Saturday, February 13, 2010

Egypt bans all Christians from travelling to the Holy Land

Cranmer has commented before upon the appalling plight of the Coptic Christians and the persecution they endure. They are being religiously cleansed from their homeland; forced to convert or emigrate, or risk being murdered, with not a lot of compassion from the British Government.

And now the most recent development: all Copts are henceforth banned from journeying to Bethlehem, Nazareth, Capernaum, Jerusalem and anywhere else in the Holy Land:

'In a new step that could raise the ire of Coptic activists and human rights organizations in Egypt, the Administrative Court headed by Adel Farghali, Vice-President of the Council of State, issued a ruling Wednesday to ban all Christians from traveling to visit the holy lands in Israel, including Jerusalem. The court also rejected lawsuits filed by a number of Copts against the Minister of Interior Habib al-Adly, demanding the non-implementation of the decision.

'Traveling to Israel for Egyptians has always been a controversial matter in a country that maintains somewhat warm political ties with the Jewish state, but it is even harder in Egypt when it comes to Christians, as Coptic Pope Shenouda also prohibits traveling to Israel, even for worshiping and pilgrimage to Jerusalem, which is home to many holy places and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and any Christian, especially Orthdox who visits Israel is prohibited from service and mass, as the Pope considers a move towards normalization with Israel. However, Catholics travel regularly to Israel upon the approval of security agencies.

'This time, it may be different and could even effect Catholics and Protestants in the country, as the Court said in its decision that the authorities “work in the interest of the citizen and protect the security of citizens and ensure their safety and have the right to refuse giving permission to any of those who wish to visit a state or a region plagued by violence and murder, as well as falling under the control of the Israeli occupation.”

'The verdict caused mixed reactions within the Coptic Community in Egypt, as a number of Copts considered the ruling “politicized.”

'Mamdouh Nakhla, Director of the al-Kelma Center for Human Rights, said that Jerusalem is a holy city to the Copts, “especially as it is the birthplace of Jesus,” adding that around 5,000 Egyptian Copts make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem annually. He wondered how the court could prevent them from “performing the rituals of their religion.”

'He continued: “is it reasonable to prevent Egyptians from pilgrimage in Saudi Arabia, if ever both countries had political differences?”

'For his part, Naguib Gabriel, a human rights lawyer and Coptic advocate, considered the verdict an endorsement of the general direction of the state and upholding the principle of obedience. “Pope Shenouda asked Copts not to visit Jerusalem until it is back to the Palestinian Sovereignty [and] Coptic masses agree on that verdict,” adding that not committing to the instructions of the Pope which were supported by the court is a departure from the traditions of the Church.'


Blogger Anabaptist said...

Sorry this is so long.

There are at least two issues here: firstly, there is the liberty of citizens to travel. There is nothing new about people being prevented from travelling abroad. The Berlin wall was built not to keep people out, but to keep people in. If the Copts are genuinely Christian, they should expect and accept persecution as part of their lot in this world. And other Christians should sympathise with them, pray for them, and work for their relief from persecution. It is difficult: when I visted Egypt I went to see the large and impressive (and not ancient) Coptic cathedral in Aswan. Ostensibly they have freedom of religion. They are certainly better off then indigenous Christians in other Arabic Islamic states. But these things are all relative.

Secondly, there is no Christian duty to visit the so-called 'holy land'. Whilst I am sure it is nice and interesting to do so, it is far from being a requirement for Christian faith (unlike the Mecca requirement for Muslims).

Indeed, the apostle Paul made clear what the Galatian Christians were to make of the 'holy land':

Galatians 4:22-26 --
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. But one, the son by the slave woman, was born by natural descent, while the other, the son by the free woman, was born through the promise. These things may be treated as an allegory, for these women [Hagar and Sarah] represent two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai bearing children for slavery; this is Hagar. Now Hagar represents Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

We should set no store by geographical locations, which were significant under the old covenant with Israel, but now, for Christians, no longer have such significance and ought to be seen as symbols on a road map after the destination has been reached. Fold up the map and put it away; it is no longer necessary.

This reflects Jesus's answer to the Samaritan woman, who asked him what he thought of the Jewish claim that Jerusalem was the place where God should be worshipped.

John 4:21-25 --
Jesus said to her, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You [Samaritan] people worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews. But a time is coming – and now is here – when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers. God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

So much for geographical locations.

So, unless their desire to visit Jerusalem is for trade or seeing relatives, or suchlike, I don't think they are suffering any loss. And if they wish to visit the 'holy land' for religious reasons, they are sorely misled.

13 February 2010 at 13:20  
Blogger John R said...

Not exactly unexpected behaviour from the "Religion of Peace" is it?

13 February 2010 at 13:41  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

God instituted governments and authorities.

We are told to submit to them. However, we must obey God rather than men.

Why this conflict, Lord? If the authorities do according to your will, all is well.

But more and more, the authorities are the very worst tyrabnts in the land. The very worst abusers, the very worst criminals, the very very worst MAFFIA!

Read Prof. R.J. Rummel's book Death by Government

The very worst crimes against humanity have been done and are being done by governments, especially the US-governments!

Against it's own people! Just look here the video: GULF WAR SYNDROME - Killing Our Own

After the Vietnam War, hundreds of thousands of U.S. veterans suffered toxic reactions, neurological damage, and rare cancers due to exposure to 2,4,5,-D and 2,4,5-T dioxin that was used in the form of the defoliant Agent Orange. Unfortunately, the U.S. military denied the problem and failed to heed any of the lessons of this chemical butchery. Instead, it expanded its harmful legacy to the current generation of soldiers and civilians exposed to new, more deadly chemical toxins in the Persian Gulf.

Also: - list of videos: &

13 February 2010 at 14:17  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

This is an issue I bring to Him in prayer as He gave the authorities the power to do great harm, great injustice to the people God gave them power over, yeah, the authorities God have power to rule over the people FOR GOOD, NOT FOR EVIL, are the very instrument satan employs to do the greatest harm, injustice, promote the greatest lies, impose things on the people of God that are in violation of the very God Who gave them the power to do so - including, by the way, husbands and fathers!

Since God Himself made His people have NO EARTHLY POWER to defend themslevs, HE is the One WHo MUST DEFEND His people.

Jesus Christ said in Matthew 28:18-20 that ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME. Great, Lord, but why do You not employ this power for our good? Why do you just sit on Your throne, doing...what? when Your children are being slaughtered by the devil's children.

I have been asking Him daily, actually I am asking Him continually, what He does with all this power, which He refuses His children access to, to employ for good, fort truth, for justice, for righteousness, when the devil has no problems giving his children power to do evil.

Sure I understand He - hanging at the cross - did not call upon the legions of angels He could have summoned to rescue Him and destroy the whole Roman Empire. He did not because it would have destroyed all He had come for. But what in the world is the wisdom, let alone, the love, in standing idly by, watching His children suffer, never being taken serioeusly only because the Christians do not have powers of State, that the Jews have (Israel), and muslims have, even the Roman Catholic church has (The Vatican State, having Ambassadors in many nations; though this is in violation of the Word of God, where Jesus Christ said the Kingdom of God is not of this world!)

But since He did not give His children earthly power, earthly authority to punish the evildoers and defend ourselves, surely He is obligated to come to the rescue of His people Who call on Him?!

Especially since He has ALL power in heaven and on earth! Where is His wisdom in this? His love?

Have His people only the right to sufer for Him, to be the devil's food? What for? Why?

Why can we not ask/ summon His angels to our rescue, when we 'hang on our cross?' He fulfilled His task, when he said "It is finished!" We do not have to let ourselves be slaughtered do we?

So I want an answer from God on these questions. A real answer. Not what He gave apostle Paul, saying "My grace is sufficient for thee." That will not do.

But who am I?

13 February 2010 at 14:17  
Anonymous Osama bin Laden (pbuh) said...

Christian apes and pigs!

Convert to Islam or we'll rape your babies.

13 February 2010 at 14:35  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

@ Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

If YOU, Lord Jesus Christ, continue to refuse to employ Your power to defend Your children, and if You refuse Your children access to Your power for good, and if Your refuse to instruct Your children how to access Your power, how to employ Your angels/ how to work with Your angels, and continue to call upon You in vain, seeing no true answers to our prayers (95% or more of Your people who call upon You for healing, do NOT get healed...what testimony is that? Did You suffer Your stripes in vain? How can we then expect You to save us from the wrath to come, be reconciled to the Father, and have eterenal life in Your Presence for ever and ever? Why do Your children not receive what they ask, pray, beg Your for? You let more prayers of Your children go unanswered, then answered, and the world is full and sick and tired of why You do not heal, why You do not answer prayer; and that 'NO'is also an answer and such...what kind of Christianity...whatkind of Christ is manifesting in all this? Loving? NAY! Far from loving. Utterly, utterlu, utterly CRUEL!) then how could You expect any faith in You, when You continuously discourage Your children, by not employing Your power and authority to defend Your children, to clean up Your church and to build Your church, and to manifest on earth through Your church according to Your own Word? Why lay the blame on us, Your people? Why not look in Your morror instead?

Why did You, Jesus, compare the Heavenly father with an injust judge?

Luke 18:1-8And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint; Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary. And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me. And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

13 February 2010 at 14:40  
Anonymous Ginro said...

"'Mamdouh Nakhla, Director of the al-Kelma Center for Human Rights, said that Jerusalem is a holy city to the Copts, “especially as it is the birthplace of Jesus,”"

Eh? It wasn't His birthplace the last time I looked, lol.

Is it true that the Copts have been extremely anti-Semitic? I don't know which is why I am asking, as I had read an American Jewish blogger say they were. If they have been then maybe it's a little bit of 'what goes around comes around'.

13 February 2010 at 14:45  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

We could never expect compassion from our national socilaist government.

It is effete - just like the court of that tyrant King Charles I. And when that tyrant was asked to give assistance to French Christians besieged at La Rochelle (1627-28)- what did he do?


13 February 2010 at 15:10  
Blogger srizals said...

Salam Osama, Obama, err, who ever the hell you are, human sacrifice? Have you mistaken Kali with Hitler or something? Stop calling my Christian friends with the likes of yours, next time I won't ask you nicely. Where is the predator’s missile when you need one, Osama is right here for the taking. And I thought he was someone with a brain.

13 February 2010 at 15:44  
Blogger Terry Hamblin said...

Jerusalem the birthplace of Jesus? Oh dear, his sounds like a political rather than a theological appointment.

13 February 2010 at 16:14  
Blogger srizals said...

Then Terry or anyone, where did exactly he was born and where did he go when he arose from the dead? Could you please share this information with us to make it clear for the Coptics?

13 February 2010 at 16:24  
Anonymous len said...

I think you are asking God to do what He has told us( Christians ) to do.
God has placed the same power in us that raised Christ from the dead.
“The same spirit that raised Christ from the dead dwells in you.” (Romans 8:11)

Shortly before Christ was brutally crucified, then resurrected, He declared to His disciples, “I will not leave you comfortless…But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My Name, [it] shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you” (John 14:18, 26).
What does this mean? What is the “Comforter”?
The Greek word for “comforter” is paracletos, meaning “one called in to help or support,” or “an intercessor, consoler.”
Read what Christ promised His disciples as they gathered in Jerusalem, just prior to the Day of Pentecost: “But you shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and you shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth” (Acts 1:8).
Further notice what Christ said: “…when [it], the Spirit of truth, is come, [it] will guide you into all truth…and [it] will show you things to come” (John 16:13).
In Acts 2, Christ’s promise was fulfilled. And on Pentecost A.D. 31, the Holy Spirit—the same Spirit which enabled Jesus to perform miracles—was given to the New Testament Church.
After receiving God’s Spirit, the apostles, and even some deacons, performed great miracles: “…with great POWER gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord…” (4:33).
Notice the example of Stephen, who being “full of faith and POWER, did great wonders and miracles among the people” (6:8). Acts 7:55 records the source of his miracles: “But he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God…”
With the gift of the Holy Spirit, God’s servants were able to face peers, scholars, intellectuals and critics as they preached the gospel “with boldness” (Acts 4:13, 31).
Christ said to His disciples, “But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what you shall speak, neither do you premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak you: for it is not you that speak, but the Holy Spirit” (Mark 13:11). This is a very comforting statement.
Christ knew that, after being killed, He would not be able to teach His disciples in the flesh. So He provided a way for them to continue in their learning process. Once received, the Comforter helped (paracletos) provide the power (dunamis), strength and understanding the disciples needed to preach the gospel.

13 February 2010 at 16:53  
Blogger srizals said...

A part of god was brutally killed, and another part of god rose up his other half and walked the earth after three days, not suffering like his other half, of course. After a series of prophets, he finally came down to this earth by himself and got killed. And then the unfinished business was continued by another prophet I presume. Hmm. paracletos, according to English translation maybe, but there is another side of the coin, Greek to Arabic, Periclytos, would mean the Honoured One, or Muhammad in Arabic. If only we had the original text as a source of reference.

13 February 2010 at 17:10  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr srizals

You are a Moslem mischief maker.

Well let me tell you straight son: if a 'man' can be resurrected then it is pointless for people like Caesar, Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Obama bin Laden to murder.

13 February 2010 at 17:28  
Blogger D. Singh said...

That is why they want to execute the Judaeo-Christian.

13 February 2010 at 17:30  
Blogger srizals said...

Maybe a person that is well-versed with Aramaic could give us a clue. Can't ask Barnabas now, can we, since he was mysteriously killed and I still can't figure out what exactly happened to him.

13 February 2010 at 17:31  
Blogger D. Singh said...

'Obama bin Laden'?


A Freudian slip.

13 February 2010 at 17:33  
Blogger srizals said...

But Mr. D. Singh, if you ask anyone from Judaism, maybe to a few certain extreme point of views only, they would say they had killed Jesus, now, how do you combine Judeo with Christian then?

13 February 2010 at 17:36  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Egypt’s Rubbish People is a documentary about the Coptic Christians, first shown on Channel 4’s Unreported World.

13 February 2010 at 17:40  
Blogger srizals said...

And I don't think you could put them together in a list separated by the humble commas, since he would be just like a boy scout playing with a pen knife, not like a Singh's dagger of course, definitely not with the ranks of slayers and torturers of tens of millions.

13 February 2010 at 17:41  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr srizals

My knowledge of Roman provincial law is a little hazy. perhaps you could assist me.

The Jews could not carry out any executions (prohibited by imperial law),

That leaves: the imperial Roman judicial authority.

13 February 2010 at 17:41  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

13 February 2010 at 17:48  
Blogger srizals said...

Hmm. I'm baffled myself. Why did they claimed that they had killed Jesus Christ when it was the Romans who carried out the execution. I wonder why then after that, they embraced Christianity and spread Roman Catholic Churches accross Europe. Do Christians believed in Prophets of God Mr. D. Singh? If a prophet had to prove his prophethood, how would a mere man does so? Through dreams?

13 February 2010 at 17:53  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Hello Pussycat

It was you father, was it not, who was a member of the SS?

It was we, the Allies, who taught you about freedom, security and liberty.

What you really resent is this: the sound of the hobnailed boots of British and American soldiers supervising you continental fascists for 60 years.

From: Agincourt to Berlin.

13 February 2010 at 17:56  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr srizals

You should know. You've read the the writings of Mohammed.

Was he on lysergic acid when he wrote the Koran?

13 February 2010 at 17:58  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Dutchlionfrans1953,

Please get your own blog.

Bless you.

13 February 2010 at 18:03  
Blogger srizals said...

Hallucination? Can it be the same when Paul heard someone called him ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me,’ I presume? When he was persecuting Christians? A Persecutor cum Saviour? Could you give another anomalies in human histories that such a person exist?

13 February 2010 at 18:07  
Blogger D. Singh said...

'Paul heard someone called him ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me,’'


13 February 2010 at 18:11  
Blogger srizals said...

Sorry, Saint Paul. Err, sorry if I seemed rude to ask, by the way, could you be a Christian D. Singh? I've never met with a Christian Singh before.

13 February 2010 at 18:20  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Who was it that said, '‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me.'

13 February 2010 at 18:24  
Blogger D. Singh said...

And why would this someone say that he was being hunted down like an animal, when it was His people that were being arrested and tortured?

13 February 2010 at 18:26  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

@#srizals: You have a strange idea of prophets. Only Mohammed was challenged to prove his 'prophethood.' He was challenged that he had no miracles, no sign, nothing to show for, which the pople knew had follwed the prophets of Old. He answered by pointing to the Koran. Which was not even written when Mohammed died. And, of course, Allah is NOT God!

And we would not have cared about Mohammed, had he not continuously pointed to the Bible, saying the Koran confirms the Scriptures. That brought the ball in our court! That is why I wrote my book "A Christian Defense Aagainst Accusations of Islam." Which has never been published because most publishers are in it for the money, not to promote the truth.

Until Mohammed came across people who knew the Scriptures, and quickly determined that the Koran does not at all confirm the Scriptures but violates the Scriptures and therefore must be rejected! But then Mohammed invented this slick trick: Not the Koran was wrong, no, the Jews especially had twisted and changed their original Scriptures... Really? Apart from this being absolutely impossible, for whosoever would be found involved in this, would have been put to death, Mohammed had absolutely NO knowledge of the Scriptures (except what he had heard from Christian sects and Jews) He invented this trick only because he would have lost islam alltogether. It can only be explained by the power and working of satan and the lack of influence of the church and the Byzantine Empire being so far away, that Mohammed was not, there and then, been put to death for heresy!

Prophets of God do not seek to prove their prophethood. No true prophet would have chosen to be a prophet of God. Because true prophets of God have one thing in common: REJECTION. Nobody wants to be rejected. But prophets of God are! Even the Son of God, Jesus Christ, suffred rejection. And a whole lot more. Prophets of God are confirmed by God Himself.

Because Mohammed was not confirmed, and not needed: God had revealed His Word already 5 centuries earlier: The Canon had been closed, and because the Koran is in violation with the already revealed Word of God, the Koran and Mohammed therefore must be rejected as false.

This is apart frorm the fact that the Koran itself is full of contradictions. And the law of abrogation shows that the Koran is not of God. God - who is omniscient and knows the end from the beginning - did not need to have any of His Word canceled and replaced by another, better verse, as the Koran is in need of often.

Then how come the Koran still exists? How come islam still exists? Because our stupid, treacherous governments want Islam, because the Mega -bankers want wars as wars are extremley profitable to them, and therefore they want an enemy. That is why they need the muslims, which is an ideal enemy to them. They do not care about their lives, and neither does Allah care about any muslim life. God cares, so much so He sent his only begotten Son that whosoever would believe in Him would not perish but have everlasting life! (John 3:16; John 1:12,13; 2 Cor. 5:17) But satan does not want muslims to know this!

Islam could be finished within one year, if all money the West is now using to build and employ wepaons and people to teach muslims the truth about islam their own clerics and governments deny them. Because Islam is an ideal religion for them to control people and have a good life! That is why they do not want msulims to find out the truth about Islam! Most muslims do not know what they are confessing in their salaat they are obligated to do 5 times/ day, as it is in Arabic: a language most muslims do not understand. What says this of Allah when he accepts muslims doing the salaat acting like parrots, speaking sounds, they have no clue about?

13 February 2010 at 18:26  
Blogger srizals said...

In my understanding, of a layman of course, he said it was Jesus Christ himself talking to him. If I were not mistaken. Do you know about it D. Singh?

13 February 2010 at 18:29  
Blogger D. Singh said...

You ever select the Jewish people again as a target... then I'll come for you again.

13 February 2010 at 18:29  
Blogger srizals said...

Which Christian Sects and Jews told their scriptures to Muhammad? Al Quran is the proof. It is still the same, one version. Same old language. Read on daily basis, by everyone, memorised by hearts and minds. Could you put it in your blog so that I could read it? I mean your unpublished book. Thanks Dutchlionfrans. One question may I ask, why did the Barnabas was considered as a taqiyya and rejected, if not by all Christians?

13 February 2010 at 18:35  
Blogger srizals said...

And I don't think my 10 year old daughter would like it if I say that you said she was merely parroting a conversation with God with no sense of meaning at all. As if Arabic is a language like Aramaic.

13 February 2010 at 18:42  
Blogger D. Singh said...

'Which Christian Sects and Jews told their scriptures to Muhammad?'

It was Mohammed's wife (Christian).

This is why in the Koran Jacob, Moses and Yeshua are mentioned.

It is a great pity that he Anti-Christ will soon emerge from your people.

It is a great pity and I say it with sorrow.

13 February 2010 at 18:43  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

@Cranmer: I have a Blog, as you can see when you click on my handle. But I have not had the time or idea to do much with it so far.

I see you have again removed my remarks that tell the truth about the Jews. If you do not want the truth about the Jews to be known, Cranmer, how can you be a follower of Jesus Christ, Who is the Truth, Who also said of the Jews that rejected and did not believe in Him, they are of their father the devil? He would have left my remarks in His Blog!

Only the truth can make us free. The lies the Jews fill the world with, especially about themselves, do the opposite. God expects a Blog like this one to tell the truth, and not hold back the truth about Jews or about anyone else because it might offend them.

The Word of God condemns a false scale, a false balance, a false measure, and calls it an abomination!

I have given much time to instruct the people here. But I have wondered for some time why I wasted my time to instruct those who are not worthy of it - as aspostel Paul tells his son in the faith, Timothy: And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. (2 Tim.2:2)

I will be asking the Lord for such people. Or I will stop.

Since you do not appreciate my work, Cranmer, I will leave you to your own devices.

May God truelly (start to) bless me.

I also wish you the best, Cranmer, and want you to know I valued and vlaue your Blog and the time and effort you spend on it.

13 February 2010 at 18:49  
Blogger srizals said...

Muhammad's wife? Which one? Do you have this recording of historical events so that I may read it without prejudice? Or a website maybe? Anti Christ? But we love Jesus Christ and patiently await for him. How could we then, be Anti-Christ? Have you ever heard Muslims dared attacking or dehumanizing him, ever? Like what some Christians were and are doing now with Atheists and Pagans to Muhammad?

13 February 2010 at 18:50  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr srizals

You are awaiting your Al Mhadi.

The Jewish people are awaiting the Messiah.

And we Judaeo-Christians are awaiting Yeshua.

Well, yours is about to arrive.

13 February 2010 at 18:59  
Blogger dutchlionfrans1953 said...

@sri: You either are ignorant or behave like it to provoke me.

Either way: Watch the videos in this playlist:

Then you know a lot more about the Koran!

13 February 2010 at 19:02  
Blogger srizals said...

Someone must be very well-versed to have that certain degree of knowledge to pass on to an illiterate person that would have to deal with his people and enemy now would it? Sarah Palin read her palms when she was uttering important facts, how could Muhammad? An illiterate? Could such person, having to constantly consult others, influence the fierce and intellectual Arabs, alliance of the Persians and Rome?

13 February 2010 at 19:05  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ D. Singh—The Peter Hitchens article is here.

@ srizals—In the Qur’an, Allah first tells Muslims to be friendly to Jews and Christians but then he says that Jews and Christians should be killed. When the Archangel Gabriel started reciting the Qur’an, Allah should have decided exactly what he wanted to say. After all, the Qur’an contains the rules to govern Mankind for all time; isn’t it odd that Allah should change his mind?

13 February 2010 at 19:10  
Blogger srizals said...

Come on now, not again, I'm not talking with links and videos now, am I? I'm talking to you. So please use your point of arguments or at least try to address mine before slumber grasp me.

13 February 2010 at 19:10  
Blogger srizals said...

Could you please provide the verses Johnny? If I stopped responding, please don't be upset, I'm fighting with my eyes now, my brain still thinking but my eyes won't comply, please provide me with the verses, so I could double check them. If I failed to put it here tonight, maybe I'll visit your blog, but please enable the comments. Thanks.

13 February 2010 at 19:15  
Blogger ukipwebmaster said...

Persecution of the Christian minorities:

13 February 2010 at 19:25  
Blogger srizals said...

If I give you links of videos prescribing all the hideous brutalities in the net, it would make you dizzy for days and puke occasionally. We talk with words, not links. That's what our neurons are for.

13 February 2010 at 19:28  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ srizals (19:15)—I’ll have to type them out; they’re in my Qur’an. I’ll have them ready for next time. Get some sleep.

13 February 2010 at 19:32  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ srizals (19:15)—I’ll have to type them out; they’re in my Qur’an. I’ll have them ready for next time. Get some sleep.

13 February 2010 at 19:33  
Blogger srizals said...

Thank you Johnny, Cherio.

13 February 2010 at 19:34  
Anonymous len said...

The reason, I called the Holy Spirit 'it'instead of He is because I knew srizals would claim Mohammad is the Holy Spirit.
Islam is totally illogical it is a mixture of pagan folklore and twisted bible stories.
The bible says the Holy Spirit, "which the world does not know and can not see"( was mohammed invisible?, and did no one know him?. Totally illogical!.

I know I shouldn`t encourage him but I have a question for srizals and any muslim,

Bible or Koran?

Which has the authentic record?

‘Why should I believe that someone who lived 600 years after the event and hundreds of miles away from where it happened had the authentic record rather than those who were eye witnesses?’ This was a question I posed to a Muslim who claimed that the Koran not the New Testament is the accurate account of what happened in the life of Jesus. His response was that the Christians (and the Jews) have ‘changed the books’ of the Bible. So I asked him, ‘Did they change the books before Mohammed or after Mohammed?’ He was reluctant to answer this question because either way it raises big problems for Muslims.

13 February 2010 at 19:38  
Blogger srizals said...

Whoa, Deja Vu! I'll address them in my blog len, with your kind permission your grace, type overturning lies n hate, maybe you can find some answers, there. If not, do comment and I'll address them asap. Too sleepy len. Good night.

13 February 2010 at 19:46  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ srizals

An early verse:

2:62 Believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabæans—whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does what is right—shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear or to regret.

A couple of later verses:

8:39 Make war on them [the unbelievers] until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme.

9:29 Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth [Islam] among the people of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] until they pay the Jizya [tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

13 February 2010 at 19:58  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Whose the pretty lady on his grace's picture? I wouldn't mind giving these copts asylum if they were all as good looking as that!

13 February 2010 at 20:29  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

She's not for you Paedophile .

13 February 2010 at 20:31  
Anonymous Conrad Blue said...

Your Grace, getting back to the post,it is bad that a state is seeking to restrict the movements of its citizens. Can you imagine the uproar if the UK stopped muslims from going to Mecca or whatever?

Having said that, it would appear that at least one of the Coptic leaders support this decision? A Pope or something? So how does this translate into evidence of persecution? Or is this Pope appointed by the state and therefore a political lackey?

13 February 2010 at 20:38  
Anonymous Ardeth Bay said...

Anon at 20.31, she looks at least 20 to me.....

13 February 2010 at 20:39  
Anonymous bluedog said...

@ Johnny R 1958, and during the Haj the Muslims walk round the Kabaa, a polished rock that was venerated by the fiercely intellectual Arabian tribes before Mohammed was a born. This promenade is nothing to do with Mohammed, it is simply pagan idolatry. In which case the Haj is an act of apostasy.

Perhaps srizals has a view.

13 February 2010 at 20:51  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

13 February 2010 at 21:15  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ bluedog (20:51)—I hinted in my first post to srizals that the contradictions in the Qur’an seem peculiar for a work of divine origin, and, as you mention, Islam derives from the worship of a moon god. I’m torn, though. On one hand, srizals seems a decent sort and is sincerely attached to his faith. On the other hand, you have people like Ernest Renan describing Islam as ‘the heaviest chain Mankind has ever borne’. I’m definitely on M Renan’s side. If Islam kept to its part of the world, I’d have no problems with it at all. It’s when it begins to flex its muscles in Christendom that I get jumpy.

13 February 2010 at 21:17  
Anonymous Mark Town said...

So Mr. Rottenborough, what do we do with the likes of the Copts and other Christian minorities in the middle east, should we let them all emigrate to the west?

13 February 2010 at 21:22  
Blogger John.D said...

This is "one" of the many things going on in the world that sucks, but at the end of the day what am I supposed to do about it? The world feels like an ant's nest at the moment, with a horse standing on top of it, urinating hot steamy piss down through all the tunnels. You just think "let's hope that doesn't happen too often", but as for actually doing something about it....shucks!

Word verification = seaduck - Somehow that seems to sum up the whole thread.

13 February 2010 at 21:30  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Mark Town (21:22)—Apologies for the delay in replying. My broadband is being upgraded and it’s all over the place at the moment.

● If they come to the West, it’s a triumph for Islam, and its empire spreads yet further.
● If they do come to the West, how much longer will the West be Christian or even post-Christian? The rate at which Islam is growing, it’s only a matter of time before Europe becomes Muslim. Do all Christians then move to America or Russia?
● If they remain in North Africa and the Middle East, they’re persecuted.

My answer, so far as I have one, begins with a quote from Mordechay Lewy, who describes Christianity as a guilt culture, and Islam as a blame culture:

❛In the open or undeclared conflict between the two cultures, the West cannot act freely, by reason of its self-imposed moral constraints. This self-restraint is not honoured by the blame-attributing culture of the East, but is instead taken for weakness.❜

Christendom has to shake off its guilt. If this is going to be a fight to the death between two irreconcilable religions, Christianity must be as assertive as Islam. Otherwise, Islam will eat us for breakfast. We need to keep Islam at bay until its oil wells run dry and its money runs out. Ideally, we would isolate the Muslim world and deny it our technology.

Christians are persecuted by Islam because the West allows it. Get tough with Islam and it will respect you. Treat it politely and it will trample you.

13 February 2010 at 22:56  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Johnny R @ 22.56, I'm long term optimistic about our prospects. It is indeed a clash between West and East that we face and we maybe should to go back to the origins of the the term the West in Ancient Greece.

Taking as a philosophical starting point the idea that Christianity is a Hellenised form of Judaism, or a Judaised form of Hellenism if the former offends, our entire society is based on the independent and competent individual acting on his or her free will. The East in this construct, heirs if you like to the Persian Empire confronted by Ancient Greece, is authoritarian and repressive by nature. Islam follows this cultural tradition.

If it was democracy that so energised the Athenian hoplites that defeated the Persian invaders of Greece we must pray that the same cultural legacy can win the battle against Islam. Our Victorian forefathers had no guilt or inhibition about Christianity, they believed it to be a superior ethos. Somehow we have allowed the guilt of the Fabian socialists and their fear of success to infuse our society. On a results based assessment the Victorians were right. Christian civilisation brings prosperity, and it seems no coincidence the best businessmen in Islamic societies are usually Christians.

Going further east to East Asia, as srizals would know, the economies of the Islamic Malay states such as Malaysia, Indonesia and in part the Phillipines, are dominated by ethnic Chinese, who are often Christians too. The ability of the Chinese, their work ethic and Christian belief are an unstoppable force. As it happens the fastest growing religion in Communist China is Christianity, not Islam. What if the Chinese state were to graft Christianity on to its Confucian base? That would be a power to totally eclipse the rent-seekers of Islam, who toil not, neither do they spin.

I concede that none of this solves the problem of uncontrolled Muslim immigration in Europe, or the higher birth-rate of Muslim women. But it is up to Western electorates to vote in leaders who will stop the Muslim parasites from destroying the West from within before the Muslims become a majority. As you infer, guilt stops the political elites from doing what is necessary to stop the Islamification of Europe.

Democracy is a Western strength that needs to be used on behalf of Christianity before it can be turned against us by Islam. As Recep Erdogan, Islamist PM of Turkey loves to say, 'Democracy? That's just a bus stop on the road to sharia'.

14 February 2010 at 03:26  
Anonymous len said...

I have been in muslim countries and felt the levels of spiritual oppression and the hostility against Christians.It is starting to happen here in the UK (not anywhere like the level in some countries though).I think Christians need to remember that we live in a world were satan holds people in bondage and will do all he can to persecute and harass Christians and intimidate them to keep them silent.

We Christians, need to pray for and support in any way possible our brothers and sisters in Christ.

14 February 2010 at 10:33  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As usual the silence from Rowan Williams on the persecution of fellow Christains is deafening.

14 February 2010 at 10:51  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ bluedog (03:26)—I endorse every word. I have some second-hand experience of Malaysia in that a good friend of mine and his wife are Malaysian. Neither are ethnic Malays and, as a consequence, are second-class citizens. I’ve heard from my friend that all government jobs are first offered to Muslims; they’re only offered to the Chinese and Indians if there is no Muslim interest. The reason given is that the Malays are poor and deserve special treatment. Of course, if they had always applied themselves as diligently as the Chinese and Indians, they wouldn’t be poor.

14 February 2010 at 14:14  
Blogger Oswin said...

Islam has much to answer for! The Copts have been 'copping-it' for centuries. Yet WE allow Islam to encroach upon our own heart-lands...insane, utterly crazy! It will surely all end in tears!

14 February 2010 at 15:46  
Anonymous Mark Town said...

Johnny R, thank you for your reply. And I agree with you .God bless.

14 February 2010 at 18:55  
Blogger srizals said...

Wow, now I'm impressed. But don’t you think it is a little bit contradicting would you say that we, Malay Muslims persecuted the filthy rich Chinese Christians? The poor and helpless majority against the Economic Moguls? Should we adopt your ways now Johnny? By the way, did they come to us like how Muslims or any considered outsiders came to you? Were they brought in by someone? And may I ask in your personal opinion if not merely focusing on the law, what should a thief do to his victims when he decided that he want to be a highly moralised policeman and be an example to all mankind, abandoning all his hideous ways? You seem to know more about my country than myself, I wonder if you have read Hindraf’s letter to her majesty, the queen of England, saying that we’ve been treating them like Bosnians?

14 February 2010 at 23:54  
Blogger srizals said...

Continuity Bluedog, the same thing that started from the beginning, faces turbulences, with interested parties trying to amend things and corrupt it, but it kept its course, surely to the end of it. That is just the nature of the truth. It can’t be changed, it may be tampered with, mixed with lies, but eventually, the truth will prevail.

Ok, contradiction, first the Koran says educates and treats them well, after they tried to kill you and oppress you, can’t stop torturing and humiliating you, with sexual harassments and besiegement, fight them head on. (What Israel is doing now to the Palestinians is the obvious example for us all to see and ponder.)

How do I explain such a thing, well, let me if I may, in layman’s term that is, let say my 4, 6 and 13 year old sons started to mingle themselves with impurities of this life, being curious and not knowing the rules of the good and the bad, the dos and the donts. I can’t simply ground them before explaining things to them now would I?

If they keep on insisting that they have the right to expose themselves to STD, alcohol poisoning and premature death resulting from chemical cocktails to make them feel good and beautiful, what would I do? Let them be? If their godfathers or bad buddies started to harass, abuse and started to threaten me and my family, what the hell would I do? Call the police? Who were the police back then when Muslims were harassed and threatened with extinction? The dreaded Persians?
Have I answered your question?

15 February 2010 at 01:52  
Blogger D. Singh said...

If you enjoy this blog: please donate £5 - to keep it going.

18 February 2010 at 16:49  
Anonymous Term Paper said...

I guess sometimes truth is stranger than fiction...

20 February 2010 at 06:30  

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