Wednesday, November 04, 2009

David Cameron’s ‘cast-iron guarantee’

In 2007, David Cameron made a populist pledge to The Sun newspaper, and signed a letter assuring the British people of a referendum ‘on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations’. His pledge was a ‘cast-iron guarantee’ that ‘no treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum’. And, in May this year, he said: "A progressive reform agenda demands that we redistribute power from the EU to Britain and from judges to the people. We will therefore hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty."

Cranmer has considered both sides of the argument in relation to the new post-ratification context. While ‘Eurosceptics’ (and political opponents) assert that Mr Cameron has reneged on his ‘cast-iron guarantee’ to give the people a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (or the ‘Constitution for Europe’), there are others (by no means all ‘Europhiles’) who are persuaded that Mr Cameron has not ratted, U-turned or betrayed anyone about anything.

His Grace has considered the matter, and has this to say:

A cast-iron guarantee is a cast-iron guarantee. But although cast iron is resistant to oxidation, it is brittle and not suitable for purposes where a sharp edge or flexibility is required. It is strong under compression, but not under tension.

And Mr Cameron finds himself subject to a little tension.

The Foreign Secretary David Miliband has denounced Mr Cameron's position as ‘false and dangerous’ as he would not be able to deliver his promised concessions from Brussels. He spluttered: “So much for David Cameron's cast iron guarantee to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty." The Prime Minister Gordon Brown has also ridiculed Mr Cameron for apparently not understanding EU law.

But they are of little consequence.

Mr Cameron fights today for the trust of the people: whatever he announces needs to be both credible and unconditional. While there will be many surrounding him who will argue that a 13-point lead over Labour means that ‘Europe’ isn’t a battle worth having, the reality is that the perception of a U-turn is an indication of unreliability, inconsistency and dishonesty. Mr Cameron may, of course, be wholly reliable, consistent and honest, but in politics perception is all. And readers of The Sun will not be inclined to heed nuanced subtleties of what is and what is not ratified: Lisbon is Lisbon, or the ‘Constitution for Europe’, and they do not want it, ratified or not, whatever ‘ratified’ means.

The fact is that Mr Cameron cannot simply opt out of treaty obligations because to do so he would need the agreement of the 26 other member states. And this agreement is not remotely likely. Ergo, a referendum on a ratified treaty is manifestly not the same as a referendum on an unratified one. Mr Cameron’s ‘cast-iron guarantee’ was clearly made in the pre-ratification stage.

If the Tories had pledged allegiance to the House of Stuart, but then found themselves dealing with a context of a newly-installed House of Hanover which offended all that they held dear, the wise move would be to adapt one’s political theology with regard to succession, Divine Right and the Lord's anointed, not to risk political turmoil and accusations of treason with attempts to re-install the Stuarts. And so they did. Tories (now Conservatives) are a pragmatic lot: they have the ability to adapt to a new context: indeed, mutability is one of the defining features of Conservatism. Disraeli observed:

‘In a progressive country change is constant; and the question is not whether you should resist change which is inevitable, but whether that change should be carried out in deference to the manners, the customs, the laws, and the traditions of a people, or whether it should be carried out in deference to abstract principles, and arbitrary and general doctrines.’

Mr Cameron today needs to articulate a change in Conservative EU policy that is in deference to the manners, the customs, the laws, and the traditions of a people. If it is not to be a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty (about which Cranmer is irritated, but by no means offended or distrusting - Mr Cameron did, after all, honour his promise to withdraw from the EPP), it needs to be a manifesto pledge to the exercise of subsidiarity: a commitment to ‘repatriate’ some of what now constitutes the sacred Acquis.

In order to do this, Mr Cameron will also need the approval of the other 26 member nations of the EU. And he will also need some sort of weighty mandate as he negotiates whatever ‘opt-outs’ he has in mind, and they appear at this stage to relate to social and employment law (but why not fisheries? Why has Michael Howard’s pledge to withdraw from the CFP been abandoned?). Mr Cameron’s mandate for negotiation can only really be provided by the people in a referendum since general elections are not about a single issue. By explaining today what he meant by ‘We will not let matters rest there’ in a post-ratification context, he considerably raises the stakes in his negotiations with the Council of Ministers and his dealings with the new President of Europe.

Mr Cameron may ask for a new UK-EU relationship and demand subsidiarity until he is blue in the face. But if they refuse to grant him his requests, what, in the absence of a handbag, is his ultimate threat?

There is only one response, unwritten and unspoken, but irrefutable and undeniable. Therein lies the hope that keeps Cranmer joyful.


Blogger TreeSleeper said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4 November 2009 at 09:31  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let's hope he stands by the substance of his pledge, the EU refuses to play ball and the threat is carried out.

There's a lot of ifs, though, and I don't truly believe that Cameron will do more than pay lip service in negotiations, let alone carry out the ultimate threat.


4 November 2009 at 10:18  
Blogger TreeSleeper said...

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4 November 2009 at 10:29  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cameron is a treacherous creep.

4 November 2009 at 10:33  
Blogger Roger Dodger said...

That 'cast iron guarantee' was given after Brown had put Labour into election mode. Cameron also pointed out that the referendum was for before ratification. Context is key here. If Brown had called the election and lost and then Cameron did not give a referendum then all charges are fair.

I am by no means pro-EU but I can't blame Cameron for this.

4 November 2009 at 10:33  
Anonymous Kiwi said...

It seems as though the EU is some sort of Hotel California...
"Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the place I was before
"relax," said the night man,
We are programmed to receive.
You can checkout any time you like,
But you can never leave!"

4 November 2009 at 10:43  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

There will be no referendum of any sort unless the EU Oligarchs can be guaranteed the outcome they desire.

Brown is the treacherous traitor - there is absolutely no doubt about that.

What puzzles me is the fact that we somehow feel bound to honour these EU treaties. It is widely known that most other member states simply pick & choose which bits they will adhere to.

The fact that the Lisbon treaty is now EU Law is neither here or there to me or the vast majority of the British people. We have a referendum, and if the outcome is 'up yours' then we simply walk away from it, ignore it, defy it, treat it with utter contempt. Let the other 26 regions do whatever they wish.

Of course, this will not happen. There will be no referendum except the one we call a general election. Therefore I choose the BNP as the very last truly democratic protest I suspect I will ever have.

4 November 2009 at 10:50  
Blogger TreeSleeper said...

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4 November 2009 at 10:50  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Ratification is ratification. I agree that it's pointless to have a referendum on Lisbon now that Vaclav Klaus has been forced to roll over.

However, we do have another option. Give us a referendum on whether or not we stay in or out. If Cameron is really a Eurosceptic (which he patently isn't) then that's the way to go.

BETTER OFF OUT is what I say. Take back our nation and the EU be damned!

And unless Cameron gets his bloody act together and starts behaving like a true blue Conservative my vote still goes to UKIP.

4 November 2009 at 10:54  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

If Cameron and the Tory leadership are displaying pragmatism it is the pragmatism of the likes of Vichy France... Although I think last week the renegotiations we already taking place- after Hague called a Blair Presidency a "hostile act", France and Germany suddenly got cold feet over Blair- it is one thing for the Tories to be in agreement to sign the country away, another to let their hated political opponent run what comes out of this signing off of UK Plc.

Yes Tories are pragmatic, but if you look at this treaty even from a pragmatic viewpoint then all conclusions come to the basic point that it is wrong for Britain and wrong for Europe.

Let us also dismiss this nonsense that Britain would look stupid if she then went about trying to have a retrospective referendum on Lisbon. This underlines the ignorance of many people on a basic British constitutional principle- that no Parliament can bind its successor and Parliament is sovereign. Therefore Parliament can make or unmake any Treaty, law etc that she so chooses.

On the allegation that Britain will be isolated if we don't go along with everything the EU does, well there have been times in the past that Britain cut herself off from the affairs of Europe and Britain's position only got worse when she started to entangle herself in the affairs of Europe just before the First World War.

Also don't forget Britain imports more than she exports- it is a buyers market at present so I am sure that Germany is not going to upset one of he biggest customers just yet.

As his Grace notes in the final section of his post, there is some faint hope that the Tories will try to renegotiate or leave. I suspect that the other Europeans don't want to risk agreeing concessions (as they would probably want these as well).

So we might end up having what UKIP want - a vote on whether to leave the EU or not.

4 November 2009 at 10:59  
Blogger Tony Sharp said...

Your Grace asks what, in the absence of a handbag, is Mr Cameron's ultimate threat?

Having read the Finkelstein piece in The Times today, perhaps it will be to never wear EU flag cufflinks again?

Or perhaps it will be to scweam and scweam and scweam until he is sick? I'm sure the corridors of power in Brussels are frit at the prospect.

Then again, perhaps not.

4 November 2009 at 11:11  
Blogger Preacher said...

The EU have never obeyed any rules, even their own. I refer of course to the rule that if any country votes against ratification then the Lisbon treaty is dead,am I imagining then that Ireland voted NO? So the treaty is dead. But after a pause for breath it was suddenly ressurected & the Irish were conned into voting yes. Were the people of this nation promised a referendum on Europe by the treachorous Tony Blair? & were we denied by the slimy Gordon Brown this vote? The EU is run by liars & thieves avaricious evil men whose god is their belly & who desire power at any cost. Will we the people stand for this?.
Mr Cameron, a Proud nation turns to you to have the courage of our ancestors, there is no disgrace in breaking away from scurrilous liars, thieves & vagabonds, even if they wear the robes of statesmen, their actions reveal their heart & intents,to conquer & destroy, they may use the pen instead of the sword but they are Knaves none the less, in the hire of the arch knave. If you have the courage to pull us out of this satanic plot you will strike a blow for all free men whose treacherous leaders have sold them into slavery. Then you will be a truly great leader who men will revere & follow. Your name will rank with the greats of history like Churchill. The choice is yours sir, our nation watches, & cries OUT!.

4 November 2009 at 11:12  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

a quotation from Hannan’s blog on October 26th, 2007: ‘Cast-iron guarantee’ must not rust (written before the government ratified the Lisbon Treaty).

Yet it now seems that [David Cameron's] pledge might not apply if Labour has already ratified the constitution. Why not? If the treaty is as bad as David Cameron says it is (and it is), it doesn’t become any better for having received royal assent. If the case for a referendum is as powerful as he says it is (and it is), it is no less powerful when applied retrospectively.

“Ah, but you can’t turn the clock back,” murmur some half-clever people. There are few political dictums that make me so angry. Of course you can turn the bloody clock back. We turned the clock back on a decade of republicanism in 1660. We turned the clock back on four decades of state planning in 1979. The phrase isn’t even literally true, for Heaven’s sake, as we shall discover this Sunday.

One of the things that people most resent about the EU is that it is a one-way street. Powers pass from the nations to Brussels, but never the other way around…

My party calls Gordon Brown a liar because of his sophistry over Europe, and we are right to do so. Let us play no games of our own.”

4 November 2009 at 11:37  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I will never accept the rule of a foreign power whether it be europe/scotland/britain, I will only recognise an English Parliament. An independent England is to withdraw from the E.U.

4 November 2009 at 11:52  
Anonymous Anabaptist said...

Brown, and now Cameron, have condemned us to another step on the road to the civil war/revolution that will inevitably engulf our grandchildren as they try to extricate themselves from the jackboot of tyranny. Prediction: within five years 'foreign' police will be operating on formerly-British soil demanding to see people's papers.

4 November 2009 at 12:16  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The fact is that Mr Cameron cannot simply opt out of treaty obligations because to do so he would need the agreement of the 26 other member states.

Stuff the other 26
This aint Hotel California
Make a Unilateral Declaration of Independence

4 November 2009 at 12:43  
Blogger ultramontane grumpy old catholic said...

Your Grace

This government has sold us down the river, reneged on its promises, sold our gold for paper, trashed the economy, destroyed pensions, etc etc and they've still got at least 6 months to go.

By still promising a referendum Cameron could still scare the living daylights out of the EU, the BBC, the labour apparatchiks who now are looking to Europe for their post election gravy train...But he's bottled out.

I am tempted to vote UKIP but

a) I think that my local MP,Oliver Letwin is a good egg.

b) I dont believe that it's a done deal for the Tories to take power at the next election. Watch the lefties in the media go into action over the coming months to support their darlings. The election result may be a closer call than everyone thinks

Voting UKIP could split the vote and allow the current b*st*rds to get back again.

4 November 2009 at 12:45  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace,

The Internet is essentially a conservative space. The Internet is turning against Cameron – the damage this affair has done to the Conservatives is incalculable.

There is likely to be a hung parliament. God is not going to abandon this sceptred isle that He has placed in the silver sea.

From the context of that hung parliament will emerge a man who will rule this nation with a rod of iron.

Please advise Cameron not to expect to occupy the office of prime minister for five years; for upon the front-door of 10 Downing Street another man’s name is written.

4 November 2009 at 12:49  
Blogger Preacher said...

D. Singh.
Wise perception. After the poll in the telegraph recently when 20% of the voters said they would 'seriously consider' voting BNP it seems quite possible that unless Mr Cameron does something positive, the balance of power could be in Nick Griffin's hands.

4 November 2009 at 13:09  
Blogger ukipwebmaster said...

EU-turn if you want to:

4 November 2009 at 13:18  
Blogger mongoose said...

In the UK, YG, Parliament is sovereign and may do as it pleases. It may do away with the past - repeal, slash and burn as it sees fit. The only thing that this sovereign Parliament may not do is to bind the hands of future Parliaments because then they wouldn't be sovereign, would they?

So all Cameron needs to do is to pass an Act saying that the Lisbon Treaty is hereby dead - or these specific parts of it, if he so chooses. That would probably be the wiser political course to take. He does not need the acceptance of the other 26; Parliament is King here. He would have to be brave, of course.

4 November 2009 at 13:57  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace,
By the MEP Gerard Batten:
The facts:
• By 2008 Britain will have made total contributions to the European Community (EC) Budget of £230.4 billion gross or almost £68.2 billion net.
• By the end of the current EC budget period Britain will have made estimated total contributions to the EC Budget of £315.4 billion gross and £101.4 billion net.
• By 2007 Britain had an accumulated trade deficit with the other EU member states of £383.7 billion.
• The Common Agricultural Policy costs Britain at least £16.8 billion per annum.
• The Common Fisheries Policy costs Britain at least £3.275 billion per annum.
• Over-regulation on business costs Britain at least £28 billion per annum.
• In 2008 membership of the European Union costs Britain almost £65.675 billion per annum gross or almost £55.775 billion per annum net.

• Due to the EU being riddled with corruption it is likely that the equivalent of Britain's entire net contribution to the EU is going into the pockets of fraudsters.

• A BOOST TO THE ECONOMY. As EU red tape is holding back the UK economy by £28 billion, 2% of UK GDP, it is clear that freeing Britain from EU control will get Britain out of recession and get British people back to work.
• COST FREE TAX CUTS. As politicians of the three main parties are struggling to explain how they will deliver the tax cuts that the British economy needs they have failed to realise that this money can be found if we stop paying the EU billions of pounds per year of taxpayers’ money.

The 2% boost to economic growth created by leaving the EU and slashing its excessive red tape would also increase tax revenue by £10.73 billion. Combine that with the direct savings to the exchequer and it will allow for a 6p in the pound cut in the basic rate of income tax.

4 November 2009 at 14:01  
Blogger Jomo said...

If elected Cameron will no doubt suggest that he takes the country into the Euro.

He is after all the heir of Blair and what's a promise if its time to move on.

The political elite since Heath has gone along with every move to "ever closure union."

The expenses scandal has shown where their heart is... and there's plenty of money in Brussels.

Cameron is a salesman after all. The product needs updating, plastic is so much more reliable and lighter compared to cast iron.

What he seems to forget is that, if and when he is elected, he will have no more real power than the leader of a county council. But the travel and exes are very good!

4 November 2009 at 14:02  
Blogger Ingenieur said...

All Contributors:
Now expect rapid action by the EU, consolidating and extending its own powers and diminishing those of national governments, to ensure no way remains of escape.

This will certainly have been achieved by the middle of next year. A vote then for Tories, BNP, Ukip or the Cheese and Wine Party will not matter.

The only slender remaining hope is a general election bringing in a new gov't before the year-end (when the nuEU should officially come into being).

There are sufficient grounds already to warrant an immediate dissolution of this treasonous gov't and this corrupt and discredited Parliament.

4 November 2009 at 14:50  
Anonymous Voyager said...

Personally I feel William Hague is at the root of all this. I am very sceptical that he is in private as opposed to the EU as once he made out. It matters little. Reading Die Welt comments online shows how angry some Germans are at having their nation given away by a political conspiracy.

There is simply no point in believing in Cameron or the Conservatives. He made a 'cast-iron' pledge when he thought Brown was going to call a snap election - it was tactical - just as the Blair pledge in 2005 was tactical.

Therein lies the problem. Just as with Labour pledging no to tuition fees but introducing them, we are as voters lied to and abused by organised criminal gangs whose next stunt will be to fund themselves collectively from public funds rather than individually cheat on expenses and bing 'taxed' by their parties to provide funds - not just in Westminster but in local councils.

There is frankly no way this system can be reformed. It is a Kelsen Norm Problem. The loss of sovereignty requires a Discontinuity to restore power to the Citizen and that unfortunately can only emerge through violence.

Just as Henry VIII brought sovereignty back to England and stopped the flow of tribute to Rome by seizing abbeys; and Parliament seized power through Civil War; and 1688 did so by the implicit threat of another Civil War; thus must the Citizens seize back what has been pawned by a bankrupt political class bribed much as the Scottish Upper House was in 1707. Ireland did not get Home Rule through Parliament

4 November 2009 at 15:24  
Anonymous Knighthawk said...

Dissent over the EU is not just confined to Britain. The Italians are up in arms about the threat to their tradition of displaying crucifixes, the Germans are concerned about the Brussels power grab and so on.

The EU's strength lies in its laws, institutions and oligarchical leadership not popular acclaim. This should make it vulnerable to direct action. The USSR eventually collapsed and did so in spite of massive repressive military resources. Why not the EU?

If a determined champion of national sovereignty could mobilise all disenchanted people across the entire continent its corrupt political and economic framework might just be its undoing.

But where can we find such a man?

4 November 2009 at 16:00  
Blogger Robert said...

Viewed from America, the future of the UK appears hopelessly inevitable. Even if Cameron comes through on his guarantee--even if he "stands in the gap" and demands that the British people have a say with regard to Lisbon--his action will be like throwing a stone at an oncoming tidal wave.

Does this mean that he and other Conservatives should put up no resistance?

No. But realistically speaking, the damage was done a half-century ago when Churchill called for a "kind of United States of Europe."

Seen from above, the UK is piece of flotsam circling around the rim of a mighty vortex. The pull is much too strong, and the proximity is much too close to escape.

4 November 2009 at 16:17  
Anonymous Voyager said...

But realistically speaking, the damage was done a half-century ago when Churchill called for a "kind of United States of Europe."

Actually not. The damage was done in May 1940 when Churchill bankrupted the British Empire and the EU was created after Dien Bien Phu in 1954 and the Suez Debacle when the US left Britain to twist in the wind....that is when the French decided to build a European Empire with German money.

When the USA becomes part of the New American Co-Prosperity Sphere with Brazil and Canada with total free movement of peoples and common citizenship; the experience of Europeans will be well worth reading

4 November 2009 at 17:31  
Blogger southwood said...

Now we know where we stand with Cameron - on shaky shifting sand. Britain is under that wrath and curse of God for its sins. Europe, PC politicians and legislation, Islam, these are powerful enemies and unless God intervenes we are destroyed. But lovers of justice and freedom must fight on until all hope is gone.

4 November 2009 at 18:00  
Anonymous IanCad said...

But for the fact that castration is a difficult operation to reverse, Anabaptist's dire forecast may well come to pass.

4 November 2009 at 18:00  
Blogger Preacher said...

Waffle, waffle & more waffle I've just watched David Cameron's pitiful response to the Lisbon treaty ratification. Basically, now the horse is gone, we will get new locks for the stable door to make sure it doesn't happen again. Not much point Dave there's nothing in the stable to lose. You had the chance & blew it with more political claptrap, as if we haven't endured enough of that for ten years. No wonder Belgium is so famous for its waffles.
Sad, sad day for Britain. Weak, weak leaders.
Well The Lord did tell us this would happen. The die is cast, the Rubicon is crossed, let's roll up our sleeves, praise God & get on with the battle, don't forget that victory & medals only come after battles, never in peace time. "We war not against flesh & blood but against principalities & powers in high places" to God be the glory. Advance!.

4 November 2009 at 18:50  
Anonymous Knighthawk said...

Don't listen to any more of Cameron's promises because it is now crystal clear that we can't trust him. He's the political descendant of Petain. A Vichy surrender monkey.

He gave us a cast iron guarantee and won't honour it. A future referendum lock is too late because Lisbon is the final treaty, the Constitution is self amending. The EU can now make as many changes as it likes to drain power away from member states without their approval. His sovereignty/repatriation proposals are worthless fantasies and spineless appeasement.

We will not let matters rest there.

He will face a referendum on the EU and his brand of conservatism at the 2010 general election.

4 November 2009 at 19:08  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If each of us took one of them with us, it would at least reduce the number of traitors who live to enjoy the fruits of their betrayal.

4 November 2009 at 19:23  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And I Dave, sincerely pledge to continue the Conservative Party's campaign (supported by Daniel Hannan, et al) to get
the 75 million Muslim Turks into the EU and thereby turn it into Eurabia. I expect the support of dhimmi Christians everywhere.

4 November 2009 at 19:47  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

I am not convinced by Cameron's response. I am also not convinced by the likes of Iain Dale telling people to "bugger off" to UKIP if they are Tory and disagree with Cameron on this issue. How low can the party stoop with attitudes such as that ?

This issue is above party politics. It is about the survivial of the nation or agreeing to do what previous tyrants have failed to do by force throughout the centuries (PhilipII of Spain, Napoleon of France, Kaiser William's Imperial Germany,Hitler's Third Reich, Stalin's Russia) i.e. SURRENDER England to the whims and laws of a foreign power.

This is what modern politics has produced; leaders without a backbone who are quite prepared to put England up the creek without a paddle for their own self -serving, self indulgent aims.

Phew! I feel better now I got that off my best.

4 November 2009 at 20:10  
Blogger TreeSleeper said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4 November 2009 at 21:15  
Anonymous the recusant said...

Cameroon’s desire for power has blinded him to basic honesty and truth telling, if that is, he ever knew the difference. It is making him forgetful of the promises he made to the British public, both in the conservative manifesto and those he repeated after. What do we call someone who gives a promise and then doesn’t keep it, someone who says he will do something and then doesn’t, and what’s more knows he won’t keep his word? Cameron is no better that any of the New Labour rabble, in fact you would be hard pushed to slide a fag paper between Cameron’s Tories and the New Lab. Lot.

Does anyone know of a single important major policy difference between the Tories and NL, there aren’t any, not really. There are cosmetic differences, a bit more or less tax here a change to a few laws there, one or two quangos may go, but nothing that would change the direction of Britain, and if they tried the EU would stop them (Not that they would try, Europhiles most of them). Ask yourself are the Tories promising to enact a general reform bill to undo all the chaos the socialist NuLab rabble have inflicted on Britain? No! Why not? Because they agree with it, wholeheartedly support it. Could they change it? Yes if they had the desire and inclination? But they don’t. Result Same Old, Same Old, and we get to pick up the cheque.

Cameron and his Tory rabble will sell us out to the highest bidder; they are doing it now and will do it in the future, Vote Tory, Vote NuLab, but don’t expect things to get better, none of them have the imagination or the inclination.

Look Cameron lied in the past, what on earth makes anyone think he won’t do it in the future.
Cameron: I promise I’ll give you a referendum on the Lisbon treaty”
Cameron likely to get into power, sphincter starts to pucker, thinks Oh poo how do I get out of this one
Cameron: “Er, won’t give you that referendum on the Lisbon treaty now, not my fault it was the bigger boys fault, because [insert some old claptrap about it being too difficult etc] But I promise to give you one if anything changes in the future”

An old saying comes to mind, Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
His Grace is a Tory to his core and I can’t help but feel sorry for him when he has to make excuses for this double glazing salesman, but unfortunately I have to say on this he is wrong he should be unreservedly condemning Cameron for the backsliding, U-Turning sleazy politician he is. The only party left to us now is UKIP.

4 November 2009 at 21:19  
Blogger Owl said...

The only course left open for the conservatives is for Cameron to stand down. He could have rose to the occasion but he failed...miserably. After two decades of heart searching, I had finally decided to vote conservative but that is no option anymore. The only hope left is UKIP. Cameron is dead but maybe there is still some life left in the people who are less and less prepared to accept muppets.
DC is just a cast iron prat.

4 November 2009 at 23:58  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

That weasel Cameron is a sad excuse of a man with nothing to offer this country. I don’t for one minute think he will ever stand up to the Europeans on anything now or in the future. There will always be some barrier to stop him giving us referendums on anything the EU wants us to adopt to our detriment.

I can see in times of trouble we need to ally ourselves with others and so we need not fall out with the Europeans. What’s the worst case scenario that can happen if we repealed the E C Act 1972 and stuck two fingers up on our way out?

That MPs wouldn’t have time to dream up scams to fiddle expenses and we would have full control of our own destiny again, that we would have to negotiate trade agreements with whom we wanted and got our fishing rights back, our agricultural rights renegotiated so we can eat our own plumbs and drink our own milk and enjoy our own meat, that our own laws which have been overruled by the EU ones are reinstated and all the rest. And stuff the Human Rights Act where the sun don‘t shine too. I hope the Pope gives Teflon Tony & co a rollicking at the summit, fancy not being able to display the crucifix in Italian classrooms any longer. It’s all these rotten atheists ruining life.

I think at the moment Nick Griffin is the only politician who gives a damn (UKIP are too close to Europe and too small)
His enthusiasm and passion for wanting to do the best for Britain is admirable and I think I shall be voting BNP.

5 November 2009 at 02:04  
Blogger Ayrdale said...

Once in, Europe simply will not allow the UK or any nation to secede. Ever. It would bring the threat of armed intervention, and Britain these days is a whipped dog.

Any Poms with foresight should get out, remember the glory the UK once was, and uphold its ideals elsewhere.

5 November 2009 at 02:17  
Blogger alanindyfed said...

The Treaty of Lisbon is ratified so we must move point in holding a referendum on what is a fact. Politicians should not hold to fixed positions but move with the changes and take into account present realities and circumstances. Too many are stuck and live in the past, thinking of what could be/what might have been - not "what is".

5 November 2009 at 07:22  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Couple of Lord Haw Haws have found their way here, I see. Convincing us of the impossibility of everything; of our inferiority; etc. etc.

Well they, and Cameron, are all wet.

wv: gunostel: 'nuff said.

5 November 2009 at 07:56  
Anonymous Vladimir Gonzalez-De Gaul. said...

With due consideration.....
There are those of us within the population of this hallowed isle that actually rejoice in the ability to travel unhindered throughout the European states.
We celebrate the right to operate businesses and own property, to work and to be amongst others as one single people.
Cameron like all politicians desperately seeks power and position, and had hoped that xenophobic seperatism could be his bandwagon, but are not inclusion and participation better watchwords than isolation and withdrawal.

5 November 2009 at 08:46  
Anonymous GTGTWG said...

Big deal! So the treaty has been ratified. A bunch of self serving old men have put their signitures to paper! Paper is flimsy. It burns easily. It is all up to the people now. Will we continue to be passive, stand by and do nothing, like our weak and spineless politicians. God help Europe! In the words of Forest Gump, "that's all I have to say about that!"

5 November 2009 at 09:02  
Anonymous Homosexual disabled person with dark skin and an IQ of -126 said...

I think the EU is a good idea.

5 November 2009 at 09:09  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A ‘13-point lead’ over Liebour will mean nothing to the CONservatives if there is a huge swing away from the old-gang parties to parties that promise independence like UKIP -- the establishment’s safety-valve party for voters who don’t want to be part of the EUssr. It could mean that the CONservatives will just scrape through to government with even fewer votes than Liebour had at the last election. Or, it could mean a Lib-Lab government as Liebour’s deliberate immigration policy yields the millions of new votes that will see it in government in perpetuity – that is until sharia law is introduced and parliament is dispensed with.

5 November 2009 at 09:28  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

Nasty case of stockholm syndrome your grace,it is not parliament that is soverign,it is the indigenous people of the British isles,and the next "election" will be a referendum on europe wether the political malignants like it or not,the constitution is only a done deal if the people accept it,and clearly we do not,all of thier "laws" are based upon our acceptance,and without our consent ,they can write as many laws as they like,we simply refuse to obey them.All parties are the same because the illuminati have removed all choice,like stalins russia,vote for us or do not vote,but like them or not we have an opportunity in the shape of the BNP to force these asters/bilderburgers/pilgrims to recognise our soverignty or else,because they only have the power that we give them,withdraw it now and in the future,make thier system unworkable,and reclaim our dignity as soverign human beings.

5 November 2009 at 09:31  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We all know Hitler was a well dodgy geezer, so don't think I'm giving him any credit here, but he had a pretty nifty trick when it came to treaties. He tore them up stating 'it's just a scrap of paper'. I am happy to do the same with all treaties that take sovereignty away from England including any uk union treaties. England is a sovereign nation in its own right.

5 November 2009 at 15:04  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

It wont be long before we’ll even be required to show our passports to get into Wales as well as the hefty mortgage to get over the French owned bridge!

Some folk have obviously swallowed all the propaganda, don’t we already move around with ease and a passport, when there is no threat of terrorism? and we can live and work in any of the 27 countries it’s just that a lot of them have dismally poor economies and why should we fund the growth of their economies when we need the money ourselves for our own sustenance and development. ( bio fuels, green energy infrastructure, wind, wave, nuclear power, more waste recycling plants and green energy products to export , tree planting programs in developing countries, )

That money we spend on subs to the EU club can go towards the national debt and improving our railways and public transport so that it can be as good as Germanys and building a new airport in the Thames Estuary that would be a nice achievement for whoever got in to do.

Who was around with the funding bucket when Britain was at the same stage of development?

I can’t imagine it realistically possible to have a harmonious and bland uniform EUSSR where every country is treated equally, adheres to the same rules, laws, regulations and has the same lifestyles more or less. Can you realistically believe that the Turks will want to roll over and comply? I don’t think so. There is no such thing as a peaceful multiculturalism on such a large scale. What IS the real purpose of Eurabia? If it’s to be able to trade with the rest of the world well Britain has a long history of world trading. She traded well with her common wealth countries before the EU came along and stopped it, that is when we had something to trade with.

Whilst I agree its good for human beings to be included and part of a group but when one joins an organisation and signs the contract it’s usually a mutually beneficial agreement, well I don’t see many benefits for Britain at all unless you’re a black, one armed Muslim homosexual with 6 different offspring wanting to open a corner shop!!

It was ok when it was just the 6 countries in the Common Market but Britain has to pull out now and its nothing to do with being xenophobic or separatist, or a yearning for the glorious empire days. It’s just that Britain isn’t getting any proper return.

5 November 2009 at 17:48  
Blogger Dissenter said...

Preacher wrote on 4.11.09 at 11.12

>>>>>The EU is run by liars & thieves avaricious evil men whose god is their belly & who desire power at any cost. Will we the people stand for this?<<<<

Yes, we will. There are various reasons for this, apathy, sloth and cowardice among them, but consider this.

The main danger to our long term liberty and prosperity from the EU is overregulation and excessive state interference. But many of us are begging for more of this.

10 million or more people in this country (rough calculation, 2.5million on unemployment benefit, 3 million on long term sick benefit, 5 million plus pensioners) are not economically productive and live on various benefits, many more (like the 4 busybodies who came to my place of work to 'inspect' me last Friday) are employed to do the state's will (William Cobbett called them 'tax-eaters'). All of them have the vote.

All of these people are happy with the status quo. Those on benefits and state pensions don't mind if business is overregulated. Those on the state payroll are generally overjoyed at extra regulation-more for them to do, or rather to tell others what to do.

All these people will suport the status quo, (as Peter Hitchens has so ably observed, a vote for any of the 3 main parties is a vote for the status quo) as will the 40% of the electorate whose minds are so befuddled with junk TV and Hello! magazine they can't be bothered to think or vote.

Since I don't imagine that my modest electoral reform proposal of one taxpayer, one vote will be adopted, we will stay in the EU until some cataclysm forces us to wake up, but by then it may be too late.

We'll see, if they haven't passed a new set of regulations preventing us by then

6 November 2009 at 11:53  
Anonymous Adrian Peirson said...

Leave this to me, I'm going to write a strongly worded letter to the PM.
I might even start a petition on the No 10 Website I'm so angry.

I'm sure I originally posted this Vid well over a year ago on here, yet here you all are, acting surprised.

The New World Order for Dummies

15 November 2009 at 20:47  

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