Sunday, November 29, 2009

Switzerland, minarets, Islam and human rights

Cranmer has received quite a few emails about the decision of the Swiss people to prohibit the construction of any more minarets (there are just four in the entire country). He was not going to comment on the matter because, for the (former) life of him, he cannot work out what all the fuss is about.

The poster campaign showing minarets as missiles was undoubtedly provocative and offensive. Switzerland is a democracy which permits freedom of speech and freedom of expression, so get over it.

The Muslim community there makes up 400,000 out of a total population of 7.5 million people. They are justifiably dismayed by this decision, but Switzerland is a democracy which is governed by the ballot box, so get over it.

Muslims may feel alienated, ostracised and defamed by this decision, but 57 per cent of Swiss voters have expressed their view, so get over it.

The Swiss government and parliament had rejected the ban as unconstitutional, but their people have decided to the contrary. In a true democracy, it is the people who decide which powers to lend to their governments, and the people have spoken, so get over it.

Apparently, the ban is a ‘far-right’ initiative of the Swiss People’s Party. This is appalling. How dare any ‘right wing’ (let alone a ‘far right’) party articulate any view with which as many as 57 per cent of an entire population might agree.

And Cranmer is equally appalled that 22 out of 26 cantons voted to ban the minarets: what does this say about the backward, unenlightened, extremist, xenophobic Swiss and their outdated, medieval views, their contempt for human rights and the tyrannical propensity by which they oppress the minorities who dwell among them?

Switzerland is not a member of the EU and so not subject to its courts. Were it to be so, there is no doubt that the democratic will of the Swiss would be overturned with the stroke of a pen by the assertion of an 'equality' directive: after all, if the Christians can have their spires, why should the Muslims not have their minarets and the Jedi their death stars? But this is a local planning matter, and mosques and minarets are no more a prerequisite for the practising of Islam than church buildings and spires are for Christianity. There is no 'phobia' or 'religious hatred' in the decision: for the Swiss, this is not simply about the construction of minarets, but the realisation that each one may lead to an amplified call to prayer, and each amplified call to prayer the universal proclamation five time a day of the omnipotence of Allah and the uniqueness of Mohammed his prophet. And so the matter is both political and religious; material and spiritual; planning and prophetic.

Was Switzerland right to ban the construction of minarets?

Cranmer is not Swiss: it is not for him to say. But Calvin would undoubtedly have thought so. And the people of Switzerland have in any case spoken. They still possess and inhabit a democracy.

Is their intolerance un-Christian, unenlightened or undemocratic?

Possibly, maybe, yes and no. But who are we to judge the express will of a sovereign and independent people?

Will there be a 'Muslim backlash'?

Only by the intolerant, unenlightened and anti-democratic ones.

129 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have spent quite some time in Arabian countries, and have noticed that there are no Christian buildings. No Christian symbols or signs, no Bibles. Anywhere. Once in xxxxx we somehow contacted a "plain clothes" Christian, and therebye could attend mass, in a room in a suburban bungalow. No one in the West complains about this, certainly no one makes a fuss over it. That is accepted as the Moslem way.
Yet in the West, the towns all have mosques. Some have Moslem prayers filing the air. No one objects, for, as everyone knows that is the Moslem way.
Why is this?
Peter Melia

29 November 2009 at 18:14  
Anonymous Bleeding Heart Liberal said...

Unlike churches, mosques are not places of spirituality, peace and sanctuary. They are quasi-military citadels and centres of subversion, intimidation and aggression:

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey's prime minister and ex-mayor of Istanbul, said that 'the mosques are our barracks, the minarets our bayonets, the domes our helmets, and the believers our soldiers.'

Commenting on the Oxford Mosque's demands to broadcast the amplified pre-recorded wailing, Dhimmiwatch says

"The noisy call to prayer is an act of dominance and aggression. The louder it is, the better. Mosques were always supposed to be built in high ground, or in the most imposing spot, towering over churches and synagogues, in the lands first conquered by Islam. Those aggressive skyward thrusting minarets were symbols of power, of dominance.

Some fail to understand that the placement of mosques, the size of mosques, the significance of minarets, and those calls or cries, now electronically amplified, are all part of a single system. That system is one by which the mosque is not merely or mainly a place of worship, but a place of community gathering... of plots and schemes. It is even -- as we see even here and there in Europe -- a place to store weapons, explosives, false papers in false ceilings -- and a place from which to fire on Infidels ...

A mosque is NOT a Muslim "church." It is a Muslim "church" and a Muslim "community center" and a Muslim "armory" and a Muslim "army recruiting center" and a Muslim everything.

The easy, and comforting, belief in the West that it is merely a "house of worship" is something that Infidels must disabuse themselves of....The muezzins wail ...would be an intolerable display of triumphalism. If Oxford allows the call to prayer between 6 a.m. (but not earlier) and 10 p.m. (but not later), what will this do to the sleep patterns, and peace of mind, of all the non-Muslims who, presumably, still live in Oxford?

If it is allowed, the very fact that it will disturb Infidels will not disturb Muslims, but will be triumphantly taken -- as each little victory is taken -- as a sign that the barriers to the spread and dominance of Islam are being dismantled. Some are being dismantled by a display of sweetness-and-light, some by a display of something quite different -- but the goal remains the same.

Each new victory swells the hearts of Muslims, and causes, here and there, among the pool of Infidels who are psychically vulnerable to the appeals of the well-financed, non-stop campaigns of Da'wa (Every Man Is His Own Missionary in Islam), more to see it as the coming thing.

One may look at what happened in Granada. There, the Spanish government, thinking to do the grand thing, allowed a mosque to be built. It was built, on the highest ridge in the city. It now overlooks a nunnery. And the nuns have been complaining ever since that the noise from that mosque has permanently disrupted their own existence, their own necessary quiet, as the Call to Prayer (and indeed, other noises) suppress any possibility of contemplation."-

... the wailing over Oxford, which is perceived by Muslims as a historical centre of Anglosphere culture, is a deliberate 'in-yer-face' insult to the English. Moreover, the caterwaul that dhimmies refer to as a 'call to prayer' is actually far more offensive than that. It is an assertion screeched over an English city in Arabic stating that Islam is the only true religion, that a psychopathic murdering pedophile is a greater spiritual leader than Jesus, and that everyone should worship the Man in the Moon - aka Allah. -

http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2008/02/mosques-are-quasi-military-citadels.html

29 November 2009 at 18:14  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

I only hope his grace does not get a fatwa issued against him.....

29 November 2009 at 18:19  
Blogger ultramontane grumpy old catholic said...

No doubt the disgruntled swiss Muslims will wish to emigrate to Englistan where they will be given a warm welcome.

I read today that Pakistan was being urged to root out Bin Laden from their badlands.

It would not surprise me in the least to learn that he had shaved off his beard, adopted western dress and got a visa to come to the UK. He may already be in Luton or Burnley. Peerhaps Your Grace with your proficiency in photoshop could generate an image as to what he might look like.

29 November 2009 at 18:23  
Anonymous Stuart said...

Before anyone complains about this, which undoubtedly many will, they should note reciprocal Christian freedoms in Islamic nations, as Peter Melia rightly points out.

29 November 2009 at 18:36  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Was Switzerland right to ban the construction of minarets?

Yes of course. It’s about keeping Switzerland Swiss!

The noisy racket of the Muslim call to prayer clashes with the delightful peeling of the Swiss church bells echoing through the mountains as most villages and towns do still ring bells.


Is their intolerance un-Christian, unenlightened or undemocratic?

No. They are sensitive to their way of life being diverted into something they don’t want. They are funny like that.

29 November 2009 at 18:37  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

I am surprised that you are not thanking God that there is at least one country in Europe that can take measures to protect itself against the satanic cult of islam. If the muslims don't like it surely it's for them to 'get over it', or get the hell out of Europe. I believe that they are not needed and they are not wanted; except by the undemocratic powers who currently impose their will on the rest of us peons.

29 November 2009 at 18:38  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr John in Cheshire,

Is Grace is delighted that he may still surprise, and is delighted to dissent from the views you are free to express.

And he thanks God that he may both surprise and dissent.

29 November 2009 at 18:42  
Blogger Political-Oxygen said...

Because I hate Islam, yeah it's true, there is no point denying it, I think this is a marvellous thing. I know that hatred is not good. I think about it and wonder where the energy comes from. I think it came about by degrees of having to read about it all the time and see it on TV. I make no excuses about my very basic thought processes about how Islam is not only backward and dangerous, but I do honestly see it slowly taking over everything. And, well, after those acts of murderous terrorism that missiled it into the fore, I didn't see any major Muslim disdain towards the terror. In the previous thread someone talked about the ignorance they experience in certain ethnic shops, well I too have suffered this.

So yeah, basically I hate Islam and I have had enough of it and you can take it away when it suits you and stick it in a vat of acid. There is not one single micro fragment of atomic particle about me that will ever be remotely interested in it. Phew, there is a sweat about me after saying that without one single swear word.

Is this attitude Christian, and would this be what Jesus would want me to do? Dunno, probably not, if I ever get to see Him then I imagine I will soon find out. But it's not for me and I am tired of it to be honest, I don't want it here in my life, at all really. My life was much simpler and happier without it all. I have a long family history here in this country and I like it, I identify with it strongly and I want it to stay like that, and to be honest, if this somehow upsets other people, I really do not give a micro fragment of atomic particle of care about it. SO GET OVER IT!

29 November 2009 at 18:45  
Anonymous Knighthawk said...

The poster is a masterpiece of propaganda art.
By using image adaptation to expose their opponents true intentions with overwhelming impact, one might even say that they have pushed all the right buttons.

29 November 2009 at 18:53  
Anonymous Hank Petram said...

I was pleasantly surprised, earlier today, to read this news online at the BBC and to find the Beeb report straightforward and factual, without any of the expected islamophiliac embellishments.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8385069.stm

There was just this little paragraph:

Before the vote, Amnesty International warned that the ban would violate Switzerland's obligations to freedom of religious expression.

Has Amnesty issued a similar warning, I wonder, about Saudi Arabia’s obligations to freedom of religious expression?

29 November 2009 at 18:59  
Anonymous Spize said...

I see Islam being like a cancer eating away at the culture of what brought this country forward. I do not see it in terms of population statistics, it's not about the number of cancerous cells, but about the destructive nature of the disease. If you have one cancerous cell in your body then it's one too many because that's all it takes to kill the rest of the cells in a matter of months. Another set back is the AIDS virus, an immune deficiency virus. Combine the two and your body is dead in no time. Personally, I see the UK as suffering from both AIDS and cancer at the same time.

29 November 2009 at 19:02  
Blogger Preacher said...

A Democracy Your Grace? Ah yes I remember the word, but it was a long time ago. I think the word has been eradicated from the NuLab dictionary, was it something to do with the government being the elected representatives of the people & the population having a say in the running of the country? No,that cannot be the case, in the light of recent events it's quite ridiculous........isn't it?

29 November 2009 at 19:04  
Anonymous Dobryden said...

It's interesting that Andreas Gross, president of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, said: "This is clearly the result of a lack of information and political education in Switzerland."
For 'political education' read, political indoctrination'. Do these modern Marxists like Gross have any real idea of how evil they sound? I know I'm mixing my Marxist-Nazi metaphors, but Goebbels couldn't have put it better.

29 November 2009 at 19:59  
Anonymous non mouse said...

"Is their intolerance un-Christian, unenlightened or undemocratic?" Well, isn't 'intolerance' eu-loaded, nowadays?

Did Christ do what the Devil told, or tempted, Him to do? I don't think so.

Further, I think, He meant us to model ourselves on Him as far as we can, and that necessitates refusing to obey or succumb to Anti-Christ.

And do I therefore claim that Islam is as Anti-Christ as commiedom? Yes: the evidence says it is; its followers likewise proclaim that it is. That's why they're supporting each other in militating against Christendom.

Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Light. And His presentation of these things underlies our version of democracy: so we interpret that political ideal as endowing with rights the poor, the meek, the lowly, the hardworking and honest, the child-like and the children. Democracy is not about appeasing Caesar (Julius would cut off your hand - or worse - if you used it against him); or about empowering pharisees, sadducees, or other bullies and invaders of 'Jerusalem' (which presently has no chance of being builded Here).

So the Swiss, surrounded by bullies everywhere, outnumbered by 27 nations and the Arabs: have the guts to vote for their own way, truth, and light. In the spirit of Calvin - Wassail!!!

Thank you, Your Grace, for tolerating our free speech on this; especially in light of your express disagreement.

29 November 2009 at 20:09  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What would Calvin do about the Trinity-denying, Incarnate Christ-denying followers of the soi-disant Prophet of Araby?

Ask Michael Servetus!

(Your Grace will understand ...)

29 November 2009 at 20:17  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I should add, I used to live in a listed building and couldn't adapt it as I might have wished. The Swiss can impose any building code they like on themselves.

29 November 2009 at 20:19  
Anonymous no nonny said...

When young, I frequently flew over the Alps: always staring and wondering why poets etc. extolled the virtues of those dizzying heights and depths. They made me long for Britain, and I saw them in contrast as dark and cold, razor-sharp and cruel, black and white, barren, etc.

Then someone suggested to me that the Swiss had learned to overcome those disadvantages. That's why they're so stable - even if, in his words, "They are the most boring people on earth."

Boring no more - I think!!! Today the Swiss are brilliant, and a Beacon in the fallen world. God bless them and their courageous stand for Freedom.

29 November 2009 at 20:28  
Blogger Hugh Oxford said...

Is this attitude Christian, and would this be what Jesus would want me to do?

As a Christian myself, I ask this question, I agonise over it. I find myself torn between a fear of Islam and my obligation to love my brother, whatever his creed. I am torn between genuinely liking a number of Muslims, and a deep apprehension about the growth of Islam.

It is a difficult one, but I have come to an understanding that allows some reconciliation of these views.

The first is to realise that God is bigger and stronger than Islam. That Muslims can and do turn to Christ when given freedom, education and time. I know an Iranian convert who tells me that Iran has a large and growing underground Church - he tells me that the information age, against which the mullahs struggle, is creating converts, even in a country in which Christians are persecuted.

The Bible tells us, appositely enough, time and time again, what happens when the people of God turn away from God. God punishes them. One chief way He punishes them is by making them live under hostile, foreign rule.

I believe this is what is happening to us in Europe. We have turned away from the love of Christ, we have embraced death through the Devil - abortion, homosexuality, materialism, etc - and we are being punished by Islam.

But we need to turn back to God, back to Christ's open arms, embrace life, embrace the gifts we have been given, restore the Church, and if we do so we will return to God's grace and favour, and we will start to flourish once again.

Until we do, nothing will sort out our malaises - either the ones brought upon ourselves, or the ones brought from without. And those are not unrelated malaises.

I believe we are being punished for spurning God, and God punishes us because He loves us, and He wants us to turn back to Him. Surely this is the message for a sick, dying and beleaguered Europe.

29 November 2009 at 20:39  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm moving to Switzerland, what a coregeaous nation. Little old Switzerland, the neutral! has more backbone than the old lion of England.

29 November 2009 at 20:41  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Goodness, Dobryden! "This is clearly the result of a lack of information and political education in Switzerland."

I wonder how they'll proceed if they can't enforce re-education and another referendum with the 'left' answer?

29 November 2009 at 20:42  
Anonymous Knighthawk said...

This issue has become the outlet for discontent which has been festering for some time. Opposing minarets is not trivial, they are an affront to western civilization and a total eyesore (and ear-sore) but this issue really serves its purpose in a proxy war to hit out in frustration against a dangerous ideology and the nightmare of a worldwide caliphate.

Just two days after world powers united in condemnation of Iran’s nuclear activities in a rare show of international consensus on the threat posed by Tehran’s continued nuclear defiance, the Iranian's responded by announcing plans to build 10 new uranium enrichment plants and said work would start within two months. Each site will be the size of the existing Natanz plant with the aim of producing between 250-300 tonnes of uranium a year. Iran is pledged to the annihilation of Israel. No prizes for guessing how they intend to achieve it but the Swiss poster might just give you a clue.

The Swiss are to be applauded for resisting the Islamic bully. Typically, their government is already groveling for fear of upsetting the Muslim world. Can't risk losing money and oil over this can we; they are much more important than trifles like democracy and liberty. I can just hear the UN whinging on about trampled treaties and suchlike and lets not even think about the EU response.

Now which party can we vote for here who would give us a similar Swiss style referendum on the strength of a million petitioners?

29 November 2009 at 20:43  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually the poster was reflecting an Islamic view point. As a Swiss MP said
"Prime Minister Erdogan of Turkey says 'the minarets are our bayonets' that means something to me. I don't want his bayonets to be planted here in Switzerland.""

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8381274.stm

29 November 2009 at 21:08  
Blogger Preacher said...

I feel it should be noted that it's only minarets that are now no longer allowed, it seems that mosques are still o.k.
Perhaps if we promised to build churches without spires in Islamic countries they would stop persecuting Christians & allow us to evangelise.

29 November 2009 at 21:10  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you want to let off steam have a go at the online game at
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/10/whack-minaret.html

29 November 2009 at 21:36  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

There is hope... in Switserland...because the Swiss people are allowed to speak...and the idiots who govern must do the will of the people!

How, I wonder, are we to get the ignorant fools who rule (yet consider themselves arrogantly so wise) to submit to the will of the majority of the people of Europe who no doubt would vote the very same as the Swiss? That is what a true democracy does!

Must these ruling fools continue to rub us wrong for so long that we rise up in arms and say "Enough is enough!" Running out the muslims together with those ruling fools into the sea...or wherever they can do us no more harm?

29 November 2009 at 22:04  
Anonymous St Bruno said...

Anonymous said...
29 November 2009 18:14
Agree.
I too have walked the streets of our friend’s populated cities and felt the threatening stares of a thousand eyes as I walk past one of their places of worship when the call to prayer is reverberating in the air from a myriad of towers.
We in Britain are told to be nice to them by our Lords, Masters, elected or not elected tribe of bribe-takers and rogues, hey ho, fiddle-de-dee expenses, why? I don’t bloody well know, I wish I did. The Christain world ought to be nice to the Muslim world because the Muslim world deserve it they are peace loving calm democratic people of the book and therefore have the right to be our masters, and just might have lots of suicide bombs, lots of gold, money and truth on their side. Be nice to the Arabs in UAE, Dubai and you might get a couple of nights in the place of your dreams with some Ruskie babe.
Well done the people of Switzerland! Now have a referendum to let them stay or depart Switzerland.
It’s only a pity we are not given a chance to have a choice in our country any more!

29 November 2009 at 22:06  
Anonymous senn said...

In muslim countries, would a Christian minority get away with creating a stone bell tower with a cross on the top?

29 November 2009 at 22:10  
Anonymous Zach Johnstone said...

Your Grace,

I just hope this will not be used by the Left to castigate localism and parochially ignore the limitless virtues of introducing more direct democratic elements into a representative system.

29 November 2009 at 22:33  
Anonymous Pat said...

The very last sentence is the whole point.

29 November 2009 at 23:17  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Its rather funny that a country renowned for clock/watch making , fine alpine cheese made from cows with bells , yogelling and blowing a tune out of an alpine horn , let alone being a by word for political neutrality , that they should be forced into decision that offends a reletively new immigrant population .

If architecture has power to upset the swiss goodness knows what a vote on sharia law would have done .

Such a little country , to take a stand , and yet I understand how a population size 1/9th of ours would see the situation with so much clarity .

I dont think many people will have seen the gradual change of opinion in Europe , dear little Malta I noticed first , but now Holland , Sweden and Belgium .

The question is perhaps who had there fingers in there ears and believed you could legislate it and quash dissent , to the point we have reached now , where the outcome at the ballot box could change .

Not really one of the best "I told you what would happen " to have a celebratory drink to .

29 November 2009 at 23:24  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

29 November 2009 at 23:28  
Anonymous Anon 2 said...

Your Grace -

I've checked out all the links here posted, and am fascinated.
The euro megaphones blare out opinions from the opponents of the Swiss people - but let the Vote speak for itself!

How vain (empty) and self-righteous all the PC gubbins sounds. How mechanical. How wrong the 'Polls' were.

And yet, deep in their collective consciousnees, these idiots must have a sense that the masses they suppress are jubilant at this Christmas Gift? Even our brainwashed young may begin to see how dead and deadening their masters truly are!!

I hope we're making them nervous - though of course, we wouldn't want them to Panic!!!

29 November 2009 at 23:35  
Blogger Gnostic said...

So there is common sense in Europe after all. It's the EU countries that lack any sense of self preservation.

Now let's hope that the Swiss government listens to the wishes of its people and acts upon them.

Your Grace, has the planning application for the London super mosque been accepted or rejected or are the planning officers still dithering over the decision?

29 November 2009 at 23:43  
Anonymous Hank Petram said...

@ Senn, yesterday at 22:10

In muslim countries, would a Christian minority get away with creating a stone bell tower with a cross on the top?

Well, it would depend on the result of a referendum, wouldn't it?

30 November 2009 at 00:30  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

Can anyone tell me how easy it is to become a Swiss citizen before they close the gates of Her Majesty's Prison Great Britain once & for all (though new inmates will be added all the time of course)?

30 November 2009 at 00:40  
Blogger srizals said...

Sad but true. His grace writing of course. The other commentors? Purely imbecilic but accepted understandably. It's the colour that make the world what it is. What is the truth without lies? What is hate without love? It would be very hard for us to define them won't it?

30 November 2009 at 00:44  
Blogger srizals said...

I forgot to put 'Most are' before the word purely imbecilic. Pardon me. Some are very interesting.

30 November 2009 at 00:54  
Blogger Kenpachi said...

Oh the rampant Islamophobia! The poor, frightened, genocidal, thuggish, supremacist little dears! What will they do without their minarets?

Expect violent consequences from The Religion of Peace.

30 November 2009 at 01:24  
Anonymous Sarah said...

Oh dear, were it not so deplorable in these days of mass so called education, you would all make me laugh reading the knee jerk reactions incited by the centuries old pagan psyops against Islam, which fyi, means the peace which can only truly be attained through choosing to submit one's will to the unassailable commandments of God, yes, the ONE and only God of us all. Push the preset buttons and all the festering prejudices and wanton ignorance spouts from the arrogant, spineless hypocrites who purport to represent the teachings of our Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him. The perversely righteous indignation of the peace loving Christian West to whom it matters not the deprivations of sanctions, of sustained bombing campaigns, of the now homeless, the orphans, the dead on both 'sides', injured and diseased, of the humiliating torture prisons and rapes by gung ho Rambo soldiers et al ad infinitum ad nauseaum. You have both betrayed and corrupted the teachings of Jesus pbuh who was sent to Bani Israel to chastise the scribes and pharisees and comfort the sincere with the gospel, the good news of the coming kingdom of God, the mercy of Islam. Get over it you latter day fans of Nimrod. Clues; Mount Sinai is in modern day Saudi Arabia, Mecca is where God tested the obedience of our Prophet Abraham (of Ur) pbuh, Hagar pbuh and Ishmael pbuh,the Haj commemorates this. Indeed how would the arms, tax, judicial, porn, prostitution, drug, gambling, racism, alchohol, crime, 'security' and 'entertainment' industies thrive if we lived in the Kingdom of God? Your country has been betrayed by your own people and you seek to blame Islam? 7/7 & 9/11 were false flag ops. You resent Muslims here but you conveniently forget the horrors inflicted upon thousands of Muslims and others by the disHonourable East India Trading Company. I'd be more concerned about Hawkesmoor's 'churches' than the odd minaret calling the faithful to prayer. Don't believe the hype. Assallamu alaikum.

30 November 2009 at 01:37  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Assalamalikum all,

To all the christians or people who claim to be lovers of christ, how many of you know your bible?How many of you have read the bible with context?How many of you follow the teachings of Prophet Isaa Jesus Peace be upon him?How many of you stay away from alcohol,illicit relationships,homosexuality,lying,cheating,seeing evil,hearing evil,speaking evil,being forgiving,charitable,kind,attending church,dressing modestly?
oh and that reminds me only the nuns are expected to dress modestly I think or is it you guys who have been getting the teachings all wrong?
Hypocrisy is so rampant today.Islam is the fastest growing religion today only because we follow what our holy book says because it has been revealed by Allah SWT?We practice what our prophets taught us.There is no separation of state and religion.Religion is one for all.We dont have priests and the clergy to guide us or different rules from us.We all have to follow the book and practice the same stuff.There's no place for righteouness or hypocrisy in islam.There are so many priests who go about molesting children only because they are not supposed to get married.Polygamy is not allowed or practiced.In islam if you want another woman you marry her legally and give her all the rights of a wife such as her own house and all the privileges.But since you do not have that luxury to get married you go about having illicit affairs and having mistresses and god knows what.

Open your eyes and mind and read for yourself.Do not listen to what others have to say.Go online get an english copy of the quran read for yourself.Islam teaches you to respect people and relationships and to give rights to others and be fair in your dealings.

I'm sorry if i appear to be sarcastic or rude but most of the comments are so derogatory towards islam and muslims its so sad
There's no place for objective thinking or logical healthy discussions anymore its all abt name calling and dominance and aggression
islam means peace assalamalikum means peace on you this is the greeting we muslims use to greet each other this religion means nothing else but peace and mercy on mankind if only people want to accept it and know about it with an open heart and mind

30 November 2009 at 03:43  
Blogger F.G.S.A said...

Nice article, my Lord. That's what democracy means- power in the hands of the citizens(not just some vague "people")to decide and here 57% have decided to ban something which they deem incompatible with their identity and landscape. If that would hav been left to the experts, i prefer not imagine what it would have been. From Servetus to the Mohammedans, progress indeed has been made from the stake to the ballot box. This is Europe.

30 November 2009 at 05:24  
Anonymous not a mouse said...

Oh how horrid! 'Citizen' is far too foreign and euSSR for me!! Amphibian. Rana-like even.

British, British People, People, British Subjects, British Indigenes - all are quite specific, for those who understand English!

30 November 2009 at 05:59  
Blogger F.G.S.A said...

Citizen in the sense of Athenian Citizen - having a right to stand in the assembly and vote. Yes, people as well. This is certainly a more venerable and solid heirloom from classical antiquity than the doubtful memory of painted bodies and "nos ancetres les gaulois"... Citizen in the sense of patriot- as Machiavelli meant it. Well, then, yes- also, Subjects. Get thee acquainted with thy classics- not a mouse

30 November 2009 at 06:14  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

At the risk of getting myself a Fatawa -

Sarah @ 01.37. You are incorrect when describing Jesus Christ as a "prophet"; this may well be the teaching of Islam, but it is an incorrect view.

A Christian believes and understands that Jesus was more than a prophet, but the son of God, who was crucified, died and was buried. On the third day he rose again. All for the remission of mankind's sin.

As the Bible says “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

So please do not get confused!

Also the Aon chap after you ,seems to have taken great delight in how all they have to do is follow the Koran and that’s it, everything is OK with the world.

The Bible and Christianity does have a lot to say about how to conduct ones life, but these teachings do not make you OK with God. They do not allow you into heaven. Only Jesus Christ can do such a thing, as he died for us, for our sins.

This is why the Christian Church is called to spread this good news to all mankind; that people may turn to Jesus and repent of their sins.

30 November 2009 at 08:06  
Anonymous Surreptitious Evil said...

Hank,

Amnesty are often quite rude about Saudi. Not just about religious freedom but the arbitrary death penalty, the fundamentally biased courts system, homophobia, the lack of rights of women, etc.

Except, of course, in Saudi those are all "religious" matters, aren't they. Perhaps Anon 03:43 can take some time away from spouting obvious nonsense (polygamy being forbidden in Islam, for one example) to explain why this is such a good thing? Or perhaps, he might read his Bible (if he is allowed such an evil book) and have a look at the differences between both the Old Covenant and the New and between the teachings of Jesus and letters of St Paul.

30 November 2009 at 08:08  
Blogger Robert said...

Like it or not people are worried over the Muslim faith and it's spread and it's ideology, you say something and they can place a decree against you and death.

I for one do not care if people vote for or against, I do not care if they put up a small minaret or tower, but what next the call to prayer, no thanks.

I'm happy for people to have religion but i do not need to be told at 6pm at night for twenty minutes telling me it's Muslim praying time.

30 November 2009 at 08:15  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace,

We’re the Swiss right to ban the construction of more minarets in the public square?

I believe so (and I think Calvin would have agreed).

However, the Swiss have a far deeper problem: the collapse of the Christian faith and the vacuum created will be filled by?

The reason why churches in this country are being converted into mosques and warehouses is because of the collapse of Christian faith. It is not enough to ensure the survival of one’s country by banning this-and-that; there must also be a positive reason for hope in tomorrow.

30 November 2009 at 08:22  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

D.Singh, I agree with you. The Church of England, for one, has lost its leadership; the Church is badly led and we hardly ever hear the teaching of Jesus Christ from the throne of Augustine. I blogged about this over the weekend- we need to go from maintenance to mission.

30 November 2009 at 08:36  
Anonymous not a mouse said...

Oh, FGSA - my classics aren't the absolute worst! I've gone off them recently, though. It's the euSSR wot's done it!

Here I sit reading Caesar and Tacitus, and what they said and did in relation to us: and all I can see is that their post-modern descendants are at it all over again! Which puts the ancients in a different light, you see.

Those Romans were fairly barbaric themselves - in our later sense of 'rough and nasty.' I suspect, in fact, that they probably had something to do with the traits of the amphibians who subsequently degraded everything!

Not that I would deny the academic supremacy of the Greeks. That, apparently, came to the English heathen most strongly after Augustine: via Hadrian, Theodore, and Biscop ~~ and so tempered by Christianity. From what I see, it was such Greek influence that favoured development of the vernacular, in the absence of Roman overlords.

I just prefer to retain that same individuality and stay beyond the reach of euroism.

30 November 2009 at 08:43  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Lord Lavendon

(Or any practising Christian)

How can a revival in the faith come about in this nation that sent missionaries to all the world?

30 November 2009 at 08:45  
Anonymous McKenzie said...

There are two types of scum: Cancer and AIDS, end of story.

30 November 2009 at 09:05  
Blogger F.G.S.A said...

Not a mouse- fairly understandable.

Yet i, for one, am a naive nostalgic of Roman Aristocratic-Republican ideals of simplicity and duty and all that, as i perceived them to be embodied in Cato the Elder and even Cicero. Which inheritance can be said to have lingered on in Venice, Genoa, and other city-republics of Italy.

Believing in traditional European values and civilisation does mean kow-towing to Brussels and its edicts.

The contribution of Greece and especially Byzantium in the forging of European identity is undisputable. And this identity is rooted in Christianity and Classical Culture.

I cannot see what's wrong with the word "citizen"...it's related to civilisation. Another Augustine wrote "The City of God" which was such an inspiration to Calvin.

Maybe BURGHER or BURGESS is a term more susceptible to please you.

The issue of Saxonism that Fowler described so well.

30 November 2009 at 09:23  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace,
How different the Swiss situation is to ours. They are able to affect their democracy whilst our democracy disintegrates in a pre-Christian Britain.

Here is how Dr Christopher Booker puts it:

‘If that is not the case, however, then let us be in no doubt as to the reality of the situation we shall be faced with. Like all the other peoples of Europe, we shall have become the victims of an immense, slow-motion coup d’etat. A coup d’etat brought off by a political class which holds both the idea of democracy and us, the peoples of Europe, in total contempt. We have rarely seen this more clearly expressed than in the reported comment this week of Nicolas Sarkozy, the new President of France, that there is no way in which the peoples of Europe should be allowed to give their views on the treaty through the ballot box. Such matters are simply not for the people to decide.

‘But if that observation reflects the contempt in which our new rulers hold us the people, then we must remember that contempt very often works both ways, If there is one thing about our contemporary Europe which is as obvious as the contempt in which we are now held by those who govern us, it is that the contempt is reciprocal. Never in history can the politicians and officials who make up the political class have commanded more universal distrust and scorn than today, as we see reflected in the ever dwindling turnout at elections and in the comments one hears on every side from people for whom politics and politicians have become words as dirty as any in the language. Even our ruling class in Brussels have long noticed what they call in their lofty way ‘the democratic deficit’, even if they have not the slightest idea how to do anything to remedy it.

‘But if the rulers and the ruled in any society get that far apart, as history shows, if both sides to a broken contract hold each other in equal contempt, if one side possesses the power and is only too ready to use it, while the other feels increasingly powerless to effect any change, then we have something building up which is potentially very dangerous. The pressure in the vessel is steadily increasing, while its lid is being screwed down tighter and tighter. The only way such a story can eventually end is in a very nasty and messy explosion.

‘Take away from people any right to control their own destiny, and eventually they will take their destiny back into their own hands. That is the stark reality of what we are confronted by today. Unless something gives, there will eventually be no alternative but a very nasty disintegration. And so long as Britain remains part of this crazed, self-deceiving enterprise, we shall be caught up in that mess just as surely as everyone else.’

30 November 2009 at 09:42  
Anonymous Highveld Brit said...

I am astonished by the line of argument in this post, which seems to be that because the Swiss have voted for a ban, those who disagree should just 'get over it'. Does whether the decision is right or wrong have any relevance, or are we simply to become slaves to public opinion?

Should those who worry about the supremacy of European law just 'get over it' because of the thumping majority in the 1975 referendum? Should those who are against this government's attacks on freedom of speech simply 'get over it' because the laws were passed by our democratically elected parliament?

Whatever you think of this decision, the fact that it was decided in a referendum does not mean that those who oppose it should 'get over it'. Public opinion in no way trumps the principle of right and wrong.

30 November 2009 at 09:46  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Highveld Brit

The difference between right and wrong should trump a majority decision.

It is as the 3rd President of the United States wrote:

‘All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.’

The Speech [First Inaugural Address]… on the 4th March 1801

That does not mean that the banning of the construction of more minarets is unreasonable or subtracts from the rights of Swiss Muslims. For to say that Islam in Switzerland must have equal rights with Christianity is to make the same Left-liberal assumption that Islam is equivalent to Christianity. It is not.

The Left-liberal assumption that all religious paths are located on the same mountain and in their own way wind ever upward, and lead to the same peak is erroneous.

30 November 2009 at 10:10  
Blogger D. Singh said...

shssh

30 November 2009 at 10:20  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Anonymous @ 3.47pm, you talk about hypocrisy. How then do you explain the hypocrisy of Muslims who emigrate to the West seeking a better standard of living, only to demand sharia and the right to live by the Muslim ways that have so disappointed them in the lands of their birth? How do you explain that there is a mosque in Rome but no cathedral in Mecca?

30 November 2009 at 10:30  
Blogger F.G.S.A said...

Furthermore i think that most cantons should re-introduce the landsgemeinde which would ensure that the federal governement has no say in such things. But still it is good to see such measures voted on on a national basis. Yet a big question is recurring to me: while we can assume that the executives of the cantons will implement this measure what of federal govt? Can the Swiss Fed Supreme Court review or overturn the measure?

30 November 2009 at 10:32  
Blogger Old Holborn said...

Swiss women should ask if they can build churches, drink alcohol and wear bikinis in Saudi Arabia. If not, why not?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/nov/29/swiss-vote-ban-minarets-fear

30 November 2009 at 10:39  
Blogger Old Holborn said...

PS. I also noted that the feminist left also voted for a ban

Can't think why.

30 November 2009 at 10:44  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"..... what does this say about the backward, unenlightened, extremist, xenophobic Swiss and their outdated, medieval views, their contempt for human rights and the tyrannical propensity by which they oppress the minorities who dwell among them?"

To me it says that the Muslims should fully understand the emotions concerned - after all it describes an Islamic Country's treatment of Christians perfectly.

30 November 2009 at 10:46  
Blogger Old Holborn said...

The interesting thing is that it is Balkan Muslims anyway.

Asylum seekers from liberated countries. OH strongly recommends a train ticket back to Bosnia to those deeply offended.

30 November 2009 at 10:55  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

"there is no hypocracy in islam"only if one overlooks the corner shop,which engages in all of the above mentioned forbidden practices,dealing in porn,alchohol,gambling,tobacco and in many instances class A drugs under the counter.The vote is a victory of sorts,but to all of those agonising over its rectiutude,there are only two choices ,resist or succumb,if you wish for the christian religion to continue,islam must be removed from our countries,there is no dialoge or compromise with a political system that seeks your extincion,yet you continue to tie your hands with moralism,when action is needed,act now and decide the ethics when we are free.

30 November 2009 at 10:56  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

D.Singh @8.45, I do not have the answer as such, but I would suggest that a great deal of prayer and reflection is required in order to revive the Church.

Many God fearing people can see the problem, but in order to find the solution, we must pray to God for correct discernment on what to do next.

Others have their own idea of how to revive Christianity, for example , the Pope’s recent overtures to the Anglo-Catholic Anglicans. But to my mind this solution is merely strengthening one part of God’s Church to the detriment of another part, rather than Christian conversion taking place (although with regret that is not how some Catholics would see it ).

30 November 2009 at 11:04  
Blogger Old Holborn said...

Quote of the day at my place

Some commentator has just declared the free and fair vote on how you want YOUR country to look as

"democratic tyranny"

I am still laughing

30 November 2009 at 11:18  
Anonymous Anabaptist said...

Anonymous tells us: 'I have spent quite some time in Arabian countries, and have noticed that there are no Christian buildings. No Christian symbols or signs, no Bibles. Anywhere.'

Well, Mr Anonymous, in Aswan (Arabic Republic of Egypt) there is an enormous, impressive, skyline-dominating Coptic Cathdral. I know: I have seen it.

30 November 2009 at 11:18  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

HighVeld Brit, I would just point out that in 1975, the vote to be part of the EEC was actually based upon Britain being part of a free trade bloc and not a part of a superstate in which English law can be over ruled by the EU(the change of name from European Economic Community to European Union sums this point up really).

30 November 2009 at 11:40  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Banning minerates indicate nothing except intolerance of ignorant people of Europe.

There are number of Muslim countries with hundreds of churches and the people of these countries never vote against or rip apart minority religious sentiments.

30 November 2009 at 12:16  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Destruction of the Buddhas of Bamyan: Historic Afghan cliff carvings are blown up after the Taliban deems them idolatrous.

March 2001

30 November 2009 at 12:28  
Blogger srizals said...

Blogger Lord Lavendon said...
"At the risk of getting myself a Fatwa -
Sarah @ 01.37. You are incorrect when describing Jesus Christ as a "prophet"; this may well be the teaching of Islam, but it is an incorrect view".

Can anyone tell me what is Jesus to the Jews or to the Zionist Christians and Zionist Jews?

Oh, In my homeland there are whispers asking us to follow the fine examples of democracy of the West to settle all the minorities' issues once and for all. It is getting easy. Thank you West! Ops, sorry, Swiss watches. Your wisdom, truly is inspiring.

Just to put things through perspective.

No, no one is going to kill U, me Lord. Salman Rushdie is knighted for spreading lies and is still living luxuriously sponsored by U. Thank U for taking care of him. Please take care of your poors too while U are at it.

8:33 PM in the lands of the Malay n giant churches reside peacefully, sometimes side by side with mosques.

30 November 2009 at 12:39  
Anonymous bag lady said...

"Banning minerates indicate nothing except intolerance of ignorant people of Europe."

So Iran is not being intolerant or ignorant when its leaders say they want to blow another country off the face and the earth then or allow wife beating or chop people's hands off for petty crime ?

"There are number of Muslim countries with hundreds of churches and the people of these countries never vote against or rip apart minority religious sentiments."

Anon used the word vote. Which Muslim countries are liberal democracies then?

30 November 2009 at 12:41  
Anonymous Highveld Brit said...

Lord Lavendon

I fear your memory might mislead you. The vote in 1975 was precisely about this point. The 1972 Act, which took us into Europe, explicitly states that European law will always take precedence over domestic law. Nothing near as sweeping has been in any further treaty. This was what the debate centred on - whether it was enough to simply continue with the free trade area (which had been in place for some years - and continues to this day with countries like Norway), or whether something much more robust was needed. The result is history. But it's simply not the case to say that the supremacy of European law was not at issue. European law was already supreme, and this was hotly debated.

30 November 2009 at 12:42  
Blogger srizals said...

Dear D Singh.

The Taliban is like KKK, or IRA or Irgun or Tamil Tigers and et cetera and et cetera. They had no respect of human's lives n his dignity. As same as the Sikh terrorists who fought for Amritsar. Don't U agree D. Singh?

30 November 2009 at 13:06  
Blogger D. Singh said...

With my compliments:

‘Certainly, by December 1960, Macmillan's thinking on "joining" the EEC had evolved to the extent that he agreed with Heath's request that the Lord Chancellor, Kilmuir, should be asked for an authoritative assessment of the impact on sovereignty of accepting the Treaty of Rome. Kilmuir's reply made it clear that there would be profound consequences in three key areas: the role of Parliament; treaty-making powers; and the independence of the courts:
• "Parliament would have to transfer to the Council, or other appropriate organs of the Community, its substantive powers of legislating over the whole of a very important field."
• "To confer a sovereign state's treaty-making powers on an international organization is the first step on the road which leads by way of confederation to the fully federal state. I do not suggest that what is involved would necessarily carry us very far in this direction, but it would be a most significant step and one for which there is no precedent in our case. ... [I]f binding treaties are to be entered into on our behalf, Parliament must surrender [the] function of [ratifying treaties that involve a change in domestic law or a change in taxation] and either resign itself to becoming a rubber stamp or give the Community, in effect, the power to amend our domestic law."
• "There is no precedent for our final appellate tribunal being required to refer questions of law (even in a limited field) to another court and accept that court's decision. ... I have no doubt that the whole of the legal profession in this country would share my dislike for such a proposal which must inevitably detract from the independence and authority of our courts." 89
• "I must emphasize that in my view the surrenders of sovereignty involved are serious and I think that as a matter of practical politics it will [sic] not be easy to persuade Parliament or the public to accept them. I am sure that it would be a great mistake to underestimate the force of the objections to them. But these objections ought to be brought out into the open now because, if we attempt to gloss over them, those who are opposed to the whole idea of our joining the Community will certainly seize on them with more damaging effect later on. Having said this, I would emphasize once again that, although these constitutional considerations must be given their full weight when we come to balance the argument son either side, I do not for one moment wish to convey the impression that they must necessarily tip the scale. In the long run, we shall have to decide whether economic factors require us to make some sacrifices of sovereignty: my concern is to ensure that we should see exactly what it is that we are being called upon to sacrifice, and how serious our loss would be." 90
Kilmuir's analysis of the loss of sovereignty was broadly accurate - and remember that this analysis of the treaty and institutional structure of the EEC was made as it stood in 1960, before the treaties of Maastricht, Amsterdam, and Nice and before the proposed European "constitution;" 91 and it was made before the ECJ made clear, through the series of smash-and-grab raids involved in Van Gend en Loos, Costa, and other cases from the early 1960s, just how voracious was its appetite for swallowing national sovereignty. Sadly, his advice that the issue should be brought into the open has consistently been rejected by British governments, notably by the government of the man, Heath, to whom his analysis was addressed and, of course, by Blair's government.’

The Circle of Barbed Wire, Bernard Connolly

30 November 2009 at 13:12  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

I think the last paragraph of D.Singh's post sums up my point rather well.

30 November 2009 at 13:23  
Anonymous Gavin Drake said...

srizals asked: "Can anyone tell me what is Jesus to the Jews or to the Zionist Christians and Zionist Jews?"

The Jewish Jews that I have spoken to see Jesus as a Rabbi (if they have any view at all about him) - his life on earth was at a time known in Judasim as the birth of Rabbinic Judaism and there were many Rabbis around at the time expounding new teaching. Most (but not all) Jews are Zionist.

Christian Jews, or Messianic Jews, see Jesus as the Mesiah; the fulfilment of the Jewish hope.

30 November 2009 at 13:37  
Anonymous Bag Lady said...

"Mount Sinai is in modern day Saudi Arabia"

Actually Sarah @1.37, mount sinai is in Egypt.....

30 November 2009 at 13:49  
Anonymous Hank Petram said...

Gavin Drake,

Those who call themselves "Christian Zionists" support the state of Israel because they believe in a prophecy that claims that some sort of Jewish state -- I'm not at all clear about the details -- is a necessary precondition for the Second Coming.

Of course, one be a Christian and at the same time be a Zionist -- that is, politically in favour of the continued existence of the state of Israel, and supportive of Israel's efforts to defend itself against its enemies -- without wearing the label "Christian Zionist", which has now come to designate a particular Christian sect or movement.

30 November 2009 at 13:52  
Anonymous Bag Lady said...

oh, as a Jew who converted to the C of E , does that make me one of the "Messianic Jews"? I was quite happy with Anglo-Catholic .

30 November 2009 at 13:56  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lord Lavendon, I don't know why you bother trying to communicate with D.Singh- he is not interested in revival in the church, only looking forward to the second comming as per his posts on the EU and Revelation and Daniel.

30 November 2009 at 14:21  
Blogger D. Singh said...

I asked because I am interested.

You silly socialist.

30 November 2009 at 14:34  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why is it Singh calls any one who challenges him a "silly socialist"?

30 November 2009 at 14:37  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Clear orff!

30 November 2009 at 14:41  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

I am not sure if the answer was the 'correct' one, but any revival has to be God centred and prayed upon.

I challenged myself recently to say,is this what God wants and if so, how ?

I am of the humble opinion God does want his Church to flourish, but how this will happen I am not sure. Hence the need for prayful reflection.

Sometimes reflection and prayer may seem like inaction or frustrating because sometimes one feels as if urgent action is required, especially given the current situations individuals are now in at the micro level and the general decline of our country at the macro level.

But it must be for him, not for us or the Church.

30 November 2009 at 15:14  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

D. Singh & Lord Lavendon:
Re revival - I don't know either, though it has recently been on my heart for both Britain & the US.
I think we each have to start repentance with ourselves, & prayerfully seek the Lord's will in His word. We can't will repentance or revival - only the Holy Spirit can bring that.
The times are so bad, for both church & country, that fasting (for those who physically can) might be an idea.
I may be wrong, but we may be being partly judged for things done in governments' names for many years, as well as generally in the churches and in society.
I read one of the Old Testament prophetical books recently, & there is so much about of the sins of the Pharisee as well as the Prodigal. I have been recently hoping God would strengthen those men who already lead faithfully, raise up more to lead with a shepherd's heart teaching, caring and leading the flocks etc., and to get rid of some of the wolves, regardless of denomination. Likewise women for younger women and children. I am also concerned about the increasing indiviual attacks on Christians as well as the harshness & lawlessness (including by some officials) of society, sometimes even in the church. If persecution increases, the church will need to be strong and connected. It could be brutal & I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
There is so much in the Old Testament prophets and Revelation (as well as the whole bible) to see what God likes & dislikes. I may well be wrong - these may be my individual thoughts, and I am not a teacher or leader (and female), so these are my thoughts alone in my journey with the Lord.
I do wish there was more good teaching for these difficult times, though greatful for the good that is out there.
I agree that it must be for Him, not for us or the church. Selfishness seems to rear its ugly head so easily this side of heaven. The potential national & other threats to freedoms, including to worship & act in good conscience, and to privacy, are not something I ever expected growing up and I am still shocked by the changes over the recent years.

30 November 2009 at 16:43  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Prime Minister of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan, publicly read an Islamic poem including the lines: “The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and Muslims our soldiers…” "

Try this:
http://tinyurl.com/yzfhfag

30 November 2009 at 17:03  
Anonymous not a mouse said...

F.G.S.A:

Clearly some Romans, sometimes, came up with arguments for values that remain constant. However, some were rotten through - as euros are today. Otherwise, they did copy the Greeks, rather: tried to out-Greek them in some ways, according to Horace.

Nevertheless, I expect the ideals of 'simplicity and duty' accorded well with the Christianity that some of them espoused and propagated. Though must say I quite enjoy Melville's 'Bartleby' as a comment on some potential effects of Cicero! [So much depends on the interpretation by a given individual, doesn't it?]

Yet I cannot admire Italy or Romans wholesale! Part of that's a response to the places they left behind. I was so longing to see Rome - and so disappointed when I got there. Same with Hadrian's Wall. I can't get away from the atmosphere in their places. Actually, I was never comfortable anywhere on the euro continent: including Zurich, even if that doesn't feel Roman!

Overall, of course, I don't accept so-called euro values and edicts: to me they're not about anything except their dominance and our destruction. Like all hypocrites, liars, and cheats, they pretend to the values but use them to enslave others. Tacitus remarked something of the kind, quite famously.

I utterly refute european identity, then. What I value about Britain is our (erstwhile) ability to take what is good and to develop it in our own way. At the same time, we have refused what doesn't work. I see that as the mark of our freedom and independence. I see the Swiss as having done that this week and applaud them for it.

I didn't know that Augustine of Hippo had affected Calvin: though I'm more for Wyclif than Calvin. However, that same Augustine surely contributed much to the early English church! My reading of his 'Enchyridion' especially informs my view that the cities of men can provide gateways to the eternal telos: however badly they compare. I believe Chaucer saw it that way, too.

You mistake my claim to Anglian - german identity! I believe it influenced my part of the world greatly, but that we retain much from our other influences too. Also, while I think Oppenheimer might have a point about the development of English - I remain unconvinced of the scale of his claim. There are other possibilities, and he strikes me as working a euro angle.

[[Yes, I recognise the etymology of 'citizen' and 'civilisation.' As I say, I just refute the euro version: especially the franco-german aspect. And never, under any circumstances, will I consider myself a 'citizen' of theirs. I will act however I can to destroy that concept: it's the most revolting insult they could perpetrate.]]

30 November 2009 at 17:09  
Anonymous Williams said...

I see even Lord Lavetory is being taken in by the evangelical right.

Whilst you expect rantings from Singh, it is shocking coming from his lordship.

What madness is this ??

30 November 2009 at 17:52  
Anonymous Knighthawk said...

Lord Lavendon @15:14
Anon@16:43

Only God himself can power a revival. The minister cannot. The Church cannot, with all her efforts. It's not our perogative to do this. It only belongs to the Lord our God. "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord." If he will visit his Church, then we shall see the wilderness rejoice, but if not, we must plough, as is our duty, and we may work to fulfil our calling. But never doubt the true progress of the Church. Believe that, notwithstanding every discouragement that checks our growth, the cause of God goes on; it must go on, and it shall go on, till Jesus Christ returns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

To your tents, you Philistines, when the God of Israel comes to the battle! Where will you be? Your ranks are broken; When God comes forth he has but by his Spirit to blow upon his enemies, and they fly before him, like the chaff before the wind. The Lord himself has said “I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Who, then, shall disannul His decree? Though foes may laugh and fiends may plot, He will keep His word; it shall come to pass, and He will get Himself renown.

30 November 2009 at 17:57  
Anonymous Islamic Europe said...

I just think it shows the ignorance of the religion of peace. I only hope the right does not try that here- as there would be a bloody backlash by muslims in defence of their religious freedoms and way of life.

30 November 2009 at 17:58  
Anonymous sm said...

good move
but same treatment should be given to all religions and places of worship.

30 November 2009 at 18:46  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the Truth about Islam

http://www.veetle.com/viewChannel.php?cid=4b12fbea698ff

30 November 2009 at 19:35  
Blogger about merketing said...

I thought quite a few Swiss are not hospitable to foreigners like some Swiss-German speakers resent Germans who speak only high German in their country. Group attacks on foreigners aren't unknown either. I guess the true color of "old" Switzerland would come out if stripping it of all the financial progress gained from foreign investments.
Attorney
Moremony

30 November 2009 at 19:51  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Islamic Europe @ 17.58, three great lies

1) The cheque is in the post.
2) I'll only put it in a little way.
3) Islam is the religion of peace.

30 November 2009 at 19:55  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lord Lavetory, you are clearly not a true evangelical, so I don't know why you constantly go on about a revival....

30 November 2009 at 19:59  
Anonymous len said...

Islam’s Two Houses,



The Koran sees the world as divided into two, one part which has come under Islamic rule and one part which is supposed to come under Islamic rule in the future. There is a division of the world which is very clear. Every single person who starts studying Islam knows it. The world is described as Dar al-Islam (the house of Islam) - that's the place where Islam rules - and the other part which is called Dar al-Harb, the house of war. Not the "house of non-Muslims," but the "house of war." It is this house of war which has to be conquered.The World will continue to be in the house of war until it comes under Islamic rule.

30 November 2009 at 20:37  
Anonymous Dar al-Harb said...

terrible decision by the backward looking swiss kaffurs- whatever happened to human rights ! Europe should overturn this ban at once !

30 November 2009 at 20:44  
Anonymous Dar al-Harb said...

len is a stupid kaffur.

30 November 2009 at 20:45  
Blogger Preacher said...

Revival!
Lord Lavendon & other interested parties. Revival will come, but only when WE play our part, the Church needs to get out of sleep mode & start doing what the Lord Jesus told us to do. Most of the time we wander aimlessly about, unaware of the dynamic power of the Lord that is available to us. We seek Christian entertainment, instead of converts bought by the Precious Blood of the Cross. Our Churches are often religous instead of active & alive with the lava hot flow of Gods Love for the lost. Church leaders are left as generals without an army to lead. We want to discriminate about who should be saved instead of letting God decide. God is HOT, We are lukewarm. The lost will be judged & go to Hell & we say "Oh what a shame". Are we scared of Islam, is this why there is so much anti Islamic posting? They are only human beings who live under a restrictive religion that will not save them. They live in fear of offending their own religion which blinds their eyes to the truth of Gods mercy, love & provision in Jesus.When Abraham went to sacrifice Issac, God stayed Abraham's hand & said "I will provide the sacrifice"-"I" Me, Myself- prophecy! Jesus! Emmanuel- God With Us.
It's up to US, Revival is a breath away, Jesus commands us to "go", speak out the gospel to All who will listen. Fear no man, only live in awe of Almighty God & serve only Him. The hour is late, "Multitudes, Multitudes in the valley of decision!" don't hesitate you may be their only hope.

30 November 2009 at 21:15  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

I am minded to think of the following hymn:

O Lord, the clouds are gathering
The fire of judgement burns
How we have fallen!
O Lord, you stand appalled to see
Your laws of love so scorned
And lives so broken

Have mercy, Lord, (Men)
Have mercy, Lord, (Women)
Forgive us, Lord, (Men)
Forgive us, Lord (Women)
Restore us, Lord (All)
Revive your church again
Let justice flow (Men)
Let justice flow (Women)
Like rivers (Men)
Like rivers (Women)
And righteousness like a never failing stream (All)

O Lord, over the nations now
Where is the dove of peace?
Her wings are broken
O Lord, while precious children starve
The tools of war increase
Their bread is stolen

O Lord, dark powers are poised to flood
Our streets with hate and fear
We must awaken!
O Lord, let love reclaim the lives
That sin would sweep away
And let your kingdom come

Yet, O Lord, your glorious cross shall tower
Triumphant in this land
Evil confounding
Through the fire your suffering church display
The glories of her Christ
Praises resounding!

Graham Kendrick
Copyright © 1987 Make Way Music,

30 November 2009 at 21:23  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lord kuffar Lavendon is wrong- Islam will triumph in this land and we shall see Europe once more run by the Islamic caphilite!

30 November 2009 at 21:42  
Anonymous Hank Petram said...

the Islamic caphilite!

Sounds like something you get at Starbucks. Don't tell me Starbucks been taken over by the Jihad?

30 November 2009 at 22:16  
Anonymous Religion of peace said...

Kuffar Lavendon, Jesus was just a prophet, I do not know why you maintain he was the son of Allah or why you think he 'rose again on the third day'. I do not know why you struggle with such a basic fact,as an intelligent man.

30 November 2009 at 22:18  
Anonymous Religion of Peace said...

Yes, Anon mocks the religion of peace. The Islamic caliphate will bring order and peace to europe. If only people like Singh, Preacher and Lavendon could embrace and see this destiny.

30 November 2009 at 22:27  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Chaps, what is a Caliphate? I thought it was something you needed when you got a bit older, for your bladder?

30 November 2009 at 22:30  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Also to 'the religion of peace', I have made my beliefs quite clear, so there is not much to say in response to your posts. But I wish you didn't call me 'the kuffar lavendon'.

30 November 2009 at 22:33  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Hank Petram. I don't know what it is about Starbucks, but my 'dickie' stomach just can't take the coffee. Is there any other decent coffee outlets out there ? (I have been struggling since Coffee Republic went under).

30 November 2009 at 22:39  
Anonymous no nonny said...

"Prime Minister of Turkey Recep Tayyip Erdogan, publicly read an Islamic poem including the lines: “The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and Muslims our soldiers…” "

Hmmm.
So here's the Christian version. St. Paul to the Ephesians, 10-17 (KJV)

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Put on the whole armour of God that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God.

... the idea then being to pray and to preach the Gospel, and for brethren in Christ to live in Peace and Grace...

Amen.

30 November 2009 at 22:52  
Blogger Preacher said...

Hi Hank.
Anon must be an Arsenal supporter, great own goal!.

'Religion of Peace'
Jesus was not 'just' a prophet, He was much more , as a study of the Old Testament prophecies of Messiah & the New Testament fulfillment of the same will prove to any who have the courage to look. Seek & you will find. Did he rise from the dead? Yes! no doubt about it & backed up by 2000 years of christian witness & martyrs, proof? He's Still alive & changing lives, don't believe me? go in a bookshop & buy & read one of the countless testimonies of wrecked human lives He's turned around & changed, then read some more! dead men & dead religion change nothing only the LIVING Lord can!

Warmest regards: Preacher.

30 November 2009 at 22:53  
Blogger Tarquin said...

Whatever your views on Islam - if there was a vote on free speech and it was banned by a slight majority would you agree that it was 'right'?

They are of course a free sovereign country - but as a member of the UN, and as part of their own constitution they are bound by the ECHR and the UN charter of human rights through their own bill of rights

This is clearly against those rights, as they have deliberately banned a particular religious symbol - they could have banned towers over a certain height or something, they could have just denied planning permission as they already do, but this was a legal measure squarely aimed at certain religious paraphernalia, and is consequently against human rights which guarantee freedom of conscience

If a democracy banned an aspect of free speech, or sexuality, or even a racial group this would be exactly the same - as a sovereign country they can do as they wish, but this is against the fundamental human rights that they signed up to - they can't be considered a 'free' country if they keep this decision

30 November 2009 at 23:28  
Anonymous non mouse said...

There is a ban on free speech - and it is enforced by a minority.
Just to drive the point home: nobody asked us a dicky bird.

30 November 2009 at 23:41  
Anonymous Hank Petram said...

Lord Lavendon, me too, I've never found Starbucks coffee to my taste. Not that it's given me any gastric problems -- I live in Brazil and my digestive system has learnt to deal with abundant quantities of strong black coffee. When I'm in the UK I still drop in at a Starbucks from time to time, however, mainly these days as a political gesture of support for an institution that has been a target for anti-Israeli vandalism. A reverse boycott, so to speak.

1 December 2009 at 00:20  
Anonymous GTGTWG said...

After reading these posts it's as plain as the church/mosque on the landscape that tolerance is very thin on the ground for one another’s beliefs. The Swiss people have voted. They don't want any more minarets. I Respect that. Likewise, if a Muslim country doesn’t want Christian churches being erected, I respect that. Even those who talk of the Swiss being intolerant are being intolerant of the Swiss and their wishes! Shame we can’t enjoy each other instead of arguing the toss over who God favours the most!!!!

My soul searching can’t for the life of me come up with an answer as to which religion God would side with. But I do know this…if you talk of war and killing you’re not respecting or listening to God…only your perception of what/who God is, and what God wants, likes, dislikes etc.

1 December 2009 at 06:56  
Blogger Young Mr. Brown said...

My comment is a bit long, so I've posted it here.

1 December 2009 at 08:44  
Anonymous bluedog said...

no nonny at 22.52, the PM of Turkey also said, 'Democracy? Its just a bus stop on the way to sharia'. Remember too that whoever wrote the Koran had the Bible to draw upon for inspiration. So if St Paul used a military metaphor it not impossible that 600 years later it was a cut and paste job into an Islamic text, suitably re-branded.

1 December 2009 at 09:58  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the reality behind swis peoples denial of minority rights is that the people of siws need to be re-educated about western civilization.the have today shied away and uprooted the most basic foundation of western democracy.

1 December 2009 at 12:27  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

@ Anonymous: How hollow and treacherous you sound! Go to Mecca and spew your vomit there! Let's see how long you will last!

In a normal society you would say this only behind the bars of your prison you deserve as a traitor. But in this democratic idiocracy (like the DDR - Deutsche Democratische Republik - former communist Germany) people like you have wrongly be talen seriously and put even on a platform to rule the land...thus leading to the moral and other destruction thereof.

1 December 2009 at 13:59  
Blogger F.G.S.A said...

Not a mouse.

Yes i respect your attachment to a specific British way of life. It is insularity that makes us special- i'm an islander too.

I admire the Swiss for what they did. My point being that Europeans must unite to get push back this invasion. Unite, of course, for such a purpose- not within the legal and political frame of the European Union.

The Sceptred Isle can contribute much to this operation. But military spirit is now sadly lacking in Europe and the isles. Democracy, even at its best, is just delay. The final hour will come when the choice between an axe( well, a gun) and words will be a matter of life and death.

Seems that some predictions in a speech made 40 years ago by a certain E.P., Rivers of Something, has come to be true

1 December 2009 at 14:03  
Anonymous not a mouse said...

FGSA: Thanks for the clarification, and for the exchange.

I remember walking home from school, those 40 years ago, arguing that EP was right!!

And now, as WS had Gaunt prophesy: "this fortress built by Nature for herself..." "This land of such dear souls, this dear dear land,
Is now leas'd out--I die pronouncing it--
Like to a tenement or pelting farm."
(RII, II.1; 43; 57-60)

Bluedog - Thanks for the extra info on the Turkey person! Yes, I note that both they and the marxist-euSSR are great distorters and plagiarisers! Apparently we're too stupid to notice.

1 December 2009 at 15:51  
Anonymous not a mouse said...

FGSA: Thanks for the clarification, and for the exchange.

I remember walking home from school, those 40 years ago, arguing that EP was right!!

And now, as WS had Gaunt prophesy: "this fortress built by Nature for herself..."
"This land of such dear souls, this dear dear land,
Is now leas'd out--I die pronouncing it--
Like to a tenement or pelting farm."
(RII, II.1; 43; 57-60)

1 December 2009 at 15:53  
Anonymous no nonny said...

Bluedog - Thanks for the extra info on the Turkey person. Yes, I have observed that both they and the marxist-euSSR are great distorters and plagiarisers!

I guess we're supposed to be too stupid to notice ... or, just maybe and occasionally, they're so ignorant they don't know they're doing it.

1 December 2009 at 15:57  
Anonymous Paul B said...

His Grace has spoken, and as usual hes on the money. Get over it.

1 December 2009 at 16:04  
Blogger kris said...

"Democracy" my arse.

The UK is a constitutional monarchy - not a democracy. The United States is a republic- not a democracy. Even Switzerland must have a constitution - it therefore is not a democracy.

"Democracy" is mob rule. It's all very clever when you agree with the mob - but, to paraphrase, who is going to be there when the mob comes for you.

I expect more from Cranmer.

2 December 2009 at 09:01  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

satanic cult of islam? Listen to yourself. Thats as absurd as saying satanic cult of christianity. Research islam and you will find that in the history of Islam and in the present-day most muslims are peace-loving and good people who do not condone the violence some muslims resort to. As for the noise of the call to prayer, why dont muslims say the sound of the church bells are noisy? Because the majority respect and are tolerant. This is evident all over the world. They are also compelled by God in the Quran to let other religions practice their religion. Do your homework before making unreasonable remarks. You will that we're all the same, believing in One God but because different prophets were sent to different people their descendants influenced religion.

11 December 2009 at 11:06  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you will find

11 December 2009 at 11:07  
Anonymous len said...

Anon 11.06 In your Koran, as you must know, Allah commands Muslims, "Take not the Jews and Christians as friends 1 Surah 5:51, A1 Hi1-a1i, v. 54, Jusuf a1i), so Allah is not the God of the Christians either. In the hadith, Muhammad himself said, "The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them" (Mishkat al Masabih Sh. M. Ashraf, 1990, pp. 147, 721, 810-11, 1130, etc.). Islam's god hates the Jews; the God of the Bible loves them as His chosen people! Allah is very clearly not Jehovah, Elohim, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the God of the Bible!

11 December 2009 at 19:13  
Blogger srizals said...

Hi Len, I'm impressed. You've done your homework it seems. May I ask your permission to clarify your doubts if you can promise me not to shy away from our conversation as before? Or should I wait after Anon 11.06 explain it to you first.

12 December 2009 at 12:39  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"In muslim countries, would a Christian minority get away with creating a stone bell tower with a cross on the top?"

Depends on teh country I suppose but not the one I lived in. I was in Saudi Arabia for two years. I would hide my Bible in my bags wrapped in towels afraid it would get discovered in customs and confiscated...or worse I get arrested. We worshipped in private by ourselves or quitely in small groups in homes not telling anyone outside our group. If caught evangelising one could be deported, arrested and jailed, killed, or anything in between. Five times a day I would hear "Allah Akbar". During the longest days of the year it would start at 4:30 a.m. and the last call would be after 8:00 p.m. I lived in a small western compound. There was a minaret mounted a few feet from the wall (no mosque mind you) with that relentless blaring out of a speaker 7 days a week. Talk about "in your face". The only reason for that was for ur "benefit". Any old pre-islaming sites that wer in Saudi have been systematically vandalized and destroyed by the backwards, retarded. inbred clerics and their radical, convict laden mutawah with IQs around 50 on a good day. I've seen all of this. So the question about christian spires??? not on your life!!!! So as far as I'm concerned the muslims who might get upset in Switzerland can kiss my ass.

16 December 2009 at 13:20  

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