What are British ‘core values’?

A few months ago, Tim Montgomerie initiated a debate about the definition of ‘Mainstream Conservatism’ which was to engross some of the nation’s leading political journalists. In the context of the present Conservative-LibDem coalition, it was a worthwhile exercise if only to attempt to dispel the possibility of ‘coalition candidates’ at the next general election by distilling what Conservatives are supposed to believe in.
But there is a rather more pressing need for a definition of a concept which transcends party politics and political philosophy. David Cameron’s Munich speech ventured into territory where all British prime ministers dare to tread, sometimes with predictable results.
But they dare because they must. And if they do not, their premiership falls into historical oblivion and their name into political obscurity.
Thus, in recent years, we observe that ‘Britishness’ for Margaret Thatcher was about individual responsibility and industry – the Protestant work ethic; the place of the United Kingdom in the world; the maintenance of democracy; the flourishing of liberty; the importance of the family; respect for Parliament, Church and Monarchy; and a patriotism which was not ashamed to fly the Union Flag.
For John Major it was concerned with warm beer and cricket on the village green; ‘back to basics’; traditional values.
For Tony Blair it was about social justice and rebranding for the postmodern era: ‘Cool Britannia’; of standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the United States in support of an interventionist foreign policy to rid the world of evil dictators.
For Gordon Brown it was... well, he never quite got there, but he did talk an awful lot about his varlyooz of tolerance and fairness.
David Cameron has yet to synthesise his views, but in 2007 he observed: “It is mainstream Britain which needs to integrate more with the British Asian way of life, not the other way around.” On social cohesion, he said that ‘integration is a two-way street. If we want to remind ourselves of British values – hospitality, tolerance and generosity to name just three – there are plenty of British Muslims ready to show us what those things really mean’.
He was, of course, on the campaign trail, but he could scarcely have said anything more provocative to the indigenous peoples of these islands than to laud Islam as the paragon of family and community values to which all Christians must aspire.
And yet he was right to observe that many British Asians do value what it means to be British far more than many of those with a genetic heritage going back millennia, and they have achieved an admirable level of integration within just one generation. The British are a mongrel people, with antecedents including inter alia Jutes, Picts, Celts, Romans, Saxons, Vikings and Normans. While they were not always welcomed by the natives, integration has mostly resulted in social cohesion. This history establishes that there is no political or theological reason why those who now immigrate from Asia and other continents of the world should not be capable of the same.
But there are two significant differences: firstly, the sheer numbers of those now immigrating threaten the creation of ‘ghettos’, as Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali has termed them, and others are finding; and, secondly, the desire of some groups to maintain a distinct cultural and religious identity creates resentment which causes social disturbances.
The consensus of all the main political parties is that modern Britain has been enriched by ethnic pluralism and enlightened by theological ecumenism and European political union. But these developments have caused something of an identity crisis in the nation, spawning numerous books and articles which seek to define what is meant by ‘Britishness’. These have tended to evidence a lack of confidence in national identity or express diminishing trust in the foundations of the Christian heritage of the United Kingdom. The reasons have been attributed to a variety of causes, including relativism and multiculturalism, both of which have been exacerbated by the political process of devolution.
The proportion of people who consider themselves to be British has fallen over a decade from 52 per cent in 1997 to 44 per cent in 2007. Significantly, there are considerable variations between the constituent countries of the UK: while 43 per cent of English identify with being ‘British’, only 27 per cent of Welsh consider themselves to be so, and only 18 per cent of Scots. It is perhaps telling and indicative of the extent of the political fragmentation, and sensitivities over devolution and national identity, that this research did not extend to Northern Ireland at all.
First and foremost, Britishness is about tolerance: it is the attribute which has enabled five million immigrants and their descendants to comprise a tenth of the country’s population. This pluralism is a priceless ingredient of the nation’s culture, and it is incumbent upon people of all creeds, philosophies, ethnicities and political ideologies to tolerate those with whom they do not agree.
But British culture cannot be cohesive when there is diversity of language, laws, traditions, customs and religion. Of course, culture can accommodate diversity, but ultimately the systems of governance and jurisprudence in a liberal democracy cannnot produce unity: they must be the manifest foundation of a pre-existing unity. As far as England is concerned, foreign encroachments have been fiercely resisted since the Reformation, yet the accommodation of Roman Catholics has developed incrementally of necessity to the extent that they agreed to abide by the laws of the state. A logical corollary of this is that Asian immigrants to the UK ought now to adapt their cultural traditions and religious expression to accommodate ‘British toleration’ or conform to those aspects of ‘Britishness’ which make society cohesive. And so a Briton has the right to (say) oppose or support British policy in Iraq and may campaign to that effect, write, agitate and stand for election towards the chosen end. But it is also elementary that he does not have the right to stone adulterers to death, hang homosexuals or blow up the underground or an aircraft.
Toleration of the intolerant is distinctly un-British.
Religious practices which conflict with traditional British liberties need an urgent focus. While few would defend such abhorrent practices as forced marriages, ‘honour killings’, female genital mutilation or child abuse, there is emerging an increasing tension between the assertion of individuality over the common good, and ‘human rights’ over community cohesion. Since there are no agreed criteria by which conflicting religious claims can be settled, religion is increasingly relegated to the private sphere: morality thereby becomes largely a matter of taste or opinion, and moral error ceases to exist. We are left with autonomy, equality and rights: the creedal values of liberalism that allow each to be whatever he or she chooses. Left unfettered, the assertion of these leads to anarchy, so a values system has to be imposed for society to function at all. This is perhaps what the Prime Minister meant by ‘muscular liberalism’.
And this ‘benign paternalism’ is thoroughly British, but only when it is consistent with the mores and traditions of the majority.
As society expands to encompass ever larger numbers of religious, ethnic and linguistic groups, rigid social structures are stretched to breaking point. Rather like the Church, society requires either cultural homogeneity or an élite sufficiently powerful to enforce conformity. But this negates the limited degree of Christian religious pluralism which the passing of the 1689 Act of Toleration specifically permitted. ‘Dissenting traditions’ have gained in number and influence and have weakened the grip of state religion. The costs of coercing religious conformity are no longer politically acceptable: the state is not willing to accept the price in social conflict and so adopts a position of ‘neutrality’ on the competing claims of various religious bodies and moral values.
The ultimate source of the state’s values system is the subject of much debate. In order to constrain religious expression in the public sphere, France has legislated to prohibit the display of all religious symbols and articles of clothing from its public buildings. More recently, President Sarkozy has banned the burka altogether because it ‘demeans and debases women’. In the UK, customs to do with dress, food laws or daily prayers have long been considered inoffensive as long as there is no compulsion or imposition. But the advent of shari’a courts, while considered ‘unavoidable’ by the Archbishop of Canterbury, are, according to Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali, perceptibly inconsistent with what have become inalienable values such as equality between men and women in the sight of the law, inheritance rights, the education and employment of women, and the freedom of young people to chose themselves whom they will marry. There have been rabbinical courts (Beth Din) in the UK for three centuries, and the Protestant state has similarly granted to Roman Catholics the right to take account of their own religious sensitivities. But these judicial provisions have always been subject to Statute Law, and appeal has always been possible from their judgements. This settlement is now being challenged by shari’a courts, some proponents of which insist that their dispensations are superior to parliamentary statute.
And so, secondly, we observe that the rule of law and equality under the law are core British values. There is no doubt that some religious practices may coerce some, especially women through such conventions as child marriage or inequitable divorce settlements. But mindful of minority ethnic voting communities, politicians have trod carefully along the via media between religious liberty and cultural prohibition. The Prime Minister has signalled an end to this compromise.
There are many models of ‘Britishness’, but the most enlightened and tolerant one, which is perhaps the most Christian, does not demand assimilation. It does, however, require integration: cultural relativism cannot be justified when the outcome is a moral injustice. But while religion can play a role in promoting moral conduct, there is no longer agreement on which institutions are morally capable of implementing the rules of justice. While some repudiate the idea that the Christian religion can any longer be a unifying force for Britain, it has to be observed that it has bequeathed to us our system of laws, administration of justice and our understanding of liberty.
Over recent centuries, it is Protestantism which has defined the character of Great Britain: from the Armada, through the Act of Union in 1707 to the battle of Waterloo, Britain was involved in successive wars against Roman Catholic nations. It was a shared religious allegiance that permitted a sense of British national identity to emerge, and which has served as a unifying narrative under the aegis of the Established Church through which the common good has traditionally been defined. Of course, this history is peppered with myth, sentiment and flights of fancy – notions that somehow God had chosen England, and the nation is singularly blessed by virtue of the purity of Protestantism over the discredited and sullied Catholicism of continental Europe. This selective sense of religious history and an idealised perception of the moral purpose of the United Kingdom in the world are part of our ‘Britishness’. We have a cohesive religious base, which is intrinsic to the national psyche: essentially, whilst acknowledging the liberties of atheists and rights of secular humanists, to be ‘religious’ is to be British.
The Christian moral social contract which existed (at least through the tinted lens of ‘Britishness’) has now been replaced by a new liberal moral uniformity. While the former was Anglican and benign, the latter is perceived to be increasingly intolerant of the dissident and unorthodox, seeking to impose itself in order to create social cohesion and control. Indeed, although the guiding principles of liberalism are respect for and tolerance of the ‘other’, it is itself increasingly being seen to be disrespectful and intolerant of the illiberal. This is antithetical to our ‘core values’. When we cease to tolerate benign dissent, we cease to act in accordance with the grand harmony of British history: indeed, we cease to be British.
And so, thirdly, to be British is to be free – to believe, to own, to contract and to associate. The state only has authority to the extent granted by Parliament, which is subject to the assent of the people. The foundations of those liberties – Magna Carta, Habeas Corpus, Bill of Rights, Act of Union – guard against state coercion. To abrogate them is to diminish our liberty and to deny our heritage. It is not British to be subject to foreign parliaments or alien courts – temporal or spiritual – especially where they seek to impose a doctrine or creed which is antithetical to that which we have evolved over the centuries. The sovereignty of the Crown in Parliament is inviolable.
To be British is sometimes to tolerate conflicting philosophies, mutually-exclusive theologies and illogical propositions.
But not at any cost.

151 Comments:
To be British is sometimes to tolerate conflicting philosophies, mutually-exclusive theologies and illogical propositions.
But not at any cost.
Agreed and under one Law and one language*.
Not just "official language": all government and council tracts should be in English only. If groups and charities wish to have multilingual leaflets etc that's fine, they can pay for it.
This might be interesting too for those who haven't seen it. Sorry about where it is stored. :)
http://www.matribunal.com/downloads/LCJ_speech.pdf
It's the Lord Chief Justice talking how the over-arching law works in this area.
Also of interest might be the issue of the right of prisoners to vote which is floating around now. It may end up having an impact on the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court.
Your Grace - only tangentially related - but I've tagged you with a question about hymns, asking you to name one that you love to hate (here). Of course, it might be a good peg on which to hang a broader discussion of the way in which the Church does or does not preserve certain intrinsic values through its worship...
"The British are a mongrel people, with antecedents including inter alia Jutes, Picts, Celts, Romans, Saxons, Vikings and Normans."
No, in the majority of Britain and Ireland the DNA is predominantly from the initial post-iceage settlers, according to Stephen Oppenheimer. Typically the DNA from ALL invaders is no more than 25%, except for the south east of England where it rises to about one third.
Mr Budgie,
His Grace is not sure what you mean by 'No'.
Whether the DNA proportion is 33%, 25% or just 5%, the fact that it is present to any degree (which Oppenheimer corroborates) establishes the veracity of the 'mongrel' epithet.
I never had an answer from Tim Montgomerie, in relation to the judgment given against the Christian B & B owners, as to whether "mainstream Conservatism" had won or not. But then by his own words he supports gay rights.
"One language only" (Span Ows) I strongly suggest that it is right to distinguish (dare one say it, discriminate) between languages that are inherently British (and, of course, older than Enlish) such as Welsh and Gaelic, and languages not developed here, but imported much later (eg. Bengli, Punjabi, Hindustani, etc., etc.). It is quite wrong to judge these Celtic languages on the same footing as the imported ones, and it is wrong to say that they should take their place behind even English; obviously, we know English must take precedence.
Thank you!
"The sovereignty of the Crown in Parliament is inviolable".
And it is a shame, our own shame, that we have marginalised the monarchy to a somewhat disney like existence for tourism rather than treating her as the embodiment of these values. Christianity and constitutional monarchy have become a laughing stock and I've never understood why. When I was 4 or 5 years old at school we celebrated the jubilee with lessons on what constutional monarchy meant and how it defines freedoms. I drew a little picture for the school wall saying "i love the queen" with a union jack flag and so on. These days you would be hard pressed to find any enthusiasm for this institution only scorn. Maybe we had these lessons because I am a catholic and attended a catholic school where we rounded out mass by swearing our allegiance. It had the effect of helping me feel part of something. Part of Britain and the privileged holder of the values you outlined. I feel so sad at the thought of raising kids in this country where you no longer feel part of anything. Just a 'world citizen' in a multiculti multilingual melee of mass consumerism. Ugh.
The ashes have excelled themselves yet again.
If it is ‘distinctly un-British’ to tolerate the intolerant then why do we tolerate Islam? Verse 9:28 of the Qur’an describes non-Muslims as unclean, which puts us in the same Islamic law category as bodily waste. Verse 4:34 states that women are inferior and are to be punished by beating. Section p17.3 of Reliance of the Traveller reads, “The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: ‘Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who lets it be done to him.’”
The world’s most intolerant religion (the only one, as far as I know, that restricts observance of the Golden Rule to its own followers) daily cocks a snook at our innate sense of tolerance and fair play. How much worse does our national life have to become before the lion tires of having his tail tweaked and lashes out?
Your Grace
Good analysis:
‘We are left with autonomy, equality and rights: the creedal values of liberalism that allow each to be whatever he or she chooses. Left unfettered, the assertion of these leads to anarchy, so a values system has to be imposed for society to function at all. This is perhaps what the Prime Minister meant by ‘muscular liberalism’’.
Cameron (and the EU elite) are following in the footseteps of the Caesars. Like the Caesars (‘the Divine cult’) Cameron et al know that to govern such a vast political constuct, built on the continental scale, a set of core religious values (‘Muscular (iron fist) liberalism’) is required to keep unity amongst the different peoples, races, tribes, languages and creeds of the EU.
In the divine scheme of things it is no accident that history has recorded that Cameron gave his speech in Munich: so the oligarchy now, at long last, understands that ‘a values system has to be imposed for society to function at all’.
Three cheers for all those nice liberals that have succeeded in destroying Christianity in these islands only to be replaced by an ‘enlightened fascism’.
Liberalism’s only solution has been death: a woman‘s right to choose has death as one of it’s choices. The old, the sick and the dying? Offer them euthnasia as a solution liberalism says. You gotta a problem with social cohesion then ‘Muscular liberalism’ (borrowed from ‘Muscular Christianity’) is the new State religion that has ‘the answers’.
Welcome to the new fascism.
What is fascinating is that liberalism created these problems by abolishing accepted Judaeo-Christian absolute truths from social discourse; creating a vacuum filled by Testosterone Islam; and, now, the only solution left is the application, ultimately, of the iron fist of the State once the velvet glove of Muscular libralism comes off.
Cameron.
You lost.
And so have we Judaeo-Christians.
Core values!
There was a day when an Englishman's word was his bond -
http://ancientbritonpetros.blogspot.com/2011/02/englishmans-word-is-his-bond.html
British values appear to be any values that all the immigrants have brought with them. The term has been so debased that it means nothing to people such as me who originate from these isles. Better to ask what are English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh values; it would have more resonance and honesty. When I was young, I was brought up to regard myself as British but not any more because I cannot relate to what it means, thanks to all the social engineering that we have had to endure over the past 50 or so years.
Our values are certainly shaped by our island status, the wars of defence we have fought over the centuries and the independent spirit we have cultivated. Our widespread EU-scepticism is very much in keeping with our protestant attitudes. We don't like to be told what to do. Few newcomers ever really wanted to conform. It is an individual trait and it has become a national one.
Thank you, Your Grace - especially for reminding us: While some repudiate the idea that the Christian religion can any longer be a unifying force for Britain, it has to be observed that it has bequeathed to us our system of laws, administration of justice and our understanding of liberty . Comments today are mostly helpful also.
For me, Britishness is informed by the interweaving of our ancient genetic, linguistic, and religious strands; and by our continuing knowledge and appreciation of them.
On genetics: I don't think Sykes and Oppenheimer differ substantially in their interpretation of the DNA - which means, still, that we are mostly 'Celts.'
As to English language, I'm fascinated by the mystery of its adoption and survival among the Celts in what became England. Perhaps a principal dynamic is that it filled a void left by Latin.
As I read it, the post-Roman adoption of Christianity encouraged all insular cultures to unite in loyalty to the sovreignty of The One Almighty God. In general, this meant that both petty rulers and their people assented to the same ideals in law, administration, and morality, even as different tribes retained their individual characters, languages, and literacies.
Of course, the survival of English after the ministrations of The Bastard is yet another miracle of our development. Your Grace and communicants all mention the continuing fight for freedoms since; once more however, Christianity provided what are now deemed 'underpinnings.'
Oh, and there is another characteristic we share - that is love of these islands, and the traditions that inhere in our localities.
It's just a fact of life that the invaders we now face do not, and cannot, share in all of this - however much they set about the rafters and stonework.
So even if DC is a viper at our bosom, we know him for what he is.
As soon as you said mongrel you lost it for me.
I'm a working class bloke who left school at 15. Worked the factory system, served in 3 Commando Brigade and now, reluctantly, become a nationalist - to save what's left of England, with my life if necessary.
Educated blokes like you could wipe the floor with someone like me. In fact it's people like you who've been pulling the wool over our English peasant eyes for centuries.
No more. You have no idea what is coming.
Steve
Dear Mr Steve,
It isn't clear why the word 'mongrel' lost it for you: it has a perfectly comprehensible vernacular meaning: 'of mixed genetic origin or nature'. If you are with Mr Budgie, maintaining that there is no DNA in the UK as a result of inter-breeding, then you would do well to trace back your own family history, where you are likely to find some.
Anonymous
"The British are a mongrel people, with antecedents including inter alia Jutes, Picts, Celts, Romans, Saxons, Vikings and Normans."
Of course we are a "mongrel people"! Have you never heard of 'hybrid vigour'!!
YG. Can I make a distinction?
We talk endlessly about values, but harldy ever about 'practices' - what do we DO that makes us British?
Values have an infinite extension, whereas practices are always contingent. The practices of a nation rise through it's soil, it's minerals and it's population. We can pluck values all too easily from the air.
Whilst espousing values, our politicians (of all stripe) have been shamefully disregarding of our practices.
Mrs Thatcher, for example, spoke of certain values. But in effect she lauded just ONE practice: The Marketplace. Communities that found themselves unable to survive within that practice were rendered obsolete. Colliery bands were broken up, banners were made museum pieces and the age old continuity of trade - from father to son - was consigned to history. Communal practices were lost. It is the vacuum of their passing (amongst MANY others) that begs the question: who are we?
YG. I know your soft-spot for Mrs T. And I'm not especially singling her out. She was a woman of her time. But OUR time must find a balance that allows indigenous practices to flourish without necessarily being scattered onto the market floor.
The Market is just one practice amongst many. It indeed has its place - but its extension is not that of a 'value' per se (ie infinite).
If (IF) we envy Asian communities at all, it surely isn't for their values (which Christainity has in abundance) it is for the coherent and respected forms which remain at the centre of their communities.
We have lost too many of these forms. What festivals do we celebrate together? What aspirations do we guide our children towards? Are our families scattered in search of that 'better' job?
These are the tender questions of practice that reflect values, certainly. But those values can only be seen through our contingent acts - those that dare to express IDENTITY - whatever the cost.
All hail the Morris Dancer!!
The argument that we are a Mongrel race to justify certain agendas is quite scurrilous as aren't most (especially first world)counties made up of Mongrels in its true definition. I hate it when it is used as an excuse to insist on more and more immigration. We are (or should I say were, the way things are going) a distinct people and we are in danger of being wiped out. The whole EU project is sinister and Evil and I believe it has a lot to do with the massive influx of Islam. Those politicians that purport to represent us but dance to the EU tune are nothing short of Traitors.
I strongly agree with both Londonistar and John in Cheshire and also have sympathy with Steve 16:27
I'm not with Mr Budgie because my knowledge of DNA wouldn't allow it.
Since you ask I can trace my ancestors back to 1608, to north Devon, to apple growers - more accurately tide labour to the Norman family that owned the land.
Tens and tens of millions of my kinfolk laboured for billions of hours to build this England. And oh what labour that was, eh? We were abused for centuries by the ruling classes.
And now we have the political class, who have no use for us because they can get cheaper elsewhere. Let me tell you, we have no use for them either.
Again: the English have no use for the tiny number who wish to eradicate our identity, the multi cultists.
I'm no stereotype, I'm flesh and blood and I have feelings. The political class have driven a dagger into the heart of my people, the English Nation.
Remember what happened on the battlefield of Maldon, when the outnumbered English fought on without hope of victory:
'Thought shall be the harder, heart the keener, Mood shall be the more as our might lessens.'
In the hour of adversity and danger they closed their ranks and were true to one another.
That is me, Your Grace.
Steve
Refering to us as mongrels would imply you believe in a pedigree people, thus exposing latent supremacist tendancies.
Many conflicts in Africa are tribalistic so if a Blackman married a Blackwoman from another tribe it would probably help with cohesion yet I would not refer to them as mongrels.
I don't believe you will make crufts by sniffing Camerons arse, they just throw a bucket of water over you for that.
Britishness is not decided in a DNA laboratory or by the State, it comes across in our willingness to call a spade a spade. Its our stubborn ability to hold on to all that is dear to us despite the State.
"Since there are no agreed criteria by which conflicting religious claims can be settled, religion is increasingly relegated to the private sphere: morality thereby becomes largely a matter of taste or opinion, and moral error ceases to exist."
That's not really true, is it? For sure, the religious would like us to think so believing that they have a monopoly on morality. The BBC can even roll out some old duffer from the priesthood to mouth some platitudes whenever a story has a moral element but that doesn't make it true either.
One can claim moral absolutism exists and provide pointers in a religious book to find an approximation to it, then smooth over the conflicts in interpretation between groups of adherents, but that's essentially just a convenient thesis to keep people happy.
I don't struggle with a sense of morality just because I reject the so-called moral absolutism of Christianity or Islam. I don't wake up and think that today my morals are going to be based on my wanting some money. They're deeply ingrained.
In fact, they're probably based on a combination of my recognising the human condition, and value pluralism from our social environment, which is in itself based on recognising the human condition. In short, they're pretty solid things and they're held across society.
The question is culture and heritage, history and heroes, common cultural experiences and literature, a common past and a sense of being similar to some and different from many.
The trouble is Your Grace that having lived abroad extensively and in the North of England, I cannot understand what "England" is. From television I sense it is lawns and villages and church fetes and public schools and people who think the BBC is local, and who travel "up" to London.
Living in the North it all seems so alien. It is cheaper to fly to Amsterdam than to London. Moving east and west is easier than moving south by any form of transport.
It seems as if "England" is for Southerners and Northerners are cut off between that "England" and Scotland. Even the weather forecast has a brief sweep of "The North", and BBC has "North of England correspondent"
So, what is to be done on 4th March with the Census ?
The BBC can even roll out some old duffer from the priesthood
Really ? Name two !
David Cameron is as usual talking out of his rear end, in much the same way any other type of salesman does.
The truth is that British Culture has already adapted to and been influenced all of the positive things brought to our nation from our colonial empire. Like for example washing daily, or far more often, all types of foreign food, and many notable additions to our language.
It would seem therefore that we have already taken the best from our masters colonies, including of course the more intelligent members of their respective populations, like for example doctors, nurses, business people, scientists, and, dare I say, politicians?
Add to this long list, the worlds oil, diamonds, silver, gold, and all types of other natural resources also including almost infinite amounts of relatively extremely cheap, and skilled labour.
Therefore we, or more accurately our own ESTABLISHMENT, have already raped these places and people of virtually every thing they ever had of any real value, and continue to do so at an ever increasing rate.
Therefore
Immigration of the legal variety, is extremely good for our establishment, is a dog dinner of good and bad for us, but is an almost complete disaster for the vast majority of the worlds population as a whole.
So now you know the real reason why we have so much legal immigration into this this otherwise rapidly vanishing population. Also why our politicians are so keen to justify our often murderously evil legal immigration policies.
As for illegal immigration.
This was secretly allowed, if not also encouraged, simply to frighten you all to death in the run up to, 9/11, and then during the establishments supposed and never ending War on Terror. The reason why the establishment would wish to do this, is as obvious as it is also profoundly EVIL.
"While some repudiate the idea that the Christian religion can any longer be a unifying force for Britain, it has to be observed that it has bequeathed to us our system of laws, administration of justice and our understanding of liberty."
Yes, it has certainly contributed to all that. That doesn't mean it needs to be core now though. The good of the established church today needs to be argued in today's terms rather than in nostalgic ones.
I have a friend who argues that we should be very respectful of the trades unions because we wouldn't have the sort of rights in the workplace now without their fighting for them in the past.
The trades union movement had a time in history where it was a force for good because of the way society was organised. However, we're organised differently now and I think they're mostly a destructive force in the UK today.
What are British ‘core values’?
As for the above.
If WE ever really had any intrinsically good ones, WE certainly do not anymore.
Firstly because we are no longer a nation called the British. We are a relatively medium sized province, within the United States of Europe.
Secondly and more importantly WE, as in YOU and ME, are what ever YOU or ME decide we want to be. We do not need now, and have never needed anyone in the past, to spell what we are, out to us.
In other words WE are all INDIVIDUALS, collectivism is the ideology of pointless self sacrifice, which is against nature, human or otherwise, and therefore the express will of God.
@ Taylor (17:06)—What festivals do we celebrate together?
Being British has, thus far, meant keeping ourselves to ourselves. However, we’ll become an ethnic minority in 2066 and a sense of being a repressed community will doubtless develop. Festival-wise, there’ll be no stopping us.
Steve 1755.
Sadly we lost the battle of Maldon but your evocation of our ancestor's courage still stands.
We also lost on that sad day in 1066 but once again were overwhelmed rather than fled from the field.The shield wall was broken at last around our dying king.
Perhaps it is time for the dragon standard to fly again in England and our young men to remember where they come from and to hear of such things.
The fate of England is no longer a matter for the elites.
Two points:
1. What sort of country should we be, a 'club' or a 'hotel'? People join a club because it offers something that they want. It is a two way relationship, the good member puts in more than they take out. A hotel offers a service, you pay your fee, you get the service, no more, no less. A good hotel attempts to satisfy the requirements of its customers but the relationship is transient and limited to the service contract.
2. What about the concept of 'homeland'? An ex-pat Frenchman would have regarded France as his 'home'. An African-American might feel 'at home' in Africa. A second generation British Asian might feel 'at home' in Pakistan. I go 'home' at Christmas and the streets are dark, no fairy lights, no decorated trees. The passers by in the streets chatter away on their mobiles in an alien tongue. Where is my 'homeland' Blair and Cameron?
Cranmer said: "If you are with Mr Budgie, maintaining that there is no DNA in the UK as a result of inter-breeding ..."
Budgie said: "Typically the DNA from ALL invaders is no more than 25%, except for the south east of England where it rises to about one third."
Spot the difference.
Define mongrel: I did; 75% or above of DNA from the original settlers in the British isles (ie including Ireland) means that the English, Scots, Welsh and Irish are pretty similar in genetic ancestry and not mongrels. Each invader has added only a tiny amount of DNA.
To explain it in dog terms: two different breeds is a cross; a cross with another gives a mongrel. For the British to be accurately rated mongrels the dominant DNA would have to drop from about 75% to well below 50%. Hence my "No". I am not making a value judgment.
Anon: "I go 'home' at Christmas and the streets are dark, no fairy lights, no decorated trees. The passers by in the streets chatter away on their mobiles in an alien tongue."
Come to Leicester, mate. We have Diwali lights and decorations up first and they segue into Christmas lights immediately after Diwali has finished. The Diwali switch on attracts tens of thousands of people.
The town hall is decorated for Christmas with moving tableaux and there's a huge Christmas tree and carol services. Obviously the shops do the Christmas thing like everywhere else which creates a nice atmosphere.
That's Leicester, soon to have a majority ethnic population by most accounts, and a majority muslim one by the EDL's account (lol). There's also multi-ethnic Birmingham which is quite close too, home of 'Winteral' if one is thick enough to believe the Daily Mail. They have a superb German Christmas market in the city centre which is well worth a visit.
^Winterval
...no point arguing DNA percentages, I think humans and the banana have a 80 - 90% coincidence.
"...no point arguing DNA percentages, I think humans and the banana have a 80 - 90% coincidence."
Sometimes I like to celebrate my monkey heritage. Doesn't impress the passersby unfortunately but it's their fault for not having fast enough reactions.
There's nowt like gradely folk, salt of the earth they are.
Its our down to earth nature that helps foreigners of an amicable outlook to get along with us and our eye for a wrong'un that makes Cameron seem foreign.
dave s 20:31
'Her sights and sounds; dreams happy as her day;
And laughter, learnt of friends; and gentleness
In hearts at peace, under an English heaven.'
The White Dragon flies in the West Country dave, the fyrd is growing in number and many, like me, are ex-forces.
Did they (the politicos) honestly think we'd go down without a fight?
To all the others here, I say this:
'The English, insofar as they recognise their origin, identity and cultural roots, are not 'Westerners', but an ancient northern people.' - Rev. John Lovejoy.
Steve
"Where is the horse gone?
Where the rider?
Where the giver of treasure?
Where are the seats at the feast?
Where are the revels in the hall?
Alas for the bright cup!
Alas for the mailed warrior!
Alas for the splendour of the prince!
How that time has passed away,
dark under the cover of night,
as if it had never been!
Good is he who keeps his faith,
And a warrior must never speak
his grief of his breast too quickly,
unless he already knows the remedy - a hero must act with courage.
It is better for the one that seeks mercy,
consolation from the Father in the heavens,
where, for us, all permanence rests."
You have the story teller's gift, Your Grace, and have described Britishness in a way no politician seems able to do.
To Mr Steve I say this, bluedog is proudly mongrel preferring ‘British’ to anything more specific.
Over the years I have learned to be very careful of intolerance and of not respecting those who are superficially different. It is the inner man or woman that counts and it is so often wrong to judge the book by its cover. For example, you would know from your military experience that there is clear separation between officers, who are supposed to be gentlemen, and the men. Sadly there are many officers who will never be gentlemen, and there are many men who are truly gentlemen. The men tend to work out who is who before the officers do.
It seems you are getting involved in politics, with a number of old comrades.
Be very careful who you trust, because there are no rules in politics and plenty of political entrepreneurs with ambitions that may depend on your support. Don’t let your loyalty be cheaply bought.
Politics is all about ideas. You have sent out an idea of Englishness that depends on blood. His Grace has set out an idea of Britishness that depends on ideas, and I’m with His Grace.
This is a very important distinction and has caused a lot of trouble in the past. If you go further down this track you will bump into two Latin terms that describe the difference, ius sanguinis and ius soli, meaning law of blood and law of soil. Law of blood is a German idea by which citizenship is defined by blood, race or language. Law of soil is a French idea that means if you are born in a country you are a citizen of that country. Under ius soli you can be black, white or brindle and still one of us as long as you sign up to our ideas and beliefs. Ius sanguinis speaks for itself, if you are not part of the club you can never join.
Can you see where this goes?
Keep reading what His Grace writes and compare it with what you have written.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
DanJ0,
'"While some repudiate the idea that the Christian religion can any longer be a unifying force for Britain, it has to be observed that it has bequeathed to us our system of laws, administration of justice and our understanding of liberty."
Yes, it has certainly contributed to all that. That doesn't mean it needs to be core now though. The good of the established church today needs to be argued in today's terms rather than in nostalgic ones.'
An analogy for you, you can dismiss it of course, but it should make you think. In the human body you have various active cells that 'make' various bits of you (e.g. osteoblasts that secrete the stuff your bones are made of). When they are done they stick around as relatively inactive cells (e.g. the osteoblast becomes entrapped in bone and is called an osteocyte). Even though the cell no longer does all that much, its death would cause the death of the entire tissue; you see although under a microscope it is static, it is actually responsible for maintenance.
In the same way, the Church is the basis for the laws and culture of this country. Even though it seems to do very little nowadays, losing it would probably cause the loss of so much of what it has built. It is dangerous to think that you no longer need something once it has achieved its aim. People are fluid; easily manipulated and moulded. Remember how in one generation an entire country of people were bent to the will of a madman. It is nothing but arrogance that allows us to believe it couldn't happen again. There was nary a dictator that didn't outlaw or try to manipulate the Christian Church in its various forms; this is because it is the bedrock of Western civilisation. Without it we have no basis for society, and then we can be bent to the will of whomever leads.
Thank you, Mr Bluedog.
His Grace's ashes will repose much better tonight, thanks to your eminent insight.
Whilst I accept we all have to show tolerance and learn to a degree, to adapt, I do wish politicians wouldn't try to manipulate how and in what way that adaption should manifest itself and it shouldn't detrimentally harmless age old cultural traditions, ones that tourists actually come here to see, as well as cream teas. :-)
A small example that actually made me rather cross when I read it this morning.
It would appear the government are considering moving our 'May Day' to October and rename it UK Day or somesuch!
Why?
Well I read the spurious reason; to spread our Bank Holidays more evenly.
But again, why?
May Day is when the Morris Dancers are out in force and people do still dance around maypoles. This is the day of the spring fairs, but it also heralds the start of the various outdoor gatherings.
Returning briefly to the Morris Dancers, we are the only European country that still actually actively keeps this tradition going and the government want to get rid of it, for the sake of uniformity.
Grrr
I can see a great influx of members to the EDL and BNP although I would prefer the people moving to UKIP.
No, not because of Dave's speech but because of the total lack of condemnation of Islamic extemists by the so called moderates. I do not even hear of Muslims wishing to distance themselves from the perpertrators of terrorist attacks.
British tolerance and hospitality is at an end. We all know it.
The main reported reaction from Muslim community leaders is that the Muslims are being victimized by the evil and racist Brits.
These people, unfortunately, do not have a clue what a Brit is.
Dave doesn't seem to either.
Your Grace,
I can see that you are trying, but it is not doing it for me.
Your apologies (in the true sense of the word) make me puke.
You ask the wrong question; who cares what it is to be British, if it can mean anything the speaker likes? Black, Brown, Chinese, French, absolutely anything but White, Protestant and either English, Irish, Scottish else Welsh.
How dare you describe my people as 'mongrels'?
You hypocrite. Call a Black person a mongrel. No, didn't think so.
One fact. The invasion (the last one, BTW, and yet we still talk about it like it was a seismic event) in 1066 comprised less than 25,000 men.
25,000. In 1 thousand years. About the same figure we now let in in 15 days.
You are obviously more educated than me. But wisdom?
'First and foremost, Britishness is about tolerance'. - Who says? Why do you just repeat what you read?
Mr English Viking,
It is ironic that you so strongly object to any suggestion that the British are a mongrel people when you yourself have chosen the moniker 'English Viking'.
Pray, what is that if it is not a hybrid (= 'mongrel') between the Scandanavian pirates and the fair damsels of these islands whom they ravaged?
Why do you celebrate that pillage, plunder and colonisation?
Or do you somehow persuade yourself that to be 'Viking' is synonymous with British patriotism?
Notwithstanding this, His Grace is disturbed that his writing makes you physically sick. He would like to remind you that you pay no subscription and are under no compulsion to read his drivel. Please feel free to populate an alternative blog more conducive to your disposition.
Odd that Cameron talks of British values when our rulers refuse to recognize the existence of an indigenous British people:
… notes the Government's continued refusal to put these rights on a firm legal footing and ratify Convention 169, on the grounds that there are no indigenous peoples in the United Kingdom …—Early Day Motion 1299
Your Grace,
You are up late, perhaps your conscience will not permit you the luxury of sleep?
Asking me to leave, politely, will not achieve the desired effect. Order it so, because you can no longer tolerate me, and I shall leave.
You know, as well as I do, the negative connotations associated with the word 'mongrel'.
Don't pick on my screen-name, a usual diversion.
Don't ask questions, without first answering mine.
We're waiting- perhaps you need to wait for the next edition of the Conservative Manifesto before you make up your mind?
BTW,
I'm sure Your Grace is sufficiently 'clued up' on techno- matters to be able to see the country of origin of this post, which should explain the screen-name.
On Mongrels.
In an Insular sort of way, I'm happy to be as mixed as anyone: Scots, Irish, Yorkshire, and even a bit of Essex. All of that, especially the Yorks. and physiognomy, suggests a touch of Germanic, be it Viking or the (rarer) A-S. So I don't mind being called a mongrel; and I don't expect I'd mind if the DNA were otherwise varied.
I especially don't mind ever since
we took that little Chorgi-dog (ha! Corgi-Chow) away from a Fate at the Pound. She was shiny black and Corgi shaped; and she was beautiful in every way - being sweet, incredibly intelligent, loyal, and good. Indeed, she even made me proud to embrace the 'racist stereotype' English Bitch, when in certain parts of this benighted and inhuman globe!
So I say --- whether we take offence, or a brick wall, or otherwise --- all depends on the point of view :)
bluedog 22:41
I am a simple man and I have no interest in politics.
The officers and men of the Commandos are not like those of the line regiments of the British Army. You could say they have no class but you'd have to have served to know what that means.
You say you are 'proudly mongrel' bluedog, and you have every right to say what best describes your identity, at least I hope you do. And you can call yourself British and everything is ok because its now been established (so we're told) that British is a multicultural identity. However, when I do the same and proudly call myself an Englishman, the response I get is not so good.
Who did what to my England that I feel uncomfortable voicing my identity? When I was a boy in the late 60's we were all very proud to call ourselves English, it was promoted by everybody and everything. Times change. I didn't, and nor did my mates.
I hear words like anti-racist and I try to understand what it means. I think you're one bluedog. As I said, I'm a simple man. I believe in honour. My ancestors founded England and I shall honour them, when the time comes with my blood.
Steve
The British are a mongrel people, with antecedents including inter alia Jutes, Picts, Celts, Romans, Saxons, Vikings and Normans
A 'mongrel people'?
This is an insulting and perjorative expression always made to rubbish any dissent towards immigration issues. Those quoted 'immigrants' arrived by force and against the will of the aboriginals: intergration however painful happened over many hundreds of years. It was fought then as it should be now; immigrants coming here should leave their old countries and their cultures behind - not to claim equal prominence to their old, familiar practices and languages when amongst the indigenous of their chosen place of settlement.
The rapid change in our culture has suffered unwelcome change within a period of not more than 50 years - not centuries.
Lakester91: "In the same way, the Church is the basis for the laws and culture of this country. Even though it seems to do very little nowadays, losing it would probably cause the loss of so much of what it has built."
I can see the form of your argument there but I am not convinced of its truth or validity at this point. How exactly is the Church the basis for the laws in this country?
Our legacy common law by its very nature is grounded now in its long history. Our statute law, which is how most of our law is created [1] these days, is based on our core values at the time of drafting.
One of our core values is the principle of liberty. That is, we are free to do as we please unless restricted by law, and the law ought to be there to prevent harm to others.
What is the Church basis for this principle and the body of law which is built on it?
[1] European law, regulations, and directives aside
bluedog: "You have sent out an idea of Englishness that depends on blood. His Grace has set out an idea of Britishness that depends on ideas, and I’m with His Grace."
Me too.
Law of blood is a German idea by which citizenship is defined by blood, race or language.
Not so. Germany existed since 1871 as a nation and had its only Citizenship Law in 1913. It picked ius sanguinis simply because Germans lived throughout Central Europe and Russia and had to have a claim to the homeland.
This was why Versailles was such a disaster cutting of millions of Germans from their homeland yet discriminating against them in Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Romania etc. It was why Weimar and Hitler had policies to protect their people in Central Europe.
The SPD changed the Citizenship Law in 1990s away from ius sanguinis.
Britain has a mix and the US has changed its system too. US natives are primarily Citizens of the State of say Texas before they are US Citizens.
Today Parliament has decided people are EU Citizens...is that consonant with national identity ? Prince Charles even appears before EU Parliament as Citizen Windsor to urge more EU control of the climate agenda
Mary Riddell posted an article last night on the Telegraph which might be interesting to some here.
She talks about Britishness, euro-scepticism, law, and the pillars of democracy. Seems like we're all at it at the moment. :)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/maryriddell/8309614/Deny-prisoners-the-vote-and-we-undermine-our-democracy.html
>religion is increasingly relegated to the private sphere: morality thereby becomes largely a matter of taste or opinion, and moral error ceases to exist
That's a cheap gibe against us atheists. Also unkind to theists: are you suggesting they only conform to the law only because they think their deity has an eye on them? No, I think not. Decent people behave decently because they were brought up that way. Children learn more by example than by anything else.
It is interesting that a call to define Britishness has caused such confusion and dissent.
This is surely the best indicator of just how strongly the British Culture has been attacked?
This highlights the drive to make us 'better EU` ers'.
Britishness incorporates core moral and Legal codes, wholly derived from Judeo/Christian roots.
That is why Christianity(alone)is being undermined by those behind the E U .
Return to Christianity and our 'Britishness 'will be restored.This is so simple I wonder why people cannot see it!.
Of course I expect to get attacked on this(sigh)by those (minorities) whom the E U has bought off by legalising their
particular tastes and desires at the expense of the majority.Which as I explained before is just part of the process to radically alter our moral,social, and cultural outlook (for the worse of the majority.)'Wooly minded' liberals are part of this process too!.
If we continue on this downward descent things will get progressively worse!.
Dear Mr Steve @ 01.54, thanks for your reply and glad to learn that you are not getting sucked in to politics.
My starting position is that there are so many ways we can hate it each other its not funny. You can slice and dice the human race in almost any direction, man/woman, young/old, rich/poor, fat/thin, short/tall, class, language, accent, religion, tint on the Dulux colour chart, it just goes on and on. So trying to keep the arguments down to a dull roar has to be a priority. As His Grace urges, you can simply say it needs tolerance.
Mr Steve says ‘However, when I do the same and proudly call myself an Englishman, the response I get is not so good.’ Well tell them to shove it, politely. The Scots, Welsh and Irish have no inhibitions about letting you know who they are, as if you can’t guess. You have a perfect right to do the same. I travel under a British flag to avoid needless posturing.
Does this make me ‘anti-racist’? Answer, if that’s what you want to call me, fine. But as you may guess from the list in the first paragraph, I’m against quite a lot of other causes of bickering too, with an important exception, see below.
I also believe in the old English Common Law principle of precedent. In other words, what’s done is done and you can’t unscramble the omelette. Government on the basis that what’s settled can be reversed at a whim is a recipe for chaos.
Now right or wrong, various British governments have let a lot of people into the country whose prospects of integrating are clearly zero. They don’t want to and under Multi Culti we said you don’t have to. The fact is that the Christian West in general did not understand the Islamic mindset or culture and we have sleep-walked into a disaster. We can be as tolerant as we like but the Muslims just regard that as weakness and take advantage of us. But getting back to the argument about precedent, I think it would be a very dangerous policy to deport British-born Muslims forcibly as some suggest. Where do you stop? But telling the really threatening Muslims they have outstayed their welcome and giving them an incentive to go is another matter. That may be the fate of those who won’t follow Dave’s hint to accept our ways and values.
Len: "Of course I expect to get attacked on this(sigh)by those (minorities) whom the E U has bought off by legalising their particular tastes and desires at the expense of the majority."
Come on, you like it really as it plays to your Elijah thing. :)
The natural and harm-free consequences of our nature weren't legalised, they were decriminalised. There's a subtle difference.
Decriminalising it was a matter of strict justice according to some of our core British values.
Something similar happened to women despite the Christian (and Islamic) notion of gender roles.
bluedog: "Now right or wrong, various British governments have let a lot of people into the country whose prospects of integrating are clearly zero. They don’t want to and under Multi Culti we said you don’t have to."
I live near and work with Muslims and most of those seem pretty well integrated and functional society members. Undoubtedly, there are some who aren't and probably never will be and it is they who are the problem. Aren't some people overplaying their part by thinking people with Islamic beliefs cannot be accomodated at all?
The Lord Chief Justice in the link I provided very near the top sets it out pretty well I think. For instance, equality is much derided these days but that's a core British value too when it is properly understood to mean 'due fairness'. If some religious people cannot accept that (say) women are essentially equal in our culture (now) then that concept must be imposed because it is surely a core one.
A little over a century ago, women were not seen as essentially equal in our culture. They didn't have a vote in our democracy for starters. Yet now they do. That inequality was deeply ingrained in our society back then but we have rejected it now. Isn't that a Good Thing? Whatever core values we identify and cherish, they must allow Good Things like that change to happen otherwise we'll stagnate.
Mr Voyager @ 0635.
1) German national consciousness pre-dates 1871, per Johan Gottlieb Fichte, from wikipedia for example:
Fichte made important contributions to political nationalism in Germany. In his Addresses to the German Nation (1808), a series of speeches delivered in Berlin under French occupation, he urged the German peoples to "have character and be German"--entailed in his idea of Germanness was antisemitism, since he argued that "making Jews free German citizens would hurt the German nation."[7] Fichte answered the call of Freiherr vom Stein, who attempted to develop the patriotism necessary to resist the French specifically among the "educated and cultural elites of the kingdom." Fichte located Germanness in the supposed continuity of the German language, and based it on Tacitus, who had hailed German virtues in Germania and celebrated the heroism of Arminius in his Annales.[8]
In an earlier work from 1793 dealing with the ideals and politics of the French Revolution, Beiträge zur Berichtigung der Urteile des Publikums über die Französische Revolution (Contributions to the Correction of the Public's Judgment concerning the French Revolution), he called Jews a "state within a state" that could "undermine" the German nation.[9] In regard to Jews getting "civil rights," he wrote that this would only be possible if one managed "to cut off all their heads in one night, and to set new ones on their shoulders, which should contain not a single Jewish idea."[9])
Uncompromising stuff.
2) Ius sanguinis in Central Europe, circa 2009: http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/56259
Prost!
Blimey.
Getting back to the mongrel debate, which is one of the standard liberal line to justify the current multi culture, multi religious policy of government, I would suggest that in English history the 'social cohesion' his Grace fondly talks of was brought about by
1) The sword
2) Cultural /religious enforcement
And not by some divine tolerance of the state.
for example, that when the Romans came they conquered and made sure that those conquered would stay down for good and that they would keep hold of the territory that they have just taken over (hence the many garrisons on Roman legions, Hadrian’s wall). They also spent time 'Romanising' the population into the Roman civilisation, which we can still see bits of today.
When the Normans came, who were a conquering elite ruling over mostly Anglo-Saxon peasantry, they spent a lot of time putting large parts of this island to the sword and then began a process of 'Normanising' this island; you can see this in the parish churches and great cathedrals of the day.
This is how two elites managed at different points in history managed to control this island, rather than implementing today’s multi cultural and diversity policies.
Turning now to the Anglo-Saxons and the Vikings. Both were initially raiders to the country and funnily enough they spent a great deal of time raping and pillaging- which one would assume would be acceptable under our current multi cultural ideas. Note also that the Anglo-Saxon rule was not unified and there were several Anglo Saxon kingdoms on this isle- the Viking foothold was in the north of England only and it was only when these warrior races were converted to Christianity that this island did become slightly more cohesive and stable.
You mention the role of the 'protestant' Church of England as a unifier (even though the post reformation Church was very much all things to all)- but from the time of the English reformation to the 1680s, it was nearly compulsory to be part of the Church of England, upon pain of death or taxation; oh and then there was a civil war in which the whole issue of religion played a significant part. Thus again one of your unifiers was done by compulsion and by the sword (see what Henry did during the pilgrimage of the north).
To use the past to justify current policy is therefore slightly strange, given that the social cohesion was brought about in ways which most would find abhorrent today.
Cranmer said
Since there are no agreed criteria by which conflicting religious claims can be settled, religion is increasingly relegated to the private sphere: morality thereby becomes largely a matter of taste or opinion, and moral error ceases to exist. We are left with autonomy, equality and rights: the creedal values of liberalism that allow each to be whatever he or she chooses. Left unfettered, the assertion of these leads to anarchy, so a values system has to be imposed for society to function at all.
This comment shows a breathtaking ignorance of human nature!
Religion in all its ghastly forms has corrupted moral values not informed them. Get it into your head that people left to themselves are GOOD! I have outlined the mechanism by which this takes place many times here but you still choose to believe in fairy tales and ignore what science and contemporary moral philosophy has proved beyond reasonable doubt. You don’t need God to be good!
You say "As far as England is concerned, foreign encroachments have been fiercely resisted since the Reformation, yet the accommodation of Roman Catholics has developed incrementally of necessity to the extent that they agreed to abide by the laws of the state."
You seem to have conveniently forgotten that prior to the "Reformation" that Catholicism WAS the religion of the English and had been for around a 1000 years.
Protestantism was however a German import.
Remember St Edmund Campion, who spoke up for the majority English who were forced into Protestantism under threat of death, torture, confiscation and starvation.
"In condemning us, you condemn all your own ancestors, all our ancient bishops and kings, all that was once the glory of England -- the island of saints, and the most devoted child of the See of Peter."
YOUR religion has played, and is playing, a central role in the collapse of Society in the UK. Where are all your adherents? Why all the empty churches? Why the exodus to Rome? Why doesn't the Arch Bish' of Canterbury stand up for Christian values and British values?
You talk of the State - since when did a church need the State to enforce its creed? Obviously, since inception as a creature of the State, the CofE has needed it as it is a construct, a secular tool of the State - not a true religion at all.
If it were the English may have migrated willingly.
They did not.
We all know they had to be forced.
'Religion in all its ghastly forms has corrupted moral values not informed them.'
So say you. But then I always thought your idea of morality was subjective. Who are you to question others? Telling people that love, marriage, sex, authority and unity are important but need to be treated with respect may seem to some as a constriction, but to others a liberation. Try not to use such emotional terms as ghastly when you describe something you don't like, it doesn't help your argument and only serves to get up people's noses. But then if that's your only desire then go ahead.
'Get it into your head that people left to themselves are GOOD! I have outlined the mechanism by which this takes place many times here...'
Well no you haven't really. You don't seem to understand the difference between a corruption of religion, and a corrupt religion; lots of the former, very little of the latter. People left to themselves aren't good, they're people. benevolent, but fallible; well meaning but ignorant. Of course some people are nasty, manipulative and selfish but to scapegoat religion as the cause of all evil is a strange concept, though I can see its roots. For one it provides a simple answer to all the problems of the world (and heaven knows humans like easy answers to complex questions) i.e. to remove religion, and two it allows them to believe themselves to be uncorrupted; perfect in their scientific and rational basis of morality, whatever that is.
'...but you still choose to believe in fairy tales and ignore what science and contemporary moral philosophy has proved beyond reasonable doubt.'
Ahh, now I see your intellectual basis. I rather enjoy the juxtaposition of the blind insult with the appeal to authority; especially considering that the authority is 'Science' or at least your interpretation of it. What is it about fairies that atheists love so much? I don't think I'll ever know. I'd like to see some of the peer review articles that claim that without religion we'd all be good. In fact I'd very much like to see the peer review articles that define good scientifically; considering its your only form of authority I know you shouldn't find it too difficult. A meta-analysis would be good, but a few science journal columns might suffice.
'You don’t need God to be good!'
If we assume God not to exist then that is (must be even) true; but then you don't need a vehicle to get from London to Edinburgh either as you can walk; you don't need fertiliser to grow crops; you don't need cement to build a house etc.
God or (assuming him not to exist) belief in him catalyses good. It gives good people encouragement and advice on how to be good, and it gives bad people reasons not to be bad. In the same way hydrogen peroxide will decompose naturally, but not nearly as quickly as with catalase, good people may be good without religion, but with it they have the drive and purpose to do great things.
Just think of the greatest acts ever done; the greatest movements in law, social justice; the greatest acts of charity and sacrifice; even some of the greatest scientific achievements. I can say that almost all were carried out by men of God.
Lakester91 said
Just think of the greatest acts ever done; the greatest movements in law, social justice; the greatest acts of charity and sacrifice; even some of the greatest scientific achievements. I can say that almost all were carried out by men of God.
No! Just think of the trillions of unrecognised unselfish acts made by members of this human species over countless millennia. Those acts of charity and sacrifice that you refer to happen spontaneously in every family in every society every day and have always done so without the need of God and yet you single out a few that have be prompted by members of your own belief system as if they are somehow unique, they are not. Altruism is hard wired into human beings or we would not have survived, why spend years nurturing your offspring when they could provide a least one good meal.
Lakester91: "God or (assuming him not to exist) belief in him catalyses good. It gives good people encouragement and advice on how to be good, and it gives bad people reasons not to be bad."
To be fair, it also leads good people to do bad things thinking that they're good, and gives bad people permission to be very, very bad.
GD,
You have sidestepped my point and not answered it. I'll repeat it for clarity. All people do good, it's called natural law. I am not claiming, as you so dogmatically believe I must, that atheists cannot do good; I am saying that belief in God and following religion, even if they are factually wrong, provides a very useful framework for enhancing and aiding the good works that people do naturally (hence the catalysis analogy).
A man says "I want to do good, but how?" religion then says "Here's how!". If the religion is corrupt, but the man is good, he will refer to natural law and refuse to listen; if the religion is good, but the man corrupt, then he will do evil and use religion as an excuse; if both the religion and the man are good, then he can do great things.
DanJ0,
Look for the differences between corruption of religion and corrupt religion. It is vast, and one of the major differences is in that those who prescribe to a corruption of religion tend to go against many of its rules. See Fred Phelps or Jack T. Chick for examples of hatred which all true Christians denounce.
Any ideology can lead to what you describe, but we cannot do away with ideology, for it defines a man and gives him purpose. To say that religion is the major cause (which you didn't I must add) and eliminate it, would just leave the vacuum for far more malignant philosophies to flourish. Look how non-theistic dictators have tried to eliminate or diminish the role of religion; it is not only because they competed with each other for the soul, but because religion's notion of absolute morality opposed their 'necessary' reforms, whether that be removing freedom of speech or ethnic cleansing or thought policing.
I implore you, even if you cannot or will not believe in God (actually I don't know whether you do), to recognise its necessity in maintaining our democracy. When people stop believing in God they do not believe in nothing, but in anything; and by God that means anything.
Lakester91: "I implore you, even if you cannot or will not believe in God (actually I don't know whether you do), to recognise its necessity in maintaining our democracy. When people stop believing in God they do not believe in nothing, but in anything; and by God that means anything."
Perhaps that should read 'the people'. As an individual person, my atheism doesn't mean I'm adrift in a sea of ideas by any means. I manage to be a staunch liberal pretty easily and that is through academically comparing ideas and finding some wanting and some persuasive. If god is still necessary in our political processes then how does France manage these days?
Lakester91 said
I am saying that belief in God and following religion, even if they are factually wrong, provides a very useful framework for enhancing and aiding the good works that people do naturally
But if you accept that people do good naturally why do we need a framework?
An again your analogy seems to include a superfluous element; religion is not a necessary catalyst if man is good.
Couple that with the fact that if religion is bad, as it so often is, then a potentially good man can be persuaded to do wrong. Islamic suicide bombers are convinced that their actions are good. So having a religious conviction can and often does corrupt man’s natural inclination towards good.
I agree that the indigenous languages - Welsh and Scots Gaelic - should be official languages in Britain. However, the reason that the Welsh and Scots are more likely to be aware of their heritage than the English (apart from being minorities in a largely English state) is that in their schools children are specifically taught about their Welsh or Scots history, culture and traditions. This is denied to English children (it is considered 'racist'), so many are left without a clear idea of their identity - only a rather vague 'Britishness'.
Surely the English, Welsh and Scots should be proud of who they are, as well as of being, secondarily, British, which is what they are in international terms.
GD,
Just ignore the argument, I'm sure it will make it go away. I'm not going to waste my time explaining what I said a third time. I thought a man of science like yourself would understand enzymes and catalysts. Your entire argument this time was riposted by my previous post. Either you didn't read it properly or you're deliberately ignoring the bits that you can't riposte yourself. Don't expect a further reply until you've read it.
DanJ0,
I am not saying that atheists are all adrift in a sea of ideas, I'm just worried about the ship they clamber on to.
' If god is still necessary in our political processes then how does France manage these days?'
Not the best example of a secular state really. They're doing slightly better than during the revolution though. (Perhaps you've forgotten just how close they came to communism after the war, and how some marxist policies still remain)
Lakester91: "Not the best example of a secular state really. They're doing slightly better than during the revolution though. (Perhaps you've forgotten just how close they came to communism after the war, and how some marxist policies still remain)"
Slightly better than during the revolution? :O We can't be talking of the same France here surely?
"I am not saying that atheists are all adrift in a sea of ideas, I'm just worried about the ship they clamber on to."
But why?
We have Enlightenment values, having set aside superstition and the like. We make most decisions, collectively and individually, based on critical reasoning. Science informs of us of how the physical world works. We recognise the value of individuality and support creativity.
I'm a liberal and I believe liberty is a social Good. I am passionate about the rule of law, having seen many places which struggle. I love the way we value universal education here. And so on. In short, I am a product of a society that has all that stuff, I didn't become an adult as a blank sheet. I don't need to clamber on to anything now.
DanJ0,
I've mentioned before, that it is only arrogance that leads us to believe that the terrors of the past cannot happen again. Those who cannot remember the past may be condemned to repeat it, but the same is of those who don't understand it.
Enlightenment values were a Christian mindset coming from the renaissance. Only atheist revisionists believe it to be atheistic in nature.
We, as a society, don't make decisions based on critical reasoning, as any look at any Government can show. Your whole post shows what you want to believe about modern society, not what is true. Look at the news, at your fellow britons of all classes and you will not see the amazing enlightened values of what you believe to be the intellectual elite.
They no longer believe in anything, and they reap the sadness that comes from that state. It is no surprise that, despite increase in standards of living, our satisfaction in life is eroding; that despite the poor-rich divide being so narrower than 100 years ago, greed is ever more rife. People have lost purpose and are trying to find happiness, whether it be with money or sex or drugs or alcohol. These are those who I fear for most. How easy it was from introducing abortion as a medical emergency, to indoctrinating it to us as a right; how easy it will be to turn voluntary euthanasia into presumed consent, to becoming compulsory. Progression of immorality is easy, just sneak it in slowly; remove the idea of absolute morality and anything can and will become moral. Remove the foundations of the United Kingdom and we will cease to exist.
If despots or tyrants take over, it will be those who subscribe to no morality who will be most easily manipulated. In a moral vacuum, any philosophy is significant. We have been taught that any restrictive morality is to be hated; when a hateful morality is introduced by the powers that be, then both Christians and Liberal Atheists will wish that we had kept our Christian heritage.
My ''core value'' is xenophobia.
The older I become the more sense it makes; and yet, people use the word as if it was somehow undesirable ... amazing!
If Evolutionary(Theory) is correct, if those who promote Libertinism are correct,if those who promote the Rights of Man, freedom of the individual, and if those who promote a Godless World are correct........................
then this World must just be getting better and better!.
Then why is it not?
We are probably the most technologically advanced we have ever been, man can change his environment but he cannot change himself.
The tragedy is man, instead of aiming for the stars has lowered his eyes and lowered his aspirations to line up with his fallen nature.
Evolutionary theory has taught an entire Generation that they are merely animals with bigger brains(mostly)and everything can be reduced to a scientific formula,if the five senses cannot detect it,if you cannot weigh it and measure it then........... it cannot exist (he reasons.)
Man has replaced God(with himself) and has now deified himself and his intellect.
What a fool is man, he has fallen for the oldest satanic lie in the Universe" you can be as God, you can know good and evil."
God knew evil as being outside of himself.God is light in Him there is no Darkness at all.
Man was to know evil by direct experience.Man was trapped in the darkness and there is only the Light of the Gospel to lead him out.
Len: "Evolutionary theory has taught an entire Generation that they are merely animals with bigger brains(mostly)and everything can be reduced to a scientific formula,if the five senses cannot detect it,if you cannot weigh it and measure it then........... it cannot exist (he reasons.)"
If that is the way the theory of evolution by natural selection has been taught then something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.
Lakester91: "If despots or tyrants take over, it will be those who subscribe to no morality who will be most easily manipulated. In a moral vacuum, any philosophy is significant. We have been taught that any restrictive morality is to be hated; [...]"
Seriously, do you know of anyone, aside from extreme sociopaths, who subscribes to 'no morality'? Where on earth exists a 'moral vacuum'? Is this the world in which you imagine atheists live? It's bizarre.
"Progression of immorality is easy, just sneak it in slowly; remove the idea of absolute morality and anything can and will become moral."
You don't actually believe that. No, really, you don't I'm sure. It's palpable nonsense. It's like a scare story for children.
You know, I spent 18 months or so talking to the Jehovah Witnesses so I could understand who and what they are. Interesting people for the most part.
But anyway, their schtick as you may know is to come to the door and open with something along the lines of how terrible the world is at the moment. Clearly they expect people to agree so they can produce 'the solution'.
Each time it happens, I tell them exactly how bloody wonderful everything really is when you learn to look. Dawkins gets this completely, I know. It's very odd that I have to point this out to the religious of all types time and again.
Lakester91: "Enlightenment values were a Christian mindset coming from the renaissance. Only atheist revisionists believe it to be atheistic in nature."
This, too. I try to get this across but perhaps it doesn't get there for one reason or another. Stuff evolves. I don't know any atheists who say the Enlightenment was an atheist revolution i.e. a disconnected jump. We're always products of where we're from and our ideas follow a similar pattern even if people sometimes have a revelation from seeing things a bit differently. Think of a bunch of stepping stones across a river, you don't jump across the river in one go. Once you're few stones in, it doesn't really matter what's behind. Those previous stones were useful to get you where you are but they're not necessary any long to get you where you are going.
Well the 'stepping stone' theory is ok if you all want to go in the same direction or you want to spend your time going back and forth with stones!
How about the 'stilt theory'I don`t want to wade through, or follow someone else`s stones ,I prefer to rise above the situation.:)
'Seriously, do you know of anyone, aside from extreme sociopaths, who subscribes to 'no morality'? Where on earth exists a 'moral vacuum'? Is this the world in which you imagine atheists live? It's bizarre.'
Not clear enough, gotcha. I meant subscribe to no morality to mean doesn't subscribe to a morality (morality being a specific moral code or philosophy). Moral vacuum is supposed to mean an area without a structured and definable moral basis.
'This, too. I try to get this across but perhaps it doesn't get there for one reason or another. Stuff evolves. I don't know any atheists who say the Enlightenment was an atheist revolution i.e. a disconnected jump. We're always products of where we're from and our ideas follow a similar pattern even if people sometimes have a revelation from seeing things a bit differently. Think of a bunch of stepping stones across a river, you don't jump across the river in one go. Once you're few stones in, it doesn't really matter what's behind. Those previous stones were useful to get you where you are but they're not necessary any long to get you where you are going.'
A good enough analogy but it is based on a liberal myth; i.e. that society has always been moving forward toward enlightenment and practical utopia. The idea that every step made has been forward. It's backed up by historical revisionism that seeks to define the people of the past as dim-witted superstitious fools who had no knowledge of science at all. Your analogy fall down when we expand the river; in the river of the world you cannot see the other side. You make your way across with no regard to where you have stepped or where you are stepping. Discarding these stones they crumble and sink. Suddenly you find yourself surrounded by water; there's no way back as the steps have all crumbled; all you can do is take your chances in the water.
I'd say building a society is more like building a grand building. You cannot say, "we have this fine entrance hall, elegant dining room, ornately decorated bedrooms and perfectly finished brickwork, now we can remove the foundations as they are no longer necessary"
If we forget our past; if we deny our forebears; refuse to understand the circumstances behind our origin, then we will lose everything that has been built over so many years. If you forget how modern democracy was created in the Christian faith, then you will have no idea how to defend it when it is attacked.
"Progression of immorality is easy, just sneak it in slowly; remove the idea of absolute morality and anything can and will become moral."
'You don't actually believe that. No, really, you don't I'm sure. It's palpable nonsense. It's like a scare story for children.'
Damn right I do, I could mark precedent in Nazi Germany, where children were encouraged to shop their parents for thought crimes, the euthanasia program was stopped only by the action of the Catholic Church; where hostility to Jews and Communists was openly practised; where an entire nation believed in racial superiority and the sterilisation and murder of the disabled. How terrible is it for us to assume that this was simply the Germans' inherent evil?
No I'll take precedence in this country (I actually did in the post you quote for, but hey).
Abortion: illegal and immoral -> immoral but justified in some circumstances -> not immoral but undesirable -> common right of every woman without question.
That took less than 50 years. The proof will be when you tell me that this analogy is wrong because abortion IS a right; that what was once considered abominably wrong is now perfectly fine. After the war, euthanasia was considered evil and confined to the dustbin of history. Now it has made its comeback and many consider it fine in certain circumstances; should it be legalised we'll find the next generation saying its an inalienable right. Damn right its a scare story, but this story's true.
I think the pensioner who chased off 6 robbers intent on robbing a jewellers by hitting them with her handbag epitomises what being British means; despite those who want to change it something, dare I say, mongrel!
As an aside, this story has been reported around the World.
So there you go, now the World knows what it means to be British. ;-)
I smile, because I could imagine my Mum doing something like this as well.
All we have to do is that into the thick skulls of our gerrymandering, social engeering polticos and everything else will fall into place.
"That took less than 50 years. The proof will be when you tell me that this analogy is wrong because abortion IS a right; that what was once considered abominably wrong is now perfectly fine."
I don't decide what is right or wrong using Christian principles. I do, however, use alternative moral reasoning. Therefore, calling it proof if I disgree that our collective moral sense is deteriorating simply because it is less Christian is mere sophistry.
We don't burn witches or heretics alive in the UK any more and we don't torture people into recanting their religious beliefs in favour of the latest set either. Is that a moral deterioration or a moral improvement and what does it prove for me to say that I'm glad we've left all that behind?
graham Davis said 8 February 2011 14:47 & DanJo said 8 February 2011 20:06
I have a question for you both, as seemingly fellow atheists (not militant one's, mind you), based on an atheist's version of the Euthyphro Dilemma:
1. Is something good because atheists proclaim it to be good?
2. Or, do atheists proclaim something to be good, because it is good?
I am just asking, so we can get a feel for the kind of 'Society' you are promoting here with your comments?
So Says KINGOFHIGHCS
How will that help the collective you get a feel for it?
@DanJo said 8 February 2011 23:13 and @various times 8 February 2011
Here are a few things you stated that I was wondering, as part of the collective, were left in limbo and needed some clarity as to how you arrived at these?
1 'I don't struggle with a sense of morality just because I reject the so-called MORAL absolutism of Christianity or Islam. I don't wake up and think that today my MORALS are going to be based on my wanting some money. They're DEEPLY ingrained.
2 'In fact, they're probably based on a combination of MY recognising the human condition, and value pluralism from our social environment, which is in itself based on RECOGNISING the human condition. In short, they're PRETTY SOLID THINGS and they're held across society.'
3 '"While some repudiate the idea that the Christian religion can any longer be a unifying force for Britain, it has to be observed that it has bequeathed to us our system of laws, administration of justice and our understanding of liberty." 'Yes, it has certainly contributed to all that. That doesn't mean it NEEDS to be CORE now though. The GOOD of the established church TODAYS NEEDS to be argued in TODAY'S TERMS rather than in nostalgic ones.'
4 'That is, we are FREE to do as we PLEASE unless restricted by law, and the law OUGHT to be there to prevent harm to others.'
5 'For instance, equality is much derided these days but that's a CORE BRITISH VALUE too when it is PROPERLY understood to mean 'due fairness'. If some religious people cannot accept that (say) women are essentially equal in our culture (now) then that concept must be IMPOSED because it is surely a CORE ONE.'
6 'To be fair, it also leads GOOD people to do BAD things thinking that they're GOOD, and gives BAD people permission to be very, very BAD.'
Maybe the 'COLLECTIVE' would be interested in understanding how YOU arrive at your logic and reasoning as an atheist, who feels they have a BETTER WAY than any others, past or present, based on anything except secularist atheism.
1/64,000,000 'The Collective' (BORG)
You have got to be joking, right?
I'm not going to write you what would probably be the length of an academic thesis in the comments area of a blog.
If you have a succinct question (without weird capitalising) suitable for this sort of colloquial media then I'll try to answer it.
However, I won't see it until tomorrow.
DanJo said 9 February 2011 00:26
1. Is something good because atheists proclaim it to be good?
2. Or, do atheists proclaim something to be good, because it is good?
Could it be simpler???
A simple answer would have sufficed.
You criticise Christianity but show no reason why your statements are anything but your own 'BIASED', arbitrary opinions.
As always, we get 'toss away' statements from atheists on this blog but never an answer to a specific question.
How very 'Modern' and how very 'DAWKINS' of you!
(without weird capitalising) It's called EMPHASIS, are you being imbecilic on purpose?
So Says KINGOFHIGHCS
DanJo said 9 February 2011 00:26
There is a reason for my question.
I quote William Blake;
‘He who would do good to another must do it in Minute Particulars. General Good is the plea of the scoundrel, hypocrite and flatterer’.
So answer me!
So Says KINGOFHIGHCS
"A simple answer would have sufficed."
No, you need a simple answer for your purpose. The actual answer is by necessity a detailed one so a simple answer would not suffice.
I am quite prepared to discuss why I cannot accept the moral absolutism of Christianity and why I find at least one alternative more suitable.
However I don't like your tone [1]. I can see you've entered this immediately with fists clenched so it will come to nothing. Jog on.
[1] or your shouty words all over the place, to be honest.
All this illustrates(beautifully) the moral quagmire you descend into when you'eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil'and man 'plays God' and makes up his own' moral code'.
DanJ0,
You didn't answer the point. I've shown how immorality has become moral in at least two different places within the last 100 years.
'I don't decide what is right or wrong using Christian principles. I do, however, use alternative moral reasoning. Therefore, calling it proof if I disgree that our collective moral sense is deteriorating simply because it is less Christian is mere sophistry.'
I am rather worried that protection of the vulnerable in our society from being killed by the state is confined only to Christian morality. Doesn't 'alternative moral reasoning' mean whatever you want it to mean. Seems a bit open to interpretation. The 'alternative' bit I assume means that you can believe whatever you wish and call it moral. This furthers my point not refutes it. It is proof of how something we once considered abominable is now pushed on women as a right. Today incest, bestiality and polygamy are considered wrong; are you telling me that if they were considered morally acceptable then they would be? Or do you just take your moral judgements from a single point in time and judge those of the past and future by them?
'We don't burn witches...'
Nope, and we never did; they were garrotted. Besides, the numbers have been grossly exaggerated. Do you not watch QI? The only people who were executed were those who were genuinely trying to hurt people with black magic, and that was very few.
'...or heretics alive in the UK any more...'
Not since Henry, Mary and Elizabeth no, and never before either. Not really a good point to make considering our immense history as an island of non heretic-burners.
'...and we don't torture people into recanting their religious beliefs in favour of the latest set either.'
When the hell did that ever happen? Are you just making stuff up now?
'Is that a moral deterioration or a moral improvement and what does it prove for me to say that I'm glad we've left all that behind?'
How can you tell? With your transient moral system how can you trust what we now 'believe' as a society? Nazi germany, Soviet Russia, Imperial Japan; they all had people who thought they were being moral. How will you be able to tell when morality has been corrupted, if you think it is transient and relative?
KINGOFHIGHCS said...
1. Is something good because atheists proclaim it to be good?
2. Or, do atheists proclaim something to be good, because it is good?
No2 but with reservations.
Human society would not exist without a very large measure of “good”, ie altruism, generosity, empathy etc. That it is a biological imperative could mean that it has no moral worth; we don’t condemn a Lion killing an antelope or applaud the Lark when she draws the attention of a predator away from her young. In the same way it could be said that if our “good” behaviour is driven by instinct then it is not morally superior to bad behaviour.
However human society has evolved a bit further than other species to the extent that our behaviour exists within a cultural environment, as well as a biological one, that passes values from one generation to the next outside of the close family environment as well as within it. We have laws that are derived from our instinctive understanding of “good” and “bad”. We have evolved political systems that try to enhance the common good and improve the lot of those who live within them.
So “morality” that is imposed by religious dictat will always be subject to the whims of a particular belief system. No doubt the Aztecs were sincere when they ripped the beating hearts from sacrificial victims; they believed that it was essential to placate their own deity, similarly the suicide bombers.
So I maintain that the simple und universally understood values that are intrinsic to human beings are superior to those imposed by any supernatural belief system. As the latter have been invented by man (not God) they follow the prejudice and discrimination of those who invented them and the mores of the societies in which they were formed. There is no better example of the corruption of man’s good nature than Islam.
Lakester91, there are a number of different things going on in this and I don't suppose it will be easy to explain. I'm willing to give it a try, but not all at once.
On the one hand, there is meta-ethics and on the other there is normative ethics. There's also a metaphysical question about the nature and basis of moral facts to be discussed.
Morality and ethics are related but not exactly the same thing. The difference is important here. If one wants to engage in moral reasoning then one needs to identify moral principles of course.
Getting to those moral principles probably involves a discussion about moral intuition. What we think that is, where it comes from, and how we use it might be an interesting discussion. This is where the real world comes in as far as I am concerned.
I also don't think the opposite of absolute morality is relative morality. I have a particular interest in value pluralism which I think is relevant in a discussion of this.
Finally, it seems to me that absolute morality is sometimes used simply as an appeal to authority. Since there are multiple claims of absolute morality then on what basis do we decide which one to use?
It seems to me on the face of it that defining morality as (say) part of the essential character of the Christian god is just an assertion of a single moral principle. I can see why some people might think moral reasoning without this is like trying to lift yourself by your boot laces but I think that is a bit simplistic myself.
Hmm. Morality. Any of these verses contradict with our innate morality sensors?
[17:26]
Give the relative his right, and the needy and the wayfarer. And do not squander recklessly.
[17:27]
Surely, squanderers are brothers of satans, and the Satan is very ungrateful to his Lord.
[17:28]
And if you turn away from them looking for a bounty from your Lord you are expecting, then speak to them in polite words.
[17:29]
And do not keep your hand tied to your neck, nor extend it to the full extent, lest you should be sitting reproached, empty-handed.
[17:30]
Indeed, your Lord expands sustenance for whomsoever He wills, and constricts (for whomsoever He wills). Surely, He is All-Aware of His servants, All-Seeing.
[17:31]
Do not kill your children for fear of poverty. We provide sustenance to them and to you, too. Killing them is a great sin indeed.
[17:32]
Do not even go close to fornication. It is indeed a shameful act, and an evil way to follow.
[17:33]
Do not kill any person the life of whom is sanctified by Allah, except for a just reason. And whoever is killed unjustly, We have invested his heir with authority (of equal retaliation), but he must not cross the limit in the matter of killing. Surely, he will be helped.
[17:34]
Do not go near the property of an orphan, except in a manner that is good, until he comes to his maturity. And fulfill the covenant. Surely, the covenant shall be asked about (on the Day of Reckoning).
[17:35]
And give full measure when you measure, and weigh with a straight balance. That is fair, and better at the end.
[17:36]
And do not follow a thing about which you have no knowledge. Surely, the ear, the eye and the heart - each one of them shall be interrogated about.
[17:37]
Do not walk on the earth in haughty style. You can neither tear the earth apart, nor can you match the mountains in height.
[17:38]
That which is evil, of all these, is detestable in the sight of your Lord.
Man without guidance and references would be doomed to judge by his own lone judgement devoid of any basis of comparison. How could he be sure that his morality is up to the standards of being good? Examples are all around us of those who tried and failed. With millions of humans laid to waste.
Most of the heartless men who had killed aplenty with unimaginable, unnecessary brutalities and cruelties were atheists and Christians, Johnny and Mr. Graham Davis. In case we forget. The suicide bombers are incomparable to them. Those lovely intellectuals would rather killed and tortured others without spilling even a drop of their own precious blood. The suicide bombers died for their sins of killing by dying with their victims. They do not choose to live to kill another day.
srizals: "Man without guidance and references would be doomed to judge by his own lone judgement devoid of any basis of comparison."
Luckily, we are not on our own. We live in societies where we have normative ethics which are usually established over a long period of time and probably through some trial and error.
Srizals, you need to change your ESL teacher. Your English is going from bad to worse.
wv: bally [awful]
Srizels,
Suicide bombers will end up in a totally different destination than the one they expect!.
"Srizals, you need to change your ESL teacher. Your English is going from bad to worse"
He could do with changing his history teacher as well.
Srizals old chum, you never cease to amaze me!
who cares, Im english
"The suicide bombers died for their sins of killing by dying with their victims. They do not choose to live to kill another day."
Well, thanks for sorting that one out. They're really just fine, decent chaps!
Anon at 15:03,
You can be my teacher if only you are not that anonymously annoying. I learn from everyone and I take one step at a time, every day. From the wise, as an example to follow and from the not so wise, as an example to avoid being one. At least I'm trying and learning. What other language do you know of, Mr. Smarty pants? Irish English or Scottish English? Could you be decent enough to point at my bad English, and maybe I would be decent enough to point at your bad manners. At least I know your language. Do you know my language? I’m almost trilingual. What about you?
Mr. LeucipottomySpoon82, my, that was difficult,
History is my favourite subject. For starters, do you know who owned the Israelites during the hail of the Pharaoh before they went to Palestine? And could a slave be free from his master unlawfully?
DanJO, it is true that we have each other to remind ourselves of our conducts and behaviours but sometimes we are too proud or too scared to defend the truth or to remedy the error in our society and especially in ourselves. Most of the time, we have to rely on collective judgements and sometimes our judgements differ greatly, particularly when certain interest gets in the way. That is why we must have a higher source as a reference. A source that judge without any fear or favour in upholding the truth.
Len, the suicide bombers have gone astray. The hideous ‘civilised’ killers that they are trying to imitate and outmatch are worse. The circle of violence will never end unless they are stopped. They are deadlier and crazier than the terrorists, with smarter suits, fancier smiles and fatter pockets. They had killed and are willing to kill the entire humanity without remorse and hesitation. When the terrorists kill indiscriminately, they are evil terrorists. When they kill indiscriminately, it is total war. The double standard judgement will lead us to nowhere, except anarchy.
Owl, if only you have experienced the death, the anguish and the fear of the citizens in the countries overran by yours and by those who were supported by your country, unconditionally. Maybe then you’ll understand what drive the terrorist.
srizals "That is why we must have a higher source as a reference. A source that judge without any fear or favour in upholding the truth."
I suppose we could create a concept of an omniscient god as a place-holder for that and imagine what we would do if we were it. The idea is not that bad really. It's like the approach John Rawls takes in A Theory of Justice.
The problem I can see is that if we're not careful then someone or some organisation will hijack the whole thing and write a book or books as though he were influenced by that god. If that happens then we're in Big Trouble because all sorts of sub-ordinate moral principles will probably be introduced which are likely to be corrupt.
"Mr. LeucipottomySpoon82, my, that was difficult,"
I don't understand that. What was difficult?
Srizals,
The difference between a soldier and a suicide bomber:
A soldier is employed to fight enemy combatants in the defence of the realm; he is trained to avoid civilian deaths; he kills discriminately.
A suicide bomber is recruited for no purpose other than destruction; he is trained to kill as many civilians as possible; he also kills discriminately, but he aims for the innocent, the non-combatant, the child and the mother, the father and the grandparent.
It disgusts me that you can make such a simplistic and overtly false comparison.
If you want to look at fear and death in a population, just go to any Muslim dominated country and call yourself a Christian or apostate. You're deliberate amnesia has forgotten how the majority of violence in Iraq and Afghanistan is muslim on muslim. Pray tell me how that is the Christian's fault.
'The problem I can see is that if we're not careful then someone or some organisation will hijack the whole thing and write a book or books as though he were influenced by that god. If that happens then we're in Big Trouble because all sorts of sub-ordinate moral principles will probably be introduced which are likely to be corrupt.'
I can see what you're trying to say, but you've failed to see how exactly morality is divined in the Church. It has essentially been 2000 (probably 5000 if you include the Israelites) years of logical and theological thinking. Thinking about the best way to build a cohesive society and a people who always work for the happiness of others. It is easy to classify some rules as arbitrary, but then it's because you've never even attempted to discover the meaning behind them. Just look at the common view on Catholics and contraception; so many still think it's about producing as many Catholics as possible.
The basis of morality is logic, derived from natural law. These both come from God as God has logic as part of his nature (it's amazing how many arguments for the non-existence of God fall down when one understands this). However, even if we assume God to not exist, then the morality is still the same. Of course in reality if God not to exist, then nothing would, but I wish to show you that even objective morality does not have to be confined to the religious believer.
"Thinking about the best way to build a cohesive society and a people who always work for the happiness of others."
I'm afraid I take a rather dim view of the motivations of the Catholic Church as an organisation whether or not its magisterium actually has the goals your claim.
The word that stands out for me in the quote there is happiness. What does that actually mean and how is it measured? Is it, by any chance, based on the notion of man as a created being in worshipping relationshop with its creator?
As an individual, would I be happier creating things if I had an artistic nature rather than dedicating my life to 'Jesus'? As a society, would we be collectively happier if everyone dedicated their lives to 'Jesus' rather than to their own goals?
Would future generations be happier if past generations did this instead of (say) pursuing their own personal goals which may or may not result in advances which benefit mankind as a whole?
"However, even if we assume God to not exist, then the morality is still the same.Of course in reality if God not to exist, then nothing would"
Why would nothing exist and why are you capitalising the word god there? Our reality could be the unintended consequences of a bigger physical process for all you know. In fact, there could be a chain of those.
Lakester91, there is no difference at all between a trained combatant than a simple terrorist overwhelmed by hate. They kill. For you, the trained soldiers kill discriminately. Well, not in Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki during World War 2, Jerusalem when the crusaders, Christian, took it from the Muslims, slaughtering the Jews and even Christians as they go along while saying, God wills it.
You better check this out,
“The issue is highly sensitive in Afghanistan, with more than 8,000 deaths in the eight years since the fall of the Taliban”.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-officer-held-over-afghan-casualties-leak-1546407.html
“When U.S. warplanes strafed [with AC-130 gunships] the farming village of Chowkar-Karez, 25 miles north of Kandahar on October 22-23rd,killing at least 93 civilians, a Pentagon official said, "the people there are dead because we wanted them dead." The reason? They sympathized with the Taliban1. When asked about the Chowkar incident, Rumsfeld replied, "I cannot deal with that particular village."2
http://cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm
How many civilians killed and being killed by the terrorists in your peaceful country, Lakester91? Was it higher than during the IRA rebellion? No one knew what exactly going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. People are dying there without any apparent reason. Maybe in another 50 years from now, we will know the exact numbers.
Why are your troops in Afghanistan, Lakester91? Was it because the legacy of the Anglo-Afghan war? Do you even know what justify a war?
I made a living holding a gun once Lakester91, the tendency of trying it out on a live target is real. Ask anyone who had held a weapon in his hand. The feeling of superiority and invincibility run through your veins. You are no longer you. I respect any soldiers that performed their duty in fighting and killing enemy soldiers. It is understandable and acceptable by all. It is a norm of war but the death of the helpless civilians could never be justified. Others would and could copy the senseless killing in order to inflict the same despair and pain onto his ruthless and heartless enemy.
Muslims were killing Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq, true, but the death and destruction do not exceed the doing of your country and her allies. The West had done it in a greater scale of destruction, larger number of casualties and most importantly, in a longer period of time. And you are wondering what drives the terrorist.
I know you don't like to feel being on the wrong side of the coin. But you are. It's in the blood of your Western civilisation. Most White men are natural born killers. The Red Indians knew about it, and so does the Aztec. And the Afghanis too.
“A dozen US soldiers are facing trail accused of being part of a 'kill team' that allegedly killed Afghan civilians in an arbitrary fashion - and they even collected their victims' fingers as trophies of war”.
http://open.salon.com/blog/behind_blue_eyes/2010/09/10/kill_squad_member_there_are_no_more_good_men_left_here
Maybe it’s the feel good feeling of being redeemed by someone else’s blood. Most believe they will never have to carry the burden of their own real sins, so there’s no remorse. Look at Blair when he apologizes. Can you see any redemption on his face?
As for any would be terrorist reading this, you are just as ugly as the baby killers. Be a true freedom fighter and die bravely on the battlefield, bleeding your blood and the blood of heavily armed and armoured, high-tech monsters, out-gunned and out-matched. It is much better and more honourable. History will remember you. Die gloriously. You never can while having the blood of the helpless on your hands. Not all in the West are sick killers. There are the sane and the good among them. You might kill them unknowingly.
Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the current invasion by your country on Afghanistan? Are they wrong to hate Christians who coincidently have the same faith of their invaders? Can't some Christians wait until the war is over to preach them about Christianity? Look what happened in Iraq.
'I'm afraid I take a rather dim view of the motivations of the Catholic Church as an organisation whether or not its magisterium actually has the goals your claim.'
That just leads to a circular argument. If you make such an assumption then it is easy to find 'proof' that it is true, just by applying the assumption to past events.
In reality I fail to see what selfish motivation they really have for promoting love and self sacrifice, when they could have gone with Mohammed's conversion by the sword idea. Why centre a religion around a poor Nazarene carpenter/stonemason when a warrior priest or king would grab people's attention better. The argument for Christianity as an excuse for power falls down when you realise it takes just 5 seconds to think of a more effective way they could have structured it.
'As an individual, would I be happier creating things if I had an artistic nature rather than dedicating my life to 'Jesus'? As a society, would we be collectively happier if everyone dedicated their lives to 'Jesus' rather than to their own goals?'
No one says that you can't do both. I don't understand your point. What do you think renaissance art was all about? We create and discover and understand beauty, not for our own glory but for the glory of God. The difference is the motivation, not necessarily the art.
'Why would nothing exist and why are you capitalising the word god there? Our reality could be the unintended consequences of a bigger physical process for all you know. In fact, there could be a chain of those.'
Logic; The universe is generally agreed scientifically to have a beginning; nothing can bring itself into existence; therefore something created the universe. This force is most likely the definition of our various transient realities, such as logic and love. We call it God.
Either way you're sidestepping the point aren't you? Or do you agree that absolute morality is a real existence even if you don't believe in a God?
'Muslims were killing Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq, true, but the death and destruction do not exceed the doing of your country and her allies. The West had done it in a greater scale of destruction, larger number of casualties and most importantly, in a longer period of time. And you are wondering what drives the terrorist.'
Except muslim-muslim violence far outweighs the civilian casualties of both wars. Suicide bombers alone have killed more non-combatants than the allied forces. Am I wondering what drives the terrorist? Yes, considering the twin tower attacks were before the Afghan war. But then considering your attempts to justify and nullify their behaviour I'm starting to think they don't have any real excuse apart from directionless hatred.
'I know you don't like to feel being on the wrong side of the coin. But you are. It's in the blood of your Western civilisation. Most White men are natural born killers. The Red Indians knew about it, and so does the Aztec. And the Afghanis too.'
Good old fashioned racism. Don't think you can get away with it just because it's about white people. I think Islam should be very careful about who it calls violent.
'Are they wrong to hate Christians who coincidently have the same faith of their invaders?'
How hateful is it that you imply that their deaths are justified due to shared religion. Christian persecution in endemic and pathological in Islamic dominated countries; it didn't suddenly pop up out of the blue 9 years ago. Your attempt to justify it sickens me and you should be ashamed.
Furthering your point, would it not be fair, therefore, to say that our society is far more civilised, given the distinct lack of anti-muslim violence after 7/7 or does it not work both ways?
"Logic; The universe is generally agreed scientifically to have a beginning; nothing can bring itself into existence; therefore something created the universe. This force is most likely the definition of our various transient realities, such as logic and love. We call it God."
Most likely? Oh I think not! It seems very, very unlikely to me. Some sort of god-like thing to us may exist but the Christian one is so unlikely in all its intricate detail with respect to mankind that it is barely worth considering.
"Either way you're sidestepping the point aren't you? Or do you agree that absolute morality is a real existence even if you don't believe in a God?"
No I do not agree that it exists. What point am I skipping? We go around in circles, I think. This is probably to do with defining, understanding, and using the philosophical terms, together with jumping between morality, normative ethics, and applied ethics.
I do not accept that a god exists in the form you believe. If that is the single moral principle upon which all Christian morality is derived then we have an almost insurmountable problem.
Christians may argue that the Christian moral code is coherent and consistent. By observation of Christian debate, I would say that it isn't but hey. Even if I were to accept it is then the overall argument would be logically valid but not logically sound.
I think our moral principles come from our values. I think our values come from our nature, our experience, and our environment. I don't think our values are instances of a single class of thing either. Therefore, I think some moral problems inevitably have multiple correct moral solutions.
I think we derive an ethical framework from our values and codify it in law and in other things. Hence, our framework may change over time. This is a good thing, I would say, provided it is evolutionary.
I think individual have a variable sense of our values at the level of each value and when assessing situations which involve multiple values. This is to be expected because values don't have units of measurement and we are not computers following algorithm.
As you can probably see, we are not talking about the same things and while our ethics are likely to be very similar [1] our moral reasoning is quite different.
[1] Except, I imagine, in medical ethics where I find many Christians have reached the wrong conclusions. This is obviously to do with their distorted understanding of the human condition.
Ooh, as a medical student I would be interested in your views on medical ethics.
'If that is the single moral principle upon which all Christian morality is derived then we have an almost insurmountable problem.'
Pretty much the opposite of what I said. I said that the Christian moral code is based on logic, not blind adherence to scripture.
'This is a good thing, I would say, provided it is evolutionary.'
Not necessarily; mutation is almost invariably a bad thing, and even positive adaptations such as the cystic fibrosis and sickle cell anaemia genes can have many unintended consequences. The problem with morality in this country is that it may mutate, but it doesn't naturally select. Abortion was introduced with the precept that it would remain an emergency medicine, yet even though it has been ritually abused to the point where it's considered a human right, no one will admit that the legislation is flawed. Contraception only sex education has seen us remain the European country with the highest teenage pregnancy rate, and the gap has increased (despite abortion by morning after pill and contraceptive pill not counting); will anyone admit that encouraging and normalising pre-16/pre-marital sex whilst pushing contraception doesn't work. It's not even like the policy makers actually look at the evidence. If 70% of unplanned pregnancies in this country are due to contraceptive failure, then will telling people to use contraception even dent the figures? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1574044/Learning-Dutch-lessons-on-teen-pregnancy.html sums up our failings compared to the Dutch. You think that by throwing out the Christian basis for our morality would allow it to 'evolve', but in reality it is just swapping one dogma for another.
It seems to me that your suspicion of religion is too great, while your faith in Governance unfounded.
BTW, could anyone tell me how to hyperlink in posts?
I cannot write it down here without it 'doing' the hyperlink, but here is the page that can tell you:
Hyperlinking
Dutch Lessons on Teen Pregnancy
Thanks LS82
"Pretty much the opposite of what I said. I said that the Christian moral code is based on logic, not blind adherence to scripture."
We don't really talk in the same technical language, do we? Moral principles are the things we reason from. Like premises in an argument. The argument contains the logic. Arguments are based on premises and a structure which logically leads to a conclusion if it is a valid argument.
For (say) a Utilitarian, there is one fundamental moral principle from which everything is derived: pleasure (or something similar as a moral good). Utilitarians are 'monists' in that respect.
For someone like me who believes that our morals in the real world come from our values, there is no single moral principle from which a moral code can be derived. I am therefore not a 'monist' in that respect. There are multiple moral goods.
As I understand it, Christian morality has a single moral principle: the essential character of its god. From this one derives a framework of ethics to live by using moral reasoning.
So, when I say that if god is the single moral principle upon which all Christian morality is derived then we have an almost insurmountable problem and you reply that the Christian moral code is based on logic then it's not really a relevant reply, is it?
Your talk of abortion and contraception is a switch to applied ethics now.
This means one needs to agree on some sort of means of communication to discuss it sensibly. If we agreed on the moral principles then we could work through various arguments and check if the conclusions logically follow.
However, we do not agree on the moral principles even if we agree on the content of the conclusions. The conclusions here are effectively our shared ethics. Sharing ethics has its downside because it seems on the face of it that we're not that far apart when we are.
Formal moral reasoning is normally the domain of philosophers because real world arguments are often very complex and need to be studied to tease out all the unstated assumptions. However, most people have a go anyway, often relying heavily on moral intuition.
When we look at an issue like abortion, it seems like people tend to look at the conclusion first and then work backwards by using analogies and the like. This is not such a bad approach because it still shows where there is little or no agreement.
When I look at (say) second trimester abortion, I look first at what is being aborted: the foetus. Now, to me this is a proto-human-being in development but not a person. To you, perhaps, this is a person like you or me, only smaller.
There we have a divergence which we can argue about. Now, I rarely find that arguments here are about the biological details. I usually find they're religious arguments about the gift of life, or spirits, or something similar couched in the language of rights. So what's the point continuing if I don't have religious beliefs.
Perhaps we could argue about the consequences as I suppose you are doing above (I haven't looked at the link so far). But again we need to agree terms. How are we reasoning and measuring outcomes? Is it (say) deontological reasoning, followed by a consequentialist one? How much value do we place on the individual outcomes and how much for society's?
If I think it is important that a woman has a choice over how her body is used, at least until the foetus has (say) reached a certain brain development stage, then how do we compare that with the loss of potential which we value if the foetus fails to become a person? If I value the potential over the woman's choice then how do I value the potential impact on her life? And so on.
We can't really argue these things until we are aware, even if just roughly, of how the other's value system works. Discovery of that is sometimes quite rewarding.
However, if the other person is religious then it is almost never rewarding because no matter what they are arguing, the overwhelming problem is that their moral reasoning is based on what they think god wants and I reject their concept of god. As such, their argument is unsound to me and the conclusions are unsupported.
By the way, I am familar with the common religious argument that all 'bad' things are the consequence of not following god's plan and that it would be all fine and dandy if only we did. I always find that very tedious but I can probably motivate myself to argue against it if pushed.
'We don't really talk in the same technical language, do we? Moral principles are the things we reason from. Like premises in an argument. The argument contains the logic. Arguments are based on premises and a structure which logically leads to a conclusion if it is a valid argument.'
Yes I did explain it before, social cohesion, fulfilment and contentment; I think love appears to be the main theme though.
'Now, to me this is a proto-human-being in development but not a person.'
As a scientifically minded person and a student of medicine I'd say it is a human being; 46 (or thereabouts) chromosomes, metabolically active, distinctly human cells; the foetus (strange how those in the pro-abortion camp use this medicalisation terminology when it is actually latin for offspring) is undeniable alive and undeniably human. It's so easy to kill someone you have dehumanised, and such arguments show desperation for justification with frightening flashbacks to last century.
My argument is that either all life is worth saving or no life is; especially seeing as, at least in your view, there is no arbitrator to judge each case.
'If I think it is important that a woman has a choice over how her body is used'
Me too; then again I'm not as naive as to suggest that there are women out there who don't know where babies come from. Someone who injects heroine does not have the right to complain when they overdose; no one has the right to feel irate when their alcoholic drinks make them drunk or when LSD makes them hallucinate. I think you'll find I'm very pro-choice, just that this choice ends once a life has been created.
' I usually find they're religious arguments...'
Funny how we must always argue on the atheists terms, but far less when I do and am still portrayed as a simple faith-head.
'So what's the point continuing if I don't have religious beliefs.'
Because there are bigger things at stake here. I've already shown how religious morality can apply to the irreligious, and God knows they're desperate to show you can be moral without God. Once we say that innocent life is worth taking in some circumstances, it is no great leap to suggest that taking it in others might also be justified. We know abortionists and euthanasiacs tell us that the two concepts are completely different, but they're not. Both are about the justification for taking the life of the inconvenient. Try to dress it up as more, but this is the truth. You may not be young, but I am; euthanasia will most likely be legal within my lifetime. Frankly I don't want to have to worry about being pressured to kill myself in my vulnerable years.
'...at least until the foetus has (say) reached a certain brain development stage'
So humanity is incepted upon neural plate formation(15 days)? or once the spinal chord fuses (24 days)? or is it later, I'm sure you are able to divine the life giving property of the central nervous system. How about the mentally disabled? How would they be treated in this system; what mental age is acceptable before we consider them alive? Do we truly define ourselves as humans only by the excitable grey matter in our heads?
'how do we compare that with the loss of potential which we value if the foetus fails to become a person? If I value the potential over the woman's choice then how do I value the potential impact on her life? And so on.'
Fantastic logical deduction of the relative moralist. How do we measure the importance of life against the inconvenience of another's? Tricky I know, after all humanity is merely a commodity right? We're only worth our value as workers right?
'However, if the other person is religious then it is almost never rewarding because no matter what they are arguing, the overwhelming problem is that their moral reasoning is based on what they think god wants and I reject their concept of god. As such, their argument is unsound to me and the conclusions are unsupported.'
If the other person is an antitheist then it is also scarcely rewarding, because no matter how many times you tell them that morality is not based on arbitrary scripturally defined code, and that its basis is in human happiness and fulfilment, they will still mindlessly simplify and pursue the argument that it is based on what someone has randomly decided God wants.
Your point is actually a form of ad hominem argument. You reject Christian morality because it comes from God, not its actual content. I reject yours because it, when logically fulfilled, can (and does) unleash terrible evils on the world.
And before you use the argument about Christian people committing evil acts in history, I'll say this: 1. They do these despite the morality not because of it; 2. Therefore the problem is not in the moral coding but in the inherent fallen nature of man.
"Your point is actually a form of ad hominem argument. You reject Christian morality because it comes from God, not its actual content."
I also reject Muslim morality because it comes from Allah which is yet another god I don't accept exists. You can try to couch it in negative-sounding phrases like 'ad hominem' but it's all the same: if one doesn't accept the premise of an argument then the argument is unsound.
"Once we say that innocent life is worth taking in some circumstances, it is no great leap to suggest that taking it in others might also be justified."
There it is, you see. I notice that the word innocent was slipped in too.
Zygotes, embryos, foetuses, babies, adults ... there's life so they're the same for the purposes of ethics. But why? The cells in a zygote have human DNA and they have life but are they human life at this point for the purposes of ethics? That's not a given, it follows from our values and our reasoning. Do we mean exactly the same thing there and everywhere else when we talked about life.
You may notice that I ignore all the various references to Hitler and the Nazis. Godwin's Law, you see. If I don't accept someone else's concept of god then I don't agree that I or anyone else is on a slippery slope to becoming a Nazi. That's a god-awful argument, used openly or hinted at, and it doesn't wash I'm afraid.
"Once we say that innocent life is worth taking in some circumstances, it is no great leap to suggest that taking it in others might also be justified."
There's a pretty big leap there for me. I'm staunchly against capital punishment too. Perhaps this comes as a surprise if things are so binary to god people where atheists are concerned?
As I'm on a slippery slope to being evil, you might as well know that I would always terminate on request a foetus with anencephaly despite it having human DNA and a life.
I would do it to save the woman from the psychological trauma of giving birth to it. Yes that's a mere matter of inconvenience to her but she's inherently valuable in ethical terms to me and more so than the foetus there where the value is more to do with sustaining our ethical framework.
"We know abortionists and euthanasiacs tell us that the two concepts are completely different, but they're not."
Well, that depends on the arguments of course. I make an ethical distinction between being a subject of a life and being an object of a life. Does that need explaining?
If one experiences one's life then one has an ethical passport to things which one who just has life perhaps does not. This is why we sometimes turn off the life support machine of someone who no longer has a mind.
On a slightly different tack, philosophers have tried to come up with coherent and cohesive ethical frameworks a number of times. They tend to come in three types: deontological, consequentialist, and virtue ethical. Immanuel Kant is probably the most famous from the deontological camp.
I think they were all making an unstated assumption that there is a single coherent and consistent ethical framework to be found. I don't think there is. That there is actually at the core of any debate of morality in my opinion.
If one of those philosophers could define one then what would we do with it? Well, we would take it and see if it fits with our understanding of the world. That is, we could assess the truth of its premises and check if the conclusions match with our moral intuition in test cases.
In other words, these things aren't free-standing. They rely on human nature. I raise this in various ways a number of times without it being picked up. When people argue for (say) Christian morality, there are unstated assumptions made about what we are and what our purpose is (if any). Those things need checking out.
Danjo,
Any sort of Morality system is to put 'a brake'on the fallen nature.God gave his moral law to a people who were descending into moral chaos.
After all if we all had a 'natural goodness' we wouldn`t need a morality system would we?
We would all 'do the right thing' naturally. Wouldn`t we?
Well this is the way God Created us, perfect, until we became ( I know you don`t like the word fallen so I will use' corrupted' and sin took over.
So we need a 'moral system to keep this 'corrupted' nature in check.
Len, I realise you don't really get what I'm on about most of the time and I try to make allowances for that but it's hard.
I'm not saying we're perfect, only that we won't inevitably slide towards depravity without Christianity or some other god-based ideology.
We are moral beings, that's part of our human nature. Most people, except perhaps sociopaths, have moral sense and reason morally.
We are self-aware and gregarious, and we have langauge to share thoughts. As such, we know that other people are essentially just like us.
I know when certain things happen to me, I have an emotional and intellectual response. Therefore, it's no jump at all to realise that other people may respond in the same way.
This is the core of it. It's the basis of the golden rule and it needs no religion to support it. The ability and desire to create an ethical framework in society is surely part of our human nature.
If things go wrong then I think it's likely to be down to insufficient empathy and sympathy for our fellow society members.
You know, when petty criminals meet their victims and talk to them they tend to realise the error of their ways. We can socialise many problems away I suspect without polluting everything with religion.
"Well this is the way God Created us, perfect, until we became ( I know you don`t like the word fallen so I will use' corrupted' and sin took over."
Religious gobbledygook. No evidence for it at all.
Danjo,
Do you know that the word'gullible' isn`t in the dictionary?
:)
^ from a Christian Elijah-wannabee! :O
Nice article in the Indie today by A C Grayling about human nature:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/a-c-grayling-celebrity-really-rather-kind-just-like-the-rest-of-us-shock-2213017.html
Now there's someone who actually sees the world.
Danjo,
Do you know that Elijah mocked the Priests of Baal for their worthless philosophies and their empty words?
Bit like Grayling and Dawkins don`t you think(or perhaps not.)
The Apostle Paul talks about wise fools in Romans 1 . " For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools " 1;21 Some 'wise' fools say, "there is no God." [Psalm;53] They may be highly educated scientists or whatever. but God has put them in fool's category.
"Do you know that Elijah mocked the Priests of Baal for their worthless philosophies and their empty words? Bit like Grayling and Dawkins don`t you think(or perhaps not.)"
And this provides some sort of proof of, well, anything? Len, what is the point of quoting your book at me like some Jehovah Witness when it means nothing significant to me? Why do the religious do this? It's like reading out random words from the Oxford dictionary and looking triumphant? Bizarre.
Danjo,
the Bible is not 'my book' its God`s book.
And it contains Truth whether you can apprehend it or not.
"the Bible is not 'my book' its God`s book.
And it contains Truth whether you can apprehend it or not."
It's a book and one you have adopted. No doubt it contains some truth given its size. Most novels contain truth too. All that said, I prefer seeking the truth, rather than taking on board Truth.
The difference between truth and Truth, as you demonstrate by capitalising your one, is that truth is objective and demonstrable, in as much as anything can be, whereas Truth is an assertion and indoctrinated.
You can keep it, frankly. I have no use for an ideology like that, especially one that denies truth and promotes immoral consequences.
Danjo, My Truth is unchanging ,your 'truth' is not.
Jesus said the Truth (about Him)would set you free.
Conversely if you did not believe the Truth you will not be set free.(Apparent by your denial of the Truth)
God eventually gives upon those who constantly deny the Truth and leaves them to their own devices.
Three times Paul writes that “God gave them over” as a consequence to their unbelief. God gave them over to sexual impurity because they did not have a high opinion of God, did not praise God, did not honor God, did not glorify Him as God, and did not give Him thanks (see Romans 1.21-24). God gave them over to shameful lusts (see Romans 1.26) because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator (see Romans 1.25-26). God gave them over to a depraved mind to do what ought not to be done because they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God (see Romans 1.28). God giving them over is His judgment upon their unbelief and rebellion.
Danjo, In Romans and Ephesians, when mankind refuses to honor the Lord as God, and chooses to worship creation instead of the Creator, and no longer thinks it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, the consequence of that is that God gives us over to what we want to give ourselves over to: sensuality (Ephesians 4.19), sexual impurity (Romans 1.24), shameful lusts (Romans 1.26), and a depraved mind (Romans 1.28). What mankind discovers once they have been given over to their sinful desires is that their sinful desires now have power over them. Paul is going to use very vivid imagery in Romans 6 as he talks about that we were slaves to sin (see Romans 6.19-23).
This applies also to those who worship the 'intellect and 'reason'(professing to be wise they became fools)
Danjo,
The Bible says that those who practice sin become slaves to sin, ie sin becomes their master and try as hard as they can they cannot escape.
I suspect this is the position of many God deniers.So they 'settle back' in their sin and try to justify it and normalise it instead of seeing it for what it is.
Denying the Truth of the Bible( God`s word) is part of the process!.
Len, you're doing that quotey thing again with your book. There's no point to it. Also, you're projecting your notion of sin again onto people who don't give a stuff about the concept, just with right and wrong in the real world. Again, there's no point to it.
You know, I live about equal distance between a Mormon church and a Kingdom Hall and so I get proselytisers calling depressingly often, the poor saps. They both have their Truth and the Truth is different in each case. Of course, it's different to your Truth too. And that of Muslims. What a surprise.
That's the trouble with tRuTh, one TrUtH is as good or bad as another when you all claim you have special access to the TRuTH. From the outside this sort of trUth is just religious assertion. This is unlike the actual physical truth, which one can demonstrate repeatedly, or the logical truth which one uses in real world arguments to reach usable real world conclusions.
Danjo, Well your`e still in denial then?
There are not many versions of the TRUTH ,there is only one TRUTH.
TRUTH is not an abstract idea, not an opinion, not a scientific formula, not an idea gained from a book,not even what the Great High Prophet of Atheism (Dawkin`s himself )preaches to the brainwashed!
TRUTH is not a Philosophy, not a Religion, not a Denomination, So what is TRUTH?..................................................................................
TRUTH IS A PERSON!
The Lord Jesus Christ.
So as you see there is only ONE TRUTH.
Danjo,
You will only know the TRUTH when the TRUTH reveals Himself to you!.
"brainwashed"
Len, you're almost certainly Christian because of where you were born and to whom you were born.
Most Muslims are Muslim because they have Muslim parents. Most Hindus are Hindus because they have Hindu parents. Most Sikhs are Sikhs because they have Sikh parents.
If you were born in Saudi Arabia then you would almost certainly be a Wahhabi Muslim. If you were born in Morocco then you would probably be a Sunni Muslim. If you were born in Iran then you would probably be a Shia Muslim.
If you were born in China then you may have been a Christian, or a Buddhist, or a Taoist, or tend towards a Confucian outlook on life.
Strange that, huh? But we agnostics and atheists are brainwashed and you're not. Uh-huh.
"Denying the Truth of the Bible( God`s word) is part of the process!."
That's one reason why your religion is such a successful meme. It's like a conspiracy theory. If one questions the validity of it then the adherents tap their noses and say: ah, that's because you're not in the know! Conspiracy theories rely on insider-outsider thinking, some sort of gnosis or enlightenment, and a rationale for why the obvious isn't actually true. They're self-contained, you see. But stand on the outside and, well, it really doesn't make much sense in the real world.
Some time ago, I had a long exchange with someone on the Times comment pages about revelation. He was a Catholic, having been to seminary college. He said only a small number of people who claimed to be Christian and had sincere belief actually were.
His argument was based on special revelation through a process. The large number who weren't had still bought into the philosophy and convinced themselves that they had a personal relationship with Jesus. The small number were all Catholics, by definition, he said.
I found it all very interesting, as you can imagine. I wanted to know what the revelation and the relationship was like. He had conversations, you see. I wanted to know what information was tranferred and why there were so many other people who fervently believed they were right too.
Unfortunately, he wouldn't tell me the crux of it. Apparently, he had a non-discloure agreement, implied by Matthew 7:6. This intrigued me because I would have thought it was all out in the open now, but hey.
But anyway, it led me to thinking whether anyone would ever arrive at both the core theme and the detail of Christianity if they were not told, meme-like. I mean, one would have thought revelation would produce the goods somehow. Not in an Abraham type way of being roughly mono-theistic, I mean, but in the full revelation of Jesus as a spiritual saviour and man-facet of god.
What do you think, Len?
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