Monday, March 21, 2011

On this day, 455 years ago, Archbishop Cranmer was martyred

In commemoration of the martyrdom of Thomas Cranmer, the current incumbent of the See of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, preached a sermon five years ago at the church of St Mary the Virgin, Oxford. He noted:
Cranmer lived in the middle of controversies where striking for a kill was the aim of most debaters. Now of course we must beware of misunderstanding or modernising. He was not by any stretch of the imagination a man who had no care for the truth, a man who thought that any and every expression of Christian doctrine was equally valid; he could be fierce and lucidly uncompromising when up against an opponent like Bishop Gardiner. Yet even as a controversialist he shows signs of this penitent scrupulosity in language: yes, this is the truth, this is what obedience to the Word demands - but , when we have clarified what we must on no account say, we still have to come with patience and painstaking slowness to crafting what we do say. Our task is not to lay down some overwhelmingly simple formula but to suggest and guide, to build up the structure that will lead us from this angle and that towards the one luminous reality. 'Full, perfect and sufficient' - each word to the superficial ear capable of being replaced by either of the others, yet each with its own resonance, its own direction into the mystery, and, as we gradually realise, not one of them in fact dispensable.

...And in his last days, this was Cranmer's curse. If there was no easy certainty enough to kill for, was there certainty enough to die for? That habit of mind which had always circled and hovered, tested words and set them to work against each other in fruitful tension, sought to embody in words the reality of penitence and self-scrutiny, condemned him, especially in the midst of isolation, confusion, threats and seductions of spirit, to a long agony, whose end came only in this church minutes before his last hurrying, stumbling walk through the rain to the stake. It is extraordinary to think of him drafting two contradictory versions of his final public confession, still not knowing what words should sum up his struggles. But at the last, it is as if he emerges from the cloud of words heaped up in balance and argument and counterpoint, knowing almost nothing except that he cannot bring himself to lie, in the face of death and judgement. What he has to say is that he has 'written many things untrue' and that he cannot face God without admitting this. He cannot find a formula that will conceal his heart from God, and he knows that his heart is, as it has long been, given to the God whom the Reformation had let him see, the God of free grace, never bound by the works or words of men and women. Just because he faces a God who can never be captured in one set of words, a God who is transcendently holy in a way that exacts from human language the most scrupulous scepticism and the most painstaking elaboration possible, he cannot pretend that words alone will save him. 'If we deny him, he also will deny us'. He must repent and show his repentance with life as well as lips; 'forasmuch as my hand offended in writing contrary to my heart, therefore my hand shall first be punished'.

...So Cranmer draws the terrible and proper conclusion from a lifetime of skill and balance, of 'rightly dividing the word of truth': what appears bit by bit in our words about God as they are prompted and fired by the Word Incarnate is the realisation of the God who is always in excess of what can be said...

...It led Cranmer - as it led so many others in that nightmare age, as it led the martyrs of our own age - Bonhoeffer, Maria Skobtsova, Janani Luwum - to something more than a contemplative silence: to a real death. When we say that the word of God is not bound, we say that death itself can be the living speech of God, as the Word was uttered once and for all in the silence at the end of Good Friday. Cranmer speaks, not only in the controlled passion of those tight balances and repetitions in his Prayer Book, but in that chilling final quarter of an hour. He ran through the downpour to the town ditch and held out his right hand, his writing hand, for a final composition, a final liturgy. And, because the word of God is not bound, it is as if that hand in the flames becomes an icon of the right hand of Majesty stretched out to us for defence and mercy.

Today is not a Feast or Principal Holy Day in the Church of England; just a 'lesser festival' of remembrance: 'Thomas Cranmer, Archbishop of Canterbury, Reformation Martyr, 1556.' From His Grace's Book of Common Prayer, the gospel reading for today:
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged;
condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned;
forgive, and ye shall be forgiven;
give, and it shall be given unto you;
good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over,
shall men give into your bosom.
For with the same measure that ye met withal,
it shall be measured to you again (Lk 6:36-38)


Anonymous FTP Topcliff said...

It's about time that the CofE started canonising its own saints. Why not? Giving them no competition gives the pederasts' often laughable saints legitimacy by default.

21 March 2011 at 09:46  
Anonymous Voyager said...

An important day. I trust there will be a commemoration outside Balliol and St John's College by Martyrs' Memorial today and that those leaving The Randolph and Ashmolean will pay their respects.

God Bless Thomas Cranmer.

21 March 2011 at 09:48  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All three, Cranmer,Ridley, Latimer were very great men in every sense, and particularly in their confession of Christ in the midst of evil and gainsaying men.
Great wil be their reward on the coming great Resurrection Day.

How by contrast the present tragedy of the C of E that it is engaged in exercises of uttermost triviality and banality - the "gay agenda", climate change, endless gender arguments, & conformity to this world's value systems. Need we go on?

All of these instead of a full engagement with her sole raison d'etre - the study and proclamation of a vision of God and the Gospel of Christ for our time.
Is there a single cleric today who could utter the timeless inspiring words of a Cranmer?

21 March 2011 at 10:16  
Anonymous graham wood said...

Last message sent in error - should have been signed :
Graham Wood

21 March 2011 at 10:17  
Anonymous Preacher said...

Thank you Dr Cranmer, and Latimer and Ridley plus all the brethren then and now who count and counted the gospel of Jesus Christ, and its proclamation to lost and sinful humanity of more value than their lives.
May you all serve as an example to todays believers and inspire them to take up their crosses daily, with joy and perseverance to follow our Lord to a joyful eternity with Him.

21 March 2011 at 10:34  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

Whilst I abhor the extreme Protestantism that His Grace tended toward, I have nothing but admiration for the Collects and the beauty of the theology he followed.

Whether 'canonised' or not, Cranmer is a Saint in every sense.

21 March 2011 at 10:55  
Blogger Ernst Stavro Blofeld and Tiddles said...

FTP Topcliff said 21 March 2011 09:46

My dear boy, the Good Book declares we are all kings, priests and saints who are His. Each fights the good fight and runs the race but the vast majority live hidden lives of service from the glaring view of the media or neighbours. Bless them all.

The Almighty sees and honours those who continue in His Word and follow His Son.

Anonymous said 21 March 2011 10:16

'All three, Cranmer,Ridley, Latimer were very great men in every sense, and particularly in their confession of Christ in the midst of evil and gainsaying men.
Great wil be their reward on the coming great Resurrection Day.'

Even though that lit candle set alight by the 3 mentioned is flickering against the blasty winds of secularism/atheism, it remains and gives hope to those in these dark times.

Happy Anniversary, Your Grace and may you continue in rude, good health in your resurrection on this blog. Britain Expects...

E S Blofeld

21 March 2011 at 11:24  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Now that's a good video!

In gratitude to Your Grace, for then and now. Happy Anniversary.

21 March 2011 at 13:05  
Anonymous Hospitable Scots Bachelor said...

On this anniversary, just like to say "thanks for standing up and being counted" and I hope, on a personal front, happier days are ahead for you.

21 March 2011 at 13:51  
Blogger Kip Hop... It don't stop said...

Gee whiz! I posted the same two videos today on my blog. Oh to have a similar thoughts as so great your eminence. God Bless His Grace.

Revd Kip' Chelashaw (curate)

21 March 2011 at 13:51  
Blogger Timothy Belmont said...

A timely reminder, Your Grace.

21 March 2011 at 14:19  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Your Grace’s carbonized remains will weep for the Libyans who are being burned alive.

21 March 2011 at 14:21  
Anonymous Pageantmaster said...

We remember with thanks His Grace on this his anniversary.

21 March 2011 at 14:25  
Anonymous Paul said...

Well done Your Grace. Cranmer deserves to be remembered by all of us .

21 March 2011 at 14:44  
Anonymous srizals said...

Well, it was clearly not done by Muslims or any foreigners, so I guess it was not considered as barbaric. There were no barbarians back then of course.

They did it in a polite and classy manner. Only more inhumanely. How lovely the West was then, Non Mouse. I'm sure some of us miss our heritage so much.

I guess they hadn't heard about Sharia law back then. If only they knew.

Hell on earth, Johnny.
Hell on earth.

21 March 2011 at 15:20  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cobbett's account of Cranmer was rather closer to it.

21 March 2011 at 16:53  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Man that is born of woman hath but a short time to live, and is full of misery.

He cometh up, and is cut down, like a flower; he fleeth as it were a shadow, and never continueth in one stay.

In the midst of life we are in death: of whom may we seek for succour, but of thee, O Lord, who for our sins art justly displeased?

Yet, O Lord God most holy, O Lord most mighty, O holy and most merciful Saviour, deliver us not into the bitter pains of eternal death.

Thou knowest, Lord, the secrets of our hearts; shut not thy merciful ears to our prayer; but spare us, Lord most holy, O God most mighty, O holy and merciful Saviour, thou most worthy Judge eternal, suffer us not, at our last hour, for any pains of death, to fall from thee.

21 March 2011 at 17:43  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Srizals : your ''sharia law'' is as dust ...

21 March 2011 at 18:09  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Having watched the "tudors" and its rather good screenplay (although I cannot comment on accuracy),I am a little puzzled at Gardiners actions who at the moment in the series is finding nests of protestantism and yet Henry VIII is still excommunicated from the church of rome.latimer is about to become the queens chaplin. Cranmer appeared earlier in the series as arriving from Holland (with a wife in secret)but has not been seen since . I can only assume protestant reformer meant somthing else and the Gardiner position was unclear.

One snippet I did come across about your graces ashes, was that he grew a beard as sign of breaking away from the old church , but as you say extraordinary times and accusation of heresy and sentence in the ideas whirling around europe at the time , he even had some early philosphy leanings.

That said what he left us, is so delicately beautiful, that any corruptable hand could not hold it .Thankyou your grace.

21 March 2011 at 18:26  
Anonymous Peter the Lobsterman said...

This secular humanist wishes your Grace as happy an anniversary as is possible given the painful memories it must evoke.

This country is better for the reformation having happened, and the blogosphere is the richer for your Grace's writings.

21 March 2011 at 20:00  
Blogger TLF+ said...

Thank you, Your Grace. I've watched that first video several times now, giving thanks for Cranmer's words that I've spoken in the sacred moments of my life.

Timothy Fountain
Sioux Falls, South Dakota, USA

21 March 2011 at 20:35  
Anonymous IanCad said...

There are those many and intrepid martyrs who distained the rigours of an agonizing immolation. Never wavering, steadfast, so resolute that today we look on them almost as a different species.
Then there is Cranmer, and also Jerome. To such it is much easier to relate. Tempted by expediency. Terrified of the torment to come, they falter and recant. That is the course which is reasonable, pragmatic and that, today, would seem most sensible. And so it was then. The Christ who can strengthen us strengthened them. Their recantations were disavowed and the fury of their tormentors was multipled.
Lest we forget.

21 March 2011 at 21:46  
Blogger Span Ows said...

No one living, nor anyone reading history books and ancient documents can possibly know anything "real" about Cranmer...however, i think we can safely assume he was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like Rowan Williams....except maybe the facial growth.

21 March 2011 at 21:53  
Blogger Span Ows said...

Graham Wood, amen to that.

21 March 2011 at 22:03  
Blogger Span Ows said...

The Pope...his false doctrine, and Christ's enemy: we know that...and Islam 10 times worse.

Cometh the hour...

21 March 2011 at 22:18  
Anonymous srizals said...

Oswin, Cranmer's body has turned to dust, the legal body of a government governed by white Caucasian Christians made sure of it. He died burning on the stake, remember? In front of a highly civilized society of the so proud West once was. It was written down in history. He wasn’t killed because he had killed anyone, nor did he betray his countrymen in a time of peril. It is solely religion motivated.

21 March 2011 at 22:32  
Anonymous srizals said...,_drawn_and_quartered

Span Ows, if you had been hanged, drawn and quartered, you know that the "10 times worse" phrase was unfit for Islam.

"Conversely, some, such as the deeply unpopular William Hacket (d. 1590), were cut down instantly and taken to be disembowelled and normally emasculated—the latter, according to Sir Edward Coke, to "show his issue was disinherited with corruption of blood."[nb 5][42]

Those still conscious at that point might have seen their entrails burnt, before their heart was removed, and the body decapitated and quartered (chopped into four pieces). The regicide Major-General Thomas Harrison, after being hanged for several minutes and then cut open in October 1660, was reported to have leaned across and hit his executioner—resulting in the swift removal of his head. His entrails were thrown onto a nearby fire."

Makes you feel that the warriors of Banu Qurayzah had been treated with much respect and mercy. A swift and painless death. Don't you think so Johnny?

Cranmer was lucky. He was not minced alive. He was barbecued alive. Was this tendency of treating humans like food related to the ancient Britons' DNA or genes that recent discovery revealed, were man-eating cannibals, years ago.

Ernst? Ancient Briton, you should have known. Care to share. How chilling it was then in the West. Creepy, Oswin, if you ask me.

21 March 2011 at 22:56  
Anonymous RJ said...

I don't usually comment, but for bringing that thoughtful sermon to our attention I think thanks are called for.

21 March 2011 at 22:58  
Blogger Span Ows said...

LOL! Srizals...1510, 1660...etc. PAH!

I'm writing about now. The Pope is the same, Islam is the same.

bring it on...

21 March 2011 at 23:06  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ srizals (22:56)—A swift and painless death. Don’t you think so Johnny?

According to the sirah, Mohammed beheaded ‘600 or 700 in all, though some put the figure as high as 800 or 900’ and the slaughter of the Banu Qurayzah ‘went on until the Apostle made an end of them.’ While the early deaths may have been swift and relatively painless, the later beheadings—administered by a knackered Apostle—would have been excruciating.

21 March 2011 at 23:21  
Anonymous srizals said...

Yes, yes, I know. We don't do that no more stuff. But are you really sure that you're not doing it no more?

Maybe you'll say, they were Americans. But you see, they were not Red Indians. The blood of the beast still runs deep in the veins of some of us. And it's not in Muslims. Some became Lambert upon seeing the evil wolf trying to eat up their beloved motherlands. Do you know Lambert, the sheepish lion, Mr. keyboard?

21 March 2011 at 23:22  
Anonymous srizals said...

Oh, I can't help it but share,

21 March 2011 at 23:48  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Seems to me AB Cranmer was a flawed and complex man and in that respect he differed little from the mass of people.

As a Priest he secretly married, breaking his oath to God, and then willingly accepted the position of Archbishop of Canterbury thereby compounding his betrayal. As a servant of the Crown, he actively conspired against Queen Mary, the legitimate Monarch, and committed treason. He was convicted of this crime and suffered the penalty.

Today the absolute insanity of those times are behind us - thank God. We are able to exercise freedom of conscience and having a faith other than the established religion is not a crime.

Judged by the standards of his time, however, Archbishop Cranmer is no role model of integrity and pecability. Eloquent, yes. Honourable? Consistant? Didn't he place his own interests above those of his God and his earthly Monarch?

Thankfully, Our Lord receives us in our imperfections and weaknesses and will look with compassion on this man's weaknesses in troubled times. But let's not overlook these and 'airbrush' history.

Sorry to spoil the party.

22 March 2011 at 02:43  
Anonymous non mouse said...

O Most mighty God and merciful Father, who hast compassion upon all men, and hatest nothing that thou hast made; who wouldest not the death of a sinner, but that he should rather turn from his sin, and be saved; Mercifully forgive us our treapasses; receive and comfort us, who are grieved and wearied with the burden of our sins. Thy property is always to have mercy; to thee only it appertaineth to forgive sins. spare us therefore, good Lord, spare they people, whom thou hast redeemed; enter not into judgement with thy servants, who are vile earth, and miserable sinners; but so turn thine anger from us, who meekly ackhnowledge our vileness, and truly repent us of our faults, and so make haste to help us in this world, that we may ever live with thee in the world to come; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen

22 March 2011 at 04:40  
Anonymous non mouse said...

corrigendum: "spare thy people".

22 March 2011 at 04:43  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh dear: "acknowledge" also.

22 March 2011 at 04:45  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And 'treapasses'

22 March 2011 at 05:36  
Anonymous srizals said...

Thanks The Last Dodo, you have enriched my knowledge. How sad that your kind is extinct now and not that abundant anymore in the West. And it was not the fault of you know who. It was the hungry sailors of the wild, wild West.

See, animals and people went extinct when they encountered "Islam and Muslims". I rest my case.

22 March 2011 at 06:05  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your Grace, you can hardly call yourself a martyr. A martyr to what? Fuzzy headedness? You burnt Catholic and Protestant at the same time at the same stake. One minute you where burning people for not believing in Transubstantiation, the next minute for believing in Transubstantiation.

You broke all your Sacred Oaths when you were made Archbishop. You were behind the execution of Anne Boleyn accusing her of being a witch. Your brutality and cruelty in the West Country is legendary during the Prayer Book Rebellion.

You made Elizabeth a bastard. You were behind the poisoning of Katherine of Aragon. You were behind the poisoning of Edward VI that great Protestant child king. And you kept your wife in a box!

22 March 2011 at 10:55  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

Forgive and ye shall be forgiven.

One of the iron laws of Judaeo-Christianity.

How hard our faith is, and yet they say it is a crutch.

22 March 2011 at 11:05  
Anonymous len said...

"The word of God is above the church" , was the principle that Cranmer expounded and it framed the whole of the Reformation in just eight words.

Cranmer came to realise that there can be no compromise between Truth and error and repented at the end,
Cranmer`s last words;

"And now I come to the great thing, which so much troubleth my conscience, more than any thing that ever I did or said in my whole life, and that is the setting abroad of a writing contrary to the truth; which now here I renounce and refuse, as things written with my hand, contrary to the truth which I thought in my heart, and written for fear of death, and to save my life if it might be; and thatis., all such bill, and papers which I have written or signed with my hand since my degradation; wherein I have written many things untrue. And forasmuch as my hand offended writing contrary to my heart, my hand shall fast be punished there-for; for, may I come to the fire, it shall be first burned.

And as for the pope, I refuse him, as Christ’s enemy, and antichrist, with all his, false doctrine,

“And as for the sacrament, I believe as I have taught in my book against the bishop of Winchester, the which my book teacheth so true a doctrine of the sacrament, that it shall stand at the last day before the judgment of God, where the papistical doctrine contrary thereto shall be ashamed to show her face.”
God Bless Thomas Cranmer a Martyr of the Reformation.May we all show such courage and conviction.

22 March 2011 at 17:47  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Srizals @ 22:32 :

Yes indeedy, Cranmer's body is dust; but his spirit lives on. Whereas, I as I stated before, 'sharia' is dust now, and has no spirit to linger further. It is dodo-esque: ''a dead parot, deceased, expired and gone to meet it's maker (?) it's pushing-up daisies, shuttled-off its mortal coil, stiff, bereft of life, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!''

(or something very like that...)

22 March 2011 at 18:09  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Anonymous : 10:55 :

Yours is an interesting, if somewhat fanciful view of history. Are you, perchance, related to 'Atlas shrugged'?

22 March 2011 at 18:26  
Anonymous srizals said...

Wrong again Oswin, Sharia lives on, it is the law that binds the Muslims worldwide, in marriages, commerce, food consumption, wealth management and all aspect a Muslim lives and dies on. It is a way of life and death. Where does halal food come from Oswin?

23 March 2011 at 07:28  
Anonymous len said...

In the end all things shall be gathered into Christ Jesus and all that remains outside Him shall be consumed by fire.

'God is going to invade this earth in force. But what's the good of saying you're on his side then, when you see the whole natural universe melting away like a dream and something else, something it never entered your head to conceive comes crashing in. Something so beautiful to us and so terrible to others that none of us will have any choice left. This time it will be God without disguise; something so overwhelming that it will strike either irresistible love, or irresistible horror into every creature. It will be too late then to choose your side. There is no use saying you choose to lie down, when it's become impossible to stand up. That will not be the time for choosing; it will be the time when we discover which side we really have chosen, whether we realize it or not. Now, today, in this moment, is our chance to choose the right side. God is holding back to give us that chance. It will not last forever; we must take it or leave it. (C. S. Lewis)

23 March 2011 at 07:41  
Anonymous srizals said...

"This time it will be God without disguise"

Len,why would G-d disguised himself?

And why did he has to invade this earth in force? Is he without soldiers? Is not this earth and all in the heavens subjugated under Him? Isn't He the sole Creator?

My dear Len, all pure is He from the needs and the weakness of His creations, especially the human race.

23 March 2011 at 11:52  
Anonymous Oswin said...


You may have misunderstood. My point being, your 'sharia' is reaching the end of (its) days. It is written ... it is a dead parrot.

23 March 2011 at 17:48  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Srizals :

I had not read Len's comment before my last reply, I defer to him entirely. C.C.Lewis knew a dead parrot when he saw one.

23 March 2011 at 17:54  
Anonymous len said...


Because Jesus took on human form in the incarnation, we can see God in the fullest sense possible in this world. In Jesus Christ, the God-man, we behold the "glory as of the only begotten" (John 1: 14). Yet other passages say, no man can see Me (God) and live, "no man has seen God at any time,' ' ''whom no man has seen or can see' ' (referring to God) (Exodus 33:20; John 1: 18; 1 Timothy 6:16; l John 4:12, etc.

So the picture Scripture gives is that human beings cannot see the total glory and power of God and live.
God revealed Himself to Humanity in Jesus Christ. Jesus and God are one.

I and my Father are one. John 10:30

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...All things were made by him...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14

Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE. (1 John 5:7)

23 March 2011 at 18:39  
Anonymous len said...

When Jesus returns to Earth it will be as Judge.
All the Earth is not subjugated to Christ,in fact the greater part opposes Him.
God`s Laws are being trampled underfoot in Many Nations.
The Nations are ripe for Judgement, how much longer God will tolerate us is hard to imagine.It is only God`s love for Humanity and the desire that all that would be saved ,are saved,is withholding His hand.

Jonathan Edwards in his great sermon said: “The wrath of God is like great waters that are damned for the present; they increase more and more, and rise higher and higher, till an outlet is given; and the higher the stream stopped, the more rapid and mighty is its course when it is let loose. If God should only withdraw His hand from the flood-gate, it would immediately fly open, and the fiery floods of the fierceness and wrath of God would rush forth with inconceivable fury, and would come upon you with omnipotent power.”

23 March 2011 at 18:54  
Anonymous Jack Flash said...

Islam never had the truth to begin with. It still hasn't! A represive regime that does not allow its followers the right to choose what or who they wish to believe, on pain of death. How you have the audacity to criticise our evil deeds of 400 years ago, when your followers are still enacting them beggars belief.
Islam is stuck in a time warp, wake up and join 2011!.

24 March 2011 at 11:40  
Anonymous srizals said...

At last, a common view to be shared, "our evil deeds of 400 years ago".

Jack Flash, I don't have any followers, I'm just an average Joe, like you.

If waking up meant that we have to embrace same sex marriages, treating women and children like sex trash while profiting on them, killing babies in wars and abortions while making a 'decent' livelihood, oppressions and manipulations in economy and others' livelihood by the greedy rich, I have to say, no thank you, Jack Flash. You may proceed to utter ruins by yourself.

24 March 2011 at 17:06  
Blogger srizals said...

Len, I would choose Allah, the true only God, the One, the Complete, the Permanent. The sole Creator of all that exists, that has a beginning, that begins with God and end with God. To Him alone, I gave myself up.

He has promised me His love, mercy and forgiveness no matter how fragile my faith and resolution are. He has promised me that His blessings and forgiveness are always with those who believed in Him and always amending his/her error until his/her last breath. I believe in His mercy and gentleness to the good, as His wrath and justice to the un-repenting evil and the wicked, no matter how glorious and dominant they may be now in this temporal existence.

My choice is clear.

My faith does not require any sacrifice of the innocents. Yours require the sacrifice of the Palestinians, both Muslims and Christians. Isn't it obvious?

24 March 2011 at 17:21  
Blogger srizals said...

Jack Flash, do you know about this one?

"After a close study of the Trinity, he published a pamphlet in 1644 entitled “Twelve Arguments Refuting the Deity of the Holy Spirit”, addressed to “the Christian reader”.

In 1645, the manuscript of the “Twelve Arguments” was seized and Biddle was imprisoned. He was called to appear before Parliament, but he still refused to accept the Deity of the Holy Spirit. The pamphlet was reprinted in 1647. On the 6th of September of the same year, Parliament ordered the pamphlet to be burned.

On the 2nd of May, 1648, a “Severe Ordinance” was passed, which stated that those who denied the Trinity or the divinity of Jesus or the Holy Spirit, would suffer death without the benefit of clergy."

24 March 2011 at 17:35  
Anonymous Jack Flash said...

O.K Srizals.
cut the rubbish & answer my question. In 2011, if you decided by divine revelation that you wanted to change from Islam to say Buddhism, could you, without danger of being killed as an apostate? answer only yes or no!.
My answer cards up on the table is yes! I could. the world awaits your One Word Response.

Love Jack Flash.

24 March 2011 at 18:43  
Anonymous len said...

When your illusions are shattered you will be left with......... nothing.

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:

At least you cannot claim ignorance when you meet your Creator, the Truth,Jesus Christ was presented to you.

24 March 2011 at 22:20  
Anonymous srizals said...

A big no, Jack Flash, if I do not ask anyone to kill other steadfast Muslims, boycott them in some pogrom like solution and especially I do not repeatedly asking the nuclear powers to nuke Mecca and other Muslim cities if one deranged Muslim decide to bomb your buses, buildings and toilets.

We do not hold you accountable for the act of your criminals, why should we be accountable?

A big yes, if I did all these things after deciding that other religion is closer to the truth after reading their religion writings and whether they abide by their religious laws. Why should I believe in their religion when they themselves do not?

24 March 2011 at 23:19  
Anonymous Jack Flash said...

I asked for a Yes or a No sir, not more propaganda or rhetoric.
Please answer as I have- Yes or No.
Your answer to the question. If you were convinced that another faith was the truth, would you be ALLOWED to change to it without fear of being killed as an apostate?. I answered Yes. Your answer please.


25 March 2011 at 11:17  
Anonymous srizals said...


And why not?
1. The Prophet s.a.w. did not kill any apostate, so why should Muslims? Muslims have to base their actions by the examples of their Prophet. Not on mere humans.

2. Based on the Salafi Imams (Syaikhul Islam IT, asSyarim alMaslul, Tahqeeq Muhyiddin Abd Hamid, pg 368)

In their opinion, death is only for apostate that conspire with the enemy against Muslims or had put them in grave danger or threatening them militarily.

3. Based on the view of Ibn Taymiyah, as it was done by Umar r.a., one of the 4 righteous leaders of Muslims, one of the closest companion of the Prophet, and also his father in law, the Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) of Umar al Khattab r.a., in dealing with apostasy during his rule (refer Abd Razzaq, alMusyanif: 10/168 Atsar no 18707)

4. Based on the Koran, Allah had said,

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower. (256) (al-Baqarah)

Number 4 is by Allah s.w.t. Himself. Nothing and no one is above His decree. Clear and concise. Any interpretation by humans, no matter how knowledgeable they maybe, cannot be above than what is intended by the Creator. As simple as that. No one can offer me hell and heaven except God. I don't worship any human.

Because I'm a human too. Therefore, I do not worship myself, things and animals. When I'm in danger, only God came to my mind.

5. The Prophet had advised me that I should hold fast to only two things he had left me with, his sunnah (ways) and the Koran.

"I am leaving among you something which is very important and should be followed, you will not go astray if you get hold of it after I am gone, one part of it being more important than the other: Allah's Book, which is a rope stretched from Heaven to Earth, and my close relatives, who belong to my household. These two will not separate from one another till they come down to the reservoir, so consider how you act regarding them after my departure." (Tirmidhi, Sahih Muslim)

25 March 2011 at 13:54  
Anonymous len said...

"Muslims have to base their actions on the example of their prophet"

Well that explains everything!

25 March 2011 at 17:49  
Anonymous Jack Flash said...

Thank you for your honest answer Mr Srizals. My question was, if you remember. If for any reason YOU wished to leave the Islamic faith, (irrespective of your currently held beliefs), the desire being your own. Would you be ALLOWED the freedom of choice, without being in danger of losing your life.
My answer was YES, Yours is NO.
Thank you for being honest Sir.
I think that ends our debate.


26 March 2011 at 12:59  
Blogger srizals said...

Thank you Jack. We can only see what we wanted to see. See you later Jack.

29 March 2011 at 12:20  

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