Monday, September 27, 2010

New Zealand Lamb is halal

And so, apparently, is most of the lamb and chicken sold at Sainsbury's, Tesco, Waitrose and M&S.


The Mail on Sunday revelation has been confirmed by the eminent Dr Richard North, a qualified meat inspector and former technical adviser to the Small Abattoirs Association (and contributor to the Mail article), who is of the opinion that this is ‘a bloody disgrace’.

Not the practice, of course, but the subterfuge.

And it is also going on in the nation’s schools, hospitals, pubs, restaurants and Wembley Stadium.

Insofar as the state permits the slaughter of animals in accordance with Jewish kosher stipulations, it is only reasonable that the same liberty be granted to Muslims with their halal requirements.

But kosher meat tends to be on the expensive side, so specialist butchers leave the buyer in no doubt about its provenance and it is clearly labelled.

Yet when it comes to halal, we are all being sold meat without being made aware of the fact that what we are eating has been ritually blessed and dedicated to Allah.

It is not only that these animals have their throats cut and appear to die in profound distress; it also transpires that slaughterhouses specifically employ Muslims to do the slaughtering so that they may proclaim with each thrust of the blade: ‘Bismillah Allah-hu-Akbar!’ (‘In the name of Allah, who is the greatest’).

You might expect this in the slaughterhouses which supply the major supermarkets in Bradford, Oldham, Birmingham, Leicester, Slough, London…

But to learn that all the New Zealand lamb sold by the major supermarkets is halal is immensely disturbing.

Not least because it does not fulfil the requirements of UK and EU law for humane slaughter: the decision is purely economic.

While Christians are at liberty to consume whatever their conscience permits, Paul expresses a particular concern over ‘meat offered to idols’ (1Cor 10:14-32).

But this assumes that the believer is aware that the meat has been blessed in the name of Allah, who is the greatest.

If the Christian is kept in the dark, Paul is rather chilled about the matter until someone comes along and makes the believer aware that the meat was idol-sacrificed. Christians are then exhorted not to eat the meat for their sake: we may eat and drink anything unless and until it causes another to stumble.

But no-one is much bothered about the dietary sensitivities of 71 per cent of the population.

British Sikhs, however, constitute 0.7 per cent, and their voice will be heard.

Unlike Hindus, some Sikhs eat meat, not least because one of their gurus is recorded as being a hunter. Yet within the Sikh faith are the ‘kurahit’, or prohibitions, one of which is to not eat meat ‘killed in the Muslim way’. The origins, as ever, have more to do with the politics of identity, but it is a sustained article of belief for Sikhs all over the world – they are simply not permitted to eat halal meat at all.

If they buy their meat from Sainsbury's, Tesco, Waitrose or M&S, they have been doing so without their knowledge.

In this instance, the sensitivities of Christians and Sikhs and the demands of the animal rights activists are subjugated to the commercial considerations of the slaughterhouses who are pandering to the demands of 4 per cent of the population.

At the core of relativism is the pyramid of rights. Various groups vie for these rights appealing for hegemony at the expense of others in a state of flux - an amoral soup - struggling for a place at the top of the pyramid.

As far as the nation’s meat is concerned, the victor has emerged.

But it is not illegal to dupe non-Muslims into buying halal meat, so it is being done on an industrial scale. There is no statutory requirement for stores to label produce ‘Slaughtered in the name of Allah, who is the greatest’.

Cranmer does not do boycotts.

Unless, of course, he feels strongly about a matter.

New Zealand has just lost a customer.

74 Comments:

Blogger English Pensioner said...

Many years ago, I used to go to Devon regularly on business, and whilst I was there I would always get a freshly butchered lamb from a local farm to bring home for the freezer.
Recently, when I went there, I was told that they no longer could do this due to EU regulations requiring the use of licensed abattoirs. As the farmer said, he had reared all the sheep on his farm and loved his animals; he certainly was not going to let them suffer when he slaughtered them, but now he had to have someone else take them to the abattoir as he couldn't stand the sight of the terrified animals who clearly knew what was coming.
We call this progress!

27 September 2010 at 10:10  
Anonymous Kiwi said...

Tomorrow morning, here in New Zealand, I'll be looking my local butcher in the eye, and asking him if any of his meat is derived from Islamic ritually slaughtered animals. If so, not only will I inform him he's lost a customer, but I'll tell him why. Not only that, I'll be passing on the news to anyone and everyone. Word of mouth is very powerful indeed.

27 September 2010 at 10:22  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

That is an utter disgrace. Another customer lost.

27 September 2010 at 10:23  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

I hope this publicity results in a nationwide backlash against this barbaric practice.

27 September 2010 at 10:43  
Blogger Gnostic said...

I don't have a religious problem, I have a moral problem. I'll be boycotting lamb, most especially NZ lamb, unless I'm certain it has been killed humanely and no ritual mumbo jumbo has been muttered over it. I don't buy meat from supermarkets because I live in a rural community and most meat is locally sourced (and tastes better). I will be checking with my local butcher to see where and how it's killed though.

To hell with the creeps who thought we shouldn't be told about this halal crap. What the eff happened to freedom of choice?

27 September 2010 at 10:52  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

About 2 years ago, my local Asda turned a large section of it's deli section into a "National Halal Centre" - which was bad enough. I now notice that is no longer a "National Halal Centre", just the "Meat Counter". But if you look closely on the far wall there is a little sign with some arabic writing, and all the butchers are of a certain ethnic origin. Also - strangely for a meat counter - there is no bacon or ham to be found anywhere!

27 September 2010 at 10:55  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've known NZ lamb was Halal, and avoided it, for years.

Eat pork: you can be sure that no observant Muslim has been near it!

Martin

27 September 2010 at 11:01  
Anonymous Eat British Bacon said...

A substantial part of the reason that New Zealand lamb is Halal is that the middle east is their main export market. When we joined the EU in 1974 it left the kiwi farmers in a bit of a pickle. Their export market was the UK and now closed. The Americans don't eat much lamb, and neither do the far east. The middle East became their main export market by the 1980's, and a very successful market too. The product has to be Halal for the middle east, so as we are only a minor part of their exports now, so is ours.

Without wanting to don my tinfoil hat, we should be blaming Ted Heath and the EU for this!

27 September 2010 at 11:03  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

EBB, we may be a minor part of NZ lamb export market but it dominates the shelves in our local supermarkets. Where does all the superior Welsh lamb go?

27 September 2010 at 11:28  
Blogger Curbishlyauto said...

Welcome Back.

I'm a bit late but no less sincere.

27 September 2010 at 11:40  
Anonymous Eat British bacon said...

It's largely about price, New Zealand is the most cost effective producer in terms of both quality and price because of it's high quality agricultural land. Theirs is the most competitive dairy and lamb producing agricultural economy in the world, hampered only by it's distance from export markets. Welsh lamb is more expensive, simple as that.

27 September 2010 at 11:43  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

Thanks EBB. Perhaps I should try M&S or Waitrose but would they be Kosher?

27 September 2010 at 12:22  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

You had better add Australia to your boycott of meat products as they have been doing the same for some time.

But hang on there, isn’t this a conscience issue? Muslims and Jews believe that they should be exempt from animal cruelty legislation because of their beliefs just as Catholic adoption agencies have tried to do with gay adoption.

Is your objection about the lack of labelling or the inhumane ritual slaughter?

Personally I am even more concerned about the ritual mutilation of male infants on religious grounds, which takes place every time a circumcision is performed. Just imagine the outrage if I wanted to snip a bit of my son’s ear so as to identify him as an atheist! Unless it is required on medical grounds circumcision should be regarded as assault.

27 September 2010 at 12:34  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

@Graham Davis. You can snip your child's ear ... many do. You should see the amount of babies round here with earrings in.

Incidentally - cervical cancer amongst Jewish & Muslim women is almost unheard of. Maybe we should all be circumcised?

Re: the issue in hand, I think Cranmer is quite clear about what his objections are.

27 September 2010 at 12:57  
Anonymous len said...

The facts that Muslims are catered for(no pun intended)in this fashion and Christian views ignored seems to totally sum up the Secularisation of our once Christian Nation.

Mr Davis , no one gets circumcised unknowingly( or at least not without the parents consent anyway) so your argument is a very weak one.

27 September 2010 at 13:04  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

Rebel Saint strange that your god allowed such an obvious design flaw to slip through.

So len you think it morally acceptable for a parent to mutilate their child, I don’t.

27 September 2010 at 13:40  
Anonymous len said...

Graham Davis,
But to abort A child is P C then?

27 September 2010 at 13:51  
Anonymous len said...

Graham Davis ,

Have a look at some of the abortion process`s on the internet you will see what true mutilation is!
This is perfectly acceptable in our society though.

27 September 2010 at 13:54  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

Len

No I don’t think abortion is morally acceptable except in exceptional circumstances and particularly when contraception is so widely available.

27 September 2010 at 13:57  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

The slaughter goes on despite it being against UK and EU law because the alternative of stopping it is too horrible to contemplate.

Why do you think the federal authorities would crush animal rights activists? Animal rights activists who found themselves defeating State science labs would consider knocking off halal and kosher butchers a pushover: Tesco and Sainsburys would be next on their shopping list.

Muslims are not like Christians in the west. After Christian confidence in Judaeo-Christianity collapsed in the Sixties, Muslims concluded they must be adhering to the one true faith.

In ‘European identity and Islam’ (Graz, 13 June 2003) Romano Prodi, President of the European Commission said:

‘Islamic thought and concepts are clearly based on the revealed book, the Koran. So it is impossible to understand Islam without a knowledge of the Koran. Without religious knowledge one cannot correctly interpret the immense richness of the traditions and cultures emerging from the Holy Book…’ and

‘This brings us full circle to European civil society with its large spectrum of partners: more than in the past, the European identity of the future will be based on diversity and unity. And clearly this unity must also offer the widest possible pluralism.’

27 September 2010 at 14:43  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

On a practical note, not more than 200 yds from were I am writing this is a butchers shop with its own slaughterhouse. A friend of mine is a hobby farmer although with 40 head of cattle it has become a bit more than a hobby. I often see him taking an animal to slaughter in his horse box. The gates of the small car park are closed for 15 minutes while the unfortunate animal is led into the shed. After hanging for the requisite amount of time my friend collects the butchered animal, takes it home and freezes it. Not a koran in sight and all done under current animal welfare legislation.

27 September 2010 at 15:55  
Anonymous Prue said...

This cruel practice is disgusting
and savage. What is the matter with these people?

27 September 2010 at 15:57  
Blogger Jared Gaites said...

"And a Mail on Sunday investigation has found that fast-food chains including Domino’s Pizza, Pizza Hut, KFC, Nando’s and Subway are also using halal meat without telling customers. But the UK’s second-biggest supermarket, Asda, has refused to confirm or deny whether it sells halal meat."

Well, I have some disturbing news for all of you. I used to work in a lamb slaughter house on Anglesey and it was a major source of meat for Asda (the meat would be packaged with Asda labels), and the meat was being slaughtered Halal fashion. I can't say for sure if this is still taking place but I can confirm that it was happening during 2002 when I worked there.

And another sad but interesting point is that lambs would be brought to Anglesey from all over the UK and so long as it was grazed in the field next to the slaughter house for 24 hours it could be labelled Welsh Lamb, and it was.

Time for people to start paying more attention me thinks.

I worked in the dispatch area, no stomach for butchery.

27 September 2010 at 16:43  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What a lot of whingers! I am so glad that the Daily Mail has highlighted this issue. It means that muslims can purchase their meat along with the rest of their shopping from the supermarkets and get to eat out in restaurants without going for the veggie option. I think the supermarket sales will ROCKET. Viva the supermarkets.

27 September 2010 at 17:06  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

Jared

A year ago Asda started to sell halal but made a point of distinguishing it from other meat.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8330442.stm
BBC said
Asda has also introduced halal meat concessions, selling meat and poultry slaughtered in accordance with Islamic ritual, in 12 of its stores. Anyone wanting non-halal meat has to buy pre-packed.

27 September 2010 at 17:07  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is indeed a disgraceful situation, and we should boycott NZ meat. But is not the word 'Allah' simply the arab name for God, and was used by Arab Christians long before the time of Mohammed - and still is?

27 September 2010 at 17:51  
Anonymous len said...

The 'Allah'worshipped by Arab Christians is plainly not the 'Allah' worshipped by Muslims.

27 September 2010 at 18:11  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So bloody angry about this! I would have expected better of M & S and after this they will get no more of my custom .....

27 September 2010 at 18:19  
Anonymous Byrnsweord said...

This is astonishing. Absolutely astonishing. Has there ever been a better example of the power of minority influence on society?

27 September 2010 at 18:34  
Blogger Preacher said...

It seems to me that unless we are vegetarians the slaughterhouse is never going to be a place for the squeamish, but as long as we enjoy meat the slaughter will continue. Let's face it there is no nice way to die for anyone or anything, some ways are quicker than others but dead is dead.
If we have visited a Muslim country we have almost certainly eaten halal meat, or in Israel Kosher meat. As Dr Cranmer so rightly points out, it's the deceit that is wrong. I've heard of Muslim cab & bus drivers who have refused to accept dogs, even guide dogs in their vehicles on religous grounds & I'm sure that if a strict Muslim were in some way to be sold pork in say a meatball there would be riots. The only answer is to boycott the stores that are using this subterfuge, go veggie as in the book of Daniel 1 vs 8-21 (might be beneficial) or exist on the good old British breakfast with loads of sausage & Bacon. Once again the power & deceit of the EU is evident, How long must we put up with this gang of rogues & vagabonds? Mr Cameron, show some intestinal fortitude, (not halal please). WV norsemeno, time for a smorgasbord in the mead hall?

27 September 2010 at 19:35  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

God’s in His Heaven and Dr Cranmer’s ashes have dusted themselves down. Bliss.

Other examples of creeping halalization include the decision by Gate Gourmet, the airline caterer, to make most of its dishes halal and the award of a halal compliance certificate to Daisyfield Primary School in Blackburn. The headmaster can be seen here bending the knee to Islam.

For those with a strong constitution, this video begins with an example of humane slaughter and moves on to ritual slaughter. I only got about halfway through; the cow with its head held in a steel clamp while its throat is slashed was the limit of my endurance.

27 September 2010 at 20:04  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not least because it does not fulfil the requirements of UK and EU law for humane slaughter:

This is not true as both Jews and Muslims have an exemption in the UK from stunning animals before slaughter.

27 September 2010 at 20:08  
Anonymous Robert The Devil said...

AncientBriton.....where does all the superior Welsh lamb go?

Probably the same place that superior English lamb went about 20 years ago when "English" became (still is) a dirty word.

That aside though, my anger is aimed at the Islamification of Christian England, talk of a secular society, you must be joking.

No pun intended but we are being led like lambs to a Halal slaughter. Question is, what to do about it?

27 September 2010 at 20:09  
Anonymous Robert The Devil said...

Forgive me for being pedantic Preacher, shouldn't that be "good old English breakfast etc etc"

27 September 2010 at 20:36  
Anonymous Old Grumpy said...

Would anyone happen to know whether ORGANIC NZ lamb is halal? I rather rather doubt it, since The Soil Association has very strong views of animal welfare, but it would be good to know

Hold your breath, since if it is, then I shall have some strong things to say to both Waitrose and the Soil Association (who certify organic standards)

27 September 2010 at 20:56  
Anonymous CRUX SANCTI PATRIS BENEDICTI said...

Graham Davis: You say:
"No I don’t think abortion is morally acceptable except in exceptional circumstances and particularly when contraception is so widely available."

This is not logical. Contraceptives can act as abortifacients (the pillkills.org). They also lead directly to more abortions as evidenced by the fact that most women abort after a contraceptive failure. If your against abortion, why do you support policies which result in more abortions and damage to women's health?

27 September 2010 at 21:08  
Blogger Preacher said...

Robert the Devil.
Well, could be my friend, but I have partaken of the glorious repast in many places in good old Blighty.

27 September 2010 at 21:42  
Anonymous CRUX SANCTI PATRIS BENEDICTI said...

And while we are on the subject of butchery, does anyone know how much of the collagen in cosmetics and placenta in shampoos comes from aborted babies?

27 September 2010 at 22:21  
Blogger Theresa said...

I'm rather puzzled your Grace. If you're slaughtering animals halal fashion so that Muslims will buy the meat, then surely it makes sense to label it 'halal' otherwise how will they know? I don't get it.

27 September 2010 at 22:38  
Anonymous Robert The Devil said...

Blighty !
Now there's a blast from the past, could we be of the same vintage Preacher, ah, happy days!
I am now going to have that song in my head for yonks.

27 September 2010 at 23:01  
Anonymous Andy said...

Good point Theresa. How can Muslims know for sure that what they're also getting is all above board and er, Kosher?

Since childhood I have always detested meat and the killing of animals. In my view, all meat-eating (Halal or otherwise) is rascaldom, when so many alternative sources of nutrition are available.

27 September 2010 at 23:11  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

While I definitely agree with the idea that there should be proper disclosure as to whether the meat is halal, the assertion that it's an inhumane method of slaughter is blatantly false, especially compared to the normal ways meat is slaughtered.

I've got a brother who is a kosher butcher and I have watched him slaughter a goat in the way that both kosher and halal meat is to be done. Due to requirements for sharpness in the knives and the specific techniques they employ in making the cut, the animal suffers far less than in non-kosher/halal slaughters.

In fact, the animal feels almost nothing and simply falls asleep as it bleeds out. If the animal struggles and thus has a less peaceful death, the meat cannot be sold as kosher or halal.

It may not be pretty, but it's probably the most humane way to slaughter an animal.

28 September 2010 at 01:05  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Anonymous at 0105, you can't be serious.

28 September 2010 at 08:51  
Anonymous Harrow said...

I am dissapointed that the supermarkets do not label their meat as halal... as they would have gained 3 million muslim customers in the UK who in 90% still purchase meat from smaller halal butchers. Halal meat from these shops and even supermarkets is more expensive than normal meat sold. Lets not blame the Muslims in this country since the products sold were clearly not labelled for them also? It is funny that many of your commentators show disgust to HALAL meat when in fact most of the fast foods/ Donar Kebabs and restaurants that they eat at are HALAL any the majority of its customers are non muslims????

I say label it as Halal so not to upset those who are easily upset.

Maybe they should stick to Vegetarians -- ooops even those have feelings....

28 September 2010 at 13:58  
Blogger Oswin said...

Where is 'English Viking' when you need him???

28 September 2010 at 16:52  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anonymous @ 0105

You have not seen a fully functioning halal slaughterhouse in operation. The animals suffer much distress, eventually passing into convulsion and death.

If they are killed in the non-ritual manner, they are stunned and therefore senseless right from the outset.
Which would you prefer?

28 September 2010 at 20:22  
Anonymous Voyager said...

Fortunately there is no halal pork or bacon, but we can take it for granted that chicken and lamb are halal. Thus an exemption from EU regulations for a minority has been exploited to circumvent EU regulations - the exemption should be revoked.

Pig farmers were bankrupted in England by animal welfare rules which Dutch and Danish producers did not implement and it seems now that with large contracts going to halal butchers, any non-halal supplier cannot bid under EU open procurement rules for public contracts.

Lamb is far too expensive - probably the most expensive animal bone in any type of meat. They are still allowed to slaughter for personal use and I have heard of sheep in passenger cars from Market for halal slaughter in the kitchen.

I have found a local butcher using local meat and a local slaughterhouse - he is cheaper than Morrisons for chicken and better quality.

Brazilian and Thai chicken is used in ready meals and is full of antibiotics etc.

29 September 2010 at 07:42  
Blogger Oswin said...

Why have those otherwise loonies, the 'animal rights' brigade, not surfaced on this one?

Too big and dangerous a target; or not 'sexy' enough when compared to harassing medical-research companies?

These are geniune questions, however formed; I would like to know their 'take' on all this?

29 September 2010 at 17:35  
Blogger H said...

You seem to be suggesting that Hindus do not eat meat. Strict vegetarianism is generally, however, confined to Brahmins and the other superior castes. Beef is of course avoided by all Hindus and pork is generally thought unclean in India itself (which will be self-evident to anyone who has seen an Indian hog in action!), although the lowest castes do eat it. Chicken and lamb are widely eaten by Hindus.

30 September 2010 at 14:16  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Allah is the Arabic word for god. God of Abraham.

30 September 2010 at 19:35  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can see why a growing number of people view religion with such distain and suspicion when in the name of religion we mindlessly return to the barbaric practices of the seventh century of ritual slaughtering of animals without any thought about its cruelty and simply discard the many years it took for abattoirs to adopt better/humane practices. I for one will not be eating it.

1 October 2010 at 02:31  
Blogger srizals said...

Almost a perfect article, if only there are insertions of scientific views on how an animal should be handle prior to consumption.

If I may,

"The intensive research conducted at the School of Veterinary Medicine, Hanover University in Germany was headed by Professor Wilhelm Schulze. He was assisted by Dr. Hazim. The study was named: "Attempts to objectify pain and consciousness in conventional (captive bolt pistol stunning) and ritual (Islamic method of cutting with knife) methods of slaughtering sheep and calves."

The results were most unexpected to the non-Muslim Westerners. The claim that the CBPS (Capital Bolt Pistol Stunning) method was least painful and most humane dashed to the ground. The findings testified to the fact that the slaughter of an animal with a sharp knife is the least painful and most humane of all methods of killing".

http://www.halaljournal.com/article/3360/halal:-the-most-humane-slaughter

1 October 2010 at 14:06  
Anonymous len said...

The whole point of this article was that meat was being slaughtered in the name of Allah and people( in a Christian country )weren`t informed about it.

This meat should have been labelled 'Halal slaughtered in Islamic fashion) and people given the option of either accepting or refusing it.

2 October 2010 at 21:16  
Blogger srizals said...

That is the case Len, if you refer the arabic bible and converse with arabic Christians and some of the Christians in Malaysia, you'll be surprised what Allah meant for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah

http://blog.limkitsiang.com/2010/01/21/catholic-use-of-allah-is-prompted-by-demand-of-east-malaysian-christians-living-in-peninsular-malaysia/

2 October 2010 at 23:57  
Blogger srizals said...

One more link that I think would be easier for you.

Allah!
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/allah.html

3 October 2010 at 00:32  
Anonymous len said...

Srizals,
Do you believe the Islamic 'Allah', (the 'Allah 'of Mohammed )is the same as the Christian God Yahweh?

3 October 2010 at 09:05  
Anonymous len said...

In your Koran, as you must know, Allah commands Muslims, "Take not the Jews and Christians as friends 1 Surah 5:51, A1 Hi1-a1i, v. 54, Jusuf a1i), so Allah is not the God of the Christians. In the hadith, Muhammad himself said, "The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them" (Mishkat al Masabih Sh. M. Ashraf, 1990, pp. 147, 721, 810-11, 1130, etc.). Islam's god hates the Jews; the God of the Bible loves them as His chosen people! Allah is very clearly not Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the God of the Bible!

3 October 2010 at 09:12  
Blogger srizals said...

Yahweh? Tell me Len, is it the reference of the God of the Jews, without a father and a son and the Holy Ghost? Or is it the reference of the trinity god by the Christians? Please clarify the connection between Christians’ Yahweh and Jews' Yahweh. I thought the Jews refer their god as Elohim, the one god. And they keep on saying that they had killed Jesus Christ.

Since the reference to Yahweh is not universal as Allah, I have to say no.

If the Jews and Christians at that time (the time of Muhammad) were friendlier than the current Jews in Israel towards the Palestinians or as the current Christians in Iraq and Afghanistan (and Pakistan), perhaps God would not have warned the Muslims about them.

The IDF is among the strongest military power in the world. Have you forgotten how strong they were against the stone-aged warfare of the mighty Palestinians? I haven’t forgotten how some Jews on Harley, drinking and laughing as they witnessed the Palestinians toasted by US-made Willy Pete. Trapped and helpless. Have you ever heard of such a war?

The Christians and Jews have nukes and military prowess over all Muslim nations. I won't worry much about that Len, since throughout history; most Muslims have been proven to show mercy to the defeated and the ones that discontinue aggressions towards them. Most Christians and Jews had and have not. Even when the mighty Ottoman Turks were at the height of their power, they showed resistant from annihilating everything in their path; since they could not attack without just cause, just defend.

You can't expect Muslims to turn the other cheek when some evil Jews and Christians (powerful governments) that had forsaken the teachings of their religions invaded and raped them. Look at how the people around you behaved when a few evil Muslims (individuals) mimic their evil ways of killing the helpless, so that everyone would felt the pain and fear of the helpless.

3 October 2010 at 14:56  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Len, i am christain and meat is meat as long as we bless it with god's blessing and jesus our witness . So i dont have problem with it, as long as it tastes good and i bless it at home before i eat it. So stop being small minded :), lets do our duities as cristians first, if your athist i dont think it should bother you, and about salvagery its debatable, As i see it. Imagine some one electric shock u before cutting ur ur head off... still pain is pain.

Peace my christian brothers

3 October 2010 at 15:30  
Anonymous len said...

Srizels,
"I won't worry much about that Len, since throughout history; most Muslims have been proven to show mercy to the defeated and the ones that discontinue aggressions towards them."(end of quote)

Over one million Armenian Christians were savagely slaughtered by the Turkish Muslims at the beginning of the twentieth century. According to a report by Khartoum University professors Ushari Mahmud and Suleyman Ali Blado, more than one thousand Dinka citizens were massacred in the Western Sudan town of Diem in 1987. The Baptist Record newspaper of November 5, 1987, added that dozens of pastors have been killed and many churches destroyed since Islamic law was imposed in 1983, when Sudan was officially declared an Islamic republic. The Baptist World Alliance newsletter of September, 1987, tells of 130 church buildings and pastor's homes, all of Christian denominations in Kadona State in Nigeria, being destroyed by Muslim rioters.

Srizels, research who Muhammad was, look at the documented history of his life, and what he did or did not accomplish. Ask, no, beg, the true God of Creation to show you the truth about Muhammad. Seek the truth of God through His Old and New Testament Word first, and then compare the life of Muhammad to that of Jesus Christ. Until you do that further conversation is pointless.

4 October 2010 at 07:57  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Buy your meat at Morrisons. NOT halal. At least one supermarket respects its majority customers.

4 October 2010 at 11:11  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Len,

Your reffrence and arguments is funny at best , insuting your own intelligence at worst. Firstly your points of reffrence was from 20th century + as to how muslims might have mas murdered people, yet when we look at the greatest nastiest mass murder to have every lived for example Napoleon ( who was reffered to by many as the anti crist) and hitler ( who again was seen as an anit christ) were so called christians. As a christian i take offence as a christian if a muslim used it that as a reffrence to how christians are. There is no documented factual evidence that Muhammed mass murdered any one infact he lived well with other beliefs ( btw I am a historian by trade). So lets not get whipped up in this hate train and relax. I do blame the supermarkets for not labeling it properly. But even then i still buy it cose as a christian i bless my food before i eat it. god bless.

4 October 2010 at 12:16  
Blogger Oswin said...

Slightly off-topic but ... I've just received my second 'warning' in as many days, from AOL for expressing my concern regarding the evils of Islam. Expressed rather less forcibly than I do here, I might add! Another warning and I shall be required to find a new server.

Islam has many tentacles, and it would appear that they have effectively sewn-up (stitched up?)most avenues of differing opinion.

5 October 2010 at 18:30  
Blogger Oswin said...

Anonymous @12.16

Hardly surprising that Len chose not to comment re' your drivel. If you are indeed an historian, I truly pity your students ... your grasp of what is pertinent to an intelligent discussion is shoddy, bordering upon the barely educated.

However, even the 'barely educated' are seldom as devoid as logic as are you!

6 October 2010 at 00:17  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your Grace,

It's a fallacy that a halal-slaughtered carcass bleeds out better and because of the cruel method of killing that results in prolonged panic and serious pain, the carcass ends up laced with lots of unwholesome substances.

Here is the analysis and position of the German state veterinarian: http://www.bundestieraerztekammer.de/datei.htm?filename=gutachten_schaechten.pdf&themen_id=4882 Google translate actually does a semi decent job.

So, people in general have a good reason to avoid halal meat and that is why shops need to label accordingly.

Regards Kosher slaughter: a) there is a large movement in Israel which thinks that Kosher slaughter no longer is the best method of humane dispatch since science has show it not to be, and so, it by now breaks the spirit in which this halachic law was conceived. The same goes for muslims and many will accept stunned meat for this reason.

8 October 2010 at 16:07  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hello

I think some of you poms have got your facts wrong about NZ lamb. Im a kiwi and I work at the freezing works (slaughter house). Yes the meat is halal but you seriously show some ignorance. First of all the animals are stunned! Then have the wind pipe cut then left to bleed out. The animals aren’t slaughtered on the ground, but they on a chain draggling in mind air.
We allowed to stun the animals as by Muslim beliefs it technically doesn’t kill the animals! Then cut them, let them bleed, and process them! Most of NZ slaughterhouse a better than anything in Europe (we have EU regulators come and see us every season) and our conditions are more humane.
Might I add our biggest market isn’t the UK but the Middle East. So that one reason why it is halal, but it your (uk) supermarket chains that demand the meat to be done halal! The NZ meat companies don’t like doing halal meat as it takes more time and have fickle regulations rules etc… Also there are a lot of non halal slaughter house in NZ as well!
So go and boycott you local supermakert, they tell us (kiwis) they want it done as halal!

Anyway, I hope that has cleared some of the picture for you.

11 October 2010 at 00:25  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Corinthians 8: Clearly states that christians cannot encorage the spread of other faiths by eating sacrificed meat.

Its a sin against christ.

In such a situation like this its says to lay off meat.

Christians have no choice but to boycott all meat until they can be assured as to where it comes from.

28 October 2010 at 14:58  
Blogger jsd said...

We have enough legislation; to crush this illegal meat trade if anyone wants more information please contact me at mrdanengland@hotmail.co.uk
I have been going round supermarkets buying New Zealand lamb and taking it back the next day defrosted and getting my refund, and going into takeaways then cancelling my order. Consumer Direct says they will take up a case against Tesco, but more to join the fight will be helpful.

The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008
Misleading omissions 6.—(1)
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/draft/ukdsi_9780110811574_en_1

This is enough legislation to crush this wide practice of putting Halal into the general food chain; this practice is also a criminal offence, with 2 years jail and £5000 fine. The charges can only be brought by trading standards or OFT though.
The Welfare of Animals (Slaughter or Killing) Regulations 1995
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1995/731/schedule/1/made
SCHEDULE 1 THE LICENSING OF SLAUGHTERMEN
SCHEDULE 12 ADDITIONAL PROVISIONS FOR SLAUGHTER BY A RELIGIOUS METHOD
Article 9 Human Rights Act, Freedom of Conscience - the right to religious and secular freedom, ie to not be forced to participate in religious rites. Dedicating this meat to a god violates this right: forced participation... in another's religion without consent. Sikhs & Christians are specifically instructed not to eat this meat, so where is their religious freedom?

31 October 2010 at 17:04  
Anonymous bullit said...

like most i abhor the type of ritual killing which, despite reassurances to the contrary, are barbaric compared to our method (cruelty of staff not withstanding)
and, yes, i fundamentally object to non Christian prays being spoken over food i am going to eat.
before anyone says im prejudiced, i suggest you enter a halal shop and utter a Christian pray over the food; if you come out alive please contact

29 January 2011 at 14:56  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I do not think the person writing anonymously as a Kiwi slaughterman is genuine.Only Muslims can slaughter halal.

Kiwis are just waking up to the invasion of Sharia Law in our domestic meat industry and are systematically boycotting it. There are huge benefits to the Islamic Federations of New Zealand from the hala certification process and this fact in itself rattles the most complacent. 36,000Muslims here. 4,000,000 non-Muslims. Halal butchers and restaurants exist in NZ and advertise and label themselves as such. There is no need at all for halal meat sold to our export market or to our domestic market not to be labelled as such so consumers have the choice.

13 March 2011 at 01:05  
Anonymous John-An atheist view said...

This state of affairs bothers me deeply for 2 reasons. I don't mind the way the animal is killed, as something like 90% of the meat we're talking about here (the stuff from the major supermarkets) has been stunned before being sliced, in much the same way as non-halal is, so to me, the way it's killed is a moot point.

The first thing that bothers me, is the lack of honesty. Shops know all too well that if they label things clearly as halal, they will lose business, so they don't. Fair enough, you may say...but I don't. I'm an atheist, but even I find it shocking that these people don't seem to even think about the fact that a large portion of their customers (certainly larger than the portion of muslim customers) would be horrified to find out they've been eating meat that has been dedicated to allah.

Secondly, this is another example of politicians not saaying what we all know is right, because it will "offend" muslims. There's that magic word we hear so often. Like the race card, as soon as someone starts voicing an opinion you don't like....reach for the "That's offensive" card!

And what do our politicians say in return?

"You don't want to follow our 21st century laws? No problem Mr. Muslim, here's a special pass that'll let you stick with your 7th century ideas."

This is also brought about by the usual tactic of simply branding anyone who criticises islam, as racist and intolerant.

Rubbish. It is not racist to criticise a belief system. Clearly race and beliefs have nothing to do with each other. I would whole-heartedly condemn anyone who confuses the issues, and starts saying genuinely racist things like "go home P***s", or other such ignorant things.

However, saying "The law requires the stunning of an animal before being killed in this country, and no exceptions will be made for anyone" is not racist at all. It would simply be upholding the view that the ethical treatment of animals is more important than what your 7th century book, written before stunning animals first was even imagined, has to say on the matter. If jews and muslims refuse to eat non-strict-halal/kosher meat (the kind that conforms to the idea that the animal has to be fully aware while it's throat cut), then fine! There's plenty of that meat imported from places with lower moral standards, so buy it from them!

I'm being intolerant? You're damn right.

I am indeed intolerant of 7th century b*******, trumping 21st century hard-won animal rights.

I am indeed intolerant of anyone, of any religion, who expects or seeks to achieve a situiation where their religious views impact other's lives whether they like it or not.

I am indeed intolerant of this kind of deception.

But guess what; It's good to be intolerant of ignorance, bullying, deception and barbarism.

6 April 2011 at 01:41  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i would like to say that the way animals are sluaghterd in a reglar slaughter house are far worse then that in a kosher or halal slaughter. I know people who have owrked in both. IN THE regular slaughter they are "stunned" with stun guns which only works about 40% of the time from there hooks are stabbed through their feet while they are still fully conciouse then they are hung upside down with all their weight pulling on their skewered feet. from here they slit their throughts.. so why is halal so much worse both animals die in a similar way except halal animals are not skewerd alive nore hung upside down to be killed http://vimeo.com/6296269 this link shows you how brital the regular way of slaughter is your killing an animal its never going to be a nice process but my familey is christian and we choose to eat halal because it is simply treated better then this abomination

26 April 2011 at 21:36  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

like it matters. if you eat meat, its killed for you, and although halal meat may be considered more barbaricaly killed, ALL meat is killed none the less. if someone was to murder you, would it make a difference if yo were to be killed "brutally" or "more humanely"? because either way your still dead. just get it eaten, dont waste food when theres people dying of starvation. and i dont mean just in foreign countries. the way things are nowadays people are starving here in the uk. if people cared as much about whether they could help there elderly neighbour if they wanted to join themm for a meal every so often instead of whinging about halal meat, then wondering why the neighbour has 40 bottles of milk and a letterbox full of free papers. ask the starving of our country if they care where there meat comes from, and i bet the answer will be "i dont care as long as its there" meat is meat. either get it down your neck or go veggie. like i say at the start. eating non halal meat is still THE SAME as eating halal. its bred. its slaughtered. its cooked. its eaten.

eat it. dont eat it. just dont whinge about it.

3 August 2011 at 05:05  
Blogger Sh. Mustafa Sh. Dawood bhai said...

Killed humanely? Stunning has only been around for perhaps the last 50 years or so and that too only in certain 'modern' parts of the world. Does that mean that everyone who has hunted and killed an animal for the duration of mankind's existence before and elsewhere is/has been doing it inhumanely?
The idea that anyone can measure the pain of an animal is utterly ludicrous, ever been to a doctor and had him measure your pain?
A cut with a sharp knife or an edge of paper isn't felt at the time of 'impact'. And who is to know what pain the animal is in when it is stunned? All that has been achieved is that the ability of the animal to react has been negated.

28 December 2011 at 19:04  

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