Friday, April 15, 2011

At last - the true horror of the persecution of Serbs by Croats emerges


His Grace has occasionally turned to this matter, but it is generally not an angle which interests the 'mainstream media'. Today, however, The Guardian reports that two Croatian generals - Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markač - have been found guilty of war crimes against the Serbs, and have received lengthy jail terms.

This was, of course, a Roman Catholic Croat majority against an Orthodox Serb minority, but it is rarely reported in those terms. Today, The Guardian boldly refers to a 'recalcitrant and powerful Catholic church'. Usually, only when the report is of the persecution of Bosnian Muslims does a hint of religion enter the equation. We are told:
Judges in The Hague found Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markač guilty on eight of nine counts for commanding operations that included the shelling of civilians, the torching of Serbian homes in south-west Croatia, the murder of hundreds of elderly Serbs and the forced exodus of at least 20,000 from the Serbian minority rooted in the Dalmatian hinterland for centuries.
Gotovina was given a 24-year jail sentence; Markač was jailed for 18 years.

This represents a political disaster and profound diplomatic embarassment for Croatia: but it is a triumphant vindication for Serbia. Effectively, the Croats have been told that the decisive victory of the war, which sealed their independent statehood, was a war crime. The judges found:
"Croatian forces committed acts of murder, cruel treatment, inhumane acts, destruction, plunder, persecution and deportation. There was a widespread and systematic attack directed against this Serb civilian population, (creating) an environment in which those present there had no choice but to leave."
His Grace has been sent a letter relating to this, which he is pleased to publish:
Sir

A UN court in the Hague has convicted a key wartime Croatian commander, General Ante Gotovina and another General Mladen Markac of committing atrocities in a campaign of shelling, murder and persecution which drove Serbs out of Croatia's Krajina border region in 1995. Having spoken at a Downing Street demonstration at the time, trying to get the British media to acknowledge those crimes, I am personally pleased.

At last the true horror of the persecutions of Serbs by Croats is acknowledged officially in western media who, throughout the Yugoslav war (begun by Croatia in 1991 when they declared illegal independence and started persecuting Serbs in Croatia) blamed only the Serbs.

The Yugoslav war crimes tribunal has also delivered a damning verdict on Croatia's then-president, Franjo Tudjman who declared that independence and whose 1969 book described genocide "as a natural phenomenon commanded by the Almighty in defence of the only true faith (Roman Catholicism)" - Serbs are of course Orthodox Christians. I note that even today the Croatian Roman Catholic Church has defended these convicted Generals.

Tudjman was said by the Court to have led a "joint criminal enterprise" to repopulate the Krajina region with Croats after driving out Serbs. It was Tudjman who had the full support of Germany and Croatia has been invited to join the European Union!

Yours etc

Rodney Atkinson

120 Comments:

Blogger Bred in the bone said...

The Wholly Roaming Impire eh.

The Impudence of the wee Imps knows no bounds, good post YG.

Modern Man hath forget the powers and principalitiies at play

Deuteronomy 18.11-Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

15 April 2011 at 18:17  
Anonymous MrJ said...

The manner in which the Guardian slants its report noted.

Is any information yet available about the papal authorities in connection with: "even today the Croatian Roman Catholic Church has defended these convicted Generals." ?

15 April 2011 at 18:41  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Let's not make this a trial of Roman Catholicism!

These three Generals were charged with failing to prevent the murder of 324 civilians - not initiating genocide, whatever the quote from Tudjiman says. Hardly a view supported by the Magisterium as valid Catholic theology.

The whole Balkan war discredited both Orthodox and Catholics as they and Muslims made land grabs.

War released centuries of national and ethnic hatred in the vacuum left by the demise of the Ottoman and then the Russian Empire.

I expect lots of Roman Catholic bashing to follow but do please remember the Serbs were not innocent victims in all this!

15 April 2011 at 18:43  
Anonymous Voyager said...

Croatia

Operation Storm aided and equipped by US mercenaries MPRI was a criminal enterprise instigated by Clinton and his "Ambassador" Peter Galbraith son of J K Galbraith (his background is well worth a Google)

The aim was to humiliate a Russian ally, Serbia, in the region. The Croats were backed by the German CSU in Bavaria and that made the German Coalition prize Croatia from the Yugoslav Federation and the Croats re-created the Ustashe from 1941.

The whole sordid business in the Balkans is probably why they terminated Milosevic so he could not implicate Western politicians..........the partition of Yugoslavia was the template for Iraq and now Libya

15 April 2011 at 18:50  
Anonymous Dreadnaught said...

HG is on the money with this post - well said Your Grace.

All acts of war are so sanitised these days, I think many people have no idea of what it is really like. We never get to see the damage done to flesh and bone by remote controlled flying ordinance. Not only is war sanitised, the reasons for conflicts are are rarely given equal prominence in order to create a sanitised bias so that we support the good guys and punish the bad guys.

Crap!

We all saw the evidence of what the Serb army did to Bosnian Muslims and they were rightly condemned for it - but these things never happen as isolated incidents committed by only one side. Where are the trials of Isabegavic's militia leaders who committed atrocity after atrocity against dozens of Serb villagers. Its out there for all to see on the internet but nothing ever made the main stream news here. The evidence is there, but nothing will be done about it by the West because it does not suit the agenda of Islamic appeasement.

We never got to fully hear about the reasons why in the first instance the Serbs kicked off against the Muslims in Kosovo, or the ethnic cleansing of Serbs from territory they had held long before any encroachment from the Ottoman Empire or the Nazi supporting Croats and Bosnians.

Kosovo was being colonised by Albanians for hundreds of years until the Serbs became a minority in a region of their own country. What will the Americans do when they realise that the Mexicans are slowly regaining superior numbers in California - it was their land in the first place.

And on a minor note - what do we really get told of the implications for First Nation British residents in Lambeth and Tower Hamlets. Bugger all.

again I say - Crap!

15 April 2011 at 19:04  
Anonymous Oswin said...

I have to agree with much that Voyagers says; and although the Balkan peoples are a pretty barbaric bunch all told, I do have more than a degree of sympathy for the Serbs.

15 April 2011 at 19:08  
Blogger Ariadne said...

I am pleased that some of the injustices and atrocities suffered by the Serbs have been publicised.

It doesn't seem to be known very widely that Muslims in the Balkans employed a PR firm in USA to help them in their Islamic "struggle".

15 April 2011 at 19:24  
Anonymous not a machine said...

mmm tricky one isnt it , the causes of conflict or for that matter choosing to fight one .

I think underlying all this, one may find earlier soviet induced tensions. horrific moment in history , think what could have been done if they hadnt dithered in interveneing.

It should be noted that some of them were very well paid and made glamourous.

The EU did not see how these post soviet balkan states still had some liberated iron fist leftovers.

I am often mindfull of one of your graces fascinating insights that jesus did not raise arms .I rather wish he had told us somthing of what to do when our faith is being dissolved , when the chill hand of diversity is opposed to salvation.

15 April 2011 at 19:37  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

Dreadnought, the main reason the Bosnian and Albania Militia atrocities were never reported by our Left Controlled media, is Muslims are always "victims" of nasty western Christian ...

War is always filled with atrocities, there is no such thing as a "clean" war which our politicians seem to think they can create. What Clinton, Bush, Blair, Brown and a whole lot of other politicans may eventually come to regret is in creating this court ...

They are, themselves, a hairsbreadth from being themselves branded war criminals and dragged into it to answer charges.

15 April 2011 at 20:01  
Anonymous Dreadnaught said...

Indeed Mr Monk, - although the likes of the Telegraph and Times are hardly any less guilty of selective reporting.

Have you any citations for this Ms A - sounds very interesting.

15 April 2011 at 20:15  
Blogger English Viking said...

Kosovo is Serbia.

15 April 2011 at 20:26  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Some very good comments by all, the World rulers of Darkness do much wand waving.

Surely its time some Wands of Office where surrendered to the Light.

15 April 2011 at 20:43  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...

David Owen, no friend of Serbia, believed that much of the trouble in Yugoslavia was caused by the boundaries which Tito had gerrymandered. He did this to reduce the size and influence of Serbia within Yugoslavia so that a high proportion of Serbs lived in other republics. Tito's settlement gave them some security whilst the boundaries were those of local government.

The break-up converted them into international boundaries and many Serbs found they were minorities within new states which wished for their extermination or expulsion . But they were on the wrong side and cast as villains. When some hundreds of thousands were either murdered or ethnically cleansed from the Krajina region in 1995 with the aid of NATO arms, intelligence and airpower, Warren Christopher, US Secretary of State, remarked that this had "simplified the situation".

15 April 2011 at 20:58  
Anonymous venerablejohn said...

I think it is a mistake to couch this in terms of Religion - this was about the release of the ethnic tension inherent in the region which have been suppressed under Tito. Lets not turn this into a point scoring exercise against Christians of a certain denomination, because no one comes out of this looking good.

15 April 2011 at 21:21  
Blogger Bellator said...

I hardly blame the Croat Ustaše and later the Serb Chetniks for siding with the Germans in WWII. The drunken little war-monger Churchill and his government was a complete disgrace and was backing the communists.

Looking at the US & Churchill government's later betrayal of the White Russians to the gulags of the Soviet Union and then the Yalta Betrayal, its quite obvious that siding with the Germans was morally right in their case.

15 April 2011 at 21:34  
Blogger English Viking said...

Bellator,

You might have got a point.

BTW I think Churchill was the last British politician to tell (most of) the truth, and he had actually seen combat himself, so at least he was better than the filth that rules us today.

Naah, He was much better than that.

15 April 2011 at 22:17  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

English Viking said...
"Kosovo is Serbia."

So wrong on this! It had sybolic meaning to Serbs but was never Serbia - ethnically.

"BTW I think Churchill was the last British politician to tell (most of) the truth, and he had actually seen combat himself, so at least he was better than the filth that rules us today."

Agree with the first part. Thank God for Churchill - drink and all. Just a pity the USA didn't have the balls to go on and defeat Stalinist Russia. Stalin, the greatest criminal of the 20th century, surely? It was the Yanks who betrayed Churchill and Europe having made an absolute fortune out of Britain.

This was an ethnic war more than a religious war. The Muslims in the Balkans aren't Islamists.

'Yugoslavia' was always a false 'State' constructed by Stalin for his own ends and conceeded by USA and Britain.

15 April 2011 at 22:40  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Your Grace is to be congratulated for his continued supprt for the Serbs, a doughty and under-estimated people. It was a tragedy that the West succumbed to Saudi and Turkish pressure and attacked the Serbs following the break-up of Yugoslavia. It is also a tragedy that the Serbs provided the West with casus belli.

M/s Dreadnaught @ 19.04, this communicant never thought he word write these words, but that is a wonderful post.

YG, not so long ago your communicant and his bitch were walking through an unfamiliar inner-city precinct when we came across a scene of utter tranquility that caused us to stop and return.

There in a courtyard clad with Virginia creeper an old man sat on a wooden bench. Well-dressed, the old man sat as old men do with his knees apart and his hands resting on the walking-stick held upright between his legs. Beside him sat a young man, dressed in black and with his blond hair pulled back in a pony-tail. The two were deep in conversation. Your communicant was unable to resist entering the courtyard and introducing himself.

The reception was unexpectedly warm. The young man stood and it was immediately obvious that he was a priest. 'My name is Branko', he said, 'Welcome to my church'. The church was Serbian Orthodox. 'Well', I said, 'I'm an Anglican and my bitch is Catholic so we can talk'. And we did.

Then followed the most wonderful conversation about a wide range of topics as Branko showed us around his church and its hall, which from the street were completely unrecognisable as such. The walls and ceilings were exquisitely decorated with iconography in the Byzantine tradition. In particular there was a wonderful mural of the story of the Gadarene swine.

There are many Western politicians who should visit Branko's church, be spell-bound as we were by Branko's inspirational faith and hear his views. Standing in front of that mural of the Gaderene swine might cause some of our leaders to reflect on their own policies.

We thanked Branko for his time and left.

15 April 2011 at 22:50  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Bellator we must awaken!

Are not the pillars of Jachin and Boaz already erected in the US and Russia.

Secterian ventures are folly, yet I still get ridiculed for pointing out my culture is Indic = Aryan.

Note, I say culture and not race, or invasion theory. Witchcraft was never destroyed the Masons are the Craft and Cunning, yet when understood through Indic culture they are nought but the Sorcerers of old.

15 April 2011 at 22:52  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

Your head is so far far up your nether-regions if you really believe your PC bull, that further comment by myself is futile.

Serbia was part of the Allied forces during WWII. Was Albania? No is the answer you are looking for.

In 1948 they had muslim population of 2%.

In 1975 it was 8%.

In 1992 it was close to 40%.

Today it is 94%.

Albanians are not Serbian. They are not our friends, we have NO common ground with them.

How dare we (NATO) bomb a WWII ally in the defence of muslims?

Kosovo is now, alway has been, but probably never will be again, Serbian.

For Serbia, particularly Kosovo, read England, particularly Birmingham, Leicester, Bradford or Leeds. How long till they declare 'independence'?

People like you are a disgrace to the memory of those who fought and died for this country, a disgrace to those who favour freedom of expression and last, but by no means least, your liberal, lefty, weak-willed and lilly-livered 'interpretation' of Christianity is quite literally sickening. The men you despise gave you the power to express you useless opinions with their own blood, and you hate them for it.

Thou art vile.

15 April 2011 at 22:57  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wouldn't be too smug about this your Grace. The head of the CofE Queen Liz used her armies to drive the Serbs out of Kosovo.

She left a bloody mess in her wake.

You don't have to be Nostradamus to predict that the next European conflict will start in this neck of the woods. Johnny Turk is getting rather radicalised at this moment.

15 April 2011 at 23:51  
Blogger English Viking said...

Anon, 23:51

Thank goodness I am not the only one who can see the writing on the wall.

Mene, mene, tekel upharsin.

For those who do not understand, there is a wonderful thing called Google.

16 April 2011 at 00:17  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Dreadnaught, in haste, and there are other sources but this is handy:

http://www.iacenter.org/bosnia/lituchy.htm

16 April 2011 at 00:26  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Anonymous said..."Wouldn't be too smug about this your Grace. The head of the CofE Queen Liz used her armies to drive the Serbs out of Kosovo"

A Toast, the Queen!

Allowed her private troops to be used, at the beck and call of usurpers, only after announcing to the Nation: there are powers at work of which we know nothing about.

You just can't get the staff these days.

Even my old fairy friend Danjo recognises symbolism in pictures, the poster Tis a Whore, has buckets with red and white roses.

Merlin had Red and white dragons fighting neath a castle they saw.

Plantagenets had Red and white roses fighting they saw.

Shit!

Was it only me and the Tudors who saw unity.

16 April 2011 at 00:31  
Blogger Ariadne said...

One final thing before "Goodnight!"

One of the saddest things of the whole business apart from the loss of life and the (engineered?) death of Milosevic: people wondered what had happened to the Yugoslav treasury. What happened was that Milosevic used it to feed his starving people.

Goodnight!

16 April 2011 at 00:42  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

English Viking said...
"Dodo ... blah ... blah ... blah."

Actually I'm rather chuffed we have so little in common. Your immature rantings on this site are so far from my understanding of the Christianity of the Gospels as to be unrecognisable!

You and your kind are a disgrace. Go play your little war games in a dark dungeon somewhere.

16 April 2011 at 00:52  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Oh, can't leave it alone!

Sam Vaknin:
The Myths of Yugoslavia - Part I
The Myths of Yugoslavia - Part II
The Myths of Yugoslavia - Part III

16 April 2011 at 00:59  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Ariadne

Interesting snippets.

Tell me though, is this the same Sam Vaknin who is a self professed narcissist, with a phoney PhD and who also happens to be a diagnosed psychopath?

Sounds like he could be a good mate for English Viking!

16 April 2011 at 01:23  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

There is a cold, dirty cell.

You check yourself; maybe two broken ribs, the collar bone, the jaw.

This is what happens when a person is stamped on.

You pray; nothing happens.

Ypu are accustomed to 'rights'.

You await your 'lawyer'.

More kicking, more slashing, whipping, beating.

Suddenly you realise, your cat-lick nonsense will not save you.

Perhaps a man, a real man, a proddy, can help?

You hate me now, but you'll beg for me then.

16 April 2011 at 01:42  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

I assume we have drawn swords?

Your mistake, not mine.

I promise to accord you the civil rites (in the true sense) of the dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf4IoxEUmHM

16 April 2011 at 01:51  
Anonymous Michal said...

Can Cranmer sometime publish about the Balkans something other than blatant Serb propaganda? This is really incredibly stupid.

Hey Cranmer, remember back when you were defending Mladić? Remember that? How on earth can you complain about his trial, and simultaneously salute conviction of Ante Gotovina? This is just hypocritical to the max.

16 April 2011 at 02:08  
Anonymous Michal said...

No my mistake, not Mladić but Karadzić. Same shit, different asshole.

16 April 2011 at 02:11  
Anonymous Michal said...

Here's the original article where Cranmer speaks at length about why it was generally okay for Karadzić to do what he did. I'm not a big fan of Ante Gotovina, but I find it absolutely reprehensible that he's now trying to pose as a defender of justice, while just a year earlier he was wrote an article as slimey and borderline-celebratory as this one:

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2010/03/radovan-karadzic-defends-his-just-and.html

16 April 2011 at 02:18  
Anonymous Atlas shrugged said...

The Last Dodo said...
Let's not make this a trial of Roman Catholicism!

Lets not.

We could however make it a trial of the people who secretly control the Roman Catholic Church, which I am sure you will agree, is not the same thing at all.

Or was you simply being dishonestly emotive?

Quite frankly this whole clearly filthy business has gone well over my head. Far to complicated, for even someone with the mind the size of Atlas.

HOWEVER

Wars do not just happen, they may appear to have done so, but this is simply an illusion created by our utterly controlled mass media headed up by establishment owned so called 'news' agencies such as Reuters, and The Associated Press, and of course most dishonestly repeated by establishment owned propagators of the most vile disinformation, most notably The BBC, Conrad Black, and Murdoch Enterprises.

Wars take plenty of long term planning, plenty of hard cash, arms, and resources.

They therefore can not happen, or continue to happen for more then a few days without outside help or interference.

This is where CONSPIRACY comes into to play. For an international conspiracy is essential with it comes to modern warfare. Indeed an international conspiracy of some sorts was fairly essential as far back as medieval, and often even classical times.

Now I think we all know who was behind many European and middle eastern wars during medieval times.

Therefore we have no reason to believe that the exact same institution that was behind all of those, is not also in some way or another, behind all/most/some of our current wars.

For this institution still exists, it still incredibly powerful, still has the same aims, still has large controlling share interests in many large arms companies, and is still incredibly well connected with all of the worlds higher leaderships, and banking families.

16 April 2011 at 03:09  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Michal and others: when our (NATO)troops were stationed in Bosnia, and in Kosovo, pre-Dayton Peace Accords, many were encamped near to thousands of 'Mujahieen' fighters from Afghanistan, Pakistan and from Arab states too.

These 'volunteers' committed worse attrocities than ever the Serbs attempted. NATO and the West turned a blind eye.

Indeed, 'official figures' measure the Mujahideen at little more than fifteen hundred, in some cases figures are as low as four hundred.

However, 'private' estimates made by a detachment of Royal Marines, estimated three thousand in their sector alone.

Had 9/11 occurred first, the likes of a muslim 'Kosovo' would not now exist.

We made a big mistake!

16 April 2011 at 03:11  
Anonymous Michal said...

Oswin, I don't think "they did it too" ought to be an excuse for any side. If Cranmer wants excuse acts of Karadzić by saying something along the lines that it was a difficult time for everyone involved and a very extraordinary set of circumstances, then what gives him the right to criticise Gotovina?

I am not very well aware of details of individual cases, however it seems to me that Cranmer simply defends Karadzić because he fought muslims, and lambasts Gotovina, because he fought Serbs...who were fervent religious believers fighting muslims.

Had Gotovina been fighting Bosniaks, it's very well we'd be reading on this page about how completely unjust is the Hague tribunal to a great hero of the Croatian nation.

He can't have it both ways. He can't praise Karadzić as a brave defender of his nation, and say he had it tough, and simultaneously lambast Gotovina regardless of his own situation.

16 April 2011 at 03:26  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Michal: Thank you for your reply.

I had not meant to imply that one side was worse, or less so, than another. Merely, that with most things concerning the Balkans, nothing is clear cut; or for that matter, the involvement of the West in Balkan affairs.

However, I oftentimes feel that the West has largely forgotten that the Balkan states have only relatively recently (well, perhaps just within living memory) freed themselves from the Ottoman yoke.

Regards O.

16 April 2011 at 03:44  
Anonymous Atlas shrugged said...

I don't know if anyone has actually read what I have stated, but it would seem that you are still persisted in pointless attention to the devils details of the matter. Which may I add will undoubtedly get you nowhere worth going to.

This is not a post match analysis on the latest Premier league fixture, this is about WAR.

You remember, that very nasty thing where many completely innocent people get themselves murdered, and for absolutely no useful purpose to themselves or their surviving connections.

Only a very select few ever benefit from wars. Wars have no logical reason to exist at all, if we take them at face value, or how they are presented to us.

Wars are good for nothing.

Wars have only ever happened for the benefit of a tiny few. All you have to do is work out who these tiny few are, you then know why we still have wars, even in the year 2011.

Yes, 2011, not 1811, or 1011.

We live in an interdependent world. A world where a news paper can be read from outer space. The movements of every single human being on this planet can therefore, and very much is being tracked.

Even by infrared technology, which means they can tell when you get up and go to the god damned toilet if they wished to do so.

The movement of arms, and the money they pays for them is even easier to track if the powers that be wish to do so, which they do, they just don't tell us that they know where virtually every penny gets spent, and more importantly what it gets spent on.

Modern WARS are utterly stage managed from start to finish, using many methods the most obvious one being The UN.

16 April 2011 at 04:47  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We all know that the Serbs and Brits have always been in bed with each other, and the comments made buy this narrow minded person clearly shows his hatred for anything or anyone Catholic.
Is he that stupid not to have realized that it was Serbia that attacked Croatia and killed raped and tortured the Croatian people deliberately targeting civilians in the hope to create a greater Serbia .
The pure hate Cramer holds for all Catholics and Croats is very clear to see ,and feel.
Such a disgrace that he gets any attention at all .
He needs to be placed in a straight jacket locked up in a cell and throw away the key.
Shame shame, next time you stand in front of a mirror take a long look at your self and you will see the devil start to appear.

16 April 2011 at 05:04  
Anonymous len said...

I find it quite illuminating that when a religious organisation is accused(rightly or wrongly) of acting in a way which betrays the basic rules of morality those who belong to the particular organisation leaps to its defence.
Regardless of the facts, or even trying to discern the facts!
This shows the difference between a follower of Christ(the Truth) and the follower of Religion.

Without acknowledging the truth(whatever that might be)there can be no repentance and there will be an ever widening gap between you and your Creator.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 reveals that a strong delusion will be sent to all who do not receive a love of the truth.God is not being unfair by sending them this delusion.He is just letting those who resist the truth believe the lie they insist on believing.This delusion will only happen to those who refuse to receive the love of the truth so they will have no one to blame but themselves .
The truth, for many,is difficult to handle so they reject it.

16 April 2011 at 07:28  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Mr Atlas Shrugged @ 03.08 said "Now I think we all know who was behind many European and middle eastern wars during medieval times."

and, "For this institution still exists, it still incredibly powerful, still has the same aims, still has large controlling share interests in many large arms companies, and is still incredibly well connected with all of the worlds higher leaderships, and banking families.'

So who is it?

1) The Royal Automobile Club
2) NM Rothschild & Sons
3) The Royal Yacht Squadron
4) Goldman Sachs Group Inc
5) The Royal Family.
6) The Roman Catholic Church

16 April 2011 at 07:30  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Viking: "For Serbia, particularly Kosovo, read England, particularly Birmingham, Leicester, Bradford or Leeds. How long till they declare 'independence'?"

As it happens, Leicester has a small but significant Serbian population. It even has a Serbian Orthodox church in the city centre. There's also a Serbian Council of Great Britain which has interesting aims if one is sensitive to such things.

Where I live also has quite a number of refugees from Kosovo. They used to man the hand-wash car wash places until the Latvians and Lithuanians came over. Just sayin'.

16 April 2011 at 07:46  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

The Balkans was a geat example of the wonders of multiculturalism.

What we need is more of the same in the UK - it should go well.

As for the Archbishops attack upon the Catholics, how about something from him about the centuries long persecution of Catholics by Protestants in the island of Ireland?

How about the centuries long persecution of Catholics in England by the Church of England?

People in glass houses Archbishop !

16 April 2011 at 08:41  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Oh, and don't forget - the CofE only came to be the State religion by royal edict. The mass of the people were Catholic and were FORCED to become CofE against their will.

Those who resisted were persecuted, robbed of their possessions, taxed, fined etc. In fact it followed the same principles that are used by Islamists to force conversion to Islam. And the CofE stood back whilst the rest of Europe fought off the Turkish Mulsim Empire in its attempts to Islamise the whole of Europe.

Interesting.

Just read your history. The CofE has a very murky past.

16 April 2011 at 08:49  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Len said 16 April 2011 07:28

What an excellent explanation of delusion, as God sent. Spot on, as usual.

Ernst.

16 April 2011 at 09:13  
Anonymous Dreadnaught said...

Ms A - Thanks for that reference.

Mr Dog - too kind Sir!

16 April 2011 at 09:34  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Old Ernsty always chuckles when the rallying call goes out from RCC adherents about any criticism, however mild..emotional blackmail to 'be quiet, bigot'. The Eternal Victim, never the persecutor.

The CofE is not without shame but my dear chap..Centuries of RCC history, as a condemnation against its behaviour..really?? should it not be you, being quiet?

"the CofE only came to be the State religion by royal edict." Old Henry the 8th was a RC until he died and persecuted all and sundry, bit popish, what!
"The mass of the people were Catholic and were FORCED to become CofE against their will." THE MASS..The Catholic wing in CofE are distinct from RCC but are not protestants.

"Those who resisted were persecuted, robbed of their possessions, taxed, fined etc." Ordinary Catholics? I think not..the monks, friars, nuns etc, yes...possessions acquired by stealth from the people for the RCC, using the fears of a godly people, lied to through RCC Dogma.

The Bible, translated into the common tongue helped end this blindness, thankfully.

Bit reserved and economical with the truth of history, old boy. EXPECTED!

E S Blofeld

16 April 2011 at 09:41  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Whenever the Roman Church involves itself in politics, injustice and abuses result. Sadly, it is allowed to do so all too often.

The territory misgoverned by the See of Rome (the Papal States) before Italy was unified was the most impoverished and backward of the entire country.

The Roman Church in Croatia has had a long fascist past and was very pliable in the hands of the Nazis in the persecution of Balkan Jews. War crimes committed by Croatians are nothing new.

What do you expect from a theocracy where leadership is confined to ageing unaccountable celibates and the involvement of the laity is reduced to that of pew fodder?

Roman Christians have little to be proud of in their sordid institutional past and what is surprising that inspite of the institutional flaws, it has still produced so many saintly souls. Or is just good marketing?

16 April 2011 at 10:29  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

I was goin.... ugghhh.

Sorry. a little bit of sick came up.

16 April 2011 at 11:18  
Anonymous MrJ said...

English Viking (16 April 01:51)_ clip of the combat between Hector and Achilles)

What is the story behind the Balkan atrocities? It could be as fundamental as The Decalogue. Consider the stone or wooden statuary of the Pieta, as a "graven image", permitted under the "magisterium" claimed by the Roman tradition of church government in the West (Croat) but outside the icons prescibed under the Orthodox of the East (Serb), and impermissible under the dictates of the Koran and Sharia. (Please correct me if this is not so.)

As everyone knows, the strife and violence of Christendom and beyond has a very long history, even if we go back no further than the Fall of Troy as told from archaic times (Homer) and retold by Vergil at about the beginning of the Christian Era.

The Decalogue had long been and remained part of the venerated Scriptures of the Hebrew (Jewish, Samaritan) religion at the beginning of the Christian Era, and was later taken into the Scriptures of those who revered Mohammed as the last of the Prophets (as understood by them).

It is no exaggeration to say that battles and wars have been fought over these things; and in the ancient world the Jews stubbornly opposed the desecration of their Temple or religion by the use of idolatorous statuary.

Cranmer reminded or informed us of his remarks about "Kosovo independence – a triumph for EU foreign policy" made more three yers ago, Sunday, February 17, 2008, and some further information has been supplied

by commenters above.

Apart from the information (for which thanks), the most helpful comment this morning, to my mind, has been:

_ len 07:28 "...when a religious organisation is accused (rightly or wrongly) of acting in a way which betrays the basic rules of morality those who belong to the particular organisation leap to its defence. Regardless of

the facts, or even trying to discern the facts!"

There are undoubtedly malignant conspiracies, and some of them have come to light. But much of the time they do not know that they, too, are subjects of the powers that be.

Another day and another topic: Now to sign off as Village Explainer, pro tem.

16 April 2011 at 11:22  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Protestants would never dream of committing “war crimes” unless, of course, “sanctioned” by the UN.

“No fly zone” anyone?

16 April 2011 at 11:59  
Anonymous MrJ said...

What is the story behind the Balkan atrocities? It could be as fundamental as The Decalogue.

The Decalogue had long been and remained part of the venerated Scriptures of the Hebrew (Jewish, Samaritan) religion at the beginning of the Christian Era, and was later taken into the Scriptures of those who revered Mohammed as the last of the Prophets (as understood by them). It is no exaggeration to say that battles and wars have been fought over these things; and in the ancient world the Jews stubbornly opposed the desecration of their Temple or religion by the use of idolatorous statuary.

Consider the stone or wooden statuary of the Pieta, as a "graven image", permitted under the "magisterium" claimed by the Roman tradition of church government in the West (Croat) but outside the icons prescribed under the Orthodox of the East (Serb), and impermissible under the dictates of the Koran and Sharia. (Please correct me if this is not so.) As everyone knows, the strife and violence of Christendom and beyond has a very long history, even if we go back no further than the Fall of Troy as told from archaic times (Homer) and retold by Vergil at about the beginning of the Christian Era.

Cranmer reminded or informed us of his remarks about "Kosovo independence – a triumph for EU foreign policy" made more three years ago, Sunday, February 17, 2008, and some further information has been supplied by commenters above.

Whatever malignant conspiracies there may be much of the time conspirators do not know that they, too, are subjects of the powers that be.

16 April 2011 at 12:08  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

len said:
"2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 reveals that a strong delusion will be sent to all who do not receive a love of the truth."

That cuts many ways, sir.

What is the historical 'truth' in the Balkans? Surely the conflict was the dying throws of colonisation of the region by former Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman Empires? Was it really about religion? Surely religion was the tool used to inflame nationalism?

And of course you are correct, no true christian church would defend wilful and deliberate murder. Sadly, regardless of denomination, this happens all too frequently when politics, nationalism, religion and faith get confused.

This conflict is a sad and sorry indictment on all christians.

16 April 2011 at 12:46  
Anonymous len said...

The Last Dodo,
I am in agreement 'the truth cuts both ways',I make no excuses for anyone Catholic, Protestant,Islamic or any other religion.

16 April 2011 at 12:53  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Harry ca-Nab @ 08:49

Indeed, we should all of us read our history. Hopefully with more than a cursory glance, and with due respect to the quality of the sources/resources from which we glean our knowledge. Much wide reading is required.

His Grace IS a Catholic!

Your ''murky'' history of the C-of-E has many sources afore, and beyond Tudor politics alone, like the myriad streams that form a river, from which some, then separate into tributaries, meandering towards the sea.

The History of the C-of-E is not a mere history of protestantism; but, doggedly* continuing with my half remembered remants of ancient geography lessons, the course of the C-of-E has had to negotiate many obstructions along its way:
avoiding the unyielding rocks of ROMAN Catholism, detouring this way and that amongst the rapids, mires and morasses of the Civil War(s) and the plethora of 'oxbow' sects and 'sink-hole' lunatic regimens that threatened to suppress the freedom of the flow.

The 'organic' nature of the C-of-E, aided by the occasional spot of 'dredging', has resulted in a less tumultuous course than other alternate routes might offer.

This navigable compromise has shaped the geography and nature of our State.

The C-of-E is a course for all seasons; may you flourish alongside its largely benign, and fertile banks.

* I wish I'd never begun this torturous analogy; but hey, that's part of the analogy too! :o)

Ps. References to 'floodings' will not be appreciated!

16 April 2011 at 15:32  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Oswin 15:32: generally Yes to that, but "torturous"-- maybe it hurts but could it be "tortuous" as well?

16 April 2011 at 15:47  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Mr. J. : Thank you for your timely correction. Yes, it does indeed 'hurt' whenever I make such a glaring error. Especially so as it the second time, in as many days, that I have made the exact same one! I am obliged to you.

16 April 2011 at 16:07  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

And, of course, Escopalians and Orthodox christians all believe in Apostolic succession.

16 April 2011 at 18:21  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oswain.

The Catholic heritage of the Church of England is a 19th century myth.

To paraphrase Chesterton.

One may say of the Anglicans, that St Peter denied our Lord, but he never denied that he denied him.

16 April 2011 at 18:52  
Anonymous Preacher said...

I wonder if all the money spent on all the wars including the present ones. Was spent on developing cures for the sick & feeding & clothing the poor, plus developing agriculture & education for the third world.
Would we all be living a happier better life? Just a thought.

16 April 2011 at 19:59  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Preacher

Nice thought. John Lennon had similar ideas.

Is universal wellbeing ever truely achievable in a fallen world? True money would be better spent on love than hate but the 'Prince of this World' is still influencing mankind.

16 April 2011 at 21:17  
Blogger Ariadne said...

From the Atlas Shrugs blog owned by Pamela Geller some information that might further confuse those who are confused by Balkans affairs.

Those affairs are most decidedly not dead. While the whole hideous business was going on the 1990s a friend who had internet access downloaded 50 pages of Balkans history for me. I read it and was not much wiser.

Post 1990s a lot of information has emerged which shows how wrong we were to buy what Muslims were selling.

16 April 2011 at 21:47  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Anonymous @ 18:52

So powerful a 'myth' that my family, and thousands of others, believed it for the preceding three hundred and fifty-odd years!

16 April 2011 at 22:16  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Ariadne said...
"From the Atlas Shrugs blog owned by Pamela Geller some information that might further confuse those who are confused by Balkans affairs."

The same AtlasShrugs.com that won the 2005 "Best New Blog" Jewish & Israeli Blog Award? So it will present an impartial take on the Muslims in the Balkans then?

Last night a narcistic psychopath and this tonight!

17 April 2011 at 01:21  
Anonymous len said...

I find it ironic the John Lennon wrote 'give peace a chance' and 'Imagine', nice words but there was a split between the Beatles, so the four of them couldn`t even 'get it together'.


So what hope for World peace......................None whatever!

Until the Prince of Peace rules and reigns on this Planet!

No other religion,no Secular fools paradise stands a hope in Hell of ever succeeding until Jesus Christ
comes back to reclaim this Planet.

17 April 2011 at 09:32  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

Why should Christians avoid ROMAN (as Oswin rightly pointed out) catholicism? Very easy really, at least for an Englishman.

Worship of saints, angels, and statues. Expressly forbidden by the apostles, but condoned by the RCC.

Veneration of a man (the Pope) over and above the One we worship. Forbidden by St Paul. The Pope claims to be the voice of God, the Vicar of Christ, and head of the entire Christian church, subjects which the Patriarchs had serious issues with, and rightly so.

And then the bible, suppression of the bibles translation into native tongues. Why? Because if the people were able to read those texts for themselves they would have seen, and did so, what a bunch of money-grabbing shysters the ecclesiastical authorities had become.

Last, but not least, 1066. With the complaisance of the Pope, purely for filthy lucre and power, the theft of a country, the murder of a rightfully crowned King of England, and over the following twenty years the slaughter of approximately three hundred thousand men, women, and children in England alone.

So no, they can stick ROMAN Catholicism somewhere the sun doesn't shine as far as I am concerned.

17 April 2011 at 09:33  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fortunately where ever there is catholacism the sun will shine.
The only true religion that preaches peace, not a made up religion by some so called king that was responsible for how many deaths ?????????????? at home and abroad and of his own family, ye let's all follow that religion.
Would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

17 April 2011 at 09:49  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82
said...
Too much and not enough!

I do wish people would stop presenting a one sided caricature of Roman Catholicism.

Saints, angels and statues are NOT worshipped by Catholics. Saints and angels are prayed to, yes, but for assistance and not to honour them. The lives of saints are used as inpiration. Statues and, come to that, sacred music, are used to lift the soul above earthly matters and to aid contemplation of spritual things - not worshipped.

The Pope is revered, if this is what is meant by venerated, but not above Christ. Is the Monarch revered in Britain? Is this un-christian?

Translation of the Bible into common tongue was delayed due to more than financial considerations. Most people couldn't read anyway so it was hardly going to dismantle the economic interests of the church! A complex set of factors were at play and, indeed, many good Catholic theologians were pressing for change within the church. Let's be frank, the hothead Luther unleased considerable evil by his frustrated, egocentric outbursts.

The Norman Invasion? The Catholic Church aligning itself with individual states and playing a political role was, in my opinion, unjustifiable. When christianity aligned itself with the Roman Empire it departed from the gospel of Christ. But where would christianity be today if it had not?

So do please present the faith of millions acurately if you're going to attack it. You're entitled to do so but respectfully and in a spirit of christian dialogue, surely?

17 April 2011 at 14:24  
Anonymous Oswin said...

LoBo(?) @ 09:33 :

What-ho!

I don't much mind any of the trappings of Roman Catholicism, the statues and what have you.

It was their domination by, and adherence too, a 'foreign' Prince, and the strangle-hold they held over one third of the land, that did it for me and mine.

Tithes paid to a damned 'Itie' (mostly) was too much for any real Englishman to bear.

17 April 2011 at 18:09  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Sorry, was meant to be an 's' and not a '?' tuts...

17 April 2011 at 18:11  
Anonymous len said...

What was Luther`s contribution to the Christian faith?
I can see why Catholics accuse him of 'upsetting the applecart'.
Luther( who didn`t get everything right)stressed God`s Grace and the sufficiency of faith in Christ for salvation.It was this simple message that undermined the Catholic religious system much as Jesus`s teachings undermined the Pharisees ,and they hated him for it.
Whoever changes the focus from religious practices to Christ alone is inviting trouble from the Hierarchy(not just with Catholics!)

17 April 2011 at 19:05  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

The Last Dodo, if you are praying to saints, statues, and angels you are worshipping them. OED definition of prayer: to offer entreaties and/or thanks to God or another deity.

I've seen RC communities gaily parading statues around on their shoulders, covering the statues with flowers and garlands, in exactly the same manner as Hindus and others treat their idols. And what of those statues reputed to be endowed with 'magical' properties? You mean you treat something made with human hands as if it has life? That's idol worship. It's also how the Romans 'venerated' their idols.

I can hear the Romans now: "Go on, it's only a statue, it doesn't really mean anything as we simply venerate it. So go ahead, offer some incense to the emperor's memory. Honestly, you'll be fine."

Why did the Romans accuse the first Christians of being atheists? Because the Christians didn't pray to anything in front of them, but appeared to be praying to thin air.

Yes, the lives of the saints can be used as inspiration, as can the artwork and I have some nice little copies of ancient icons myself. But to genuflect before their images? To bow down before their images? To kiss their images? To pray to their images? No, sorry you've lost me there if you think you can say that is not worship of idols.

How many people at this moment around the world are praying to the Virgin Mary? What? I thought only God is omnipresent! To the best of my knowledge, once you die you leave this life and have nothing more to do with it (apart from Archbishop Cranmer). It's a vale of tears and our help is in the Lord, no-one else. Yes, he sends His angels to comfort us at times, but again, we are not to pray to them.

For the Pope to claim he was the voice of God was just megalomania, and has no basis in the ancient church at all.

Wycliffe had already died when his punishment was meted out to him. His body was exhumed, burnt to ashes, and then what was left swept into the river Avon. I'm finding it very hard to see where the financial considerations were the cause of his punishment. Perhaps he hadn't paid his bank charges?Tyndale was executed as well. It was he that stated he wanted everyone to see for themselves was the Scriptures said, even the ploughman in the field. He also said:

"To scatter Roman darkness by this light
The loss of land and life I'll reckon slight.”


I think you can see that financial considerations had very little to do with translating the Scriptures into native languages.

My wish is that more people would go right back, to the early centuries of the church, back to the beginning.

Oswin, I keep making spelling mistakes too now, and in fact have taken ages to write this as I kept having to spell-check. I think it's catching, lol!

17 April 2011 at 19:06  
Anonymous Oswin said...

LoBo(s)

Well, I'd not go around 'knocking' Jesus' mother!

I've never thought it unreasonable to pray for the intercession of some worthy holy Christian person, to assist us in our lives; be they dead or alive!

It's being told by some priest that it can only be channeled through him, that is objectionable.

Loosen up a tad, what Saint ever kicked you in the pants??? :o)

17 April 2011 at 19:29  
Anonymous MrJ said...

For the purposes of a debate, Dodo's at 14:24 and LoBos's at 19:06 would do well as the summary arguments on either side.

And for good humour remember the old story about Dr Johnson or Sydney Smith or such a one saying "They will never agree, because they are arguing from different premises" when he encountered two women arguing from separate houses.

17 April 2011 at 19:38  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...
The Last Dodo ....

Too much to cover and way too much heat in your points to make it an open discussion.

Let's just say you misunderstand a great deal about Roman Catholicism. If what you claim were true I would not be a member!

Oswin - low blow and also not entirely accurate as you know full well.

17 April 2011 at 19:54  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

Oswin, I'm not knocking Jesus' mother, lol. She was a good woman, a very gracious and wonderful woman. But still a woman, otherwise where would Jesus have got His humanity from? There is no evidence the early church venerated her in the same way she is venerated today. Leonardo da Vinci also asked (I cannot remember the exact quote but I am sure I can search my books and find it if asked) why people worshipped the Son and yet built so many temples to His mother.

I'm just saying though, people can do it if they must but don't try to convince me that it is something it clearly isn't. Facts are facts. Why do so many people let emotion and what they want to be true cast a veil over facts?

17 April 2011 at 20:05  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

"Let's just say you misunderstand a great deal about Roman Catholicism."

Oh no I don't. I most emphatically do not. And there is a great deal besides the little I have already written.

But as you so wish, another time then.

17 April 2011 at 20:15  
Anonymous Oswin said...

LoBo(s)

What facts exactly? Serious question, I'm not taking any sort of a rise.

The 'very' early Church appears to have involved women considerably : ref' the catacomb paintings at whatsit & thingummybob from doofer etc ... hopefully someone will supply the relevant details; it's late and my brain hurts etc.

The Last Dodo @ 19:54: hey, go easy there old chap! Barring divine intervention and/or another readily available ROMAN Catholic, I'm the nearest you have to a mate on this one! Besides, I was throwing no blows, low or otherwise, just giving my opinion, is all.

Anyhows, don't you think 'English Catholic' sounds so much better?

18 April 2011 at 01:36  
Anonymous len said...

'English' Catholic has a more subtle ring to it Oswin.

The problem with Jesus`s mother and Catholicism is when they stared calling Mary the Mother of God and then co- Redemptrix.

I believe this goes a little further than mere 'interpretation 'of Scripture

18 April 2011 at 08:15  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

18 April 2011 at 08:47  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

I just love it when the 'bish starts up on his Catholic baiting.

The bile and hatred that spews forth from his co-religionists just shows how similar in belief and practice many protestants are to Islamists - imagine Paisley in a beard and mufti.

Maybe the role of the CofE is to "soften" the UK up for sharia - the idiot Arch Bish of Canterbury seems up for it.

We will pray for your salvation.

18 April 2011 at 08:50  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

I only got a couple of hours sleep Oswin, so my head hurts now, lol. But I'll have a go now and then come back to it later.

Firstly, what people pray to is what people worship, and the RCC method of praying to saints and angels is identical to that employed by other religions in the worship of their idols. This is a simple fact yet The Last Dodo says I am wrong. No, I am not.

I state as a fact that people were punished for translating the bible into the common tongue, yet The Last Dodo claims the major reasons for non-translation were financial ones. I find this very difficult to square with what I know.

And praying to saints and angels? Why? It's like being offered first class travel for free but opting for cattle-class instead. We have direct access to Him, so what on earth do we need to pray to the saints for? Is He not good enough, not equipped enough, is He too busy to listen to us? That isn't true. The more I look at the Universe around us the more in awe of Him I am, and that He pays so much attention to us. Jesus also said the the Father pays attention to the needs of the tiniest sparrow, so why would He not listen to us? How many times did He say that He listens to us and intercedes for us? Did the apostles pray to St Stephen? Did Jesus or the apostles pray to the prophets? Not once.

As Len points out, there are problems with their veneration of Mary. They call her Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. Yet the apostles taught “There is one God, and one Mediator between God and man; the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 3:5). “There is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved” (Acts 1:12).

They claim that the Pope is infallible, that only RC's are true Christians, and that people can only be saved through the RCC, her sacraments, and her grace. Tell that to the thief on the cross, tell that to Jesus. When someone asked Him what works they needed to perform in order to be saved Jesus' answer was simple: Believe in Him whom He has sent. Nothing more.

How many times did Jesus rail against those who put their traditions ahead of His teachings? The RCC puts their traditions ahead of biblical teachings frequently, as you can see from what I have written here.

And if Harry-ca-Nab thinks this is bile and hatred, when all I am doing is pointing out facts and dislike intensely people trying to deny what is clearly true, then he lives on a different planet to me.


There are more things I could write, but I have a headache now and need some coffee, lol.

18 April 2011 at 08:56  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Len @ 08:15 :

Thank you Len, 'subtle' is better, as you say.

Yes, you are right, the fault lies not with Our Lady, but elsewhere. Unforunately, because of the 'elsewhere' Our Lady has been unjustly 'dropped' by much of Protestantism, an attidude I have never understood.

LoBo(s)@ 08:56 :

Thanks for that young Clint!

Several points, but I'll just make the one here: ''...it's like being offered First Class travel for free but opting for cattle class instead.''

I see what you mean, but: why then do we pray to Jesus, Son of God, when we can pray to God, the Father, directly?

I agree with Protestantism as to the freedom of prayer, but not their prescriptive practices as to whom I should pray; that is as equally contentious as the strictures of Roman Catholic observances.

As to praying to Saints, well it is something of a lottery. Like some Popes, not all were as 'saintly' as they ought to be; some were decidedly 'dodgy' even.

However, those 'saint' contemporaries of Jesus are different, surely?

Whilst taking into account Len's differentiation, what objection can be made against praying to Jesus' blessed Mother?

After all, all classes of railway carriage are pulled by the same engine, yes? (winks)

18 April 2011 at 12:09  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Thoroughfare for use of persons walking up and down, maybe street market or street party, procession or parade -- on opposite sides different premises -- if a building erected in the street is public, then open access, and choice of entry to one or other or both (or neither); if not, not.

For entertainment, discussion, what you will.

Not unlike a blog space? (Such as LoBos's and onward to Ann Barhardt, or Harry-ca-nab's.)

18 April 2011 at 13:19  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

Because Oswin, lol, Jesus is the Father. He is the Father but in human form hence the 'Son' title. When Philip asked Jesus to show them the Father, Jesus said this:

“Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

Jesus also said that He and the Father are One, and that no-one comes to the Father but by Him. He didn't mention anyone else there, not even His Mum, only Himself.

None of the apostles ascribed divine status to anyone but Jesus. One of the reasons the soldiers mocked Jesus was because of His claim to divine status. This is shown in their robe being described as a 'purple' robe by St John and Mark. The emperor of Rome wore purple and he claimed royal and divine status, so just as the thorns were a mockery of a crown, the stick a mockery of a sceptre, so the cloak a mockery of the emperors purple robe.

Paul tells us that anyone teaching things contrary to the apostles teaching we were to have nothing to do with. There are RCC teachings which fly in the face of what the apostles taught.

Paul spoke in his letters about the encroaching of pagan practices amongst Christian congregations and he was very firmly against it. This happened even more once Constantine legalised Christianity and it became 'fashionable' to be a Christian. Honouring the memory of Mary is one thing, but praying to her as to God is quite another. Don't you think so?

18 April 2011 at 14:08  
Anonymous Oswin said...

LoBo:

God existed before Jesus, Jesus as a son, is part of God; coming to God through Jesus does not mean that one cannot, or should not, pray to Mary and/or others, as long as the 'others' are part of God's/Jesus' holy, for want of a better word 'entourage' - praying to Mary, is not as praying to God, it is as praying to Mary, Mother of Christ, CHOSEN by God.

Anyhows, I don't see it so much as 'praying to Mary' as including her in one's prayers, and asking her for her intercession when required.

As for who told what to whom for whatever purposes - the jury is still out on that one.

We only know what we have been allowed to know betwixt much chopping and changing; editing, consolidating, mistranslations and 'tweaking', by the same ROMAN Church that we both hold in somer suspicion, to differing degrees; agreed? I mean, we can't have it both ways can we?

18 April 2011 at 15:47  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

18 April 2011 at 15:54  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

No Oswin, I don't agree with any of what you said there, because you have already shown that you want to do, regardless of what I say, lol. So I'll just leave it at that.

18 April 2011 at 15:58  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Tut tut, I'm always willing to have my opinion changed; indeed, I delight in it. You haven't answered you know, you really haven't.

You can't really slate aspects of Roman Catholicism, whilst using others, to support your argument.

To anyone else arriving fresh to the scene, I am NOT defending Roman Catholicism, merely making a point.

As my old Grannie used to reply, when asked difficult, knotty questions: ''what would Jesus do?''

What do you imagine HIS reaction would be, to someone praying to, or mentioning, or asking for the intercession of, his mother?

Eh?

18 April 2011 at 16:27  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

It's when you stated this:

"As for who told what to whom for whatever purposes - the jury is still out on that one. We only know what we have been allowed to know betwixt much chopping and changing; editing, consolidating, mistranslations and 'tweaking', by the same ROMAN Church that we both hold in somer suspicion, to differing degrees; agreed? I mean, we can't have it both ways can we?"

That's a contradictory statement and is something more from The Da Vinci Code rather than anything based on facts. For example, if the R.C.C. had altered the texts then why would they alter them in such a way as to completely nullify some of their practices and teachings? It just wouldn't happen as they'd be working against themselves and refuting their own claims to authority. To explain the reliability of the texts would take a lot of writing, and I don't know if I have the will to, based on past experience with others, lol.

His Mother has done her time on earth. He'd likely ask why you are trying to talk to His mother, when the Creator of the Universe is standing right next to you.

18 April 2011 at 16:43  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Simple question:

How many 'Gospels' were there? Who chose what, and for what reason.


This has nothing to do with silly novels.

18 April 2011 at 16:48  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

len said...
"The problem with Jesus`s mother and Catholicism is when they stared calling Mary the Mother of God and then co- Redemptrix."

Mary was the natural mother of Jesus who, if I understand it correctly, was both man and God in a mysterious hypostatic union. No? So she was the earthly Mother of God. I genuinely struggle with the angst this seems to stir up.


So far as 'co-Redemptrix' is concerned, Vatican II deliberately avoided using this expression because it is open to misunderstanding and is offensive to our protestant brothers and sisters. There is a devotion to Mary and a practice of presenting petitions to her to intervene on our behalf with her son. Is it so unreasonable to believe she might intervene as a loving mother on our behalf?

Admittedly there are 'cults' to Mary which the church permits that some see as being prone to overstating her role in salvation. All I can say is that she has been a source of great help to me in my life and my journey of faith.

'English Catholic' doesn't sound better to me. No. Catholic is universal and, if anything, I'd drop the 'Roman, and just state I'm a Catholic. But then that causes offence to some too!

18 April 2011 at 16:54  
Anonymous Oswin said...

The Last Dodo : you'll do for me then! Perhaps just a few more wee issues to attend to first, and then we'll be taking tea together. :0)

18 April 2011 at 17:20  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

You'll have to wait until I've had some sugar.

18 April 2011 at 17:30  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

Well luckily you didn't take my last comment as a euphemism Oswin. Or did you? I only realised it could be 'mis-read' about five minutes later, lol.

The four gospels were accepted as authoritative, unofficially, long before Constantine. It has been said that you can reconstruct much of the NT from the Church Fathers quotations alone, but the oldest surviving list of NT canon books dates from approximately AD 180 - 200.

Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, referred to the gospels in the early 2nd century AD i.e. approximately AD 115.

Iranaeus passed on what Polycarp, who had been a student of John, told him. i.e. that Matthew wrote his gospel for the Hebrews in their own language, that Mark gospel came from the preachings of Peter which Mark had copied down, that Luke had written his gospel whilst with Paul, and John had composed his gospel while in Ephesus. This was also confirmed by Papias, a contemporary of Polycarp.

That in a nutshell. For more detailed and authoritative information, and if you are serious about finding these things out, then I recommend to begin with:

"The New Testament Documents - Are they reliable?" by F.F. Bruce

"Redating the New Testament" by John T. Robinson

"The Truth Behind The Da Vinci Code" by Richard Abanes

That last title was tongue in cheek actually, lol.

18 April 2011 at 19:18  
Anonymous MrJ said...

If it's easy to see how we might come to say "shot himself in the other foot", could one also say "put his tongue in the other cheek"? (This is not in reference to any of the above.)

After following this discussion with friendly interest, "tongue in cheek" (we all do it) was cue for search, with a result which has explained what a lifetime of curiosity had neglected to discover, and which is placed here in case anyone may be interested:

Roderick Random (Smollett, 1748) while taking a coach to Bath apprehends a highwayman. When a more timid passenger, speaking "with a faultering voice, says "O! 'tis very well — damn my blood! I shall find a time." Roderick signified contempt of him "by thrusting my tongue in my cheek, which humbled him so much, that he scarce swore another oath aloud during the whole journey.”

A similar usage: 1828 in Walter Scott's The Fair Maid of Perth: "The fellow who gave this all-hail thrust his tongue in his cheek to some scapegraces like himself."

The ironic sense is said to have appeared later in "The Ingoldsby Legends" (1842) -- Frenchman inspecting a watch: 'Superbe! Magnifique!' (with his tongue in his cheek).

The ironic usage supposedly originated with the idea of suppressing mirth — biting the tongue to prevent outburst of laughter. No laughing matter, in any tongue perhaps.

18 April 2011 at 23:10  
Anonymous len said...

The Mary Mother/ Child thing has its roots in Paganism, as does some of the Roman Catholic practices.
God warns us against mixtures, mixing Truth and error( certainly no laughing matter where God is concerned.) God abhors mixture Dt 22:9-11
"You shall not sow your vineyard with two kinds of seed, or all the produce of the seed which you have sown and the increase of the vineyard will become defiled. You shall not plow with an ox and a donkey together. You shall not wear a material mixed of wool and linen together." (Deuteronomy 22:9-11).
This obviously has greater implications!
Christianity is not an eclectic religion, where we are free to pick and choose from various beliefs, philosophies, and faiths; building a religion that "fits" us. Rather, we are called to live by the Word of God; to build our lives upon His word and live as if we really believe it to be true. When we live our lives by His word, His truth sets us free. Everything else is a precipitous slope into slavery. "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." (Colossians 2:8)
........
WV retch (possibly God`s reaction to Religion rather than faith in Christ?)

19 April 2011 at 08:22  
Anonymous MrJ said...

len 8:22_As one (doubtless of many) who can agree with most of your comment, the proposition "The Mary Mother/ Child thing has its roots in Paganism" could be said to be an unproven allegation based on insufficient knowledge of the mysterious ways in which God moves, preparing the way for what is to come. No matter the quantity of instances that could be cited from Biblical and all other sources, let this suffice: "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written." John 21v.25.

19 April 2011 at 08:59  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

MrJ, are you one of those hoping to be convinced then, lol? I read your comment on the other thread.

There is not even the slightest hint in apostolic teachings with regards praying to anyone other than God. But if we follow other peoples claim to its logical conclusion, then it means that we are permitted to pray to anyone we deem good enough. Perhaps I should pray to Winston Churchill at his statue, or maybe even the Duke of Wellington at his? After all, I could do with a new pair of boots, lol. How about the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius? He wrote a very good book, 'Meditations', so we could claim he was a worthy man. So yes, let's set up a statue to him and pray for his assistance, maybe offer him incense too? Oh wait. That's what the first Christians were executed for as they refused to do that, reserving prayer and worship for God alone. They said 'Jesus is Lord'. Not the Emperor, nor Mary, nor any of the saints that had been martyred in their time, but Jesus and only Jesus.

Do you see now? We can't chop and change things based on what we'd like/hope to be true. There are two types of people:

1. Those who when they hear something that does not fit in with what they wanted to hear (it could be anything at all) weep and wail and deny it, making all sorts of excuses to justify their feelings.

2. Those that simply accept the facts as they are, and don't let personal feelings influence their decision. Logic and reason. It might seem cold to some but it has its uses.

Unfortunately those under category 1 appear to be in the majority.

19 April 2011 at 09:19  
Anonymous MrJ said...

LoBoS 09:19 "...are you one of those hoping to be convinced then?": Since you ask, the short (not meaning unfriendly) answer is No, and your kindly meant explanation finds no contest with me.

19 April 2011 at 11:19  
Anonymous Oswin said...

LoBo(s)19:18 :

Oooh, I'm interested in this! Busy today, so will get back to you later.

An after-thought: Caution young Clint, there's a smidgin of the 'Dan-Jo' in your current desire to be 'right' - God forfend! That is, not so much in what you purport, but in your attempt(s) to discredit the integrity, intellectual or otherwise, of those who might think other than you.

Twice now you have, as it appears to me, intimated that I could not be swayed, by YOUR, or any argument, because of some entrenched resistance to the 'truth' as you perceive it to be.

That is both weak, and an insult, and no argument whatsoever.

19 April 2011 at 12:06  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Oswin: "An after-thought: Caution young Clint, there's a smidgin of the 'Dan-Jo' in your current desire to be 'right' - God forfend! That is, not so much in what you purport, but in your attempt(s) to discredit the integrity, intellectual or otherwise, of those who might think other than you."

Still got a sore ego I see.

What you describe is pretty much what I got in spades in my first interactions with him. His blog explains why after a fashion though I didn't know it at the time. It gives an insight into personality anyway even if it doesn't excuse.

You know, this place is just like a forum with all the usual behaviour and characters and difficulties. The religious nature of it seems to have no effect on that. Years ago I would have been surprised but not now.

I realised very early on that the core nature of this place (the comments area) is verbally violent and aggressive and very bigotted so I just stand my own ground. I know it drives some people mad. It helps of course to be self-confident and to have an inherently strong position. :)

19 April 2011 at 13:59  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

MrJ, thanks for your reply, you had me before a little, lol.

Oswin, this is not about ME being right, but simply about people that cannot accept things because they don't want to hear them. People do it all the time. Hell's teeth, even doctors (your GP even) can tell you that people do that all the time as well. Haven't you heard of the stages of grief? Begins with denial, and works through other processes before acceptance. I don't have those things. I have facts presented and, provided they are supported by the evidence, I accept them. No matter what those facts are. My daughter and one of my sisters will tell you, one of the reasons they doesn't like arguing with me is because more often than not I am correct. However, they will also tell you that if I am shown to be wrong about something I admit the error and adjust accordingly. However, make damn sure you get your facts right as the tears will not be mine, unless they are those of frustration, lol.

DanJ0, you really don't understand me do you, lol, not even in the slightest? I told you before, stop trying to be an amateur psychologist, you are not up to it.

19 April 2011 at 14:26  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

MrJ, thanks for your reply, you had me before a little, lol.

Supposed to read:

MrJ, thanks for your reply, you had me worried before a little, lol.

19 April 2011 at 14:28  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"DanJ0, you really don't understand me do you, lol, not even in the slightest? I told you before, stop trying to be an amateur psychologist, you are not up to it."

You reckon?

19 April 2011 at 16:02  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

Interesting DanJ0. Your response reveals you.

I have a mental disability (which has many good points as well as bad) and you deride me for it. Have I ever used it as an excuse? No. Have I ever asked for sympathy? No. Do I want sympathy or molly-coddling? Never. I am on here as an adult, engaging with other adults, in adult conversation. But no matter how many times I have asked you to stop trying to psycho-analyse me you still keep doing it and ignoring my requests. Again. And again. And again. And again. And again. Have I ever run around crying 'hate-speech'? Never. Yet the minute anyone criticises your sexual indulgences (which I have never mentioned before I might add) you cry like a baby and accuse people on here of hate-speech. You are a hypocrite with appalling double-standards. You want to see hate-speech? Go to Pink News occasionally, or maybe a pro-Muslim website. Left wing websites are also a good place to visit as they frequently stoop to enormous depths in their attempts to ridicule and silence opposition. If you don't like the discussions on this site then do one of two things: Either man up or move out.

19 April 2011 at 16:49  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Just passing through, & no time to stop, other than to repudiate (utterly pointless I know) DanJo's little address.

First off, I make no apologies for using you as an example of a 'bad' example.

Secondly, my ego is marvelously ubruised, and in no way sore or tender. I keep it in a box, for safety.

Besides, you really don't have the 'credentials' to upset me unduly, beyond being something of an irritant, that is. 'Ego' still firmly in its box, just stating the way it is, is all.

Clint and myself are enjoying (mostly) something of a theological contretemp, so bugger-off and seek attention elsewhere.

19 April 2011 at 17:37  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Oswin: "Clint and myself are enjoying (mostly) something of a theological contretemp, so bugger-off and seek attention elsewhere."

I was leaving you alone until you chose to have an unnecessary poke at me up there. Christ on a bike!

19 April 2011 at 18:00  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Spoon: "If you don't like the discussions on this site then do one of two things: Either man up or move out."

What a really curious thing to say. And the rest too. Weird. It's like projection or something, bearing little resemblance to the reality.

19 April 2011 at 18:42  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

And that prompted the completely unwarranted insults directed at me...how?

19 April 2011 at 18:43  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

Oh I see, commented at the same time. My 18.43 was directed at your 18.00.

19 April 2011 at 18:44  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Spoon: "And that prompted the completely unwarranted insults directed at me...how?"

All insults at you are warranted now. I told you that when you sought to gang up with your two mates not that long ago. Not that it did you any good, to me it served it purpose very well in publishing typical 'Christian' online behaviour.

But what insults anyway? I was just explaining the quirks of your behaviour since Oswin has clearly noticed your modus operandi when you don't like something in a debate. And what deriding? That's not deriding. You're too sensitive by far. Man up etc.

19 April 2011 at 19:03  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Spoon: "You are a hypocrite with appalling double-standards."

A comment on this, too. Like most things you accuse me of, you have this yourself in spades.

What's happened to the Wikipedia scorn? All the snotty stuff about red-brick universities etc? Your outrage has very limited reach, it seems. ;)

What about the use of multiple IDs to post insults? You were outraged about that when you thought it was being done to you yet you happily stand by without comment whilst your sidekick Blofeld does it time and again. Hmmm.

And the inner-Christian thing that I beat Blofeld up about. You're almost as bad, though perhaps you have more of an excuse. Ask yourself: "what would Jesus do now?" each time you do it. There's no point your accusing me of being a Pharisee like last time either, I'm clearly not a bloody Christian.

Know thyself.

19 April 2011 at 19:23  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

What a deeply deeply unpleasant person you are. Good grief. And nearly everyone on this site can see it except for you.

19 April 2011 at 19:39  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"What a deeply deeply unpleasant person you are. Good grief. And nearly everyone on this site can see it except for you."

It was difficult to argue back there huh? I'll bet.

Look, a number of people here want to 'repatriate' Muslims from the UK. There is regular talk of the need for a neo-crusade. We have a number of BNP supporters here. I think it's fair to say that Muslims are pretty much hated by the bulk of comment posters. Catholicism is described as filth by one protestant. There are internecine fights between various Christians, and almost everyone turns on the pacifist one. We have one or more so-called Christians posting using multiple IDs to cause trouble. There's viciousness here about homosexuality. You yourself have tried to insult and, without foundation, call people liars. People gang up against others, clearly demonstrated by you. We have a surplus of tin foil hat people. I've been called all sorts regarding Marxism for some reason and I voted Tory at the last election! It's all mad and bad. :) Look at the bottom of the third article from the top even as we post to see the way it works here. And you say it is me who is deeply unpleasant as though everyone else is all sweetness and light?! Bloody hell Spoon, you're 90 degrees out of phase matey.

This place is really interesting, it's not a complaint I'm making, but you guys are well weird on the whole. You're really in no position to cast aspersions! :)

19 April 2011 at 20:25  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

No, you are the problem.

You blame me for other peoples actions, blame me for the fact that from the very beginning you have done nothing but ridicule and deride those that don't subscribe to your beliefs, never take responsibility for what you say/do but must always try to blame it on others, made claims to knowledge that you clearly didn't have, love to dish it out but can't take it (as I explained weeks before and you had no answer to, and don't bother thinking one up now as it won't wash) hence the episode a few weeks ago amongst other reasons (at which I also said I'd stop, and have done), you make the absurd claim that you are the only person on this site with integrity (high moral standards just in case you didn't know), and have repeatedly for some time 'attempted' to psychoanalyse me despite very polite requests to stop. I have never even touched on your homosexuality due to it being very personal to you, then you come on here today and make an unwarranted attack upon me yet again ... and you now sit here just making excuses and judging me?

The only mistake I made was being honest about myself, a mistake which has now (albeit a little late) been rectified. And typically you seized on that honesty to make yet more puerile insults. I had forgotten that there are people like you that trawl the Internet looking for places they can try and cause trouble whilst hiding behind a 'linkless' name. That's not to say all linkless names are trouble, but by their fruit you will know them and your fruit stinks to high heaven.

A man with integrity wouldn't have made those comments in the first place. A man with integrity recognising he was out of order would have apologised, and I have given you enough time to. No, no. You can go back to the rock you crawled out from under.

Actually, I have a better idea. Since you have by now made it perfectly obvious that you will not leave me alone, have also made it obvious that you will not stop your insulting and puerile attempts at psycho-analysis despite repeated and polite requests to stop, since you have demonstrated that you simply ... oh why do I bother? With you it is in one ear and out of the other, or goes right over your head.

If you won't go, and you clearly won't, then I will. Stay away from me. If I start a website again and you ever appear on it again you will be reported to your Service Provider. Savvy? And in case you didn't know, they do take action against people that break their T.O.S. I won't be back so insult away as much as you like.

Sorry Oswin, but I've had it up to here with this one. He's a nasty snide little numbskull (*background squeels* oooh oooh hate speech again!) who will not stop and the only way to deal with it now is to walk away, which I am doing.

19 April 2011 at 21:11  
Anonymous len said...

Danjo,
Why do you keep coming back then?

Heat, kitchen, etc.


Not that I wish you to go..................Just asking?

19 April 2011 at 21:48  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Len: "Why do you keep coming back then?"

As I said at the bottom, I find it quite interesting even if it is fairly extreme at times for a liberal like me. Perhaps I should just read the articles which are much more palatable and balanced.

Actually, I ought to apologise to His Grace since there appears to be open warfare down here in the comments at the moment and I'm part of it. I shall try to tone it down dramatically from today rather than detract from the articles.

19 April 2011 at 22:49  
Anonymous len said...

Danjo,
There appears to be more heat than light going on at the moment but I believe talking is good if conducted in the right spirit,and some of the comments on this blog by professing'Christians ' are clearly not very Christlike!

Christians come in all varieties and as I said before we are all'a work in progress'and we all react in different ways.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the good news that God LOVES people and wishes to draw people to himself.This was the whole message of Jesus Christ.
We Christians sometimes/often/ betray the Gospel message by judging and condemning rather than showing the compassion and the love of our Saviour towards humanity.

Bless you.

19 April 2011 at 23:18  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kill yourselves you worthless english dogs!

20 April 2011 at 23:44  

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