Friday, February 25, 2011

Is Gerry Adams about to pay the price for his long association with Gaddafi?


There is a sense in which every Irish general election is a replay of the nation’s troubled past. If it’s not about the centuries-old British-Irish Protestant-Catholic sectarianism, it’s about the 90-year-old civil war of partition and the Anglo-Irish Treaty by which the Irish Free State was created. The resentment still festers; unforgiveness runs deep; the wounds are still open.

Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have dominated the politics of the Republic since its inception. They were born out of the civil war: Fianna Fáil, the present party of government, opposed partition; Fine Gael, which looks set to win today’s election, supported the treaty.

But Ireland’s accession to euro achieved something quite remarkable. The old tribal loyalties have melted away beneath the frustration, humiliation and anger caused by the country’s economic collapse. Those families which have religiously voted Fianna Fáil for the best part of a century are abandoning their political heritage, betrayed, they believe, by criminal bankers and corrupt politicians.

Of course, we know that little will change no matter who wins today’s general election: the Government of Ireland is the EU Commission; the economy of Ireland is controlled by the EU Central Bank. Fine Gael can tinker at the edges, but the macro stuff – the conditions of the bailout and crippling interest charges – is an inviolable obligation upon whichever party wins.

But the real story of the day is the extent to which Sinn Féin have not made the breakthrough they desired, or, indeed, expected, given the political and economic turmoil. Gerry Adams resigned his seat at Westminster to focus on the Dáil. Yes, he’ll probably win. But this election is looking to be a humiliation for Sinn Féin. If they can’t capitalise on the insecurity of a second potato famine, depression, soaring unemployment or the groundswell of resentment and Nationalist fervour in the midst of an EU plot to take over their beloved Éire, they will never be the all-Ireland party they profess to be.

But in the civil war leitmotif, the IRA has an awful lot to answer for. Their murderous campaign was waged indiscriminately, such that it alienated even their own natural supporters. Gerry Adams is inextricably linked to the IRA; he has so much blood on his hands that all great Neptune's Irish Sea could not wash it away. No; his hands will rather the multitudinous seas incarnadine, making the green one red.

As the people of Ireland go to the polls today, Gerry Adams’ problem is that he is inextricably linked to Colonel Gaddafi, whose murderous regime supplied the IRA with as much Semtex explosives and as many handguns, AK-47 assault rifles, heavy machine guns and RPG-7 rocket launchers as they required. Each day that Gaddafi is in the news is a reminder for the relatives of IRA victims that he and Gerry Adams were bedfellows. And not only bedfellows, but soul-mates and brothers in arms. While Gaddafi was blowing up planes over Lockerbie, Adams was busy blowing up Belfast and Enniskillen, not to mention Manchester, Canary Wharf and the entire British Cabinet in Brighton.

This is the most important Irish general election in decades. But it will change nothing. Irish sovereignty has been surrendered. The Fianna Fáil-Green coalition will fall and Fine Gael may win outright. And if they do not, they won’t be coming to Gerry Adams to form a coalition. No. He is the Republic’s very own Colonel Gaddafi; the former Commanding Officer of the IRA. As we watch the turmoil in Libya, and join our hearts with a people longing for freedom from oppression, terrorism and torture, let the people of Ireland never forget the proven links between the IRA and the Libyan dictator. Let them never forget the tons of weapons he has shipped to the Republic to maim and murder their compatriots. And let them remember today that Muammar Gaddafi and Gerry Adams are just different faces of same evil.

118 Comments:

Blogger Jude Collins said...

Oh dear. Check my blog for today at http://judecollinsjournalist.blogspot.com Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Talk about mired in the past...

25 February 2011 at 11:27  
Blogger Kilsally said...

Don`t forget IRA - Nazi collaboration or their links to ETA, FARC, Fidel Castro, PLO

http://theministerspen.blogspot.com/2011/02/sean-russell-nazi-collaborator-and-ira.html

http://theministerspen.blogspot.com/2011/02/ira-nazi-collaborators.html

http://theministerspen.blogspot.com/2011/02/sean-south.html

25 February 2011 at 12:17  
Blogger Gnostic said...

I wonder if the Irish will find the courage to default, decouple and declare themselves independent of the EU yoke.

One can hope.

25 February 2011 at 12:52  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Mrs Gnostic said:

'I wonder if the Irish will find the courage to default, decouple and declare themselves independent of the EU yoke'.

Let us pray that the brave Irsih will. Argentina is an example that they should examine.

And one day, just one day, in the future they will become a people again.

25 February 2011 at 13:55  
Anonymous Voyager said...

This is a most harsh verdict. Mr Adams has been a long-term Member of the Westminster Parliament and even attended the inauguration of Barrack Obama.

It is hard to believe that The Crown would employ Mr Adams under an Office of Profit or even that The Exchequer would pay him MPs' expenses if he were really such an evil man.

Do you want us to believe we live in a system where Executive, Legislature and Crown would pay stipends and expenses to someone who is the embodiment of evil ?

Surely some mistake ?

25 February 2011 at 14:28  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

Voyager, the sainted Mister Adams has never taken the Oath of Allegiance required in order to take his seat in the House, though the sainted Tony Blair did order the allocation of offices and staff to Mister Adams and his fellow dissident members in the Palace of Westminster.

Your Grace, I am sure that in today's Political Climate and vocabulary, the saintly Mister Adams should be referred to as a 'Freedom Fighter' and his association with the murderous activities of the IRA should be brushed aside...

It may come as a great shock to Messrs Clinton, Obama and the Kennedy Clan that Sinn Fein has never commanded majority support in the South, contrary to what a charming but sadly misinformed young lady thought on my last visit to New York. Many Irish would rather vote for the return of English rule than for Sinn Fein/IRA who used the weapons Gaddafi supplied to orchestrate and run all the crime rackets imaginable in the Republic.

25 February 2011 at 14:45  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jude Collins ... a joke of a commentator.

25 February 2011 at 15:20  
Anonymous Oswin said...

I agree with gnostic and D. Singh. Ireland must free herself from the European yoke.

25 February 2011 at 16:18  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFjUf-UMdTU

Betrayal and Collaboration

25 February 2011 at 16:23  
Blogger jdennis_99 said...

'Mired in the past?'

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Everyone would do well to remember Sinn Fein's crimes.

25 February 2011 at 16:31  
Anonymous Sov_Res said...

Your Grace,

For your amusement and that of your congregants, a timely and beautifully witty cartoon pointing to the Organisation of Islamic Conference's malevolent influence on the United Nations.

View here.

Deo et reginae fidelis

25 February 2011 at 17:31  
Blogger OldSouth said...

It is good to have a long memory. Let us hope that we all keep the brutal images of Gadafi's slaughter of his own people the next time we vote--wherever we vote.

Adams is not the only collaborator with this madman, just the one on the ballot this week. I hope His Grace will delve further, and fill out the list in good time.

May Heaven preserve Ireland and the Irish, and protect them from those who purport to lead them.

25 February 2011 at 18:08  
Anonymous Oswin said...

History, life, the universe and everything, is chock-full of 'strange bedfellows'. The secret being, I suppose, is to always choose the lesser of two weevils...

I'd rather a united, Euro-free Ireland, than bunking-up with any amount of mad sand-wallahs, of whatever persuasion. The IRA are not alone re' such entanglements...

25 February 2011 at 18:27  
Anonymous non mouse said...

I agree with Gnostic, Mr. Singh and Oswin. And Your Grace, of course. Thanks all.

25 February 2011 at 18:59  
Anonymous Atlas shrugged said...

A few facts to bare in mind when ever a discussion about terrorism is taking place.

The most dangerous users of terrorism are an individuals own respective government.

The greatest propagators of terrorism are the main stream media, and film industry.

The greatest beneficiaries of terrorism are the owners of our worlds multi-national conglomerates, and their diffusive arms industries.

The only innocent victims of terrorism, are the ordinary people of the entire world.

In many ways terrorism is a recently new thing, especially international terrorism.

In the past only ones own governing class had the ability or motivation to terrorize there own population. I strongly contend that in this particular regard, nothing has actually changed at all, but only seems to have done so.

The IRA were useful to the establishment up to a point. That point being, when they had successfully established International Islamic terrorism to inherit the IRA's role in this particular part of the world.

Therefore The IRA is now surplus to the establishments requirements, and has simply become a wholly criminal organization of gangsters, and psychopathic murderers. Who are now shown to have been a complete waste of time, life, and resources, as they have clearly achieved absolutely nothing of any value or longevity.

But surely, Gadafi and his fellow travelers are enemies of the worlds establishment, I can sense you all saying from here.

Let me put it this way.

Do you really believe that the powers that be would have actively encouraged Irish Americans to give money to the IRA, or allowed the likes of Gadafi, Mubarack, or Saddam Hussain to stay in power as long as they did, if they did not really want them to do so?

As recent events are showing us, when the REAL powers that be choose to rid themselves and humanity of these individuals or organizations, they do so, using any particular method which most suits their interests.

25 February 2011 at 20:13  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Let us pray, Your Grace, for two things.

Firstly that Gerry Adams is shortly a politician without a seat in any parliament of Ireland or Britain. Secondly that Adams' former paymaster Gaddafi is brought down before he massacres any more innocents.

May they rot in Hell together.

25 February 2011 at 20:39  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Having lived through a time when a section of Irish people thought terrorism was the route to independence struggle , when Irish Americans held fundraisers that gave money and legitamcay to killing civillians, the peace process was somthing that seemed so obvious and by the dialogue we have at least arrived where we are willing to look more carefully at the dynamo of the errors , tub thumping and shadowy goings on that cost all us so very dear.

Was there really an evil that needed to be defeated in anglo Irish relations? the generational developed anger between two christian countries whose trade is important to both , now it seems such a waste of lives and time .

your grace exposes a thread , a mantra, Gadaffi rooted in a marxist doctorine supplying semtex to an anti union ideaology for freedom from a synthetic injustice chanting a new republican freedom based on marxism . A devout Roman catholic country choosing a struggle that would in full fruition have destroyed that faith!

Ireland then having a succesion of taishocs birthed into the struggle/troubles and finally and perhaps most corruptly taking a euro currency and fake boom in a political bagmans bounus scheme , ending in all too real bust for those outside of the fake boom left to pick up the bill for the next decade or longer .

I dont blame the Irish for being somewhat dazed with it all , I can only hope that there is a lesson , peace and trade is perhaps harder than tub thumping and semtex , lives blighted by death , murder, punishment killings , drugs , disappeared , lives that could have enjoyed a day out in Donegal, a celi , a friendly chat in the bar.

Perhaps this election will not deliver the goverment for that future so long denied, but I can only hope that the irish people themselves will at least value the peace , as somthing better than the recent decades that have gone past.

25 February 2011 at 20:56  
Blogger Ernst Stavro Blofeld said...

Non Mouse (Tiddles started purring at the name) said 25 February 2011 18:59

"I agree with Gnostic, Mr. Singh and Oswin. And Your Grace, of course. Thanks all."

Ernst concurs, fully.

My favourite brightly coloured old hound said 25 February 2011 20:39

"May they rot in Hell together."

May not be harsh enough but well deserved.

Not a Machine said 25 February 2011 20:56

Good evening, Mr Blonde.

"Perhaps this election will not deliver the goverment for that future so long denied, but I can only hope that the irish people themselves will at least value the peace , as somthing better than the recent decades that have gone past."

We can but hope, old boy.

Ernst (just to infuriate that foreign chappie, Srizals)

25 February 2011 at 21:25  
Anonymous not a machine said...

mmm just listened to the news and it looks like the siege and battle for Tripoli has begun. I half wondered if the hallucinogens hadnt been admistered to his troops . let us hope and pray that it is quick and not as bloody as Gaddafi wants . His son seems to be making a bargaining chip , he would have been better not sending his tribesmen into a bitter struggle and hoping he gets a get out of jail card , i doubt he will be considered by the people as free of guilt and he will have the scene of seeing the justice of the sword administered perhaps even worse.
I just hope the UN can help to put in the new democratic structures , but it looks like food and medical aid will be needed and new police force .Keeping the libyan nation will do more for poverty but the eastern tribe will have to come to terms and keep them , the left over requirement for justice for the terrors of his war and reign should not be neglected , but getting some way of rebuilding its economy whilst the new era is birthed could be as bad as Iraq if the revenge flourishes, which he is hoping for .

25 February 2011 at 23:14  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

not a machine said..."I just hope the UN can help to put in the new democratic structures , but it looks like food and medical aid will be needed and new police force."

Sounds idilic I hope they don't forget to send us our fair share of refugees, after all we are in this together.

The NHS logo for obesity should be tighten your belts!

25 February 2011 at 23:34  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ not a machine—Sieges and battles in Egypt, too. ‘Egyptian Armed Forces Fire At Christian Monasteries, 19 Injured’. The story is here and there’s a subtitled video here.

25 February 2011 at 23:38  
Anonymous not a machine said...

the figures for refugees i have seen say up to 300,000 so getting there early would perhaps limit that scenario .

The NHS logo for obesity "warning socialist media mind bending may cause you to become armchair and sofa bound whilst living on a dimishing income as the jobs have gone oversees while you were watching"


i expect the first news team into tripoli will find a far from idyllc scene one report said 2-3000 had died since tuesday many by execution , where the missing have gone will be very difficult to come to terms with in the arab world .

25 February 2011 at 23:47  
Anonymous not a machine said...

I know Johnny Rottenbourgh, the copts have been persecuted for some time , which is all the more odd considering they lived in monasteries and not palaces . hardly the threat to eygptian goverment . Alqueda have had operations in Egypt and it isnt necessarily that most people feel any animosity towards the copts as they bring in tourists also, you would have thought Ra would have been the main religion.

25 February 2011 at 23:54  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

not a machine said..."i expect the first news team into tripoli will find a far from idyllc scene one report said 2-3000 had died since tuesday many by execution , where the missing have gone will be very difficult to come to terms with in the arab world ."

Perhaps Madeleine Albright could help explain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8

26 February 2011 at 01:01  
Anonymous not a machine said...

well yes bred in the bone , you are right sanctions didnt work and just put the D into dictator and corruption to keep the oil flowing . Makes blairs efforts look a bit lame but iraq was formost once 9/11 happend .

i was of course refering to the arab on arab genocide which some reports suggest , looks like hes taken it beyond a local sqabble in that sense , but there are the 40 yrs of the missing to discover .dont forget he managed to have an advanced nuclear program pretty secret , so no conformers that dissappered to his rule will have been plenty

26 February 2011 at 01:44  
Anonymous Voyager said...

it isnt necessarily that most people feel any animosity towards the copts

Really ? The disastrous state of most Muslim societies requires that Christians and Jews be vilified as they are usually more economically successful and do not submit to Allah but have a moral code well apart from Islam.

It is an alternative to the all-embracing compulsion of Islam - therefore it is dangerous

26 February 2011 at 05:58  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The important thing in all that is happening is to re-focus our attention on the difficulties and injustices that Palestinian suicide bombers face in getting through Israeli checkpoints.
I hope the BBC Middle East division will not forget its primary purpose.

IRA-Al QAEDA One Struggle!

26 February 2011 at 06:11  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wonder if the Irish will find the courage to default, decouple and declare themselves independent of the EU yoke.

Perhaps they could throw off the yoke of the Roman Catholic church at the same time and truly be free.

Jobrag

26 February 2011 at 06:38  
Anonymous len said...

Evil personifies itself in Adams and Gadaffi, these are but two in a long line of men who are totally callous and will do anything to gain their own particular ends.The fact that they have trampled over many innocent people is of no concern to them, they are merely pawns sacrificed to the 'cause'.
This totally'blows out of the water'the Atheistic myth that man is basically 'good'and is in no need of redemption.
Fallen man is in need of redemption and until that happens is in need of restraint.
When restraint is thrown off or disregarded( for the cause, whatever that is)we see the true nature of man.
We see the justification of evil Worldwide on an ever increasing scale.

26 February 2011 at 08:23  
Anonymous Voyager said...

I wonder if the Irish will find the courage to default, decouple and declare themselves independent of the EU yoke.

Well let's try and work out the mechanics of that exercise.....

a) constitutionally Ireland would need a Referendum

b) first it would need a Govt to propose withdrawal

c) it would lose the IMF support and the ECB would recall its loans which are to support the Euro

d) Ireland's banking system would collapse

e) London, Frankfurt and Paris would face banks tottering from cross-defaults

f) Ireland would be in a situation like the 1930s with only The Blueshirts as a memory

No political party is strong enough to deliver on this policy. If it comes it will require a dictatorship....it might yet happen

26 February 2011 at 10:46  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

His Grace has now posted on the Coptic situation in Egypt. He thanks you for drawing it to his attention, and politely requests that this thread be kept to the subject matter at hand.

26 February 2011 at 10:52  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"This totally'blows out of the water'the Atheistic myth that man is basically 'good'and is in no need of redemption."

We are what we are in all our glory: a self-aware, gregarious species, sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes selfish, sometimes altruistic, sometimes creative, sometimes destructive. Nowt 'fallen' about that, it's what nature created. It's taken us nearly 4 billion years to get here from those simple cells. The whole of history has unfolded to create you and me today. Rejoice in the wonder of it, it's truly marvellous.

26 February 2011 at 14:22  
Anonymous len said...

Danjo,
Seek a good optician, your 'rose tinted' glasses are obscuring your vision and your perception of reality.

26 February 2011 at 18:50  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"Seek a good optician, your 'rose tinted' glasses are obscuring your vision and your perception of reality."

Apart from the emotive rhetoric, I've basically stated facts. It is your belief set with its doom and gloom religiosity that jars with the reality all around us. I know this goes down like a lead balloon with people like you but look around, we live in a wonderful world. What an amazing species we are, with the breeze ruffling our hair poised as we are at the very top of the evolutionary tree of life. You're welcome to your dead god and your bleak and slightly creepy view on life. I'll see the wonder of nature instead and accept our place as one species amongst multitudes in it.

26 February 2011 at 19:16  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

I see Gerry Adams has won his seat.

26 February 2011 at 19:29  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Well said, Len

26 February 2011 at 20:09  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

:)

26 February 2011 at 20:15  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Well the ramblings of Danny Boy usually pass me by, but I've just about caught my breath from laughing, and got up from rolling "up-so-down"* after this:
"What an amazing species we are, with the breeze ruffling our hair poised as we are at the very top of the evolutionary tree of life.."
Top or bottom, we've been awfully slow about getting there, by any reckoning.

Doesn't the Childe D know that Wordsworth and the Romantics said it all, and so much better?
Nature!

May the lad never know the storms of the desert; may he never share the screams of those dismembered by the bombers, or disabled by cancer or compressed nerves; may sandstorms never glut the view of his cataracts.

Indeed, may he be rescued from the view of that ancient dweller among his desert faves, who said of a dream, "When Dawn's Left Hand Was in the Sky":

IX. But come with old Khayyam, and leave the Lot
Of Kaikobad and Kaikhosru forgot:
Let Rustum lay about him as he will,
Or Hatim Tai cry Supper--heed them not.

X. With me along some Strip of Herbage strown
That just divides the desert from the sown,
Where name of Slave and Sultan scarce is known,
And pity Sultan Mahmud on his Throne.

XI.Here with a Loaf of Bread beneath the Bough,
A Flask of Wine, a Book of Verse--and Thou
Beside me singing in the Wilderness--
And Wilderness is Paradise enow.

XII."How sweet is mortal Sovranty!"--think some:
Others--"How blest the Paradise to come!"
Ah, take the Cash in hand and waive the Rest;
Oh, the brave Music of a distant Drum!

So let Adams and Gaddaffi remember too:
XVI.Think, in this batter'd Caravanserai Whose Doorways are alternate Night and Day,
How Sultan after Sultan with his Pomp
Abode his Hour or two, and went his way.

XVII. They say the Lion and the Lizard keep
The Courts where Jamshyd gloried and drank deep:
And Bahram, that great Hunter--the Wild Ass
Stamps o'er his Head, and he lies fast asleep.

XVIII. I sometimes think that never blows so red
The Rose as where some buried Caesar bled;
That every Hyacinth the Garden wears
Dropt in its Lap from some once lovely Head.

XLVI. For in and out, above, about, below,
'Tis nothing but a Magic Shadow-show,
Play'd in a Box whose Candle is the Sun,
Round which we Phantom Figures come and go.**

*Chaucer - multiple refs.
**"The Rubaiyyat of Omar Khayyam." Trans. E. Fitzgerald.

wv: witten (close enough -witt...

26 February 2011 at 21:50  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Of course I never miss the Judaeo-Christian application of Son,
and so must add to the above:

O Son of Man, our Hero strong and tender,
Whose servants are the brave in all the earth,
Our living sacrifice to Thee we render,
Who sharest all our sorrows, all our mirth.

O feet so strong to climb the path of duty,
O lips divine that taught the words of truth,
Kind eyes that marked the lilies in their beauty,
And heart that kindled at the zeal of youth.

All here remember the tune, of course.... :)

26 February 2011 at 21:55  
Anonymous Ernst Stavro Blofeld said...

Non Mouse fondly reminiscing 26 February 2011 21:55

All here remember the tune, of course.... :)

It appears to make the odd occasional appearance on SOP and sadly it appears to be very rarely sung nowadays. They were much happier days, were they not.

School Uniforms with badges, Assembly, Duty, Self Discipline, Literacy.

Gutting, isn't it!

Ernst

26 February 2011 at 22:53  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"Well the ramblings of Danny Boy usually pass me by, but I've just about caught my breath from laughing, and got up from rolling "up-so-down"* after this:
[...] Top or bottom, we've been awfully slow about getting there, by any reckoning."

First off, of what relevance is the speed of the evolutionary process by natural selection? Mammals are hugely complex animals now and we're no exception. That's the wonder of it, all those tiny, tiny changes to get to this. If we manage to avoid natural disaster and man-made ones then what and where will we be in another billion years?

As for laughing so hard you need to catch your breath, I think we both know that's not true. I've been on forums and newsgroups since the beginning, when people write stuff like that it usually means they're massively over-compensating for what they really feel.

Forums are interesting places for psychology if you know what to look for. I mean, look at bluedog up there, supporting Len but adding nothing. He obviously thinks Len really needs the support at this point to do that. And he does, of course. Like the JWs at the doorstep, when they expect you to agree that the world is in a terrible state, and you look puzzled and say how wonderful it is, they have nowhere to go philosophically and just stand there looking foolish, the poor saps.

27 February 2011 at 05:32  
Anonymous len said...

Danjo,
The World could be/was/is/ a wonderful place according to your perception.
But your perception of people is myopic,unrealistic,illusory, and bound to your Worldview.
I don`t know how you came to this worldview ,possibly educated into it?
Your worldview doesn`t allow you to admit that there is a problem with Humanity, so you ignore it!
Can you honestly look at mankind and say man is intrinsically good, does History bear this out?
I can only assume that you have lived a very sheltered life or perhaps you live in a remote village where there is no crime and no visitors from the outside World, no TV, or radio,this way you could live(for a while ) detached from reality.

27 February 2011 at 08:03  
Anonymous len said...

A bit off thread and my last point, (requesting his Grace`s forbearance)

I imagine that myself and some of the other posters have lived long enough to have seen how Society has been manipulated and forced into a 'new Worldview.The youth have grown up with this new Worldview and have accepted it without question.They know no other.Until one' breaks out of the box'of this way of thinking you will remain conditioned ,like one of Pavlov`s dogs.
Truth doesn`t come from one trapped within this 'box 'but comes from an outside source which reveal the true condition of one trapped within 'the box'.Namely the Word of God.
Of course those trapped within the box will desperately clutch to what they have grown accustomed to and resist the Truth which doesnt agree with( and is totally opposed to) their accepted Worldview!

27 February 2011 at 08:33  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"I can only assume that you have lived a very sheltered life or perhaps you live in a remote village where there is no crime and no visitors from the outside World, no TV, or radio,this way you could live(for a while ) detached from reality."

Len, no doubt my anonymous stalker will be crying "liar! liar!" shortly because this won't suit his opinions but this is me. I have two degrees, a vocational one and a philosophy one. I have lived in 4 different places in the UK, including South London, and lived in a mono-culture, and very diverse cultures. I have lived and worked abroad. I have travelled the world, on business to many places, as a bog-standard tourist, and trekking around at altitude in pretty inhospitable places.

You say I must have lived in a remote village ... well, you're correct there. I have been up to base camp on Everest, having spent 2 months trekking from lowlands through remote villages. I've been in forest fires and ridden on the roof of buses hanging on to ropes. I've been around the Annapurnas, and up to Langtang. I've even watched bodies being cremated by the Bagmati.

I've walked around the Atlas and Anti-Atlas mountains in Morocco, living in Muslim villages along the way. I've been to a number of East African countries and seen extreme poverty first-hand. I've spent weeks in South Africa, seeing the post-Apartheid society there. I've been up Mount Kenya and Kilimanjaro. I've seen crocodiles in the wild and met wild rhino on foot out in the bush. I'm not that old, either, just very well travelled.

When I say the world is a wonderful place, I mean the entirety of it not just the people. High up in the mountains, if you look up at night the sky is completely black and without the light pollution we have here, there are thousands and thousands of stars visible. When I first saw that, I could barely breathe for the wonder of it. You know they're there but until you see it, the sheer majesty of it is not apparent.

No doubt that sort of stuff is evidence of spirituality to you and 'proof' of the existence of a creator god. To me, it just shows how impossibly insignificant we are here on our planet but how marvellous we are at the same time. Imagine what else is out there! This is stuff we can see and/or demonstrate without needing religious belief: the cosmos, sub-atomic particles, and the bits in between.

I know you struggle to understand what I mean when I say that we are just what we are, trapped as you are in your gloomy death religion thing. I can only say it again and again, we are capable of very bad things but we are capable of very good things too. There's no 'fallen' about us, this is what we are. We evolved into this from single cells over billions of years.

27 February 2011 at 08:44  
Anonymous len said...

The Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus Has set me free from the law of sin and death.

Your have got it exactly 100%reversed.

Once again you illustrate my point Danjo.

27 February 2011 at 09:09  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"The Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus Has set me free from the law of sin and death."

It doesn't stop you bleating the equivalent of "Repent! The end is nigh!" though. It's your mission, I suppose, spreading the gloom of your death-focused religion around. That's the creepy bit. We athesists need to counter that at every opportunity. "Love life! Do good if you can, it makes you happier in the long run! Enjoy it, it's the only life you have so make the most of it. It's marvellous when you forget the daily stuff and actually looking around. Don't, whatever you do, waste it like that old boy wearing the sandwich board over there looking miserable and forlorn, hoping to control your life for you."

27 February 2011 at 09:39  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Also, when you die having wasted your life following your man-made book, you'll be subject to the law of death like the rest of us. The cells in you brain will die, your consciousness will wink out, and almost certainly that'll be it as far as Len is concerned. But between being born and dying off, I suggest you revel in your consciousness. It's the inevitability of death that makes life so marvellous.

27 February 2011 at 09:46  
Blogger LeucipottomySpoon82 said...

"...and almost certainly that'll be it as far as Len is concerned."

No Danj0, that is nothing more than your opinion. Please don't state as 'certainty' something that is nothing more than your own personal wish that has no evidence to support it.

However, whatever you want to 'believe' is obviously entirely up to you. But I will leave you with these thoughts, words which are not my own but were posted by someone else some years ago in response to the claim that Christianity was a lie:


"Yes, a lie that would make men more loving, more patient, kinder, gentler, more humble, thoughtful, and peaceful. A lie that would lead to greater self-control, self-discipline, charity, and humanity. A lie that would bring upon the liar severe persecution and death. A lie that, the more they told it, the more odious and disgusting they would become to those people, people who didn't believe it. Yes, people tell and believe those kinds of lies all the time, don't they???

Adolf Hitler told lies, for very obvious reasons, and for the very reasons that people DO lie--selfish, self-aggrandizement. Nobody, NOBODY, invents the kind of lie that will make them hated by all of mankind, tortured, and killed, the very antithesis of the self-interest that is the true motive behind every real lie. Your reasoning is not only ahistorical; it's the most pathetic attempt at disproving the resurrection I've ever read in my life."

27 February 2011 at 13:34  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"Please don't state as 'certainty' something that is nothing more than your own personal wish that has no evidence to support it."

You quote my words and then don't actually read them properly. I said "almost certainly" which is significantly different to the straw man you construct out of it to make your own point.

"that has no evidence to support it."

There is no evidence to support the idea of a Christian afterlife either and parsimony suggests otherwise. Indeed, there is nothing to suggest an Islamic afterlife, luckily for you, or a Hindu one, or a Jehovah Witness one, or a Viking Valhalla one, or any other sort as it happens.

Just like the other animals with which we share our planet, we have consciousness while we live and then appear to lose it when we die. Just as one would expect since we have evolved in the same process as they have. It's sheer arrogance to think, or hope in your case, that we're somehow special and different.

Thank you for your non sequitur / quote too. I'm not sure what to make of it. No doubt there is something which you consider powerful in it, despite its lack of relevance, but it hasn't inspired me the way it seems to have you. Besides, it refers to Adolf Hitler in it and it is therefore instantly suspect as an argument for anything.

27 February 2011 at 14:30  
Blogger LeucipottomySpoon82 said...

Don't split hairs DanJ0, you and I know perfectly well what you meant with your 'almost certainly' comment. To quote Allen West, don't try to blow sunshine up my butt.

Let's suppose I was to say: almost certainly the Earth is flat, almost certainly the Earth is the centre of the Universe, almost certainly little elves operate the machinery of motor cars...and so on and so on. Don't start backtracking and tell me I misunderstood you.

There is no 'material' evidence for you, and that is all you look for, because your world-view is entirely materialistic.

Like you I too am a man of the world, (my accomplishments and abilities to dazzling to mention, apart from blurred vision, the ability to switch off my hearing when someone is nagging me, to look at tall buildings with a single glance, dance with two left feet...) Yes I have seen and experienced the sufferings and wonders of other people and cultures, from early childhood, so I'm not some small town guy with a small town mind.

There is evidence of a Christian after-life. You just don't want to see it and so do not try, because it doesn't fit your world-view.

And the quote I gave was simply for you to consider. You don't want to, as you 'believe' that your thoughts are superior to those of another belief. Fair enough. (Hitlers name was simply included as he had been part of the original discussion that I was quoting from, as I clearly stated in the first place, that it was a quote. Nothing more, no matter what your suspicions might be to the contrary)

27 February 2011 at 14:59  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"Don't split hairs DanJ0, you and I know perfectly well what you meant with your 'almost certainly' comment."

It's not splitting hairs. This sort of stuff matters, especially to an atheist. One has to be careful. If you messed up actually understanding what I wrote then simply admit it. It does nothing for your dignity now to splutter and foam.

27 February 2011 at 15:13  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"There is evidence of a Christian after-life. You just don't want to see it and so do not try, because it doesn't fit your world-view."

Ghosts are possible evidence of an afterlife, though not a Christian one I expect. Is there compelling evidence of the existence of ghosts? Warts, black cats, and cattle dying unexpected were evidence of witchcraft to some people. It's compelling evidence we want, sufficient evidence to underpin a theory and enable us to predict stuff. So, what's the evidence you have?

As for worldviews, yes it is true I have one of course. I'm a product of the society in which I was born and raised. Worldviews are built up with many layers, interwoven together, and supporting of each other. For sure, we tend to dismiss stuff if it seems incredible to our own worldview. That's the nature of them, religious ones included.

My own worldview is based on observation, the power of science, deduction and logic, and so on. That tells me that we have a long evolutionary history where we share common ancestors with apes, and earlier common ancestors with other mammals, and even earlier ones with other animals.

Animals like cats and dogs have some very similar traits to us, including consciousness and, as far as I can tell, emotions. Some apes appear to be self-aware and capable of simple language.

Don't you think it strange to imagine us to be special beings with 'spirits' when we can see animal traits like these around us and we have a evolutionary theory that explains it? Why veer off into some religious paradigm at the last minute when we have all of that at our fingertips?

In fact, why veer off towards a Christian one when we could go towards a Muslim one, or a Hindu one, or a Viking one? Why veer off at all towards a creator god which is benevolent to us specifically in the vast universe we are now aware of?

27 February 2011 at 15:36  
Anonymous len said...

Danjo,(PT 1)
As I have said elsewhere you will either meet Jesus Christ as saviour or Judge, at least now you cannot claim ignorance.
I have spent the greater part of my life as an atheist,never being brought up or indoctrinated into religion until I stumbled upon the Truth(Jesus Christ)so |I totally understand your resistance to the truth. After all to allow the truth into your Philosophy would totally destroy your illusions!
But truth is truth however much you deny it.
But to those who consistently refuse the truth Paul offers a warning.If you cannot accept the truth perhaps there are others who will!

27 February 2011 at 15:43  
Anonymous len said...

Danjo (PT 2)
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.<< 2 Corinthians 4:4 >>

So to know the truth you need to start from this position or the the following will result=

2 Thessalonians 2 (King James Version)

2 Thessalonians 2

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work...............

27 February 2011 at 15:51  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"Let's suppose I was to say: almost certainly the Earth is flat, almost certainly the Earth is the centre of the Universe"

Well, I would present the evidence of ships disappearing over the horizon, and the apparent movement of the stars around our heavens. That is, evidence which contradicts your claims.

Saying something is 'almost certain' is a statement of probability. I can understand why most people thought the earth was the centre of the universe. They didn't have the maths or the observation skills, and it tended to fit with their religious views so they didn't really question it.

The concept of an afterlife, unlike the shape or motion of the earth, is not something we initially get from observation of our reality. It's probably something that comes from being self-aware and seeing the inevitability death, inclining people to imagine something else. With a shared religious narrative, I suppose it can be seductive.

Perhaps there is an afterlife. Perhaps it is the Christian one, instead of the Hindu one. However, it doesn't seem very probable now we know about what is essentially the fact of evolution, does it? We have questioned it many times, too, and looked in vain for the evidence.

The evidence points to our just being advanced mammals and until we find contradictory evidence we ought to be carrying on with that assumption when constructing our societies if we are rational. I am waiting to be shocked by quantum physics in my lifetime and I am prepared to be shocked by religious revelation though I am certainly not expecting it at this point.

27 February 2011 at 15:56  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Len. Len. We have been through this before. I am not interested in your man-made book. As I have said a number of times, what is the point of quoting it at me? I consider it a literary masterpiece in its own way but a piece of fiction without merit. You're like the Jehovah Witnesses, trying to get everyone to pull themselves up by their bootlaces. Truth be told, hearing Bible quotes makes my skin crawl. Sinister, vile, creepy control-oriented stuff. Yuck.

27 February 2011 at 16:01  
Anonymous len said...

Danjo,you liken ourself to an animal?
Well that`s the Darwin (theory) taught as facts.
Animals have souls(body & mind) but no spirit.
Thereby lies the problem with the evolutionary theory= no spirit.So man becomes a mere animal.
So 'fallen man' with a dead spirit equates with an animal.?

Animals have an inbuilt God given instinct which serves them well, man was intended to have an inbuilt Holy Spirit, until man rejected God.
So what guides man?, His intellect programmed by a dead spirit totally opposed to God and Gods plan for redeeming him.
It takes a revelation to see this!

27 February 2011 at 16:07  
Anonymous len said...

Who is more foolish, the child afraid of the dark or the man afraid of the light? ~Maurice Freehill

27 February 2011 at 16:09  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"I totally understand your resistance to the truth. After all to allow the truth into your Philosophy would totally destroy your illusions!"

I experimented a few years ago over the internet with an American cell church member following what he called 'the Roman way'. I stopped after a while when I realised it was essentially a brainwashing technique, albeit a mild one. I have seen what superstition does to normal, fairly rational people and I want none of it.

If you have demonstrable truth, rather than your special kind of TrUtH which is the antithesis of that, then lay it out on the table. I am not resistant to it, I find that sort of stuff very interesting.

You know, a few years ago there was a phenomenon called the Toronto Blessing which made some of the religious very excited. I went to my local evangelical church to talk to the vicar there as my friend's parents went there each week. I wanted to see it, in the spirit of enquiry. He was a little rueful about it, saying he didn't 'actively encourage' it in his church. His reasons were quite interesting.

27 February 2011 at 16:15  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"Thereby lies the problem with the evolutionary theory= no spirit.So man becomes a mere animal."

There's no problem there. The problem is with your religion ideas: actual reality = no evidence of a spirit.

Anyway, do you really mean that non-Christians have no spirit? How do non-Christians 'hear god knocking' without one, as the analogy goes?

27 February 2011 at 16:18  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"Who is more foolish, the child afraid of the dark or the man afraid of the light? ~Maurice Freehill"

Very profound, I'm sure. If the light is from an oncoming train in a tunnel then he ought to be afraid of the light if that is the actual reality. If the dark is the cosy dark of a secure bedroom then he ought not to be afraid of it as there are almost certainly no monsters in the wardrobe despite what people with an over-active imagination think. That's what we do, we atheists, we look beyond what sounds profound and assess the reality. Hope this helps.

27 February 2011 at 16:23  
Anonymous len said...

A train travelling at 100mph takes a mile to stop so you had better hope the driver has exceptional vision or you can run faster than 100mph Danjo.

Better still keep out of tunnels!

You Atheists make up your own reality and ignore the Truth which I believe is just a little dishonest intellectually.Still whatever you are comfortable with, whatever fits you own particular World view?

27 February 2011 at 18:25  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"You Atheists make up your own reality and ignore the Truth which I believe is just a little dishonest intellectually.Still whatever you are comfortable with, whatever fits you own particular World view?2

Len, exactly what reality do we make up? Specifics please, if you are casting around phrases like 'dishonest intellectually'.

27 February 2011 at 18:39  
Blogger LeucipottomySpoon82 said...

Bluster, bluster, splutter and foam.

I really don't understand why you come here you know. All you do is keep trying to preach to people, on a Christian blog, that they are wrong and you are correct, so you've obviously not come here to learn anything. Reminds me of the Zen story about the person whose cup was full. If you are so certain of what you believe, and that you are right and we are all wrong, then why come here?

There is plenty of evidence for a life beyond this one. Look for it and you will find it. And no, you do not have to suspend intelligence to do so. I spent more than thirty years looking for the truth (it is remarkably easy to discriminate between teachings/claims that are inherently dishonest and those few that aren't) and found too that you don't have to go halfway round the world to find it. It is quite literally right beside each and every one of us.

I have spent my entire life devoted to truth, logic, and reason. I have now though reached the stage where I have grown tired of trying to help people see things, when a lot of them don't really want to see things at all. If you wanted to know the answers then don't spend so much time on this blog, but look. As I did. You seem to like philosophy, which is a pity.

Robert Griffiths - "If we need an atheist for a debate, I go to the Philosophy Department. The Physics Department isn't much use."

In the sciences, Physics is king. But then I am biased.

27 February 2011 at 21:57  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

So, in summary, no evidence of a Christian afterlife from you LeucipottomySpoon82 despite what you claimed earlier, and nothing from Len so far about how we atheists are making up our reality despite it threatening to leave his integrity in tatters if he does a quiet runner. It's not really a surprise in either case, truth be told.

27 February 2011 at 22:12  
Blogger LeucipottomySpoon82 said...

I must have misread what you said as I didn't see it as you asking for evidence, merely your own thoughts on the matter.

But I wouldn't have given them to you anyway, because all you want to do is mock them. You'd mock anything that was said on this subject, because all you are looking for are reasons not to believe. "Cast not your pearls before swine" as the saying goes. And before you jump to conclusions and make assumptions again, I am not calling you a pig.

Don't waste your time arguing with people. Simply follow the evidence, as I did. But then, I didn't make my mind up on anything beforehand, did I? And that's the difference between those that are really searching and those that aren't.

27 February 2011 at 22:38  
Blogger LeucipottomySpoon82 said...

Sorry I forgot to add:

Bluster. bluster, splutter and foam.

27 February 2011 at 22:44  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Leucipottomy..@22.38) said Simply follow the evidence, as I did. ..., I didn't make my mind up on anything beforehand, did I? And that's the difference between those that are really searching and those that aren't .
Well said, sir. That's a guiding principle for identifying trolls around here -- as opposed to those who are genuine victims of degraded education.

2000 years ago, Christ warned about those pearls and swine. Gosh, how we've advanced since then! [irony tag] We can't even stop casting ourselves before these traitor politicians!

28 February 2011 at 01:05  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"There is evidence of a Christian after-life. You just don't want to see it and so do not try, because it doesn't fit your world-view."

Still no evidence.

And out comes Matthew 7:6 as a wall to hide behind. You won't be the first to trot that one out when pushed into a corner. It's from the corner in every case too.

If there is evidence then fess it up otherwise you're fooling no-one waving a vague hand around and hoping a wink will suffice.

"But then, I didn't make my mind up on anything beforehand, did I?"

I'm a late developer on the atheist front, it took me quite a long time and much questioning to get to this as it goes. It was Christians who gave me the final push too. Some of the most wicked people I know are Christians, you see. I expect Matthew 5:14 and I'm almost always disappointed.

28 February 2011 at 01:06  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Hey, non mouse is here to give support again. That's your job around here, isn't it?

28 February 2011 at 01:08  
Blogger LeucipottomySpoon82 said...

Bluster, bluster, sputter and foam. Here I go again.

Don't be lazy DanJ0. And you aren't so hot on answering questions either when it suits you. Why is it one rule for you and another for everyone else? But I've already told you why I expect you to do your own work. Sick to death of people making claims that they want to do this or that, learn this or that, and then suddenly finding themselves oh so busy when faced with the actual prospect of putting words into action.

Every single thing I tell you will be met with denial and mockery. After all, that's the only reason you come to this blog isn't it? To deny people what they believe and mock it.

"Some of the most wicked people I know are Christians" You must have a small circle of acquaintances then if that's the case. And more to the point, shows your real purpose for being here. You hate Christians and Christianity. Perhaps you ought to take your hatred and prejudices to a website more to your liking and where you'd meet much more approval, and you can all, metaphorically, pat each other on the back whilst proclaiming how open-minded and tolerant you all are.

28 February 2011 at 01:23  
Blogger D. Singh said...

DanJO said:

'My own worldview is based on observation, the power of science, deduction and logic, and so on'.

In other words he can only think inside the space and time paradigm.

The 'factual' paradigm.

He uses instruments to verify that which is in space and time only - as his instrumnets are located in space and time.

God is infinite.

28 February 2011 at 07:58  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

LeucipottomySpoon82, still no evidence. Let's face it, there isn't any is there? You're firing blanks. All fur coat and no knickers. Showy, but no substance to back it.

There's nothing wrong with there being no evidence as such, it's just claiming there is in a debate and failing to produce even a whiff of it that is intellectually dishonest.

Personal religious belief is fine, irrational though it is, based on passed on myths and no evidence. Everyone has beliefs of one sort or another for which they find they have no basis in reality. It's the reach of them that's important.

No-one cares too much if someone won't sit in seat 13, or walk under a ladder, or worries about ripping up chain letters. But if people want to extend their irrational beliefs into political power then they need to be shown for what they are by people affected by them.

As for taking my comments elsewhere, that's between His Grace and me. No doubt I will move on, or just stop commenting at some point. But it is typical of people with irrational beliefs that they don't want them to be challenged, and want to huddle together with the like minded for comfort and protection from criticism.

That's where intellectual honesty comes in. To keep truth alive and to hone one's arguments and justifications, one has to expose them to people who don't agree and test them out. Huddle away LeucipottomySpoon82, and snipe away from the bushes 'non mouse' when things get intellectually tough for you.

28 February 2011 at 08:15  
Blogger D. Singh said...

DanJO said

'There's nothing wrong with there being no evidence as such,...'

Nonsense.

28 February 2011 at 08:25  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

D Singh "He uses instruments to verify that which is in space and time only - as his instrumnets are located in space and time."

Seems fair enough to me. The philosophical limits of science are well understood. That's not to say that I don't entertain the possibility that there are other realities beyond the one in which we're contained. But entertaining it is one thing and adjusting one's life significantly to take account of other imagined realities is quite another.

If alternate realities matter to each other then there may be one or more interfaces between them, beyond the creative process, and that's what interests me with what the religious say. Why should we think that a creator god which is benevolent in particular to homo sapiens exists to maintain our reality when our reality could just as easily be the unintended by-product of another reality?

What you put forward could be used as an argument for agnosticism, by which I mean a-gnosticism rather than just wholly thinking about theism. I'm really quite comfortable with the idea of a creator who expects nothing from us, or with the idea that we will never know of stuff beyond our own reality.

28 February 2011 at 08:29  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

D Singh "Nonsense."

Well, you're certainly reducing the risk of being shot at there. I just briefly saw the top of your hat behind the trench wall before it disappeared again. Well done.

28 February 2011 at 08:32  
Blogger D. Singh said...

DanJO said:

'Seems fair enough to me'.

Are you then just talking to yourself?

28 February 2011 at 08:40  
Blogger D. Singh said...

DanJO said:

'So, what's the evidence you have?'

He wants evidence that is valid and can be confirmed by his own space-time world-view which cannot by definition accept that God is infinite: as his world-view is limited by space and time and hey presto as far as he is concerned 'No evidence!' and he can then go back to believing that his fathers were chimpanzees.

28 February 2011 at 08:48  
Blogger D. Singh said...

So fellas! Why don't you give him some evidence from within space and time?

Is there evidence for the Roman invasion of Britain?

28 February 2011 at 08:50  
Blogger D. Singh said...

DanJO said:

'Why should we think that a creator god which is benevolent in particular to homo sapiens...'

'Benevolent'?

Explain?

I used to be where you are now. I would have had no problem spitting in his face.

Why don't you cease your boring undergraduate musings and study some more before mocking Him that we are in love with?

Would you like it if I mocked your wife?

28 February 2011 at 09:29  
Blogger LeucipottomySpoon82 said...

Bluster, bluster, splutter and foam.

DanJ0, you accuse me of being intellectually dishonest when, via neurological and scientific evidence (empirical data), it can be proven that is something which for me is impossible.

You do not wish to learn, as those that do will listen. You don't listen, you preach and dictate the terms under which people may tell you what you want to know. If they don't meet your requirements and whims then according to you it is their fault. Additionally, you twist and reshape things that I write in order to make them appear to have a different meaning to that which was intended.

You refuse to listen to my reasons for not providing you with your plateful of evidence. I have never understood people that are so intellectually lazy they have to have other people do their research for them.

OK, I'll bite, briefly. Any half decent physicist can explain to you that the idea the Universe created itself from nothing is not supported by any observable data whatsoever. Going on from something D. Singh just mentioned, there is no empirical data for Julius Caesars invasion of the British Isles. Prove to me that the Battle of Waterloo took place, using reproducable scientific data alone. There is so much more - historical, archaeological, scientific i.e. empirical, experiential. Just do what I did. I didn't expect others to do the work for me. I got off my butt and looked. Some of the evidence was not what I had expected to find. But find it I did and so adjusted my position accordingly. And you have the cheek to call me intellectually dishonest? Give me strength.

28 February 2011 at 10:27  
Blogger D. Singh said...

DanJo

Why don't you in the privacy of your study just ask Him to show you the truth? It'll just be Between Him and you? Ask Him if he exists and if He does to show Himself to you.

Then you won't have to climb over the 'Wall' to get in here.

You could follow us sheep through the 'Small Gate'. Walk with us along the narrow path - He might even show you where the 'iron crosses' grow.

It is only through pain that we can dance Adam's dance backwards.

28 February 2011 at 15:18  
Anonymous Oswin said...

L'Spoon @ 10:27 :

I doffs m'cap to you Sir, excellent!

28 February 2011 at 17:28  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"he can then go back to believing that his fathers were chimpanzees."

Crikey, D Singh, that mistake in understanding goes all the way back to Samuel Wilberforce.

"Why don't you cease your boring undergraduate musings and study some more before mocking Him that we are in love with? Would you like it if I mocked your wife?"

I am not an undergrad and I refer you to His Grace's Bottom Line. Here's some of it:

"Freedom of speech must be tolerated, and everyone living in the United Kingdom must accept that they may be insulted about their own beliefs, or indeed be offended, and that is something which they must simply endure, not least because some suffer fates far worse."

So get over it.

28 February 2011 at 19:11  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

LeucipottomySpoon82: "Additionally, you twist and reshape things that I write in order to make them appear to have a different meaning to that which was intended."

You mean like when you wrote this: "Please don't state as 'certainty' something that is nothing more than your own personal wish that has no evidence to support it." despite what I clearly wrote?

"You refuse to listen to my reasons for not providing you with your plateful of evidence. I have never understood people that are so intellectually lazy they have to have other people do their research for them."

For goodness'sake. It's your assertion so you back it up or it remains just an assertion. This is basic stuff, you can hardly weasel your way out of it like that. You jumped into the discussion, guns ablaze, and this is the consequence.

"There is so much more - historical, archaeological, scientific i.e. empirical, experiential."

Of a Christian afterlife? That's the topic. An afterlife. Non-corporeal existence after death. Not whether someone called Jesus existed, or that people eventually wrote down some stories verbally passed down.

"Prove to me that the Battle of Waterloo took place, using reproducable scientific data alone."

I could show you the evidence that supports the history. I expect we have uniforms, weapons, personal letters, eye witness accounts, related art, grave memorials, parliament records, records of the sort of historical consequences one would expect from the battle, supply requistions, concordant records from multiple countries with different agendas, descriptions of the battlefield, archeological evidence, changes to regimental traditions, and so on. Cross referenced and mutually supportive.

More importantly, there is nothing unusual or unexpected about there being a battle between the nations involved. Nothing supernatural, i.e. actually impossible in nature as we know it. Nothing that requires an enormous inverted pyramid of literally fantastical supposition, leaps of wild imagination, and choosing one of many offered theistic traditions to support it.

28 February 2011 at 19:44  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

By the way, LeucipottomySpoon82, what do you think of the so-called Buddha Boy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_Bahadur_Bomjon

Intriguing, huh?

28 February 2011 at 19:58  
Blogger LeucipottomySpoon82 said...

Bluster, bluster, splutter and foam.

D. Singh made a perfectly reasonable request for you to stop mocking someone he loves and your response is "So get over it."? I guess that exposes your mentality then even more than anything I could say. The last time someone described Christians to me as the most wicked people they had ever known, he shortly afterwards gave me coffee laced with bleach. I guess you would have been having a nice chuckle over that.

"You jumped into the discussion, guns ablaze" No I didn't. I made a request for you to stop claiming as a certainty something that was not. In fact, since you came to this site you have done nothing but claim that there is no life beyond this one. You were the one that tried to weasel your way out of that.

"I could show you the evidence that supports the history. I expect we have uniforms, weapons, personal letters, eye witness accounts, related art, grave memorials, parliament records, records of the sort of historical consequences one would expect from the battle, supply requistions, concordant records from multiple countries with different agendas, descriptions of the battlefield, archeological evidence, changes to regimental traditions, and so on. Cross referenced and mutually supportive."

None of that is reproducible scientific evidence. And if you think it is then you clearly don't understand the difference between different types of evidence.

And pray tell what is wrong with me asking you to do your own research rather than simply take my word for anything? Nothing at all, except that you wouldn't be able to mock and deride it without an audience would you?

"Literally fantastical supposition." Nope. You don't know the subject, and you certainly are not a historian.

"Leaps of wild imagination." Nope. Guesswork and imagination on your part. You still don't know the subject under discussion.

With regards the Wikipedia link. I make it a point to never reference Wikipedia at all. It is unreliable, has poor standards, biased, unsuitable for scholarly citation, inaccurate...I could go on.

@ Oswin, why thank you sir, lol.

28 February 2011 at 20:59  
Anonymous len said...

Atheists seem to be more fixated with God than a lot of Christians.'

Why keep attacking someone they believe doesn`t exist?

Why get so riled by the Word of God?

Why the attempts to demolish every hint of God, and the attempts to erase every memory of Him?

This speaks volumes to me.

Perhaps they are scared that He might just exist?

That God might just exist outside the pieces of knowledge that they have?

People have been killing Christians, burning Bibles, for thousands of years but they just cannot kill the Spirit,in fact it grows stronger through opposition.Gods purposes will be fulfilled and no man can stop it.Satan did all in his power to stop the Gospel but it spread despite that , the Gospel is going into places as never before, into China,Russia,into Arab countries, many Muslims are coming to Christ.
The Gospel is an unstoppable force!

28 February 2011 at 22:44  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"None of that is reproducible scientific evidence. And if you think it is then you clearly don't understand the difference between different types of evidence."

That was not my intention. As I said at the start of it: "I could show you the evidence that supports the history". I can find evidence that supports the history around and shortly after the time of Pilate too.

That isn't evidence of a Christian afterlife, it's evidence of some events, culture and politics, and beliefs. Stonge Henge and other pre-historic monuments may provide some evidence of the beliefs and rituals of the people who lived at that time too.

Knowing what we know about stone circles, seeing particular carvings in the stone, and recognising the apparent importance of the sun and seasons by the alignment of their monuments, we can surmise stuff about their beliefs. However, what we aren't doing is finding evidence that the sun is a god. You can see the difference, right?

I have provided a link about the Buddha Boy and I did so for a reason. This is a story which started in the past but is also a current phenomenon with eye witnesses alive today. You may rather conveniently dismiss Wikipedia as you wish but I expect you know why I brought the subject up. There are many other sources of information for this if you have an open mind.

There are thousands of people in Nepal who think this is a real phenomenon, and perhaps it is. However, Nepal has a strong Buddhist influence in its culture and it is full of prayer flags, prayer wheels, stupas and the like. People devote their entire lives to living a Buddhist existence in monasteries. I've been there many times as it goes. It's quite natural there for a story like this to take off. Hundreds of years down the line, I expect people will be sifting through the historical evidence, including the various eye witness accounts.

Is the Buddha Boy a true Buddhist phenomenon do you think, LeucipottomySpoon82? Is the evidence compelling for the Buddhist belief in reincarnation and the realms of being?

1 March 2011 at 07:07  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"Perhaps they are scared that He might just exist?"

That's plain silly. Why would an atheist trash the claims of believers of any of the plethora of gods available if they thought the claims might actually be true and were scared about the possibility? Bizarre.

"Why keep attacking someone they believe doesn`t exist?"

Well, I don't believe Allah exists. Why don't I just let Muslims collectively get on with their beliefs without criticism [1]? Why don't the people here do the same instead of continuing the theme of anti-Muslim hatred that is expressed almost daily?

[1] This is not the only place I comment on religion lest one or two people pipe up at this point.

1 March 2011 at 07:20  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"I guess you would have been having a nice chuckle over that."

Why on earth would you guess that? Based on your meeting one very unpleasant individual? Man, that says far more about you than me.

LeucipottomySpoon82, when I was at university I ran the Community Action Group if you know what that is. When I lived in London, I did voluntary work with a charity there every week. I am currently involved in charity fund raising activities at work. I voluntarily provide 'first response' overnight to some of the elderly people in my immediate neighbourhood, picking them up off the floor after falls, doing first aid, calling ambulances, informing relatives etc. I do basic DIY jobs for them, too.

I'm an atheist and I don't believe that all that doesn't add to my list of good deeds for rewards or otherwise in an afterlife. I'm not doing it because a god would want me to either. It's basic human kindness, and essentially altruistic. Chuckle over it?

1 March 2011 at 07:39  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"D. Singh made a perfectly reasonable request for you to stop mocking someone he loves and your response is "So get over it."? I guess that exposes your mentality then even more than anything I could say."

I refer you to His Grace's Bottom Line too. This is the discussion area for topics raised. Some of the stuff written in this area about Muslims, gay people, atheists, and so on is absolutely dreadful. And mostly by Christians. I simply live with it, and push back when I choose. Afterall, I could just stop reading. D Singh has not been the epitome of Christian 'love' in his comments by any stretch. If he is so prissy that he can't cope with robust discussion about topics which he feels strongly then I advise him to switch his PC off.

1 March 2011 at 07:46  
Blogger D. Singh said...

DanJO

‘Crikey, D Singh, that mistake in understanding goes all the way back to Samuel Wilberforce’.

It is you who believes through evolutionary theory that you descended from the monkeys.

You state: ‘I am not an undergrad…’

And then in a later post you write about your time at university.

What is clear is this: your moral development was arrested during your undergraduate days.

It clearly shows in your writings: grow up.

1 March 2011 at 07:52  
Blogger LeucipottomySpoon82 said...

I specifically asked you for reproducible scientific evidence alone, and you gave me other stuff instead. Therefore my criticism of your comment was entirely valid.

What I have been demonstrating to you is the fact that, because you lay such store on scientific data with regards your beliefs, not everything you accept rests upon scientific evidence.

I should have made myself clearer where your use of the word 'certainly' was concerned. From a scientific perspective there is nothing even remotely measurable where the afterlife is concerned, therefore it is wholly inaccurate to reliably use the word 'certainly' no matter what qualification it has been given. The belief that there is no life beyond this one, and it is only a belief and not even remotely a scientific fact, rests upon nothing. You might say that the reverse is true, that there is no scientific evidence that there is one. And you'd be correct, at which point other types of evidence come into play.

Now do you see what I have been getting at?

With regards Wikipedia, there is nothing 'convenient' about me rejecting it at all. My criticisms of it rest upon secure foundations and I know that I am not alone in this.

1 March 2011 at 07:55  
Blogger LeucipottomySpoon82 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1 March 2011 at 08:08  
Blogger LeucipottomySpoon82 said...

Some of the stuff written in this area about Muslims, gay people, atheists, and so on is absolutely dreadful. And mostly by Christians."

I don't find much that's dreadful, but then I have my funny hat on a lot of the time. You see what you want to see.

"If he is so prissy that he can't cope with robust discussion about topics which he feels strongly then I advise him to switch his PC off."
And the same applies to you.

I can find similarly dreadful comments, in fact they are truly dreadful, on muslim websites, non-Christian website, so called neo-pagan websites. I can give you specific examples, from experience, of appalling dreadful behaviour by gay people, but it doesn't have me hating all gays. Just be rather more wary of them than before. Hatred and cruelty is all around us.

1 March 2011 at 08:11  
Blogger D. Singh said...

DanJO

He asks for evidence located in space and time so that it is acceptable to his materialist world-view.

The posters – post evidence located in space and time: for example, a memorial to Pontius Pilate (recently discovered) suggesting that the Bible is telling the truth that Pontius Pilate was Prefect of Judea at the time of Christ (the further suggestion being that Christ entered our space and time).

DanJO then asks for evidence of an ‘afterlife’ that is evidence for that which is located beyond space and time and therefore unacceptable to him for it will not be in accord with his materialist world-view.

Round and round he goes: chasing his own tail and inviting others daft enough to play this nursery game.

1 March 2011 at 08:59  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"It is you who believes through evolutionary theory that you descended from the monkeys."

You profoundly misunderstand the theory of evolution by natural selection if you think that.

"You state: ‘I am not an undergrad…’ And then in a later post you write about your time at university."

Yes. I am a graduate several times over. Hope this helps.

"It clearly shows in your writings: grow up."

If you think attempting to patronise will reduce me to the level you wish to feel comfortable then you are quite wrong.

Arguments stand on their own merits, if you disagree with them or think them wrong then feel free to argue them down.

1 March 2011 at 09:40  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

LeucipottomySpoon82: "And the same applies to you."

But I am not asking people to desist, unlike you and D Singh.

"I don't find much that's dreadful, but then I have my funny hat on a lot of the time. You see what you want to see."

Well, I don't find what I write to be particularly dreadful either.

I have a visceral response to certain religious language, which I vocalise periodically when I am overly subjected to it, and I am critical of the foundations of the arguments used to justify the continued political influence of Christianity in the UK and to morally criticise some members of our population. I try to argue in the spirit of debate when I see that.

The purpose of the blog is to present opinions based on a religio-political viewpoint and reasonable comments and discussion are invited. I rather hope His Grace expects contrary opinions, sometimes robustly presented, provided they are not merely or overly abusive. Many times here I have simply moved on from replies to me when I have judged they look to descend into largely pointless abuse.

Perhaps you are just seeing what you want to see? I suggest you put your funny hat on more often.

1 March 2011 at 10:01  
Blogger D. Singh said...

DanJo said:

'You profoundly misunderstand the theory of evolution by natural selection if you think that'.

Then tell us if matter has always existed.

And then tell us about the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

1 March 2011 at 10:15  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

LeucipottomySpoon82: "I should have made myself clearer where your use of the word 'certainly' was concerned."

That'll be 'almost certainly' if you want to be properly accurate about it. That is: very, very highly probable given what we know so far. Carefully chosen words.

So, evidence of an afterlife. Is it really not possible? Well yes if one is certain that our reality is solely one of materialism. I am not certain of that. Even if reality was not one of materialism then I don't think it necessarily leads to the likelihood of a human afterlife as one has to make many more suppositions.

But if one doesn't belive in materialism then what about that? How about evidence of past lives through regression techniques for example? What about (say) the spirit of Samuel and the Witch of Endor?

"Now do you see what I have been getting at?"

Oh I know what you should have said at the start because I know the basics of Christianity. I made a comment on another article thread about getting to the core of this alternative evidence but it had no takers. That, too, is something that can be examined for elements of truth albeit not using the scientific method.

1 March 2011 at 10:27  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Are you gish-galloping now, D Singh?

The laws of physics are what we observe in our reality. I have no idea what existed before our universe came into being. I don't know if that is even a reasonable question for a human to ask. Perhaps it expands and contracts continually, and the laws are in some way different each time? Perhaps our universe is the product of a containing universe and its natural processes? Perhaps we live in a multiverse but are only conscious at any given time of a universe? I don't know. What I do know though is that I am happy to say I don't know. I am also happy to say that I don't personally need to imagine a creator god along Christian lines to fill in that lack of knowledge.

So, back to your notion that chimpanzees or monkeys are the ancestors of our species according to the theory of evolution by natural selection. Any revelations from D Singh on that yet?

1 March 2011 at 10:40  
Blogger D. Singh said...

DanJO said:

‘The laws of physics are what we observe in our reality’.

No you don’t observe them – it is their material effects you observe.

‘I have no idea what existed before our universe came into being’.

On the one-hand you claim to ‘observe the laws of physics’ (the Second Law of Thermodynamics being part of the laws of physics) and then you shield yourself on the basis of ignorance.

‘So, back to your notion that chimpanzees or monkeys are the ancestors of our species according to the theory of evolution by natural selection. Any revelations from D Singh on that yet?’

I have never, as a Judaeo-Christian, remotely suggested that chimpanzees could be our ancestors. I reject evolutionary theory.

1 March 2011 at 10:58  
Blogger William said...

Danj0

Your modus operandi is:

1) Establish your verdict
2) Setup kangaroo court on blog
3) Only admit evidence that agrees with verdict

Your purpose in posting to this blog is to have Christians laughed out of court.

If, as you say, you know the basics of Christianity then you know perfectly well that there is evidence of an afterlife.

It is not truth you seek but revenge.

Hope that helps.

1 March 2011 at 11:10  
Blogger LeucipottomySpoon82 said...

"Very, very highly probable given what we know so far."

You're doing it again. Ascribing probability to something which is currently completely unknowable by any scientific standards.

Nothing in this life is 'real' if that is what you mean. Everything is dying or eroding right from the word 'go'. The chair I am sitting in wasn't always a chair, and one day it will be something else again. Everything is constantly changing, our bodies getting older and fading away. The walls of the building you are in were not always wall, but were separate other materials at one time, and one day those walls will no longer be there. Where is material reality then? In our minds. Everything, in a simple sense, is nothing more than various densities of atoms which are energy, nothing more.

"Oh I know what you should have said at the start because I know the basics of Christianity. I made a comment on another article thread about getting to the core of this alternative evidence but it had no takers. That, too, is something that can be examined for elements of truth albeit not using the scientific method."

So rather than honest enquiry (which I mistakenly assumed you to be doing) you were being deliberately obtuse? I see. That, in my world, is deception. In plain English I call it lying. Why do people put so much emphasis on their egos? This is something that has always puzzled me, as truth is more important than anyone's ego, to me. It reminds me of an argument I had with an author called who claimed he had a Doctorate, but whose work barely passed muster at an Undergraduate level. I called him a liar and a fraud, because that is what he was (and also was later proven to be, I might add), just so that he could benefit financially from people that subscribed to his particular style of pap. He had a habit of being highly selective with the evidence he used to support his arguments, completely turning his back on any evidence which scotched his theories completely. What amazed me even more were the amount of supporters he had that were quite prepared to lie openly and provably in his support just to win an argument.

So there we go and here we are. You deceive, and only accept evidence that supports your argument with regards this life, the Universe, and everything (including 42). But the minute it goes against what you personally want to believe it suddenly becomes unacceptable.

It would have helped considerably if you had been honest and open from the outset, as I have been. But like I said, I have never laid much store on ego, whereas others seem to think the world revolves around theirs.

See you around Mr DanJ0, and I'd thank you for all the fish but you didn't give me any. This thread is now yours, and I won't be returning to it.

P.S. And William has put it far more succinctly than I did.

1 March 2011 at 11:17  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"I have never, as a Judaeo-Christian, remotely suggested that chimpanzees could be our ancestors. I reject evolutionary theory."

Indeed. You do however think I do because I accept the theory. That is, you seem to think the theory indicates that. Which is nonsense. Nonsense usually spread by creationists, to boot.

1 March 2011 at 11:37  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Thanks for that William.

"Your purpose in posting to this blog is to have Christians laughed out of court."

No. It is to argue why the beliefs of Christianity (or any of the other religions) should not be used as justifications in our legislature to constrain non-Christians. That is, I accept that religious belief is usually a core part of one's identity and it is therefore important but that it has the basis of a personal superstition as far as other people are concerned. Of course, superstitutions are sometimes laughable to people who don't hold them, that much is true. Just to be clear, I nevertheless agree wholeheartedly that people have a right to freedom of belief.

1 March 2011 at 11:47  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

LeucipottomySpoon82: "See you around Mr DanJ0, and I'd thank you for all the fish but you didn't give me any. This thread is now yours, and I won't be returning to it."

Lovely swan song. It ticks almost all the boxes of a forum flounce. Long, a bit tedious, some abuse, some self-justification, a final erroneous portrayal of the enemy, and a good dose of bitterness. My only criticism is the lack of shouty CAPITALISATION. Well done, you.

1 March 2011 at 11:58  
Blogger William said...

Danj0

I have no qualms about being laughed out of your court. I was merely pointing out that it is your court setup by you for you and I do not recognise its jurisdiction.

"It is to argue why the beliefs of Christianity (or any of the other religions) should not be used as justifications in our legislature to constrain non-Christians"

Then what should be used to justify the legislative constraint of non-Christians?

"I accept that religious belief is usually a core part of one's identity"

You are most gracious.

Just to be clear, I nevertheless agree wholeheartedly that people have a right to freedom of belief.

Please. You are too kind.

1 March 2011 at 16:05  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"Then what should be used to justify the legislative constraint of non-Christians?"

Social values and consequences i.e. measurable or arguable real-world things. Basically, pretty much as we operate now but preferably without the religious artefacts like the Lords Spiritual.

1 March 2011 at 17:27  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"I have no qualms about being laughed out of your court. I was merely pointing out that it is your court setup by you for you and I do not recognise its jurisdiction."

Thanks for that, too. A fine addition to debate.

1 March 2011 at 17:29  
Anonymous Oswin said...

DanJo @ 11:58

A bit like yours eh?

1 March 2011 at 18:43  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"A bit like yours eh?"

I am happily presenting arguments on my own, albeit ones that go down like a lead balloon to the likes of you. Compare that with the pointless sniping and mutual backslapping going on in the background between the usual suspects.

1 March 2011 at 18:57  
Anonymous len said...

What this whole discussion/debate/seems to reveal to me is that someone cannot be 'saved' unless they have a genuine desire to know the Truth about the Gospel and God regardless of all else! The Truth must matter to one more than personal tastes and desires, even possibly more than life itself!
If you approach even the thought of God with preconceived prejudices and ideas these form a barrier, a stronghold, in your mind which act as a 'filter'only allowing what one wants through.A Truth which seems threatening will be discarded because if accepted would mean to change ones entire World view.
This is obviously too much for some people!
The price for following Jesus Christ is death to oneself,a price many will not pay!
One self dying, another self resurrected, the most sombre and joyful experience humanity can enjoy.
But of those who followed Jesus many turned back, the price for them was too high!.

1 March 2011 at 19:03  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"If you approach even the thought of God with preconceived prejudices and ideas these form a barrier, a stronghold, in your mind which act as a 'filter'only allowing what one wants through.A Truth which seems threatening will be discarded because if accepted would mean to change ones entire World view."

As I expect the majority of Christians have Christian parents or have had Christian influences, it's difficult to see how they could not at least have preconceived ideas.

I'm going for the St Paul approach myself, although persecuting Christians is probably too strong a description for merely challenging Christians on a blog despite the trauma D Singh apparently feels. I just need to book a trek to Damascus now.

1 March 2011 at 19:20  
Anonymous len said...

Danjo, I wish you well on your Journey!

1 March 2011 at 20:45  
Anonymous Oswin said...

DanJo @ 18:57: beware of any tendency towards martyrdom unless wearing the right trousers; and even then...

from ''the likes'' of me :o)

2 March 2011 at 16:23  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

I have no idea what you are going on about I'm afraid, Oswin. But no doubt god's amazing love is shining through you here in a Matthew 5:14 stylee nevertheless.

2 March 2011 at 18:45  

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