Tuesday, April 19, 2011

The Hansard Society on why people may support AV

As old enemies unite against a common foe and the latest opinion poll informs us that No2AV is enjoying a lead of 16 per cent over the Yes2AV campaign, perhaps we should pause to consider that the 'undecideds' constitute in excess of 20 per cent.

There is still plenty of scope for this important constitutional referendum to be treated as little more than a by-election protest against the coalition, or a popularity test of David Cameron and Nick Clegg personally. The future course of our democracy might be shaped by momentary grievance and ephemeral discontent.

In its 8th Audit of Political Engagement, the Hansard Society notes;
"Despite very mixed views about the advantages and disadvantages of the Alternative Vote (AV) system, most who took part in our research discussion groups said that, if they vote, they will likely support a change in the system. This was not because of particular dissatisfaction with First Past The Post. Rather, their dissatisfaction with the current system of politics, with MPs, Parliament and government was such that almost any change was preferable to the status quo."
A damning indictment.


Anonymous Robin Goldsmith said...

"A damming indictment" indeed and probably fairly reflecting the widespread sense of disillusionment with politics as we do it. It seems to be a system built on C19 political landscape of 2 strong parties that has not acknowledged new wider political interests. If every time one votes, he has to acknowledge that his vote is wasted, disillusionment and alienation follows. We have to move to a system that encourages everyone to get involved by making them feel that their contribution counts.

19 April 2011 at 12:01  
Anonymous DREADNAUGHT said...

It will be interesting just to see what kind of a turn-out justifies the epithet 'democratic' if the criterion of over 50% as a bench mark for a successful poll is not met.

19 April 2011 at 12:19  
Anonymous MrJ said...

From the long view, it must be NO irrespective of current discontents. How long? Say from at or soon after the time of the late Archbishop Cranmer (whose name is honoured here) to the furthest horizon from now.

19 April 2011 at 12:51  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

‘The future course of our democracy might be shaped by momentary grievance and ephemeral discontent’.

It is said what a man sows, he reaps.

Prior to the General Election Cameron sowed a promise that he would give us a referendum.

He has now given us a referendum.

It’s as if Cameron or the Camerons have been cursed.

Is there a curse of the Camerons?

19 April 2011 at 13:25  
Blogger zeonglow said...

It's so easy to confuse your personal interest with the 'greater good'. I think their is a fair deal of this going with the NO camp, as well as the blatant lying.

19 April 2011 at 13:27  
Blogger English Viking said...

I quite like Status Quo.


No to AV, BTW, or we'll forever be blighted with morons like Clegg and Cameron, who can't win an election between them, but still get to kill people all over the world in the name of 'democracy'.

19 April 2011 at 13:56  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If only we could resurrect the greatest British man of all time and make him PM for ever.

I'll go and get me pills. Potent anti-nostalgia formula,they are.
But they wear off ever so fast.

Marcus Foxall

19 April 2011 at 15:27  
Anonymous Voyager said...

Opinion Polls should be banned. They are marketing companies seeking to sway voters by issuing spurious forecasters without having any idea of turnout.It is a corporate interference in the Secret Ballot process

19 April 2011 at 16:07  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

As I have suggested before, the main political parties seem to have conspired to bring about the effective disenfranchisement of the electorate. They are so similar in nearly every respect thta whoever we vote for we get the same liberal consensus. People want an alternative; they are offered none unless they are willing to risk UKIP.

Tribalism, and little else, keeps the thing going. No wonder most people are sick of it: broken promises, endless tinkering and state interference in people's lives, and an agenda that hardly corresponds to the desires of most people.

19 April 2011 at 16:12  
Blogger English Pensioner said...

AV won't make any difference to the type of person in parliament, as, with a few honourable exceptions, politics attracts a particular type of person, which, if we are honest with ourselves, are the last people who should be running the country.
AV, I believe, will make things worse, with candidates trying to be all things to all people in an attempt to attract second preference votes.
The days of strong minded, independent thinking MPs has long gone and we will get nonentities fighting for the middle-ground until such a time as we get something like the Tea Party or the True Finns who will attract the public with straight talking. This can't come too soon for me!

19 April 2011 at 16:13  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Deutronomy 28:64-And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, [even] wood and stone.

In gothic architecture the Gargoyles, Ogres and Imps Impede my spiritual growth.

Yet the Grand Architecture itself is a symphony of sacred geometry, that makes me glad to belong to a Nation that worships in stone.

The Tory maketh the Lightening Oak his symbol because they used Thors lightening strikes against Cromwell.

If the lightening bolt of the Thory Tree Party represents the Divine Spark, I place my faith in the Divine Spark and am glad to be of a Nation that worships in wood.

19 April 2011 at 16:22  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Well, I've got my postal vote form through today.

It says "At present, the UK uses the 'first past the post' system to elect MPs to the House of Commons. Should the 'alternative vote' system be used instead?"

It also says "Vote (X) in one box only", presumably in case the Yes voters expect to express a first and second preference. :)

19 April 2011 at 18:47  
Anonymous not a machine said...

At £240 for a copy of Erskin and may , perhaps they stand to make sums similar to the other lobby group.

NO to AV : because you have the moment and choice to decide your representative , and not a post calculation ,due to weak (deliberately weak) campaigns .

Elections must have the inate ability to choose a candidate based on somthing the electorate can both carry out with ease and understand, AV is rindstone tango into the murky long grass for public accountability and pre election fixing. Should I now look forward to the speech for duly elected member of x constituancy , thanking the unsure and unconvinced for believing that that his/her campaign was run with such little backbone so as to have gained sufficent second preference votes to win ?.

It has no basis for saying your mp will work harder , it will not stem corruption (for that useually occures when elected) , although it will increase the rumours of corruption just for damaging your vote . There could be grumbles in constituancies where a winner is calculated and not choosen. The people have computed is not the same as the people have spoken.

19 April 2011 at 18:54  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

If AV makes safe seats less likely then I am for it. FPtheP has delivered the current coalition and I expect more under any voting system in the future.

19 April 2011 at 21:00  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

I was all fine about FPTP, thinking this AV thing was just a fudge to make the Coalition hang together, but I'm wavering a bit now.

Anyone got a link to a website making a good argument against AV? I don't live in a marginal seat area.

19 April 2011 at 21:29  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Concise pro-AV argument: http://bit.ly/gDximX

19 April 2011 at 22:30  
Anonymous Ali Bongo said...

@19 April 2011 21:29

with the wave of a wand and 'Abra Cadabra' 19 April 2011 22:30..very funny, 'but Mammy, I can see how it's done'.

The Master of Magic.

19 April 2011 at 22:48  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

Fewer and fewer people are participating in the democratic process because they feel their vote is irrelevant, their opinions are ignored and their ability to influence things is non-existent. Yet people are still interested in the issues. Just ask them their opinions and they tell you. People are still actively joining single issue pressure groups, and voting on social network sites and TV talent shows. Why the difference? Because in the world of commerce & entertainment their opinions matter and they know their vote can influence the outcome. When people realise the power they have they use it. The level of political engagement in Switzerland is far higher than any other European country. They know they have the power to change things. Their country's laws & culture are decided by them.

19 April 2011 at 23:43  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Ah ha rebel saint you seem to have the real reason why the lefty hedgmonie group think we need AV.
I seem to recall Dear harriet making a commons dandy of it , which she termed the phrase voter apathy. Of course the labour terror was in full swing and she had identified voter apathy ,mmmm not really much of complex analysis required is there.

I firmly blame Labour for the decline in voters , for convincing them that they only need to wear the kiddies fun park , wrist band to get free ice cream. Who knows they may have actively cultivated some people to just switch off with the forced spin and celebrity politics .

If you can win with 40% of the electorate missing , well AV will be complimentary , second pref socialist who prtends to be centre right and ,well you can back to blowing tax payers money whilst claiming victory , for not mentioning underclass .

When the Edward makes a publicity statement about AV not being about Nick Clegg (and then not explaining AV) you know the twisters are in trouble , as it was an unprovable argument in the first place. AV will make your mp work harder (how about FPTP will make your mp think very carefully about being accountable).
Now we have Lord Ashdown claiming conservatives have made it personal , yeah right trying to make out immature conservative bullies , not like touchy feely AV , nice try , but then why didnt he av a go at Edward for remark about jeremy kyle show , with exception of Mr cleggs go at deputy PMQs (leaving debt for our children)where is the Liberals non ecnomic attack on Labour mmmmm.
Lord Ashdown may do better to consider the plasticene outputs from the Labour leader , who is still doing this country a disservice by not only gaining a living at the tax payers expense , but spouting the same cockwaffle that insulted most 5yr olds last time round .
Has he not gone from hier apparent to speaking like a bed wetter unsure about overnight pants or a rubber mattress , as he has so many nightmares that one day some bit of sucking up to one part of the lie will find him out .

I am thinking of opening a book about when the words , tinsey winsey are used , or a tad when answering questions about their time in office .we have people with degrees posing as idiots that even when ministers were unaware of what was happening !! well er you know we got it a bit wrong , wow what a doggie treat that one is .

Then they want to swallow AV to make 7years of debt repayment , some sort of better politics only with same actors in it .

the underclass labour created dont care about voting or anything much else , they dissolved the country for leftest theory.

20 April 2011 at 00:43  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

People get the politicians they deserve!

I reckon there's a great deal of laziness behind the decline in standards. Democracy requires effort to work. Who can be bothered - really? People don't want to cut their grass anymore or cook decent meals, let alone keep track of slippery politicians.

Also really wonder about the 'professionalisation' of MP's and local councillors. Career politicians are less trustfully.

Something needs to change. But what? Can't see the electoral system changing much whatever the outcome of the referendum.

20 April 2011 at 01:56  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you know this ´"worldreligion" theam. to have a Satansm in the cristianchurch.
i didnt belive my eays when i so
Satan in the chruch,- I was going out of the christian church. there will be no more prying to a God who look like Good but it is Satan.

20 April 2011 at 04:01  
Anonymous MrJ said...

not a machine (20 April 2011 00:43)_ And how about the enactment of the Bill including fixed term Parliaments?

20 April 2011 at 06:38  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

Voting for av,a variant of H1N1,will not solve the problems of the English people,because the problem is not with the voting system,it is with the calibre of persons attracted,whos political differences are in name only,since they all graze in the meadows of communism,and the milk and beef thus produced is tainted with a poisonous elitism,indeed no-one reaches westminster whos political idiology has not been vetted,and found in accordance with thier own,so entrenching this hegemony is nothing short of folly.

20 April 2011 at 07:44  
Anonymous Voyager said...

People get the politicians they deserve!

Not quite because the selection process is secret, and here they do not even post the results or list of candidates: they used to.

The simple fact is that if hundreds of voters descended on their MP's surgery every week he would take note.

It is the lack of unity among those motivated to complain that permits them to be isolated. The "None Of The Above Party" should register and harvest Votes especially under AV

Or simply have a "Abstention Party" and invite people to vote as "Abstainers"

20 April 2011 at 07:55  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People's votes have no meaning today. All three main parties deliver the same rubbish and very little of it bears any relation to what people actually want; we are simply told "this is what you are getting, like it or not".

AV or not AV, that may be the question, but it still centres around Lib/Lab/Con; it's not the system that is at fault, it's the parties. Only UKIP appears to be listening to the populus.

When sameness takes a hold in Nature, She reacts....chaos, upheaval....removal of the old, installation of the new......fresh forms, more diversity. That is what will happen. And, I believe, soon.

20 April 2011 at 08:48  
Anonymous Old Grumpy said...

We voted in a new government and we still get metrication (both main political parties routinely condemn it in opposition, and both routinely dismiss the objections as soon as they get into government. It's happened four times so far in succession, and the latest minister has just done the same thing)

We voted in a new givernment and still get nuclear power stations (despite being against the Lib Dem manifesto)

We voted in a new government and we still get new wars. We've got rid of Irac, but we've still got the Afghans, and now Libya.

We voted in a new government, yet we've still got the eu. (Until the British Public wake up, an umlikely scenario, that will remain so) UKIP will solve that problem, but under FPTP, a UKIP government is unlikely

We voted in a new government, and now it's Vince Cable wanting to unpick the act of Succession instead of Jack Straw. Was that one in the Lib Dem manifesto? Why not just let Jack Steaw keep his job?

We voted in a new government and we still get HS2. Why not let Lord Adonis just keep his job as well?

So is it any wonder that people question whether our so-called democracy actually means anything when nothing changes as a result.

I expect the government may allow us a referendum on the choice of thethe colour of paint used for the railings outside number 10.

20 April 2011 at 14:04  
Blogger bwims said...

That's exactly why I shall be voting for it. Without it, we are doomed to a choice between two socialist parties, because people fear for "the wasted vote", little realising that if they don't vote for UKIP, and eventual release from the EUSSR, ALL votes are wasted.

20 April 2011 at 16:42  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

A wise anonymous stated 20 April 2011 08:4

Goodness me...Ernst thought he had posted a comment, anonymously, which he never does, and then forgotten about it. Old Age?

Well said , my shy anonymous mate...do put a name on next time, so Ernst can applaud you properly for your wisdom .

Ernsty, WHOEVER.

21 April 2011 at 18:27  

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