Thursday, December 17, 2009

The Christmas Cards of our Political Leaders

The Prime Minister's chosen image is pagan and political. A liliputian door of Number 10 supplants the Star of Bethlehem. The Druids used to hang holly on windows and doorways to fend off evil witches and spirits. It is also associated with maleness (its feminine counterpart is ivy) and is considered to bring men good luck and protection. The Druids regarded holly as a symbol of fertility and eternal life: it was thought to have magical powers. The Romans decked the halls with its boughs during the festival of Saturnalia.
David Cameron's chosen image is partisan, political and frosty. The pinnacle of the Palace of Westminster within the party's logo supplants the Wise Men searching for the Son of God.

The image chosen by the Speaker is indulgent, egocentric boring and bland. No tinsel, tree, frost or holly. The Bercow family supplant the Holy Family.
The image chosen by Tony Blair is surprising: one might have expected such a passionate convert to Rome to have made an effort to draw attention to the birth of Jesus. Cherie and Tony supplant the Madonna and Child.

And the image chosen by Nick Clegg says everything one needs to know about the Liberal Democrats.

Update: 18:00.

His Grace confesses to being a little miserable at the moment, and he couldn't begin to explain why. He regrets using Mr Clegg's card to make a partisan point. On reflection, this was unkind and wrong.

In fact, after pondering all these cards for the day, Mr Clegg's is actually the most sincere - he may himself be an atheist, but his card is the only one to mention 'Christmas' and it is evidently drawn by one of his children. There is nothing 'PR' about it: it is not glossy, tacky, political, partisan or pretentious.

So His Grace was wrong, and he apologises to Mr Clegg.

Merry Christmas one and all, including the Liberal Democrats.


Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Your Grace, a bit of a poor show, especially for the overty Christian Blairs (and Cameron who claims to be Cof E).

Well, all of my Christmas cards are Christian, including a Bible verse. We order them from the leprosy mission.

17 December 2009 at 12:25  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace,

I thought Mr Clegg was an atheist?

Word verification: 'singe'!

Excellen, Your Grace!

17 December 2009 at 12:27  
Blogger The Anti Christ said...

All my cards are Christian with ten bible verses and I order them from the 'People Starving to Death Society'. I buy my Turkey from the second hand shop and always give fruit grown in orphanages as presents.

I am a real Christian you see.


17 December 2009 at 12:38  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just because people say they are "Christians", just because some church leaders serve communion to them or welcome them, doesn't make them Christians.
"The fear of man will prove to be a snare".

I hope that any who are fake Christians but who choose to portray themselves as "Christian" for votes or to receive the benefits of the church will remember that the public will not decide on the Day of Judgement, that our Lord isn't fooled by spin, and that our Lord will rule and reign for eternity, not their PR or psyops machines.
Any real Christians who are fearing man and giving into a fear of being associated with our Lord, I hope that they will ask Him for courage.
Happy Christmas

17 December 2009 at 12:51  
Anonymous Jim Bucker said...

I think the anti Christ blogger needs to get a new Pseudonym as the words Christian and Anti-Christ don't really mix well, do they?

17 December 2009 at 12:55  
Blogger Gnostic said...

I rather like the first two designs, Your Grace. Strictly from a commercial point of view, you understand. The other three are dismal.

As far as the actual meaning of Christmas is concerned, the cards are, of course, unfit for purpose. But then, if you look at it from that perspective, so are 9 out of 10 Christmas cards sold these days. Hands up who hasn't sent a card depicting Santa, a decorated tree, cuddly animals, robins, snowy village scenes, Rudolph etc.

17 December 2009 at 12:58  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

"I thought Mr Clegg was an atheist?"

And this would matter why?

17 December 2009 at 13:09  
Anonymous The Pullover said...

Because why would clegg participate in something which he denies exists ?? Perhaps that's why the left/liberals like to re-name Christmas Winterville and such like !

17 December 2009 at 13:17  
Anonymous circus monkey said...

The Australians used to talk about the "cultural cringe". What we have had in public life these many years is the "Christian Cringe" and these examples that you have given are fine examples of it!"

17 December 2009 at 13:27  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Oh please get a grip of yourself and drag yourself back to reality for a moment.

The Christmas period was a festival time of year long before christianity ever laid claim to it.

You can quite easily use it as a time of year for spending with loved ones and enjoying what you have without having to worry about making the little baby jebus cry in his crib because you don't believe in him.

17 December 2009 at 13:30  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Oh silly me, atheists can't have loved ones and appreciate what we have because we are far to busy going out raping people and performing backstreet abortions to satisfy our godless whims.

Anyway, lunch time, going to nip down to Gregs the bakers and see if I can't get a little black baby in a bun, yum yum.

17 December 2009 at 13:32  
Anonymous Mark Blades said...

A not very interesting piece today. Psychobabble in terms of its interpretive quality of the cards and not very funny if the story was meant to be amusing.

17 December 2009 at 13:34  
Blogger D. Singh said...

It’s true! It’s true! Glovner has started speaking to himself! Please you Christians don’t pray for his soul; he might get saved; and then poor me might have to live next door to him for all eternity.

17 December 2009 at 13:38  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Blades,

His Grace apologises for being of little interest to you today.

He was not aware that you had subscribed to a service which promised any expectations.

You are welcome not to visit: you are welcome to entertain yourself elsewhere. Merry Christmas.

17 December 2009 at 13:39  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

What are you babbling on about now you silly little man?

17 December 2009 at 13:42  
Blogger Jomo said...

As your Grace learnt to his cost,

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help."

I guess we get the leaders we deserve.

I can imagine the groans of dismay from the unlucky recipients of a card from Blair or Bercow.

17 December 2009 at 13:58  
Anonymous The PullOver said...

I actually thought the analysis quite good. The Clegg one is the worst, or is the Blair one worst? Who knows. They are all pretty bad.

Also, is it me or are people decidedly grumpy today?

First we have the sarcasm of the Anti Christ, followed by the silly comment by Mark Blades ,

Then The Glovner said "What are you babbling on about now you silly little man?" oh dear .....

As D.Singh said, stop talking to yourself old chap, hope you had a nice lunch from Greggs BTW.

17 December 2009 at 14:06  
Anonymous Winterfest celebration said...

Well we can't call them Christmas Cards anymore- to fit in with modern times they have to be called any of the following:

1) Winterfest
2) Winterville
3) Winterland festival

Anyone else got any anecdotes of the left/liberals trying to deny Christmas and the reason why we celebrate this season?

17 December 2009 at 14:11  
Blogger Botogol said...

In ascending order of self-indulgence -

5th Cameron
4th Brown
3rd Blair
2nd Clegg
1st the most self-indulgent, and the most nauseating: Bercow

Cameron's is the cleverest design, with Brown's second, and these two only are suitable for mass-mailing that will be done with them - the desings indicating clearly that the cards are sent by virtue of the person's position (prime minister, leader of conservatives) and not in a personal capacity.

Indeed one assumes that GB and DC send entirely different cards to their personal friends, while Bercow sends.. yup.. that one to everyone.

17 December 2009 at 14:12  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

"hope you had a nice lunch from Greggs BTW."

I did, thank you very much.

17 December 2009 at 14:23  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

"stop talking to yourself old chap"

At what point was I talking to myself anyway? Or have we actually descended to the playground level of wit with such a perfect riposte as "I know you are, but what am I?"

17 December 2009 at 14:26  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Glovner,

Why don’t you go and play on the Guardian’s website with like-minded people – and let the intellectuals here discuss the important issues of the day?

It would be better all round.

P.S. you say you'd like to be with 'loved ones' at this time of year. Well really! I thought as an evolutionist you might have remained consistent and said you'd like to remain around the products of chance + time + matter = collections of molecules.

17 December 2009 at 14:39  
Blogger Young Mr. Brown said...

While none of them are exactly to my taste, I think that Mr Clegg's is much the best.

I shudder at the photos of Messers Blair and Bercow; I shudder at the naked partisanship of Mr. Cameron's; and I find the Prime Minister's to be strange in the extreme.

I can imagine a normal family sending one like the Cleggs. It even says "Happy Christmas" instead of "Season's greetings."

17 December 2009 at 14:42  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

Tony Blair made such a spectacular production out of his conversion to Catholicism just recently.
Someone should inform him
that Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ and is one of the most important days on the Christian calendar.'Seasons Greetings' cards are sent by those
who are not religious..oh but that's right,he's not religious is he!

17 December 2009 at 14:48  
Blogger ultramontane grumpy old catholic said...

Your Grace

These cards merit some critical analysis.

Gordon Brown: once upon a time, the world listened to the views of Number 10 downing Street. Now, by representing it as a bauble on the Christmas tree, it signifies the true extent of the UK's influence in the world after 12 years of NU labour mayhem - all glitter, no substance.

David Cameron: showing a frosty Westminster at Christmas - is this his true belief, and all that cant about person made global warming, and polar bears hopping from ice flow to ice floe is just genuflecting to the political correctness de nos jours and merely a bubble of hot air? Surely if he really believed in the green gospel, a palm tree would be more apt - or at least a windmill on top of Big Ben

The Blairs and the Bercows: these are such cheesy cards you can almost smell them. On the scale of cheesiness, the Berks are represented by a very ripe Pont L'Eveque (sea state 12 as the French would say). The Blairs probably a Camembert (sea state 10).

Clegg: an infantile card for infantile libdem policies. Sir Alexander Douglas-Hume once admitted he used matchsticks to do his economics. Compared with the clegg approach, - i.e waiting for Father Christmas - this seems highly sophisticated.

What's missing is the atheist card, to celebrate the miraculous birth of clinton richard dawkins in a lonely kraal in nairobi.

17 December 2009 at 15:10  
Anonymous Rosscoe said...

At least Nick Clegg drew his card himself...

17 December 2009 at 15:39  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

"Why don’t you go and play on the Guardian’s website with like-minded people – and let the intellectuals here discuss the important issues of the day?"

Intellectuals? While there is certainly some people here that fall into that category please don't try to state that is the point in the scale where you fit.

But what you are basically looking for is for everyone who disagrees with your warped views to go away or say nothing so you can sail on through life making your illogical rants, twisting the truth and talking nonsense. And if nobody is here to disagree with you? Well in your silly mind that would mean you are right.

"It would be better all round."

It would be better for you.

"P.S. you say you'd like to be with 'loved ones' at this time of year. Well really! I thought as an evolutionist you might have remained consistent and said you'd like to remain around the products of chance + time + matter = collections of molecules."

You really are a spiteful, pathetic little man and paragraphs like this do nothing to convince otherwise.

So now an atheist who agrees with the theory of evolution is incapable of love in your eyes? Or is it more? I have to make assumptions since you very seldom say what you actually mean with your psychobabble. Are you actually saying that the subjective emotion of love is only able to be felt by christians now?

I have never witnessed so much hate, derision, arrogance and pettiness from one person, and you call yourself a christian.

What not tell us what you really feel?

17 December 2009 at 15:40  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

@ultramontane grumpy old catholic

But us atheists don't worship anyone, let alone Dawkins.

17 December 2009 at 15:41  
Blogger The Anti Christ said...

But I am The Anti Christ? And in anycase, I don't go to church so I don't get crwaled over by swarthy MF Christian control freaks. The outside world is shafted beyond repair.

Xmas cards - I don't use them.

17 December 2009 at 15:43  
Anonymous tired and emotional said...

Ahhh, I rather liked Nick Clegg's card. I bow to no-one in my contempt for the Lib Dems but a bit mean of you Archbish.

17 December 2009 at 15:44  
Blogger The Anti Christ said...

Jesus knows what's wrong with me, if He doesn't then He can go to Hell as far as I am concerned.

17 December 2009 at 15:53  
Blogger The Anti Christ said...

Your Grace

It is true I am unusual and I am in an unusually strange mood today. Talking of cards and festive cheer and self indulgence always gets me gripes up.

Has anyone seen this (below) posted on the New Humanist website? What is a New Humanist anyways? I did not get familiar with the old version but why is it a thinkers magazine?

They do not come across as being very confident but rather insecure in their faith. I mean why does being a Humanist have to involve ridicule unless there is a need to quell fear?

Anyway take a look at THIS and see what you think.

Sorry if I offend but shut up for God sake nobody cares.

17 December 2009 at 16:02  
Anonymous Widow Twanky said...

Why doesn't everyone just cheer up! We are a week away from Crimbo....... what about a bit of that Xmas spirit- we might even get Glovner and D.Singh to be nice to each other !(well I do believe in miracles after all!).

17 December 2009 at 16:02  
Anonymous not a machine said...

I rather think there should be a pack of cards based around the deceitful socialists ,similar to those issued for the capture of the Iraqi Baathest organisation .

17 December 2009 at 16:03  
Anonymous Joe Charlie said...

"All my cards are Christian with ten bible verses and I order them from the 'People Starving to Death Society'. I buy my Turkey from the second hand shop and always give fruit grown in orphanages as presents."

Wow! The blogger 'The Anti Christ' is an example for the rest of us.

17 December 2009 at 16:04  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Well D.Singh will be pleased to know that he won't have to deal with me for at least 3 weeks as I jet off along with my beautiful wife to the US to visit my in-laws and spend Christmas with loved ones.

Even if i'm not deemed capable by Mr Singh to involve myself in such christian things as love and celebration, i'll give it a bash.

17 December 2009 at 16:06  
Anonymous Gerald Roxburghe said...

Nooooo! How will we cope without The Glovner, perhaps he should take a laptop so he can get some intelligent reading- esp. as he's off to the US, esp. if it's for 3 whole weeks!

17 December 2009 at 16:11  
Anonymous Joe Charlie said...

When the Glovner refers to intellectuals on this blog, presumably he refers to his left/liberal/marxist/atheist friends? If not state the ones who he does think are intellectual!

17 December 2009 at 16:15  
Blogger The Lakelander said...

I'm just amazed that anyone could find a photo of Cherie Blair with her mouth shut!

17 December 2009 at 16:25  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

If you are that bothered I can always log in from the iPhone.

I've found SydneySider to provide some insightful comments on my time here.
Marie has hit the nail on the head at times, although I feel she equally lets herself down at other times. NoNonny, Church Mouse. Gnostic.

Do I need to list more? Or has that satisfy your patronisingly toned query? Should I add exlamation marks to get my point across?

17 December 2009 at 16:34  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

How rude, I should also have pointed out that on some points I can agree with Crany himself, although we don't see eye to eye on everything I couldn't honestly say that he wasn't clearly a learned person.

17 December 2009 at 16:36  
Blogger I am Stan said...

Yo your Gracieness,very interesting post,and comments.

Saturnalia was celebrated by the ancient Romans apparently,this involved feasting etc and finished on 25 is a well documented fact that christianity adopted this date and tradition from various cultures.

17 December 2009 at 16:43  
Anonymous Joe Charlie said...

Glovner, oh dear, I seen to have hit a nerve, I wasn't being patronising,well the rounds between yourself and Singh and very entertaining...... Not sure which one of you is more stubborn really.

Also, what did you have at Greggs, anything nice?

17 December 2009 at 16:45  
Anonymous Three Kings said...

Glovner failed to mention the one which should be on the top of the list- D.Singh!

17 December 2009 at 16:47  
Blogger I am Stan said...

@TheGlovner16:34 I've found SydneySider to provide some insightful comments on my time here.
Marie has hit the nail on the head at times, although I feel she equally lets herself down at other times. NoNonny, Church Mouse. Gnostic.I am Stan.

Well thank you Glovner for the mention..big up yerself bro.

17 December 2009 at 17:05  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Yes, well the Glovner clearly has his favourites and what about me getting a mention? Some of us are feeling left out.... (sob, sob)

17 December 2009 at 17:12  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't like the LibDems, but his card is by far the best. Wife and children are Catholics, if I remember right.

I bet the Bercows' card contains a round-robin. "John has got a new job, wearing his shiny suit and sitting in a big chair. He sometimes tells other important men to be quiet."

The Blairs' card is revolting, tasteless, egomaniacal and unChristian. Cameron and Brown show themselves entirely politics/power-obsessed; Cameron's is especially tacky. Can you imagine if the CEO of McDonald's sent Christmas cards with the McDonald's logo featured prominently on the front?

17 December 2009 at 17:14  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Say! Glovner!

Merry Christmas, and I hope you have a splendid three weeks!


P.S. I do hope you discover the 'reason for the season' - you miserable atheist!

17 December 2009 at 17:24  
Anonymous ullage said...

I like the Cleggs' jolly family scene. You are an old misery sometimes.

17 December 2009 at 17:50  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Ullage,

Yes, His Grace is a little miserable at the moment, and he couldn't begin to explain why.

He did use Mr Clegg's card to make a partisan point.

On reflection, this was unkind and wrong.

In fact, after pondering them all for the day, Mr Clegg's is actually the most sincere - he may himself be an atheist, but his card is the only one to mention 'Christmas' and it is evidently drawn by one of his children. There is nothing 'PR' about it: it is not glossy, tacky, political, partisan or pretentious.

So His Grace was wrong, and he apologises to Mr Clegg.

17 December 2009 at 18:02  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace,

You addressed 'ullage' as 'Mr'? Her text seems 'feminine'.

17 December 2009 at 18:09  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Those cards suggest one thing about Britain to me, neutered! They're simply awful. You may as well not send any at all. I agree the first two are more corporate Britain and the others are cheesier than my chunk of Gorgonzola in the larder.

Missing you already Mr Glovner! Have a swell time. Better had take your iphone you'll need your fix of real banter with Mr Singh, 3 wks is a long time in God's country. :-)

17 December 2009 at 18:19  
Blogger ZZMike said...

I often wonder why political figures send their constituents Christmas cards (or Beltane cards, or whatever).

Glovner: "I thought Mr Clegg was an atheist?"
And this would matter why?"

Oh, I don't know. It probably has something to do with Christmas once being a major Christian holiday.

I am Stan (among others): "... it is a well documented fact that christianity adopted this date and tradition from various cultures."

OK - what's your point? We could have taken just about any day of the calendar, and found some culture or other that had been using it for their own purposes since time immemorial.

The fact is, Easter and Christmas are Christian Holy Days for 2.1 billion Christians around the world. Not exactly on the same day (as in Orthodox Catholic communions), but the idea is the same.

Our gracious host is too hard on himself. Perfection may only be strived for. The end is the journey.

It would be rather boring to be perfect - as some of our friends might attest.

17 December 2009 at 18:36  
Anonymous Hurt by Glovner said...

Marie 1797- teacher's pet ! (sob) I never get good grades!

17 December 2009 at 18:36  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Hurt by Glovner


17 December 2009 at 18:42  
Blogger I am Stan said...

@ZZMIKE 18:36 OK - what's your point?

My point? well I was not making any specific point at the time I was just pointing out a fact...

But as you ask here some clarification it is amusing to me how some¨christian`s¨ get hot under the collar when they imagine their holy days are under threat ,when in fact the festivities and there meaning are always changing and adapting to modern trends and influences..indeed christianity is one of those adaptees ..

17 December 2009 at 18:53  
Anonymous Hurt by Glovner said...

D.Singh- oh give over! You and him are at each others throats- unless you are really one and the same person! Playing everyone against each other !

17 December 2009 at 18:55  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

A bottle of 1945 Chateau Mouton –Rothschild for his Grace! His Grace’s comments have stirred my heart and have motivated me to say the following:

First: It is a rare gesture these days in when a blogger or politician or anyone will admit that they have reassessed their views and said that they were wrong and apologise and be so magnanimous. This tells us the measure of the man, who is our host on this bog! Integrity, honesty, straightforward! What more could we ask for?

Second: D.Singh alluded to the fact that he believes his Grace will one day be Prime Minister. I would humbly disagree with this view; not because I do not think our host is capable of holding this high rank or that he would not bring justice to Albion, but because from his writings I see the mark of a great teacher. I would, to the modern and young audience call our host the ‘yoda’ of modern conservative /Christian thought and philosophy. I do not know if this is what his Grace does for a profession, but I nonetheless see his Grace as the teacher, advisor and counsellor to as yet unknown person, whom will, like Arthur, arise from the ranks of Britons and led us during our darkest hours. And they are yet to come.

God bless your Grace and whatever it is that troubles him at this hour, please know that Jesus is carrying you every step of the way. This may seem patronising or insincere; it is not meant to come across as such. Indeed before I found the peace of God in my heart, before I accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as my saviour, king and friend, I would have said ‘F’ off you patronising B’stard’[ or words to that effect].

May the Lord comfort you, guide you and keep you.


17 December 2009 at 18:56  
Anonymous ullage said...

Mr (presumably) Singh

How very dare you.

Your Grace

May I in turn apologise for a harsh word which was not meant unkindly. In my habitual lightness of heart I forget that life is not always easy for the sensitive and high-principled. May God bless you and keep you.

17 December 2009 at 19:05  
Anonymous len said...

Mr Glovner,
Apparently evolutionary winterval cards are available showing a series of apes evolving into Father Christmas!!!

17 December 2009 at 19:11  
Anonymous Billy, Evangelical Preacher said...

Let us communicants who believe in Jesus pray for this misguided soul, who calls himself 'the glovner', that Jesus may touch his heart and that he may turn to him and repent of his sins.

17 December 2009 at 19:14  
Blogger ultramontane grumpy old catholic said...

Your Grace

How do you know that one of Mr Clegg's children drew the card? I presumed that it was Clegg himself who was the artist. I presume the he is the guy in the red hat.

Shows promise...

National Gallery next - Tracy eat yer heart out.

But if this is his family, what's a bloody reindeer doing there? Are we taxpayers paying for it?

17 December 2009 at 19:45  
Anonymous Anabaptist said...

Well, since there is not a hint anywhere in the New Testament of any such thing as a 'Christian festival', and since Christians are there urged to be free of new moons, sabbaths, times, seasons and other such ordinances, all of which faded away with the old covenant, I really can't understand why all you professing Christians are making such a fuss about this commercialised descendant of the celebration of the birth of Mithras/Yule/Winter solstice.

So far as I can see, it has nothing whatsoever to do with genuine biblical Christianity. The following of Jesus does not entail or require any such celebration of times and seasons.

I am happy to feast at any time, to enjoy my family and the produce of God's good creation. I am happy to give thanks to the heavenly Father for his good gifts at any and every time of the year.

My friends, we don't need these props, these dead pagan-derived symbols.

So stop moaning about something that doesn't matter, and reserve your concerns for things that do. There are plenty of them.

And by the way, in full festive spirit, and as a well-meant gift to your understandings, may I say to the linguistically challenged among you, that the word you are edging towards is not 'Winterville', but 'Winterval'.

The latter is a clever-ish conflation of the words 'Winter' and 'Interval', indicating a break in the middle of Winter; whereas 'Winterville' would be a town or city named after the season of the year.

Enjoy yourselves.

Thanks for trying so hard, Crannie.

17 December 2009 at 19:55  
Blogger Joanna Bogle said...


Auntie Joanna just wants to send a warm message of thanks to Dr Cranmer for his kind Comment to her blog. She shares, with him, a sense of deep unhappiness at the moment. She has, somehow, a sense of foreboding - these are not happy times for our poor country, and - quite apart from any personal things which may be causing us distress - everything feels gloomy and somehow "all wrong"...

We can only, at this season, remember the words of a prophet long ago, who spoke of a people who walked in darkness who saw a great light...

The Light still shines.


17 December 2009 at 19:57  
Anonymous John Potter said...

Anabaptist= atheist!

17 December 2009 at 19:59  
Anonymous Anabaptist said...

It is tempting to say 'John Potter = Idiot!', but temptation is best resisted, so I won't say it.

Perhaps when he overcomes his apparent tendency to disengage his brain, and instead applies some thought and reason to his comments, he might present some arguments for his unworthy accusation. I await them with interest, but little expectation.

17 December 2009 at 20:06  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Lord Lavendon,

That is unfair. All I saw was His Grace being sent to Parliament. And 'many men will pledge their alleigance to him' meant that men many will vote and follow him.

Take that back Lavendon! Or I shall challenge you to a duel!

17 December 2009 at 20:28  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Oh ullage!

Dost thou not know 'Who dares wins'?

17 December 2009 at 20:30  
Anonymous len said...

I fully appreciate what you are saying.
But surely any time is appropriate to celebrate The Lord Jesus Christ and the Gospel.

The origins of Christmas are pagan but Jesus Christ was not one to shun the company of sinners, darkness is only dispelled by turning on the light.

17 December 2009 at 20:33  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Billy, Evangelical Preacher

Oh no!

Do you not realise that if he got saved I may have to spend eternity as his next door neighbour?

Please remember Jonah of the whale.


17 December 2009 at 20:33  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Hurt by Glovner

Are you nuts?

Me and Glovy the same person?

Listen pal, why don't you give over. Besides you ain't even a marine. So what do you know?

Get lost kid.

17 December 2009 at 20:37  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anabaptist from anonym re celebrating Christmas

I personally don't have a problem in celebrating it, even though some elements were pinched from another religion and Christianised a long time ago. I do have a problem with "Christians" partaking in some non-Biblical religious rituals or festivals. God is a jealous God and in Corinthians it says that partaking in some things can be equivalent to worshipping or serving demons or false Gods. Our God is a jealous God.
I grew up with Christmas and don't associate it with pagan festivals, just like when I sing "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" I don't think of a drunken scene in a pub (the tune was purportedly pinched from a pub song. I also don't have a problem as a Christian going to a pub). Also, our Lord (Jesus) celebrated Hannukah which was not a festival mentioned under the Mosaic Law but was celebrated in the Jewish synagogues when He was on earth.

Some Christians don't celebrate Christmas or go to pubs for good reasons ie their consciences are offended or they are grieved by associations with "bad" things or things which would be bad for them but not necessaily for others.

So, I say Merry Christmas to those who celebrate but try to honour those who cannot celebrate for other good reasons.

Freedom of conscience is precious.

17 December 2009 at 20:52  
Anonymous Anabaptist said...

len, you said:
'But surely any time is appropriate to celebrate The Lord Jesus Christ and the Gospel.'

I think that is more or less what I said. The 19th Century Baptist preacher, Spurgeon, said, 'The old puritans did not believe in keeping Christmas, for good reasons. I take the opposite position: I prefer to celebrate the Saviour's birth at any time, so I would like seven or eight Christmases a year.'

More seriously, the point I was making is that there is no purpose in getting steamed up about pagans celebrating the season in any way they want, since there is nothing particularly Christian about it anyway. And since I see a lot of comments on this topic representing people getting steamed up, I simply wish to point out that it is a waste of steam.

Moreover, as Christians are not only never told in the New Testament to observe times and seasons, but furthermore are actually told to desist from doing so, all these people moaning about 'the Christ being taken out of Christmas' are demonstrating a certain ignorance of the scriptures they claim to follow.

So perhaps you don't quite 'fully appreciate' what I am saying.

But thanks for not being spiteful about it.

17 December 2009 at 20:53  
Anonymous John Potter said...

Anabaptist, I apologise for my insult, I did not properly read what you had said and concur with the Christian Brother Len.

Your Christian Brother, John Potter.

17 December 2009 at 20:55  
Anonymous Billy, Evangelical Preacher said...

D.Singh, tough. If Glovner turned to Christ, that is between him and God. You would do well to re-read the Gospels and their stance on forgiveness. Look at St Paul, once a persecutor of Christians, then their Apostle. God moves in ways in which mortal man cannot understand .

17 December 2009 at 20:58  
Blogger D. Singh said...

But Billy, Evangelical Preacher,

Don't you see, if you pray for that nasty atheist he might end up becoming my brother and then I may have to be that creature's next door neighbour in Heaven.

Jonah did not want to preach to that filthy lot because he realised God was merciful.

Please don't pray for Glovy. Please.

Glovy has given me such a hard time.

17 December 2009 at 21:12  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anabaptist from anonym re 20:53
I think (but check for yourself in the Greek if you so wish) the scripture you referred to said not to scrupulously follow times and seasons (as if ordinances saved people etc.). Some Jewish believers in the New Testament still attended synagogue and therefore presumably took part in festival and Sabbath rituals mandated by the Mosaic Law which were no longer mandated by our Lord for beleivers after His atonement and resurrection.
Also, if we didn't celebrate any times and seasons, then Sunday or Saturday worship in the New Testament would be a sin. And in Romans we are allowed to celebrate one day of the weok or all - it is an issue of freedom before our Lord. We don't force our preference on other believers without bruising or dividing the Body, even though we are permitted srong preferences for ourselves, and God allows and delights in those acts of following Him.

I enjoy celebrating Jewish festivals because they are visual and full of symbalism and remind me of the atonement and resurrection and other things. They draw me closer to our Lord. But some followers of our Lord do not benefit spiritually from them, whether they are Jewish or not ethnically. It is an area of freedom. Paul was against forcing people to be circumcised, yet had ?Timothy circumcised. Why, since it was not a sign of following our Lord after His resurrection?

17 December 2009 at 21:13  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

D.Singh, I will take nothing back. I said that you have ‘inferred’ and not actually said you believe Archbishop Cranmer will be Prime Minister, but in any event the words were meant for someone else and not you. I am not accusing you of lying or anything of the sort.

If I may say so Sir, your challenge to a duel appears to be brought on by some kind of mania or insanity. For a start duelling is reserved for those of rank and for a second is actually illegal. Third if it were not illegal, you would not survive a duel with I. Fourth Christians do not duel one another.

17 December 2009 at 21:15  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...


.....Fifth you have already challenged his Grace to a duel and then decided to take that back.

You must therefore, my friend, learn to control your temper and hone your debating skills to the socialists, atheists and others who disagree with Christianity, conservatism and the British way of life generally.

17 December 2009 at 21:16  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

D. Singh @21:12 from anonym
I am going to pray that you and "Glovy" become best pals in the Lord. It would make me chuckle, though that would be missing the point!

17 December 2009 at 21:17  
Blogger D. Singh said...


17 December 2009 at 21:17  
Blogger D. Singh said...


Do you not know why God does not grant most of our prayers?

Because prayer is powerful and dangerous.

By the way Lavendon, my school taught me how to fence. Sabre or foil?

17 December 2009 at 21:21  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...


You are clearly drunk and I would suggest you stop these manic outbursts. I am thinking that The Glovner and Carl Gardner may have a point- I disagree with them, but they have never challenged me to a duel......

17 December 2009 at 21:25  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Lord Lavendon,

That is because they believe that to die is the end. They are afraid. They cling to that which they have; and not that which they could obtain.

17 December 2009 at 21:28  
Anonymous Brigadier lethbridge Stewart said...

Am I the only one who thinks D.Singh has gone too far this time?The man is mad, mad as a hatter. He is just plain nasty,I am fed up with the way he hijacks these articles for his own purposes. When people disagree, he calls them 'kid' or wants them to 'go back to the guardian'. What utter tripe is this ? The man just cannot debate properly.

17 December 2009 at 21:43  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

D. Singh from anonym
We want everyone to be saved because we can't understand why our lord saved us, given we were so sinful, right? God doesn't save the 'good" - he came for the "unrighteous". Even after we were "saved", we still sin. We are not better than others, even though hopefully God is making us better than we were before he started chaning us. We want others to know our Lord out of love, not out of a false sense of superiority. Also, our battle is a spiritual one, with prayer - its not a crusade with physical weapons. Evil hates unblelievers, we should not, even when provoked. Come on D. Singh, don't forget how the Lord loved you before you startd reading the Bible or going to church. Politics may get dirty, and we all can fail including when provoked, but following our Lord is not a fight or competition against others. I hope you are feeling better - how about keeping the fencing gear for genuine sporting events and talks about duelling for discussions of history? Blessings.

17 December 2009 at 21:53  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

D.Singh, I trust that you will listen to the Anon at 21.53 very carefully, it is sound Godly advise.

17 December 2009 at 22:03  
Anonymous Bag Lady said...

when D. Singh said 'Pah', I wonder who he was addressing that to?

17 December 2009 at 22:32  
Anonymous Hank Poulsen said...

Carl Gardner said : "D. Singh's commenting style is exactly the kind of thing that brings blogs into disrepute. And his/her presence here is, as far as I'm concerned, a real deterrent to visiting. I'm looking for discussion and argument, not snark or insinuation."

Totally agree after reading his posts in this thread.

17 December 2009 at 22:46  
Anonymous Hurt by Glovner said...

D.Singh said " Besides you ain't even a marine. So what do you know?"

And how, prey tell, does Singh know that I was NOT a Marine?

17 December 2009 at 22:50  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

"That is because they believe that to die is the end. They are afraid. They cling to that which they have; and not that which they could obtain."

Oh please, more misguided nonsense. I have no belief in an after life so I am far more likely to spend my time enjoying this one rather thinking I will become immortal on my death.

Carpe Diem for me all the way thanks.

18 December 2009 at 00:06  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

"By the way Lavendon, my school taught me how to fence. Sabre or foil?"

Well they must have taught you the art of fencing at the detriment to any debating tactics.

18 December 2009 at 00:08  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

TheGlovner @00:06 from anonym
You almost mentioned the D. Word. How about Carpe Deum (my latin is rusty - I apologise if my grammar is wrong) as well as Carpe Diem?

18 December 2009 at 00:34  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Thinking about Mr Singh's comments 20:28 on His Grace going to parliament, wouldn't it be great if a peerage could be bestowed upon His Grace. Unlike some already there, he would really add value to the House of Lords.

If not, like Lord Lavendon, I too think he would make an excellent government advisor to the young bucks that will soon occupy number 10, and he should chronicle his blog into lovely books for posterity with some leather bound collectors editions also. His observations written with his wonderful command of the English language are a joy to read. God Bless him.

18 December 2009 at 02:02  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace,

And my fellow posters; that time of year has come and at last the ‘chit’ from the Brass has arrived – ‘shore leave’ for three weeks!

I wish you all a merry Christmas.

God bless.


‘It is hard because so many people cannot be brought to realise that When B is better than C, A may be even better than B. They like thinking in terms of good and bad, not of good, better, and best, or bad, worse and worst. They want to know whether you think patriotism a good thing: if you reply that it is, of course, far better than individual selfishness, but that it is inferior to universal charity and should always give way to universal charity when the two conflict, they think you are being evasive. They ask what you think of duelling. If you reply that it is far better to forgive a man than to fight a duel with him, but that even a duel might be better than a lifelong enmity which expresses itself in secret efforts to "do the man down," they go away complaining that you would not give them a straight answer.’

C. S. Lewis

18 December 2009 at 07:49  
Blogger ultramontane grumpy old catholic said...

Carpe Diem -doesn't that mean 'fish of the day'?

It is Friday after all.

18 December 2009 at 08:49  
Anonymous GTGTWG said...

I think D.Singh uses much
humour:0) Lighten up all!

D.Singh for Prime minister!

Greggs cheese and onion pasties are the best!

Merry Christmas,

Bless this site and all involved
with it.

18 December 2009 at 08:59  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

"You almost mentioned the D. Word. How about Carpe Deum (my latin is rusty - I apologise if my grammar is wrong) as well as Carpe Diem?"

That would mean there was also a fish I lacked belief in too, just seems like to much trouble, I do like a fish and chips from the chippy now and again.

I would feel like a vegan having to go to the trouble of denying the existence of lettuce.

Then again, it would probably have more of an impact on my life and provide the greater chance of a revelation. I could visit a chip shop late one evening, after a night on the tiles, and lo' shining forth from the lit heater through murky glass windows I doth see and image so beautiful that until now I had denied. The devine light felt like it spoke through me as my jaw fell open and I uttered the holy words:

"Fish and chips please mate, stick a pickled onion in there and i'll have a can of Irn Bru to wash the it down with."

18 December 2009 at 09:11  
Anonymous inferno said...

Does this mean, we are not going to have to put up with Singh for three weeks? Yippe!

18 December 2009 at 11:20  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

I doubt it, whether I am here or not will have no bearing on him endlessly quoting something else he read on the back of a box of Armageddon Corn Flakes.

18 December 2009 at 11:42  
Blogger OurSally said...

Anyway, back to the point: Cards with your own photographs are tacky and tasteless, especially if you are not that gorgeous in the first place.

Why shouldn't atheists, agnostics and so on send Christmas cards? We have a nice little Saturnalia/Yule/whatever, we all get some time at home to have fun with the family and eat too much good food. Why not send cards wishing people well? Who cares what the fest is called? Enjoy it!

I wish you all a very happy one, anyway, and it might even snow.

18 December 2009 at 15:03  
Anonymous non mouse said...

My cornflakes don't come with C. S. Lewis. But then, I expect our atheist enemies can afford better cereal than I can!! Mine doesn't come even with claptrap from the euSSR - which Mr. Singh presents for what it is.

I appreciate Mr. Singh's comments on this blog, though I fear some problem is at work. Then again - only atheists never have problems. Perfect lives, perfect logic. ... by their own lights, and probably courtesy of their aggression.

So Mr. Singh - I hope you have a wonderful 3 weeks, whether or not we see you here.

btw - re the strand: I don't know (or want to know) what the Clegg children are called; but I find the foreign names on his card odd, to say the least. Perhaps the recipients honoured by his missive understand something we outsiders wouldn't.

I agree with Your Grace on the Cameron card - how very cold. An implicit admission about what Westminster has done to Britain? Chilling.

18 December 2009 at 15:16  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

I don't believe D.Singh ever said he was going anywhere for three weeks so I imagine you shuld still be able to enjoy everything he tells you.

It's me that's off so you won't have to listen to my evil atheistic nonsense. I'll be too busy sharing my perfect live and perfect logic with my perefect loved ones in the US or A.

So I wish everyone including Singh a happy or merry whatever they want to call it.

18 December 2009 at 18:07  
Anonymous len said...

Mr Glovner
Perfect logic?In the first half of the 20th century, Bertrand Russel and Alfred North Whitehead attempted to compile a comprehensive system of logic and mathematics that would be entirely internally consistent and self-evident. They were miffed by the paradoxes of set theory, and the project was finally put to rest by Kurt Goedel's theorem of incompleteness.

In a nutshell, Goedel demonstrated that no system of logic or mathematics can prove its own axioms. Every logical system relies on a priori acceptance of unprovable first principles.

19 December 2009 at 10:05  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Len, calm your little winter boots, if you read the post before mine you should see I was being facetious/sarcastic.

You should take a moment to read what I say in context rather than just jumping on every word like a dog in headt in an attempt to discredit it.

19 December 2009 at 10:10  
Anonymous len said...

Have a good holiday Mr G.

19 December 2009 at 22:23  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Yes, Mr. G. Hope the US is a wonderful winterland for your vacation.

20 December 2009 at 07:26  
Blogger Bishop Alan Wilson said...

Various egotistical images of rulers stand where the holy should be — the technical Biblical term for such things is "abominations of desolation." Except for Mr Clegg — the first last and the last first...

20 December 2009 at 12:35  

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