Sunday, May 08, 2011

Pope Benedict in Venice


His Grace just could not resist sharing this majestic splendour.

The barge he sat in, like a burnish'd throne,
Burn'd on the water...

Pope in a boat?

Just what is the aquatic equivalent of a popemobile?

104 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Popescull?

8 May 2011 at 22:57  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Hmm.. it's not sculling.

8 May 2011 at 23:00  
Blogger Scriblerus Minor said...

Your Grace, this Query puzzles journos of every clan;
The answer, I would own, is PAPAMARAN.

8 May 2011 at 23:03  
Anonymous Peteraswilson said...

Row, row, row your pope, gently down a stream...

8 May 2011 at 23:04  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

And that, Mr Scriblerus Minor, delights His Grace no end.

And, yes, (anon@22.57) His Grace knows it's not a catamaran either, but it is a most excellent pun.

8 May 2011 at 23:06  
Anonymous gladiolys said...

Does a Pope ship in the woods?

8 May 2011 at 23:13  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

The puntiffmobile?

8 May 2011 at 23:29  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

The Bishop-of-Rowmobile

8 May 2011 at 23:32  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

His Rowliness, the Supreme Puntiff, Bishop of Row, of The Holy sea, Vatican Shippy, PrimeShipmate of Italy.

8 May 2011 at 23:42  
Anonymous len said...

How many oars does it take to propel a Pope.?
Well,I suppose all that gold does weight heavy?

8 May 2011 at 23:48  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

The seacred vessel?

[I'm on a roll!]

8 May 2011 at 23:49  
Anonymous Atlas shrugged said...

I don't know what one might wish to call an aquatic Popemobile, but please forgive me for wishing The Med contained either mines, hippo's or icebergs, preferably all 3.

Have you people ever wondered why Princes, Queens, Kings, Prime Ministers and Presidents are still found traveling in open top limo's, yet the Pope still travels behind 4 inches of bullet/bomb proof glass?

I note that the ABofC does not bother traveling around his flock within anything remotely like a Popemobile.

One could be forgiven for wondering why the Pope should believe any one would want to do him such harm?

Is there something, or indeed many things, The Holy Father is not telling us?

Has he an angry cock-hold on his tail, or has he become a little late with his mortgage interest payments, over these difficult economic times?

Or is he just paranoid for no sensible kind of reason?

After all the Pope is a very old man, and is obviously assured of his place at Gods right hand, being so self-evidently wonderful and all that, so why does he fear death so much. Surely he should be almost looking forward to such an, lets face it, ultimately inevitable event?

I know I would be if I believed in an afterlife as much as he claims to do.

Indeed, having given this matter a little more thought, I do believe in an afterlife, and so do not fear death as much as The Pope seems to do.

8 May 2011 at 23:54  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

Papal Infloatability?

8 May 2011 at 23:56  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

War King on Water?

8 May 2011 at 23:56  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

There's got to be a pun involving buoys ... but my mind is too pure!

9 May 2011 at 00:03  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

Wasn't he given the Quays of the Kingdom?

[Somebody stop me, please]

9 May 2011 at 00:07  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

No-heirs Ark

9 May 2011 at 00:11  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

The Theocrasea?

The Theoquatic?

9 May 2011 at 00:19  
Anonymous Hereward said...

I do hope he's not trying to emulate the Bargias

9 May 2011 at 00:21  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

Godola.

9 May 2011 at 00:29  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Buoys wil be buoys:

[Shakespeare H. VIII]
Act 3, SCENE II. Ante-chamber to KING HENRY VIII's apartment.

........................ Exeunt all but CARDINAL WOLSEY

CARDINAL WOLSEY
So farewell to the little good you bear me.
Farewell! a long farewell, to all my greatness!
This is the state of man: to-day he puts forth
The tender leaves of hopes; to-morrow blossoms,
And bears his blushing honours thick upon him;
The third day comes a frost, a killing frost,
And, when he thinks, good easy man, full surely
His greatness is a-ripening, nips his root,
And then he falls, as I do.
I have ventured,
Like little wanton boys that swim on bladders,
This many summers in a sea of glory,
But far beyond my depth: my high-blown pride
At length broke under me and now has left me,
Weary and old with service, to the mercy
Of a rude stream, that must for ever hide me.
Vain pomp and glory of this world, I hate ye:
I feel my heart new open'd. O, how wretched
Is that poor man that hangs on princes' favours!
There is, betwixt that smile we would aspire to,
That sweet aspect of princes, and their ruin,
More pangs and fears than wars or women have:
And when he falls, he falls like Lucifer,
Never to hope again.

Enter CROMWELL, and stands amazed
Why, how now, Cromwell!

CROMWELL : I have no power to speak, sir. .......

9 May 2011 at 00:29  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

Papal Sea men in berth control experiment

9 May 2011 at 00:43  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Well it is the Holy sea after all :)

Whilst popemobile still works as adjective (it never was pope motorvehicle) .Gondola also describes airship carriage . It is a gondola/boat , so I will pitch in with popeaquamobile ,probebly works in latin as well.

9 May 2011 at 02:35  
Anonymous jones said...

Ratz on a sinking ship.

9 May 2011 at 02:46  
Anonymous non mouse said...

El Papa Sea Tow.

9 May 2011 at 04:01  
Anonymous Gordo said...

Being infallible, could he not simply walk?

9 May 2011 at 05:21  
Anonymous Dreadnaught said...

'I'M POPE(YE) THE HOLY MAN
I LIVE IN THE VATICAN
I THOUGHT THAT I AUGHTA
STAY OUT OF THE WATER
I'M POPE(YE) THE HOLY MAN'

9 May 2011 at 08:18  
Blogger William said...

Is he sitting on the pope deck?

9 May 2011 at 08:22  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Ark Papal

9 May 2011 at 09:49  
Blogger English Viking said...

With a bit of luck the Northern League will mistake him for a Libyan asylum seeker and sink it.

Just think of the pollution clean-up cost though.

The headlines could read "Religious maniac responsible for the deaths of thousands buried at sea'.

Oh, we did that last week.

9 May 2011 at 10:37  
Blogger killemallletgodsortemout said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9 May 2011 at 11:40  
Blogger killemallletgodsortemout said...

That poor Cardinal. Why did he have to swim alongside?

9 May 2011 at 11:42  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

Mr Rebel Saint -- please stop it.

9 May 2011 at 11:50  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Atlas Shrugged hopes for dangerous obstacles to surround the pope and proceeds to wonder aloud why he would consider himself in danger.
About as reasonable as an Ayn Rand book.
Martyrdom is a gift, yes, but life is equally a gift and ought to be cherished. Martyrdom is an offering to God only because life has value; it's not to be sought for spectacle but only for faith and principle, which would not be served by some haphazard murder. And I'm sure that the pope wouldn't wish murder on the conscience of any man. Atlas Shrugged would do well to ensure that he gives death no positive value, for that way lies a rejection of God's gifts.
The vessel is of course the ark of the convenant upon which the pope performs petrine piracy (upon anglo-catholics) in his role as fisher of men.
As Joyce said, "after all, the Holy Roman Catholic Apostolic Church was built on a pun. It ought to be good enough for me"

9 May 2011 at 12:08  
Blogger UKViewer said...

Holy Dhow?

9 May 2011 at 12:30  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why use a boat, I thought he had Papal Inflatability.

9 May 2011 at 12:54  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Good to see the Holy Father enjoying himself in the sunshine.

Have to say, for one awful moment, I thought he was 'crossing the Tiber'. Thank God it was a trip around Venice.

May God Bless him.

9 May 2011 at 14:06  
Blogger Scriblerus Minor said...

Th'English Viking screeches, screams, and roars;
'Tis pity his invective so greatly BORES.

9 May 2011 at 15:06  
Blogger English Viking said...

There was a scribe that was minor,
was punched in the face, got a shiner,
when he started to cry,
there was no wonder why,
'cus he sounds like a bit of a whiner.

9 May 2011 at 15:42  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

English Viki do sit down and silence that orifice of yours!

9 May 2011 at 16:01  
Blogger English Viking said...

Doodoo,

Calm down, dear.

9 May 2011 at 16:51  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

English Viki,
'Tis a pity,
Thinks he's witty
His talk's so s**ty,
Poor ole English Viki.

9 May 2011 at 17:24  
Blogger English Viking said...

Doodoo,

If you've got a dictionary, look up 'meter'.

I'll give you a clue; it's not 100 centimetres.

9 May 2011 at 17:32  
Blogger Scriblerus Minor said...

The Jute now this Scribe's game doth try to play,
With nought but dire limericks to say;
A Dunce's mating-cry, for sure -
There is no other term for such manure -
He 'gainst Scriblerus tunes his fretful harp,
Delivering his Hipocrytic Carp;
For if 'twere I who now shouldst weeping be,
'Twould be but at his dreadful poetry.

9 May 2011 at 17:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I can't help noticing that the pope seems to like being surrounded by hunky Italian men dressed in white. Who could forget the rapt attention he, and especially one of his cardinals, was giving those shirtless, muscular acrobats at the end of last year? :)

9 May 2011 at 18:11  
Blogger English Viking said...

Scrofulous Whiner,

I'm not a Jute, I'm Anglo-Saxon/Norse.

Jutes come from Jutland (Strange that, eh?). Modern-day Denmark.

8 Line AA, BB, CC, DD? Seven ten syllable lines and one of eight?

Are you sure you know what you're talking about?

Google 'iambic pentameter' for a little, desperately needed help.

9 May 2011 at 18:24  
Anonymous non mouse said...

I see the pigeon's been at the establishment again. papa's not pigeon-towed, is he?

9 May 2011 at 18:40  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"To Albion" they shrieked aloud, cast loft
their banner and threw caution to the winds
their swarthy faces rich and full from trough,
rugged, unkempt, all knotted and thick-skinned,
ungentle, unlovely, all-hallowing,
broken from fight and heading for the grave,
unmarried, unwelcome, every last knave
they sail for rape and they battle for bling.

They knew not our God, they've nothing to boast,
their ugly brutality plagued our coast,
their children were made from coupling unwed,
strange thing indeed to be proud to be bred.

To an English Viking, with levity and fondness, from a longtime blog reader

9 May 2011 at 19:04  
Anonymous Oswin said...

English Viking :

I'm a cute Angle too. :o)

9 May 2011 at 19:09  
Blogger English Viking said...

Oswin,

Acute, or obtuse?

9 May 2011 at 19:19  
Blogger English Viking said...

Anon 19:04

Very good. :-)

9 May 2011 at 19:23  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can't believe no one's said it yet...

The Barque of Benedict???

:)

9 May 2011 at 19:27  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

The Norse god Thor decided to become a mortal for a while and went down to earth. He met a beautiful girl and they spent the night together.

In the morning Thor decided to reveal his identity to the woman. "I'm Thor" he said. "You're thor!" she said, "Lithen buthter, I'm tho thor I can hardly thit down!"

9 May 2011 at 19:42  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Wonder if it comes with a modern music system or just the sistine chapel choir in a barge behind.

Wouldn't it be great if the oars are only for show and it's really a pope pedalo.

"Come in number XVI, your hour is up"

Ernsty

9 May 2011 at 21:47  
Blogger English Viking said...

ESB + T,

Just glanced at your comment, and at first look thought it said 'pope peado".

No, really!

9 May 2011 at 22:57  
Blogger Scriblerus Minor said...

Sir, I shall accept no remonstration
From one who cannot master punctuation.

9 May 2011 at 23:32  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9 May 2011 at 23:39  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

There once was a Norsey named Viki
Who thought he was funny and witty
Little did he know
His arse from his elbow,
And spent his whole life being a ccmplete tw*t.

9 May 2011 at 23:45  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

EV

You scared the life out of me, my boy..Had visions of countlesss comments immediately underneath your's from Last Dodo, Scriblerus Minor, etc coming after Ernst.

Thank goodness you didn't think I had said "Wouldn't it be great if the whores are only for show' as well.

It appears you have all the 'limerick luvvies' after you tonight.lol.
Could be worse, they could have limericked you in latin!

You know how to stir the tiberians up, you naughty lad.

Is it a gift?

Ernst.

10 May 2011 at 00:38  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...
"EV ... Is it a gift"

No .. he's just not a smug smart arse, like some.

10 May 2011 at 01:16  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dear Kaput Birdie

"No .. he's just not a smug smart arse, like some." LOL. Perceptive as well. Bless you.

A question. 9 May 2011 23:45
Aren't limericks supposed to rhyme and be funny. Or is Ernst being a tad pedantic?

Ernsty, my fine ruffled fowl.

ps

You Tiberians are sooo predictable, so much so, that if you were lunch, you would be self basting.

10 May 2011 at 01:26  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...
"Aren't limericks supposed to rhyme and be funny. Or is Ernst being a tad pedantic?"

Are they?

And people with your history are unpredictable because they change their allegiances depending on the way the wind blows!

10 May 2011 at 01:46  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"Are they?" YES!

"And people with your history are unpredictable because they change their allegiances depending on the way the wind blows!" You are being your usual obtusus self and are self basting nicely!
If you must throw sarcastic remarks, elucidate them, my sweet likkle dickie bird.

Ernst can think of nothing worse than being a humourless tiberian..a cold shiver just ran down Ernst's back at the mere thought.

Dulcis avium dormire bene.

Ernsty.

10 May 2011 at 02:09  
Blogger English Viking said...

Scrofulous Whiner,

Sir, I shall accept no correction,
from followers of papal direction.

PS If you want to critise punctuation, probably best you get your own correct first, eh?

10 May 2011 at 12:17  
Blogger English Viking said...

Doodoo,

Perusing your recent comments, according to you I am 'a smug smart-arse, a complete tw+t and I talk shi++y'.

Now that's just not nice, is it? But hardly unexpected. Once the thin façade of jovial sociability has been pierced by a few home truths about the vile canker that is the RCC, you resort to personal abuse.

Bit daft, really.

BTW Ernst was correct; they should at least rhyme.

10 May 2011 at 12:26  
Blogger English Viking said...

Doodoo,

I retract the allegation that you called me a 'smug smart arse', it was completely the opposite.

You did imply that I speak from my fundament though. So not much better.

10 May 2011 at 12:29  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

English Viki said ...
" ... you resort to personal abuse."

Pot - kettle.

10 May 2011 at 12:35  
Blogger English Viking said...

Doodoo,

I'd be grateful if you show where I have ever referred to you as a tw+t, or any other four-letter word for that matter.

I abuse your 'church', because it abuses the Bible (and children).

I have not resorted to flat out swearing (at you). Yet.

Apologise.

10 May 2011 at 12:46  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Viki, Viki, you're always throwing personal abuse around! Must I really scroll through your endless posts to demonstrate this? To be honest, I just cannot be bothered.

Interesting too that you think 'tw*t' is a swear word. Besides with an 'a' it wouldn't ryme!

10 May 2011 at 13:11  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...
""And people with your history are unpredictable because they change their allegiances depending on the way the wind blows!" You are being your usual obtusus self ... If you must throw sarcastic remarks, elucidate them ..."

Based on your fanciful 'biography' where you claim to be a Polish national and mercenary double-dealing spy who sold your country out and sided with whoever you thought was might win the war.

10 May 2011 at 13:41  
Blogger English Viking said...

Doodoo,

In what way do Viki, witty and tw*t (a or i) rhyme?

You cannot show a single incidence of me directly swearing at you.

You are as most cat-licks, a liar.

10 May 2011 at 13:47  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Viki, do calm down or you might have a nastsy accident with that axe as you stand up!

When have I ever accussed you swearing? Personal abuse flows from you like a man with dysentry and what constitutes 'swearing' is a matter of opinion.

The term 'liar' is objectionable and your use of it shows you are a man without honour.

As for tw*t rhyming, well, irony of irony, I never intended it too!

Now do sit down and give your 'mouth' a rest, there's a good little Viki.

10 May 2011 at 16:25  
Blogger English Viking said...

Lying. It's in a cat-licks DNA.

10 May 2011 at 17:00  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Viki ... wondering about another little poem especially for you.

Now, what rhyms with 'merchant banker'?

10 May 2011 at 17:44  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr English Viking,

Could you please cease this puerile drivel and raise the tenor of your contributions? His Grace's blog aspires to be a place of reasoned and intelligent debate. Bless you.

10 May 2011 at 18:03  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 May 2011 at 18:10  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Sincere apologies Mr AB Cranmer for lowering the tone of your
high-minded and celestial pointing blog.

My only excuse, poor though it is, was provokation I have been enduring. I am sure you will agree it is not just my posts that lack reason and intelligence.

Bless you for chastising me. I feel chastened, if not disciplined.

10 May 2011 at 18:22  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Oooops .... I will not delete or retract my apology Mr AB Cranmer, but I've just noticed your request was directed at my good friend Viki.

I admit to being as bad as him in lowering the tone here and, like all good Catholics I have freely confessed my sin.

10 May 2011 at 18:26  
Blogger English Viking said...

Your Grace,

I feel like a naughty schoolboy who has stuck his tongue out at the class creep and has had the chalk thrown at him by Sir.

I would apologise, but I'm not sorry.

I will try to refrain in future though, if that is any use?

10 May 2011 at 18:30  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

You are not my friend. Just so we're clear.

10 May 2011 at 18:32  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Viki

It takes a real man to apologise and a true Christian to accept friendship from someone in disagreement with you.

10 May 2011 at 18:38  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

Unity at the cost of truth will lead to tears before bedtime.

Apologising when one is not sorry is commonly known as lying. I may be many horrible things, but liar is not one of them.

Now I did say I would attempt to refrain from grating His Grace's nerves in future, so I'll call it a day on this one.

10 May 2011 at 18:55  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

English Viking

There can be personal harmony rather than emnity dispite differences in doctrine.

And true, an apology needs an examination of behaviour and remorse before it can be truthfully offered.

10 May 2011 at 19:04  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

The 'Real' Last Dodo? 10 May 2011 13:41

"Based on your fanciful 'biography' where you claim to be a Polish national and mercenary double-dealing spy who sold your country out and sided with whoever you thought was might win the war."

TLD.

Can you keep a secret, a bit like one of your unbiblically founded confessional priests must.

I am NOT Ernst Stavro Blofeld. *Shock/Horror music*

I know, I know.

However, the Genius DanJO revealed this weeks ago by secular sound reasoning ( what possessed me to think I could hide it from his deep empirical scrutiny ) but I am still 'Gutted and Outed' but once again, very relieved that I no longer have to live this lie.

DanJO is obviously Sherlock Holmes the Genius but are you Father Brown incognito?

Bless You.

From a person who is NOT a Polish national and mercenary double-dealing spy and who has NOT sold His country out and sided with whoever He thought might win the war between 1939-1945! *sob*

Your Grace's comments noted 10 May 2011 18:03 but just to clarify for TLD. Over and out.

10 May 2011 at 22:50  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"I am NOT Ernst Stavro Blofeld."

You're not telling me people use pseudoyms on here are you? How interesting!

By the way, the Sacrament of Reconciliation does have a Biblical basis.

"Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." (John 20:22-23)

11 May 2011 at 01:09  
Blogger Mark in Spokane said...

The barque of St. Peter...

11 May 2011 at 05:11  
Anonymous len said...

In John 20:22-23 Jesus first invested the disciples with the power of the Holy Spirit, and immediately conveyed the ability to either forgive sins or not. This simply means that they were being empowered to bring people into the Church. Any time we “bring someone to the Lord” by saying the sinner’s prayer with them, we are exercising the same power.

This is not an issue of confessing to a priest and doing whatever penance He determines to receive forgiveness. 1 John 1:9 says we can confess our sins directly to the Lord and are immediately forgiven without prejudice. No third party is necessary to accomplish this.

11 May 2011 at 07:53  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

len said ...

Now I really think you are stretching the understanding of John 20: 22-23! It clearly invests the Apostles (and Catholics believe there successors) with an earthly responsibility to forgive sins.

Read in conjunction with the authority given to St Peter, it is clear the Apostles were given by Christ authority on earth to determine what was sinful and what was not.

"And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." (Matthew 16:19)

John 1:9 is far less definite. It lends itself to your 'private confession' interpretation, granted, but also the one given above and is consistent with it. Your interpretation does seem to contradict the above and is certainly not how the early church understood eithe private or public confession.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all iniquity." (John 1:9)

11 May 2011 at 17:46  
Anonymous len said...

Dodo,
The authority given to Peter is the authority given to all who have revelation as the true identity of Jesus Christ.

The' point stretching 'is when the popes took this authority for themselves,and built a religious system on it!.

11 May 2011 at 20:32  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

len said ...

So everybody's reading of scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit regardless of the understandings of others? All are equal in 'binding' and 'loosening'? Personal revelation and private decision making is everything? I don't think so! When there are fundamental differences just who decides? This is a recipe for spiritual anarchy and confusion.

I think the protestant reformers would take issue with such a liberal reading of scripture.

The quoted texts are in plain English and can be plainly understood. The Church and NOT the Popes understood the authority and leadership invested by Christ in the Apostles and St Peter.

11 May 2011 at 21:00  
Anonymous len said...

Dodo ,
I expect anyone reading the constant'discussions' between Catholics and Protestants will deduce that because even we( the religious) cannot agree between ourselves then what`s the point of them(the secular) even trying to understand.
It gives me no great pleasure to disagree with you and I have strived in the past to find some sort of harmony, some sort of agreement.I am not sure what good it does to do 'our dirty washing 'in public.
However I cannot just 'stand by and see error held up as 'truth.'.

God states quite clearly that His intention is that He (God) will put His law in the hearts and minds of His people who will then all know Him.

(Jeremiah 31:31-34)
This applies of course to Born -again , Spirit filled believers)


Catholicism, (and other religions to be fair) stand between God and the sinner much as the old Testament Priests,and act as 'middle men'which gives them a position of Power and control over the people.


Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NKJV) "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. "No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
.....
And in anticipation;
Galatians 3:6-7 (NKJV) just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

11 May 2011 at 21:02  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

len said ...

I take your point and we are simply repeating centuries of theological debate. However, for me and for many christians, Anglicans included, the words of Christ are clear and without complication about the role of the church before His return.

Take issue with the history of Catholicism and the behaviour of particular Popes, many Catholics would too, but throughout the New Testament it is clear Christ established an Apostolic church with authority to lead men to salvation and to adapt to changing circumstances. You'll know the passages as I've posted them here before.

The Catholic church may have the balance wrong between priests and laity - we are all prophets, priests and kings - but, for me, I'll wait for the church knowing it continues to be guided by the Holy Spirit.

No 'Ninety-Five Theses' from me!

I don't think reasoned and polite discussion about our differences discredits christianity. It's when it descends into personal abuse that we offend Christ and His message.

11 May 2011 at 23:03  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

len said ...

The Biblical text I cited lends itself to easy interpretation. It's unambiguous and I can't figure how you arrived at your understanding!

Read it alongside and it's all pretty clear:

"And whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound, even in heaven. And whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed, even in heaven.”

Christ established His church and invested it with His authority until His return.

The passage you cite is part of a more general treatise on sin and the need to recognise we all have sin. It does not support your interpretation as it says nothing on the process of confession, just the need to confess:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all iniquity."

13 May 2011 at 23:48  
Anonymous len said...

Dodo,
Christ established his'church'.By this I suppose you mean the R C'church.?.I think the word 'church' sums up the R C organisation perfectly.Church” is a very early English word that means “circle” (the shape of a circle), while the Greek word translated “church” is “ekklesia” and means “called out ones,” and more properly answers to the English words: congregation, assembly or group.
Now concerning the word “church,” Professor Smith of Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible states that “church” comes from a word meaning “circle,” which is akin to our word “circus.” Professor Lipsius (German theologian during the Reformation) also shows that “church” came from “circle.” Professor A. F. Fausett of Home Bible Study Dictionary” agrees with Professor Lipsius. The exhaustive ten volume Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature under the word “church” states that:

“It was probably connected with the Latin circus, circulus, and with the Greek kuklos. Lipsius, who was the first to reject the received tradition, was probably right in his suggestion” (Vol. II, p. 322).
This makes it quite plain that the R Church(or Circus) is certainly NOT the congregation that Jesus gave His authority to.
Also;In Scotland the Church it is called the“Kirk” and in Gemany it is “Kirche,” in England it is the word “Circe” (the “c” having a “k” sound).

But according to Robert Brown’s book, “Kirke/Circe” was also the name of a Goddess.

Kirke or Circe was the daughter of the Sun god, who was famous for taming wild animals for her circus. But get ready for this: Circe is pictured holding a golden cup in her hand mixed with wine and drugs, by which she controlled the kings of the world. Now where have we heard that before?
..........
Binding and loosing(do you know that no-one has ever agreed as to the true interpretation of this? Hillel bound what Shammai loosed.The controversy continues today.

Jesus gave His Authority to ALL born again Christians.

The Catholic Church is built upon a compromise between 'christianity and paganism and has no 'authority other than which it has stolen and claimed for herself.

14 May 2011 at 06:35  
Anonymous len said...

The Church as distinct from the 'congregation of Christ)had its origins with Constantine who wanted a 'religion'he could control, and could control people with.Constantine was no fool and observed the meekness of Christians and decided he could use this to his own purposes.Hence the hierarchy of priests, which is basically a powers structure to control the people, with Caesar (the Pope) at its head.
Hence the 'church' was created.A man made organisation to control people.
You cannot join the 'congregation of Christ' you have to be born into it!.
......
King James carried on the tradition of the'church' as a means of control, when the King James Bible was published it was very important for them to retain the word "church" because they had jurisdiction over it, so King James made fifteen specific edicts, as far as the translation goes, and one of those edicts (edict number three) stated that this bible was to retain the word "church" in the translation and it was not to be replaced with the word "congregation." That was his specific edict. He has no jurisdiction over the congregation (people), but he does over the church (physical buildings).

14 May 2011 at 08:30  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

len said ...

Lot of twisting and turning here! You can argue about the meaning of words but the meaning of Christ is self apparent in this.

Discuss church history all you like - that's a different matter and no doubt the leaders of Christ's church will have to account for their actions - but don't try to corrupt the meaning of Christ's great commission to Peter and the Apostles.

14 May 2011 at 13:08  
Anonymous len said...

No Dodo that already been done, courtesy of the RC`s.

(would tell you what the WV was but modesty forbids it!)

14 May 2011 at 13:17  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

len said ...

"Jesus gave His Authority to ALL born again Christians."

But aren't all christians born again in Christ? Or is it only those you define as 'born again'?

So we've all got equal authority? Why then can't all christians agree on meaning of Christ's words if we all possess the same Spirit?

No ... sorry ... there are numerous passages in the Bible making it clear Christ established a church (congregation/body) with Apostolic leadership, teachers and theologians.

What you're proposing is a recipe for anarchy and for leading people away from the truth.

15 May 2011 at 00:55  
Anonymous len said...

Dodo,
Jesus said"You must be born again".

Born from above ,
"Born from the Spirit of God"

The Holy Spirit takes up residence within the believer.
Then;
Jesus said, ‘When he, the Spirit of truth has come, he will guide you into all truth’ (John 16:13). The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth. He is truth essentially in himself, and he is the one who leads us( born again believers) into all truth.

But what does Jesus mean by ‘all truth’? He does not mean ‘all truth’ absolutely. The Holy Spirit’s work is not to lead us into all historical, geographical, astronomical and mathematical truth. The Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truth concerning the mysteries of the kingdom of God, of the gospel, of the counsel of God about salvation through the finished work of Christ (Acts 20:27). The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth necessary for faith and obedience (Acts 20:21).

The Holy Spirit ( The Spirit of God)contains EVERYTHING needed for salvation.In Him (Christ) whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.(Colossians 2:3)
There are three errors to avoid. Some pretend to be guided by the Spirit and neglect the written Word. Some despise the teaching of the Spirit and trust to their own understanding of the Word. Others reject both the Spirit and the Word and go after another rule and guide.

To none of these is the promise of the Spirit given. They are left to their foolish, corrupt imaginations.

Scripture is the believer’s rule and the Holy Spirit is his guide.

(This is not the prescription for anarchy, quite the reverse in fact, for those led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God.)

I Realise that it must be quite scary for someone to leave their'comfort zone'and to step out in faith trusting God alone but this is the way prescribed by God not man.

When the Spirit of God is ALL you've got you will realise that HE is more than adequate for any situation that might arise.

15 May 2011 at 08:54  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

len said ...

So how does someone know they're 'born again'?

Is it a single event?

Does it mean they never sin again?

Does it replace the need for baptism by water?

And, why do so many people who are 'born again' disagree about the truth?

15 May 2011 at 12:55  
Anonymous len said...

Hello again Mr Dodo,

Sorry about the break( been having a knee op)

So how does anyone know they are born again?.
Well without trying to sound too much like a nutter, I encountered (in a vision) the risen Lord after much seeking and soul searching.
Also,'The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Romans 8:16.
The re-birth takes place on our Spirit.Our soul(mind, will,and emotions) are unaffected at the time of re-birth.There is a life long process of the sanctification of the soul.
Can a born again believer still sin and be draw to sin?.Yes!,if he walks in the 'flesh' which is to follow his 'natural self', his natural instincts.
But if the born again believer ALLOWS the Holy Spirit total control over his soul the Holy Spirit will display the fruit of the spirit which is Love,Joy Peace etc.
Once born again the Believers Spirit is perfected for Eternity,his soul is BEING saved, and his body will be saved.
........
I suppose people who are born again do not always follow the Spirit and when'walking in the flesh' project their own 'Soulish,natural opinions' which conflict with the Truth.

(I don`t always get it right an I apologise if I might seem a 'tad' confrontational at times

Bless You len.

18 May 2011 at 10:55  
Anonymous len said...

Dodo,
Forgot the bit about water baptism,

Water baptism for infants although a 'nice gesture'does not (IMO)constitute a Christian.

One has to become a certain age when they are held accountable(by God) for their misdoings.Then one can come to a decision to repent and accept Christ.This is a conscious repentance, a decision made by those seeking Christ.
Then full immersion baptism is a public pronouncement of their dying with Christ (going under the water) and rising again(coming out of the water) with Christ renewed, redeemed.

18 May 2011 at 11:04  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

len said ...

Thanks for your honest answer, much of which I understand if not fully accept.

The only thing that concerns me is the process of being 'born again'. It isn't always a once in a life time event as shown in Acts when Peter converted thousands through the power of argument and his sermon.

Baptism by water we'll never agree on as I believe all, regardless of age, are reborn in Christ through baptism by joining Him in His death.

I am relieved too that you accept that people reborn still have to contend with the temptations of the flesh.

Complex issues which, no doubt, we'll disgree on in the future!

God Bless.

19 May 2011 at 22:06  
Blogger The Last Dodo said...

Ps

Hope your knee is okay. Now if you were a Catholic, that would be a serious handicap!

Thank God for small mercies, as my mother used to say.

19 May 2011 at 22:08  

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