Friday, May 06, 2011

Cameron: "Jesus was the founder of the Big Society"


That was the declaration of the Prime Minister at a recep­tion for prominent Christians last week in Downing Street. From the Church Times:
Speaking to an assembly of about 60 invited guests drawn from Chris­tian organisations, on Wednesday of last week, Mr Cameron remarked: “You’ll all say that our Lord was really dealing with, starting the Big Society two thousand years ago, and you’re absolutely right. I’m not saying we’ve invented some great new idea here.
Indeed. And His Grace noted his lack of invitation. Not that he'd have accepted, of course, being naught but ash. But it's nice to be asked.
“What I’m saying is that one of the best things about our country is that people step forward as individuals, as families, as communities, as organisations, as churches, and do extraordinary things in our country in terms of helping others and helping to build a bigger, richer, more prosperous, more generous society; and all I’m saying is wouldn’t it be great if we did even more of that.”
Yup.
He looked to the Churches, he said, to support the project: “I think Churches, and religious organisations, have a huge amount to bring to the Big Society. I look around the room and I see Churches that are already running schools, I see Christians who want to start free schools, I see organisations deeply involved in civic society and providing great services... So I think the Big Society is something that people of all faiths, but particularly of the Christian faith, can get very involved in.”
His Grace likes '...particularly the Christian faith'. Would the Prime Minister care to expand on this point? Or is it not possible without denigrating other religions and risking an incitement to hatred?
Mr Cameron, who described himself as “a wishy-washy sort of Christian”, used the occasion to thank the Churches for their contribution to national life. He also thanked those who had provided personal support for his family, including his parish priests in Oxfordshire and London, and Sister Frances Dominica and the staff at Helen House, the children’s hospice that had looked after the Camerons’ son Ivan.
A 'wishy-washy sort of Christian'. Hmm... His Grace is not sure that there can be any such sort of Christian: certainly, the 'luke-warm' variety get a particularly hard time in the Book of Revelation. One wonders which religion category the Prime Minister ticked on his census form.
He spoke robustly about the place of Christianity. “Britain is a Christian country. Christianity has given a huge amount to our country, and continues to do so. As one of my colleagues, Said (sic) Warsi, put it... as a Government, we shouldn’t be fright­ened of, as she put it, doing God.
Right. But what when the precepts of that God happen to conflict with Government policy? It is not possible to speak 'robustly' about the place of Christianity in Britain without robustly defending the liberty to manifest that religion in the public sphere. Freedom of worship is inadequate: freedom of religion is what is required for this to be a 'Christian country'.
“I’ve never really understood this argument about ‘Should the Church get involved in politics? Yes or no?’ To me, Christianity, faith, religion, the Church, is involved in politics because so many political questions are moral questions...
Quite. The Prime Minister takes His Grace's (and Sir Humphrey's) theme - see top-right corner.
“So I don’t think we should be frightened about having these debates, and these discussions, and frankly sometimes these arguments about politics in our country and what it means to be a Christian and what faith brings to our politics.”
His Grace is not frightened of these debates. But the Conservative Party does not show itself very willing to have them. As a consequence, the level of political discourse in modern Britain is diminished. Contentious moral issues, no matter how worthy of scrutiny or debate, are swiftly closed down with threats of suspension, expulsion or dismissal. In this age of hyper-sensitivity to offending anyone on any matter, genuine debate is suppressed and liberties are thereby surrendered. David Cameron is an Anglican: in that, His Grace greatly rejoices. Not all Anglicans agree on every matter of doctrine, and that via media is both it weakness and strength. But we have the Prime Minister's definition of the Christian faith: speaking 'as a church-goer' a few months ago, he said: "I think Christians should be tolerant and welcoming and broad-minded." His Grace has no problem with that. Except that the 'founder of the Big Society' was occasionally intolerant, unwelcoming and narrow-minded. Whom should Christians obey? The original founder of the Big Society, or the one who seeks to reform it?

67 Comments:

Blogger English Viking said...

The idea that being a Christian involves getting elected (obviously by opposing Christian principle, as not a small amount of doctrine is unelectable by non-Christians) is ludicrous.

Cameron is a plastic moron.

6 May 2011 at 14:34  
Blogger Arden Forester said...

Is calling someone a plastic moron Christian?

6 May 2011 at 14:40  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

‘Contentious moral issues, no matter how worthy of scrutiny or debate, are swiftly closed down with threats of suspension, expulsion or dismissal. In this age of hyper-sensitivity to offending anyone on any matter, genuine debate is suppressed and liberties are thereby surrendered.’

If Cameron doesn’t sort out our liberties – tell him this – we will do the same thing that we did to the Labour Party: up and down the land, from pulpit to pulpit, we will preach against the Conservative Party.

This is serious and we are losing patience.

If the Conservative Party wants to take on the churches we will behave just like St Paul did in Ephesus: we’ll become like gladiators who fight with beasts.

6 May 2011 at 14:49  
Blogger English Viking said...

Arden Forester,

What about liar, thief or hypocrite?

All used by Christ.

You moron.

6 May 2011 at 15:03  
Blogger Arden Forester said...

I'll remember to keep away from your chopper, then!

6 May 2011 at 15:11  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

'...the declaration of the Prime Minister at a recep­tion for prominent Christians...'

Given that Jesus pronounced blessing on the meek and the poor in spirit, I'm not sure what a 'prominent Christian' is. That aside, however, are we surprised that Cameron would big up Christianity in such company?

Isn't it his usual way to pander to whatever audience he is with?

And if that conceit, the 'Big Society' means anything, it means that governments should withdraw from most of their interfering ways with personal and social life and leave it to individuals, families and churches to provide social support. Isn't that what his oft-misquoted predecessor meant when she averred that there is no such thing as society?

6 May 2011 at 15:15  
Blogger Theo said...

Perhaps the Prime Minister would like to apologise to Chris Grayling who was cast into oblivion for daring to take a Christian stance on sodomy.

6 May 2011 at 15:29  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

If he wanted a Christian society he should have said so, Jesus was Just. Private policy subverts the course of justice and Cameron belongs to the private camp.

He may fool the happy clappers but where are the happy clappers when Christ gets dragged through the Courts.

Still walking in Galilee no doubt.

6 May 2011 at 16:31  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Don't be silly, Theo --- you can't expect the Big Boss of a Big Society to apologise to a loser. A powerless nothing and nobody who refuses to toe the line deserves to be a victim; and every one of his high-profile persecutors has the "'uman rite" to make it so.

But... what if I've taken films about American 'education' too seriously(hazing, drugs, dirty parties, etc)? Maybe I should return to the models in Tom Brown's Schooldays, St. Trinian's, etc...

Or... what if our politicians relate to it: what if they think that stuff taught them all about life and how to deal with people...? That 'school' is primarily about socialisation? It helps define 'leaders' and 'popular bullies' ('jocks'), and 'the person everybody wants to be,' etc.

Christians? Hey ... [unless they're 'extremists'] getting Christian money is like 'taking candy from a baby'; all you have to do is pretend that "Jesus" is on your side. Cool, man.

6 May 2011 at 17:10  
Anonymous MrJ said...

The link to the Church Times reports Mr Cameron, PM, mentioning "...helping to build a bigger, richer, more prosperous...society", when addressing an audience of about 60 invited guests drawn from Christian organisations on Wednesday last week; and that "he used the occasion to thank the Churches for their contribution to national life."

That gives the tone of the whole show, and exposes the inadequacy of the PM's comprehension, as Anglican, as party leader, or as the Queen's first minister (as better said by Anabaptist 15:15)

6 May 2011 at 17:26  
Anonymous len said...

It it possible to be a Christian AND to be PC, I don`t think so!.This is the very purpose of Political Correctness,to stifle and constrict free speech (especially where Christian Moral Values are concerned!)

The very nature of a Politician is that of a Chameleon, politicians must appears to be all things to all people,to maximise their votes!.

Jesus would not recognise or accept a 'wishy washy' Christian for these are no use to The Kingdom purposes of God.

6 May 2011 at 17:40  
Anonymous Philip said...

As HG points out, "It is not possible to speak 'robustly' about the place of Christianity in Britain without robustly defending the liberty to manifest that religion in the public sphere. Freedom of worship is inadequate: freedom of religion is what is required for this to be a 'Christian country'." Exactly. Indeed "Freedom of worship" can mean merely freedom to sing hymns behind the closed doors of churches and homes.

The problem is that Mr Cameron only supports Christianity until it comes to a choice between religious liberty and the agenda of some homosexual activists, when he nearly always sides with the latter (as do the illiberal and totalitarian LibDems). Hence his backing for Labour's moves against the RC adoption agencies and Christian B&B owners, his sacking of candidates who dare to speak Christian truth on homosexuality by, e.g., merely expressing moderate and principled concern about homosexual propaganda in schools, and his support of the Johns judgement which potentially could make it more difficult for Christians to foster children.

Freedom of religion, and also freedoms of conscience or association, are basic freedoms of a free nation. Perhaps some senior MPs need to clarify with Mr Cameron whether he believes in these key freedoms, or are we only to be ‘free’ within the confines of secular creeds set by the State.

Christianity is not a take-your-pick system where one can accept what we agree with (e.g. on helping the poor) but reject those parts that don’t conform, for example, to current Lib-Left beliefs on sexual ethics.

Unless Mr Cameron respects Christian conscience and takes urgent action to address the erosion of religious liberty caused by Labour’s equality laws, then any warm words on Christianity will be meaningless.

6 May 2011 at 17:41  
Anonymous not a machine said...

prominant christians , no invite for your grace ?

I am quite sure the christian faith had a great deal to do with the conservatives success :) despite labours attempts to downgrade and dissolve its meaning .

But your graces last question needs consideration .The big society may have been approached by christ in parables , whilst it is pretty clear that to follow and believe in christ by the Bible (pref king james) is the criteria ,one cannot then assume it is confined to a party (although one may note that some partys would be all too happy to destroy it and have complete political power).
let us not forget that Tony Blair decided not to do God , and handed the cultural legacy over to the spite and bile of the left , let alone the complete sexed up society which gave Alistair Cambell the many illicet political rendevous of policy and spin implimentation.
What David Cameron must not forget is time and thought ,his tiff with Peter Hitchens was unfortunate in that Mr Hitchens has come incredibly close to pointing out some the invisible ways anything like a big society in the christian sense can occure .I have noted not only the mental delerium labour left , but there reference points and constructs that make re enablement of christian principals so difficult.

Labour and the Libs have placed in the public mind ,the boorish idea that morality is undiserable.The attention spans and interactions are totally different as is human work.

The other thing is politicians with no faith see it as another tool ,which of course it isnt which how the progressives cleave us all.

Good schools should not be aysymetric to good parents ,being as common knowledge about life has been warped and blotted into mere taste of mental cocktail , the organic grain has gone cheap and nasty in a generation and alas we have politicans who fill the current simplistic demands all too well.

It should be the church who enagage in the battle for good ,and there ranks have been despised ,depleted and derided ,let us hope they are equipped to do the work , but it is formidable and thoughtful task for them to secure even marriage ,parenting and education in such a incessant and mentally addictive/distracting world .

6 May 2011 at 17:42  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

Cameron = User.
A communications man living a privileged life while pretending to be Mr Average. I hear the policemen forced to retire have been invited back to work for nothing for the benefit of the Big Society. It must appear very simple if you don't need to work.

6 May 2011 at 17:56  
Anonymous obreption said...

So many rants! I think many of you could emulate Margaret Thatcher in her 'Sermon on the Mound'. This was a real politician who took on the Edinburgh theologians and for which she was derided. On this day of the SNP victory, do you Anglicans have any advice for the First Minister (Mr Salmond) when he has to meet Mr Cameron and possibly Her Majecty in that part of the UK where the established church is neither Episcopalian or Anglican. I think John Knox would be turning in his grave to think that 'Christian' advice was to abstain not only from sex and alcohol but also Labour. It may not be Big Society, it may not be Brigadoon, but I found a 'bankrupt' Bank of Scotland five pound note with a drawing of Brig O'Doon, which appears in Tam O'Shanter. I am willing to send this fiver to an Anglican church of His Grace's benefice!

6 May 2011 at 18:34  
Anonymous Michael Fowke said...

Does this mean Cameron sees himself as the second coming?

Maybe in the W.B. Yeats sense.

6 May 2011 at 18:43  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

Cranmer said

Freedom of worship is inadequate: freedom of religion is what is required for this to be a 'Christian country'.

This not a Christian country! What a bloody cheek tying to foist your religion on the rest of us. This is a democracy not a theocracy.

This is a country in which a minority of people subscribe to the various flavours of the Christian faith. That we the majority, who have no interest in your magic and superstition, allow you space to practice it is very good of us. The trouble with you Cranmer is that you are never satisfied, always trying to gatecrash the party to which you were not invited. Enjoy your freedom to worship but don’t push your luck.

6 May 2011 at 18:53  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Graham Davis,

"Cranmer said..."

His Grace does not know if you are stupid, purposely obtuse or just irritatingly vexatious. It was the Prime Minister who referred to this as a Christian country. If you believe this assertion to be 'a bloody cheek', please clearly direct your disapproval to him.

6 May 2011 at 19:04  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

Well Cranmer I am pleased to hear that you do not consider this to be a Christian country.

6 May 2011 at 19:12  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Graham Davis,

Ah, obtuse, indeed.

6 May 2011 at 19:18  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

Mr Graham Davis advises us:
'Enjoy your freedom to worship but don’t push your luck.'

Is it me, or does that sound like some sort of threat?

6 May 2011 at 20:08  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Mr. Anabaptist @ 20:08 - I ignore posts by the subject of your comment at 20:08. HG's and your own responses gave me pause today, however; which led me to the bit about "always trying to gatecrash the party." And there I thought this Communion was His Grace's party!

6 May 2011 at 20:25  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"Mr Cameron, who described himself as “a wishy-washy sort of Christian”"

A bit like me then I guess! :)

6 May 2011 at 20:27  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Anabaptist:"Is it me, or does that sound like some sort of threat?"

Perhaps it was just a warning. I think the Christian Institute and the CLC are pushing their luck, and by extension that of all other Christians (wishy-washy or otherwise), by trying to force a confrontation as they do. I used to be fairly laissez-faire about religious privileges and the like but they have made me quite strident these days.

6 May 2011 at 20:31  
Blogger William said...

Danj0 20:27

His Grace has an uncanny ability to generate blogs that utimately end-up being about Danj0. How does he do it?

6 May 2011 at 20:32  
Anonymous len said...

Without the Danjo`s, the Graham Davis`s etc`s who would we Christians have to preach to/at/ don`t scare them off whatever you do!
:)

6 May 2011 at 21:03  
Anonymous len said...

I seem to remember Jesus saying that his Kingdom was not of this World.

Because Jesus`s Kingdom is entirely different from this World.It is the absolute opposite to this World.
God`s plan of redemption needs a new man ,and a new World, a totally new order.

However;
in the mean time, Christian principles and Christian Morality are the best hope we have of maintaining any sort of order until Jesus Christ returns and sets up HIS Kingdom.

6 May 2011 at 21:12  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

William: "His Grace has an uncanny ability to generate blogs that utimately end-up being about Danj0. How does he do it?"

And my comments seem to have an amazing ability to trigger an almost immediate response from you. You barely bother to post anything here unless I post. Are you so devoid of Christian thought that it requires an atheist to stimulate a response and even then it's, well, devoid of Christian thought. I reckon you'll be keeping me company for eternity too the way you are. God help me. :)

6 May 2011 at 21:39  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

len said...
I seem to remember Jesus saying that his Kingdom was not of this World.6 May 2011 21:12

Showing your age now len, I don't remember Jesus saying anything ;-D

But I am aware, in the near future their World is going to get too expensive to live in. That is the point at which we will deside to stop paying for the privilage of living in their World and start living in our own World.

Now thats a Big Idea for a Big Society.

6 May 2011 at 22:37  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Your Grace, let all communicants cast aside their cynicism and take Dave's remarks at face value. It is abundantly clear that Dave reads your blog and takes it as his gospel. No other briefing paper on the matters of the day is required!

6 May 2011 at 22:46  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

When we get back to Gods Plan the terms atheist, gentile or jew will cease to matter.

Judah is the Judiciary, they have always administered the Kings Courts, their modus oprandi is to corrupt the law to their own advantage.

Our Minister plays the fool, Court Jewster and a Prime one at that.

Their is a Harlequin nature in our old friend Cameleon, Corinthian and Characteture.

6 May 2011 at 23:59  
Blogger William said...

Danj0 said:

"And my comments seem to have an amazing ability to trigger an almost immediate response from you. You barely bother to post anything here unless I post."

Just showing an interest.

"I reckon you'll be keeping me company for eternity too the way you are."

Let's hope so.

"God help me."

That's a good start.

7 May 2011 at 00:02  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Please forgive my indulgence , but....

YESSSSSSS that vote for AV feels sOOOOO good .

My cup full and runneth over , since the lord saved me Ime as happy as can be , my cups full and runneth over .

And just to celebrate I found a 2006 M/s vintage port and ive got appropiate ABC on my decks "shoot that poison arrow to my heart" ohhhhhh.
or should it be "perfect day"

To kick labour (corrupt version) when it was laughing at indebt prols by collapsing into opposition , is just about as good it gets.

A nice job on coalition working , nice to see a little precarious reality return .

I might advise a rethink on clean coal and HS2 , "when your world is full of strange arrangements and gravity wont pull you through you know your missing out on somthing and that somthing depends on you "

Thankyou lord ,hallejuah

7 May 2011 at 00:31  
Blogger English Viking said...

Len,

I dislike you not one tenth as much as you dislike me. You speak the truth (mostly), yet you disparage me for the same. Why? Because I cut no corners?

Your Grace,

You are far more tolerant than I would be, and for that I thank you.


Anabaptist,

What if it was a threat?

Would you run, cry and beg, like your monkey predecessors?

You whimper like a girl.

7 May 2011 at 00:48  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Cranmer said ...

"David Cameron is an Anglican: in that, His Grace greatly rejoices. Not all Anglicans agree on every matter of doctrine, and that via media is both it weakness and strength."

Indeed!

Is there such a 'thing' as an Anglican profession of belief, articles of faith, all unite around?

Senior Church 'leaders' who question the virgin birth and the physical resurrection of Christ. A church with, at best, ambivalent views, on homosexuality, abortion and divorce.

A Christian Church is not a coalition of interests with its leadership aiming to retain unity.

Yes, Jesus was: "intolerant, unwelcoming and narrow-minded" about practices, particularly amongst the Jewish leaders, that departed from God's message.

No 'via media' compromises with Jesus - just a caution to stay on the narrow path.

7 May 2011 at 00:57  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

not a machine said...7 May 2011 00:31

Excellent comment, drink to me only, with thyne eyes and eye will drink to thee.

The eyes are the way to to soul, yet the ayes don't have it.

7 May 2011 at 01:12  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Bred In Bone , if tonights final result wasnt worth a celebration ,i dont know what is .
it has been so long since the people were offered a responsible action and they delivered and saved us from further shennanigins to corrupt what was once a fairly decent and honest country.

We have beaten a very expensed and eloquent political lie today , and I hope their are some more to come .

but perhaps some eyes have been opend

7 May 2011 at 01:23  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Goodness - I had thought that Dodos were nice birds. Now I'm noticing that God had a reason for rendering them flightless.

"A Christian Church is not a coalition of interests" ... why not - so long as we sincerely and carefully believe them to be Christian? Just because some foreign papa insists that "Ve vill obey orderssss"?

"... with its leadership aiming to retain unity." Who decides who'll lead us, then? You?

No. Many of us prefer to follow His Grace's lead (past and present). As I said before: Thanks be to God that he's allowed us 500 years of freedom from your edicts, laws, commands, or whatever you like to call them. I thank Him also for preserving us from the earlier CharlieBoy. Your present-day aggression merely shows how right our forefathers were to rescue us from your earthbound talons.

7 May 2011 at 01:24  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

non mouse said...

Silly me for thinking that a church should have some internal doctrinal agreement, discipline and leadership!

7 May 2011 at 01:30  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Decent and honest, love it!

Now if we can only get back justice, in a system that has true weights and measures.

No more halve truths and halve measures, then our cups will be filled with no more and no less than what we need.

When consience under God is greater than policy, Mankind will cope because God will not try us with anything beyond our abilty to pull together and cope with.

Thats a Big Idea for a Big Society

7 May 2011 at 01:41  
Anonymous not a machine said...

mmm interesting bred in the bone although i thought we were just begining to experiment on crime and justice with a huge carpet and big brush .Instructions:lift up one corner and sweep all custodial sentences under it quietly.


I was just wondering where Mr rebel saint was , oh yes thats right AV got so convincingly buried in wonk theory pile , hes unable to face music .

7 May 2011 at 01:51  
Anonymous non mouse said...

bitb: "Now if we can only get back justice, in a system that has true weights and measures." :)

7 May 2011 at 02:24  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

William: "Just showing an interest."

If you get yourself off over online strife then you ought to nip over to the Independent. You'd fit in marvellously on the comments section over there I reckon.

7 May 2011 at 06:24  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Nice to see you're still posting here, William - the years are quite building up on us long-term communicants!

btw: I hope Oswin's OK --- just on holiday or something.

7 May 2011 at 06:45  
Anonymous len said...

Just a thought Mr Dodo,
You have chosen an extinct' old bird' as your 'icon', which also represents your'religion'?. Dead like Monty Pythons parrot?

Has this been done (unknowingly) in the prophetic?.If so,God certainly has a sense of humour!.

The chosen 'bird'of the Christian faith is a Dove,symbol of peace ,and very gentle by nature.

but I digress............

Don`t quite understand your comments E V ,you are normally much more concise?

7 May 2011 at 08:26  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Mr Dodo @ 00.57 & @ 01.30 said:
1) Is there such a 'thing' as an Anglican profession of belief, articles of faith, all unite around?

2) Silly me for thinking that a church should have some internal doctrinal agreement, discipline and leadership!

This Anglican communicant does not seek earthly leadership, let alone discipline from his church, being able to think for himself and having reached belief on his own terms. This was possibly the most important point made by Bishop Richard Chartres in his address at the marriage of William and Kate. Contentment comes from the KJV, the BCP (1928), the Nicaean Creed (Anglican profession of belief), the Apostles Creed, 39 Articles and the beauty of the Anglican liturgy together with the Anglican choral tradition.

Many other Anglican communicants may feel the same.

Vigorous debate on all topics by reasonable people is not a heresy per se and having the honesty to admit doubt is not to be condemned either. If you have an inquiring mind you will feel at home in the Anglican Church. If you prefer regimentation and the certainty (coercion?) of dogma, why, all roads lead to Rome.

Given the collapse in male vocations for the RC priesthood, may this communicant venture to suggest that the Anglican Church is about 25-50 years ahead of the RC church in contemplating female priests? Importantly the Anglican Churches, thanks to their non-celibate male priesthood, are not in fact short of priests. Neither is the Anglican priesthood living under a reputational cloud.

Finance is the limiting factor, if anything.

Bless you.

7 May 2011 at 08:30  
Anonymous Anne said...

The Founder or Founders of Mr Cameron's "Big Society" is the European Union, and no one else.
This is being activated in this instance by one of our Right Honourable Members Mr Eric Pickles, MP-as I am sure, Your Grace, that you already know.

It is through The Localism Bill that divides ENGLAND up permanently together with the break up of anything "NATIONAL". The "NATIONAL" Health Service divided-no longer NATIONAL, The NATIONAL Fire Service, divided- NO LONGER NATIONAL, The NATIONAL Police Service, divided-no longer NATIONAL, and so it goes on until perhaps we will no longer need a NATIONAL Parliament or Government or a National House of Lords, for ENGLAND will have its Elected Mayors and mini CABINETS, and the ability to ensure the EU Fines are paid by the local Regions all brought about through EU legislation which once 'National' Governments of the UK eagerly WELCOMED.

7 May 2011 at 12:36  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

len said...
"Just a thought Mr Dodo,
You have chosen an extinct' old bird' as your 'icon', which also represents your'religion'? "

One of the main reason the Dodo is so rare (not extinct, please!) is that rats, brought to our shores by intruders, stole our eggs.

bluedog said ...

If the Anglicans profess the Apostles and Nicene Creed why have so many of their priests, bishops and even an archbishop, publically expressed doubt in some of its key tenets?

Roman Catholicism - same today, yesterday and tomorrow - bases its rejection of women priests on theological grounds and this have been definitively stated. No 'modernism' here and capitualation to the feminist ranks!

It's the same too with the church's position on the great social and moral issues of our times - abortion, homosexuality, divorce and ethanasia. No 'liberalism' and confused advice.

Celibacy, a church discipline, is not the root cause of the problems you hint at.

7 May 2011 at 13:03  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Anne 12:36 "...Mr Cameron's 'Big Society' is the European Union... being activated in this instance by... Mr Eric Pickles, MP... through The Localism Bill..."

Agreed. The significance of this is greatly underesitmated, neglected or ignored.

7 May 2011 at 15:07  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"It's the same too with the church's position on the great social and moral issues of our times - abortion, homosexuality, divorce and ethanasia. No 'liberalism' and confused advice."

Homosexuality is no more a moral issue than heterosexuality is.

7 May 2011 at 19:19  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Danjo said ...
"Homosexuality is no more a moral issue than heterosexuality is."

And no less a moral issue than abortion, divorce or ethanasia, I suppose? Some Anglican's may well agree with you.

As for me, I hold a more traditional view of God's purposes for mankind, expressed in the Bible, and the way this should be expressed in social and individual relationships, particuarly those between men and women.

7 May 2011 at 19:47  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"And no less a moral issue than abortion, divorce or ethanasia, I suppose? Some Anglican's may well agree with you."

No, no, abortion and euthanasia is inherently a moral issue. I think almost everyone would agree. Divorce is a social issue but, like everything else, may have moral consequences.

All I was pointing out, really, was that some of this stuff comes from the Church and its teachings rather than being an external thing on which the Church has a position.

8 May 2011 at 08:08  
Anonymous len said...

Dodo,

The birds turning nasty!.

If you are holding up the Bible as an example for the Truth about things, why don`t you do that with everything?

8 May 2011 at 08:09  
Anonymous tony b said...

Does anyone know what the big society is? I keep hearing the term, but what is it, actually?

8 May 2011 at 09:15  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Mr Dodo @ 13.03 said, 'Roman Catholicism - same today, yesterday and tomorrow - bases its rejection of women priests on theological grounds.'

Well on Easter Sunday at the RC mass I attended the 80 year old priest held up a plastic sheet saying, 'This is the new English mass we will be using from now on.'

Most of the heavy lifting at this service was done by women congregants ('deacons'?) in mufti.

I was expecting full Tridentine, but obviously things are changing faster than your rhetoric.

Oh, and I have better manners than Tony Blair so did not take the bread.

8 May 2011 at 09:51  
Blogger William said...

If one take the view that producing children is the moral equivalent of purchasing a lifestyle accessory, then one may also take the view that homosexuality and heterosexuality are morally equivalent. Fortunately, you don't have to be a Christian to find that idea abhorrent.

8 May 2011 at 10:44  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

*wanders in*

What's that straw figure with the frantic sword cuts in it doing lying there?

*wanders out bemused*

8 May 2011 at 12:12  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

len said...
"Dodo,
The birds turning nasty!.
If you are holding up the Bible as an example for the Truth about things, why don`t you do that with everything."

Because Christ entrusted the instruction and ongoing interpretation of His message to His church.

Where in scripture does it unequivicolly state the bible is open to individual revelation and understanding?

My positions on homosexuality, abortion, ethanasia, family life and women priests, all rest on my own readings of the bible assisted by the Church's teachings and its traditions.

Why, as a professing christian, don't you address the points made and answer the critiques offered by the non-christians?

8 May 2011 at 19:36  
Anonymous len said...

Dodo,
What are your thoughts on ;
The immaculate conception of Mary.
The assumption of Mary.
Prayers to Mary and dead saints.
Transubstantiation (that the bread and wine become the literal body and blood of Christ).
The church built on Peter, whom they call the first Pope.
Infant baptism.
Mary being co-redemptive with Christ.
The Mass being necessary for salvation.
Canonization of dead saints.
Kneeling and praying before images.
Salvation coming only through the RCC.
Purgatory after death to purge a person of sin.
Selling indulgences.
Mary worship and adoration.
Holy water.
Celibate priesthood.
The Rosary.
Confession to a priest for forgiveness of sin.

9 May 2011 at 00:04  
Anonymous len said...

Who is "the rock"? Peter or Jesus? (Matthew 16:18)

The Greek word for Peter is petros, which means "a pebble" or a small stone. On the other hand, the Greek word that Jesus used for rock is petra, meaning "a massive rock" or bedrock. Now we can see that there is an obvious difference! Peter was correct when he stated that Jesus was "the Christ" and it was this profession of truth that the church would be founded upon: Jesus Christ "the chief cornerstone" (Matthew 21:42). Jesus was talking about building His church upon the solid bedrock, not a small pebble.

Scripture declares Jesus is the 'rock' on which His 'Ekklesia' will be built.

It was not Peter who was the rock, for the Old Testament of which both he and Paul both agree on explains who the rock is. Ps.18:31: “For who is our God except the Lord and who is our rock except our God. who is the church built on? Throughout the Old Testament the rock was synonymous with God 2 Sam 22:32: “For who is God, except the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God? Deut 32:15: “Israel forsook God who made him, and scornfully esteemed the Rock of his salvation.” Deut 32:18: “Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful, and have forgotten the God who fathered you.” Ps. 62:2: “He only is my rock and my salvation” Ps. 95:1: “calls God, “ the Rock of our salvation.” In 1 Cor.3:10 Paul claims to as a master builder saying there is no other foundation that can be laid, which is Jesus Christ. Christ is the one we build on and if built on any other, it will not endure the fire of testing for our work. “If anyone’s work which he has built on endures, he will receive a reward”(1 Cor.3:14). Paul's statement is No human being was ever referred to as a rock in the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures, neither are they found in the New Testament. The “Rock” (stone, cornerstone) is reserved only for Jesus Christ (Matt 21:42; Isa. 28:16; Cor. 3:11; 10:4; Eph 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8).

Isa. 44:8: “Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.” This should settle any idea of anyone else being called the foundation stone for the Church.
...............................

If the foundations are faulty (Catholicism or any false religion) the whole edifice is faulty and will not ultimately stand.

9 May 2011 at 00:21  
Blogger D. Singh said...

DanJO said:

‘Perhaps it was just a warning. I think the Christian Institute and the CLC are pushing their luck, and by extension that of all other Christians (wishy-washy or otherwise), by trying to force a confrontation as they do.’

Again this reveals DanJO’s latent fascism. In other words, ‘you Christians don’t you dare speak up for your freedoms and liberties.’

I have always said that within each liberal a fascist yearns to come out, loud and proud.

Evil demands confrontation.

9 May 2011 at 10:02  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"Again this reveals DanJO’s latent fascism. In other words, ‘you Christians don’t you dare speak up for your freedoms and liberties.’"

No, it shows that you like to spin words into a version that suits your prejudices and contorted beliefs. It's a bit ludicrous, really. But, hey, you carry on. It doesn't do any harm to see someone like you go way over the top in your rhetoric.

The CI and the CLC are trying their hardest to stir up a victim mentality in the more stupid or gullible Christians and get a case to the Supreme Court on the back of it. That's a dangerous game because it's not clear that a precedent will be set in their favour. In the meantime, there's a counter-movement happening which is not that helpful for the normal, laissez-faire Christians.

"Evil demands confrontation."

How dramatic! You ought to pop down to G.A.Y, you'd fit right in with the drama queens there. Did you watch the X-Men film last night or something and feel all pseudo-masculine and super-hero-ish now? Lol. Soooperrrr-Singh to the rescue!

9 May 2011 at 20:34  
Anonymous len said...

Christianity is never going to 'fit in 'with our present Society.
The'carnal man' is violently opposed to Christianity( as revealed by some of the remarks of the secular, and even some of the'religious'.)

Christianity demands a New Heart, a New Spirit,a New Order , a New World.

Christianity can never 'sit easy' with this corrupted World System,Christians are in this World but not of this World.
Any form of Christianity wedded to 'this World' will eventually become corrupted by it.

This World has been judged and found guilty,and there is only one 'doorway' out of it .....The Lord Jesus Christ.

(One last though the 'doorway'out of this World has a very low lintel on it ,you have to stoop low to enter,the proud and the 'stiff necked 'will possibly find that difficult?.)

10 May 2011 at 08:23  
OpenID scottspeig said...

Your Grace, 4 days late, but had issue with the Prime ministers remarks (and your agreement thereof) in the last paragraph.

The church should be tolerant - it should not be tolerant, but should be accepting (love the sinner hate the sin)

The church should be welcoming - Amen

The church should be broad-minded - only where scripture allows you to be, for the path of righteousness is a narrow road and so the church should guide accurately.

10 May 2011 at 12:40  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Scottspeig,

If you had bothered to read the next sentence...

10 May 2011 at 12:47  
Anonymous Mike Lampard said...

I am fed up to the back teeth with political correctness. 'Political crap' I call it. True liberty is the right to offend others with our views WITHOUT PENALTY! If we do not have the right to offend, we have no rights at all. Expressing true Christian truths (not doctrine but ABSOLUTE truths) WILL offend, and we claim that right to offend. No wishy washiness there!

14 May 2011 at 14:12  
Blogger Les said...

Hmm. Perhaps put rather succinctly on:
http://christianityisnotleftwing.blogspot.com/

15 May 2011 at 12:14  

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