they are nuts.

If the only way to heaven is through faith in Jesus, then it might have been a better idea to have been more convincing. Considering that less than two thirds of the planet's population don't really give a dam, even after hearing the story, I don't see what the point is of worrying too much about what happens when your dead. Worry about what is happening while you are alive. Make life more livable - less of a shitty experience - let death do it's thing, whatever this may be.

15 November 2009 at 17:41  
Blogger I am Stan said...

Hi your Grace,It always find it very difficult to believe politicions even have a soul,their whole lives are focused on being popular and getting votes to achive power..that is i believe the nature of their trade.

When they start talking GOD i switch off ....permanantly!,best for them i think to keep their spiritualty to themselves and just do a job.

15 November 2009 at 18:58  
Blogger Dr.D said...

Did Mr. Cameron mention that he is a sinner in need of salvation through the blood of Christ, just like all the rest of us? Did he perhaps mention that this is what the entire UK needs?

It seems to me that it would be real progress when a politician could come out and say such things as that. The lines I read could just about as well be said regarding a quiet walk in the country or other meditative time.

15 November 2009 at 19:30  
Anonymous Keving said...

When I read that our Dave has said "Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour" then I will believe he is a Christian. Until then, I wonder if he is just playing the God card

15 November 2009 at 19:48  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Christoper Evans @ 23:43

You said most people don't give a darn about what that scripture verse says. Were you really implying it is not important whether our Lord died, and as a punishment in place of our sins, and was resurrected? Is it not key to the Christian faith?

My take is that the thief sincerely acknowledged our Lord as Lord, ultimate judge and forgiver, acknowledged that he deserved punishment, repented and that Jesus then told him that was enough to get him to heavenafter he too was crucified and died next to Jesus. I think there are other details about the incident in another gospel.

I agree with you that we need to concentrate on this life. But I disagree with your criticisms of those who worry about the afterlife - are they feeling the Lord's gentle tug or direct tug of conscience about wrongdoings? are some being hounded by evil about their wrongdoings? are some suffering levels of pain which lead them to long for heaven or worry if the afterlife is as bad? Are some noting the complexities or injustices or strangeness of life, or wonder and beauty of people and God's creation? Or are they wondering for some other reason?

I think Jesus alluded that He would die and be raised from the dead (see His reference to Jonah in the New testament).

Yes, for some people much of their life is shitty, but Jesus experienced suffering, being poor, having to flee persecution/an attempt to murder Him, being badly treated at times even by friends and family as by some corrupt church leaders - by some Pharisees and some Scribes, being mocked, being tortured, being unjustly framed for insurrection while a real rebel Barabbus was set free, being tempted when hungry and thirsty, being tempted with bribery by Satan, being tempted with showing off and abusing His own power by Satan in the wilderness, being deserted in his time of trouble by His loved ones. His mother Mary was falsely accused of being an adulteress when pregnant with Him, so he would probably have been stigmatised by some as some born outside of wedlock wrongly and cruelly are.

He cares about our suffering too. He wants us to receive His forgiveness so that when this life is over, everyone who receives that forgivess - rich or poor, with or without a relatively shitty life - can spend eternity with Him in a place which is everything and more than this world could have been if there was no illness or death or if we were perfect and didn't mess up or do wrong to ourselves or others or to our world. Those in heaven will not suffer any more though aliv again, and will worship God and love other people perfectly.

I do agree with you that this life is important, and that this life can be painful and hard for many and that it is important to make live more liveable. But for some Christians, the hope of heaven can bring endurance when life is intolerably painful, and it sometimes it reminds some Christians that we need to live this life in light of the fact that although we will be forgiven by God, we will have to give an account to Him of how we lived this life - including what you wrote about making it more liveable for ourselves and others.

15 November 2009 at 19:50  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good on the Leader of the Opposition to talk about his faith in Jesus and how it has helped him! I'm sure the expedient thing to do would have been to steer clear of religion or anything anyone might take offence with. He has annoyed the secularists on twitter.

It seems that Cameron is talking about his faith with increasing bravery and clarity. He won't sack all the unbelieving bishops and replace them with Reformers the moment he enters Downing Street, but I'm sure Cameron will be much more sympathetic to the Christian Church than our recent Prime Ministers.

May the Lord bless David Cameron with much wisdom and much guidance. He will certainly need it in the months and years ahead.

15 November 2009 at 20:00  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A politician is a person who does or does not believe that - but there is no "one size fits all" phraseology, and it varies by denomination and by personality. Just saying it is not enough for any of us either as you imply. We can all make up our own have our about others' faith if we choose to but the Lord knows.

Also, don't people vote for a politician to govern, not for a sermon?

15 November 2009 at 20:04  
Blogger Christopher Evans said...

"Also, don't people vote for a politician to govern, not for a sermon?"

Hitler governed.

15 November 2009 at 20:20  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

David says ; do i drop to the floor on my knees for guidance, no, but that is who I AM'. dave its not about who you are mate its about who God is. You have not confessed Christ before men and your works show me nothing of a living faith, more of a religious faith which seeks a few more votes, lets see how you handle a visit to the local mosque or hindu temple, will you honour the false gods and remove your shoes, wear a mark on your head, bow to their idols , it could win you their vote mate...what will you do?

15 November 2009 at 20:20  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tony Blair governed also!

15 November 2009 at 20:23  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tony Blair governed also!

I am not sure what your point is but Yes he did. And here we have Dave putting his cards on the table so to speak so we know where we are at with regards to this dimension of his inner make up.

This is refreshing in its own right, to know that there is no pathological defect waiting to suck up to another psychotic leader's war mongering crusade against an imaginary axis of evil. He is basically declaring that he will be doing a job based on a healthy respect for what it means to be human.

I could be wrong here but that's what it sounds like to me.

PS. I am Stan. Welcome to the UK - I hope your quest to make sense of the world yields some results. Sometimes we can't see the wood for the trees - you have my sympathy, I suffer from this also.

15 November 2009 at 20:36  
Anonymous I am Dewi Jones said...

The real mystery is not what happens to you when you die but what was happening to you before you where born, why is there no memory of this?

Nature applies forces onto cellular life forms and they adapt, they change their genetic structure - to the point where they can now understand the changes and manipulate the changes as it suits them. Don't get stuck in obsolete forms.

15 November 2009 at 21:04  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Christopher Evans @ 20:20
No Christian would think that Hitler was a real Christian because of his lust for power, actions and policies (even if they were tricked at first).
What I meant was that while a politician's religious beliefs (including atheism) affect their view on life and their policies, I expect a politician to be focused on caring for their consituents and their country, policy, administering, leading ie being a "good enough" and trustworthy enough politician including not being a totalitarian. Are they trustworthy skilled and knowledgeable? Can they handle the media and the spin and crises? Are they (ab)using their office as a means to an end in a way which causes harm to their constituents and country? How do they handle conflicts of interest?
If they are a Christian, great (for me). I fear obviously "fake" Christians because they have deceived themselves as well as others more than someone I perceive as the best choice for office but who is not a christian, where that dilemma exists. However, we live in difficult times and there Christians are being harassed including uby using laws which I perceive to be wrongly applied or bad law, so I would also want someone in office whom I trust not to actively harm Christians(or anyone else).

15 November 2009 at 21:09  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Christopher Evans @20:20
I also think it is important who the person standing for office associates with and how, how they delegate, whether or not they are easily deceived (though all of us can be) because they are goin to be surrounded by a ton of people with their own agendas and conflicting reports and their votes and decisions affect others and sometimes greatly for good or ill.
I hate the fact that some terrible things have been done by some politicians professing to be Christian - becuase just like the times when any of us who profess to be Christians mess up, iit misrepresents Jesus and dishonours Him to people who don't know Him.

15 November 2009 at 21:14  
Blogger Frugal Dougal said...

Blair's "conversion" is certainly hypocritical, but goes beyond hypocrisy to the sinister territory of a need for attention regardless of whether that attention is positive or negative, which is a pretty powerful indicator of a psychopathic personality disorder.

15 November 2009 at 21:28  
Anonymous Keving said...

Bliar seems to have been ashamed of the Gospel of Christ---by not professing Him as Lord---afraid of what people may say of him.

Our Dave seems to not show a dependancy upon God by not falling on his knees and seeking Him. Seek and you shall find...knock and the door will be opened.

Dave---come on----wisdom comes from God alone James 1v 5---or are you relying on man's wisdom which is folly rather than God's wisdom.

15 November 2009 at 22:25  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What , no gay bashing today ? Oh dear !

15 November 2009 at 23:03  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Given the anti-gay readership of this blog, I really think that they will be in shock to hear the cameron apparently supports civil partnerships, has no problem with gays bringing up children and has prominent gays as candidates for the next election .

And yes after that he is still a Christian !!

Which by some views (Marie 1797 and D Singh) equates the Tory leader and next Prime Minister as a peodophile supporter (as they both equate being gay as being a peodophile).

What have messers Singh and Marie 1797 have to say about that eh?

15 November 2009 at 23:11  
Anonymous Christian Socialist said...

Anon @ 23.11

Totally agree with your logic , Cameron is a conservative, is a Christian and can also support the gay community. It is a pity that some [extreme]readers of this blog cannot do the same.

15 November 2009 at 23:21  
Anonymous len said...

Politicians are all things to all people.
D C is sitting firmly on the fence, votes are at stake!

A friend of the world is no friend of God.

15 November 2009 at 23:28  
Anonymous Helen Divine said...

But Cameron has agreed to continue our membership with the great Beelzebub of the EU..........

15 November 2009 at 23:44  
Anonymous len said...

Christian Socialist.
If you are actually a Christian you do no one anyone any favours by not telling people the truth about their condition. Sinful acts or attitudes that fall short of God's perfection are only the symptoms of the presence of true sin. Sin is an internal power that affects everyone's humanness, our human nature. In effect, sin deceives us, enters us and dominates our existence. Sin enslaves us and takes us over as drugs enslave an addict. Sin is like a deadly virus that enters our human nature and takes control of us, using us for its own purpose. Sin reproduces itself within us and destroys our self. And the evil behaviors that result are the symptoms of our inner defectiveness.

Jesus Christ took sin so seriously that He went to the cross to enable man to break free from the bondage of sin.

15 November 2009 at 23:58  
Anonymous Christian Socialist said...


Just because I am not a Bible bashing, sandle waring evangelical does not mean that I do not have a faith, so yes I am really a Christian. I find it strange that anyone who disagrees with me has to resort to personal smears to prove their points. How sad (and un Christian).

16 November 2009 at 00:07  
Anonymous not a machine said...

christian socialist
Why do you find it strange that anyone who disagrees with you resorts to personal smears, I think that is the society you have created in overseeing the undermining of christian life as pre emeintly better than socialism .

dont you see people now are so logical they are emotionally insensative , if you want a well done go on marxism today .

As regards David Camerons songs of praise , quite refreshing to find someone who has had thought about God and decided to work with it rather go into the realms of doubt.

I appreciate that its a difficult thing to grasp , but i know that some aspects of my faith I cannot explain even though some modern explanations seem all too similar .

I can imagine there are many people who read the jesus story and just see the historical account , but there is somthing about when he encounters the fall in indivduals , that has undeniable power its just beyond anything the physcologists have so far tried to suggest .

16 November 2009 at 01:00  
Blogger Preacher said...

What D.C says is an indication of his personal beliefs, which are between him & God, he is under no obligation to explain himself further to the public.
With reference to specific areas of sin that some postings seem to have a certain fixation with, or is it just mischief making? let us be perfectly clear: ALL sin leads to judgement & condemnation for eternity. Jesus Christ came to pay for the sins of those that would accept His offer of salvation, God gives us an undeserved chance to escape what we justly deserve & to enter into a relationship with Him. No one can justify the unjustifiable nor can what God decrees is sin or abomination ever be made righteous in His sight, no amount of talk about 'rights' or any other self justification will suffice. Only repentance of sin & the acceptance of Gods mercy through Christ's sacrifice.
If all the governments or lawyers in all the world proclaimed anything different, it would not change a thing.
To draw public attention & make an issue out of ANY sin only serves to antagonize people who find it unacceptable & will only result in confrontation when it is flaunted in their faces. Be warned that God will not change His mind on sin due to public opinion or law of man. He makes the rules, you respond or ignore, the choice is yours. Choose wisely.

16 November 2009 at 01:55  
Blogger Topper said...

It is highly probable that David Cameron will become PM next year. When he does, he will be presented with a thick file of difficult (some impossibly difficult) issues, requiring immediate attention. He will also be faced with many temptations to lie or shave the truth, to deceive, to obfuscate, and to do much more, in order to solve them.

The real issue is whether his Christian faith will be strong enough to sustain him as a righteous man of God through all this. Let us pray that he will be obedient and teachable, which is necessary for him to be successful and extricate the nation from the mess it is in.

16 November 2009 at 02:42  
Blogger I am Stan said...

@Christopher Evans-Hitler governed.

“I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Hitlers faith seems to be airbrushed from history.

16 November 2009 at 10:35  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your Grace,

Cameron will continue marxist Labour and EU policy of singing the praises of islam while suppressing Christianity.

I thank you for previously drawing my attention to The emergence of the Conservative Muslim Caliphate:

On the Conservative Muslim Forum website there is an interesting paper called An Unquiet world: A response:

Item26 says:

’26. In developing a shared British agenda and identity, the Policy Group proposed a revision of the history syllabus in schools. Any revised compulsory history syllabus needs to give full recognition to the massive contribution that Islam has made to the development of Western civilisation. Historically the recognition of this contribution has been suppressed because in the past control of the educational system rested with the Christian churches which saw Islam as a competitor.’

Watching part two of the BBC’s A History of Christianity this week it seems that Labour/Conservative revised history lessons are already flourishing as professor MacCulloch went out of his way to tell us that we have islam to thank for the founding of our universities and the shape of some of our churches. He tells us the Crusades were thoroughly wicked but omits to mention moslem invasions of Christian Europe – the fall of Constantinople and the end of the Byzantine Empire, the siege of Vienna, Spain, Barbary pirates etc. all spring to my un-reeducated mind. Still, there’s two episodes to go. Perhaps the professor will redeem himself.

As for Dave, I think he’ll be doing allah for all he’s worth to reap the millions of new votes that Labour have so diligently sown these past twelve years.

16 November 2009 at 11:38  
Anonymous Francis Horner said...

I think there are many Christians who are happier with the idea (for themselves and others) of praying for wisdom and judgement when making a decision, than praying for a direct sign from God as to what to do.

You could say its a cop-out, or you could say that it is consistent with the doctrine of free will.

16 November 2009 at 17:47  
Blogger Tarquin said...

A politician shouldn't 'do god' - it is wrong for him to drop to his knees and use a religious justification for issues such as 'war and peace' - particularly as there is no longer a dominant religion in the UK, political decisions should be rational and representative of the people's interests, not personal beliefs

Blair had it right - you can be any religion you like, but you aren't there to be a representative of that religion, unless you stand on a platform and say you will govern by christian/jewish/islamic etc teachings

17 November 2009 at 00:00  
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18 November 2009 at 05:24  

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