Saturday, April 10, 2010

Party leaders make their pitch for the Christian vote



Cranmer has been sent the following observation relating to this:

'Brown's style was better than normal - very emphatic - but he made it very political, not walking by on the financial crisis etc. Cameron mentioned prayers in parliament and spoke about Wilberforce etc. Clegg spoke about Christians purely in terms of the issues they are concerned about.'

And there, in a nutshell, is heart of each man.

42 Comments:

Anonymous Stewart Cowan said...

I'll repeat what Subrosa wrote on my blog:

Isn’t it pathetic that our politicians now have to include the recognised religion of the land as one of their policies?

It shows just how far we’ve fallen Stewart and not only that, it shows how others have grown.

He who shouts loudest and all that…

10 April 2010 at 14:22  
Anonymous Tony B said...

It's Christians who shout loudest, Stewart.

>And there, in a nutshell, is heart of each man.

Or of each man's speech writer.

10 April 2010 at 14:24  
Anonymous Stewart Cowan said...

Where do you live, Tony, rural Texas? I live in the UK where Christians, patriots, etc., are supposed to keep quiet and put up with all the Marxist crud that's infesting our society.

I think we're starting to get the hang of fighting back now, though, and not before time.

Stop and think where the civilised values you enjoy came from. Was it courtesy of Stonewall or the Fabian Society?

10 April 2010 at 14:50  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Gordon Brown "that each of us are our brothers and sisters keeper " so why did he allow the half of the UK banking sector to go bust.

Blessed are the hypothcators and triangulators for they shall make video clips that neither support or offend .

Archbishop Sentemu knows a lot about oppresion and not having a vote when he fled Idi Amins opression in Ugnada .South Africa seems to be drinking deep from the cup of marxism .

I think Gordon was using a bit of Physcological trickery in his words , Cameron was clean and at least had an idea of a working order , but I cannot assume that it ever enters Mr Cleggs noodle that Christianity mat be somehow a basic foundation for civic society and not the other way round .

Gordon might just have well have made the same speech around a famous 5 book for his sincerity.

It must be pretty obvious to the many christians that read your graces Blogg what a fightfull mess they have created ,in the grand cheese paring operation .When the worthless platitudes run out I dont think I like the look of what will come next !

10 April 2010 at 15:24  
Anonymous Tony B said...

>I live in the UK where Christians, patriots, etc., are supposed to keep quiet

But actually don't. I don't recognise any 'Marxist crud' - it appears to exist only in hysterical rantings.

10 April 2010 at 15:40  
Anonymous Stewart Cowan said...

Tony,

"Hysterical rantings," my bottom. What we coolly and calmly observe taking place is total control via destruction of the family; producing dysfunction in children; propagandizing via the media; dividing the population into cultural ghettos to hate each other, and much more.

10 April 2010 at 16:04  
Anonymous no nonny said...

Yes, Stewart Cowan. Crud it is.

Furthermore, the marxists who set about me take pride of their persecution of Christians, and anyone else they consider to be weak and vulnerable. They glory in their affiliation to AntiChrist.

10 April 2010 at 16:15  
Anonymous Tony B said...

I'd agree with some of that Stewart, but this isn't a Marxist programme, it's a Conservative/ Capitalist one.

10 April 2010 at 16:26  
Anonymous Truthseeker said...

Mr Cowan, do you not think you are exagerating slightly? What are these cultual ghettos, you talk of?

10 April 2010 at 17:08  
Anonymous Terry said...

Cranmer, comments please on Mr Cameron (see ConHome):

"I believe heart and soul in equality: the whole idea of prejudice towards people on the basis of their sexuality is quite wrong and that’s why I back civil partnerships, why I told the Tory conference that commitment through marriage was equally valid whether between a man and a woman, a man and a man or a woman and woman – and it’s why a Conservative government will put new rules in place to tackle homophobia and support gay couples. Despite this, I am aware that there will remain some doubters. But have no fear: the Party has changed, the changes we have made are supported by those serving in my team and those changes are lasting. So far as I am concerned, it is one of the touchstone issues that define the modern Conservative Party."

10 April 2010 at 17:22  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Tony B - I'm beginning to wonder at the origin of your apparent problem regarding Christians, 'nominal' or otherwise? Don't you have something better, more fulfilling to do? It can't be terribly satisfying, forever snapping at heels, like some fractious terrier; surely?

10 April 2010 at 17:45  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Stewart Cowan, no nonny and not a machine:

Outstanding!

It is exceptionally clear that the Judaeo-Christians are hunted down in this country: that's why the politicians now seek a policy on this country's national faith.

A policy!

Pah!

They think they can manage the Lord our God through policy?

Are they stupid or what?

As for the EU: secession! Secession! SECESSION NOW!

10 April 2010 at 17:46  
Anonymous Tony B said...

Oswin, that's quite a judgement to make on the basis of a few comments on a silly blog, isn't it? Don't you have anything more fulfilling to do than post here?

If you're genuinely curious I'd be happy to enlighten you; however I feel your comment was intended as a put down, yes?

10 April 2010 at 18:11  
Anonymous Tony B said...

>It is exceptionally clear that the Judaeo-Christians are hunted down in this country.

and when they've been "hunted down", what exactly is happening to them?

10 April 2010 at 18:12  
Blogger Gnostic said...

D. Singh said:

"As for the EU: secession! Secession! SECESSION NOW!"

I would be tempted to ditch my agnosticism and pray for that...

10 April 2010 at 18:16  
Anonymous Stewart Cowan said...

Terry,

I've just helped shut down that debate on ConHome by telling the truth. Some of my comments were removed simply for stating biological and historical facts.

Be warned: the Tories are part of the problem.

Tim Montomerie writes:

Very disappointing thread. I'm closing it down as strangers are using this thread to, I believe, hurt the Conservative Party.

He needs to see how much Cameron has hurt his party.

10 April 2010 at 18:18  
Anonymous Stewart Cowan said...

I tried to submit this to ConHome before the thread was closed:

This debate should have happened years ago. We have had 13 years of New Labour's social engineering and Cameron wants to carry on with it.

If you don't talk about this, the Tories are dead, because they will be no different to New labour and real conservatives will go to various smaller parties and socialism will reign forever more.

10 April 2010 at 18:20  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Stuart Cowan,

His Grace has been following that thread and is a little disappointed it has been closed down.

He may turn to the matter tomorrow.

10 April 2010 at 18:21  
Anonymous Stewart Cowan said...

Your Grace,

I am also disappointed. On the plus side, I can now have my dinner!

Seriously, though, some of them are too far gone to see I was trying to help.

10 April 2010 at 18:28  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Tony B - you are perhaps too sensitive, yes? My comment was was both question and 'put-down' - but feel free to enlighten my curiosity; I'm a reasonable bloke.

10 April 2010 at 18:29  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Tony B at 6.12 pm

The same thing that happens to all quarry.

But this time the hunted will turn upon the pursuer.

10 April 2010 at 21:56  
Blogger David Wheeler said...

As a matter of fact the last form of government, to which the Good Lord agreed,
was the appointment of the king by His prophet.

"Be sure to appoint over you the king the LORD your God chooses."
Deuteronomy 17:15.

Democracy is not actually of God.

"They set up kings without my consent; they choose princes without my approval."
Hosea 8:4

'Christian' politicians try to attract God's vote together with everyone else's.
Political Christians only try to attract God's vote.
There is a world of difference between the two.

David Wheeler.

10 April 2010 at 22:26  
Anonymous Atlas shrugged said...

A cut and past from a lady named Bella

But Jesus was not a social worker. Jesus was, according to Christians, the Son of God, and according to most Christians, true God from true God, of one being with the Father. I would expect the Director of the Christian Socialist Movement to be at least as well versed in the theological tenets of Christianity as any Catholic child who goes to Mass regularly enough to have learned the Nicene Creed. Why is this relevant? Because Jesus’s teachings, whatever they may suggest to us about the proper ordering of human interaction, were ultimately eschatological: that is, concerned with the final outcomes of death, judgement, and the destiny of the human soul. His advice is to individuals: how to purify the soul in anticipation of meeting God. Actions, such as caring for the poor, working for one’s sustenance, and treating others as equals, are merely the outward manifestation of a genuinely held personal belief that the most sinless soul is the one that wishes only good, wishes no harm, and accepts God’s love as a gift given in spite of our imperfections, not because of our good works.

Good actions that are driven by the desire to perfect an earthly society, rather than the individual soul, are the hallmark of the non-Christian. I am not saying this is a bad thing; far from it, actually. But advocating good works for the sake of perfecting society is not a religious attitude, and Christianity is a religion, not a charity club. And the desire to perfect the soul before God is what differentiates a Christian from a nice person – and we all know the world is full of nice people who are not Christians.

So this characterisation of Jesus and Christianity as being focused on improving society actually strips both of their essentially religious nature. Doing good works is wonderful, because it makes life on earth liveable; but the distinguishing feature of Christianity is that of the perfection of the soul in preparation for death on earth; and each of us dies alone, and will face judgement alone in front of God, with Christ co-substantial and co-eternal at His right hand.

-------

I thought that was rather well put, and worth passing on.

May also say that like Mr Devil's Kitchen I personally believe that if Jesus was anything at all, he was a Libertarian.

Jesus was concerned with the individual human soul not collective ones. We are born alone, die alone, and are judged alone.

As such it is our individual eternal consciousness that is being judged ready for salvation or not. Not our much forsaken material world or the rest of humanity that we could not possibly take any major or even minor personal responsibility for.

I am very sorry your Grace.

I am afraid you will have to save your own soul, all by yourself. I hope you will do a better job at doing so then you did last time. After all you would not want to come back here again, now would you?

I mean Labour might be in power by then, or worst still, The Lib/Dems. If saving anything were possible, or even legal by then, saving ones own soul, certainly won't be one of them.

10 April 2010 at 22:59  
Anonymous Atlas shrugged said...

Cameron mentioned prayers in parliament and spoke about Wilberforce etc.

Which connects quite nicely with my above post.

For a slave by definition has little choices in his life by which to prove his worth by judgement day. A slave must therefore repeat the nasty experience possibly forever.

Prayer is to essentially humble oneself to a higher entity that you can not ever possibly obtain the imagination to even begin to understand.

To genuinely believe one has found the true light of God, is to conclusively prove that you don't have the slightest clue where it is, and are also as infinitely far away from it as you can possibly be.

10 April 2010 at 23:21  
Anonymous Terry said...

Stewart, completely sympathise with you. It's a shame that Tim M's heart is in the right place I think as a Christian but unhappily there is no middle ground and he is ending up defending the indefensible. Something for which he personally will have to answer to God, just as we all will for our own lvies...

10 April 2010 at 23:55  
Blogger Margaret & George said...

Is it enough to speak of Christianity. Is Christianity pure enough or is it, in general, tainted and misleading. If one reads Martin Luther's missive of 1520 to the then Pope Leo, one sees the Roman church corrupted and controlled by Satan. Has it changed in nearly 500 years (not if you believe the choirboys)? Are the non-conformists any more than atheists in top-hats?
Religion means a million things to a million people and politicians would better concentrate on the economy. It is the economy. stupid!

11 April 2010 at 00:03  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Might give your grace amusment Prof Dawkins is to attempt to arrest the pope when he visits the UK and to teach evolution to to Islam. I thought you said he had mellowed in his old age !

11 April 2010 at 01:03  
Blogger Bryan said...

Tony B said...
"I'd agree with some of that Stewart, but this isn't a Marxist programme, it's a Conservative/ Capitalist one."

It is neither, or rather both. But the true end is Statist; overpowering government control of all facets of life.

But this Statism is the ultimate end of all civilizations wherein its citizens give up their personal responsibilities for the promised (but never fully realized) ease offered by the government.

In Nazi Germany, the government used its control of the state church to replace Lutheran pastors with Nazi preachers.

In Communist Russia the chuch was destroyed, driven underground, or totally controlled by the state in an attempt to mussle it.

In Modern England, the state church is defanged, toothless, and reconciled to derision if it attempts to wield power. (I apologize if this is too harsh, it is an observation from across the sea and through the false lens of the popular press.)

In Modern America, our lack of a state church has been a boon and a bust. We have no organized voice, and are easily painted as extremists on a par with the Islamist Terrorist.

However the wonderful observation of "Bella" pasted by "Atlas shrugged" speaks to this point too. A strong Church is the result of a people who are individually right and strong in Christ. Our proper response should then be our prayer and actions on getting ourselves right with the Lord, which will be outwardly shown in our desire and action in reaching out to our neighbors, our concern for their souls and well-being.

This will result in a strengthened Church; the moral and religious strength of the people will then naturally restore the Nation, if God so wills that to be.

Gnostic, I pray that God opens your heart and answers your prayers.

11 April 2010 at 03:05  
Anonymous no nonny said...

Why do our non-Christian visitors imagine that they know all about Christianity? They have no clue - and they can't even clear their glutted perceptions enough to appreciate the excellent explanations posted today by Atlas and others.

If these know-it-alls could stop scoffing long enough even to study Chaucer, they might see that the point is indeed that everyone has a different view: we each are separate parts of a fractured, fallen community. Neither Christianity nor any person, Christian or otherwise, is 'pure' - only God Himself was ever that.

As the earlier posts indicate, 'life' in earth gives us a chance to work towards a degree of purity. As we move from the love of this world (cupiditas) towards the Love of God (caritas) ... Christian duty requires response to the er 'Economics' of the situation. For although Christ redeemed us (that is, he 'bought us back') from the Fall, we have to answer to God for everything we do 'in earth.' That 'we' includes everybody --- including the people who fall under the judgement of poster "Margaret (et al)."

However, Christians acknowledge only one Iudex Aequitatis ('Unbiased Judge') of our present-day actions: and He sure ain't any limited, corrupt, bigoted, narrow, arrogant, self-absorbed, greedy, envious, ignorant, lying, creature that's strutting about on two legs in this world. And yes, that means all of us.

It even applies to the euSSR. Those who want to talk economics and practicalities, don't have to be overly literate to see that many here want to secede from that lot. Once we get their boots and claws and fangs off us, we can start saving all the millions they extort from us every day.

11 April 2010 at 03:43  
Anonymous no nonny said...

The Westminster signatories are at 15,890 tonight.

And, I jest not, wv = warcoade.

:) :).

11 April 2010 at 04:13  
Anonymous Tony B said...

>Why do our non-Christian visitors imagine that they know all about Christianity? They have no clue

No clue? You're sure about that, are you? As certain as the "know-it-alls"?

11 April 2010 at 07:31  
Anonymous Tony B said...

Bryan, what proportion of the German population in the 1930s was Christian, any idea?

11 April 2010 at 07:35  
Anonymous len said...

Bryan,
I am in total agreement with you.A state church is a church which compromises with whoever is in power, the church becomes a mere tool of the Government.
In Nazi Germany anyone who opposed Hitler and spoke against him were removed, the same thing happened in Russia.
The State church today I believe is;
The Apostate Laodicean Church of the End Times
Words of Jesus Christ;

"I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. Because you say, 'I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,' and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to annoint your eyes so that you may see." Rev. 3:15-18.

11 April 2010 at 09:16  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

What we have is a kind of Marxist ideology being implemented through fascist policies.

A Centralization of Agencies gathering Inteligence (CIA)

For our Korrupt Government Bureaucrats (KGB)

Taking advantage of the vulnerable feeling Messianic Judeo-Christains who want eveyone in the middle east slaughtering.

Also taking advantage of the vulnerable muslims, who sick of being slaughter, react extremely.

Signed: Grim Weeper

11 April 2010 at 10:15  
Anonymous Graham Davis said...

no nonny said...
Why do our non-Christian visitors imagine that they know all about Christianity?

Have you read all the Harry Potter books? No? But I’ll bet that you consider them to be just fantasy. Your religion despite the reams written in support of it is just fantasy, there is no God, so get used to it.

11 April 2010 at 13:57  
Blogger William said...

Mr Davis says there is no God. However, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus says otherwise.

11 April 2010 at 14:10  
Blogger David Wheeler said...

Len - with regard to the Apostate Laodician Church
of the End Times, I sympathise.
But amongst the ash and dying embers
there are still some live coals.

Grim Weeper - it's bigger than that. Check this out.
http://www.whale.to/b/300.html

David Wheeler.

11 April 2010 at 14:28  
Blogger Bryan said...

Tony B,

Officially pre-war Germany was 100% Christian, 1/3rd Catholic, 2/3rds Protestant; membership was compulsory through the practice of infant baptism. One could go through a process of renouncing membership in the church, but very few bothered to do so as it would have led to bad social repercussions, and attendance wasn't required.

In reality the church was weak, it was full of infighting over Calvinism and the need/desire to unite the former provincial churches into a united National church. The Nazi's accomplished this for them, by firing the heads of all the various state churches and creating a Minister of Religion to head and unite them all. He replaced any church leaders who were not sympathetic to the Nazi cause, and eventually replaced the Bible with Mien Kamph, the the cross with the swastika, and Christ with the Fuhrer. The Nazi church became a Pagan one.

11 April 2010 at 15:21  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Atlas Shrugged at 10.59 pm

Brilliant post.

Profound.

That one I am going to print off and stick up on my wall.

Thank you.

11 April 2010 at 15:29  
Blogger Lakester91 said...

Graham Davis says...

no nonny said...
Why do our non-Christian visitors imagine that they know all about Christianity?

Have you read all the Harry Potter books? No? But I’ll bet that you consider them to be just fantasy. Your religion despite the reams written in support of it is just fantasy, there is no God, so get used to it.

I can only assume this supposed to be a joke. I don't know whether to counter your shallow argument or just laugh at your attempt at caricaturing the ignorant atheist.

Do you need to read Harry Potter to know that it is fantasy? No you don't. That might be because it was written deliberately as a series of fictional novels. The writer knows it's fiction and she has never claimed otherwise. The Bible, on the other hand, is a collection of historical recordings based around (and inspired by) the God of both the Israelites and the followers of Christ. To claim that a historical work equates to a work of fiction just because one disagrees with its message is typical of unscientific men. In fact to take your view of ignoring all evidence in support of our religion is the height of bad science.

There are intelligent Christians, and there most probably is a God, so get used to it.

11 April 2010 at 17:36  
Anonymous no nonny said...

Tony B - you're right: slang can be polysemous too. The remaining context of my post develops as an oxymoron that indicates the many clues provided for the naysayers who visit His Grace's site.

Please note also that I distinguish between those who earnestly seek after Truth all their lives, and 'know-it-alls' who reject study, thought, and learning: before they begin to perceive how much we don't know and never will. My empirical evidence suggests that the latter characters tend to engage in trickery and treachery so as to win the "rat-race." They thus extend practicality into pragmatism; and nowadays they promote pragmatism as a virtue (i.e. a strength).

They also tend to be autocratic. This may contribute to success in the world, but there always comes a point where the Christian must choose either to take orders from them or to follow Christ. This is part of our concern in considering the political leaders presented here today.

Oh - and Harry Potter? The autocratic [his thought-controlling orders to me] and successful [so he tells us] Mr. Davis presumes to know.

I have read all the books. Suffice it to note that my doubts about the significance of the series fell into perspective once Rowling contributed so generously to the Labour Party.

Davis also presumes to know my stance on 'fantasy.' Chambers indicates that, etymologically, the concept comes to us from old froggish and hence Latin, and the Greek phantasia/phantazein: "to make visible." So Davis is right! I say the books are fantasy in the sense that all writing to some extent makes visible that which is invisible; makes present that which is absent. I believe Isidore of Seville (d. 636 AD) was one of the first Christian writers to articulate that dynamic of inscription.**

Of course, from around 2,000/1500 BC on, Judeao-Christians
nurtured literacy and produced their script: so as to analogize and manifest the Word of God, which is visible in all His Creation. Why, it's even in Mr. Davis, God Bless 'im!

**Etymologiae Bk. 1, Sect 3, Line 608. Ed. Lindsay.

11 April 2010 at 18:40  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Atlas shrugged : thought provoking stuff; thank you!

12 April 2010 at 19:27  

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