Sunday, October 24, 2010

Vatican synod: "There is no longer a chosen people"

The Jerusalem Post reports on statements made by sundry bishops in the Middle East who were summoned by Pope Benedict to a conference to discuss the plight of Christians in that area.

Amongst its conclusions, they have decreed that:

1. There is no longer a chosen people;

2. Israel should end it 'occupation' of Arab lands.

3. Israel 'uses the Bible to justify “injustices” against the Palestinians'.

4. The Holy Scriptures cannot be used to justify the return of Jews to Israel.

5. Christians cannot speak of the ‘promised land’ as an exclusive right for a privileged Jewish people.

6. God's promise to Israel was 'nullified by Christ'.

7. All men and women of all countries have become the chosen people.

8. Ergo, the Abrahamic Covenant (along with Anglican Orders) is absolutely null and utterly void.

Mordechay Lewy, Israel’s ambassador to the Holy See, told The Jerusalem Post that this represents 'a return to successionist theology, contradicting Second Vatican Council teaching and Pope Benedict himself – who has welcomed the return of Jews to their ancient homeland'.

Uh huh.

The Ambassador added: "By inviting all Palestinian refugees to return and denying Israel’s right to define itself a Jewish state – the only such in the world – (the Synod) is regressing to hard-line positions that deny Israel’s right to exist.”

His Grace has written on the insidious anti-Semitism of Replacement Theology before, and has just one thing to say to this synod:

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Perhaps the assembled bishops and archbishops of the See of Rome would explain to His Grace at what point the Lord God Almighty changed his mind.


Anonymous Anguished Soul said...

Well said, Your Grace. The Lord Almighty is a covenant making God who doesn't change His mind. Expect Genesis 12.3 to come into effect upon those in the Catholic church who say otherwise. I wait with baited breath to see what happens next!

24 October 2010 at 17:24  
Anonymous Indigo said...

The See of Rome would say that the Jews broke the covenant when they refused to recognise that Jesus Christ "fulfilled the law". That's why the Temple was destroyed, and at that point the Jews forfeited "chosen people" status.

You can see why God was miffed.

24 October 2010 at 17:59  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Oh dear! Has this received the official Papal stamp; if so, it is bull!

Ok, it is no time for jokes.

It would appear that Roman Catholic Church has shot itself in the foot, again. Worse still, it has shot Israel in the back!

Now, without a leg to stand on, and a blue-on-blue mauling of the prime spear-head against a pernicious Islam, the 'Panzer Pope'
has surely cast a track!

Has the Vatican issued any statement on this, Your Grace?

24 October 2010 at 18:09  
Blogger Jared Gaites said...

Bunch of fools. Foolishness. We are wild olive branches and they are the roots, or they were the roots and now they are broken branches, and we are the new branches grafted onto the roots - What? I know it's scripture but it sucks. I have been working all day today, Sunday, the sabbath, but the sabbath was Saturday, and now it's Sunday - When did God change His mind on that one by the way?

I can't be bothered I'm too tired. Len MUST have an opinion about chosen People?

24 October 2010 at 18:10  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

So this just about completes it; everyone I have looked to for guidance and truth now appears to think that alienation of our friends and appeasement of our enemies is the honourable thing to do.

24 October 2010 at 18:25  
Anonymous len said...

Excellent article your Grace!!.
Replacement Theology is one of the evil doctrines used as an excuse to persecute and kill Jews throughout History.When the Jews are no longer seen as the chosen people they can then be despised and bullied as they have been for centuries, a long history of persecution ending in the death camps of Hitler.
Replacement Theology would also make God a liar and a Covenant breaker( a thing God detests).
The church at some point( when and by whom is debatable)decided to get rid of its Jewish roots and by so doing promoted replacement Theology and anti Semitism.
Christians by taking part in Replacement Theology are actually opposing Gods plans for Israel and the Jews and in some cases actually siding with the enemies of Israel.

24 October 2010 at 18:27  
Anonymous len said...

Jared, Hi again,

God didn`t change the Sabbath.

Constantine( a sun worshipper did, he changed the sabbath to SUN- day, amongst introducing a lot of other Pagan customs into 'christianity'

24 October 2010 at 18:31  
Anonymous taskermax1994 said...

Chosen people as a title is was and is given to all those, Jew and Gentile who are and have been chosen "In Christ" before the foundation of the World.
Are there Chosen people living in Israel? Yes of course there are. Jews and Gentiles who have accepted Christ.
I might also add that The Arabs have NO claim in the Modern state of Israel.

24 October 2010 at 18:38  
Blogger Jared Gaites said...


"I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."

Guess we are all screwed this time then.

24 October 2010 at 18:42  
Blogger JamesD'Troy said...

That 'Israel 'uses the Bible to justify “injustices” against the Palestinians' is pure bunk. The Palestinians commit plenty of 'injustices' against themselves to the point that if the Bishop's statement were to be accurate, it should read, 'Palestinian Muslims 'use the Quran to justify “injustices” against Muslims, Christians, and Jews'.

As for the Middle Eastern Bishop's declarations and embrace of 'Replacement Theology', a case study in 'Stockholm Syndrome' if there ever were one...

24 October 2010 at 18:51  
Blogger Jared Gaites said...

This is where being Christian gets confusing for me.

Are the Jews the roots and the broken branches? Is it just the Gentiles who have to embark on Len's genuine quest for truth, and who must be "truly born again"? Are the Jews the roots and so long as they do not bow their knee to Baal, then they are saved because of their rootyness?

It sure isn't easy to get to grips with. Where is the Holy Spirit when your tired and fed up?

24 October 2010 at 19:12  
Anonymous Stuart said...

This is a deperate and obvious act of self-preservation.

The Christian minorities within the Islamic lands are the very people these bishops represent and they are so crushed, persecuted and dwindling that they had little option but to travel this route to preserve themselves from yet more of the same.

We must bear this in mind before we judge them for taking this option.

It's easy too easy be harsh on them from the comfort and security of our western world.

24 October 2010 at 19:20  
Blogger Jared Gaites said...

Replacement Theology is an interesting idea. When Jesus comes back there is going to be NO debate. Or so I am led to believe anyways. You will be given a simple choice, and there will be some serious cutting and pasting (to put it in more contemporary terms, as opposed to grafting and pruning).

24 October 2010 at 19:35  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Excellent post Cranmer.

It is time to pick a side.

Will you side with the Jews, Israel, and the Lord?

Or will you side with the pope, the EU, Russia etc (see Ezekiel 38?)

Jesus said in Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Pick a side. There will only be one winner.

Mr chipfat @ twitter

24 October 2010 at 20:42  
Anonymous graham Wood said...

testing testing

24 October 2010 at 20:50  
Anonymous Remember Unkiar Skelessi said...

Just Ratzi the Nazi reverting to form?

24 October 2010 at 21:02  
Anonymous graham Wood said...

Cranmer. May I suggest that a belief in what is called Replacement theology' is not necessarily Anti Semitic nor a mark of liberal theology? Why should this be assumed?

Secondly, any reading of the New Testament will quickly reveal that in all important respects the OT nation of Israel and its institutions HAVE been replaced, so the term Replacement Theology is not altogether out of place.
Think for a moment. All the NT letters with minor exceptions are written to Christian churches, not to the Jewish nation.
Paul's understanding of the church is that it is now comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles and that the national identity of OT Israel, including its place and status under the Old Covenant has been abolished for ever. (Eph 2:16)
As regards the claims of modern Israel to justify possession of the "land" of Israel today, it must be evident that there is no OT or NT justification for such claims. Possession of the land was always conditional for Israel on obedience to the Covenant which we know the Jewish nation rejected right up to and including rejection of their Messiah.
Thus, the clear warning of Jesus to them in the parable of the wicked Husbandmen was completely fulfilled
Modern Israel is largely a secular, militaristic and God rejecting nation like many others.
Nevertheless, as you rightly quote from Romans God has not rejected his people, and there is still today, as there always has been, a believing remnant of believers even within the nation state of Israel today. Such believers are called Messianic Jews, as distinct from the unbelieving majority.
Hence the relevance of your quotation (in part):
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
Replacement - what does it mean?
Simply that all the institutions of old Israel have been "replaced" in Christ and the church. Thus Paul avers:
"For ALL the promises of God (under the Old Covenant) in him (Christ) are yea, and in him, amen."
National distinctions of a 'favoured' or elect nation per se have been entirely abolished as Paul explains in Galatians 3:26-28.
Much more could be said - but that will suffice for now!

24 October 2010 at 21:31  
Anonymous Preacher said...

Your Grace.
It's patently obvious that there must come a seperation between those that truly recognise that "Salvation is from the Jews" & the 'religous' rest that have never picked up a Bible, let alone studied its teaching. But simply trust that being good & attending church is all that God requires for salvation.
At the rise of antichrist the Bible speaks of a heretical one World faith, that persecutes & murders the saints until the return of Jesus & the last great battle that takes place in the Middle East on the plain of Meggido, where Satan & his followers are defeated. Thus it's not difficult to see that the word of God is even now coming true despite all that fallen man can do to circumnavigate it.
The Jewish race are not all super saints, but they were & are & always will be the people that God chose for His master plan. They gave us Jesus the saviour & by God's grace & mercy we are saved through Him. I raise a cup of thanks to them.

24 October 2010 at 21:59  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Thank you for the full text, Your Grace.

Christ was a Jew; the Church of Rome thus owes its all to Jews who transmitted their knowledge of God to Italy. Was not Simon-Peter also Jewish? What then, does Ratzinger condemn Peter also? Will not the latest PaPa admit that Romans, like all mankind, have received the grace of Salvation through the Tree of Jesse? Does he not understand the paradox at the heart of Christianity: the evil of Crucifixion and Death engendered the forgiveness of Resurrection and Life? "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." [Luke 23:34]

Further still - even though Pilate pretended to wash his hands of the blame: Crucifixion was the Roman death penalty, wasn't it? Those soldiers at the tomb were Roman, weren't they? The other criminals were crucified, that day, according to Roman Law, weren't they? Were not Romans, then, as much God's instrument as any Jew?
But Ratzinger presumes to deny Christ's own request.

Once more, then: Rome would condemn us all, deny Salvation, and put the blame for everything on the Jews. So they set us up for another of their endless "Controversies." The commies use the same age-old principle: keep us busy fighting among ourselves, and then we won't fight them.

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

24 October 2010 at 22:27  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Oh, and Stuart - I'm sorry; but if our present mare's nest is "comfort and security," then whatever will we call the living nightmare that ensues?

24 October 2010 at 22:32  
Blogger Owl said...

Something is odd.

From the Jerusalem Post:
Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon

"We are especially appalled at the language used by Archbishop [Cyrille Salim]
Bustros during his press conference," Ayalon remarked, referring to the
archbishop whose committee drafted the statement. "We call on the Vatican to
distant themselves from Archbishop Boutros' comments which are a libel against
the Jewish People and the State of Israel and should not be construed as the
Vatican's official position. These outrageous comments should not cast a shadow
over the important relationship between the Vatican, the State of Israel and the
Jewish People."

Archbishop [Cyrille Salim]
Bustros is a Lebenese currently in Boston. The Melkite church has worldwide approx. 1.3 million adherents.

Danny Ayalon does not want these statements to be construed as the official Vatican position so I must assume they they are not officially such. Has Benny spoken?

Archbishop Bustros has also been quoted as warning against militant Islamism due to it being an integral part of Islamic teachings. Why the sudden moves for appeasement?

This would appear to be more political manouvering than anything else. But why and why now?

Something is odd here.

24 October 2010 at 23:13  
Anonymous len said...

I think it is time for Catholics to seriously consider where their Bishops are leading them and where their Bishops are getting their information from. Certainly not the Bible!

24 October 2010 at 23:14  
Blogger rick allen said...

Would it be too much to ask for a link for the original source of these propositions? I think we can be forgiven for wanting something other than a journalist's take on a religious communique.

24 October 2010 at 23:45  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Vatican is the site of the most outrageous fraud ever perpetrated n mankind. It is home to a pagan religion masquerading as a Christian organization. Read a novel called On This Rock by Dave Leonard for a good look at how they operate. It's a fun novel but it is based on history and it will shock and disgust you.
How this church will survive much longer is hard to imagine since they can no longer torture and kill at will but who knows. Read that book and pass it around.

25 October 2010 at 00:44  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"not all who are Abraham are of Abraham"

We are Abraham's sons by faith, not by historical succession.

25 October 2010 at 02:24  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"assembled bishops and archbishops of the See of Rome"???
The See of Rome has one bishop.
The assembled bishops would be quite offended to that their sui juris churches were not recognized by a pretender to the see of St. Augustine.

25 October 2010 at 02:27  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Ill have a go , basically the promised land of Israel was for those who came out of slavery and kept the law . Christ is fullfillment of the law ergo no more promised land . Perhaps that is what his holiness is saying .

I can see a few other difficulties in this , but perhaps his holiness is trying some dialogue

25 October 2010 at 02:41  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps a little information would help ameliorate the crass ignorance of many commentators here.
Most Jews today perhaps have some biological connection with the Jews of old, but they are not the Jews of old. They follow the traditions of the Pharisees condemned by Jesus. They do not follow all the Old Testament precepts imposed upon Israel. And praise God they do not, because the ceremonial precepts of the Old Law have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ who has come and will come again and so those ceremonial precepts are now deadly to those who practice them as Paul continually explains.
But, it seems this site thinks that God wills Jews to be obstinant in their unbelief. The true Kingdom of God is Christ's qahal (ekklesia, church). Israel is restored in Christ alone. Any modern Israel has no connection with biblical prophecy. In fact, it is a stumbling block for Jews to come to faith in the Messiah.
Now, the bishops are rightly upset by the racist and unjust policies of modern Israelis. They are correct that we are made one in Christ in whom there is neither Greek nor Jew. Now that the Messiah has come why focus on racist notions of biological descent? We belong to him not by blood or by the will of men, but by the will of God. (Jn 1) To claim to have Abraham is all good and well, but God can raise up descendants of Abraham from even rocks if He so chooses.

25 October 2010 at 02:47  
Anonymous IanCad said...

Thanks for digging this up YG. Rome never changes. This is a replay of the policies of Pius X11. Stand aside and let the jews be killed.

25 October 2010 at 04:57  
Anonymous Esther said...

God makes contact with the Pope through the Holy Spirit when important religious matters need clarification. There was obviously a misunderstanding about Jews being ' the chosen people'..the clarification being 'the chosen people ' for persecution. I think everyone understands that already.

25 October 2010 at 05:50  
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If you're expecting a rapture instead of a rupture, Google "Famous Rapture Watchers," "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty," and "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy."

25 October 2010 at 06:06  
Blogger Paul said...

1. Most modern Jews are not biological descendants of Abraham himself, but people grafted into the Israelite community (for example, the multitude that came out of Egypt along with Abraham's sons). God's promises were extended to such people not on the basis of biology (like modern Jews) but on the basis of the covenant. The Bible is most clear on the newness of the new covenant.

2. God's promises to Israel were not 'nullified by Christ' a la the pope. They were fulfilled in Christ. The Jews have not lost out on any promises. But they must accept the Messiah (as their OT forefathers did, looking forward).

3. God always intended to unite all things in Christ (Ephesians 2-3), both Jew and Gentile.

4. Awful things have been said and done against the Jews in Christ's name, including much (most) pro-Palestinianism.

5. It is quite possible that Jewish exceptionalism (mostly rebirthed in the 19th century by Christians) led to this whole problem getting worse, due to the perception of Israel getting special treatment.

25 October 2010 at 07:37  
Blogger Gnostic said...

"Pass me another rocket, Ahmed, we have Satan's pope on our side..."

25 October 2010 at 07:53  
Blogger Caedmon's Cat said...

This development (and post) has revealed the confusion there is among the ranks concerning Israel and the Jews. As a conservative evangelical myself, I don't have any truck with premillenial (or postmillenial) ideas - or the idea that the establishment of the state of Israel is some glorious development in the history of redemption. Anything political rings alarm bells as far as I'm concerned.
The Jews rejected Christ, and despite their religious heritage (which eloquently speaks of Ha-Mashiach, would that they realised it), without Him at the centre of their theology and their attitudes they remain lost like the unregenerate goyim. However, a good number of Messianic congregations have developed - which is - albeit in part - a fulfillment of St Paul's prophecy quoted by Cranmer.
Since He is immutable, God doesn't change His mind - but churches and theologians do because their interpretations - like them - are 'tossed about by every wind of doctrine.'

25 October 2010 at 08:54  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

One of the commenters here has said:

‘Any modern Israel has no connection with biblical prophecy.’

That is utter nonsense.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Matt 24

The above verses are in a particular context: ‘And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?’

The fig is the national symbol of Israel. Who would have thought that in Sir Isaac Newton’s day that Israel would once more exist upon the Earth?

In 1948 Israel was re-established. The ‘generation’ that is not going to pass away is the generation that will see ‘…these things be fulfilled.’ People seem to think that the ‘generation’ Jesus was referring to was the generation that existed in His time. Again, the context projects into the future.

Whether the majority in Israel believe or not is neither here nor there. The fact is God has permitted Israel to exist once more as a nation-state for His end-time purpose.

There are other signs: ‘But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.’

Men are again taking the name of the Lord in vain. Switch on the TV and one hears God’s name being used as a curse.

The ‘Fallen Ones’ are back or are being released from the ‘Abyss’. Students of geometry are writing doctoral theses on new theorems discovered in crop circles. These crop circles are not being made by men. Soil samples taken from these sites clearly show that the soil has turned to silica.

Time is short.

25 October 2010 at 09:20  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One day the Jews will be grafted back on the vine. They will join the Church of Christ. This has nothing to do with land rights.

25 October 2010 at 09:21  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

Those who believe in God, in ancient “rights”, in scripture, in promised lands, in magic and the rest of it deserve each other. How ridiculous it sounds listening to this squabbling amongst the so called Abrahamic faiths and all of you claiming authenticity. Does it never strike how utterly absurd it all is?

Even if there was a God (which there surely is not) do you really think he/she/it would regard this clamouring for attention as worthy of their creation?

Religion in all its forms is a useful as bucket with a hole in it. Most of the Gods that man (in his ignorance) has created are now defunct; the few that “remain” reveal their man made origins at every turn. Like all totalitarian systems they demand obedience and loyalty and attempt to enslave each new generation in order to retain control.

But they have that one extra demand that exceeds all others, Faith! It is the ultimate Catch 22 situation. There is no evidence for the existence of any God, (but plenty to the contrary) so Faith is regarded as the ultimate virtue. If evidence of God existed, Faith would be unnecessary. That is why Faith is at the very heart of this deceit.

That millions who are born into ignorance believe in these myths may be understandable as they have not the wit or education to contest the fallacy and are steeped in the superstition from birth. But to cling to these ancient superstitions is unworthy of a thinking person.

25 October 2010 at 10:00  
Blogger Caedmon's Cat said...

Anonymous said...

One day the Jews will be grafted back on the vine. They will join the Church of Christ. This has nothing to do with land rights.

I fully concur. The key is Christ Himself. The whole Israel/Palestine thing is a sideshow - a distraction.

Mr Davis - nice to see you back! God bless you.


25 October 2010 at 10:07  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

Caedmon’s Cat.

Psst! I think that your master is not being entirely truthful with you. There are no places for cats in the kingdom of heaven so your faith will go unrewarded.

25 October 2010 at 10:35  
Blogger Caedmon's Cat said...

Mr Davis - you are among the finest theologians I have ever encountered in these pages. But, pray tell me - on what authority do you place the premise that there are no cats in the hereafter?

25 October 2010 at 11:05  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

My dear cat I am afraid that being a mere beast you do not possess a Soul and as we all know it is only Souls that enter the kingdom of heaven so I should make the most of this life as you won’t be getting another.

25 October 2010 at 11:34  
Blogger Caedmon's Cat said...

Dear Mr Davis:
You really haven't answered my question (tut, tut) - which was: by what authority do you make your assertion that cats have no place in the Kingdom of Heaven?
And - following the logic of your last posting, it would appear that you don't have a soul either.. What on earth have you done with it? Have you sold or lost it? I think you ought to make it your business to get it back PDQ... ;-)

25 October 2010 at 11:59  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

My dear moggie

You are correct, neither you nor I have a Soul and to let you into a little secret, neither does your master or indeed anyone, so you will not be missing out. My advice to you is to look both ways when you cross a road and carry on killing birds and mice as that is your nature.

25 October 2010 at 12:20  
Blogger Caedmon's Cat said...

Dear Mr Davis --
It's very kind of you to let me in on the little secrets to which you have been privy. However, I've concluded that you've been studiously avoiding the question of the authoritative basis for your assertions regarding the place of cats in the Kingdom. For a theologian of your standing, I am very surprised at your reluctance to disclose the sources of your premise.
As a cat it's true that I don't have the same psyche as humans - and collectively, we cats don't share in responsibility for the fallen state the world is in. But we are intuitive creatures, and we have more theological awareness than you give us credit for.
And we love to play with our prey..!

25 October 2010 at 12:52  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

From David Lonsdale

The covenant with Abraham should not be confused with the promises to Israel given through Moses. The promises through Moses were conditional. The covenant with Abraham was unconditional.
Had the Pope said what he did in 1910 men would have said that history has proved them right thus far. Now that the Jews have returned to Israel, just as God said they would in many places in the OT, are we not now seeing the Abrahamic covenant coming to pass. Or did God not intend for the Jews to return to Israel, therefore making him out to be a liar.
History is now on the side of all those Christians through the ages who said that the Jews would return to God's land according to the promise.

25 October 2010 at 14:01  
Blogger Manfarang said...

"now that the Jews have returned to Israel"
There has always been a Jewish presence in Israel in modern times.

25 October 2010 at 16:35  
Blogger PaulineG said...

Since it would seem, as Owl observes, that the comments offered here are not based on the original sources let me just offer the following links:

Full text of final Synod message:

Full text of Synod propositions:

25 October 2010 at 17:02  
Blogger rick allen said...

Pauline, thank you for the links.

As far as I can tell from a quick perusal of them, there is nothing in them that would justify our host's heading, "Vatican synod: "There is no longer a chosen people"." Perhaps I am missing something. If I am I would appreciate being put right.

25 October 2010 at 18:10  
Blogger PaulineG said...



25 October 2010 at 18:40  
Anonymous len said...

There seems to be some confusion as to Spirit and Soul.
Animals DO have souls,the( soul consists of mind will and emotions) but they apparently do not have Spirits.
To verify whether this is true or not approach a wasps nest and poke it with a stick, the wasps will use their mind to decide what is happening, they will use their will to set about stopping the disturbance and you will observe (if you care to remain) that wasps can get extremely angry!.

25 October 2010 at 19:04  
Anonymous len said...

Replacement theology presumes that the 'church ' has replaced Israel in Gods plans.
The million dollar question is what is the 'church.?
Is this 'church' the Catholic Church which is the amalgamation of 'Christianity 'and paganism, a continuation of Caesar worship merely replacing Caesar with the Pope.
The Pope actually stands in the position reserved for Christ and accepts the worship for himself which should be for Christ alone.

The word' Church' is actually a deliberate mistranslation of the word Ekklesia using the English word "church" instead of "assembly" or "congregation." This translation has helped promote the false doctrine of a universal church and a hierarchical authority over the local congregation.

25 October 2010 at 19:26  
Blogger Caedmon's Cat said...

So much confusion hangs on what Israel actually is. The Israel of God since the Abrahamic promise has been drawn from all the nations: the promise to Abraham was Christ Himself, who said that when He was to be lifted up, He would draw ALL nations to Himself. This is the present reality. What Paul says in Romans 9 is that the ethno-religious Jews will be once more grafted into the spiritual rootstock. That's why I tend to regard political Israel as a distraction; there are more Jews outside geographical Israel than within its borders. They won't all migrate there: it'd be a tad crowded!

Len -
The word "Church" derives from the Greek "kyriake" - "The Lord's". The notion of a universal church is biblical, but only in a spiritual sense - not as an earthly institution (hence the parable of the wheat and the tares).

25 October 2010 at 21:13  
Anonymous IanCad said...

Cats in Heaven??
'And the lion shall lie down with the lamb'

25 October 2010 at 21:28  
Blogger Caedmon's Cat said...

Some dogs won't be there - Rev 22:15

25 October 2010 at 21:44  
Blogger Owl said...

Thank you for your links.
Having read the 41 propositions and the accompanying concluding statement, I am at a loss to explain his Grace's 8 points (or at least 6 of them). The second point is correct but the concluding statement also includes a special reference to the Lebanon which is hardly surprising as Archbishop Bustros comes from there. The paragraph regarding using the Bible to justify any form of aggression is clearly aimed at both Jew and Christian:

"It is time for us to commit ourselves together to a sincere, just and permanent peace. Both Christians and Jews are called to this task by the Word of God. In his Word, we are invited us to listen to the voice of God “who speaks of peace”: “Let me hear what God the Lord will speak, for he will speak peace to his people, to his holy ones” (Ps 85:9). Recourse to theological and biblical positions which use the Word of God to wrongly justify injustices is not acceptable. On the contrary, recourse to religion must lead every person to see the face of God in others and to treat them according to their God-given prerogatives and God’s commandments, namely, according to God's bountiful goodness, mercy, justice and love for us."

I suspect it is aimed at the Christian rather more than the Jew.

The "41 Propositions" relate mainly to concerns regarding emigration of Christians from the Middle East and ways to combat this. What is a bit disconcerting is the silence concerning who is responsible for the persecution of Christians in the area in question.
In general, a fairly pro Arab document written by Christian Arabs. The only thing that the Vatican might have a problem with is the support of married Priests. Interesting one that!

The documents were given to the Pope for his perousal. I haven't seen a Vatican reply yet.

I wonder if the statements his Grace is referring to, are perhaps the personal comments of Archbishop Bustros himself?

25 October 2010 at 23:28  
Anonymous The Ancient said...

Oh, Your Grace, just when we're all lighting candles to celebrate your return, you go all peevish once again.

Now there are many obvious defects in this article, and it does imply that the Church of Rome has unfinished business, but it nullifies the pretense of finality in your post.

(There is more to faith than picking fights. One might just as well spend a winter's break picking pansies from the flower pots of the Anglican Church and calling them bouquets. I mean, what's the point? How many bare ruined choirs do you need?)

26 October 2010 at 05:39  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Ien:

I would dispute with your claim that the word Church is "actually a deliberate mistranslation."
I grant that it is an interesting historical fact that Germanice languages did not adopt the Greek ekklesia as the Romance languages, but the Greek word adopted and changed by English clearly meant "belonging to the Lord."
Was it "deliberate"? How do you know that?
Now, it's true ekklesia can signify congregation or assembly (although I'd suggest convocation is better as a calling together), but Anglo-Saxons would not have adopted those Latin and French based words until much later.

You are gravely mistaken about the Church being merely local. As we see, the Apostles -such as Paul - claimed universal authority over local churches.

Secondly, you are mistaken about the Church being merely spiritual. In fact it is downright Gnostic! The truth of Christinaity is that God has become incarnate. Acts shows that Christ's earthly ministry continues in the members of His Church in whom He is spiritually present. If the Church were not visible than how would anyone find Christ? If the Church were invisible alone then you have no argument against Montanus and Muhammad who claimed private revelation directly from God.

Instead, Christ the Son of David reinstituted the Kingdom of Israel in His visible Church. He established visible rituals for this ekklesia (qahal). And some could also be excommunicated from this visible convocation.

Paul's metaphor of the body makes no sense if the Church is some nebulous merely spiritual entity with no hierarchical ordering.

27 October 2010 at 14:10  
Anonymous len said...

There is a reason why the word "church" is substituted for a translation of ekklesia, but it is without any justification whatever. To put it simply, the word "church" appears in the King James Version (KJV) because King James ordered it there. He demanded that the word ekklesia not be translated by the word "congregation" or "assembly!" Thus the translators were forbidden to render the true meaning of the word and were required by the King to substitute the word "church." In fact, Rule 3 of the "Rules to be observed in the Translation of the Bible" specifically says: "The old Ecclesiastical words [were] to be kept, viz. the word church not to be translated congregation, etc." The translators obeyed the King and that version is rightly called the King James Version! The English word "church" does not belong in the Scriptures!


27 October 2010 at 20:47  
Blogger Ivan said...

Cranmer why didn't you just report the truth? Some Melekite bishop spouted off about the chosen people and you then implied that this was the Pope's position. I didn't expect this from you.

28 October 2010 at 19:57  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One must wonder, again, what is in the heads of these souls who lack a soul.
Is it Lutherian of the bishops when ML, out of frustration that Jews would not accept his "kind" offer to convert, turned on them and demanded that the synagogues (with worshipers inside) be burned to the ground, along with Torah scrolls and various and sundry books?
Is is Chrysostomic and Bernard de Montfaucon-ic when the group, who like Toynbee could not understand why Jews survived, decided that the survival of the Jews was not in God's hands but instead in the hands of Satan.
I say, "A pox on you for being covetous, for bearing false witness, and for once again cursing that which you cannot control or understand. When the Messiah comes, be sure to have your asbestos longjohns ready, boys!!!"

28 October 2010 at 22:49  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Old popey needs to throw out his bible then if he thinks this way, of course with his german heritage and certain connections we know who he thought was the chosen people.

1 November 2010 at 18:42  

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