Sunday, April 10, 2011

BNP member arrested for burning the Qur'an in his own garage

Spot the difference.

On the left is a copy of the Bible, desecrated (at the taxpayer's expense) by Glasgow's Gallery of Modern Art. On the right is a copy of the Qur'an, allegedly burned in the garage of BNP member Sion Owens (at his own expense).

Contrast the response of the police over this man's decision to burn a copy of the Qur'an with their complete indifference to the desecration of the Bible. The response to that 'exhibit' was measured, but the offence to many Christians was no less palpable. But Sion Owens has been arrested under the Public Order Act.

Since when has it been possible to commit a public order offence in the privacy of one's own garage?

The Home Office is reported to have ‘absolutely condemned’ the book-burning incident. A statement said: ‘It is fundamentally offensive to the values of our pluralist and tolerant society.’

Curious, that. For there are some who would say precisely the same about the Qur'an. Indeed, Dr Richard Dawkins might even say it of the Bible.

The state permits freedom of artistic expression, and the Bible is considered fair game. One cannot coerce the non-believer to revere that to which he or she is completely indifferent and, in an increasingly post-Christian and secular context, the Bible is perhaps no more sacred than the latest Harry Potter book.

But we are reminded time and again that the burning of the Qur'an is one of the most offensive acts to Muslims that could be imagined. Certainly, it is sacred to many millions, who assiduously wash even before touching it and keep it on the very top shelf in a place of supreme honour: they take the word of Allah very seriously indeed. And yet, for millions more non-Mulsims, it is nothing but a book, and for some of these millions, a vile book indeed. Certainly - how shall His Grace put it? - not everyone agrees that it is 'God's guidance' on any matter whatsoever.

In the UK, there is now pressure even upon public libraries to set aside the Dewy Decimal Classification and place the Qur'an on the top shelf.

His Grace has said many times that he is not one to condone the burning of books; that is, unless he is cold and has run out of logs. And he certainly would never condone causing gratuitous offence.

But there is an emerging state coercion here which is moving perilously close to the need for an 'I am Spartacus' moment: not, in any sense, either to support the odious BNP or to cause offence to Muslims; but to stick two fingers up to the ubiquitous, illiberal totalitarianism which denies freedom of expression by negating the right to offend against the supposed sensibilities of minorities. The doctrine of the state is compelling respect and enforcing reverence for that which the majority may consider profane. That is not only an offence against democracy: it is an offence against the conscience and a negation of the religious liberties for which (inter alia) His Grace laid down his life.


Blogger @molesworth_1 said...

Spot, and indeed, on. And I speak as an atheist.

10 April 2011 at 20:16  
Anonymous MrJ said...

The Daily Mail report seems to be unverified: "It is unclear when the alleged burning took place."

How reliable is the reporting of the South Wales Police saying: ‘We always adopt an extremely robust approach to allegations of this sort and find this sort of intolerance unacceptable in our society.’

Not even the blast which Cranmer has uttered would be adequate to denounce such a statement by police. It should be immediately retracted by the Chief Constable and repudiated by the Home Secretary.

10 April 2011 at 20:20  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

I can only say that it is fortunate for this woman that she does not live in the UK, and more power to her elbow as far as I can see:

Ann Barnhardt

That is the second part of her video message. The part one video is quite interesting as well.

10 April 2011 at 20:21  
Blogger grace the collie said...

what molesworth_1 says.

10 April 2011 at 20:21  
OpenID Paul Dean said...

An interesting blog from John Piper the other day said: "The parallel between Christianity and Islam is not that Christ parallels Mohammed and the Qur’an parallels the Bible. The parallel is that the Qur’an parallels Christ. The giving of the Qur’an is in Islam what the incarnation of Christ is to Christianity."

I should be entitled to destroy any idol that belong to me, in this case a copy of the Qur'an. I think though that the public order offence is that a video of it has been made and distributed publicy.

10 April 2011 at 20:22  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Destroying your own property on your own property is now a crime? The day of reckoning can't come soon enough...

10 April 2011 at 20:25  
Anonymous francis said...

@LobotomySpoon82: How appallingly offensive. (I refer, of course, to the dreadful waste of perfectly good bacon. Now there's something which really should be a public order offence!)

10 April 2011 at 20:27  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Paul Dean,

His Grace understands that theological point. But Muslims are at liberty to deny the divinity of Christ, and to do so publicly. And how is distributing film footage of a burning Qur'an in any sense different from the image published above?

10 April 2011 at 20:28  
Blogger Claire Khaw said...

How can it be a public order offence if it was just a video that was passed to the Observer which the Observer passed to the police?

To be a public order offence, would that not mean that a member of the public had to see this display in a public place?

Which section of the Public Order Act is he being charged under?

Sounds like a case malicious prosecution to me.

10 April 2011 at 20:36  
Anonymous non mouse said...


Being on Mr. Owens' side, I hope the anti-Home Office and its officious men-at-arms will see fit to leave him alone.

As should the msm, of course: forgetting media flagellation of the Floridian who stood up for similar beliefs(albeit in public).

10 April 2011 at 20:38  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

This is the full text of John Pipers article:

Burning the Qur’an and Crucifying Christ

10 April 2011 at 20:39  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

Francis, I suddenly have a craving for fried bread, tomatoes, and bacon.

10 April 2011 at 20:47  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

I sincerely hope that Mr Owens faces no charges. I also hope that more brave people take to burning this book and post it on the internet. If it clarifies one muslim's mind then it has done some good. One has to remember that muslims don't accept equivalence regarding their religion. If someone burns a Bible and no one complains, to the distorted minds of muslims, this does not mean that they should also tolerate the burning of their book. They do not accept that any other religion has any legitimacy and therefore unless one submits to their abnormal religion, then they are not just entitled, but rather they must punish the kuffar. That's us, by the way. Now I don't regard myself, as a Christian, as being an unbeliever. However, I do regard muslims as followers of a satanic cult. If that's what they want to do with their lives, then so be it. But I suggest that normal people would reject such a body of belief and resist anything that it does to encroach into their life.

10 April 2011 at 20:48  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"Since when has it been possible to commit a public order offence in the privacy of one's own garage?"

The public order offence would be posting it on youtube, I'd have thought.

10 April 2011 at 20:58  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

I'm up for everyone in the UK burning a copy, together with a copy of the bible, and a union flag. Not out of disrespect for what the items might mean to people but out of respect ... for our tradition of freedom.

10 April 2011 at 21:01  
Anonymous IanCad said...

I cannot but admire the girl (Ann Bernhardt) who bookmarks the pages of the Koran, that she is about to burn, with bacon.
The female of the species is more deadly than the male. Don't get those Yank women started. They eat liberals for breakfast.

10 April 2011 at 21:03  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

Well, other bloggers are drawing attention to the fact that the police deliberately ignored the rape and murder of white girls by muslim gangs, that the desecration of Christian grave sites has been allowed in order to make way for muslim grave sites, yet they arrest a man for burning a koran...?

10 April 2011 at 21:03  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Hmmm, I read earlier that it was posted on youtube yet the beeb says different in its article. *scratches head*

10 April 2011 at 21:06  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

We already know the State is our enemy, not until we turn politics and economics into mythology will we be safe.

Imagine a future when the word lib/lab/con is an evil ogre in a fairystory that no one could ever believe existed, its so ugly.

Yet children will still understand the moral of the tale, they will check under their beds at night to make sure the lib/lab/con is not hidden away, waiting for them to fall asleep. For the story goes when we fall asleep the lib/lab/con goes to work and destroys our Sacred Isles.

Sleep tight children, it was all a bad dream.

10 April 2011 at 21:33  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Sion Owens was already known to the police: he was arrested in 2006 for distributing BNP leaflets but received a ‘substantial out of court settlement’ from Swansea police in 2010. Their latest treatment of him—ransacking his house and keeping him in custody over the weekend—is, of course, completely devoid of revenge. Whether it was necessary to arrest his disabled partner (her spine was broken in a car accident) and lock her up overnight without her painkillers is debatable. Her crime was to admit that she shared Mr Owen’s politics.

10 April 2011 at 22:02  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Oh! Do let's give that despicable yellow and blue rag from the eussr a good flaming... while we're on about burning.

Then we can set about all their illegal laws; and so, onwards

@ JohnnyR - and to think that Bobbies used to be our own kind, and our friends.

10 April 2011 at 22:16  
Anonymous MrJ said...

What a tangled web is being woven in the name of law and order. The authorities seemed to be more confused than members of the public.

Would the risk of police conduct of the kind reported be more or less likely if there were elected police chiefs as the Home Secretary has proposed on behalf of the governing party?
Would Ann Barnhardt be suited to the job? But she has made a point of relying on the constitution of the USA to denounce a Senator as a jackass.

Would she so much as be permitted to enter this country, considering the treatment here of Geert Wilders?

10 April 2011 at 22:25  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Followers of Islam actually care their sacred book is desecrated. Christians look away and do nothing.

So there is a threat to public order when Muslims are offended or taunted, not so Christians.

Remember Mary Whitehouse? She was publically vilified for speaking up against the decline in moral standards.

Let's be clear, the burning of the Qur'an by a BNP member was intended to cause offence. Well, I very much doubt it was either to keep warm or an act of art!

10 April 2011 at 22:28  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The video was supposedly taken in September 2010 but nothing was done until he announced his candidacy for the BNP.If that doesn't stink of political persecution, I don't know what does.

Let's be clear: liberty is supposed to be for all, not just the majority.

10 April 2011 at 23:06  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

the ubiquitous, illiberal totalitarianism which denies freedom of expression by negating the right to offend against the supposed sensibilities of minorities.

When the minority in question is in the envious position of being feared by politicians, the state will discover limitless reserves of illiberal totalitarianism in order to appease that minority and force a ‘pluralist and tolerant society’ on the British people.

I understand Your Grace’s desire to reclaim our liberties without offending Muslims but we shall be extremely lucky if the coming clash between East and West is resolved at no greater cost than a few vexed Muslims.

10 April 2011 at 23:41  
Blogger Jim McLean at Acoustic Village said...

Unable to leave any comment on the Daily Mail page...."for legal reasons" WTF

10 April 2011 at 23:52  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Being as arrests have been made , for public order offences , I quite understand the reserved tones that this immediately confers.

Yet somthing is not quite right , Iam sure South wales police thought it all through , but he has burnt a book in his own property (or someone has it is unclear). I love books they are so much more interesting than these e readers , some secondhand books carry hsitory , owned by said professor , signed by author , inscription as being a gift etc.
However if I have paid for a book it is mine to do as I wish with, give it to some else ,put it in box , re bind it or if I wish to dispose of it.

The implication of course is that burning the quoran is an offence , perhaps no one recalls the burning of the satanic verse , for which Salaman rushdie still has a fatwa , in this case Mr Rushdie didnt burn a book but wrote one on islam. Mr Rushdie recieved state protection as a viable death threat was upon him. Yet his right to write and publish a crticism of islam was upheld.

Of course we all aware of the blind hate of cults in some decades , useually mixed in with burning books containing ideas that oppose it , I wouldnt like the society implied in farenhieght 451.

But arrested for burning a book , fisked to see if you have a hate crime recorded . I mean why not arrest wayne rooney for swearing , hang around someone drunk after there teams defeat and see if you can get an arrest for referee hate.

I hate what labour have done to our countries finances , would happily burn there manifesto , claiming I was ridding the world of one less copy of compendium of political lies . Is this a crime ?.

An athiest may seek to do the same with whatever it is offends them.

I rather have the feeling that South wales police , having collared someone holding a burn the quoran view and holding BNP membership , may have assumed they are carrying out there lawfull duties , but could this not infer that the police now can arrest a person for holding a view , which no court has determied ? . Has our highest court found christianity to be the truth ? or Islam for that matter.

I rather think that what must have sounded like a good hate crime lead in the office of south wales police and arrests , perhaps should have been handled differently , for will not the question be now , who it offended and then will not the further question be why it offended , and then the further question of if the police had considered if it was a public order offence , if most of the public were not offended.

perhaps one day someone may ask the police to consider if the quoran , contains passages likely to lead to terrorism .I wonder if that is a public order offence in the offices of the , not overzealous in the slightest , south wales police .

10 April 2011 at 23:54  
Blogger English Pensioner said...

If it is just a video, how do they know that an actual burning took place?
I think that I could make a video of an apparent burning of a Koran without actually doing so. Remember it is no longer true that the camera never lies!

11 April 2011 at 00:12  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

So we're saying it's okay to deliberately wind-up Muslims knowing they'll react violently?

11 April 2011 at 00:57  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Ime impressed two posts on different threads have dissapered .

I think last Dodo , i might re phrase "so are we saying that it acceptable for Muslims to behead people who criticse there religion"

11 April 2011 at 01:17  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

Last Dodo, are you saying it's ok to behave in a cowardly fashion when people use threats of violence and intimidation to get their own way? Are you saying it isn't right to stand up and do the right thing? Are you saying it's alright to blame the victims rather than the criminals? Even Bill Maher ackowledged this:

"There is one religion in the world that kills you when you disagree with them and they say 'look, we are a religion of peace and if you disagree we'll f****** cut your head off." ~ Bill Maher

They have already demonstrated amply that they will use any excuse to kick off. So we appear damned if we do and damned if we don't.

DanJ0 earlier stated he was up for everyone burning a copy of the koran, bible, and the flag. I agree with him, that if they belong to him and he wants to then he can do what he wants with them. I worship a person, not a book. A sacred book to me yes, but a book none the less.

11 April 2011 at 01:35  
Anonymous Dan Stork Banks said...

Dear YG,
Following our brief twitter exchange I thought I would give myself a bit more space on your excellent blog (thanks for all you do btw). I quite agree with you that there appears to be is a discrepancy here. I have been concerned that over the past ten years by attempts at using the public order act to criminalise certain forms of free speech pertaining to religious values. In the past this normally revolved around arresting Christian preachers who have (unwisely in my opinion) preached about how evil they consider homosexuality to be. Whether we agree or disagree, it seems to me there is a right to believe and preach it. John Stuart Mill and Voltaire would have be appalled to see where we are going.

Koran burning appears to be the new issue. Given I am a policeman who has been actively involved in diversity discussions for some time I suspect however that the discrimination against bible burning is not as overt as you think. In fact if you were to burn one online I have no doubt that some over excited and well meaning copper would indeed be breathing down your neck (so I suggest you stick to burning your hand).

I have not looked at this case in detail but I suspect that it is section 5 of the public order act (POA) (religiously aggravated) The offence definition is:

The offence is created by section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986:
"(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he:
(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,
within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby."
So even though the BNP member was in his garage, going online would have made his work public. Whilst technically other people need to hear the abuse, there does not have to be a specifically harrassed person involved for a section.5 offence to be made out, as it is not specifically against an individual (it could be random yelling). Youtube would certainly fit that criteria as many people would watch it. I suspect however that a complaint has been made somewhere, if only by some third sector organisation or some blogger!

The religiously aggravated component would is:

 (a) at the time of committing the offence, or immediately before or after doing so, the offender demonstrates towards the victim of the offence hostility based on the victim's membership (or presumed membership) of a racial or religious group; or
(b) the offence is motivated (wholly or partly) by hostility towards members of a racial or religious group based on their membership of that group.
 "Religious Group" is defined as
"a group of persons defined by reference to religious belief or lack of religious belief." 

Clearly what this utterly stupid member of the BNP did was to publicly conduct an act that was intentionally hostile to a religious group – i.e. Muslims.

The Rac. Agg. Component to this offence was introduced to give further protection to vulnerable communities, making it easier for us the police to charge acts of thuggish racism. The POA itself was for loutish behaviour. However the dividing line between loutish harassment and free speech must be sorted out by my organisation otherwise we will keep being accused of being the thought police by religious groups.

So I am not defending its use. But I hope this gives a bit of clarity as to what might have happened.

I shall put a post on my own blog when I get a bit of time (I am not as frequent as your good-self).

11 April 2011 at 05:44  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Last Dodo.

So if I decide to take offence at your posts, come around your house and slay you and your family - then it's YOUR fault for offending me?

You really don't get it do you.

11 April 2011 at 06:51  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Once upon your own time, not so long ago - the means by which bozos enforced their will had names, Dodo. Intimidation; threat; bullying; strong-arming ... spring to mind.

When that was enforced by illegal laws: we had a name or two for that - only the PC perpetrators have been projecting on those...
So the words have lost some of their power.

Don't you begin to get it, even a little bit?

11 April 2011 at 07:07  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "So we're saying it's okay to deliberately wind-up Muslims knowing they'll react violently?"

It's an interesting one, isn't it? Filming and distributing the burning of a copy of Wind In The Willows probably offends or harrasses or incites no-one. So no problem there I suppose.

Encouraging the defacing of a bible for art is probably challenging the perceptions of a book, arguably a purpose of art, and investigating offence. So it's edgy but not criminal as it stands.

If instead of the bible a
qur'an was used then would it still be acceptable for the purposes of art to do that? Or does the danger of offence moving to public disorder outweigh it?

There's something of the 'shouting fire in a crowded theatre' here as the context must be important for the charge as well as the act itself.

I'd like to know the full details too. If the act was filmed last year and the film was shown very recently to the Observer who took it to the police then I suppose the video has been making the rounds in 'specialist' circles. The story talks of an Observer investigation so perhaps they have undercover reporters somewhere?

11 April 2011 at 07:16  
Blogger robertatforsythe said...

Being married to a librarian, I just wish people would stop abusing print. Period. Fiona's library used to lose a fortune on maliciously damanged books. I have highlighted this post on my Facebook

11 April 2011 at 07:21  
Anonymous BnS aka MrJ said...

Last Dodo et al._Easy to see the AV Etc referedum (5 May) as a choice between one B 'n' S (Bubble and Squeak, Senator L.Graham) and another (Bacon and Spinach, Ann Bernhardt)
(, thanks LoboS above)

...but which is which?

(, thanks LoboS above)

Must be a test case for Prof. Bogdanor and The GOD squad: no brainer.

( : On "...February 16 [2010], the Cabinet Secretary [Sir Augustine Thomas "Gus" O'Donnell, KCB] finalised the proposals for handling a political transition after a hung election at a sandwich lunch with the inner core of favoured academic experts: Hazell, Bogdanor, Peter Hennessy, professor of contemporary British history at Queen Mary, University of London, and Rodney Brazier, professor of constitutional law at Manchester University....")

For Prof. Bogdanor's reputation, see:

11 April 2011 at 07:45  
Anonymous BnS aka MrJ said...

Well, double thanks is better than none.

11 April 2011 at 07:47  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Your Grace

Given the rapid progress in technology, your communicant is compelled to wonder how Muslims would react to a ceremonial deleting of the Koran from a hard drive or a flash drive. Even burning a CD-Rom of the Koran rather lacks the imagery of burning a book.

There is something wonderfully mediaeval about burning books, which possibly resonates with the Muslim mindset, such as it is.

Would it be a criminal offence to publicly delete the Koran from one's hard drive? It seems important to get a definitive answer to this question.

If any other communicant can enlighten me, please do so.

11 April 2011 at 08:04  
Anonymous BnS aka MrJ said...

PS_Spoilt for choice: for spinach see

11 April 2011 at 08:52  
Anonymous MrJ said...

PPS_No.3 should be

11 April 2011 at 08:57  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

'Lobos', serendipity?

On no, WV is 'mumsi', lol!

11 April 2011 at 09:00  
Anonymous malvoisin said...

I notice that you could not resist in using the term odious BNP. Couldn't help yourself eh Cranmer?

Over the years I have seen them called many names eg vile,odious, far-right,nazi,fascist etc, but strangely they have never been called liars, in fact Griffin was tried twice for telling the truth over the rape,drugging and abuse of under age white girls 6-7 years ago, When the three main parties and the police swept it under the carpet so as not to destroy community cohesion.

Last year it was estimated that over 100 under age girls were raped,drugged, beaten etc in Leicester now 60 plus have emerged in Blackpool, as one of the detectives said it is like a tidal wave in all our towns and cities.

I find it strange you use the term odious BNP, yet do not apply the word odious to any of the main parties, after all they have done etc treason,sedition,murder, corruption, allowance of hundreds of girls to be so abused, hundreds of thousands dead in illegal wars, shall I go on or do you get the gist?

I wonder why people like yourself still try and promote any one of the three main parties, by being involved with them you must also agree with what they have done.

11 April 2011 at 09:16  
Blogger Ernst Stavro Blofeld Ambassador to Vedics and other medical professions + Tiddles said...

Non Mouse said 10 April 2011 22:16

"@ JohnnyR - and to think that Bobbies used to be our own kind, and our friends."

Ernsty usually has a good giggle at the conspiracy theories put forward by Atlas Shrugged, unknowingly doing the work of the establishment.

The only conspiracy Ernst has seen with his own eyes and ears is Common Purpose, when hearing court cases, where the court dismisses evidence and covers up collusion between business and politics at the highest level.

You generate many Conspiracy Theories to hide the genuine.

Wake Up Britain!


11 April 2011 at 09:30  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well done to the “odious BNP” man although, personally, I would not spend a penny buying the training manual of the ‘religion of peace’ for any purpose whatsoever. Though, I suppose if my local council run art gallery purchased a copy using my taxes and invited me along to a ‘book signing’ ceremony I might feel compelled to write something.

But, perhaps the gent in question didn’t waste his money either? Maybe, in these austere times he just printed the title page from the internet as a cheap alternative in order to exercise his rights of freedom of expression as enshrined in EU law?

As an aside, isn’t it fascinating that the ‘police’ and media seem to collude to spread these ‘stories’ about the British National Party just prior to elections? There are, it seems, proportional elections – not FPTP or AV – in Wales in May. Could it just be that the cosy status quo are a little worried that the British National Party might gain its first seat in the Welsh Assembly? Just a thought...

11 April 2011 at 09:31  
Blogger Ernst Stavro Blofeld Ambassador to Vedics and other medical professions + Tiddles said...

Dan Stork Banks said 11 April 2011 05:44

So we can take it that if the BNP member had said he was defaming the book in the name of art by daubing it with scrolls and grafitti, then throwing lighter fuel on it, all in the name of art (as Glasgow's Gallery of Modern Art did with the Holy Bible, from an unbiased secularist point of view, of course), then he would not have been arrested.

The Establishment has overdosed on anti-psychosis tablets and strapped themselves in strait jackets, joining us in the the mental asylum they have put us in.



DanJo 11 April 2011 07:16

"Encouraging the defacing of a bible for art is probably challenging the perceptions of a book, arguably a purpose of art, and investigating offence. So it's edgy but not criminal as it stands."


11 April 2011 at 09:44  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Having been led to your article I decided to look at the BNP site.

Very disturbing if all, or even half, of what they say is true.

The timing with elections imminent, collusion with national left wing media, denial of basic rights like phone calls, lies, mistreatment of a disabled woman and denial of medication sounds like somerthing that would happen in Zimbabwe or the old Eastern Block.

That the duty solicitor said "“All the bigwigs are upstairs, and they’re out to hang him (Mr Owens).” is a disgrace. Surely the Police should be independent - not the Storm Troopers of an overmighty State?

That this kind of political intimidation of members of a legally constituted political party can take place in Britain, and under a Tory majority government, is truly frightening.

I know it is a well worn phrase but this truly IS Orwellian.

Will I now "get a knock on the door" for having visited the BNP site? I would not be surprised.

11 April 2011 at 09:53  
Anonymous Voyager said...

Burning books has awful connotations but as Woland says in Bulgakov's masterpiece рукописи не горят

"Manuscripts do not burn"

Where i am confused in the case of The Koran is that Muslims hold there are no valid translations of The Koran from the Arabic and that the Script only exists in Arabic.

So why should they be concerned if lunatics burn Penguin translations ?

11 April 2011 at 09:59  
Anonymous PC Plod said...

Harry-ca-nab 11 April 2011 09:53

Morning Sir.

We have reason to believe that at approx 9.45am on 11/4/2011, you visited the bnp website.

As this is illegal under the local entrapment act 1989 sect 12 paragraph 17, we intend to pay you a visit shortly to see if you have have items that could be construed as inflamatory such as Union Jacks or St George flags and books by non liberal types.

Your IP address has been noted and will be followed up.

This does not affect your basic human rights Sir.

PC Plod badge 666

11 April 2011 at 10:01  
OpenID Paul Dean said...

Your grace,

His Grace understands that theological point. But Muslims are at liberty to deny the divinity of Christ, and to do so publicly.

But the equivalent would not be to deny his divinity, but to set fire to him! Or, say, humiliating and beating him. I think it's good to acknowledge that burning a bible is not as upsetting to a Christian as burning a Qur'an is to a Muslim.

I wonder if it is pertinent how much it disturbs and pains me to hear the name of Christ casually used as a curse. That might be more of an equivalent.

"And how is distributing film footage of a burning Qur'an in any sense different from the image published above?"

If you had taken performed the act, taken the photo and published it then I agree it would be the same. Note I don't think it should be a crime either; I just want to be clear.

11 April 2011 at 10:05  
Anonymous BnS aka MrJ said...

malvoisin, 09:16 " use the term odious BNP, yet do not apply the word odious to any of the main parties, after all they have done etc .."

Hoping that Blogmaster Cranmer will clarify, but meantime, seeing this as a good question for a google search results so far suggest that "odious" applied to BNP has been a usage of fragrant Melanie to name but one. See also cuddly Rod in Spectator January 01, 2005 (Liddle, Rod).

Did I hear a dogwhistle? --said to have originated in Australia in 1990's.

11 April 2011 at 10:10  
Anonymous graham wood said...

As Anne Barnhardt so eloquently put it when burning her copy of the Koran, it is NOT a "holy" book - only the Christian scriptures occupy that exalted status.
Holy, because its subject and author is holy beyond any ceoncept of men or their writings.

As Anne says as the pages burn it is merely paper, leather and ink - but the symbolism is all important.

To criminalise such as an act, as other point out, on your own private property is political repression reminiscent of the Nazis.

For those who have not viewed Anne Barnhardt's two videos of her symbolic burning of the Koran - see:,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c875dd2b8adea15a

11 April 2011 at 10:13  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Dear PC Plod.

Come around here and I'll knock your hat off.

If, however, you can get one of your many diversity officers to drop around a free copy of the Koran (for my enlightenment and dhimmification of course) I would be happy to accept it.

Meanwhile, upon reading the Guardian, I transpires that not only did Mr Owens burn a Koran but , HORROR OF HORRORS, he kept it in a biscuit tin !!!

Surely there must be something in the "Holy Text" condemning him to death for that - esp. if the biscuits weren't halal.

11 April 2011 at 10:31  
Blogger Maturecheese said...

Whether you agree with the BNP or not, this kind of state control is absolutely wrong and even more so when it favours a religion/Political system that is alien to most of us.

I haven't heard anything about Ann Barnhardt being arrested in the good old US of A and yet she made a far more courageous stance with her burning of the Koran in the way she pointed out it's incompatibilities with Western freedoms.

I think this shows us how far down the road to totalitarianism we have gone and the implications of that.

11 April 2011 at 10:36  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Poppy burner was fined a mere £50. Contrast this with the heavy-handed approach of the South Wales Police and the fact that Sion Owens has already been kept in custody. One law for them?

11 April 2011 at 10:37  
Blogger Maturecheese said...

Vote for the BNP in the coming election as a protest.

As has already been pointed out, the timing of this arret and the publicity is suspect. For that reason I will vote BNP in the coming election whereas I was going to vote another way. This is the way to stick two fingers up to the corrupt establishment.

11 April 2011 at 10:56  
Anonymous Gordo said...

So the police find intolerance unacceptable. They obviously find drug dealing acceptable because they do sod all about that.

Yes, vote BNP. While you still can.

11 April 2011 at 11:02  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Anonymous @ 10.37

Quite right. Its called Sharia Law and it is being imposed by British Bobbies.

Muslims have rights over and above non-muslims.

Poppy burning, bible /church burnings, flag burning, spitting upon British soldiers, hate speech and so on are all either ignored or given ridiculously light fines or dismissals.

Lets not forget - across the world Muslims persecute non-muslims with abandon. Our government has just given £680,000,000 (and the rest!) to Pakistan where the Christian community is persecuted, becoming a Christian is punishable by death etc. and yet does not condemn it let alone cease aid./impose sanctions.

That is tantamount to approval.

Where is Shami Chakrabati? The Archbish' of Canterbury? Cameron, Blair, Brown, Miliband on these issues.

Burn a Koran ad face the full force of The State. Burn a Bible or a Poppy and insult ALL of us and our War dead and what - a £50 fine.

Will we EVER stand up against this? I doubt it.

Our Establishment is now completely Dhimmified.

We are on our own.

11 April 2011 at 11:05  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...


Lord knows what's prompted that now other than your being a pointless buffoon ... as usual.

11 April 2011 at 11:19  
Anonymous BnS aka MrJ said...

The finer points in the discussion about the entity being burnt (regardless of ownership or motivation) in respect of:

a book of any kind,

a special kind of book such as one claimed to be of Holy Scripture or Holy Writ,

an electronic version of the same,

and the punishment justly due under law (secular, ecclesiastical, sharia) or mob rule or incitement or provocation,

is a reminder of the formal disputation about "transubstantion" (effectively a show trial) in which Archbishop Cranmer was required to take part in the reign of Queen Mary, which resulted (as evryone knows) in his condemnation to be burnt at the stake in Broad Street, Oxford opposite Balliol College where the spot is marked in the roadway.

For a transcript of the dispute see:

11 April 2011 at 11:21  
Anonymous BnS aka MrJ said...

(typo) "transubstantiation" (as if you needed to be told)

11 April 2011 at 11:29  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

Considering how many people eat beef we're fortunate in that the Hindu's don't run riot all the time too.

11 April 2011 at 11:43  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re: the 'I am the odious Spartacus' moment.

True enough, but problematic. Specifically, the natural order of genuine allies, in troubled deep waters, is civility.

Additionally, that crumbling, collapsing house over there, is it any wonder - when the main supporting walls have been divided, all this time?

It's a case of..... corner....paint....oh dear!....

Essentially, you people are indirectly tarring yourselves in the process as well, which delays the pivotal 'moment'.... indefinitely..... much to our enemies delight.

It's self defeating.

I'm not suggesting lavish praise or anything like it, but the problem outlined, will only lead to endless Marxist victories, of the type we are all now, very, very familiar with.

11 April 2011 at 11:45  
Blogger English Viking said...

Why is it OK o burn Churches, flags, even your own daughter if she 'dresses' immodestly, but burning a book is a capital offence?

To paraphrase one of your erstwhile mates, Your Grace.

'Be of good comfort, Your Grace, and play the man! We shall this day light such a candle, by God's grace, in England, as I trust shall never be put out.'

Go on, light on up!

11 April 2011 at 11:56  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

I agree with Dan Stork Banks. Unfortunately he spoils his analyis by stating:

'to publicly conduct an act that was intentionally hostile to a religious group'.

Intention and motivation are not required. A demonstration of hostility is all that is needed.

11 April 2011 at 12:04  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If Sion Owens did this,he's a bit silly.
Tokenism is daft.

If convicted,however,he can comfort himself with the foreknowledge that he will be fined a mere fifty pounds.
How do we know this ? Because that's how much Muslim poppy-burner Emdadur Choudhury was fined.
And the even hand of the law would not apply different penalties for similar crimes - would it ?

Marcus Foxall

11 April 2011 at 12:09  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

David Cameron may have declared multiculturalism dead but we remain, according to the Home Office statement, a ‘pluralist’ society. The Accept Pluralism project, funded by the European Union, produces a Tolerance Indicators’ Toolkit ‘where qualitative and quantitative indicators may be used to score each country’s performance on tolerating cultural diversity’. Its Objective & Mission statement is equally beyond parody.

11 April 2011 at 12:15  
Blogger Smoking Hot said...

l had a pdf of the Quran but l destroyed it usuing the PGP shredder.

lf l put up a youtube vid of the my desktop screen showing the pdf Quran being dragged into the shredder ... am l also commiting an offence?

11 April 2011 at 12:22  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Still think the motives of this guy are not being given due consideration in all this quasi anti Muslim hysteria.

Yes, Islamatists are fanatics looking for any reason to wipe up religious hatred. Yes, Islam as a belief system is ungodly. Yes, Muslims can be manipulated by their leaders.


Why would a BNP thug want to burn the Qur'an in his garage and publish a film of it. Art?


Is there no way to build bridges with the Muslim communities? Just kick them out of the country and have a monolithic christian only culture?

A rally by Jews on Good Friday denying the divinity of Christ and mocking Christianity by burning a cross might be seen as incitement of a sort in this luke warm 'christian' culture of ours. Would anyone care? Would the Police take action?

11 April 2011 at 12:30  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

I'm not in the 'lets all join hands and sing kumbaya' camp, preferring to be a little more realistic.

Is there no way to build bridges with the Muslim communities?

No. They have demonstrated this in every single country they have populated, and then overrun, over the centuries and right up until today. Every other culture that has tried to just get along with them has ended up in the grave, or very nearly so.

If the Jewish community wanted to do that then, again, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I might not like it, but I'd let them be. But I also know they wouldn't do that, simply because they are not like that.

11 April 2011 at 12:42  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Is there no way to build bridges with the Muslim communities? Just kick them out of the country and have a monolithic christian only culture?"

No thanks! If we're to start 'deporting' British people because of their chosen religion then let's not do things by halves.

11 April 2011 at 13:03  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Last Dodo, 12:30_

1) "Why would a BNP thug..." If the case is sub judice, that is prejudicial. Even if not, is it a) warranted? b)relevant to the points at issue here?

2) "Is there no way to build bridges with the Muslim communities?" The issue is that there is more than enough evidence for law-abiding and peace-loving citizens (of any faith or denomination or none) to be aware that there are among us and abroad persons who are openly and covertly bent on opposing bridge-building and destroying such as are undertaken, promoting extreme violence in that cause.

3) "A rally by Jews on Good Friday denying the divinity of Christ and mocking Christianity by burning a cross..." That would in fact be a version of the events in respect of which Good Friday is a solemn day for churchgoing Christians, and could well be considered an episode in a Passion Play.

11 April 2011 at 13:06  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The South Wales plods have let the BNP man go: insufficient evidence to proceed.

Of course, in the meantime the did him over, ransacked his house, terrorised his disabled wife and chucked him in the slammer.

I will never vote BNP; they are odious. But are the actions of the South Wales Constabulary any the less odious?

11 April 2011 at 13:09  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Let's not make this character a hero of British freedom of expression. He isn't. And, frankly, he deserved all he got from the Police. Might make him think twice about stirring up religious hatred in future, although I doubt it given the apparent support he's getting here.

MrJ said...
"Last Dodo, 12:30
"A rally by Jews on Good Friday denying the divinity of Christ and mocking Christianity by burning a cross..." That would in fact be a version of the events in respect of which Good Friday is a solemn day for churchgoing Christians, and could well be considered an episode in a Passion Play."

Really? Okay then, let's make it Muslims or Hindus who do it. Any harm now?

11 April 2011 at 13:29  
Anonymous Gordo said...

Oh and apparently he was arrested six months after the supposed offence, but only four days after announcing his candidature for public office.

Odious? I have my own ideas whose behaviour is odious here. Thugs? yes there were thugs involved in this episode!

11 April 2011 at 13:31  
Blogger D. Singh said...

‘Is there no way to build bridges with the Muslim communities?’

Of course there is.

But first you have to discover:

a) Why the extreme right arose; and
b) Then why mili. Mus arose.

Both are products of atheist Left-liberal thinking.

The Brit.Nat.Pty and the Mus. have far more in common spiritually. They demonstrated this during WW II.

One begins at the replacement sociology level; the other at replacement theology level.

The first condition for their arising has to be the receding of Judaeo-Christianity.

Nature abhors a vacuum.

Both in their respective ways attempt to answer: where we have come from; who we are and where are we going.

11 April 2011 at 13:31  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

"Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya"

11 April 2011 at 13:38  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ The Last Dodo (12:30)—Why would a BNP thug want to burn the Qur’an in his garage and publish a film of it. Art?

The apostate from Islam, Wafa Sultan, writes in A God Who Hates: ‘A simple analysis of the reality in which Muslims live suffices to reveal the sterility of Islamic teachings. These teachings have failed to create steadfast, productive, and creative human beings. In the Arab world the clock has stopped, and the calendar is still set at the seventh century CE.’

The ‘BNP thug’, not wishing his country to proceed further down the Islamic path, chose to stand his ground and defy Islam by destroying a copy of its sterile teachings.

11 April 2011 at 13:44  
Anonymous Oswin said...

I do not agree with book-burning.

There are far more useful purposes for unwanted books ... loose-leafed, as it were!

Although, I would not wish to see the video of it happening ...

11 April 2011 at 14:13  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

D. Singh said...

"The Brit.Nat.Pty and the Mus. have far more in common spiritually. They demonstrated this during WW II."

er.....1939 - 1945, yes?

BNP created in 1982, yes?

Maths isn't your strong point, no?

You cannot provide one shred of concrete evidence that Nazim and the BNP hve any similar policies.


But you can dish out your puerile, endless, sneers and smears, yes?

Not that you're echoing New Labour in anyway at all, you're a clever,intelligent 'thinking man' that moves around the intellectual arena using nought but....evidence, huh?

I repeat, NOT ONE!

Do know what the word even means?

If you can do no more than 'clever' snide smears, it's time to buy a mirror.

11 April 2011 at 14:15  
Anonymous Oswin said...

If you want to know the time, ask a policeman ... hang-on, I'll save you the bother: it's half past almost too late!

11 April 2011 at 14:45  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It looks like the police are really gunning for this man, hoping to make a charge of inciting racial or religious hatred stick. This is a very serious matter carrying not a fine but a maximum sentence of seven years in prison.

Typically for the police and CPS they've mishandled the situation. Such a charge requires the consent of the Attorney General but they hadn't applied for such consent before laying the charges. So the CPS withdrew the charges in court this morning but warned that further charges would probably follow.

Over to Dominic Grieve Q.C. It is to be be hoped that he hasn't been too infected by all his recent work on "diversity" to see that there are some fundamental rights at stake here.

If it does go to trial what decent British jury would convict, when they hear the history of the police handling of this case?


11 April 2011 at 14:52  
Anonymous BnS aka MrJ said...

Last Dodo, 13:29

1)"...he deserved all he got from the Police.."_Can you not see that this remark must seem quite bizarre to a simple law-abiding and peace-loving person (especially a church-going Christian for whom Good Friday is one of the most solemn days in the calendar), and wholly contrary to what it is in this country's laws, customs, practices, habits, social norms (by whatever name) for which it was or claimed to be renowned ?

2)"...let's make it Muslims or Hindus who do it..." Why resort to this or any other sort of sophistry?

11 April 2011 at 14:55  
Anonymous BnS aka MrJ said...

Backtracking to the main blog: "'I am Spartacus' moment" ? What is being blogged elsewhere suggests that England (sic) is approaching a Jack Cade moment.

11 April 2011 at 15:02  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Anonymous: "So the CPS withdrew the charges in court this morning but warned that further charges would probably follow."

I wonder if they've taken his computer away for analysis.

11 April 2011 at 15:31  
Anonymous Anon 2 said...

Anon @ 14:15 adopts the most foreign-sounding phraseology!

Presumably that's the lefy-lib'rul bias. They're about destroying the language as well as everything else.

11 April 2011 at 15:32  
Blogger English Viking said...


You're making the mistake of thinking all religions equal, when they quite clearly are not.

11 April 2011 at 15:37  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Johnny Rottenborough said...
"The ‘BNP thug’, not wishing his country to proceed further down the Islamic path, chose to stand his ground and defy Islam by destroying a copy of its sterile teachings."

LOL! We're in safe hands then come the uprising!

English Viking said...
You're making the mistake of thinking all religions equal, when they quite clearly are not."

Not at all. Christianity is the one, true religion and it will prevail - Christ promised it would be so. Islam, in my opinion, is perverted and corrupt conceived in the mind of a probable madman.

But, there's still no need to provoke the deluded followers of Islam.

BnS aka MrJ - it's not sophistry at all to try and make a comparison that might affect the sensibilities of Christians.

11 April 2011 at 16:06  
Anonymous Old Grumpy said...

Could we perhaps try a simple scientific experiment as follows:

His Grace trots across to his garage, sets up the video stuff, and burns a copy of the bible.

He then posts it onto You Tube, making sure to notify the national press in the process. As His Grace is a well-known person in press circles, it;s highly likely that this would be picked up by the national media.

Question: Will the Home Office condemn his actions? Will he be arrested?

I strongly suspect No in both cases, because the crime of Offence is only applicable to Muslims in this country. Or, at least, that is how the state sees it.

As His Grace has said, where's the arrest been for the desecrated bible on display in Scotland? Where's the Home Office outraged condemnation?

Double standards, as always. And yet the Muzzies are always saying about how badly they're treated. Methinks they doth protest too much.

Over to you, Your Grace (Or anyone else who fancies taking a swing at the etablishment's apalling duplicity without very much risk)

11 April 2011 at 16:09  
Anonymous Paul said...

I do not advocate burning any holy book or any book for that matter. That being said there is a double standard here. Why is the Koran anymore precious than a Bible or the Bhagavad Gita ? Respect and tolerance should work both ways-not just the Muslim way.

And a man has the right to burn a book in his own home if he chooses to do so. You British should take stock of your religious liberty and efforts from within to diminish them !

11 April 2011 at 16:17  
Anonymous berserker-nkl said...

One rule for them... Remember the hook handed cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri who was eventually turfed out of the FInsbury Park Mosque and preached in the streets. The police did nothing. Just supposing a BNP wallah was spouting forth on those Finsbury Park highways and byways... Would the police have moved him on? We know the answer.

11 April 2011 at 16:20  
Anonymous MrJ said...

There is no need to teach a dodo to suck eggs. But just for the record:

One source defines sophistry as 1.a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning. 2. a false argument; sophism.

and interestingly gives the origin as "1300–50; Middle English sophistrie < Middle French, equivalent to sophistre". [It was certainly in use at the time when Archbishop Cranmer was condemned.]

or from another source: 1. (Philosophy)
a. a method of argument that is seemingly plausible though actually invalid and misleading.
b. the art of using such arguments.
2. subtle but unsound or fallacious reasoning.

11 April 2011 at 16:22  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 2 said...

"Anon @ 14:15 adopts the most foreign-sounding phraseology!

Presumably that's the lefy-lib'rul bias."

The phraseology may sound foreign to you, but it's the content and final score that count.

You might not have noticed it - being an English teacher and all that - but our learned Mr Singh, has so far failed to provide one concrete shred of evidence, to back up his comparison wth the BNP and Nazism.

I suspect he's toying with the lefty media generated 'forced re-patriation' myth.

Such a policy would be thourghly illegal, and would (rightly) bounce the BNP into court faster than EHRC could scream racist (which is very fast). This has not happened, because no such policy exists, in the real world.

Freedom of expression allows the individual to express themselves....freely,no?

Have a nice day now....


(Annoyed @ 14:15)

11 April 2011 at 16:41  
Anonymous Dan Stork Banks said...

Actually it is based on motivation and ego intention as the act shows:

(b) the offence is motivated (wholly or partly) by hostility towards members of a racial or religious group based on their membership of that group.

It could not be aggravated otherwise.

11 April 2011 at 16:49  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

"Remember the hook handed cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri who was eventually turfed out of the FInsbury Park Mosque and preached in the streets. The police did nothing."

And didn't they arrest a man who complained about the preaching, or am I thinking of another but similar situation?

11 April 2011 at 17:02  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Viking: "You're making the mistake of thinking all religions equal, when they quite clearly are not."

That's depends on the criteria. If the criterion is "Is this actually true?" then they're all probably equal.

At least if one is just a godless heathen like me or Blofeld then one is not nailing one's colours to the mast on that front.

11 April 2011 at 17:25  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ The Last Dodo (16:06)—Christianity is the one, true religion and it will prevail

Christians in Arabia and North Africa would have chanted a similar mantra in the belief that it would halt the spread of Islam. It didn’t.

11 April 2011 at 17:38  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

Γρηγορεῖτε, στήκετε ἐν τῇ πίστει, ἀνδρίζεσθε, κραταιοῦσθε·

11 April 2011 at 17:48  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Could LoboS's Greek be otherwise known as 1 Corinthians 16:13?

11 April 2011 at 18:24  
Anonymous Oswin said...

L'Spoon: bugger me, we've done Anglo-Saxon and now we're on to Greek!

How about some Gaelic?(No need to accompany yourself on the bagpipes though!) :o)

11 April 2011 at 18:33  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

I preferred the Greek as it more essentially tells men to behave like men, lol.

11 April 2011 at 18:38  
Anonymous non mouse said...

I wish I'd had that chance to take Greek!

Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, do manfully, and be strengthened.

11 April 2011 at 18:43  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

And I don't know any Gaelic Oswin, but if it's anything like Welsh :S I'd rather not learn any either, what with needing plentiful supplies of tissues to clean up after all the gutteral sounds.

Some English to Welsh words(works better if you say them out loud):

Telephone - Telefoon
Hospital - Ysbyty
Castle - Castell
Ceramic - Ceramig
Dance - Dawns
Item - Eitem
Wagon - Wagen
Umbrella - Ymbarel
Balcony - Balconi
Rugby - Rygbi
School - Ysgol
Englishman - Filthy dirty f****** bas**** English**** bas****

I don't speak Welsh, but I lived amongst them for a while some years ago and they weren't all that friendly.

11 April 2011 at 19:01  
Blogger English Viking said...


Even if they are all false (I assume you realise that I don't think they are?) they are still not equal.

His Grace's post proves that point admirably.

11 April 2011 at 19:13  
Blogger hellosnackbar said...

Mockery of Islam is a powerful werapon in convincing Mohammedans that their terror manual is ordained by imaginary Allah.
Some time ago an interview took place in which Rory Bremner hinted that poking fun at Mohammedans would be easy;but he had to consider the safety of his wife,family, and himself.
Pity Dave Allen's no longer around.
The proposed prosecution reminds me of the attempt by a Chief Constable to prosecute "Under cover Mosque".
This resulted in the police
paying damages to Ch4 for spurious prosecution.
Maybe that's what this boy has in mind?

11 April 2011 at 19:38  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Released without charge. What a surprise. South Wales Common Purpose goons acting way outside their authority just as they've been trained to do. Now they are busy trying to stitch him up some other way to save face. Pathetic politicised police farce.

11 April 2011 at 20:05  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

Apparently another koran burning, but this time in Iran by some ex muslims. I wonder if this will prompt more rages and protests again? Probably not, as it wasn't Westerners doing it.

Koran burned in Iran

11 April 2011 at 20:13  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

snackbar: "Mockery of Islam is a powerful werapon in convincing Mohammedans that their terror manual is ordained by imaginary Allah."

To be fair, it's been said here many times that persecution of Christians is to be cherished as some sort of prophecy (I paraphrase). That's what successful religions do: turn stuff which might normally deter people into some sort of validation of the religion itself.

11 April 2011 at 20:32  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Johnny Rottenborough said...

"Christians in Arabia and North Africa would have chanted a similar mantra in the belief that it would halt the spread of Islam. It didn’t."

I've clearly more faith in the words of Christ! Islam was stopped in Europe. The challenge facing Christianity isn't from another religion.

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
Matt 16:18

11 April 2011 at 20:33  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ The Last Dodo (20:33)—Islam was stopped in Europe…

…by force of arms, not by mantra chanting. Christian peace and love haven't a hope against the Religion of Peace™.

11 April 2011 at 20:43  
Anonymous berserker-nkl said...

In France, the division between the civil state and religion was a product of the French Revolution and enshrined in law during the 1880's Third Republic.

There is no official religion in France. Schools must jealously guard their freedom from religious influence. After all, the French Revolution was not just about the arrogant aristocracy but also about empowering the ordinary man from the straight jacket and pernicious influence of the Church.

Thirty years to go? before a chic little number's stroll down Knightsbridge way to Harrods will get stares and spit and all things not nice!

11 April 2011 at 21:38  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Johnny Rottenborough said...
"@ The Last Dodo (20:33)—Islam was stopped in Europe…

…by force of arms, not by mantra chanting. Christian peace and love haven't a hope against the Religion of Peace."

Different times surely ...? And different means needed today.

11 April 2011 at 22:29  
Anonymous non mouse said...

The Last Dodo - whatever makes you think that (in)human nature has changed? Have you never read Chaucer or Shakespeare? Or their contemporaries?

Giving the devils more toys to play with doesn't mean that the seven deadlies have slouched off in defeat. Quite the opposite, if anything.

11 April 2011 at 23:05  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Mr Dodo @ 20.33 said 'The challenge facing Christianity isn't from another religion.'

Where have you been? Islamification is everywhere in the UK, in the demographic, in the customs and demands of Islam, in the built environment, it is very pervasive. Islam has successfully eradicated Christianity everywhere it has taken root. The early church had five great patriarchates, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople and Rome. Of these only Rome remains in a land with a Christian majority. What does that tell you?

Your remarks suggest a dangerous naivety, or possibly ignorance.

12 April 2011 at 00:04  
Anonymous Oswin said...

bluedog/non-mouse : you can lead a horse to water .... etc.

12 April 2011 at 01:16  
Anonymous Oswin said...

L'Spoon @19:01 :

Gordon Bemnnet! Now he's having a go at my dear old Welsh Mama! I'll have you know she seldom ever spat on me; the very thought!


'Englishman' is Sais or Seix (several variants) which they intend as a great insult. As such, I've always regarded it as a bit of a compliment.

Mar sin leibh an drasda ...that's Grandmama signing off, she's a Gael. She didn't spit either! :o)

non-mouse : you surprise me; I'd thought you'd have ticked him off re' his preference for Greek men, than for honest Angles and Saxons!

12 April 2011 at 01:49  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Are you sure he said he preferred Greeks to our lot? I thought he was rather good at OE, myself:)
Stilnes, then. Stilnes.

12 April 2011 at 03:32  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

Oh fie my dear Oswin, would I abandon my lineage for a mess of potage? lol

Non Mouse is absolutely correct, I did not express preferment for Greek men (perish the thought, especially considering what they got up to in the night, lol). Simply that the Greek verse was better in its original rather than the wishy-washy effeminate way Christian men are encouraged to be today.

Hige sceal þe heardra,
heorte þe cenre,
mod sceal þe mare,
þe ure mægen lytlað

And who is Gordon Bemnnet?

12 April 2011 at 05:01  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I contacted the Home Office yesterday and Spoke to Andrew Bell.

I put the following to him in writting:

YouTube has many examples of UK citizens burning Bibles, these have been there for several years, I am unaware of any arrests in relation to this - why the double standard?

No reply yet - and I'm not holding my breath.

It's a policy of expediency and appeasement.

12 April 2011 at 08:46  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Anonymous: "YouTube has many examples of UK citizens burning Bibles, these have been there for several years, I am unaware of any arrests in relation to this - why the double standard?"

It's certainly worthy of pursuit, I'd say.

But are those youtube videos likely to cause public order issues? Isn't that the underlying point in all this?

12 April 2011 at 09:00  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


So you are saying that freedom of expression is fine as long as it doesn't offend... because if it offends, the muslims will riot.

And so freedom of expression for the rest of us is dictated by religious sensibilities of a few.

thats just not on.

12 April 2011 at 09:15  
Anonymous Voyager said...

But are those youtube videos likely to cause public order issues?

Read The Public Order Act 1986 and its amendments to discover the definition of "a public place"

12 April 2011 at 09:41  
Anonymous Voyager said...

why the double standard?

Because the CPS has not been instructed to focus on that type of incident.

You need to recall we have a Centralised Prospection Service thanks to Thatcher instead of elected Regional Prosecutors.

It is also amazing what dross appears in Court for the CPS who often cannot raise staff and send in local Solicitors badly briefed. Judges are so indulgent of sloppy drafting and third-rate BS from the CPS....stuff that should not get out of the filing cabinet.

The standard of judicial preparation is pitiful

12 April 2011 at 09:44  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"So you are saying that freedom of expression is fine as long as it doesn't offend... because if it offends, the muslims will riot."

I'm not really saying anything there, I'm trying to see on what basis the police thought they could charge. It's an interesting one. For instance, if one were at the front of crowd of Muslims and one set fire to a copy of the book then is that just freedom of expression or blameworthy behaviour likely to cause a riot?

There's a feel of political expediency here for me, and I don't mean over the election of a particular numpty or not. We've seen what happened to the UN people in Afghanistan when news reached them of the actions of Pastor Jones's sidekick. I suppose the State here is very keen not to be caught up in anything like that. I'm not saying that is right or sensible of course.

I'm an atheist. As far as I am concerned religion has no special place here other than as a part of some people's identity. I resented religionists making a fuss over The Life of Brian, the play in Birmingham, the Bible-defacing art, the bus campaign, and so on. It's mere offence as far as I'm concerned.

I've argued in the past that we should, collectively, make a stand and burn stuff, draw cartoons, write offensive stuff, and so on. This should be a public assertion of freedom in a published context. People will probably die, yes, but we need to stand shoulder to shoulder. Some principles are core. What are we otherwise?

12 April 2011 at 10:43  
Anonymous Oswin said...

L'Spoon : 05:01 :

My apologies; perhaps I had DanJo in mind? :o)

Hang about a bit, yourself @ 18:38 ... you DID say it! Tut, must now apologise to DanJo!

Scrag him non-mouse, have at him!

12 April 2011 at 13:16  
Blogger LobotomySpoon82 said...

No Oswin, I said THE Greek, meaning the Greek words in the quote in question, as opposed to the less forceful way it generally tends to get translated into English these days, lol.

12 April 2011 at 13:45  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Voyager: "Read The Public Order Act 1986 and its amendments to discover the definition of "a public place""

Do you know under what section or sections he was originally charged? That's a proper question as I don't.

Might it be Section 29G of the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 i.e Section IIIA of the Public Order Act 1986?

12 April 2011 at 14:41  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ DanJ0 (14:41)—This article, concerning the arrest of an EDL leader ‘on suspicion of intentionally causing religiously aggravated harassment, alarm or distress’, may be helpful.
Part 1 is here and part 2 is here.

12 April 2011 at 14:52  
Anonymous Oswin said...

L'Spoon : Pfft! Why didn't you say so in the first place?!?

... it's all Greek to me ... :o)

12 April 2011 at 16:00  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

Well Non Mouse understood me, lol!

12 April 2011 at 16:12  
Anonymous Oswin said...

That's because she's a charming lady who prefers, wherever possible, not to offend ... comes from not imbibing whisky and guzzling rice! Boom-boom!

12 April 2011 at 16:31  
Anonymous Oswin said...

er - shouldn't that read 'Lo-Spo' ?

12 April 2011 at 16:33  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

I think it's too much BEER that has caused you to get a touch confused Oswin, lol. ;)

Ah rice, yes, I eat it every day. In fact, Budweiser is made from rice as well so I like that too!

But I chose LoBoS (LoBotomySpoon)as it was created by Mr J and I liked it, due to it being serendipitous to me.

12 April 2011 at 16:44  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

It also makes it a LOT easier for people to write my name out, lol.

12 April 2011 at 16:52  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

Hey just a darn minute! Are you saying I can be rude? Well it isn't me that His Grace ever has 'words' with is it?

In fact, he never ever says anything to me at all and I have been working on a theory about that. He only ever says things to people that he disagrees with, therefore it must mean that he always agrees with everything I say, but never says so as he must appear impartial ;)

12 April 2011 at 17:13  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Or he's very, very, very busy.

12 April 2011 at 17:14  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Dear LobSpot, His Grace is a man of great discernment, humour and wisdom. Doubtless life has taught him not to hurl himself against every rock amongst the surf ...

(damn, had you not been related to moi, I might have written 'serf'!)

Anyhows, it that's counter-intuitive thing again. His Grace purposely errs against his otherwise natural preferment. It just wouldn't do to show favouritism! (hee hee, sniggers...)

12 April 2011 at 17:27  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...


12 April 2011 at 17:36  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

"This article, concerning the arrest of an EDL leader ‘on suspicion of intentionally causing religiously aggravated harassment, alarm or distress’, may be helpful."

I'm not sure it is to be honest. I've read the content of Mr G Singh's speech and when delivered by megaphone in the street in front of a large crowd I'm not surprised the police were interested. Had I been a Muslim walking by then I think I'd have been rather scared. Mr G Singh is clearly a charming man and no doubt much in demand for dinner parties and the like by the look of it.

Distributing a film of a qur'an burning session to like-minded people, if that is what happened, is a different order of thing I would have said. Not least because it is hardly like 'shouting fire in a crowded theatre' and it is hard to see how even watching it might inspire hatred where none existed before. Nevertheless, I'm thinking the 2006 Act might add an offence to the 1986 Act with which a suitably minded police force might hassle him.

12 April 2011 at 18:00  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

By the way, I see 'Islamophobia Watch' in its comment about the charges being dropped complains about the double standards of the right wing press when they complained about the small size of the £50 poppy-burning fine but did not hit the roof about G Singh getting off. :)

12 April 2011 at 18:52  
Anonymous ot said...

In the United States, a gay "artist" took a crucifix, turned it upside down and plunged it into a jar of urine. Critics hailed the "artist" as a visionary, and reviews included the words, "bold", "able to think outside the box",and "courageous."
Another "artist" ripped pages from the Bible, stuffed them into a toilet, and shat upon the pages. Again reviews praised the "artist" as "courageous", "bold", "a fresh new voice", etc... A few people complained about the alleged "art" but there was no censorship and the "exhibits" went on without injury, death, governmental or police interference. A pastor in Florida decides to burn an old paperback copy of the Quran and innocent people more than 7,700 miles away from Florida are beheaded, disemboweled, and slaughtered. American officials and the main stream media universally condemn the PASTOR calling him "racist" (Islam is an ideology not a race), a bigot, a "xenophobe", a "Tea Party'er", and a "Republican", NEVER once condemning the horrific violence. Political correctness is killing free speech around the globe. No one dares question Islam for fear of being branded an "Islamaphobe" or a "racist" (again there is no Muslim race, there are many of blond blue eyed Muslims around the world). People everywhere need to band together and protest this clamp down on freedom of speech and freedom of expression. Our freedoms are being steadily eroded, slowly but surely, in favor of a violent, repressive, misogynistic, murderous ideology named Islam. Pacifism in the face of tyranny is cowardice! Western civilization as we know it is under attack, and we are losing.

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

"Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Winston Churchill

"Whenever a separation is made between liberty and justice, neither, in my opinion, is safe".
"The concessions of the weak are the concessions of fear".
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
Edmund Burke

13 April 2011 at 18:23  
Anonymous Oswin said...

ot - interesting post!

13 April 2011 at 18:30  
Anonymous MrJ said...

ot_yes... and did you know Ann Bernhardt's video Pts 1 and 2 has reached us. She is able to rely on US constitution to protect citizen's rights, but she has the guts to do it her way without reservation. This could be putting a flame to a fuse.

13 April 2011 at 18:52  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

Nice one ot, well put.

She has a website too Mr J: Bernhardt

And I just spent a few minutes perusing Cranmer's Curate's blog where an article is mentioned about a policeman's despair at the current state of the UK police force. Interesting that all those that foisted the 'social-engineering' projects and 'political correctness' crap on us (despite the warnings they were given and which has led to such degradation of our society and community) are the same ones (left-wing liberals) that keep trying to convince us that we are freer than ever before and the Islamist threat and our loss of freedoms exists in nowhere but our imaginations.

13 April 2011 at 19:05  
Anonymous ot said...

Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.
Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a cover for all of the other components.
Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.
When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well.
Here's how it works:
As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:
United States -- Muslim 0.6%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1.8%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%
At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:
Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%
From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:
France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%
At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.
When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris , we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam, with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 15%
After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:
Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%
At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:
Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%
From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:
Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%
After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:
Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%
Islam is not a religion. It is a political, national ideology, and when Islam is not fighting the infidels, they fight with one another to satisy their bloodlust.

13 April 2011 at 19:08  
Blogger LoBoS aka LobotomySpoon82 said...

Douglas Murray of the Centre for Social Cohesion is also worth searching for on Youtube.

13 April 2011 at 19:14  
Anonymous MrJ said...

LoBos_Yes, thanks for those three connections.

1) How to describe Ann Barnhardt--a lesson in anger management? There seems to be a back history there about the fitness of Barak Obama to be President. Makes a change from dear old Garrison Keillor and Lake Wobegon.

2) Cranmer's Curate links to his parish (CoE) website
and thence to
which has a page with this opening statement

"The first point of the Christian message is that God is in charge of the world. He is the ruler, the supreme president, the king. Unlike human rulers, however, God always does what is best for his subjects. He is the kind of king you’d like to be ruled by...." and on the next page "The sad truth is that, from the very beginning, men and women everywhere have rejected God by doing things their own way...."

He seems to be a good communicator, and he tells us: "Before ordination, he was a reporter for Retail Week, a newspaper for the directors and senior managers of retail chains. Julian trained for the ministry at Oak Hill Theological College in London. After serving his curacy in Chester, he became vicar of the Parish Church of the Ascension in 2000. He contributes to BBC Radio Sheffield discussion programmes. He is press officer for Reform Sheffield..." He seems a good egg, but has moved on from Curate (joke intended) to Vicar.

3) I am now catching up on Douglas Murray. Would that the policy-makers and legislators paid more attention to such obervers of these events. My concerns include The GOD Squad, the polarisation of politics, the slurry of populism, the prospect of mob rule and tyranny. "There is always going to be a reckoning..." DM

13 April 2011 at 22:32  
Anonymous MrJ said...

LoBoS_Thank you for those three connections, all interesting and worth following up.

13 April 2011 at 23:15  
Anonymous Oswin said...

ot @ 19:08

Another interesting post; thank you!

15 April 2011 at 18:36  

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