Friday, January 22, 2010

Anglicans and Methodists unite to ‘challenge Islamophobia’

A guest post from His Grace’s curate:

Could anyone have predicted 20 years ago that moves towards the institutional convergence of Anglicans and Methodists would result in an alliance to combat specifically 'Islamaphobia'? One wonders what John Wesley and George Whitefield would have made of the following job advert:

Sheffield Methodist District
Challenging Extremism in South Yorkshire
This is a new project, funded by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission, to challenge Islamaphobia, racism and divisive politics.
We wish to recruit: Project Manager - Full time, salary £35,000
To lead the project, develop its work, and build strong and broad partnerships
Communications Officer - 0.6 FTE, salary £27,000 pro rata
To develop consistent key messages and build communications capacity in the community.


The application pack is said to be available from an e-mail address at the Anglican Diocese of Sheffield. The employer is thus the Sheffield Methodist District with the Diocese of Sheffield having placed the advert. So, two Christian denominations are closely involved in the organisation of these two secular-funded roles which are not restricted to professing Christians and are clearly aimed at the wider community.

The questions raised by this for the Church's mission are far from trivial.

What place does challenging 'Islamaphobia' have in the Church's mission? If 'Islamaphobia' is defined as a refusal to show Christian love and hospitality towards Muslims with whom Christians ought to be sharing the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, then it certainly deserves to be challenged.

But that is not the politically-correct definition of 'Islamaphobia'. In fact, the orthodox doctrine of the Church of England would have to be branded 'Islamaphobic' according to PC criteria. Article 18 of the 39 Articles of Religion - Of Obtaining eternal Salvation only by the Name of Christ - pronounces 'accursed' those who claim that people can be saved by the 'Law or Sect' that they profess: 'Holy Scripture doth set out unto us only the Name of Jesus Christ, whereby men must be saved,' it affirms.

Furthermore, this PC-defined form of extremism is to be challenged in the wider non-Christian community who have no interest in Christian evangelism and little commitment to biblical authority. Thus, it would seem that the Church, with funding from the State, is getting involved in preaching PC morality to the community rather than the gospel.

Challenging racism is clearly something the Church must engage in - racism is a barrier to the gospel and is a profoundly unloving attitude, unworthy of Christians. That is why I (His Grace’s curate) personally support the ban on clergy being members of the British National Party: membership of a racist political party intrinsically constitutes conduct unbecoming.

But surely challenging racism where it is found is part of the role of front-line clergy engaged in evangelism in their communities. The cost of the project manager approximates to that of a full-time minister deployed in a parish, and the cost of the communications officer to that of a youth worker. Should the Church be involved in deploying secular-funded central staff dedicated not only to challenging racism but also 'Islamaphobia' as apparently defined by PC criteria and 'divisive politics'?

Surely in a democracy politics is inherently divisive - people are allowed to vote for different parties and debate the issues freely and disagree openly: one is permitted to divide along party lines.

Furthermore, is not 'Christianaphobia' as great if not a greater problem now in British society than ‘Islamaphobia’, and of more immediate concern to Christian organisations such as the Sheffield Methodist District and the Diocese of Sheffield? What about the situation faced by Christians in the public sector suspended or fired from their employment simply for offering to pray with clients or for saying 'God bless'?

What about the situation faced by Christian street preachers accused of hate speech simply for affirming the Bible's teaching?

What about the situation faced by confessing Anglicans who wish to uphold the doctrine of the Church of England?

There is no doubt that an Anglican-Methodist partnership led by John Wesley and George Whitefield would have spent the money on a full-time evangelist - even if that meant losing the grant from the Equalities and Human Rights Commission.

Julian Mann is vicar of the Parish Church of the Ascension, Oughtibridge, South Yorkshire. His weblog is Cranmer's Curate

82 Comments:

Anonymous sean said...

It isn't a phobia when you know they want to ritually murder you and sacrifice you to that Old Devil Moon.

22 January 2010 at 09:29  
Blogger DDIM 'n HOFFI said...

You have opened up a can of worms here. I am going to take a back seat on this one and listen to the riot.

22 January 2010 at 09:29  
Blogger DDIM 'n HOFFI said...

Before I go though, Your weblog does not exist at this moment in time.

LMAO - word verify = waism (honestly)

22 January 2010 at 09:31  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

"Christianaphobia"

Seriously? That sounds just as ridiculous as "Islamaphobia".

22 January 2010 at 09:35  
Blogger DDIM 'n HOFFI said...

Sorry to be like Columbo here, but just one more thing: Is Cranmer's Curate as pathalogically subscribed to the Conservative party as Cranmer or can we expect a more balanced Christian opinion?

22 January 2010 at 09:38  
Anonymous wapping boy said...

Yet more evidence of why the Equalities and Human Rights Commission should be shut down.

If they have a spare £60k to throw at combating "Islamaphobia" (and one wonders what standards of literacy are required of the Communications Officer), then why not spend it on initiatives that promote moderate Islam and combat extremism?

22 January 2010 at 10:11  
Blogger English Pensioner said...

The Equalities and Human Rights Commission, and the Christian Churches, should be spending money to ensure that Christians get equality under this Labour Government.
As a church bell ringer, I'm sure it won't be long before someone declares that they find our bells "offensive"; I'm just surprised that it hasn't happened yet.

22 January 2010 at 10:23  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Yorkshire, dearest most beloved Yorkshire; it is no more.

It has taken the viper to its bosom; the poison in the heart spreads, numbing body and mind in preparation for the final kill.

From ancient Northumbria and Elmet, the very stones cry out the Christian message: All our tribes will perish unless they unite under the One Almighty God.

The very landscape rejects the loud, flowing robes of the foreign aggressors as they stride over hill and moor. Their body language reflects their discomfiture: they know they do not belong here and never will. And yet they force themselves upon the land; their aggression cuts through every town and village, it pushes every indigene off the path.

Their hatred, their racism, surpasses anything ever known to Celt or Viking: who share many cultural roots. Their aggression works like that of William the Bastard - but more slowly, perhaps more painfully. These aliens don't even know who Celts and Vikings are, let alone who William was, the destroyer of most of the Anglo-Saxons.

According to this euro tradition, we must not defend ourselves, we have no rights, we should not even define ourselves. According to the euSSR the Church in Sheffield must obey all alien invaders, including them. And the Church in Sheffield obeys - it betrays itself, its origins, its flock, and its King.

Never mind the -isms they all throw out to intimidate us. Let's use our own language: good straightforward Yorkshire. Let's tell them all to get out, and go to their own homes. This is ours. Let's take it back before our ancestors turn even the stones to blood.

kw: ancests

22 January 2010 at 10:29  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

I agree with his Grace's curate on this one. Good show.

22 January 2010 at 10:35  
Anonymous Jewish Bag Lady said...

"Is Cranmer's Curate as pathalogically subscribed to the Conservative party as Cranmer or can we expect a more balanced Christian opinion?"

Dim & Huff- why don't you actually go and read the blog and come to your own conclusions rather than asking other people for theirs.

Also what is your political party- you just seem to be very negative about all of them, perhaps you could be a bit more positive and think about what you believe, rather than constantly attacking others.

22 January 2010 at 10:38  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Sir,

You are right. John Wesley (1703-1791) would have rejected this money.

‘I went to America to convert the Indians; but oh, who shall convert me?’

Journal (ed. N. Curnock) 24 January 1738

‘I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone for salvation; and assurance was given me that He had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death.’

Journal (ed. N. Curnock) 24 May 1738 (on his conversion)

22 January 2010 at 10:38  
Anonymous Knighthawk said...

We should show compassion and hospitality to all and that includes combating racism. The Church does not have to do this in partnership with unbelievers nor should it. I would advise the Sheffield Methodist District to take heed of St Paul's warning in 2 Corinthians.

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols?

What harmony is there between Christ and Mohammed?
What agreement is there between the Church of God and the political idols of NuLabour?

To take money from a government agency like the Equalities & Human Rights Commission is not a smart move. The payback will require adherence to their values and objectives which are worldly, secular and downright anti-Christian. This NuLab government has undermined the Christian faith like no other. We are taught to love our enemies but that doesn't extend to helping them achieve their objectives.
It is NuLab policies on immigration and multiculturalism that have led to the rise of extremism. They are to blame, so let them sort it out. Don't get involved with them in solving the devil's muddles. He will turn their 'divisive politics' back on you, forcing moral compromise through Equality legislation and strangle your cries of conscientious objection. He will drag you down into interfaith compromise. There is no common ground between Islam & Christianity. You are on the edge of a quicksand.

22 January 2010 at 10:47  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I hope I will not offend Your Grace by saying that, by supporting ‘the ban on clergy being members of the British National Party’ you are a part of the problem. By doing so, like the Church of England, you have moved out of neutral territory and moved into the political establishment’s PC world that seeks to outlaw any cross examination of the benefits, or otherwise, of immigration and, in particular, the rapid growth of an ideology dangerously opposed to our own Christian values and heritage. You cannot now complain when other Christian faith groups seek to outdo the established church in its submission to all things islamic, including the introduction of sharia law.

22 January 2010 at 11:03  
Blogger I am Stan said...

Yo your Grace,

A very interesting post,in my humble opinion the Church should not be sucking up to the government and taking their silver.
What happened to a priest/vicar etc standing at the pulpit and enthusing his/her flock with the christian message of love thy nieghbour and peace to all men....now it seems they all talk the language of politics,wealth and war!

The church IMHO should distance itself from the politicians and start being a religion not a mouthpiece for the state or the powerful.

This is ours. Let's take it back before our ancestors turn even the stones to blood.

@non-mouse Hahahahaha the lament of a Yorkshire bigot!Who no doubt takes great pride in the history of Britsh Emperialism etc.

This country is a nation of immigrants , from the Celts via the Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans and on through the successive waves of immigration of Jews, Dutch, Hugenots, Italians, French, Russians, Germans, Eastern Europeans and people from the Carribean and New Commonwealth and Ex Empire nations.

It is the fears and predjudice`s of some who have no place here, not those they would have cast out.

Britain once had the largest Empire the world had ever seen,built from the barrel of a gun,to this day Britains armed forces are Empire building,

Such hypocrisy to lament immigrants while conquering other lands either by force or stealth.

You reap what you sow...thats somewhere in the bible is it not.

22 January 2010 at 11:06  
Anonymous Ginro said...

Let's not also forget, Wesley's own view of Islam (which seems somewhat more realistic and rather at variance with 'project'):

"Ever since the religion of Islam appeared in the world, the espousers of it…have been as wolves and tigers to all other nations, rending and tearing all that fell into their merciless paws, and grinding them with their iron teeth; that numberless cities are raised from the foundation, and only their name remaining; that many countries, which were once as the garden of God, are now a desolate wilderness; and that so many once numerous and powerful nations are vanished from the earth! Such was, and is at this day, the rage, the fury, the revenge, of these destroyers of human kind."

22 January 2010 at 11:07  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

This really pisses me off.

I have just come back from a meeting where we have been discussing where we can find the money to employ 4 more schools workers. We are inundated with requests from schools for our overtly Christian & missional services. But we have to turn them down because we haven't the capacity. There's no point going to the diocese or Churches coz years of visiting them has proved an exercise in futility as they are all to inward looking. YET they find the financial resources for utterly irrelevant BS posts like this! For the same money I could run children's churches in 20 primary schools, reaching 400 children & their families with the gospel.

The CofE and the Methodists ... their warped priorities and their anti-Israel theology ... ICHABOD.

22 January 2010 at 11:23  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

Actually, this might prove a very useful post after all. Just been to look at the EHRC funding website. They throw money at all sorts of bullshit projects. If I can couch our work as doing nothing but spreading bullshit rather than doing anything worthwhile, I might be able to fleece them for the £100k I need to employ our schools workers. Plundering the Egyptians ... :o)

22 January 2010 at 11:44  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace,

Why do not our priests and vicars defend the faith? Why is it that the Church remains silent when Christians are hounded out of office and brought before the law courts for telling others about Christ? Why do they preach to us sermons about why football is a game of two halves and why we must repent of global warming? Why has not my church (of England) rejected its 1970s’ pro-EU position when it is obvious that the Directives from Satan’s throne (Brussels) provide the legal basis for persecution of Christians in this country? Why doesn’t the ‘Grand Mufti’ of Canterbury speak out in defence of his flock?

Please, can we not have just one sermon that helps us evaluate how to live the Christian life better?

No! For every other issue must be settled by them including the building of the new Jerusalem before they consider their flock’s spiritual and moral growth. They remind us of the bees and the ants whose first priority is the material prosperity, security and welfare of the colony – they are diminished by equating themselves to insects.

But we Judaeo-Christian men are not like that at all. We will not wait for the environment to be secured before we react. We will sing hymns before we engage in battle (battle of Dunbar 3 September 1650 (under Cromwell)); we will make speeches (‘I go to a crown incorruptible’ (Charles I)) and crack jokes upon the scaffold; and as we wait in the condemned cell we will produce mathematical theorems of great beauty (Russian orthodox Christians under Stalin).

By preaching the Good News to men first – we will facilitate in every community the production of brilliant leaders who in turn will lead their own communities out of the ghetto (Martin Luther-king Jr., ‘I have a dream’; Churchill ‘We shall not flag or fail.’) and lead them to victory.

22 January 2010 at 12:02  
Anonymous Jewish Bag Lady said...

@I am Stan. I agree that the country has absorbed a lot of immigrants in the past, but all of the contributed to Britain in some way or other- e.g the Jews fleeing Europe helped to create large banks, which helped to make the City of London. Or the West Indians who came over to work in the NHS. Thus these groups were contributing to the wealth of the nation, not trying to take the welfare benefits given out by the british state nor did any of these immigrant groups take up arms against the very country which gave them the same benefits. It seems to me that this is the problem here and that is what needs to be solved.

22 January 2010 at 12:04  
Blogger Ingenieur said...

It is clear that NuLab are pursuing a scorched earth policy in the few months that remain to them. One of their apparachniks revealed recently that mass immigration was a deliberate policy intended to undermine our existing culture. (NuLabour hates our heritage with a visceral hatred).

But being the tolerant people we are, we might have been able to absorb and integrate even vast numbers of new arrivals to the general benefit of society, provided only that the immigrants had the desire to be integrated as have so many others in our past.

But unlike all others who have joined us recently, it is the avowed policy of the islamists not to be integrated, but to conquer us, enforcing their culture, their clothing, their legal system, their mosques and their (false) god upon us. In doing so they are of course simply obeying the dictates and copying the strategy of their founder, who advanced his cause by stealth and lies when his group was in a minority, and then by violence once they had gained the ascendant.

That is a very effective policy and it can be seen in action today all over the world. In every nation where islam has established a significant presence it advances inexorably towards its final nasty intolerant manifestation.

Unless we resist the advance of islam today, whilst it is still in a relatively peaceable stage we will be forced to confront it in its most violent form.

Ingenieur.

22 January 2010 at 12:32  
Anonymous graham wood said...

Dear Brother Mann. You wrote:

"What about the situation faced by confessing Anglicans who wish to uphold the doctrine of the Church of England?"

I think most posters on this blog understand well your frustration.
What to do about it? May I make three tentative comments?

1. Consider carefully whether you should remain in the C of E, in the light of Paul's words:
"Be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers".... and following verses, especially:
"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, says the Lord" 2 Cor. 6: 14-18.

2. Ask the Bishop of Sheffield to justify the appointment in the light of the specific doctrinal position of the Church you mention, in relation to the priority of the Gospel. I In the light of that ask him what authority he has to proceed with the appointments.

3. Consider that denominationalism is a dead end, and self-defeating for it can never protect its people from error, or worse, from apostacy within its purview.
The homosexual issue within Anglicanism is a case in point.
When a denominational HQ is infected with false teaching every church connected with it is tainted, if not actually involved, with its heresy.
May I strongly suggest you have a look at a fine book that offers a way out of the current church 'morass'?.
Do read 'Reimagining Church' by Frank Viola (Only about £8 via Amazon) It is certainly the best book on the need to reform the church and how to go about it that I have ever seen.
May the Lord give you wisdom in your situation. Prov. 3:5,6

22 January 2010 at 12:39  
Anonymous Stuart said...

Should the Church be involved in deploying secular-funded central staff dedicated not only to challenging racism but also 'Islamaphobia' as apparently defined by PC criteria and 'divisive politics'?

NO.

The Revd. Fr. Edward Tomlinson yesterday decribed the Church of England in these terms:

…..now looking increasingly less like a church and much more like a vaguely spiritual arm of new Labour.

I fear he may have a point.

22 January 2010 at 13:12  
Blogger Silly Kuffar said...

@ Iam Stan

I think your making things up..working for ZaNuLabour, trying to undermine the BRITISH, especially ENGLISH ETHNIC IDENTITY...

READ ON

British Have Changed Little Since Ice Age, Gene Study Says

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0719_050719_britishgene.html

I AM AN ENGLISHMAN...NOT A MONGREL.

22 January 2010 at 13:25  
Blogger Little Black Sambo said...

"This country is a nation of immigrants."
Not true till very recently. It is a slipshod way of asserting that nothing has really changed; it has changed, and drastically, with political encouragement and no understanding of the consequences.

22 January 2010 at 13:38  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

"but to conquer us, enforcing their culture, their clothing, their legal system, their mosques and their (false) god upon us."

-Ingenieur

Ohh the irony.

"I AM AN ENGLISHMAN...NOT A MONGREL."

It's precisely because you are an Englishman that you are a mongrel.

22 January 2010 at 13:47  
Blogger I am Stan said...

Your Grace,

I view myself as christian but with gathering pace I am losing my faith,for a number of reasons including what I see as hypocrisy.

For centuries now Christian nations have been busy beating up one Muslim nation or another.

In the Middle Ages they went as crusaders.

Then they colonized many Muslim countries in the name of Empire (a christian Empire) and tried to destroy their cultures and religion.

During their struggles for independence many Muslims had to suffer terrible violence.

The French killed about a million Muslims in Algeria because they dared to long for independence.

In a way this French war against Islam and Muslims is still continuing today through the support of the military dictatorship in Algeria, against the Muslim party that was set to win elections ,and persecutions in France of Muslim men with beards and Muslim women with hijab which we are begining to see here.

The USA and Britain has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghanis with the approval of a large % of the British people without letting the world see the blood and gore, thus practicing a lesson learned during the Vietnam war.

Serbs have killed hundreds of thousands of Muslims and raped thousands of women in Bosnia and Kosovo.

Although in these lands, a combination of rare circumstances put the West (USA and Western Europe) on the side of the Muslims, this did no good to them because the Western powers did not want to loose any of their own soldiers.

Had the West left the Muslim Bosnians and ethnic Albanians to their fate without putting an arms embargo on them, their suffering would not have been any greater.

I am not excusing terrorism,I am trying to find a deeper understanding of it`s causes, but some seem to see things in a very narrow context,the more devout it seems to me the more eager they seem to tar all with the same brush and see the world as your God bad,my God good and wrap their base predjudice`s up in this blanket of faith

I have not heard men of faith speak well of others and embrace others just for who they find in front of them for a long time ..there always seems to be suspicion and bitterness,

for me religion is less about preparing souls for death but more about power control and wealth!...perhaps it was ever thus.

Thus your grace my faith is all but exhausted..I still pray but I pray in fear not in hope.

22 January 2010 at 13:49  
Blogger Preacher said...

Dear Julian.
I feel that 2Peter 2:1-3. covers the problem rather well, if the hirelings wish to accept 30 pieces of Nulab Silver then that is their decision, although having read the rest of the chapter it's not one that I would choose, this sort of greed has serious consequences, just ask Judas.
We have to face the fact that many will fall away as the time grows closer, we should not be surprised by this or allow our own faith to be shaken, even Peter himself had to go through a time of fear and doubt when he rejected Christ to save himself, let us show grace & pray that these people will see the error of their ways & turn again to the Lord who died for them & be transformed into the dynamic counterparts of the Apostle after the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
His Graces Blog shows that there are many who will & do stand firm & steadfast for the Lord. May He continue to bless & keep us all. Amen.

22 January 2010 at 13:53  
Blogger Silly Kuffar said...

@ TheGlovner

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0719_050719_britishgene.html

I AM AN ENGLISHMAN....NOT A MONGREL

22 January 2010 at 13:57  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ I am Stan (11:06)—This country is a nation of immigrants

Wrong. Christopher Caldwell, in Reflections on the Revolution in Europe, can put you right:

‘Genetic studies of the population of the British Isles show that it has been remarkably stable for millennia. Aside from the invasions of Angles, Saxons, and Jutes that started in the fourth century AD—and which brought, at the very most, 250,000 new settlers to Britain over a period of several centuries—British ‘stock’ has changed very little. Only about 10,000 people arrived with the Norman Conquest. Tens of thousands more Huguenots came after the revocation of the Edict of Nantes in 1685. But, all told, three-quarters of the ancestors of contemporary Britons and Irish were already present in the British Isles 7,500 years ago. DNA from people who arrived after that makes up only 12 per cent of the Irish gene pool. Describing the countries of Britain as nations of immigrants is absurd, unless you are describing processes that began not just before modernity but before civilization.’

22 January 2010 at 14:04  
Blogger I am Stan said...

@Little Black Sambo-"This country is a nation of immigrants."
Not true till very recently. It is a slipshod way of asserting that nothing has really changed; it has changed, and drastically, with political encouragement and no understanding of the consequences.

22 January 2010 13:38



Galatians 6:7: "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap."

22 January 2010 at 14:08  
Blogger Roger Pearse said...

"funded by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission" ... i.e. taxpayers' money "to challenge Islamaphobia, racism and divisive politics"

Erm, isn't this illegal? To use state funds to campaign against one political group or party?

As for "Islamophobia" and "racism", all they mean is "Stop people objecting to our policies of mass immigration". Again, this seems illegal to me.

22 January 2010 at 14:09  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

"I AM AN ENGLISHMAN...NOT A MONGREL."

It's precisely because you are an Englishman that you are a mongrel.

We can keep this up all day if it really makes you feel better.

22 January 2010 at 14:13  
Blogger I am Stan said...

@Jonny Rottenborough

We did not get to todays levels of population and diverse way of living and different colors of skin without immigration.

Their is an absolute belief in some that the presence of too many non-Europeans ie non-whites in Europe is a threat to European values.

Caldwell himself was imbibed the contemporary European uncertainty about its values, of which he is so critical.

There are no such things as "European values", of course.

What has eroded is faith in the idea that it is possible to win peoples of different backgrounds to a common set of secular, humanist, Enlightened values.

And that is the real problem: not immigration, nor Muslim immigration, but the lack of conviction in a progressive, secular, humanist project and the negative impact caused by the power plays of religious groups and political parties.

22 January 2010 at 14:37  
Blogger peachperry said...

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22 January 2010 at 14:43  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Could anyone have predicted 20 years ago that moves towards the institutional convergence of Anglicans and Methodists would result in an alliance to combat specifically 'Islamaphobia'?

Could anyone have predicted 20 years ago that the Churches—the whole useless lot of them—would grovel in the dust at Islam’s feet?

I hate quoting from the rantings of a schizophrenic (also known as the Qur’an) but needs must:

8:39 Make war on them [the unbelievers] until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme.

Mr Mann, when Muslims describe Islam as the Religion of Peace™, when they say it’s as harmless as a fluffy kitten and that they have nothing but love for kafirs, they’re lying. Islamic law names ten things as najis (impure or unclean; the definition is here). The list, which can be found here, includes urine, fæces, animal sweat, and kafirs (non-Muslims). Funny way to show love.

If we don’t stand up to Islam, the days of Christian Britain are numbered. The Churches clearly have no appetite for the battle so thank God for the BNP.

22 January 2010 at 14:43  
Blogger peachperry said...

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22 January 2010 at 14:43  
Blogger peachperry said...

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22 January 2010 at 14:44  
Blogger peachperry said...

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22 January 2010 at 14:45  
Blogger peachperry said...

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22 January 2010 at 14:45  
Blogger peachperry said...

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22 January 2010 at 14:46  
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22 January 2010 at 14:47  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Peaceperry,all well and good, but how are your numerous posts relevant to the discussion of this article? Are you not going a tad off topic?

22 January 2010 at 15:04  
Anonymous jeremy hyatt said...

DDIM 'n HOFFI asks...
'Sorry to be like Columbo here, but just one more thing: Is Cranmer's Curate as pathalogically subscribed to the Conservative party as Cranmer or can we expect a more balanced Christian opinion?'

He's a member of the ludicrously misnamed 'Reform'

*places tip of forefinger against temple and makes rotary movement*

Trust this answers your question. Nice line about Columbo by the way.

I'm not applying for that job btw. The pay's rubbish.

22 January 2010 at 15:09  
Anonymous jeremy hyatt said...

ps - Peachperry - more tobacco with it!!!

wv: oughteds

22 January 2010 at 15:10  
Blogger I am Stan said...

peachperry-thanks..what little faith I had remaining is now eradicated...all bonkers!

22 January 2010 at 15:10  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace,

And here you have it: Marxism, Communism, Fascism, National Socialism, Totalitarianism, Humanism (often confused with humanitarianism) – and all the other ‘isms’ …

‘What has eroded is faith in the idea that it is possible to win peoples of different backgrounds to a common set of secular, humanist, Enlightened values.’

And they call it the ‘Enlightenment’. Tell that to the victims of the 1789 French Revolution; the Russian Revolution (30 million sent to the Gulag) tell that to the victims of the holocaust; tell that to the millions sent to their deaths by Mao; don’t forget Pol Pot; tell that to millions of people across Europe who voted ‘No!’ to the fascist imperial power that is the European Union – loved by the Socialist – because he believes it will stop war. An imperial power, as history shows, increases the risk of war.

‘"Euro-Socialist" MEPs greeted the Bosnian war with satisfaction as the "the first post-nationalist war," a reaction that gives the lie to any residual suggestion that "Europe" was seen by its proponents as being about avoiding war.’ (Bernard Connolly, The Circle of Barbed Wire)

Stupid, 'enlightened', socialists.

22 January 2010 at 15:12  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ I am Stan (14:37)—We did not get to todays levels of population and diverse way of living and different colors of skin without immigration.

I must have missed the referendum when the British people were asked if they wanted their country thrown open to the world. Remind me when it was held, please.

What has eroded is faith in the idea that it is possible to win peoples of different backgrounds to a common set of secular, humanist, Enlightened values.

Faith in that idea has eroded because of people’s experiences when the idea has been put into practice. The Harvard academic, Robert Putnam, conducted an exhaustive study of communities containing ‘peoples of different backgrounds’ in the United States. This article summarizes his findings:

‘It has become increasingly popular to speak of racial and ethnic diversity as a civic strength. From multicultural festivals to pronouncements from political leaders, the message is the same: our differences make us stronger.

‘But a massive new study, based on detailed interviews of nearly 30,000 people across America, has concluded just the opposite. Harvard political scientist Robert Putnam—famous for ‘Bowling Alone’, his 2000 book on declining civic engagement—has found that the greater the diversity in a community, the fewer people vote and the less they volunteer, the less they give to charity and work on community projects. In the most diverse communities, neighbors trust one another about half as much as they do in the most homogenous settings. The study, the largest ever on civic engagement in America, found that virtually all measures of civic health are lower in more diverse settings.

‘Putnam claims the US has experienced a pronounced decline in ‘social capital’, a term he helped popularize. Social capital refers to the social networks—whether friendships or religious congregations or neighborhood associations—that he says are key indicators of civic well-being. When social capital is high, says Putnam, communities are better places to live. Neighborhoods are safer; people are healthier; and more citizens vote.’

We’d all love to think that you could take people of every skin colour and every creed, plump them down in the same community and watch them get on like a house on fire. In practice, though, it doesn’t work—because Man is tribal.

22 January 2010 at 15:17  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Peachperry,

His Grace tolerated your long, tedious rants on two previous posts. Unless you desist, you will be summarily deleted, however relevant your contributions may be.

22 January 2010 at 15:29  
Blogger Ray said...

I suppose if you have to label people, then would it be correct to call Simon de Monfort the Project Manager" of the Albigensian Crusade.
Perhaps the Archbishop of Beziers was the "communications Manager". How many Project and Communications Managers did you require for the Inquisitions, How about the Leaders of the Catholic Church including the Bishop of Rome who chose Fascism as the lesser of 2 evils in Spain Portugal Italy and Germany. Were the catholic priests who assisted the Republicans in the Irish conflicts, projecting or communicating ?
Pot Black Calling

22 January 2010 at 15:43  
Blogger I am Stan said...

@Jonny Rottenborough 15:17-I must have missed the referendum when the British people were asked if they wanted their country thrown open to the world. Remind me when it was held, please.

Jonny-You missed the referendum because there wasnt one,there were elections instead and Labour were voted into office 3 times and as I understand it Robert Putnam is confident we can all get along,it was the politicalisation of ethnic diversity he believed was corrosive not diversity per-se.

Talking of America. The native peoples of the Americas, bear a tragic witness to what Christian nations can do to other nations and with the blessings and assistance of Christian churches.

In this century alone the Western nations have fought two world wars with tens of millions dead and untold misery for the living.

For each victory in these two wars the church bells rang in the victorious countries. The first nation to make a weapon of mass destruction and the only one to use it is a Christian nation.

@Jonny Rottenborough 14:43-If we don’t stand up to Islam, the days of Christian Britain are numbered. The Churches clearly have no appetite for the battle so thank God for the BNP.

The Church has always had an appetite for battle methinks....shame.

22 January 2010 at 15:58  
Blogger ukipwebmaster said...

Christianophobia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JHyQHK3mus

22 January 2010 at 16:50  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace,

Re: Mr Ray 'Pot Black Calling'

‘A representative of the American Humanist Association noted that population levels were much lower during the Inquisition than, say, the period of Stalin’s or Mao’s purges. This was a point I made in my original article. But our humanist friend also noted that the technology of homicide is much more lethal in an era of weapons of mass destruction. Never mind that Stalin and Mao didn’t use any of those weapons. They relied on primitive techniques of murder, such as forced relocation, forced labor, and forced starvation. Besides, the caveats of our humanist colleague hardly change the overall calculus. The best estimates are that between 5,000 and 10,000 were killed in the Spanish Inquisition. That’s compared with 100 million who were killed in the atheist purges of the twentieth century. The 100 million is actually a low figure, since it uses very modest estimates for how many people Stalin and Mao killed, and it leaves out a host of lesser atheist tyrants such as Pol Pot and Enver Hoxha. Even so, using this conservative estimate, a quick calculation reveals that atheist regimes killed ten thousand times more people in the space of a few decades than the Spanish Inquisition managed to kill over a period of more than two centuries.’

From an article by the Catholic writer Mr D. D’Souza

22 January 2010 at 16:56  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Now why don’t you socialist boys either go and play on the Guardian’s website, or urinate in your pants and start whistlin’ Dixie?

22 January 2010 at 17:08  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ I am Stan (15:58)

● Yes, there were elections instead of a referendum. But, at no election since mass immigration began in the late 1940’s has a party manifesto stated ‘We will bring the Third World to Britain’. It has all been done without our approval. It is only in the last few years that we have been able to debate immigration at all; before that, the screams of ‘racist’ defeated every attempt.

● Putnam is a liberal, and the results of his survey depress him—he wanted it to show how well multiculturalism was working—so he puts the best spin on it that he can, hoping that we’ll all live happily ever after.

● A terrible but necessary war (necessary for the defeat of Nazi Germany) was shortened by the use of nuclear weapons.

22 January 2010 at 18:16  
Blogger Ray said...

Dr Singh. The numbers are relative to the numbers of population and the time available to destroy them in the time given. No one doubts the Islamists in Iran and other countries would use nuclear weapons against us in the west, can you doubt that the catholics would have used any and all means available to them to protect their source of income, even using nuclear weapons had they been available

22 January 2010 at 18:27  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Ray 'Pot Black Calling'

Are you thicko?

'They relied on primitive techniques of murder, such as forced relocation, forced labor, and forced starvation.'

22 January 2010 at 18:58  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Ray 'Pot Black Calling',

'The numbers are relative to the numbers of population and the time available to destroy them in the time given.'

Are you an Oik? Are you thick?

'Never mind that Stalin and Mao didn’t use any of those weapons. They relied on primitive techniques of murder, such as forced relocation, forced labor, and forced starvation.'

Nah, mate, you are plain stupid.

22 January 2010 at 19:06  
Blogger D. Singh said...

'Now why don’t you socialist boys either go and play on the Guardian’s website, or urinate in your pants and start whistlin’ Dixie?'

Hey! Christian Socialist, you're scared aren't you kid?

22 January 2010 at 19:44  
Blogger D. Singh said...

What's the matter boys? For the last 100 years: 'you have pulled us down by the hair and kicked us in the face.'

Can't you socialist boys take 'a bit of aggro'?

22 January 2010 at 19:48  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Are you seriously still trying to trot out the Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin evil murdering atheists argument again?

Once more just so you can hopefully get this into your head, the atrocities carried out by these people were done in the name of power, not in the name of disbelief in god.

Can you please stop with the non sequitar argument or if you must persist why don't you point out that as they sported moustaches then facial hair must also make you an evil murderer.

22 January 2010 at 21:44  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Here he goes again. Patronising rant time.

22 January 2010 at 21:45  
Anonymous moustaches said...

What is wrong with executing enemies of the people Mr Glovner?

22 January 2010 at 22:23  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Ask me that when you become an enemy of the people.

22 January 2010 at 23:32  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

@ comment- judeo-christian ... again? It is a contradaction in terms from either side.

I will not say much more because Cranmer will not allow me to tell anything he feels may upset Jews - no matter how true - and is going to remove it.

The truth about the Jews and their extremely racist hate-literature, the Talmud, is not allowed here.

But true justice and real truth are not partial, but inpartial. If you condemn Islam and the Koran so you should also condemn the Talmud and the Jews for teaching to hate and murder Christians. Not true? Just read this: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud1.htm & http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud2.htm

It is clear that most British have totally forgotten their own history!

23 January 2010 at 00:51  
Anonymous St Bruno said...

I suppose they are reaching out to the Islamic world in peace and friendship.
Of course Islam is a religion of peace and friendship, as we all know already so what’s the problem?

The problem is what they are doing to our country and what we are doing to their brothers and sisters in Afghanistan and have and are doing in Iraq. They are fighting us with terror and asymmetric warfare, with the ultimate agenda of conquest and change of our country at the same time as fighting us in these countries. Islamic Brotherhood no more no less. Let USA go it alone with these conflicts under President Obama as they have their own problems with Islam as we and every other country in Europe is experiencing.

The bottom line is to withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq regardless of the consequences because both conflicts are not worth the effort and are not worth more British lives or finances. How many times must history tell us that an urban gorilla war is not winnable? The Christian way is surely to be against war and killing not to placate the enemy with good cheer. I suppose the Christian alliance has only got as far as ‘turn the other cheek’ Wait till they find out what will happen when their weakness is taken onboard by the other and only religion of peace and friendship.

How many times must it be said that Islam is not a race!

23 January 2010 at 00:52  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

The Jewish Holy War Against Goyim! is something all Christians should read. http://radioislam.org/judaism/satank1.htm and on from there.

I think it is NOT politically correct, but it does surprise me when Cranmer removes any comment about Jews. At the same time saying his Blog is about examining religio-political agendas with politico-religious objectives.

Real truth and real Justice are impartial.

23 January 2010 at 01:00  
Anonymous len said...

The problem( the massive problem) with Islam is one of interpretation.Muslims are for the most part peaceful but what does it take for a peaceful Muslim to become a fundamentalist muslim.? This must be the thinking behind the policies of various governments who have a policy of containment and appeasement.
Muslim clerics are afraid of too close an examination of Islam for fear of the real nature of Islam being revealed.An in depth examination will reveal the true nature and the errors of Islam.

To preach the gospel of Jesus Christ( which is what the church should be doing) is to expose the errors of Islam, but to speak the Truth in love is surely the duty of the church?

When the church follows a course of political correctness it might as well close its doors and give up.

23 January 2010 at 09:45  
Blogger Ray said...

Singh
When you resort to abuse your case is lost, I think I started off by trying to agree with you, but obviously went about it in a way that was maybe too subtle for you to understand, that is assuming you wanted to understand. I should also point out that I am not a socialist by any description

23 January 2010 at 10:20  
Blogger Kenpachi said...

A shameful, idiotic development. A curse on all your houses!

23 January 2010 at 10:35  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

@Ien: I quote Muslim clerics are afraid of too close an examination of Islam for fear of the real nature of Islam being revealed.

This is very true: Most muslims do not know the truth about their own religion. For example: They do not know that the Koran had not been written when Mohammed died.

But unless they are in nation with free access to information, they will never know. And when you do not know, you can be made to believe whatever the people in power want you to believe, to get you to act the way they want you to act. This way Islam is the perfect system for dicatators both clerics as well as State.

It is such a tragedy that most muslims do the 'salaat' (this is not prayer in our sense of the word, but merely a confession of the same formula over and over and over again) as parrots because they have no idea what they say because they do not understand Arabic. And the salaat must be done in Arabic.


Our governments could easily use the billions that they spend on arms to tell muslims the truth about their own religion! This is the best solution to end the military conflict and terrorism! Because when muslims find out the truth about islam, they will abandone islam by the millions.

23 January 2010 at 11:43  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

But - hear this: Western governments will actively prevent muslims from finding out the truth about islam. The reason is obvious: The US-economy is for a hughe part based on it's military-industrial complex! They WANT WARS going all the time. They do not care one bit about human suffering, death etc. They only care about profit. Apart from the evil of getting the Western people hooked on drugs, and then set up systems for show like the 'war against drugs' while at the same time ruling and regulating the drug trade itself. These are such crimes against humanity by the USA.

Now the USA is guilty of causing the earthquake in Haiti (http://vigilant.wazzup.nl/2010/01/18/us-quake-test-goes-%E2%80%9Chorribly-wrong%E2%80%9D-leaves-500000-dead-in-haiti/#more-131 ) Afghanistan has hughe mineral resources. - MIND YOU: OIL IS NOT A FOSSIL FUEL as we have been made to believe for obvious criminal reasons of the oil-companies and States They are all such MEGA-criminals! - Their oil-reserves are calculated to be far greater than the oil reserves of Venezuala! It compares to an Olympic swimming pool to a glas of oil in Venezuala! This has several purposes: 1: To test their earthquake weapon - HAARP (do google search on it) 2: To occupy Haiti to rob it of it's resources. 3: In this way to free the way to end oil-delivieries by nations like Iran. Which is their true intention: They want to destroy Iran by earhquakes employing their earthquake weapon! And to compensate the loss of oil from the Arabic nations they want to control the oil of Haiti! Plus it's hughe resources. So the comments from the White House are criminally hypocrite.

There is no way the USA can be punished enough for it's immense amounts and immense size of it's crimes against humanity!

Now with every breath every Christian should pray: "Lord Jesus Christ REVENGE" Christ's martyrs do so before the throne of God day and night! So must we!

23 January 2010 at 11:44  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

In Afghanistan the US-American authorities ordered Navy chaplains to burn the donated Bibles in the Afghan language! This is such a hidious crime against humanity by the USA

The criminal Dutch authorities recently let their Army distribute Korans in Afghanistan! Can you imagine? Not Bibles and the truth about islam, so they may know the truth that can set them free and be saved by Christ, and the efforts of the West to build a good house on a new and sound foundation (Jesus Christ being the SOLID ROCK) instead of on the rotten foundation that Islam is..but then...doctors and pharmacies do not want people to get better - they would loose their business! So they develop sicknesses and drugs that make patients have to buy them for the rest of their existence!How immensely criminal the authorities and corporations are as hand-in glove.

But it shows that the USA and the Netherlands/ West do not want muslims to know the truth about islam Watch the testimonies of ex-muslims: www.youtube.com/muslims4jesus These are so touching and encouraging to all of us!

23 January 2010 at 11:46  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

I'm sorry, i skimmed most of that due to current time constraints, but did you actually just say that the USA caused the earthquake in Haiti with their "earthquake weapon"?

23 January 2010 at 11:52  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

YES! And I gave the link!

23 January 2010 at 12:00  
Anonymous Hugh Oxford said...

Needless to say, nothing about it on the BBC

24 January 2010 at 20:33  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Well I had some spare time to get round to reading a bit on this.

And while at a glance it looks like there may be something in this, there is no lack of articles anyway, it doesn't help the case though that it seems mostly to be coming from Hugo Chavez.

A pinch of salt may be needed methinks.

Word Verification - UNTRIE

Only one letter away, a sign perhaps?

25 January 2010 at 13:51  
Blogger Silly Kuffar said...

What does Russia Today get out of reporting this ?

What does Chavez get ? Kudos?

26 January 2010 at 08:55  
Blogger Silly Kuffar said...

@ TheGlovner

Regarding Russia Today.
This story went out as a 'NEWS STORY'
It wasn't like the end of News At Ten, with Trevor McDonut doing an "And Finally" moment.

26 January 2010 at 09:01  
Anonymous Adrian P said...

Stan is a Subversive, paid or not, he is working for the State, we are at war, does anyone not think oue enemy would do this, wise up, we are at war.

Spin this Stan

26 January 2010 at 15:33  
Anonymous Adrian Peirson said...

Stan is practicing something called critical theory, undermining Western values and civilisation by constantly questioning, inciting self doubt, etc.
It is a recognised technique of the Frankfurt School of Subversion.
He's rather good at it, rather eloquent and knowledgeble, but once you know what these Marxists are doing, their magic becomes powerless.

Critical Theory

Critical Theory, Marxism, The culture of Critique, Frankfurt subversion would make a very useful future article your Grace.

26 January 2010 at 15:51  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

27 January 2010 at 02:49  
Anonymous Tim said...

I think most people have moved beyond the problematic semantics of the term "Islamophobia" and simply use it as short-hand for anti-Muslim prejudice. After all, there is no shortage of crtitical analysis of the religion itself either in popular discourse or academic circles.

No doubt what worries the Sheffield partnership is the rise in the number of physical attacks on Muslims over the past few years: both the acts of arson, assault and murder, and the lesser undercurrent of verbal abuse, spitting and vandalism.

Perhaps they feel moved to respond to call of their faith, both to love their enemies as themselves and to stand up for the despised. Didn't Jesus, in Christian belief, work with leppers?

3 March 2010 at 09:15  

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