Tuesday, December 14, 2010

Gerald Kaufman: The Coalition is complicit in Israeli war crimes – “God forgive them”

Yesterday, David Cameron made a speech to the Conservative Friends of Israel, at a dinner attended by the Israeli Ambassador His Excellency Ron Prosor. According to Jonathan Isaby’s report, the Prime Minister ‘commended the measures being taken by the Israeli Government to ensure success for its "modern, dynamic, enterprise economy" and also expressed his delight at how much a sense of history and country matters to Israeli people’.

Mr Cameron said that his and the Conservative Party's friendship with Israel ‘thrived in opposition... and will be strengthened in government’. He concluded: "You have a Prime Minister whose belief in Israel is indestructible."

As Mr Cameron was making this speech, Gerald Kauffman, the Hamas representative to the Labour Friends of Palestine, was speaking in the Chamber on the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill. As Robert Halfon observes, Mr Kauffman’s ‘hatred for Israel knows no bounds’:

Hansard
7.16 pm
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): What my right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) has said about the attacks on the strength of the police and about the cuts in police budgets particularly affects us in Greater Manchester, where we have an absolutely excellent local police service that will be severely damaged by what the Government propose.

I wish, however, to concentrate on clause 151, which has been smuggled in to fulfil a Conservative election pledge made in a full-page advertisement in the Jewish Chronicle during the general election, namely the change in the administration of universal jurisdiction in this country. There is no need whatsoever to change the law. To obtain an arrest warrant for a suspected war criminal, it is essential to surmount a high hurdle, and that rarely happens. Such applications are made rarely, and are granted even more rarely. This change in the law would never have been proposed if it were not for the case of Tzipi Livni, the war criminal daughter of a terrorist father, who was scared off coming to this country because of the danger of an arrest warrant being issued for her. She was jointly responsible for the slaughter in Gaza in Operation Cast Lead in which 1,400 people were killed, including 300 children, in a war in which 14 Israelis were killed, some by friendly fire. It is bizarre that a major change in our criminal justice system is being made at the demand of one of the most discredited regimes in the world.

Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): The right hon. Gentleman specifically identifies Tzipi Livni and talks about the accusations that have been levelled against her, but I am sure that he will agree that, as Foreign Minister, Livni would not have had either direct or ultimate command responsibility for any of the alleged atrocities. Will he concede that what he has just told the House is incorrect?

Sir Gerald Kaufman: Of course not. Tzipi Livni is a war criminal and, what is more, she issued a vocal and extreme statement in support of the attack on the Gaza flotilla. She is not wanted in this country —

Mr Offord: She is in my constituency.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order.

Sir Gerald Kaufman: Without the change in the law she would not dare come here. The Israeli Administration are one of the most discredited regimes in the world, and have persisted in committing war crimes, right through to the lethal attack on the Gaza flotilla on 31 May.

Robert Halfon: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Sir Gerald Kaufman: I shall give way in a moment. Israel breaches international law and the Geneva convention —[ Interruption. ]

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. Hon. Members should know better. I do not want a debate going on across the Chamber from sedentary positions. If Members want to intervene, they should do so in the correct manner.

Sir Gerald Kaufman: The fact is that Israel breaches international law and the Geneva convention every single day. It has just snubbed the President of the United States by refusing to halt the illegal building of settlements — that in itself is a contravention of international law.

Robert Halfon: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way, but I must say that his hatred for Israel knows no bounds. He explains exactly why universal jurisdiction needs to be changed — it is being used as a political football by people such as him who have hidden agendas.

Sir Gerald Kaufman: There would have been no proposal to change the universal jurisdiction law if Tzipi Livni had not been scared away from this country after committing appalling war crimes against the people of Gaza. It is as simple and as plain as that.

As I said, the Israelis have just snubbed the President of the United States by refusing to halt the illegal building of settlements. The Israeli regime uses its powers of arrest without charge arbitrarily. Two Members of the Knesset, including the Deputy Prime Minister, were scared away by the law, but 30 members of the Palestine National Council are currently held by the Israelis without charge. That is not a threat of arrest, but an actual arrest.

Last month, when I was in Jerusalem, I visited three PNC members who are taking refuge from arbitrary arrest by the Israeli police with the international Red Cross. I met and heard the testimony of young Palestinian children who were assaulted by Israeli police — they showed us their scars and bruises — as a result of the arbitrary and illegal way in which the Israeli police treat Palestinians, including Palestinian children. When we met the Foreign Minister of Jordan in Amman, he told us that he had to offer diplomatic shelter to the President of Palestine because when they were driving along one after the other, the President was continually halted at Israeli checkpoints. For all those crimes and many more, the Israelis are answerable to no one. Now, one of the few sanctions on those crimes will be removed. As a result of the Bill, Israeli politicians will be literally allowed to get away with murder.

That comes at a time when the ground is shifting. As I said, the pledge on the measure was made in a full-page advertisement in the Jewish Chronicle in order to get Jewish votes in the recent general election, but there is an upheaval in the Jewish community, as a result of which the across-the-board support for anything an Israeli Government do is no longer available.

Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend referred to what people said during the general election. Does he recall what position every single Liberal Democrat MP took before and during the general election?

Sir Gerald Kaufman: I am well aware what they said, because week after week, I sat in the Chamber at business questions, when the current Deputy Leader of the House rose without fail to say how heinous and unacceptable it would be for the Labour Government to change the law on universal jurisdiction, and how the Liberal Democrats would be totally opposed to any such change. We have an obligation to remind the electors of Oldham East and Saddleworth of the broken Liberal Democrat pledge of 3,000 more police on the streets, and of their broken pledge to oppose any change in the law on universal jurisdiction. Those things will not go by unnoticed.

As I said, an upheaval is taking place in the Jewish community. The attitudes of leading Jews who have been vocal champions of Israel are becoming deeply critical of the current Israeli Government. One of the most active and vocal supporters of Israel has accused them of being in the process of turning Israel into an “apartheid state”.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) pointed out, the hypocrisy of the Liberal Democrats on universal jurisdiction is unlimited, as on so many matters. Week after week, their spokesman rose and vehemently opposed a change in the law for which he will vote tonight, just as Liberal Democrats voted last week in blatant breach of their election pledges.

Whatever change in the law the Government introduce for the most craven reasons, Tzipi Livni and her ilk will remain unwelcome in this country. What worries me is that without a valid and operable legal sanction — one currently exists, but the Bill will repeal it — and without the legal deterrent that the Bill removes, disapproval of the presence in this country of Livni, Netanyahu and their cronies will take forms that I and many others deplore.

Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Is it not a fact that the right hon. Gentleman is at the extreme in his views on Israel? Many of us consider them abhorrent, and Front Benchers on both sides of the House have expressed their support for clause 151. It is interesting that he has used the debate on the Bill as a vehicle to display his political views rather than to debate justice. Does he agree that arrest warrants should be issued when there is insufficient evidence to justify a prosecution, because that is at the heart of this matter of justice, not his political views?

Sir Gerald Kaufman: The hon. Gentleman may wish to behave like a creep to his Front Benchers — I was elected to Parliament not to creep to my Front Benchers, but to speak on behalf of my constituents. Indeed, I persuaded the previous Prime Minister to abandon his proposal to change the law on universal jurisdiction. I went to see him and persuaded him that the proposal was mistaken, and he did not proceed with it. If my Front Benchers do not want to agree with me, that is their business. I state a view that I have stated consistently in the House for very many years, and I shall continue to do so, because it is the Israelis who are in trouble, the Israelis who are turning Israel into a pariah state, and the Israelis who will be overcome by demographic changes — they will be outnumbered by the Palestinians — and this Government are an accomplice to what they are doing. God forgive them.

72 Comments:

Anonymous Voyager said...

Status

Gerald Kaufmann is basically a self-loathing Jew. History is replete with such people who were the mainstay of the Bolsheviks and the Chekists and the Nihilists.

It is not a crime to support Israel nor to condemn it for transgressions, but to depict it as a uniquely evil state is to expose a pathological mindset.

I have no respect for Gerald Kaufmann whose role in the Wilson years was as devious and malign as he is today

14 December 2010 at 10:57  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Your Grace, it seems that Sir Gerald Kaufman may have dined with Noam Chomsky and Robert Fisk before rising to speak in the House. On the other hand, bravo Dave!

14 December 2010 at 11:00  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

>> '...the Prime Minister ... also expressed his delight at how much a sense of history and country matters to Israeli people’.<<
Would that 'sense of history' be from the Stern Gang onwards?
Defence against the excesses of Islam is one thing but an “apartheid state” is another. A better solution must be found.

14 December 2010 at 11:12  
Blogger DAD said...

"I was elected to Parliament not to creep to my Front Benchers, but to speak on behalf of my constituents"

I wonder how many of his constituents support him in this 'crusade'.

14 December 2010 at 11:30  
Blogger Ariadne said...

It isn't very creditable in an "Ancient Briton" to be antisemitic.

Myths & Facts Online
Human Rights in Israel and the Territories
By Mitchell G. Bard

-----------------------------------
Israel is one of the most open societies in the world. Out of a population of 6.7 million, about 1.3 million — 20 percent of the population — are non-Jews (approximately 1.1 million Muslims, 130,000 Christians and 100,000 Druze).1

Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Arabs currently hold 8 seats in the 120-seat Knesset. Israeli Arabs have also held various government posts, including one who served as Israel's ambassador to Finland and the current deputy mayor of Tel Aviv. Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior, the first Arab citizen to become chief executive of a key government ministry. Ariel Sharon's original cabinet included the first Arab minister, Salah Tarif, a Druze who served as a minister without portfolio. An Arab is also a Supreme Court justice.

Arabic, like Hebrew, is an official language in Israel. More than 300,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools. At the time of Israel's founding, there was one Arab high school in the country. Today, there are hundreds of Arab schools.2

In 2002, the Israeli Supreme Court also ruled that the government cannot allocate land based on religion or ethnicity, and may not prevent Arab citizens from living wherever they choose.2a

The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This is to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethren. Nevertheless, Bedouins have served in paratroop units and other Arabs have volunteered for military duty. Compulsory military service is applied to the Druze and Circassian communities at their own request.

Some economic and social gaps between Israeli Jews and Arabs result from the latter not serving in the military. Veterans qualify for many benefits not available to non-veterans. Moreover, the army aids in the socialization process.

On the other hand, Arabs do have an advantage in obtaining some jobs during the years Israelis are in the military. In addition, industries like construction and trucking have come to be dominated by Israeli Arabs.

Although Israeli Arabs have occasionally been involved in terrorist activities, they have generally behaved as loyal citizens. During the 1967, 1973 and 1982 wars, none engaged in any acts of sabotage or disloyalty. Sometimes, in fact, Arabs volunteered to take over civilian functions for reservists. During the outbreak of violence in the territories that began in September 2000, Israeli Arabs for the first time engaged in widespread protests with some violence.

The United States has been independent for almost 230 years and still has not integrated all of its diverse communities. Even today, 60 years after civil rights legislation was adopted, discrimination has not been eradicated. It should not be surprising that Israel has not solved all of its social problems in only 57 years.

[Now 62 years. The "apartheid" propaganda has whiskers]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html

14 December 2010 at 11:32  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kaufman has previous form, been around for yonks, he's a self-loathing, misguided, guilt ridden plonker. It's time to put an end to 'career politicians' - three terms, say fifteen years in public service - max!

14 December 2010 at 11:56  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Further, the company one keeps when labelling democratic Israel an "apartheid state" is far from admirable.

I wonder how many antisemites haven't heard of the Bible, which does have some history in it.

14 December 2010 at 11:57  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Anon on career politicians - Yes, yes, yes!

Two terms should be enough.

14 December 2010 at 11:59  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

Ariadne, I wasn't aware it was antisemitic to question. I thought that was reserved for Islamophobia. However one looks at it, the dividing 'security' wall, demolition of neighbourhoods and erection settlers' dwellings on occupied land doesn't come across as good PR.
To seek a solution is not to take sides.

14 December 2010 at 12:13  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

It is quite clear a one state solution is required (the Arab states hosting) and an expansion in Israel's borders. The dividing wall will come down and all will say, 'Peace, Peace!.'

14 December 2010 at 12:36  
Blogger Ariadne said...

AncientBriton

Would that 'sense of history' be from the Stern Gang onwards?
Defence against the excesses of Islam is one thing but an “apartheid state” is another.


One question is there and it's pretty puerile. The Bible even has Jews in it and that pre-dates the British murder of Stern.

Puttting inverted commas around "apartheid state" doesn't mitigate the lie and the phrase isn't embedded in a question. Why lie?

A rather lengthy post from me on the apartheid libel has disappeared.

14 December 2010 at 12:41  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

Ariadne,

My initial remark was intended as an ironic comment against David Cameron's sense of the history of Israel.

I read your post with interest before it disappeared. The reference to apartheid state" was not mine but Sir Gerald Kaufman's which I quoted to make my point.

I am aware that the Bible has Jews in it. So was Jesus who had much to say about the old law but we best not get into that.

Peace be with you.

14 December 2010 at 13:14  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Ancient Briton,

His Grace has checked, and no posts have 'disappeared' from this thread.

And he has no idea why any might have disappeared from any other.

14 December 2010 at 13:21  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

Thank Your Grace.
The piece referred to was a long quote of a published justification of Israel's position. Ironic that it should disappear without trace, rather like a house in the wrong place!

14 December 2010 at 13:31  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Ancient Briton,

Do you mean this:

Ariadne has left a new comment on your post "Gerald Kaufman: The Coalition is complicit in Isra...":

It isn't very creditable in an "Ancient Briton" to be antisemitic.

Myths & Facts Online
Human Rights in Israel and the Territories
By Mitchell G. Bard

-----------------------------------
Israel is one of the most open societies in the world. Out of a population of 6.7 million, about 1.3 million — 20 percent of the population — are non-Jews (approximately 1.1 million Muslims, 130,000 Christians and 100,000 Druze).1

Arabs in Israel have equal voting rights; in fact, it is one of the few places in the Middle East where Arab women may vote. Arabs currently hold 8 seats in the 120-seat Knesset. Israeli Arabs have also held various government posts, including one who served as Israel's ambassador to Finland and the current deputy mayor of Tel Aviv. Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior, the first Arab citizen to become chief executive of a key government ministry. Ariel Sharon's original cabinet included the first Arab minister, Salah Tarif, a Druze who served as a minister without portfolio. An Arab is also a Supreme Court justice.

Arabic, like Hebrew, is an official language in Israel. More than 300,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools. At the time of Israel's founding, there was one Arab high school in the country. Today, there are hundreds of Arab schools.2

In 2002, the Israeli Supreme Court also ruled that the government cannot allocate land based on religion or ethnicity, and may not prevent Arab citizens from living wherever they choose.2a

The sole legal distinction between Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel is that the latter are not required to serve in the Israeli army. This is to spare Arab citizens the need to take up arms against their brethren. Nevertheless, Bedouins have served in paratroop units and other Arabs have volunteered for military duty. Compulsory military service is applied to the Druze and Circassian communities at their own request.

Some economic and social gaps between Israeli Jews and Arabs result from the latter not serving in the military. Veterans qualify for many benefits not available to non-veterans. Moreover, the army aids in the socialization process.

On the other hand, Arabs do have an advantage in obtaining some jobs during the years Israelis are in the military. In addition, industries like construction and trucking have come to be dominated by Israeli Arabs.

Although Israeli Arabs have occasionally been involved in terrorist activities, they have generally behaved as loyal citizens. During the 1967, 1973 and 1982 wars, none engaged in any acts of sabotage or disloyalty. Sometimes, in fact, Arabs volunteered to take over civilian functions for reservists. During the outbreak of violence in the territories that began in September 2000, Israeli Arabs for the first time engaged in widespread protests with some violence.

The United States has been independent for almost 230 years and still has not integrated all of its diverse communities. Even today, 60 years after civil rights legislation was adopted, discrimination has not been eradicated. It should not be surprising that Israel has not solved all of its social problems in only 57 years.

[Now 62 years. The "apartheid" propaganda has whiskers]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html

14 December 2010 at 13:41  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

Yes Your Grace. If only those who have lost their homes were so lucky. Oops!

14 December 2010 at 13:47  
Blogger Ariadne said...

AncientBriton

The "Stern Gang" crack was yours. was it not?

Your 13.31 post:

No copyright was infringed by my use of the material and the piece referred to Israeli law, not "Israel's position". And yes, Jews' houses in Israel are demolished all the time and Arabs' houses are not. I take it your reference was not only to Shoreham-by-Sea, in this thread.

Your comment timed at 12.13 does not reflect reality. Perhaps you'd care to read some history in easy stages. I say "easy stages" because of the immense complexity of the subject, not to suggest some incapacity on your part. The "Palestine Facts" site is a treasury of links and the Jewish Virtual Library also deals in fact.

14 December 2010 at 13:50  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Your Grace, thank you for finding that post.

14 December 2010 at 13:52  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Mr Netanyahu’s indestructible belief in Israel, so admired by Mr Cameron, necessitates the building of a camp to house non-Jewish illegal immigrants to prevent them diluting the Jewish nature of the country. As Mr Netanyahu says, ‘There is a swelling wave threatening Israeli jobs, a wave of illegal migrants that we must stop because of the harsh implications for Israel’s character.’

Would that Mr Cameron, or indeed anyone in the Conservative Party or the House of Commons, had an indestructible belief in this country and its character.

14 December 2010 at 14:02  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

Yes Ariadne the Stern "crack" was mine in placing a marker for Mr Cameron's analysis.
Of course it is a complex situation needing people of vision to look forward rather than dwell in the past, as the people of Northern Ireland discovered.

14 December 2010 at 14:12  
Blogger Ariadne said...

AncientBriton

Israel has looked forward since 1993 and indeed since 1948 and 1920 without any reciprocity from those who wish to end the Jewish state. Israel has had no wish and no intention to do other than live in peace with Arab neighbours. But like any other state Israel has to protect her citizens, even against the worst possible neighbours.

Northern Ireland is not analogous since no NI terrorists wished to drive out mainland Britons and take over the mainland.

14 December 2010 at 14:54  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Mr Kaufmans stance makes little sense to me , John Mann was also on the radio this week condeming antisemitism .
I rather wish a dove of peace could be found for the country and its neighbours , alas it seems to shot on one side by modern american weapons and on the other by home made rockets and stones .
Perhaps when they do we can all go on nice holidays again .
I dont wish to trivialise history or even ancient history , but I often wonder if they even turned swords into ploughshares they would just carry on lobbing them at one another , or the marxists would at any rate.
I take it hes not a Labour friend of Israel then , although I fail to see how the marxists are either .

14 December 2010 at 16:44  
Blogger D. Singh said...

From a snippet somebody has sent to me.

Luke 21:29 “Then He spoke to them a parable: ‘Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.’” The fig tree is Israel and therefore all the trees are other nations. The question then becomes which nations was He referring to?

The answer comes from the comparison with the fig tree; it was dried and then sprouted again. Israel was dried for many years and then came back to be a nation. It would appear therefore that Jesus was referring to other nations close to Israel which would also be reborn. What is astounding to discover is that all of the countries that border Israel came back to be independent nation states around the same time as Israel.
Lebanon

Following World War I, France acquired a mandate over the northern portion of the former Ottoman Empire province of Syria. The French separated out the region of Lebanon in 1920, and granted this area independence in 1943.

Jordan

Following World War I and the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, the UK received a mandate to govern much of the Middle East. Britain separated out a semi-autonomous region of Transjordan from Palestine in the early 1920s, and the area gained its independence in 1946; it adopted the name of Jordan in 1950.

Syria

Following World War I, France acquired a mandate over the northern portion of the former Ottoman Empire province of Syria. The French administered the area as Syria until granting it independence in 1946.

Egypt

Following the completion of the Suez Canal in 1869, Egypt became an important world transportation hub, but also fell heavily into debt. Ostensibly to protect its investments, Britain seized control of Egypt’s government in 1882, but nominal allegiance to the Ottoman Empire continued until 1914. Partially independent from the UK in 1922, Egypt acquired full sovereignty with the overthrow of the British-backed monarchy in 1952.

These countries, like Israel, did not exist as independent countries until 1943 and after. They were simply parts of the Ottoman Empire and then parts of the British Empire or a colony of the French. Their birth around the birth of Israel strengthens the significance of 1948.

Oh, there is one more correlation: the Balfour Declaration 1917; the same year that the first avowedly atheist state came into being, the USSR.

God, it seems to me, has His schedule.

But one last question; how long is a generation? ‘The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away’.

Psalm 90 v10

1948 + 70 = 2018

1948 + 80 = 2028

14 December 2010 at 17:29  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of all the rantings and ravings of the IsraelFirsters commenting here, this was the one that stunned me the most:
"Israel is one of the most open societies in the
world. "
How is it possible for a group so convinced they are smarter than the rest of the world to be quite so brainwashed? Is it enough to be told that if you drink the Coolaid of zionism you are guaranteed to be "special" and then you gulp it all down thankfully?
Are you people BLIND? Bereft of of even the most basic humanity? I pity you.

14 December 2010 at 18:41  
Anonymous John Knox said...

Nothing to do with the London stock exchange of course...

14 December 2010 at 20:42  
Blogger Mr Eman said...

Interesting!

Can I ask if, without biblical justification, the Abrahamic Covenant, the Jewish people had any right to move back to Canaan, to wage a guerilla war against Britain and to unilaterally declare they were an independant state in 1948?

For the best part of 2000 years they were not there. And on their return they were a minority.

Also, what lay behind the Balfour Declaration in 1917, the League of Nations and United Nations support? Anything to do with capitalism and rubbing the Ottoman Empire's noses in it, keeping the Russians out and establishing a liberal democratic state in a very significant strategic location?

Seems to me the four main 'religions' of the world will eventually have a showdown over Israel and Jerusalem.

Islam, Judaism, Christianity and Liberal Capitalism all want a piece of the Holy Land and the Holy City.

14 December 2010 at 21:36  
Anonymous giraffe chenille said...

very interesting read... there's just so much here i didn't know.. thanks for the post

14 December 2010 at 22:25  
Anonymous bluedog said...

GC @ 22.25, read more...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Moyne

15 December 2010 at 00:35  
Blogger D. Singh said...

For 1,800 years, it hardly ever rained in Israel. This was the barren land discovered by Mark Twain. So-called “Palestine” was a wasteland – nobody lived there. There was no indigenous Arab population to speak of. It only came after the Jews came back. Beginning in A.D. 70 and lasting until the early 1900s – about 660,000 days – no rain.

I decided to check this out as best I could and examined the rainfall data for 150 years in Israel beginning in the early 1800s and leading up to the 1960s. What I found was astonishing – increasing rainfall almost every single year – with the heaviest rainfall coming in and around 1948 and 1967.[3]

Then after those many years and just as Isaiah had foretold, Israel was born in one day:

Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth[4] be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, She gave birth to her children, (Isaiah 66:8).

On May 14, 1948 Israel (the fig tree) declared independence and then was ratified as a nation by edict of the United Nations and literally was born in one day. 1948[5] becomes the year by which a generation can be measured against.

15 December 2010 at 07:37  
Blogger Mr Eman said...

D. Singh, not sure your right about the modern state of Israel being born in a day! Zionism dates back many years to the 19th century, emerging a political movement in central and eastern Europe. Indeed, it started as secular movement with little to with God.

The beginnings of the effective rebirth of Israel can probably be dated from 1917. She was in 'labour' for 31 years - not a 'day'. From 1917, and before, there was a steady immigration of Jewish settlers, with land being purchased, although they were still a minority in 1948.

15 December 2010 at 12:23  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Kaufman yet again having his unleavened cake and eating it!

15 December 2010 at 14:26  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Rebirth" of Israel?!?!
The Khazars of Russia, Poland and other European countries displacing/killing/subjugating the native population and declaring "Israel" the land of their ancestors is as plausible an argument as Albanians invading Italy and declaring themselves Etruscan.

15 December 2010 at 16:23  
Blogger Mr Eman said...

Can 'native' folk from Eire move back in and declare Ulster their 'homeland'?

After all, it was a Catholic country before the 'Ignoble Revolution' and the immigration of protestant presbyterians Scotts into the six counties.

15 December 2010 at 17:16  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Mr Eman .... ain't you enough to worry about as it is?

15 December 2010 at 17:31  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gerald Kaufmann Is Grima Wormtongue from Lord of the Rings; Two Towers

15 December 2010 at 17:58  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Mr Eman -- those Scots were the descendants of Irish tribes anyway. The Irish invaded the north of GB so often in the early centuries of its existence ... why do you pick on one reversal and claim a logical argument?

Why not simply welcome your own kith and kin home? ... instead of paying our mutual enemies to destroy all our Celtic people?

15 December 2010 at 19:07  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can’t understand why there are no “war crimes” charges against various Palestinians. There are 101 Palestinians who are REAL war criminals who should be excluded from the UK. Bring those charges & watch Kaufman & co. run around trying to kill the law. If The P’s couldn’t come to London for their rabble rousing & fundraising they would be more than narked. Why isn’t Abu Mazen, who funded the Munich massacre, a wanted war criminal? Etc etc etc…..

15 December 2010 at 19:38  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wonder if there is anything left for Israel to do to demonstrate what a tribal-worshipping ideology spawns:

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/israel-admits-to-stealing-organs-from-dead-palestinians.html

15 December 2010 at 23:51  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gerald Kaufman gloats in the House that the Israelis will be overcome by demographic changes and will be outnumbered by Palestinians. He in effect consedes that Israel is a Democratic state otherwise this could not happen. One could say the same thing applies to this country and indeed western Europe-it will only take longer.

16 December 2010 at 00:05  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The word 'demographic' must be confusing to those who spell "concede" as "consede." It has nothing to do with 'democracy" even though it shares part of the lexical root.
The problem is: can the world wait for Israel to become a democracy (and thus cease to be "Israel"--the apartheid "land for Jews') only by virtue of Palestinians multiplying faster and Jews running away to Germany and the US as they do?
How many more atrocities can the world watch?

16 December 2010 at 04:58  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Another Anonymous (15 December 2010 23:51) with a disgusting, deceitful blood libel.

The Gilad that decent people are interested in has been held for four years by the terrorists of Hamas who committed a crime against humanity by abducting him. While Gilad Shalit has not received a single Red Cross visit terrorists of Hamas are in "sanctuary" with the International Red Cross.

16 December 2010 at 11:04  
Blogger oldmaid said...

Ye Gods, if you'll pardon the expression, but that Kaufman chap likes the sound of his own voice

16 December 2010 at 13:59  
Blogger Mr Eman said...

non mouse

Just trying to make the point that previous homelands can't be claimed in perpetuity. Indeed your point about the Celtic people, who displaced the Picts, supports this.

I'm actually a supporter of the State of Israel, but believe we need to understand better the greviences of their semetic broHters, the Arabs, in how it came into being in 1948. God knows the Philistine people have suffered down the years with land occupied by various Empires.

Past 'homeland' of 2000 years ago is not, in itself, a justification for returning to Canaan, initially through illegal immigration, then a guerilla war against Britain and finally a unilateral declaration of independence. The greatest argument seems to be Biblical, but the Zionist movement is secular in character. There is also an issue about whether the Abramic covenant has superseded - and christians themselves, let alone Judaism, are divided on this.

Israel is now an established state - not recognised by everyone, but it is now a fact. I doubt whether there can be a resolution given Christions, Jews and Muslims want Jerusalem, as does liberal democacrats (another 'religion').

Time and God's provinance will tell!

Oh, and Osman - I think this is the greatest historical challenge facing the world today. It's been rumbling for centuries, since the rise of Islam.

16 December 2010 at 15:01  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Decent people" cannot condone war crimes--only brainwashed, tribe-worshipping sheeple do.
Oy, vey, "blood libel"--tight...like Mavi Marmara.
Those who have two neurons left to rub together better try to wake up and become human again--if possible:
http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/gilad-atzmon-watch-some-isolated-voices-of-jewish-reason.html

16 December 2010 at 15:22  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Blair, Brown, Cameron and Clegg are all guilty of war crimes by waging illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. War crimes trial NOW! Bring our boys home.

16 December 2010 at 15:25  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Mr.Eman @ 15.01 - ''Osman'' ... do you mean me? (I'm no damned Turk!) My reference was to your comments about Ulster & Ireland, and NOT about Israel.

16 December 2010 at 16:02  
Anonymous berserker-nkl said...

Would Mr or Mrs Anonymous please let me in to the secret of legal wars?

Where are they? How is a war legal?

On the main subject of the post: the scandal of the last fifty years has been the treatment of Palestinian refugees in the ghettos of Arab lands - their brothers gave them no help at all. In fact in the Lebanon they were not allowed to vote etc. Hence Fatah.

And who keeps the Palestinians afloat - not their fellow Arab states but the Israelis, America and the EU.

16 December 2010 at 19:16  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Israel is now an established state - not recognised by everyone, but it is now a fact."

Don't take too much comfort in this "fact."
So was the Third Reich. An "established state" and a "fact."

16 December 2010 at 23:16  
Blogger Crusader said...

berserker-nkl

How can you comment without an understanding of a just and legal war?

For goodness sake, Google it! It's a well known and established right and, some would say, an obligation.

Did countless people give their lives for such as you pontificating as you enjoy the liberty purchased for you by bloddshed? Or are you a weak, so called 'pacifist' relying on others to preserve your freedom?

17 December 2010 at 15:09  
Blogger Crusader said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

17 December 2010 at 15:10  
Blogger Ariadne said...

The subject of His Grace's post was lying Muslim Arab propaganda - and its opposite.

Arabs had no country before WWI and have been given far more than they use with justice and reason.
Arab countries' treatment of the refugees they drove out in 1948 is a disgrace we pay for. We finance the murder of Jews as long as Muslim Arab terrorists appropriate the aid.

Jewish refugees bereaved and expelled by Arabs since 1948 have no dynastic refugee status. Like all other refugees apart from those who now claim the name "Palestinian", Jewish refugees have been absorbed, largely by Israel. It is an outrage that Arabs have this ludicrous dynastic status. A newborn can be a refugee from an armistice over 60 years old.

I advise people to read Efraim Karsh's Palestine Betrayed but those who prefer the Arab fantasia will no doubt carry on with their deceits and hatreds.

17 December 2010 at 21:44  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

considering we offered the arab league palestine as a reward for helping us in the war, along with two other fractions, i would say in part we have caused this mess anyway.

maybe if we had pulled everyone out of this place, and bombed the place rather than japan the world would be a much safer place to live in.

the jesuit black pope must love all of this futile fighting, look how he rewarded knight of malta blair, over a million dead iraq.

http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/bellringers_corner/vital_articles/news.php?q=66d7d01c5c96548f610c0d0682b2f176

you only have to scroogle jew v zionist to see the problem, the same with islam.

if you read deep enough, the jesuit and zionazi are one and the same thing, the pope sold out all the world with his deal to hitler, they know no shame, they play to win at all costs.

17 December 2010 at 22:28  
Blogger Crusader said...

Don't be ridiclous Anonymous!

Did Blessed Pope John Paul II sell out when he went to Poland and told the people "Do not be afraid"?

Your historical understanding of the Venerable Pope Pious XII is seriously flawed too. Do take the time to examine his actions rather than regurgitate malign propaganda.

Is Benedict XVI wrong in offering the hand of friendship to Islam and Judaism?

18 December 2010 at 12:16  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

have you ever listened to malachai martin, on the desecrations that jp2 allowed, his crooked bent cross, his chair with the upside down cross?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVMkceYOkWk

He was one of the respected exorcists in the church.

there is nothing wrong in peace and unity between people of all walks of life we are all gods children are we not?

you do know the age of consent in the vatican state? 12.
google it.

we do not call the crusades anymore we look for wmd while killing a million or so in iraq.
to save their souls, dead but free.

18 December 2010 at 16:04  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

Ariadne,
If you are still following this thread I would be grateful for your comments on a Christmas message from the COEXIST Foundation, partly reproduced here because of space constraints:
"Today Bethlehem is surrounded by an 8 metre high separation wall, dwarfing the Berlin Wall which stood at a mere 3.65 metres. Built by the Israeli occupation forces it has been condemned by the International Court of Justice who found that "the construction of the wall, and its associated régime, are contrary to international law". In other words the wall is illegal, yet it exists, and grows.

No-one can enter Bethlehem without going through one of the 69 military checkpoints and showing their ID’s and necessary permits. Border guards tend to make up the rules as they go along and checkpoints can be closed without warning. If Jesus had been born in Bethlehem today the 3 wise men would have had to queue like cattle for several hours to get through a checkpoint, had their hands scanned, been searched, and quite possibly turned away as the gold, frankincense and myrrh they carried would be highly questionable.

Should the labouring mother of a present day Jesus require assistance in her childbirth, she would find that obtaining medical treatment is particularly problematic for pregnant Palestinian women about to give birth as the delivery date is largely unpredictable. Often Palestinians are only allowed to travel on foot - not by car - and they have to use old and unmaintained roads. The checkpoints are only open by day, so a night time problem has to wait. The permits given are only valid for one or two days, therefore the women must constantly renew their permits, and as a consequence, in some instances, mothers have entered labor and given birth at checkpoints because they did not have up-to-date permits. Between the years 2000 and 2006, more than 68 Palestinian women gave birth at Israeli checkpoints. Of these, 35 women miscarried, and five died in childbirth.

In the Bethlehem area alone there are 19 illegal settlements taking valuable land from local Palestinian families and choking communities. The wall isolates 25% of Palestinian agricultural land and the farmers have to obtain permits on a daily basis and pass through checkpoints to access their own fields. A modern shepherd watching the stars as portent to a famous birth would have either had his land confiscated, or might possibly have to wait until morning to obtain a permit to cross into Bethlehem."

19 December 2010 at 00:06  
Blogger Ariadne said...

AncientBriton, the COEXIST Foundation has been spreading misinformation in New York.

I don't intend to read further into your propaganda. The odd word spotted as I dropped my eye down the page shows your post as not worth my time.

You might find it beneficial to read a response to a similar orgy of hate and untruth from Christmas 2007.

19 December 2010 at 21:02  
Anonymous Huldah said...

AncientBriton

In Ariadne's temporary absence I'll comment COEXIST's document.

Had 5 Arab armies not attacked the fledgling Jewish state in 1948 there would be no wall in Bethlehem.

Had Egyptian aggression not encouraged Israel's Arab neighbours to attack Israel in 1967 there would be no wall in Bethlehem.

Had the Oslo Peace Accord not handed Bethlehem to militant Palestinian leaders intent upon Israel's demise (against the pleas of Bethlehem's then mayor) there would be no wall in Bethlehem - and there would still be a great many Arab Christians living there.

Had Palestinian militants not taken over the houses and places of worship of Bethlehem's Christian community in the 2001 intifada, including the Church of the Nativity which was subject to the most disgusting desecration by Muslim terrorists, using the premises to snipe into Israeli living rooms and bedrooms in the suburb Giloh - there would be no wall in Bethlehem.

For decades Israel put up with the bomb-making factories, terrorist bases and intimidation of Christians in Bethlehem which led to Israeli civilians being murdered in Israeli buses, pizza parlours and markets. Now they have made that much more difficult by preventing Palestinian terrorists simply walking or driving into Israel proper.

That of course has a knock on effect of inconveniencing Palestinians. Inconvenience is better than murder.

It is time for western Jew-hating organisations - including Christian ones - to (a) own up to the anti-semitism that underpins their hatred of Israel and (b) pay the Palestinians the compliment of admitting that they have some agency over events in their region.

20 December 2010 at 10:24  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Huldah, thank you for responding so truthfully.

I did in fact make a fairly terse response to that hate-filled post of AncientBriton's but once again my post did not appear.

20 December 2010 at 11:30  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

Ariadne,
Your conception of truth is very one-sided. You describe my invitation to comment as "hate-filled" which is odd since you said in your [once more disappeared!] reply to my request that you couldn't be bothered to read it:
"AncientBriton, the COEXIST Foundation has been spreading misinformation in New York. I don't intend to read further into your propaganda. The odd word spotted as I dropped my eye down the page shows your post as not worth my time. You might find it beneficial to read a response to a similar orgy of hate and untruth from Christmas 2007."
To describe my request for information as propaganda is telling in itself. Your response is as offensive as the treatment of pregnant women described. According to COEXIST, it is charity "which works to promote understanding and respect between Jews, Christians and Muslims through education, dialogue and research" which is at variance with your description.

Hulda, thank you for a more considered response although I would have preferred something more relevant to the question. Your final paragraph is unworthy of further comment.

20 December 2010 at 13:00  
Blogger Ariadne said...

AncientBriton:

You describe my invitation to comment as "hate-filled"

I described your post as hate-filled and it is.

20 December 2010 at 13:14  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

Ariadne please explain and provide evidence for your extremely offensive 'hate-filled' smear.

20 December 2010 at 13:32  
Blogger Ariadne said...

And now I've tracked down your hate site, AncientBriton.

Not the COEXIST Foundation but a Muslim Arab propaganda site,

Here it is in all its loathesomeness:

http://www.shoah.org.uk/2010/12/18/is-santa-in-bethlehem-today/

20 December 2010 at 13:36  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

With permission Your Grace I am re-submitting my final comment which mysteriously failed to appear.
***
Ariadne, if you could try and be a little more rational and stop hurling abuse it would help me to understand your problem.
There is no secret about my site, you have only to click on 'AncientBriton' to see that.
I have never heard of the shao site you try to discredit me with by implying a link. If you have looked at my site with an open mind you should have concluded that I am not an Islamist sympathiser. I am a Christian who is as alarmed as many Jews about the Islamicification of Europe. What I was trying to establish was whether there was a legitimate grievance that might be exploited by extremists. In that regard I was disappointed to see the article I quoted in the site you referred to. I received the article in an email which bore the COEXIST logo. I don't know how my address was obtained but took the precaution of checking the site which didn't appear to me be a Muslim propaganda site given its constituents.
I regret your shameful allegations but see no value in continuing unhelpful correspondence. As a concerned Christian I simply offer the other cheek. Shalom

20 December 2010 at 15:06  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

Ariadne I've tried three times to give you my response but none has appeared so I shall try a different approach.
I was unaware of the site you highlighted. Anyone can assess my credentials by clicking above on 'AncientBriton'. By comparison you operate in the shadows with no link. All your accusations against me are false. It should be obvious from my site that I have no Islamist leanings, quite the contrary. I was concerned to see the article on which I invited your comments reproduced in your link. I received it in an email bearing the COEXIST logo! I hope that answers your false allegations. Shalom

20 December 2010 at 15:28  
Blogger Ariadne said...

A rose is a rose is a rose, AncientBriton.

It isn't hard to identify antisemitic propaganda from hate sites whatever label it puts on itself.

You posted the filth but seem unable to take responsibility for that.

20 December 2010 at 15:45  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

His Grace will try:

With permission Your Grace I am re-submitting my final comment which mysteriously failed to appear.
***
Ariadne, if you could try and be a little more rational and stop hurling abuse it would help me to understand your problem.
There is no secret about my site, you have only to click on 'AncientBriton' to see that.
I have never heard of the shao site you try to discredit me with by implying a link. If you have looked at my site with an open mind you should have concluded that I am not an Islamist sympathiser. I am a Christian who is as alarmed as many Jews about the Islamicification of Europe. What I was trying to establish was whether there was a legitimate grievance that might be exploited by extremists. In that regard I was disappointed to see the article I quoted in the site you referred to. I received the article in an email which bore the COEXIST logo. I don't know how my address was obtained but took the precaution of checking the site which didn't appear to me be a Muslim propaganda site given its constituents.
I regret your shameful allegations but see no value in continuing unhelpful correspondence. As a concerned Christian I simply offer the other cheek. Shalom

20 December 2010 at 16:02  
Blogger Ariadne said...

AncientBriton, the abuse is yours. You posted antisemitic propaganda from a hate site.

Emerson presented a snippet from the Persian poet Hafez thus:

“Fooled thou must be, though wisest of the wise:
Then be the fool of virtue, not of vice.”

20 December 2010 at 16:14  
Blogger Ladyhihi said...

I was unaware of the site you highlighted. Anyone can assess my credentials by clicking above on 'AncientBriton'. By comparison you operate in the shadows with no link. All your accusations against me are false. It should be obvious from my site that I have no Islamist leanings, quite the contrary. I was concerned to see the article on which I invited your comments reproduced in your link. I received it in an email bearing the COEXIST logo! I hope that answers your false allegations.

20 December 2010 at 16:38  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Ladyhihi/AncientBriton!

Get sense. My comment at 16:14 - the Hafez words seem to be an overestimate of your decency.

You post hate, hate, hate and you're all "me, me, me".

Are you a pagan?

20 December 2010 at 17:23  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

To whomever may be concerned.

I have resolved not to respond further to Ariadne's poisonous posts but in the interests of clarity the post from 'Ladyhihi' has been planted to discredit me by somehow linking her (?) copied comment to me.
There are dark forces at work here.

20 December 2010 at 17:47  
Anonymous What's in a name said...

Same old hate debate on Cranmer, eh. No reason, no compassion... No change, then.

You support the Sodom and Gomorrah that is Israel (75% of whom are non-believers according to polls), created and maintained by atheist terrorists backed by 'spiritual' leaders who regard non-Jews as "dogs, rats, snakes" (Ovadiah Yosef, Shas Party, welcomed in 10 Downing St by Mr Blair)...


Yet someone such as Gerald Kaufman - who, by the way, was once a friend to a string of Israeli PMs going back to Ben Gurion (!) - who can see beyond racial and religious divides and recognise the plight of Palestinians beyond the Zionist propaganda, akin to that of Israelites in previous eras... This man becomes a "self-hating Jew" and a "Hamas representative"??

Are you followers of Christ, the "Lamb of God"? Really? Where is your mercy and compassion, or is that something you believe God reserves for 'elect' such as yourselves, leaving the rest of His Creation by the wayside?

Doesn't Mr Kaufman show true compassion and solidarity with the oppressed, while you have preferred to walk with the oppressor?

This site essentially attracts racists and other haters who regard religion not as a matter of Faith but as a matter of tribe. So much righteous indignation, so much rationalising of entrenched prejudice, and all this in the name of Christ! How sick and depraved...

Rather, you are devotees of Lucifer's Pauline (Sauline) pagan blashpemy movement. Worshippers (at pagan altars) of crosses, and of idols to human blood sacrifice. Look up the "cult of Mithra" some day(if you dare).

Your religion has been totally compromised long ago and you are living a lie. Keep telling yourselves that Christ (rather than God) is your salvation, that Christ (rather than God) forgives all... Keep following Paul "we needn't worry about the Law" the Apostle and ignore the Commandments. Keep loving your neighbour - as long as he's Christian... Or Jewish-Zionist... Or even outright atheist!

Keep hating muslims, naturally.

Black are your hearts.

27 December 2010 at 08:23  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear All,

There are over 150 UN Resolutions on Palestine. Even the US Government does not accept the legitimacy of settlements, nor does the International Court in the Hague. Unfortunately the current Israeli Government does not wish to abide by the internationally agreed Road Map (where she declared her intention to accept a Palestinian State and end settlements).

Thank you and God bless.

25 February 2011 at 19:26  

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