Tuesday, February 23, 2010

Richard Dawkins: "Not to know the King James Bible is to be in some small way barbarian"



He then says the Bible 'doesn't have to be tied to religion... It's important that religion shouldn't be allowed to hijack this cultural resource'.

Ignore completely, of course, its fons et origo - millennia of Jewish and Christian revelation and inspiration.

One wonders how Professor Dawkins (who, incidentally, never had the courtesy to respond to His Grace other than with ad hominem insult) might feel about the assertion that evolutionary biology doesn't have to be tied to Atheism. It is, after all, very important that Atheism shouldn't be allowed to hijack science.

76 Comments:

Anonymous Stuart said...

....might feel about the assertion that evolutionary biology doesn't have to be tied to Atheism.

Bravo, excellent observation.

23 February 2010 at 15:23  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

In the beginning, er...

23 February 2010 at 15:31  
Anonymous graham Wood said...

He also might have quoted :
"The fool has said in his heart, there is no God"

But then again, he might not.

23 February 2010 at 15:38  
Blogger English Viking said...

Not to know Dawkins is to be, in some small way, relieved.

23 February 2010 at 15:47  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You don't have to be religious to appreciate literature. Just as you don't have to be Elizabethan to appreciate Shakespeare.

Exactly what is it that you are struggling to understand, Mr Cranny?

It must be very difficult for someone as intelligent as Mr Dawkins, to convey his meaning to God-heads, who can't think outside their restrictive boxes.

23 February 2010 at 16:37  
Anonymous It's faith, stupid said...

Your Grace

Dawkins is playing with fire.

First he says the Bible is a cultural resource. Next he'll be saying that actually it may contain some truths and before you know it he'll be a fully paid up member of the God-squad.

You saw it here first.

23 February 2010 at 17:05  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Most interesting your grace "In the beginning was the word" .

For most of my life I have relied on NIV transaltion , perhaps I have missed somthing by not seeing the King James bible and will now take some time to look at it .
It is interesting that a new church evangelsist I knew always used the King James version.

23 February 2010 at 17:08  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

What the blazes is going on?

Oh LORD no; don't let that filthy Dawkins become a Christian. I mean what if he becomes my next door neighbour in the Celestial City?

No. No I say. It would be like ending the Cold War. When everyone's neighbour was his enemy - why! everyone knew where he stood!

These filthy scientists and philosophers. First it was Hoyle, then Flew; now Dawkins?

Jonah was right. God would have mercy on them.

Please, Your Grace, for 'Mr Synge' to exist there needs be enemies. Now don't go all soppy and left-liberal on me.

23 February 2010 at 17:12  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Glovy: shut yer gob.

23 February 2010 at 17:15  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Evolutionary theory isn't tied to atheism nor is science in general so why would Dawkins be interested in your statement? What are you gibbering about Cranmer?

23 February 2010 at 17:19  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yo my man

Dawks owes an apology to 'is Grace. Anyway how can an ape apologise?

23 February 2010 at 17:22  
Blogger Theresa said...

I bet Dawkins becomes a Catholic.. *groan*

23 February 2010 at 17:56  
Anonymous Tony B said...

R Gledhill interviewed him a while back; he almost sounbded as though he beleived in God : http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2007/05/dawkins_transce.html

23 February 2010 at 18:00  
Anonymous Tony B said...

sorry, on phone and typing with my foot..

23 February 2010 at 18:01  
Anonymous len said...

Atheists should be very careful.God is searching for every little chink in their armour and He has all the time in the world.
Be very careful,guard your mind, watch what you read,don`t question anything too closely, and the worst thing you can think is does God really exist, I mean could it all be true?

23 February 2010 at 18:29  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Those who feel that his Grace is gibbering and allow that Dawkins is simply able to read the King James Bible as a 'cultural resource' forget that by the act of observaation/reading/participation of what ever sought obfuscates the boundaries between being a Godhead and an Athiest.

You cannot read such a book, digest it and mediatate on it BEFORE coming to any conclusion WITHOUT becoming caught up in some way in religious revelation of some sort.

If Dawkins and his helpers are not convinced of that, then perhaps they have come to a conclusion regarding how the resource should be used prior to its reading.

Perhaps by sayinng that the KJB is a cultural resource, Richard dawkins is using it to put under the short leg of a wobbly table.

Read MAX WEBER and WERNER HEISENBERG, please?

23 February 2010 at 18:32  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Your Grace, Dawkins reading the Bible is a start. Will God do the rest?

23 February 2010 at 18:41  
Blogger Gnostic said...

But has he actually read it? Or did he just read the "know"legable bits like most people seem to do at some time in their lives? ;0)

23 February 2010 at 18:46  
Blogger greenalien said...

I've been trying to wrap my head around that comment too, but the fact that it got the rise out of the lot of you made it enjoyable and I think that was probably Dawkin's goal. He's a great troll.

23 February 2010 at 19:04  
Anonymous Tony B said...

BTW, as a Catholic I object. I've no real background in the KJV at all. I'm a barbarian for a completely different set of reasons.

23 February 2010 at 19:08  
Blogger greenalien said...

Actually as soon as I finished writing that post I realized what he meant. He means it's a great piece of literature written by men who had clearly religious agenda in mind, and who clearly designed it as a means of guiding the religious. Dawkins means however, that the King James Bible should be appreciated as the great piece of literature that it is, rather than exclusively as something containing the divine enlightenment, courtesy of our imaginary friend.

That said, it was still written for religious purposes, so I wouldn't exactly call it hijacking. The response of religious community is still entertaining, however.

Oh and before you will get angry and say this is immature, ponder for a moment the blatantly provocative posters of fetuses and whatnot which replaced erudite religio-political discourse on this page for a brief moment.

23 February 2010 at 19:09  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

D.Singh
"Glovy: shut yer gob."

Whatever are you going on about now you vile little man?

Just get back to your bullying ways and display your pride until you feel better.

23 February 2010 at 20:06  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Glovy: shut it!

23 February 2010 at 20:31  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Glovy: this is the beginning of the End for you atheist boys.

You don't get it do? Boy?

We're comin' to take our country back.

We - are winnin' the Culture War.

Hey, fat boy - we are gonna confiscate your Jelly Doughnuts.

23 February 2010 at 20:45  
Blogger grandad said...

"It must be very difficult for someone as intelligent as Mr Dawkins, toc convey his meaning to God-heads, who can't think outside their restrictive boxes"


Quite the opposite.Science, if looked at with a completely open and objective mind, can lead only to one conclusion.Do you think that people like Fred Hoyle and Anthony Flew only realised at the end of their lives what the truth actually was?
NO, the evidence was there before them all their scientific lives, AND THEY KNEW IT.That is why they were so rabid in their expounding of their athiestic beliefs.
Their beliefs told them that there HAD to be scientific support for their philosophy, and the more they looked, the more the evidence pointed the other way.That was why they were so angry.That was why they used bluster and insult, ridicule, just like Mr Dawkins does.Just like global warming scientists do.
They Passionately believe that their philosophical position, their gut instinct is right, to the point of religious fervour.
So when the evidence says the opposite they get angrier and louder, KNOWING, in their heart, that if they just keep on, eventually the scientific evidence will prove them right.Of course it never does.
Add to that they have nailed their professional reputation to the mast,so to speak, on that position, and the rigid "scientific concensus", which gets people cold shouldered and ruins carears if you break ranks-you have a pretty strong incentive to maintain a certain line of thought.
That is why the "deathbed conversions".No career to protect, no professional standing to uphold they can at last admit the truth to themselves-something that they have known all along-and once they have been honest with themselves they "come out" to other people

23 February 2010 at 20:45  
Blogger yasoonafti said...

Mr. Grandad,

You say that Mr. Dawkins uses bluster, insult and riducle, rather that than the typical response from the religious lobby along the lines of "because that's what god says ...", when engaged in an argument they know they can't win.

23 February 2010 at 21:11  
Blogger D. Singh said...

The apes (Darwinists) are losing it man!

Why man, they can't even go into the Bronx and call the kids 'Niggers'.

23 February 2010 at 21:15  
Blogger Species 8472 said...

The Authorised King James Bible is a beautiful source of life and spiritual energy. I have often heard people talk about the inaccuracies of translation but the truth is that no English version can ever convey the whole intended meaning.

The Authorised King James Bible is a song, a poem of immense spiritual fortitude. Scratch the surface and just keep going deeper and I can promise wondrous things. Those who doubt the existence of God are to be pitied - these are the people who we are supposed to turn the other cheek to because it is they who are suffering. Even I, a man who flies from the horizon of doubt and back in a day is in a better place even with all of my sin and contentions.

I have just about every translation there is on my shelf, but the Authorised King James is like a plasma warp core for my soul, even just to smell and flick through the pages. In every interface of death, glory, honour and Love you will find God and Man blended in mystery and spiritual fulfilment. Don't doubt its power, don't doubt its truth and don't doubt the magnitude of the effect it will have on your life line to the universe - it is no small thing.

23 February 2010 at 21:25  
Anonymous Atlas Shrugged said...

Dawkins agenda is clear, he is simply trying to confuse the issue.

He is not an atheist.

He is not even anti-religion.

What he is is a highly religious man simply seeking to replace the old, Old Age religion with the equally as old, New Age or scientific religion.

His type believe they are the new gods. If fact man IS GOD, and people like himself are the New Age's high clergy.

For it is scientists like himself who now want to control the weather as well as the climate. Not just now but for thousands of years to come. They and their infinitely wealthy and influential sponsors wish, or indeed desperately need to preserve their place in society. Which is very high up there, looking at us way way way down here.

Science is the new religion, and man is the new God.

A dangerous ideology if ever there was one.

I believe Dawkins is either being cleverly dishonest or showing his own foolish ignorance.

People like Dawkins in reality blindly believe in many things.

One of the main ones being in their own intellectual superiority over the great majority of what these chaps see as the highly expendable masses.

The truth is that this thinking is in no way NEW. In fact it goes back to the dawn of civilisation itself.

Remember it was people like Dawkins that invented ICBM's, chemical and biological weapons, and gave other more elevated members of our ruling class elite the methods and excuses to us them on defenceless humanity.

Of course the list is far greater. It also includes TNT, machine guns, and ever more IT designed wholly for the repression of the common people.

This planet has always been at war. A war not between nations, left against right, east against west, not even the poor against the not so poor. The never ending war of which I speak, has always been US against THEM.

It is a war perpetually enacted on the vast majority, by the relatively extremely few. A war they know they can not afford to lose, and have no intention of even getting close to doing so, however many lives they destroy in the process.

We are confused, because they have constantly conspired to confuse us

We are poor, because they have constantly conspired to impoverish us.

We are ignorant because they have constantly conspired to refuse to educated us above our given station in life.

We still painfully and pointlessly die in our millions, because they have constantly conspired to murder us.

This is not my opinion, or my own personal conspiracy theory, this is a history lesson.

23 February 2010 at 21:27  
Blogger D. Singh said...

As long as you lock the door, kid. As our LORD commanded us to do.

Read it out, loud and clear.

Now; where are these atheist boys?

23 February 2010 at 21:29  
Blogger Species 8472 said...

I am surprised that His Grace did not provide a link to the 2011 Trust web site.

23 February 2010 at 21:37  
Blogger grandad said...

I find that people who critcise the word of God usually haven't taken the trouble to read it.
Even worse, their knowlege of the bible is usually restricted to out of context "soundbites", chosen by atheists to create a negative image of Christianity.
As for debate, it is difficult to fight someone who is unarmed.The sad fact is that those who beleive in the great god "science" haven't looked into that in any depth either, usually prefering to be spoon fed their opinions and what passes for science by the one eyed demigod in the corner, supplied by the completely unbiased and objective media companies.
They pass off scientific theory as scientific fact, theories, that often don't stand up to the scrutiny of logic or proof.
I have, on occasion, debated science, faith, beleif with friends and it always follows the same course.They always start off confident in their "scientific" knowlege, and when I point out the flaws in their arguments they resort to sarcasm and ridicule, in much the same way as you have.When that fails the final tactic is to shout me down.It is usually at this point that I realise that trying to have a sensible, reasonable debate with a mind that is not only closed, but has all the doors and windows firmly barred and shuttered is a waste of time.
Finally I don't need to refer to the word of God to refute the big bang THEORY (legend), the evolution THEORY (legend) the origin of life THEORY (legend).
None of these theories has any basis in fact.The facts actually point to these theories being wrong, leading to ever more exotic flights of fancy like the ridiculous string theory.
I am up for a debate anytime and I promise not to threaten you with God once.

23 February 2010 at 22:21  
Blogger Species 8472 said...

Grandad

Many Christians will find this an odd statement, but I love reading books written by atheists, I always come out the other side feeling stronger with new understanding. I love listening to Christopher Hitchens, and reading his books. I never feel angry, just pity because they know so much and yet deny even more to themselves and others.

What Christian has never doubted? I know I have, and do still, but I always love the feeling when it comes back. When I first went through the born again stage, and everything seemed so "obvious" and simple, It was not long before the first crash came. The first crash of doubt was the longest, I have to say - it took years before the anger dispersed. Then the new found enthusiasm began to fade again into doubt, and this is the pattern I have come to know. This is what it is like to journey through scripture and be on a pilgrimage.

Eventually, the doubting gets less as you find peace inside of yourself and come to accept that there will always be some new level to drop into which will again reveal its own doubts, but the grace of God will always pull you through back into the light, and once again you set sail full of enthusiasm and spirit, but only to find your self in the mists of doubt once again on your new voyage. This is the pilgrimage of new levels of understanding and learning that takes years and patience to traverse. I cannot think of any single one thing that can be of any more of a fantastic experience.

Do not be humbled and frightended to take the first step because every single step of the journey will reveal new things, new ideas, new and deeper levels of understanding that only the walking into yourself can ever reveal. Somethings are not transferable - the have to be roads travelled or revelations of personal experience. These things can take years, or even seconds, and no two men will journey the same exact roads.

Professor Dawkins is like the unscientific fundamentalist Christian, they have a firm grasp of only half the story, and both are journeying towards each other, towards the truth and the light. May the grace of God find us both together one day rejoicing in Truth and Love.

23 February 2010 at 22:24  
Blogger Bryan said...

Amazing! The Lord even uses Atheists to spread knowledge of His Word.

You have made my day, thanks for sharing.

23 February 2010 at 22:27  
Blogger grandad said...

A comment full of insight Mr Atlas.I heartily agree with almost all you have said.
Perhaps if God didn't exist it might be necessary to (re)invent him.

23 February 2010 at 22:36  
Blogger grandad said...

Amen to that Mr Species.I am NOT saying that there is no truth in science-far from it.I am just saying that some of the conclusions that scientists come to are agenda driven and have the meerest dalliance with the truth.
And you have inspired me, I shall purchase a King James version post haste.

23 February 2010 at 22:52  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Wow, I am speechless.

This thread is slowly slipping into insanity.

Each post reads like the person submitting is foaming at the mouth and screaming at the sky as they type.

With D.Singh of course being the worst of the lot. What are you actually talking about now? I assume it is some sort of hypocritical nonsense like usual, maybe you will explain your point with a completely unrelated quote from some other religious nut though.

Winning the culture war indeed,

Incoherant babbling nonsense.

Oh well, whatever gets you off I suppose.

23 February 2010 at 23:01  
Anonymous Atlas shrugged said...

The facts actually point to these theories being wrong, leading to ever more exotic flights of fancy like the ridiculous string theory.

Quite

Of course it does not mean that string theory is either wholly or even partly wrong, but it surly beats to death anything whatsoever promoted in the Bible and all other religious texts put together.

There is a famous Asian looking scientist that has often appeared on our TV's (sorry I have forgotten his name )That has been one of String Theory's greatest developers and propagandists.

He is also a devout believer in the increasingly more dodgy looking theory of MMGW, and all of the internationalist, poverty inducing policies that he believes must go with it. He is indeed classic New Age, NWO.

No surprise then, that he seems to be the BBC's new Worshipful science Master.

What happened to David Bellamy?

Well he is not dead, the BBC simply dropped him like a stone, when he refused to promote the establishments new CO2=MMGW religion.

Thus in true JFK, David Kelly fashion, leaving those remaining scientist at The BBC not willing to suspend their disbelief in the new religion. What would undoubtedly happen to their employment prospects, or indeed life expectancy, if they did not immediately shut the F up, or see the invisible light.

When I wrote that the establishment continually conspire to murder vast amounts of human beings (see above ) I meant exactly that. No ifs, and no buts. Hard cash in the form of tax free patronage, TALKS as load as it has always done

The CO2=MMGW religion being a prime example of how this type of conspiracy is perpetrated.

I hope I have also already explained WHY it is.

Many of you may hate to death my postings. Please understand I do not state these FACTS and assorted personal opinions for my own amusement. I hope that at least one or two of you read them, and then at least start to think with a degree of increased clarity.

For I fully understand that ignorance is bliss, but knowledge is only for those willing, able and ready to accept it.

23 February 2010 at 23:42  
Anonymous len said...

The human mind however intelligent, however brilliant cannot find God.
Why?
Perhaps because mans original intention was to become as God , to become wise, and this was the way sin entered the world.Knowledge puffs man up fills him with pride.
So God destroyed the wisdom of the wise reversing the process.


Paul, describing that conflict, said, "The word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.... Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" (1 Cor. 1:18, 20). While the first-century philosophers viewed the wisdom of God as foolishness, in truth, God exposed their so-called "wisdom" as foolish. That opposition makes the wisdom of the world and the wisdom of God incompatible-they are mutually exclusive.

24 February 2010 at 00:31  
Anonymous GTGTWG said...

Well...if you're under 40 you must be a barbarian I'm afraid, along with all subsequent generations. Bibles have been confiscated from most schools and hotel rooms, and churches for the most part, are empty. That in mind, where does one go for a King James to help eradicate their barbarian shadow?

24 February 2010 at 02:18  
Anonymous Happyness Stan said...

Perhaps because mans original intention was to become as God , to become wise, and this was the way sin entered the world.Knowledge puffs man up fills him with pride.
So God destroyed the wisdom of the wise reversing the process.

I very much agree.

Knowledge is most surly a curse, and not at all for the faint hearted.

In general it is far better to accept ones position and concentrate on the well being of family and friends. This alone is hard enough, and the only worthwhile, and achievable human activity.

The humble will not inherit the earth, who would want such a worthless piece of real estate anyway? They will, and very usually do inherit genuine happiness, and above all love.

Which really is the whole point of it all. Would you not agree?

24 February 2010 at 03:36  
Anonymous PaganPride said...

As the post was about the ability of an unbeliever to appreciate the beauty of the King James version of the bible - you can add me.

I am not a Christiam, but the beauty of the text of that book still moves me.

I can appreciate the quality of the literature without being in the slightest moved by the underlying messages which I profoundly disapprove of.

As indeed, it appears, can the the very unpleasant Prof Dawkins.

24 February 2010 at 05:15  
OpenID Godlessons said...

I see no reason that atheists have to be oblivious to religion, just as I see no reason that theists have to be oblivious of evolution, or any branch of science. Religious people have no problem accepting that certain things don't fit into reality when they see things like the lack of a geocentric universe or that the earth is spherical, and they look at the bible differently because of it. There is no reason that they shouldn't be able to do that with other branches of science too.

Have all the cognitive dissonance you want to, but denying reality makes people look foolish.

24 February 2010 at 05:22  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

"Knowledge is most surly a curse, and not at all for the faint hearted."

One of the saddest statments I have ever read.

If everyone agreed with this way of thinking you wouldn't even have your bible to preach, we would all still be living in caves having not even mastered fire or the wheel. Indeed some other species may well have evolved to fill the area we currently inhabit.

But thankfully most people don't agree with your way of thinking. And we progressed and made discoveries and our knowledge evolved. We developed complex communication. We devloped reading and writing. For things we couldn't answer with our current level of knowledge centuries ago we devloped a belief in the supernatural because the unknown is what is generally frightening to the average human being. So it makes us feel better to give a reason to things we don't understand.

But we didn't stop their we continued to evolve and grow with our knowledge and slowly the things that we didn't understand that we answered with religious beliefs were answered by scentific theory which is capable of far fuller answers than the statement "god did it". As we made these discoveries they were slowly one by one removed from the list of things that god done.

We now live in an age where one facet of society seeks to hold onto the times when we could happily state that god did it and we can stagnate in eventually learn nothing new.

The other facet of society looks to finally leave this crutch behind and continue to grow their knowledge to understand even greater areas of the wonderful universe that we inhabit.

24 February 2010 at 09:30  
Anonymous martin sewell said...

If Dawkins encourages folk to read the Bible it cannot be a bad thing. Affection may become the prelude to understanding, and understanding the prelude to faith.

24 February 2010 at 09:33  
Anonymous Graham Davis said...

Correct me if I am wrong (and I’m sure you will) but isn’t the most memorable prose contained in the King James bible taken from the earlier version translated by William Tyndale. Tyndale’s literary skills rivals that of Shakespeare and I think this is what Dawkins referred too as being of enormous significance to the English speaking world.

24 February 2010 at 09:43  
Anonymous Graham Davis said...

The comment “evolutionary biology doesn't have to be tied to Atheism” is implausible. As both seek to explain phenomena by the rational examination of evidence they are inseparable. Although there a handful of scientists with religious beliefs they maintain this contradiction by hiding their religious beliefs behind a firewall that is never exposed to the rational enquiry that is necessary for all scientific endeavour.

24 February 2010 at 09:44  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

On a recent Radio interview Dawkins waxed lyrical about a piece of religious music played at a friends funeral service. You can argue that you don't have to believe to enjoy the Messiah, but I reckon the man is backsliding.

24 February 2010 at 10:21  
Anonymous Kiwi said...

"Don't look for truth in any ancient book or in ancient words. If there is a God, you can be sure He put truth in a place where you can easily find it. He did not hide it in some ancient scroll, in a language only a few know.
If there is a God, He would deliver his message to all of us. He would place it somewhere every human all over the world can find it. He would make it equally accessible to all because He is eminently fair and infinitely kind. There is only one such place that is utterly safe and secure, immune from human tampering. There is only one place no thief can reach. That place is the human heart. It is not written there in some ancient language that needs translation. It is written so it does not need any translation. It is written in a language every man, woman and child understands. It is not just placed in human hearts, but in the hearts of intelligent creatures wherever they are found."

24 February 2010 at 10:32  
Anonymous Graham Davis said...

Anonymous
The reason why atheists (like me) often respond to religious music is because of the emotion that inspired it. Whether motivated by religious devotion, temporal love or even grief, that intensity of feeling can be transmitted to the listener regardless of belief. I am sure that you would have no difficulty in responding to prose or poetry written by a an atheist even when his inspiration was entirely earth-bound.

24 February 2010 at 10:42  
Anonymous Tony B said...

Species - as a former atheist also embarking upon such a journey, I can completely endorse your comments.

24 February 2010 at 11:25  
Blogger Preacher said...

Response, love, emotion, inspiration, grief, intensity of feeling? Science has no answer for these things, they are of the soul & spirit, created by God for our our pleasure & as proof of His existence. As an ex unbeliever I can testify that life without God & these gifts is a dry dull monochrome mere existence.

24 February 2010 at 11:27  
Anonymous It's faith, stupid said...

Mr Davis

Welcome back. How was the snow?

Here's a prophesy for you:

The Kingdom of God is like a grain of mustard seed:

"But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it." KJB

24 February 2010 at 12:10  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Preacher:

"Response, love, emotion, inspiration, grief, intensity of feeling? Science has no answer for these things, they are of the soul & spirit,"

But science does have an answer for these things. It is electrical impulses and chemical changes. It is not of the soul & spirit but it is of the mind.

They may not be the answers you are happy with but science does have answers which it presents based on the available emperical evidence to suggest otherwise is a lie.

Where is the evidence to support your statements?

Exactly, once again there isn't one, it is just what you choose to believe, which again is fine, just don't try to pass it off as fact since you can't support it. So all you end up doing is making airy fairy statments that actually have no real meaning at all.

24 February 2010 at 12:43  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Glovy says:

'But science does have an answer for these things. It is electrical impulses and chemical changes. It is not of the soul & spirit but it is of the mind.'

Why didn't we think of that before? I can no longer be accused of directing trenchant criticism at him as, after all, he is a mere cloud of molecules.

24 February 2010 at 13:00  
Anonymous Graham Davis said...

It’s faith stupid

Snow good, my skiing not so good! Thanks you.

Poetry, however beautiful and eloquent, is man made and should not be confused with truth. Truth is that which is verifiable with a reasonable degree of certainty. Truth for many here is what they believe, but we humans are easily deceived and have an almost infinite capacity for believing what we want to believe. So unless that belief can be a tested by some objective criteria how can its “truth” have any validity?

Preacher said “life without God & these gifts is a dry dull monochrome mere existence”. Not so for me; that you cannot find happiness without belief in a supernatural entity is due to your personal psychology not to a universal truth. Dawkins phrase the God delusion may seem insulting but it is the only explanation for belief that is based not on evidence but on a desire to be part of a grand plan that somehow gives meaning to your life.

My life has no meaning, only experience. I am a tiny and temporary part of humanity and will be forgotten by all but a few when I eventually die, so I make the most of this, my only life. And do you know what I am perfectly happy with this arrangement.

24 February 2010 at 13:01  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mr Davis

Then I presume it does not matter to you if you are alive at 3 pm and dead by 3.30.

24 February 2010 at 13:10  
Blogger grandad said...

My dear mr Glovenor,you are making the same mistake as most atheists in thinking that to have faith is to be uneducated, unthinking, unenlightened, whilst those who are educated ,thinking and enlightened can only be atheist, that only THEY can lead mankind into the future,to our ultimate destiny. I think it is called progressiveism.
As Mr Atlas says this is leading to an elite which regard themselves as gods of enlightenment, and the rest of the human race as lab rats, suitable to be experimented on, used and abused, in pursuit of some future utopia. "The end justifies the means" .

The idea that those of us who have faith are some how thick, uninformed, uninquiring are simply not true.
Reading and researching molecular biology, physics, evolution, as well as other related scientific subjects has left me in NO DOUBT about some form of divine creation.
It has also left me in NO DOUBT that scientists routinely lie, obfuscate, exagerate to convince others that, what are in fact philosophical positions, are scientific fact, and as per usual, anyon who dissents is a flat earther, denier, redneck.

24 February 2010 at 13:29  
Blogger greenalien said...

Preacher: Perhaps you should read up on evolutionary psychology. Emotions are a nature's way of directing us towards being successful in evolutionary race.

Animals, after all, exhibit emotions too.

24 February 2010 at 13:35  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Grandad.

Not at all, you are wide of the mark with your observations.

I completely accept that religiously minded people can be educated, thinking, and enlightened. I also accept that the opposite can be true of the atheist.

This is because I feel a man is judged by their actions and not their beliefs.

However I do not accept that spirituality should be the only thing that is awarded a free pass to be accepted as truth.

And because religious beliefs cannot be proved to be truth I therefore do not accept the belief of the religiously minded people that all others should be judged by their unprovable belief.

D.Singh.

Yet another lazy argument about a cloud of molecules. Please grow up or just don't bother replying.

We both know that it doesn't matter what I write, as long as it doesn't sit with your unproven beliefs then you will treat it with scorn and act the fool.

24 February 2010 at 13:53  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

As has been proved by your recent replies on the other thread you challenge me on.

24 February 2010 at 13:57  
Anonymous Graham Davis said...

D Singh said “Then I presume it does not matter to you if you are alive at 3 pm and dead by 3.30.”

Matter to whom?
To my family and friends it of course matters.
To me it matters because I enjoy life and the alternative does not appeal.
To the wider society it does not matter as I am simply one of billions who have lived and died over countless millennia.

Perhaps behind your question is my acceptance of the total finality of death. To somehow live on in some form after death even if possible would be a forlorn “existence”. That is unless you invent for yourself the fantasy of a blissful state that has evaded all who have lived on this earth. There is a paradox about human happiness and that is that we can only experience pleasure after suffering pain (or vice versa). Similarly we would not need a word for cold if we were always warm. So for a continuous blissful state to endure can never be more than fantasy.

Moslems too refer to paradise again as some form of blissful continued “existence” but as their obsession with sex is even more extreme than the catholic one, they expect a harem of virgins as a reward from their supreme being for abiding by his rules. (I wonder what the women get?)

In fact almost every religion has included an afterlife and you can understand why. For most of human history life was so wretched that the hope of something better was a powerful persuader.

Our lives are such that we can accept our own mortality without panic, we must simply make the best of this our only life.

24 February 2010 at 14:04  
Anonymous sydneysider said...

I question Richard Dawkins ability
to reason logically.He says the bible is a cultural resource and religion shouldn't get in the way of it.That is like saying the Magna Carta is a piece of history,
black writing on white paper and human rights shouldn't get in the way of it. The man is a complete fool.For all his talk of literature
it is easily deduced that he is not
well read at all.

24 February 2010 at 14:49  
Anonymous Mad Hatter said...

Is D.Singh mad?

24 February 2010 at 18:20  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All we know is that he wears a helmet and he can't be sectioned under the Mental Health Act 1983.

24 February 2010 at 18:44  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

I really find myself wondering at times.

The answer I usually settle for is, very probably.

24 February 2010 at 18:46  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

...the best lager in the world?

24 February 2010 at 19:11  
Anonymous len said...

There are two types of Wisdom,one which comes from above and one from below.
Earthly wisdom is confined to the five senses.It is blinkered, it has tunnel vision that's the wisdom of the world. It is earthbound. It is limited to the sphere of time and space and the fallenness of a corrupt humanity. Secondly, at best it is reflection of his humanness, his fleshiness, his sensual character. That is, it rises not above his bodily impulses.The wisdom of the world cannot save man, can do nothing to lift man out of the predicament he finds himself in.
..........................


And the wisdom from above,
But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.

How does God save man?


Man’s wisdom begins and ends with himself. If you ask the common man, “How are you saving
yourself?” his answer is outside of himself (education, money, power, social justice). But if we
start with God’s wisdom, we will begin by looking at our own hearts and the cross.
I Corinthians 1:20 - Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of
this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
The cross reduces all of us to nothing. It is a profoundly humiliating experience
.................................

24 February 2010 at 19:16  
Anonymous no nonny said...

"'doesn't have to be tied to religion... It's important that religion shouldn't be allowed to hijack this cultural resource'."

And he doesn't even know it's funny!!

To make it even funnier he sits there looking like some kind of preacher, all holy-like.

For all the world it could be a sort of innocence; except that it is for all the world - and therefore is malevolence.
********
Personally - I'm thrilled to bits to be am a barbarian, i.e. foreign to Greece and Rome; and I am doubly so because of the KJV. Which is to say, I'm not a heathen i.e. 'foreign' 'pagan' or 'gentile' - in Old English terms!

25 February 2010 at 03:53  
Blogger Mark in Spokane said...

KJV? What about the NEB/REB? Or the Jerusalem Bible/New Jerusalem Bible?

25 February 2010 at 06:40  
Blogger Preacher said...

It's nice to be back, among friends. The trouble with all you poor old atheists is that you are afraid to recognise life & beauty without reducing it to your own level, as D. Singh says an aimless bunch of molecules without purpose, reason or direction. The great things of CREATION pass you by, because of fear you have to rationalise everything to the level of a test tube or an instinct, i.e a masterpiece becomes an organization of pigments to create an illusion of life. SAD!

25 February 2010 at 11:15  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

Oh so wrong.

First of all I don't consider the age of 30 to be that old but you may disagree.

I am not afraid to appreciate life and beauty without reducing it to any level. There is no purpose behind our existence that I know of and you may have a belief (which I think is a little arrogant of our position in this huge universe) but you can't prove it so there is no point just accepting it as fact.

I can appreciate the beauty in anything I hold to be beautiful just for the reason that I find it beautiful. Like the universe is beautiful in so many ways. It is the relgious that are afraid as they must find purpose and meaning in everything when there is none to be had. I am happy to appreciate without any answers.

And I wouldn't go as far to call you sad (capitalised as well, shame on you), but you do come across as a tad irrational.

25 February 2010 at 14:24  
Anonymous len said...

I have been on both sides of the fence so to speak,as an atheist and a born- again Christian.
I would say that categorically I would never go back, it is impossible once having discovered the truth about Christ to deny it.
I understand atheists too,their reasoning , their logic is like an impenetrable wall that surrounds them.
It is only a divine revelation of the truth as revealed in Jesus Christ given by the Grace of God that can accomplish this.
I believe anyone who searches honestly, and earnestly for God will find Him.

25 February 2010 at 22:35  
Anonymous Preacher said...

That makes two of us Len, I hope & pray that the rest of them make it. Glovener nice to hear from you again. How's the new mini Glovener progressing? Hope Mrs G is well. kindest regards. Preacher.

27 February 2010 at 10:08  
Anonymous TheGlovner said...

All things going wonderfully well, Mrs G a little tired a lot of the time but according to our baby bible "What to expect when you are expecting" this is all completely normal.

Thank you for asking.

27 February 2010 at 11:29  
Blogger kate efomi said...

Hello,


We thought you might like to know about our latest drama documentary made by the fantastic director, BAFTA and Emmy award-winning director, Norman Stone (Shadowlands, Florence Nightingale).


Made in preparation for the 400th anniversary of the King James Bible, KJB - The Book that Changed the World features John Rhys-Davies (Lord of the Rings, Indiana Jones) who leads us through the intrigue, treachery and gun powder plot, recounting the rise to the throne of King James VI / I and his beloved Bible translation.


You may wish to view our website where you also see a trailer for the film: www.kjbthefilm.com


It is already out on DVD on Amazon in the UK (and it'll be released in the States in April) and we'd love it if you could take a look and let us know what you think - even review it on your Blog, perhaps. Could we please send you a preview DVD of the film?


Very best wishes


Kate Efomi

17 December 2010 at 14:25  

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