Saturday, January 08, 2011

A Review: Islamophobia and Anti-Muslim Hate Crime: UK case studies 2010



A guest contributon by Libertyphile which merits attention. This report has had very little coverage. Andrew Gilligan gave it a mention, as did Harry’s Place and it was reviewed at Left Foot Forward.

This publication is likely to be thrust in the face of the new All Party Parliamentary Group on Islamophobia, and for that reason, it merits a little analysis.

And perhaps Exeter University should be taken to task for allowing its name to be associated with this kind of political tract.

Islamophobia and Anti-Muslim Hate Crime: UK case studies 2010 - An introduction to a ten year Europe-wide research project By Robert Lambert and Jonathan Githens-Mazer. Published by European Muslim Research Centre (EMRC), University of Exeter.

This is a political report. It is about...

...blaming the British Government, the media, and the War on Terror for being the major causes of anti-Muslim hate crime.

...promoting the interests of so-called traditional Muslim organisations in an attempt to hijack the issue of anti-Muslim hate crime to promote their worldview at the expense of other Muslim voices and views.

...attacking Muslims and organisations that don’t meet the approval of the Muslim organisations behind the EMRC.

...ignoring any Muslim beliefs or practices as a factor in anti-Muslim hate-crime and Islamophobia.

(1) What is anti-Muslim hate crime?

The authors are at great pains to define anti-Muslim hate crime as something different and separate from hate crime inspired by Islamophobia, an irrational fear of Islam.

Many of the Muslims surveyed in the course of the EMRC’s work have been attacked because they were perceived as terrorists or terrorist sympathisers. Their attackers often made this very clear. This means they were not attacked because of their religion. Islam itself is not involved.

The authors claim that the British Government and the media have triggered this violence through the misconceived War on Terror.

“...it was the prosecution and presentation of the war on terror by government and media.... that prompted an outbreak of anti-Muslim street violence …” (p53)

And they say:

“… The al-Qaeda related threat has been the subject of vast, unprecedented expenditure over the last decade and yet it has not diminished.”

“In contrast, the threat of terrorism and political violence to Muslim communities and other minority communities from violent extremist nationalists has grown steadily ….” (p78) [emphasis added]

Thus, they believe that Muslims face “terrorism and political violence” akin to the terrorism and political violence of al-Qaeda from the likes of the EDL and the BNP.

(2) Extremist nationalists are the major problem (or are they?)

The authors believe the Government must commit as much effort to defeating extremist nationalism as it does to defeating al-Qaeda and international terrorism.

“…. we argue that the government should treat both terrorist threats with equal importance and in the same way.” (p79)

“In both instances small fringe groups and individuals seek to resort to political violence and terrorist tactics as a compensation for their impotence in mainstream politics.” (p97) [emphasis added]

So the EDL and the BNP and their followers are to be compared with an international organisation funded by billions of dollars that has violence on a large scale as its deliberate policy and that aims amongst other things to overthrow governments and to destroy a whole nation state, Israel, and that tries to get its hands on biological or nuclear weapons.

The report goes on, perhaps unintentionally, to throw a different light on the issue.

“The majority of anti-Muslim hate crimes in the UK do not appear to be committed by members or supporters of the EDL, BNP or their sister organisations ….”

“…. there is clear evidence that many anti-Muslim hate crimes are motivated by an identical analysis of ‘radical Islam’ or ‘Muslim terrorists’ to that which informs EDL, BNP and extremist nationalist thinking.” (p97)

We now learn the main perpetrators of anti-Muslim hate crime aren’t supporters of the EDL and the BNP and “radical Islam” is a factor. What is this radical Islam? The report does not explain.

(3) Origins

The authors portray 9/11 as the start and the War on Terror as the underlying cause of anti-Muslim hate crime.

“…. the deterioration since 9/11 has been so marked that they recall the 1990s as a bygone time when Islam was widely respected and mosques were no more likely to be attacked than any other religious building in the UK.” (p42)

A contributor to the report, Chris Allen, an Islamophobia expert, unintentionally shows this might be misleading. He discusses his introduction to Islamophobia in 1997 shortly after the publication of the Commission on British Muslims & Islamophobia’s report, Islamophobia: a challenge for us all, four years before 9/11. He says:

“.... real people were being routinely prejudiced, discriminated and vilified just because of their religion or how they look? Why, more worryingly, were we allowing people to become victims of crime, abuse, assault and more ….? “

Back in 1997, the report spoke of how “Islamophobia’ …. is part of everyday life in modern Britain ”. ( p56)

According to this expert Islamophobia was making Muslims the “victims of crime, abuse, assault” well before 9/11. He offers no explanation of why this was happening but it is reasonable to suppose that Muslims at that time were not especially perceived as terrorists or terrorist sympathisers.

(4) Glaring Omissions

It truly is amazing that a report examining anti-Muslim hate crime and Islamophobia fails to mention Salman Rushdie and the Danish Cartoons. Not one word.

Kenan Malik author of “From Fatwa to Jihad: The Rushdie Affair and its Legacy” which puts the fatwa into perspective and explains the pivotal role it played in Muslim non-Muslim relations especially in the UK gets mentioned, but this is only to attack him for his observation “that after 9/11 only a dozen or so serious physical attacks on British Muslims were clearly evidenced” and questioning the extent to which “a climate of vicious Islamophobia” was a reality in contemporary Britain.

The people behind the EMRC cannot contemplate even for a few milliseconds that these events and others like them have given non-Muslims cause to dislike Islam and mistrust Muslims.

(5) Anti-Muslim Hate Crime

The report provides case material that illustrates the total nastiness of blameless citizens being assaulted in the street or in their homes, and mosques and religious buildings vandalised and attacked in life threatening ways.

You might reasonably expect that after a year in which to produce this massive report the EMRC would give a better account than the one given of the scale of anti-Muslim hate crime and Islamophobia. They might have covered:

What is the trend, who really are the victims and the culprits, what is the breakdown by different types of anti-Muslim hate crime, how does it compare with anti-Semitism and animosity towards immigrants, are the perpetrators caught and how are they punished?

But the account you get is seriously lacking and brief. You get just a few pages. (pp99-104)

There is no analysis of existing statistics and how they might be improved, only a vague dismissal. The complaint is made that anti-Muslim hate crime is probably under reported, which seems likely, and of course it would apply to other victims of hate crime, such as Jews and immigrants.

(5.1) Individuals

No quantification or perspective is given at all on anti-Muslim hate crime against individuals. The report says that interviewing took place. It doesn’t mention how many interviews, how they were carried out or how the respondents were chosen, all standard procedure in professional research, so that the results can be fairly assessed. It simply takes the opportunity to repeat its claim that 9/11 was the turning point.

“The phenomenon of increased suspicion, hostility, bigotry, intimidation and violence towards Muslims in the UK can be traced back to 9/11. In the last twelve months we have interviewed Muslims …. and there is already significant evidence to suggest that 9/11 marks a dramatic and negative shift in attitudes and behaviour towards Muslims.”

…. and again accuse the Government and media.

The terrorist act of 9/11 itself is … insufficient explanation for a discernable rise in anti-Muslim hostility and violence but rather a necessary, explanatory condition.”

“…. Most significant was a majority of mainstream UK political and UK media analysis and reporting that identified the suicide bombers’ motivation as being grounded in Islam or a particular rendition of Islam.” (p99)

Read this quote at least twice and take in its full perversity.

The authors offer no method of dealing with this “problem”. Could it be that all media are subject to a super injunction that forbids any mention of a terrorist’s religion, or any reference they make to religion, or that all such terrorist news must be accompanied by a disclaimer that any Islam referred to is not the real Islam but some other Islam?

It would make reports of the latest Danish cartoon outrage very odd. “Five young men set out to gun down as many people as possible at the office of cartoon publisher: cartoons were not funny!”

(5.2) Mosques and Islamic Centres

The EMRC research shows that between 40-60% of 1600 mosques, Islamic centres and Muslim organisations in the UK have suffered at least one attack since 9/11. Attacks include petrol bombs, assaults on imams, bricks thrown through windows, pigs heads fixed to mosque entrances, death threats, other threatening and abusive messages and vandalism. No breakdown is given.

The authors say at their lowest estimate this is 1000 hate crime attacks on at least 700 Islamic places since 9/11. They could also mention that this is just over 100 attacks a year, two a week throughout the whole country, many of which could be abusive messages or vandalism and concern Mosques that have been in the news for outrageous statements by their imams.

All these figures are based on a survey of 1000 questionnaires. No details of this questionnaire are given. The questions, the method of completion, that would be expected in any professional survey.

This is all you get, these key matters are given barely half a page (see p104) but the authors say they “aim to have a clearer picture by the 11th September 2011”. The 11th September at the time this report was published (November 2010) was a year away.

The deliberate mention of this date beggars belief and signals again the authors fixation with 9/11 and their twisted thinking.

You might also wonder why the EMRC is a 10 year project if there is an urgent anti-Muslim hate crime problem today. It would be better to spend the money spent on the EMRC and the authors on a survey of Muslims carried out by a professional survey organisation such as Gallup (who have a Muslim unit) or Pew.

It would also be instructive to interview in a representative way those who actually commit anti-Muslim hate crime, another notable omission from the EMRC’s work.

(5.3) Never mind the quality feel the width

This fleeting treatment of the central problem is striking contrast to space given to topics that are peripheral or irrelevant.

Immediately following the Mosque survey section there are three pages (compared with the half page on the Mosque survey results) discussing the details of petrol bombs and in particular the use accelerant. Robert Lambert, one of the co-authors, is an ex-policeman, and one might easily think he donated his notebook to the report.

At the beginning of the report we get a three and a half page hagiography of Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, a former leader of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), six times as much space as the Mosque survey.

We get a three page tutorial on Tariq Ramadan’s ideas.

We even get a whole part, Part 5 of the report, 20 pages (a tenth of the entire report, that’s right one tenth!) devoted to a one sided justification of the recent political career of Councillor Lutfur Rahman, the controversial Muslim mayor of Tower Hamlets. What, you wonder, has this to do with anti-Muslim hate crime?

(6) Recommendations

You might expect the final part of the report, Part 6, “Responses and Recommendations” to bring together practical suggestions on dealing with anti-Muslim hate crime and Islamophpobia but it doesn’t.

Instead you get an attack on the previous and current Governments for dealing with the wrong Muslims. It is obsessed with the possible influence of several individuals and the think-tank Policy Exchange and its neo-conservative ideology. The Government should be dealing with the Muslims behind this report.

“…. the previous government sought to delegitimize politically active Muslim organisations…. The motivation for such counter-productive and discriminatory government policy is premised on the negative Policy Exchange analysis of political Islam …. Most notably, in 2009 Hazel Blears severed links with the Muslim Council of Britain .” (p199)

The authors don’t bother to mention why the Government severed links with the MCB. Daud Abdullah, the deputy secretary general of the MCB signed a declaration concerning Palestine supporting violence against foreign forces – which could include British naval personnel. See article here.

Part 6 is divided into three sections: (1) Partnership or Exclusion, covering who the Government should deal with, which takes up 93%, 1940 words; (2) Anti-Muslim Hate Crime: Urgent Government Action, taking up 3%, 61 words; and (3) Anti-Muslim Hate Crime: Urgent Community Action and Funding Needed, 4%, 91 words.

A nice reflection of what this report is really all about.

(7) Who and What

The report makes clear whose agenda it follows “…. We hope that this report will provide evidence to assist our partners in the MCB, The Cordoba Foundation, Forward Thinking and Engage”.

But what do these organisations stand for? Several statements give clues.

“…. the voices of …. Muslims, who do not support assimilation, are silenced or ridiculed’. (p53)

“…. the “integration agenda of the British government is less about addressing terrorism and more about Muslims giving up their Islamic values.” (p194)

“…. they are told …. that Muslims must abandon any notion that Islam informs their politics before they can be accepted.” (p200)

“…. against accommodating ‘traditionalists’ …. appears to mean any seriously practicing Muslim.” (p201)

“…. Islam and strict adherence to Islam pose[s] a threat to the safety, cohesion and well being of communities and countries in Europe.” (p203)

So what are these Islamic values and what does strict adherence to Islam entail? What does a seriously practicing Muslim do and believe?

Should animals be stunned before they are slaughtered? And should halal meat be labelled to say whether or not stunning has taken place.

What do they think about stoning to death for adultery? That is, torturing someone to death. Inayat Bunglawala, a former spokesperson of the MCB and connected with Engage, doesn’t agree with it in the UK but thinks it is OK if people in other countries want it. See here.

Do they agree with the 51% of British Muslims who say a Muslim woman may not marry a non-Muslim? See here.

It should be easy for a man to divorce his wife, but very difficult for a wife to divorce her husband. Muslim women who seek divorce are subjected to an interview process, pressured to remain married and risk losing quite possibly their only financial wealth by being forced to return their dower.

Child custody should always favour the man. Judges in The House of Lords described Sharia rules on child custody as ‘arbitrary and discriminatory’.

Death was too good for Salman Rushdie.

There should be a parallel legal system (Sharia Courts) for Muslims in which women have inferior rights to men, in property division and inheritance for example, and there are no female “judges”. Nearly a quarter of judges in UK courts are female and in magistrate courts it is half.

It is completely forbidded to make or publish a drawing of the Prophet Muhammad and that such activity even by a non-Muslim should be severely punished.

Despite the intense British and European dislike of people in public hiding their face it is just fine for Muslim women to wear the veil.

National exams such as GCSE and A Level should be moved so they don’t clash with Ramadan.

As Islam is a comprehensive system of worship and legislation (Sharia) there is no need for man-made laws at all and all Muslims must work to that end.

Where do seriously practising Muslims stand on the teachings of Syed Mawdudi the founder of Jamaat-e-Islami, the South Asian Islamist party:

“merely believing in God is not enough. Muslims have a sacred duty, wherever you are, in whichever country you live, you must strive to change the wrong basis of government, and seize powers to rule and make laws from those who do not fear God”.

The MCB agrees that it is accurate to say that Mawdudi believed “…. in [an] ideal Islamic state, private and public life would be inseparable. In this respect it would bear “a kind of resemblance to the fascist and communist states” They just don’t like anyone mentioning it. See here.

And regarding practical examples of Islamically informed politics, we have plenty from Iran, Sudan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia...

86 Comments:

Blogger Bred in the bone said...

"a ten year Europe-wide research project"

There is the problem in a nutshell, classing Britain as a Continental Nation State.

Brussels is the problem!

Treasonaphobia :-D

8 January 2011 at 13:18  
Blogger Mr Eman said...

The problem is worldwide - from East to West and North to South, rewgardless of statehood - apart, perhaps from China and other fiercely repressive regimes.

This 'report' would appear to demonstrates the significant decline in academic standards over recent decades. Taking your critique at face value, and I have no reason to doubt your integrity, this 'research' would have failed to achieve a Pass, let alone a 111,at Honours Degree level.

Shody research which will not advance understanding about issues threatening our society today. If anything it will widen the gap.

Sound analysis too of the underlying evil in the Koran, the slavery it subjects it followers too, male and female, through adherence to and application of its tenets.

The challenge is to develop a strategy that not only defeats fanaticism without flaming the fire, if this possible, but also to begin to liberate those it holds in its rituals, incantations and prescribed lifestyle. Of course the latter objective is not permitted in our mulicultural, diverse society where any intrusion on anothers belief system is unacceptable - including satanism.

8 January 2011 at 13:25  
Blogger Roger Pearse said...

Isn't Exeter the same university that sponsored a persecution of the Christian Union a few years back?

This phrase "hate crime"... we need to push back. It doesn't matter a damn, if X commits a crime where Y is the victim, that X hates Y. That's feelings. That's nothing to do with the government. Let X be punished for his crime, not for his opinions. The use of the term "hate crime" is simply a way to punish people for their opinions. And none of these people, funnily enough, belong to the left or its client groups -- which gives the game away.

If we're to criminalise hate, let's criminalise class hate, so beloved of the left, and see if they like it. Why give them a free pass to chill our views -- for that is the purpose of all this, by locking up people who express crudely what half the population feel in a more moderate way -- when they can express anything they like?

And after all, you have to hate people pretty badly to lock them up for holding different political views to yourself. But what else has the left sought to do?

Freedom of speech, freedom of debate, now.

And an end to special privileges for client groups of the left.

8 January 2011 at 13:42  
Blogger oldmaid said...

Mr Eman

The problem is indeed worldwide and in some areas people are waking up to this. In America surprisingly enough.

It would appear the Daily Telegraph sent one of their reporters to interview the man in the film clip, but for some reason they have not seen fit to report this.

It would indeed appear the PC gag is alive and well in the UK...but for how long?

"The problem that we have"

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2011/01/challenge-that-we-have.html

It is well worth a listen

8 January 2011 at 14:13  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One of the authors Robert Lambert surfaced a few years ago in a report by Richard Kerbaj and Dominic Kennedy in The Times:


http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article1875436.ece
Interpol notice urges arrest of Islam TV chief

A man wanted by Interpol for his links to an alleged terrorist organisation has been advising Scotland Yard on countering Muslim extremism, a Times investigation has discovered.

Mohamed Ali Harrath has been the subject of the Interpol red notice since 1992 because of his alleged activities in Tunisia, where he co-founded the Tunisian Islamic Front (FIT).

Tunisia has accused Mr Harrath, the chief executive officer of the Islam Channel in Britain and an adviser to the Scotland Yard Muslim Contact Unit, of seeking help from Osama bin Laden. It says that the FIT wants to establish “an Islamic state by means of armed revolutionary violence”.

Mr Harrath has been convicted in absentia of numerous criminal and terrorism-related offences by Tunisian courts and sentenced to 56 years in prison. Tunisia is an ally of the West in the fight against terrorism but is regarded by critics as a police or one-party state. Its secular Government regards those who advocate an Islamic state as a threat to its stability.

The Times has also learnt that, in evidence before Britain’s Special Immigration Appeals Commission in 2003, an MI5 witness accused the FIT of terrorism activities in France. Mr Harrath denies this, saying his movement was wrongly blamed by the French courts for founding a guerrilla network that held banned military weapons.

No one has ever produced evidence linking Mr Harrath to any terrorist activity. Despite this, he is still the subject of an Interpol red notice — its highest level of alert – as a terrorist suspect and countries are urged to arrest and extradite him. His lawyers have sought to remove the notice but in the meantime this extraordinary state of affairs remains unresolved.

Mr Harrath admitted setting up the FIT but said that it was a “nonviolent political party founded in 1986 to oppose the one-party state in Tunisia”. He stated unequivocally: “We are not extremists and we are not terrorists and we [sic] never been involved in any such activities”. However, he added that “revolution is not [necessarily] a dirty word” and “there is nothing wrong or criminal in trying to establish an Islamic state”.

Despite Mr Harrath being wanted by Interpol, Scotland Yard has appointed him as adviser to its Muslim Contact Unit on preventing extremism and terrorism. Mr Harrath told The Times that he was “regularly consulted in an advisory capacity by the Muslim Contact Unit of the British police for guidance on best practice in relation to counter-terrorism issues and combating extremism”.

The unit’s former head, Robert Lambert, wrote in a letter of support to Mr Harrath that he had made a “key contribution to our efforts to defeat adverse influence of al-Qaeda in the UK”.

The British Government refused a request by the Tunisian Government in 1997 to have him extradited. According to his lawyers, “the UK security services informed Mr Harrath that the UK did not regard him as a threat and that there was no basis for the Tunisian extradition request, which the Tunisian authorities had wholly failed to substantiate”.

8 January 2011 at 14:26  
Blogger srizals said...

Getting British troops out from Muslim countries might help. If that is not possible since proving what a big liar you really are would have to do with one's integrity, stop killing the non-combatants and non-terrorists in lands not of your own!

The terrorists didn't target British soldiers' babies and mothers for God sake! So stop killing theirs and in the process, giving a very bad example to be followed. Or is it already too far too late?

And I would recommend highly of not terrorising people as we ourselves do not like to be terrorised. "Do onto others as they done to you?"

If everything else fails, we can always opt for a better option, put the Muslims in ghettos like the Jews when White Christians are scared of them. Agree? That would be a distinctively civilised and classy style of the West anyway. And let see where we can go from there. More fear or more peace.

8 January 2011 at 14:53  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

For me, the clue to the EMRC’s thinking lies in ‘This means [Muslims] were not attacked because of their religion. Islam itself is not involved.’

The first Muslims to settle here may have been attacked because of the colour of their skin and attacks may then have been provoked by the transformation of British working-class neighbourhoods into little Pakistans and Bangladeshes, but Islam itself must now share the blame for attacks on Muslims. Its encouragement of violence makes it a threat to law and order and its distinction between the pure Muslim and the unclean infidel makes the prospect of integration, let alone assimilation, remote in the extreme.

Far from Islam not being involved, it is its own worst enemy. Thanks to Channel 4’s Undercover Mosque, we know that extremist Islam does not lie forgotten on the pages of the Qur’an, it is preached in mosques. These quotes are from The Observer:

‘You cannot accept the rule of the kafir [non-Muslim] … We have to rule ourselves and we have to rule the others.’

‘Kafir is the worst word that can ever be written, a sign of infidelity, disbelief, filth, a sign of dirt.’

‘God help us in our fight against the kafir, in every field, in every department of life. We beg you to help us fight against the enemies of our religion.’

‘Allah has created the woman deficient.’

‘The time is fast approaching where the tables are going to turn and the Muslims are going to be in the position of being uppermost in strength and, when that happens, people won’t get killed—unjustly.’

With Islam holding such abhorrent views and with its followers growing rapidly in number, anti-Muslim sentiment can only increase as the British come to understand how their whole way of life is threatened by Islam.

8 January 2011 at 14:53  
Blogger Gnostic said...

By all means removing our soldiers from Afghanistan will be a start. Booting radical Islamists out of this country would be an absolute necessity too.

And weren't there children and mothers on the 9/11 planes who were not only terrorised but murdered along with many hundreds of other non-combatants and non-terrorists? Or is it only whitey that gets to carry the blame for killing non-combatants and non-terrorists?

What about the London bombers? Aren't they another good reason Muslims are looked upon with deep suspicion? Or were we just imagining that the target was soft rather than military?

While Islamic nutjobs plot to blow people up the problem will remain. Don't lay all the blame at our door because the atrocities began long ago when Islam attacked Byzantium and it just won't let go until the entire world is rearing its arse to the sky. Or is the global caliphate a myth and Islam is not at war with everyone else in the radical imams keep insisting upon?

8 January 2011 at 15:12  
Anonymous Atlas shrugged said...

Some older people will remember a time when we where being mind controlled into believing that the German people where almost as evil as Hitler himself.

Now that the propaganda has virtually, and the war completely stopped, hardly anyone now believes this.

Some of you will know that I believe that 9/11 was to a vital extent an inside job. I do not believe this because I want to believe it, I believe this to be the case based entirely on the absolutely conclusive evidence that I have be presented with.

Therefore I cannot see this issue in any way other then one great big enormous murderous conspiracy.

On the subject of freedom of speech.

Problem, action, solution, or thesis, anti-thesis. synthesis. It is by this method our own ruling elites are systematically destroying what many may wish to describe as the best parts of western culture, very much including freedom of speech, and of course just about anything else to do with freedom in general.

As Roger Pearse correctly observes the left is being used to again be the thesis.

In other words the left have been mind controlled into creating a serious, seemingly impossible problem.

The reaction is coming, although not as quickly or as violently as our elites would have liked, and have obviously planned for, so they have to go looking for as much violent reaction as they can find, using establishment controlled bodies such as The University of Exeter. While they are very likely also planning another terrorist attack.

Please understand that a massive conspiracy is again at play. A conspiracy which unwittingly or otherwise involves the left almost as much as it does the right. You are being manipulated from the very top, which has always controlled both wings, as well as even more so the middle. In times such as these virtually nothing is how it may logically seem to be.

For if the public still seriously believes that 9/11 was how our ruling elites claims it was, then societies reaction, is as essentially predictable as Monday following Sunday. If it turns out not to be, the establishment will give the reaction as many helping hands as it needs to. Which is until the required reaction is finally seen to have arrived.

At which point the solution will be presented, and so the synthesis will have been successfully created.

Which will be at least one giant step towards a one world dictatorship, the virtual end of Islam as we think we knew it, and all other protestant religious or otherwise organizations.

8 January 2011 at 15:17  
Blogger DP111 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8 January 2011 at 15:27  
Blogger Tambourine Man said...

hey man ... i did latin at skool ... lerned all i needed ... then took up rock n roll ...

amo
amas
amat
amamus
amatis
amant

bout all i lerned at skool ... cool words ... dont member all tey mean but i sing bout them ... i aint too sucesful thou ...

8 January 2011 at 15:28  
Blogger DP111 said...

Modern Day Trojan Horse: The Islamic Doctrine of Immigration
Sam Solomon & Elias Al Maqdisi
ANM Publishers, 2009, 139 pp

Most immigrants from Islamic countries do not come to the West in order to transform free Western countries into semblances of the autocracies or theocracies they have fled from. They seek better living conditions, employment, a better future – but they do so without the intention to change their religion, and this is where things get complicated.

Retaining faith in Islam and Islamic scholars will lead the immigrants to tacitly support the subversive aims of Islamists who have also come to the West, initially as a relatively small fraction of millions of Islamic immigrants. These Islamic leaders and scholars use the Islamic teachings to destroy confidence in Western democracies, and they are astonishingly effective in achieving that aim.

Explaining how this seemingly irrational development can take place requires some history. This first and foremost means the life and conduct of Muhammad, the perfect example for the pious Muslim even today. The authority of Muhammad is absolute in Islam, be it in form of Quranic commands or the examples of conduct recorded in hadith collections, known in Islam as the 'Sunna'. Hijra, immigration, was a key element in Muhammads takeover of Yathrib, today known as Medina.

Unfortunately, the concept of Hijra is not limited in time or space to 7th century Arabia. The command as given is absolute, and remains an obligation on Muslims. One of many hadith quotes Muhammad for this:
I charge you with five of what Allah has charged me with: to assemble, to listen, to obey, to immigrate and to wage Jihad for the sake of Allah.


Thus, immigration is step four out of a five step plan. Sam Solomon elaborates:
So Hijra or migration is binding on all Muslims for numerous reasons; the most important being that migration is preparatory to jihad with an aim and objective of securing victory for Islam and Muslims either in another country or generally as a community.

http://europenews.dk/en/node/38496

Quote: The most important being that migration is preparatory to jihad with an aim and objective of securing victory for Islam and Muslims either in another country or generally as a community.

Muslims, despite being a tiny minority in Britain or Europe, are now the dominant community. First part of the objective is already complete. The second, dominance of the nation, is a foregone conclusion.

8 January 2011 at 15:32  
Blogger DP111 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8 January 2011 at 15:33  
Anonymous len said...

I think the advancement of Islam in this country is a direct result of the de-Christianisation of this Country.
A spiritual vacuum is being filled.

We are reaping what we have sown.

8 January 2011 at 15:50  
Blogger srizals said...

Gnostic,
My God, you still have grudges about Byzantium? Snap out of it, look at it today. They're still there, in different faith of course. Besides, it’s their fault of attacking and threatening the Arabs first, for being overly confident as a World Super Power against mere nomad Bedouins. The Persians too. The Arabs didn’t bully them like nowadays World Super Powers you know. They were more powerful than the Muslims then, as now. But truth is a decisive element in a man’s determination. Liars would hesitate.

You have forgotten Sabra and Shatilla, The 7 days war, bla-bla-bla, all Israel wars (supported by British and the US), and the bloody problem of Palestine caused by British meddling and the lies to the Arab through Lawrence of Arabia. Oh, my, don't let me get all the skeletons out from the closet now. And yet, the slow reacting terrorists decided to terrorise Britain since the day it obeyed its master (former colony) in invading Iraq and Afghanistan. Unless you can give me a date of terror activity before the destructions of Iraq and Afghanistan, you would have proof your theory of Muslims and Islam!

For the hundredth of time, Gnostic, Muslims, most, didn’t consider all White Christians as blood thristy lunatics as Blair and Bush! So grow up! The dozens terrorists that have copied their tormentors ways are not all 1.5 billion Muslims you know. If not, you won’t be getting to even fear the Muslims in this blog. It would be your worst nightmare coming true. Let’s pray that wisdom still prevails in the West. If not, we can’t escape from repeating history now, won’t we? The British and the West had terrorised and destroyed my country for ages. And the British in Malaysia aren’t “specially treated” like would be criminals you know. More are coming as English teachers, sponsored by the kind government of Malaysia! I hope they are not ravaging mad Islamophobes!

As for radical dreams by radicals, get your powerful radicals under control first before asking us to control our puny radicals. Let have them all behind bars, locked away until they repent, starting with war criminals of your civilisation, which had been supporting the brutalities on Muslims and they themselves, killing innocent Muslims, let say from 1948 till the present? What say you? Attacking other nations without provocation is wrong and illegal act of terror anyway, agreeable? Why not just kill the terrorists that killed the innocents, from all side? Killers and leaders of killers should not be granted ‘life’ for the death of so many.

I wonder what is the perception of the English then, to the Irish when the IRA started to bomb London and etc? Same reactions, or slightly different? Care to share?

8 January 2011 at 16:08  
Blogger Span Ows said...

len said...

We are reaping what we have sown.


Not quite, you are reaping what has been sown 'in your name'. It is another facet and direct result of "liberal leftie do-gooding" that has seen the collapse of decent education, the change from police "force" to police "service", the handing of sovereign powers to an unelected clique etc to name just three other phases of the same ongoing disaster.

8 January 2011 at 16:11  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For Islamic sources of finance for Exeter University's Islamic propaganda, suggest see: - pp 28-29, and pp 103-109 of:

http://www.socialcohesion.co.uk/files/1238334247_1.pdf

8 January 2011 at 16:38  
Blogger LeucipottomySpoon82 said...

@ Roger Pearse re Christianity and Exeter University:

Indeed, here is an article by His Grace on that very topic:

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2006/11/christian-union-students-persecuted.html

8 January 2011 at 16:40  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

Thank you for that analysis Your Grace. Thank God someone is prepared to stand up to intimidation.

Consider the outcry there would have been if those sentenced for grooming children for sexual gratification had been reversed with non-Muslims targeting Muslim girls. I suspect it would be similar to recent demonstration in Pakistan.

Islamophobia is a quack idea designed to avoid criticism. It is not Muslims nor Islam that people dislike, it is a system that gives rise to the killings in Iraq and Egypt, simply for being Christian. Even their own are not spared, especially Muslim women who step out of line -
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8ckmh_five-pakistani-women-buried-alive-i_news

Every atrocity is blamed on extremists but that charge doesn't hold up after witnessing the rose-petal praise showered on the body-guard for murdering the person he was paid to shield.

Out of interest, if the sexual predators of children were dealt with under Sharia law, what would have been the likely outcome?

8 January 2011 at 16:53  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Gnostic @ 15:12, & Mr.Eman, DP111/others:

It is as you say; and it is as Bred in the bone suggests too, a problem exacerbated by 'a Britain held captive within 'Europe'.

The growing problem on our streets is caused, not by the 'right' but by the 'left's' continued refusal to acknowledge the opinion of the vast majority of the indigenous British public.

It's been a long time coming, but it was ALWAYS going to end in civil-strife and bloodshed.

''Cheek-turning'' is sooo last year; the 'new black' is likely to be claret!

8 January 2011 at 16:59  
Blogger pounce_uk said...

Sirzels wrote:
"My God, you still have grudges about Byzantium? Snap out of it, look at it today. They're still there, in different faith of course. Besides, it’s their fault of attacking and threatening the Arabs first, for being overly confident as a World Super Power against mere nomad Bedouins.

Hi Sirzels, Its me pounce the former muslim answering one of your revisionist history posts again.

I think you should digest a few half decent history books (Note I don't recommend the bBCs horrible histories) and while your at it read up on the greatest general ever, A certain Mr Belisarius who with the minimum equipment and men time and time again defeated the Persians who like the 300 were outnumbered 100/1000/10000 to 1. It was his tactic which won the day, tactics which saw him reconquer Rome and Africa for the Holy Roman empire. It was his tactics which the Byzantine Empire used in which to keep at bay the Turks until 1068 Which is where General Romulus lost his mind and handed over the whole of Southern Europe to Islam.

8 January 2011 at 17:00  
Blogger srizals said...

Ancient Briton said, "if the sexual predators of children were dealt with under Sharia law"

Well, Ancient Briton, then the world would be free from UnChristian Western White Caucassian paedophiles and unpious Jewish porn industry elites! Great?

8 January 2011 at 17:05  
Blogger pounce_uk said...

Sirzels wrote:
"Getting British troops out from Muslim countries might help. If that is not possible since proving what a big liar you really are would have to do with one's integrity, stop killing the non-combatants and non-terrorists in lands not of your own!

Lets see the Uk has troops in how many Islamic countries.......1 Afghanistan.
Which funny enough is the dame country that Turkey has troops in? As for not killing non combatatents in lands not of our own. The Turks have killed many more innocents (Including Muslims) than every western nation combined. I mean you have heard about the Armenian genocide. Something the turks are still doing to the Kurds and little girls in Western Europe.

As I keep telling you as an ex muslim I know what is said behind closed doors about Christians,Jews and apostates. So why don't you do us all a favour and play the victim card in your bloody country.

8 January 2011 at 17:07  
Blogger srizals said...

The Grreat General Romulus was a cuckoo? That's new to me pounce_uk. Thanks, will look it up.

8 January 2011 at 17:08  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

srizals, making gratuitous assertions doesn't answer the question so what is your point, other than propaganda and a brownie point in a warped idea of salvation?

8 January 2011 at 17:15  
Blogger pounce_uk said...

Sirzels wrote:
Well, Ancient Briton, then the world would be free from UnChristian Western White Caucassian paedophiles and unpious Jewish porn industry elites! Great?

Jewish porn industry? Not that old line again. Do a google on which countries download the most porn I think you will find that pure Islamic ones come out top here is what the news had to say on the subject last june:
They may call it the "Land of the Pure," but Pakistan turns out to be anything but.The Muslim country, which has banned content on at least 17 websites to block offensive and blasphemous material, is the world's leader in online searches for pornographic material,
Pakistan is top dog in searches per-person for "horse sex" since 2004, "donkey sex" since 2007, "rape pictures" between 2004 and 2009, "rape sex" since 2004, "child sex" between 2004 and 2007 and since 2009, "animal sex" since 2004 and "dog sex" since 2005, according to Google Trends and Google Insights, features of Google that generate data based on popular search terms.

The country also is tops -- or has been No. 1 -- in searches for "sex," "camel sex," "rape video," "child sex video" and some other searches that can't be printed here.

http://news.oneindia.in/2010/07/16/pakistan-tops-world-in-internet-searches-for-porn.html

Please feel free to play the victimcard.

8 January 2011 at 17:16  
Blogger srizals said...

Uhh. Dirty little secrets like the bridge of No Gun Ri and May Li! I like. Why don't start spilling them out here for the whole world to see Mr. Pounceuk? Don't be shy. I would be very, very embarrassed. Would you like to miss a chance of humiliating me, yet again? This is not a webpage where you are safe to accuse and others are defencelessly mute. His grace has more guts than the likes of you, you know. Come on. I'm waiting.

http://www.zimbio.com/Bradley+Manning/articles/so1WsetpWXI/British+troops+kill+8+year+old+Iraqi+girl

8 January 2011 at 17:17  
Blogger srizals said...

Pounce uk said, "The Turks have killed many more innocents (Including Muslims) than every western nation combined". (I hope you can defend this statement).

Wow, mighty big allegations by a historian like you. And the proof would be?

Ancient Briton, the average Muslims won't be tempted to the dark side of the force if Britain was fighting a just war against tyranny and not treating them like dirt, simple?

You forgot about Iraq Mr. Pounce uk. That shows something huh? The British hands were bloody as well, drenched with the blood of millions of Iraqis, only recently of course.

Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires ok? Get out while you still can. Save the billions to compensate the Muslims out of Britain. But what about the White Caucasian Muslims? Pounceuk can go back to Pakistan or India, but Cat Steven?

8 January 2011 at 17:28  
Blogger srizals said...

Where is that ex-Muslim? I hope he won't be an ex-commentor, like previously.

8 January 2011 at 17:33  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

For me, the clue to the EMRC’s thinking lies in ‘This means [Muslims] were not attacked because of their religion. Islam itself is not involved.’

The first Muslims to settle here may have been attacked because of the colour of their skin and attacks may then have been provoked by the transformation of British working-class neighbourhoods into little Pakistans, but Islam itself must now share the blame for attacks on Muslims. Its encouragement of violence makes it a threat to law and order and its distinction between the pure Muslim and the unclean infidel makes the prospect of integration, let alone assimilation, remote in the extreme.

Far from Islam not being involved, it is its own worst enemy. Thanks to Channel 4’s Undercover Mosque, we know that extremist Islam does not lie forgotten on the pages of the Qur’an, it is preached in mosques. These quotes are from The Observer:

‘You cannot accept the rule of the kafir [non-Muslim] … We have to rule ourselves and we have to rule the others.’

‘Kafir is the worst word that can ever be written, a sign of infidelity, disbelief, filth, a sign of dirt.’

‘God help us in our fight against the kafir, in every field, in every department of life. We beg you to help us fight against the enemies of our religion.’

‘Allah has created the woman deficient.’

‘The time is fast approaching where the tables are going to turn and the Muslims are going to be in the position of being uppermost in strength and, when that happens, people won’t get killed—unjustly.’

With Islam holding such abhorrent views and with its followers growing rapidly in number, anti-Muslim sentiment can only increase as the British come to understand how their whole way of life is threatened by Islam.

8 January 2011 at 17:34  
Blogger srizals said...

Catch you later pounce uk, slumber is besieging me. I'll read up tomorrow. As always.

8 January 2011 at 17:35  
Blogger srizals said...

Ancient Briton, there's no salvation in the blood of others. Only the blood of the sinners can cleanse their own sins. Their bloody hands would never be cleanse. God is just. The evil ones would get what they deserved. If not here, in the Hereafter, forever.

8 January 2011 at 17:39  
Blogger pounce_uk said...

Sirzels for your info I have 30 years under my belt (A little after Christ-mas) wearing the uniform of the country if my birth. In all that time if anybody is found to have committed a crime he is arrested, questioned,judged and if found guilty jailed. He isn't lauded like a popstar which is how the killer of , Salman Taseer has been treated by the public in Pakistan. His crime he tried to defend the rights of Christians in Pakistan.
So spare me this 'Islamophobia is rife' in the Uk angle when actually the title should be attributed to any Islamic country where honour takes precedence over the rule of law.

8 January 2011 at 17:40  
Blogger srizals said...

What do you mean by "the country if my birth", pounceuk? You forgot the proof of your grandeur acccusations! Where is it?

8 January 2011 at 17:42  
Blogger srizals said...

Scroll up please, lest you are consumed by any intoxicants that would jeopardise you best judgement against me. I'll wait for you to sober up. I won't mind.

8 January 2011 at 17:46  
Blogger pounce_uk said...

Sirzels wrote:
Wow, mighty big allegations by a historian like you. And the proof would be?

Greek genocide
Armenian genocide
East Pakistan
Black September
The Hama massacre
Why when Israel was formed in 1947 each and every Arab nation invaded in which to push the jews into the sea. Problem is even with 5 different armies converging on an army less Israel the Arabs lost. But what would have happened if the Jews had lost?

You may wish to reply

8 January 2011 at 17:47  
Blogger srizals said...

Here's a link to help you out, Mr Pounceuk.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2106809_sober-up.html

8 January 2011 at 17:48  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

srizals, your response is disgusting. Whatever the implication of your remark, children are not responsible for the actions of their government.

Your attitude typifies the problem for moderate Westerners. You expect us to be tolerant and accuse us of Islamophobia if we dare to say anything you don't approve of yet feel free to make any number of accusations.

Since you didn't answer the question you jumped in on, perhaps you would answer this. Do you approve of the treatment of Muslim woman illustrated in the video link referred to in my first (16.53) comment - http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8ckmh_five-pakistani-women-buried-alive-i_news
If not, what are you doing about it? I shall take your silence as approval.

8 January 2011 at 17:49  
Blogger srizals said...

What? That's it? Where's the body count man? Are these all the hideous wars fought by Muslims? I'm tickling to compare. But I'll await your figures first. Pauses are to be expected. Delay is inevitable.

8 January 2011 at 17:50  
Anonymous Oswin said...

pounce_uk @ 17:40

I welcome your intervention; your comments help to bridge the gap between otherwise isolated extremes, and offer another, interesting perspective.

Thank you, I look forward to hearing more.

8 January 2011 at 17:52  
Blogger srizals said...

They want to push them back to sea in boats as they came, Mr. Pounceuk. They are not going to booby-trapped them like the Jews themselves.

"November 25, 1940. S.S.Patria was blown up by Jewish terrorists in Haifa harbour, killing 268 illegal Jewish immigrants"
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-terrorists-jewish-zionist-terrorists.html

What's your opionion on Dier Yassin, Sabra and Shatilla and the recent Gaza bombing, Mr Human pounceuk?

8 January 2011 at 17:55  
Anonymous Oswin said...

srizals@ 17:50

I don't wish to put words into pounces' mouth, but I believe he may be refering to wars/conflicts where muslims have massacred those of differing faiths?

8 January 2011 at 17:56  
Blogger srizals said...

1947? Get your facts right Mr. Humanely Pounceuk. We don't want to embarrass ourselves now, won't we?

Are you a Catholic or a Protestant now Mr. Pounceuk? State your denomination please. So that the rest of the Christians won't be offended.

8 January 2011 at 18:00  
Blogger srizals said...

Yes, I know Oswin. But let the man speak for himself. He has dared to accuse. Now, he must be able to defend, boldly, I hope.

8 January 2011 at 18:02  
Anonymous Bede said...

Exeter University has for decades had an Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies, which was certainly originally funded by one of the Gulf States, and probably still is.

Saudi Arabia, Libya and the Gulf States have also spent many tens of millions of dollars over several decades in funding mosques and foundations, similar to the one at Exeter, around the world.

That's where your petrol money goes.

8 January 2011 at 18:04  
Blogger srizals said...

Then stop buying petrol for military purposes Bede! Better, stop buying oil from Muslims. Let see if you can survive the winter by being so hotly arrogant. Kids nowadays. Hmm..

8 January 2011 at 18:06  
Blogger srizals said...

I'm curios why is most commentors can't spell my name correctly? Some sort of deficiency? Of at least, decency?

8 January 2011 at 18:11  
Blogger Mr Eman said...

DP111 said...
Modern Day Trojan Horse: The Islamic Doctrine of Immigration
Sam Solomon & Elias Al Maqdisi ANM Publishers, 2009, 139 pp

You're a wise man, DP111, but defeatist! Remember history. Chamberlain and the 'elite' in Britain would have caved into Hitler. Along came Churchill.

Read Margaret Thatcher's biography.
Look at her quote on the right of this blog:

"I am in politics because of the conflict between good and evil, and I believe that in the end good will triumph."
Margaret Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher LG, OM, PC, FRS.

And, for my money, the greatest man of the 20th Century:

"I am an optimist. It does not seem too much use being anything else."
Winston Churchill

Our leaders now have to open their eyes and proceed carefully as they are being streched abroad, weakened, and not by Islam, at home.

There are advances on Four Fronts, not one AT THIS TIME. It's as plain as day. We need leaders with the foresight and courage of WC and MT. There's been a complex strategy at play over centuries.

srizals - for goodness sake do stop being so mischievious!
Although, I must say, you are revealing the stupidity and short sightedness of your 'contestants'.

Apologies if I've spelt your name wrong at anytime.

8 January 2011 at 18:40  
Blogger pounce_uk said...

Sirzels, I’ve noted from your most informative posts that only you appears to be offended by my stating that I am an apostate from Islam. Where is this religion of Peace and tolerance everybody is talking about? This thread is about how ‘Islamopobia’ (an oxymoron if the word existed) isn’t as big an issue as some make it out to be. In fact I’ll go that step further and say it is actively used in which to stifle debate.
As for me not putting up figures for the massacres I listed is it beyond your abilities to google, I mean we both know that whatever number I put up substantiated by whatever link you will find some way in which to allocate the blame onto the..jew. Which funny enough is the next part of my post. You listed S.S.Patria/Dier Yassin,/Sabra and Shatilla and the recent Gaza bombings as the foil to those events i listed. Well sir put it this way combined those events pale in significance to the last (and smallest death toll) the Hama massacre where up to 40,000 people died when the Syrian government decided to flatten the town of Hama in 1982 because the Muslim brotherhood had set up shop there. Strangely enough the event transpired only a few months before the incident used by every man and his dog in which to paint how evil Israel is (Sabra and Shatilla) yet the highest death toll figure is 3500. 10 times less than Hama. But for some strange reason nobody bothers to mention that dreadful event.
But I digress from the actual subject that of the Islamopobia which according to the faithful is rife in the UL. Well sir, not only was I adopted by a white family during the 70s joined a virtually all white British army in the 80s, I now live in a town where around 99.9% of the population are white. Not once have I experienced anybody throw hatred in my face, put a brick through my windows or even call me a paki for having an Islamic name, brown skin and very white teeth.
Now if you feel the British are racist by all means tell us why you feel that way. Something you haven’t substantiated in any form. But out of all the countries in the world I have to admit the least racist are the Brits.

8 January 2011 at 19:01  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Cripes, srizals, you're like a tap that won't turn off.

BTW I seem to recall Churchill warning us against Islam.

8 January 2011 at 20:20  
Anonymous Adrian P said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8 January 2011 at 22:16  
Anonymous not a machine said...

They are beaten back a little for now , but agree with you Len we are perhaps reaping what we have sown , or others have sown .

Perhaps we are still at the stage of chewing it over , but you tell me do you think it will stop?

8 January 2011 at 23:26  
Blogger Mr Eman said...

Enough .... You're all doing precisely what fundamental Islamists want.

For God's sake stop throwing threats at one another. Stop throwing history at one another.
All sides have offended the other.

That was THEN, this is Now.

From the little I know, Islam is a religion calling for slavery rather than loving service to God. Worship is intended to achieve earthly gain, wealth, honour and revenge on enemies.

This is not the God of Love I know. His ways are gentle and service to Him is expressed as a selfless giving of oneself to others and to Him.

How long will all this continue?

Do what we have to do to protect our homes, family, nation and way of life. Hatred is not necessary for this. Indeed it brings the very outcome Christians should seek to avoid. It corrupts us. It seperates us from God.

If peace cannot be achieved, and there are forces, on both sides, human and demonic, set against peace, a clear head, a calm manner and good leadership is needed. Not the ravings and rantings of animals.

Call me naive - but shouldn't we be praying rather than baying?

8 January 2011 at 23:51  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Wot Bred in the Bone, Gnostic, and Oswin said

Thanks also for the info on Exeter University - I, of course, am deeply grateful for their published editions of ancient English texts. These are Christian, as is much of the history of the city itself. How sad that the polluters have infiltrated such a place; though I'm sure this is no accident.

I've also noticed that several high officials at other universities are not of Christian or British origin. The subversion is no longer hidden.

9 January 2011 at 01:08  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Precisely Mr Eman , it isnt exactly what I would like , but as you say we must consider what best to do. Hate is not how we should end up , that creates it own problems .
If our traditions and way of life is of value then I have little choice . we must also be aware of relevetasim , I have to settle my own concience first .But it is clear there is some resistance developing for the decades long mantra that we need immigration .

Do we invite our own demise to tea assuming it will see its error ?

9 January 2011 at 02:11  
Blogger srizals said...

Mr. Pounce uk, you have to grow up and stop being a pampered ex-Muslim boy and be treated like a man. Stop being a baby! No matter how white your teeth is! You have been abused, I understand, but I'm not in any way treating you differently as any commentators here. Read back. In fact, I am being generous to you.

Since you're using a guerrilla technique, of popping and gone from time to time, your pathetic assumption is understandable. Your figures of Hama massacre was misleading. You don't even understand the word 'estimate', and foremost, it doesn't break the 1 millionth mark. So you're a self-debunking debater. Done.

Next, the Syrian Baath is no Islamic party! They are the same as the Baath of Iraq. Why do you think they are so fond of killing Muslims in the first place?

Do you understand what is a secular socialist party Mr. Pounce uk? You should really be reading about politics before daring to talk about it. Done.

Third, you said that you knew the hidden secrets of Islam, I've been waiting for ages and you still keep everyone in suspense, spill the 'truth' out please. KIV.

You have a distorted timeline of the aggressions of the human race and the false patrons involved in splashing petrol to the flame of conflict! Let me help you out.

'A Quantitative review of political violence across world civilisations'.
http://rissc.jo/docs/bodycount_final.pdf

About Jihad,
http://rissc.jo/docs/jihad_final.pdf

And about Jerusalem,
http://rissc.jo/docs/J101-10-10-10.pdf

You are afraid to provide links, why? We must have credible resources, even in the Net you know. We might be fooled by a joker that thinks he's a learned intellectual! Non Mouse wouldn't have like it.

And I have 12 questions for you, Mr. Pounce uk.

1. Who had been killing humans like they were mere flies since science so kindly contributed to the advancement of weaponry that would threatened man to self-extinction?

2. Who had been killing the Jews since Jesus were said to be killed by them?

3. Who had the weirdest holy matrimony in the world of same sex marriages?

4. Who has the highest sexual related industries and first introduced weird STDs with lovely names to us?

5. Who do you think is killing man the most now and who had been waging wars on defenseless unarmed civilians to win wars?

6. Who has the most men of god in sexual scandals?

7. Who has the highest abortion rate in the history of man, now and then?

8. Who had been killing their fellow brothers in faith as inhumanely possible by sawing man in half with ropes, burning the genital of a dying man before his very eyes with open gut in public?

9. Who are you really Mr. Pounce uk? A worshiper of money, animals, idols, lust or man?

10. Who had and have the largest nuclear arsenals to blow the earth to kingdom come? Iran?

11. Who invented the medieval torture machines and who had suffered them?

12. Who had dark ages in the history of man?

You better read up, a lot, before self-praising yourself as my debunker.

I haven't done yet. We'll continue afterwards. Have something to do. And it can't wait. Hopefully you will succeed in debunking me and save me from this Lancelot curse! I pray thee. I'll read up. As always.

9 January 2011 at 07:54  
Blogger srizals said...

Mr. Pounce uk, you have to grow up and stop being a pampered ex-Muslim boy and be treated like a man. Stop being a baby! No matter how white your teeth is! You have been abused, I understand, but I'm not in any way treating you differently as any commentators here. Read back. In fact, I am being generous to you.

Since you're using a guerrilla technique, of popping and gone from time to time, your pathetic assumption is understandable. Your figures of Hama massacre was misleading. You don't even understand the word 'estimate', and foremost, it doesn't break the 1 millionth mark. So you're a self-debunking debater. Done.

Next, the Syrian Baath is no Islamic party! They are the same as the Baath of Iraq. Why do you think they are so fond of killing Muslims in the first place?

Do you understand what is a secular socialist party Mr. Pounce uk? You should really be reading about politics before daring to talk about it. Done.

Third, you said that you knew the hidden secrets of Islam, I've been waiting for ages and you still keep everyone in suspense, spill the 'truth' out please. KIV.

You have a distorted timeline of the aggressions of the human race and the false patrons involved in splashing petrol to the flame of conflict! Let me help you out.

'A Quantitative review of political violence across world civilisations'.
http://rissc.jo/docs/bodycount_final.pdf

About Jihad,
http://rissc.jo/docs/jihad_final.pdf

And about Jerusalem,
http://rissc.jo/docs/J101-10-10-10.pdf

9 January 2011 at 07:56  
Blogger srizals said...

You are afraid to provide links, why? We must have credible resources, even in the Net you know. We might be fooled by a joker that thinks he's a learned intellectual! Non Mouse wouldn't have like it.

And I have 12 questions for you, Mr. Pounce uk.

1. Who had been killing humans like they were mere flies since science so kindly contributed to the advancement of weaponry that would threatened man to self-extinction?

2. Who had been killing the Jews since Jesus were said to be killed by them?

3. Who had the weirdest holy matrimony in the world of same sex marriages?

4. Who has the highest sexual related industries and first introduced weird STDs with lovely names to us?

5. Who do you think is killing man the most now and who had been waging wars on defenseless unarmed civilians to win wars?

6. Who has the most men of god in sexual scandals?

7. Who has the highest abortion rate in the history of man, now and then?

8. Who had been killing their fellow brothers in faith as inhumanely possible by sawing man in half with ropes, burning the genital of a dying man before his very eyes with open gut in public?

9. Who are you really Mr. Pounce uk? A worshiper of money, animals, idols, lust or man?

10. Who had and have the largest nuclear arsenals to blow the earth to kingdom come? Iran?

11. Who invented the medieval torture machines and who had suffered them?

12. Who had dark ages in the history of man?

You better read up, a lot, before self-praising yourself as my debunker.

I haven't done yet. We'll continue afterwards. Have something to do. And it can't wait. Hopefully you will succeed in debunking me and save me from this Lancelot curse! I pray thee. I'll read up. As always.

9 January 2011 at 07:56  
Blogger srizals said...

And no. 13, What in the hell does the Hama massacre has anything to do with the Israel-Palestinian conflict? What are you even implying? They are Syrians!

9 January 2011 at 08:22  
Anonymous len said...

Mr Eman,
My first response to your call to stop challenging each other about our religions is to agree.
But this leaves us with a dilemma.The logical conclusion to this (not yours I agree)is that we say all religions lead to God and live at peace with other.This is the way things are heading I believe with the E U. And with secularists who claim(there is no absolute truth, all truth is relative.)
But if Catholicism,Christianity and Islam all claim to be the ONLY way to God this leaves us with a problem.The only way to find out the truth is to die and find out what happens next!.By which time it is obviously too late!!!.
So there must be another way to find the truth out NOW.
The only way we can do this is to study Gods Word and Biblical prophesy(preferably in a form untampered by unscrupulous men!)God does nothing without revealing His plan to His prophets.Gods plans and intentions are ALL laid out in the Bible.
We must go back to the very roots of Christianity and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and not rely on later corruptions,or revelations of 'prophets popes'or theologians.
The Bible is the complete Word of God , it is the 'additions 'that cause the confusion!.

9 January 2011 at 08:45  
Anonymous len said...

God will demonstrate that He is God

Through the prophet Ezekiel, God explains the great purpose for the events He has revealed to us:

"'I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward. The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them, and hidden My face from them.'

"Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel … When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer'" (Ezekiel 39:21-28; compare with Exodus 6:7).

God put these prophecies in writing so all humanity will be able to understand and believe in His great power and truthfulness. All peoples will then have incontrovertible evidence that they can trust Him as the living and faithful God. If God should fail to keep a single promise, His word would always be suspect. Prophecy explains how He will keep His promises—both to punish those who rebel against Him and to bless those who yield to His instructions.

God intends to use His prophecies—and their astounding accuracy—to demonstrate to all that He is indeed the God of truth. They will come to realize the reliability of Jesus Christ's plain statement concerning God: "Your word is truth" (John 17:17).

9 January 2011 at 08:52  
Blogger srizals said...

Len, you knew about Nicaea. How then can we tell which is which in the Bible? History is a great tool of understanding Len. The 13 questions I've asked pounceuk, the answers will reveal which is the truth and who the evil doers are.

Don't try to blaspheme God for the evilness of man. I can understand their actions since they are purely evil, but you? You would be a sad representative of the truth that is build on genocide! And that would be a total shame. How do you even sleep at night knowing you are approving hideous devilish crimes to prove your faith is right when you yourself knew that the Bible had been tampered with in the first place? How Len? Please tell me so I can understand the mindset of unrepentant baby killers that think they are doing god's work. And I'm sure they won't lay a finger on a puppy. It would be totally cannibalistic!

9 January 2011 at 10:36  
Blogger srizals said...

God tortured them and they are still unrepentant of their sins of denying him and obeying the dos and the don'ts and yet he let them back after banishing them, twice? Do you know how odd is your logic Len? Why does god depend so much on a few millions special people that were ex-slaves of the Pharaohs, the Babylonians and so many more? What is so special about them Len to God? Except being massacred and treated hideously by Christians for ages and now, a complete copy cat of their evil tormentors?

I've always heard that god moves in mysterious ways. I've never heard that god moves in evil ways. Do you realised what you have done to man's perceptions of God? I pray that you will see the light, but for having such illogical reasoning, I dub thee unforgiven.

9 January 2011 at 10:48  
Anonymous len said...

Srizels,
Study what was done in the name of God by Constantine at Nicaea. Constantine who murdered several of his relatives had the last say in deciding what was'biblical ' truth.Constantine was a pagan who wanted to unite his empire so he mixed Christianity with Paganism. But true Christianity ran a parallel course with the 'universal church' founded by Constantine.
Compare the teachings of Catholicism with the dead sea scrolls also with;

www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

also
ww.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm ...

9 January 2011 at 10:58  
Anonymous len said...

Srizels, when you point a finger at anyone,three point back at you,providing you haven`t fallen foul of Sharia law!
Read the texts!.

9 January 2011 at 11:01  
Blogger srizals said...

In the sharia law or those who executes them, please define!

What if the sharia law was also in the Bible, Len?

I don't point with my index finger, Len. I'm a Malay. We point with our thumbs. So that would be four fingers pointing back at me!

9 January 2011 at 11:03  
Anonymous Oswin said...

srizals @ 11:03

''What if sharia law was in the Bible, Len?''

After I had stopped 'huffing and puffing' re' the above, I realised it was a very good question indeed! However, Len had part-way answered your question before it was asked.

His piece @ 10:58 re' Constantine
(Mr.Eman, please take note)exemplifies the need for caution regarding so-called 'Holy Writ' ... you can imagine whatever 'what-ifs' that may come to mind, but unless Christ set his indefectible, and indefatigable seal upon it, it ain't going to run...well, not 'forever' it won't; leastways, not without speculation and close-scrutiny.

Of course, I admit that determining that 'seal' has it's self-same problems too, emanating from that self-same Constantinian 'ambush' and the subsequent fourth century Latin Vulgate Bible; the Councils of Hippo & Carthage; to the Council of Trent in 1546!

We can only guess at the number of gospels beyond the four within the New Testament. Modern sources suggest at least 34 gospels written within the first two hundred years A.D. All in all, there may be be fifty-plus ... the total is simply unknowable.

Therefore, we do what we can, with what we have... and what we have, may forever be subject to further discovery. We extrapolate from the mean, as best we may. It's an act of faith, but an act of faith that allows men to use their God given, but fallible reason.

9 January 2011 at 18:39  
Anonymous len said...

The Biblical Laws(Old Testament ) were harsh,but these were needed to keep the sinful nature in check until Christ came to redeem humanity.It is mainly the fear of retribution that keeps the sinful nature of fallen man in check.
Those who accept Christ are re-born and get a new nature, born of the Spirit of God.These born-again Christians do not need the law to keep them in check, because they obey Gods Laws naturally.
Islam has no solution to the wickedness of man other than to suppress the sinful nature through fear of punishment. This is why the West is disintegrating because the Law has been changed to give more priority to the criminal then the victim!
...........
We seem to have wandered somewhat from the original thread and I thank you(once again) for your forbearance Your Grace!)

9 January 2011 at 18:45  
Anonymous len said...

Srizels,

One quarter(at least) of the Bible is prophesy,prophesying things that have happened, and things that will happen.This proves the Bible to be the Word of God as only One who lives outside time could have written it.This is not the word of mortal men!It is the words of the Creator, who has a plan for the redemption of His Creation.

This Bible quote answers two questions;

1,(Srizels) The Christian God is one!

2,(for Mr Eman,) The identity of the 'rock'.

....
“This is what the LORD says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.
Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come—
yes, let them foretell what will come.
Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”
( Isaiah 44 6-7)

9 January 2011 at 19:26  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

len said...
9 January 2011 19:26

"Mr Self Rightous" more like!

OMG - WHAT UTTER TOSH!

"These born-again Christians do not need the law to keep them in check, because they obey Gods Laws naturally."

NBobody, but nobody obeys 'naturally! Fundamental. It is the Holy Spirit within us.

Didn't I read somewhere that God has implanted a sense of right and wrong in the heart of everyone? The Holy Spirit brings this forward according to God's Plan.

All this 'happy clappy' ectascy -
a trance or trance-like state in which an individual transcends (or decends) normal consciousness. Remarkably akin to 'old' religions. It opens a 'gateway'. Be careful who enters.

Having read through your posts, I would say there's not much indication of the Holy Spirit. Again, didn't I read somewhere He is soft, gentle and quietly spoken?

I'm not a great reader of scripture but can recall bits and pieces from school. You speak it - you don't live it in your 'evangalisation'.

Stop putting other people's attempts at waging spiritual warfare down. It's turning people away from God and not toward Him

9 January 2011 at 22:32  
Anonymous len said...

Anon22:32,
The clue is in the post( born-again.)

God has implanted a conscience in everyone,however it is possible to ignore this or everyone would be God conscious,don`t you think?

I would prefer(much) to be 'happy clappy) than spiritually dead, wouldn`t you?.

BTW.
"And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws."
Ezekiel 36:27
(Your argument appears to be with God .)

9 January 2011 at 22:57  
Anonymous Happy Clappy len said...

Anon 22 :32
One last word,Christians are supposed to contend for the faith, it seems too many are afraid to speak up for the truth and are intimidated into silence!


Christians today seem to have forgotten how important truth was to Jesus and to the first believers. Many current thinkers actually feel like it is divisive for us to take a stand for truth at all, and they certainly don’t like it when they are publicly rebuked for holding a position that might be called ‘un-Biblical”. But let’s try to remember that both John the Baptist and Jesus were quick to point out the false teaching of those around them, and they did so with a pointed and biting manner. Take for example, John’s biting condemnation of the Pharisees he addressed on the shore of the Jordan River:

Matthew 3:7-9
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bring forth fruit in keeping with repentance; and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves,' We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you, that God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.”

9 January 2011 at 23:40  
Blogger Andyj said...

What a self serving, unholy bunch of liars those Muslims are!

If I openly walked around their nations with a report like that I would be put down in the usual inhuman way!

God helps them who help themselves.

These people come for a better life here because they will not create a better one for themselves where they came from. Mostly because of religious/educational constraints; The means to work hard; The wish to work as a productive team and a blame culture for what amounts to their own failings.

10 January 2011 at 01:14  
Blogger srizals said...

Mr. Pounce uk, since you're highlighting Hama massacre, a civil war between the same entity, how about this one,

The Taiping rebellion, an estimated 20 millions (highest estimation) perished in the bloodiest civil war in the Guiness book of record, and it was inspired by who and what?

http://www.thegeminigeek.com/what-was-the-taiping-rebellion/

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/580815/Taiping-Rebellion

2 more days Mr. Pounce uk. Please save this page for later reference if you ever decided that you should disrupt my momentum again in the future.

10 January 2011 at 11:36  
Blogger srizals said...

http://www.answers.com/topic/taiping-rebellion

If you need more reference on the matter, Pounce uk. Could you give me some links about Hama massacre?

10 January 2011 at 12:02  
Anonymous Oswin said...

srizals @ 11:36

The 'Taiping Rebellion' was indeed a most terrifying period in Chinese history, It's logistics, and human suffering, are beyond comprehension.

However, it was not down to 'Christianity' as we, or anyone else understands it, but to an unbelievably warped set of concepts, allied to the cruelty and psychopathic natures of certain leading individuals and, set against the back-drop of weird, and decidedly alien Chinese attitudes and structures.

It is down to the lunacy of the charismatic leader of the Taiping rebels, Hung Hsiu Chuan, who believed that he was the younger brother of Jesus Christ! It is far too complex to cover here.

Further reading on the subject will help to disabusre you of the correlation that you suggest. I trust here srizals, to your eventual academic appraisal.

Imagine a religion based upon a mad Aunt's insistence that her pet hamster was the reincarnation of Mohammed's brother, and demanded the universal cull of all guinea pigs. You wouldn't call it 'Islam' would you?

An excellent appraisal, that pulls the many threads together, is to be found within the novel: ''Empire of Heaven'' by Linda Ching Sledge. However, even when placed within the medium of a novel, the events that unfold are barely believable!

10 January 2011 at 18:02  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

By contrast, Muslim men grooming vunerable white girls [in whose eyes they are little more than animals] to satisfy their frustrated lusts [and in one case at least to have killed one girl off and possibly turned her remains into fast food] has nothing to do with conquering the dhimmi West.

[The sheer brass-necked chutzpah of the Jack Straw now "shining a light" on this dreadful situation, when he was part and parcel of the very regime which for 15 years ruthlessly suppressed any mention of it while allowing unlimited immigration from the failed Muslim state of Somalia in order to "rub the Right's nose in diversity" took my breath away, but I digress.]

Alfred of Wessex

10 January 2011 at 20:35  
Blogger srizals said...

That is my point Oswin, no religion should be tainted by the hands of her followers and believers, even when they themselves are convinced, as do others are so convinced, that they are doing it in the name of their faith, while the whopping majority do not.

What more mere petty criminals, Sir Alfred of Wessex. But I guess you're also new here or have been ignoring my posts. But if you care to check out for yourself, criminals are not the representative of any religions nor race!

What's your opinion on this one, Alfred?

"Britain is one of the worst sex tourism offenders. Approximately 24 British pedophiles are known to live in Thailand. (Child Care Agencies, UK police join fight against Thai child sex tourism, BBC, 9 December 1997)."
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/uk.htm

"Child Abuse"
http://www.jimhopper.com/abstats/

"Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children: A Literature Review"
http://www.adultssavingkids.org/LitRev.html

http://tessera2009.blogspot.com/2010/03/sexual-abuse-of-women-in-church.html

http://www.scribd.com/doc/23270315/THE-SEXUAL-EXPLOITATION-OF-CHILDREN-AUGUST-2001

What if most of the children' exploiters were of your own kind, Mr. Alfred, what will you do then?

1 more day, Mr. Pounce uk.

10 January 2011 at 22:28  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Guess the world's just full of plonkers!

11 January 2011 at 01:33  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Evil ones at that ... all over.

11 January 2011 at 01:35  
Anonymous AtillaTheHun said...

That is why every system has allocated punishment for the wicked. The good must be saved from future evil doers. The evil ones must perished for their sins. Even if it means some part of their limbs and naughty birdie through castration. And I'm not referring to current event regarding a Carlos.

11 January 2011 at 05:07  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Srizals, one day, either me or one of my muslim brothers is going to kill you for what you have said.

Allahu Akbar!

11 January 2011 at 08:08  
Blogger srizals said...

Anon at 08:08, you're definitely not a Muslim! Stop fooling yourself that you're one. And stop using such cowardice before me. I have prayed to Allah to grant me the ability to kill my killers. You are welcome to try. No one lives forever.

I pray that the Lord will empty your soul for daring to use His name to mock the Muslims. Insya Allah.

11 January 2011 at 09:29  
Blogger srizals said...

Since we are enjoying death threats, I like to share this interesting link of extinct animals before my time is up.

"Furthermore, due to the large size of their flocks, the birds were seen as a threat to farmers. In fact, in 1703 the Catholic bishop of Quebec actually excommunicated the entire species".

And the beautiful passenger pigeon is nowhere to be seen now.

Who's been eating the tigers, rhinos and sharks? Tigers for their meat and penis, sharks for their fins. And rhinos for their edible keratins. Where are all the animal champions that hunt halal meat?

http://ecolocalizer.com/2009/04/02/11-extinct-animals-that-have-been-photographed-alive/

11 January 2011 at 10:24  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Anonymous @ 08:08

We'll have none of that, thank you!

12 January 2011 at 02:50  
Blogger srizals said...

Pounce_uk has debunked himself. Not unless he's really busy in the real world that he forgets the matrix after a brief meddling, short of courtesy. Brush your white teeth, be a man, and try later on. Don't give up.

15 January 2011 at 00:30  

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