Monday, June 27, 2011

Greece lightning


Anyone with half a brain knows the euro cannot survive in its present form. Greece is insolvent, broke, bankrupt: its government cannot repay its debts and will never be able to do so. Pumping in bailouts of billions of euros may make the country liquid for a time, but it is nothing but political sticking plaster. It will not improve solvency; it merely delays the inevitable.

When a nation does not bear the consequences of its actions, its behaviour is distorted. ‘Moral hazard’ is a natural consequence of insulating the profligate from punitive judgement. Greece would have behaved differently if its people had been fully exposed from the outset to the risk, because pain encourages responsibility.

When we do not bear the consequences of our actions, there emerges a false sense of security. While abortion and the ‘morning-after’ pill are available on-tap, why not indulge in endless irresponsible sex? And so it is with the EU and the IMF granting Greece another bailout, another abortion, because the consequences of delivering the child of default are too frightening to contemplate.

But that baby will be born: default is inevitable. And when the lightning strikes Athens, the thunder will reverberate throughout Europe – principally in Lisbon, Rome, Dublin and Madrid. And the gathering storm will make the collapse of Lehman Brothers seem like a walk in the park. For when the banks of Portugal, Italy, Ireland and Spain begin to teeter, there isn’t a nation in Europe which will escape the gathering storm.

The euro was always a gamble, especially for the Hellenic branch of the Indo-European family. Why they ever ditched their ancient drachma – the currency of Plato, Ptolemy and Alexander the Great – is a mystery, and evidence, if any were needed, that they don’t deserve the Elgin Marbles. A nation which loses its marbles and squanders its sovereignty without regard for its unique heritage as the cradle of Western civilisation – the birthplace of democracy, the fount of Western philosophy and literature, the creator of the Olympic Games, the originator of historiography, political science, mathematical principles, and our dramatic traditions of tragedy and comedy – does not deserve much sympathy for its economic woes.

The introduction of the euro artificially decreased the interest rates of many EU members countries, in particular those with a weak currency. The countries who benefited the most from this decrease were Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, and Italy.

And which countries are now carrying insupportable debt and suffering intolerable deficits?

Just to fulfil the dream of being at ‘the heart of Europe’.

And, bizarrely, while Greece now struggles to survive amidst public sector strikes, austerity measures including pay freezes, tax hikes and extensions to the official retirement age, soaring unemployment and civil unrest, Tony Blair still believes the UK should ultimately join the euro.

He talks of the need for a secure foundation – the rock of EU-wide economic governance. The single currency was built on sand: it was destined to founder without political union, which will now arise.

But remove from a nation the right to set its own interest rates to suit its own domestic economy, and in times of turmoil it is left either to tinker with taxation or slash spending. Since the people are not particularly disposed either to high rates of taxation or to cuts in their public services, disquiet turns into protests; protests become marches; marches become riots; riots become social turmoil.

And social turmoil slips into civil war, which is precisely what looms.

Never forget that the EU’s answer to the EU’s problems is invariably ‘more Europe’: every crisis is an opportunity for more regulation and centralisation. And the sovereign debt crisis that threatens to engulf European financial markets is no exception. The eurozone will be stabilised economically in accordance with Bundesbank discipline and bound politically by Teutonic politico-militarism. The German constitutional court would have it no other way.

All it will lack is a leader, an emperor, a religio-political philosopher-king of sufficient stature to strut after the fashion of Napoleon, to hold the allegiance of the people führer-like, and to lift them out of the economic morass in which they have sunk.

But he is surely coming.

When a government guarantees the liabilities of a financial institution, it risks weakening the currency and causing an increase in interest rates, with all the consequent unemployment, recession, inflation and increased poverty. This is an undoubted moral issue, for people are reduced to hardship and depression, firms are condemned to closure, more workers to unemployment and more families to homelessness through unprecedented levels of repossession. The total number of suicides, heart attacks, divorces and mental breakdowns is never known.

God cares for the poor, the oppressed, and the underdogs in society. He pours his wrath upon those who corrupt justice or create economic machines designed to provide more wealth for the wealthy and deprive the poor. The story of Naboth’s vineyard in 1 Kings 21 establishes that authorities are not free to pursue any policy they please or to ride roughshod over the rights of the poor. These same concerns are vehemently expressed by the prophets Amos, Hosea, Isaiah and Micah, writing in the 8th century BC. God demands conscience above political conviction, and a government which places narrow economic considerations above liberty and justice is guilty of worshipping Mammon above God.

Perhaps the natural moral order demands that they be allowed to fail in order that the profligacy and irresponsibility of idolatry might be rectified. Bankruptcy is humiliating, but it is the only just corrective.

189 Comments:

Blogger Graham Davis said...

Wouldn’t it be a great idea to ask the Greek people what they want, admittedly they will be choosing between a rock and a hard place but if the implications of default v bailout were spelled out and if they then choose bailout they would at least realise why they would have to agree to the onerous terms. Default probably means loosing their savings, pensions and more besides so it may not look such an easy option.

Darwin taught us a lot more than just biology and I agree with your comments about moral hazard and that is why it is still imperative to cut all banks down to a size that is much less than the GDP of the country within which they operate, something all the governments affected by the financial crisis have failed to do.

27 June 2011 09:30  
Blogger Arden Forester said...

The trouble is that Europe is being run by people who use half their brain to deny reality and the other half to serve their own purpose.

I think it is corruption on a grand scale. Money is being created out of thin air on a daily basis. When things get rough for the corrupters they try to squeeze the taxpayer. If they had a functioning brain left it may well be trying to tell them this cannot go on.

Mrs Merkel looks like she has a good brain. Maybe she's gone through too many security devices and they have pickled it proper!

27 June 2011 10:03  
Anonymous graham wood said...

An excellent comment Cranmer and delivered with your usual clarity and verbal power.

How right your analysis:
"Never forget that the EU’s answer to the EU’s problems is invariably ‘more Europe’".

How true, and it emphasises the absurd but tragic folly of this power obsessed bureaucracy.
They never learn - more likely they are incapable.

The EU made the crassly foolish and major error of believing it could abolish the concept of the nation state , but forgot that nation states are comprised of people !
People who for the most part are deeply attached to their own culture, economy, history, and native customs and traditions.
They forgot too that national interest will always prevail over the artificial theories of bureaucracies with worn out ideologies.

27 June 2011 10:23  
Anonymous MrJ said...

"...don’t deserve the Elgin Marbles"... Trouble is (as above comments mention) all parties to the Treaties of this Union have been accomplices: they too have lost some marbles (dare we hope not all), including UK by and from Heath's Great Betrayal [European Communities] Act 1972.

Kýrie, eléison ... Κύριε, ελέησον.

27 June 2011 10:46  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cranmer said . . . ."All it will lack is a leader, an emperor, a religio-political philosopher-king of sufficient stature to strut after the fashion of Napoleon, to hold the allegiance of the people führer-like, and to lift them out of the economic morass in which they have sunk.

But he is surely coming. . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . . a government which places narrow economic considerations above liberty and justice is guilty of worshipping Mammon above God."

See 'The coming of the Man of Lawlessness' in II Thessalonions Chapter 2 verses 3 to 12.

27 June 2011 10:55  
Blogger Mr Lonely said...

first time here.. hehe.. =D

27 June 2011 10:58  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Where are all the pro-EU's now I wonder?

Damo

27 June 2011 11:15  
Anonymous Dreadnaught said...

Corruption in Greece is on a par with Afghanistan. Until they sort themselves of they should be suspended from the EU. They lied about their eligibility for monetary union in 20002 because it was seen as a money fountain too good to miss out on.

Public employees retiring at 50 - millionaires scamming the taxman and politicians stuffing their overseas bank accounts like Santa stuffs his sack.

China seems happy to buy into their situation though - how long before Rhodes or Corfu is exchanged for cash handouts. May be we could let China have the Isle of Wight on similar terms that we had over Hong Kong.

We should get out of the EU now and start dealing with BRIC direct ourselves.

Vote UKip.

27 June 2011 11:28  
Anonymous JayBee said...

The “emperor” of the EU is a puppet. The real power rests with a collective of “Princes” that have been pursuing their own agendas and consequently muddling the drive for ever closer union. They knew that there was no economic convergence when the Euro was launched and have spent the intervening years fiddling while their empire was quietly smouldering instead of ensuring that dangerous economic exposure was being counterbalanced by fiscal and political integration. In my estimation they have left it too late to pull off political union before the whole edifice collapses under the weight of its accumulated liabilities.

As His Grace suggests the whole continent now faces turmoil and looming civil strife. Fortunately for us the EU's enforcement apparatus is not commensurate with its totalitarian aims. In relation to its size the EU is militarily weak. It does not have a large standing army or a significant continent wide riot control force. In any case the consequences of using EU military from some nations against EU citizens of another would definitely not be conducive to restoration of unity. No, the EU has already succeeded in balkanising the continent through mass immigration and economic divergence so their chances of holding the enterprise together in the face of serious unrest look pretty slim.

What is going to emerge from all this is impossible to say. Every attempt to unify Europe since the breakup of the Roman Empire has ended in failure. Nevertheless European history warns us that ruthless political and military opportunists emerge from anarchy. When the most notorious of these was about to scramble what was left of his brain with a bullet one of his entourage asked him to whom they should now give their allegiance to which he replied enigmatically, “the coming man.” We have been warned.

27 June 2011 12:00  
Anonymous nicodemus said...

In the light of the book of Revelation it appears that a centralized and political edifice, a tower of babel, will arise. The question is whether this present EUSSR is that wicked and corrupt superpower, or just another precursor.

27 June 2011 12:10  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Forgot to add that according to Stefan Homburg (Institute of Public Finance, Leibniz University) as reported in Der Spiegel, the Lisbon Treaty prohibits assistance payments, i.e. bailouts, and if the EU said ‘no bailout’, the banks would be responsible.

The question is whether the pols are moral cowards or legally and financially illiterate, or merely ill-advised.

27 June 2011 12:21  
Blogger English Viking said...

I can't wait for the default. The whole world will then see that Greece is far better off out than in, and then other countries will want to leave, too.

War is inevitable.

27 June 2011 12:51  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

English Viking

"War is inevitable."

Who is going to fight whom, and over what issue? Are you saying that certain countries will invade other countries to enforce political union?

carl

27 June 2011 13:02  
Anonymous DanJ0 said...

Viking: "I can't wait for the default. The whole world will then see that Greece is far better off out than in, and then other countries will want to leave, too."

The other option is for Germany to leave although I doubt France will be too happy if that happens. The Euro needs to devalue and it is held artificially high by Germany. It will cost Germany whatever happens, perhaps the Mark-Euro exchange hit is a bit more preferable in the long run.

27 June 2011 13:30  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

The problem with Greece, unlike Lisbon, Rome, Dublin or Madrid, is that they cooked their books on a grand scale to get into the €uro - and now its been exposed. What do you do? Charge a nation with fraud?

The real problem is that if the €uro collapses it will take the Pound with it - and quite possibly the Almighty Dollar as well.

There are three options - kick the Greeks out and let them sink; break up the €urozone so the Northern and Western (solvent) States are the "Real" €urozone and let the Irish, Spanish, Portugese, Italians and greeks revert to their original currency units; or Germany, France, Netherlands, etc all adopt their original currency units...

All of these are fraught with risk for the entire Western economy. This really is a case of "send not to ask for whom the bell tolls" - it tolls for all of us.

27 June 2011 13:32  
Blogger English Viking said...

Carl,

Certain countries will be 'invited' to help quell 'unrest', a 'peace-keeping mission'.

People have noted that the English are too passive to start another civil war. They appear not to have noticed that this is because there is an abundance of food and shelter, with benefits for those who either cannot or will not work. When these things disappear, when interest rates are set at their correct, currently double-digit levels, when mass-repossessions and starvation starts to occur, people will get very nasty indeed.

Police will be on strike, as the Gov will have no money to pay them, and peoples' anger as to what has been done to them and their nation will boil over into all out rebellion.

Germany will head the EU on its own in a few years time. They are already printing Reichsmarks again, which is illegal. They'll have their European Empire, and we will not only give them what we fought 2 terrible wars to prevent, we'll pay them for pleasure too.

27 June 2011 13:33  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

One more thought - it has emerged that the rarest thing in Greece is a man - any man - who pays his tax ...

A lesson there for the rest of us perhaps?

Just think how many unemployed civil service parasites it would create!

27 June 2011 13:35  
Anonymous IanCad said...

"For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." 1 Thess. 5:3

When the majority discount the possibility of strife it's time to take for the hills.
Any form of conflict within the EU would be, in essence, a civil war. The very worst kind of conflict.
Democracies are unpredictable and tend to reflect the shallowness and flightiness of their respective electorates.
An economic collapse in the EU, of the same magnitude as that in the USA would likely cause,at the least, serious unrest.

27 June 2011 13:42  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

O your Grace, this is possibly your best yet. Apocalyptic, prophetic, fiscally realistic and ethically responsible. You are in fine form, Most Reverend Father in God.

Why Great Britain ever abandoned her Commonwealth and joined herself to a Continent that has repeatedly tried to enslave her (the Armada, Napoleon, Bismark, Hitler, the EU) is beyond this simple New Zealander in exile to fathom.

27 June 2011 13:43  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

Good post your emminence,jaybee,you do not honestly think that this nation of jelly bellies will resist do you?The Englishmans courage these days resides in a pint glass,he may however push his womenfolk to the front of the battle-line,but for himself beer fueled talk is as far as it goes,he is just as likely to stab his own people in the back as the enemy,and the eussr has plenty of slavic mercenaries who will not scruple at killing civilians,exercises for this scenario have already taken place in scotland two years ago,which were hushed up when these subhumans began intimidating ordinary motorists with automatic weapons,so the eussr is fully prepared to snuff as many plebs as it needs to,some of us intend to resist,but the majority might as well surrender and keep out of our way.

27 June 2011 13:46  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

He don’t fret guys, that nice Mr Wen Jiabao said he would help out the Euro and the £ (as long as we keep quiet about his human rights record). Well it’s only a few peace campaigners (and we get rid of those), a chubby artist with a bead fetish, oh and a small far-away Lamadom that was really always part of China anyway. So what’s all the fuss about, they have lots of shiny new Yen and we are broke. “Moral high ground”, “ethical foreign policy”, no sorry mate, no idea what you are talking about!

27 June 2011 14:22  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Anon said
"Cranmer said . . . ."All it will lack is a leader, an emperor, a religio-political philosopher-king of sufficient stature to strut after the fashion of Napoleon, to hold the allegiance of the people führer-like, and to lift them out of the economic morass in which they have sunk.

But he is surely coming. . . . . . . . .

. . . . . . . . . . . a government which places narrow economic considerations above liberty and justice is guilty of worshipping Mammon above God."

See 'The coming of the Man of Lawlessness' in II Thessalonions Chapter 2 verses 3 to 12."

Irony is that His Grace has mentioned him and that he believes it would be a GOOD THING IF THE UK JOINED THE EURO.

Hmm. What interests Old Ernsty most is how will his political head wound be healed so that he will be forgiven and placed in power (it seems impossible to imagine the circumstances to achieve this). He will ride the whore until he has finished with it.

Very interesting times we live in!

Ernst my peeps.

27 June 2011 14:27  
Anonymous Angelo said...

I note that your Grace hints at a despotic fuerher like figure that will arise, and several others have thought along similar lines, princes and Euro Armies that will "restore order" at gunpoint.
Have we all suspended our minds, or is the truth too much to consider? Does not Revelation contain the warning of an antichrist (the Beast) that will arise in a time of great trouble and sieze power through the failed econommies of the world. Then having all, "Both rich and poor" subject to him, sets himself up as god?.
Coincidence? maybe, but is that coffee I can smell or a whiff of Sulphur?.

27 June 2011 14:33  
Blogger OldSouth said...

Well said, Your Grace.

27 June 2011 14:37  
Anonymous Tena Lady said...

its interesting and well judged analysis is reflecting in this writing.

27 June 2011 14:39  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

antichrist

I think he means me!

27 June 2011 14:53  
Anonymous berserker-nkl said...

There must be a lot of statues of APATE in Greece!

Eu States are meant to report budget deficits of more than 3% of GDP to Eurostat twice yearly.

But Eurostat has NO POWER to verify the figures independently, after member states rejected a proposal from the European Commission, the bloc's executive, to that effect in 2005.

Why?

27 June 2011 14:57  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

GD Said 27 June 2011 14:53

You only have his spirit, you are not HIM.

Ernst, my god denying rebellious communicant.

27 June 2011 14:58  
Blogger OldSouth said...

Apologies for posting twice, not intending to be a troll.

The word hubris comes to mind, does it not, Your Grace?

Was it not an act of hubris, from start to finish, for Greece to abandon the drachma, and willingly allow itself to be chained to Brussels?

The monstrosity of a building you wrote about in your previous post tells the tale in dramatic fashion.

Here is The West, unfettered by Christendom. Grandiose, inhuman, bankrupt, waiting for the other shoe to drop.

27 June 2011 14:59  
Anonymous Paul said...

The Greeks cannot have it both ways...And that is how they want it...Greece could drag all of Europe down in this financial mess...

27 June 2011 15:18  
Anonymous Jon said...

Your Grace, I'm afraid I don't agree.

Whilst for you as a Eurosceptic, Greece leaving the Euro would be politically desirable, for the Greeks, Euro exit without orderly default would be utter suicide. Their debt is largely Euro denominated, and so with a Euro exit, the "new drachma" would probably fall by 50% or so, doubling overnight greece's debt burdens and interest charges.

What is more, the problem of Greece's budget deficit would remain - and who would lend to Greece then? Your chosen option is simply the worst thing that could happen!

Sadly, the second worst is what's happening now - a form of water torture for Greek citizens and international bondholders alike. Pushing the problem back in time until it becomes unmanageable without fully federalising Greece (against the wills of the Greek and German people).

The most palatable option all round which you haven't explored, I suspect for politically expedient reasons, is that of orderly default. It's not an option that's likely to be around for much longer, but the French efforts this morning are essentially buying time for this to be explored more fully, I suspect.

It would expose banks in the Euro area to risk, but writing down Greek debt by, say, 50% would crystallise losses and allow investors to at least see something back for their pains, whilst alleviating the worst suffering of the Greek populace. It would also punish the banks involved, and ought to force some to close (though we all know that the big ones would get bailed out anyway). Disorderly default, which would inevitably follow from a simple Euro exit, and probably from the EU's current plan, will cause cataclysmic shockwaves to reverberate throughout the system (although Lehman was actually twice as large as Greece, loan asset wise!)

Additionally, there are numerous weaknesses in your arguments about the Euro's formation. Default doesn't depend on surrendering one's currency - Argentina managed to default whilst setting their own interest rates.

What's more, your admirable advocacy for localism aside, how local should interest rates be in Your Grace's view, I wonder? Certainly, the interest rates in North Wales shouldn't be the same as the ones in Knightsbridge if both populaces are to be well served? Should Sterling be broken up too then?

I fear that the addendum of the appeal to save the impoverished was the only possible tangent that Your Grace could find to connect a story of amoral bankers and amoral politicians to your religio-political agenda. In spite of my disagreeing with your findings, I'm glad that you found a way to incorporate them in your excellent blog.

27 June 2011 15:52  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Fantastic post YG, what is the difference between propping up Greece and propping up the banks?

The crisis is with usery, humans are just a commodity under corporate governance and wars are a way of them cashing in their chips.

27 June 2011 16:11  
Anonymous Oswin said...

An excellent analysis Your Grace; that is, as far as it goes, but it will 'go' much, much further than Greece.

Cameron has said 'no' to helping-out Greece by contributing to the Euro-zone bail-out, but he has NOT said no to an EU contribution which would include Britain.

Whatever the label, it will still be OUR money.

27 June 2011 16:14  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Gray Monk makes an excellent point about tax in Greece, taxation is embezzlement today, we are paying tribute to fraudulant corporate elites.

27 June 2011 16:35  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Aaaand another brilliant post. This modern Greek tragedy has been covered by many excellent conservative minds out there, Your Grace, but you verily take the proverbial cake.

I'm becoming quite a fan of yours, if not a shameless, toadying flatterer. I must also confess to ignoble feelings of jealousy. Try as I might, I still cannot approach, much less match, your uncanny skill at getting to the very heart of problems, at distilling complex issues to their vital and essential "spirits," and at emulating your seemingly effortless ability at laying things out logically and in a most digestible, pleasant and entertaining manner. Perhaps, before all else, I will need to muster the rich heritage of my traditions to address this aveirah of jealousy first!

27 June 2011 17:04  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

English Viking

Certain countries will be 'invited' to help quell 'unrest', a 'peace-keeping mission'.

There are some severe problems with this scenario.

1. It requires a competent professional military force. Those are hard to find in Europe outside of the UK. (OK, there is the FFL). Let's face facts. The Bundeswehr ain't the Wehrmacht.

2. That military force would be entrusted with enforcing martial law. In otherwords, it would be acting as a police force. That's not the best role for the military.

3. It would require a large force to completely enforce martial law. What nation has the political will to raise a large force to occupy a foreign country?

4. The occupying force would be required to use harsh measures to ensure compliance. They are after all going to be imposing severe austerity on a population that doesn't want severe austerity. So what military force in Europe is going to perform that task?

5. The occupation would be enormously expensive. Who is going to pay for it?

6. The occupation will last a long time. What nation has the political will to follow through?

I don't see it. Your case about the political ramifications of the end of prosperity is certainly solid. But that won't lead to civil war. It will lead to the "emergence of leader, an emperor, a religio-political philosopher-king" ... dare we say it? ... a Fuehrer. Nations will turn inward, and the EU will collapse. After that, who knows?

Nothing is so scary as a spiritually empty nation that believes in nothing but prosperity. To what will it turn when prosperity goes away?

carl

27 June 2011 18:16  
Blogger len said...

I sometimes wonder whether these events are being 'orchestrated',ie allowing Countries to get themselves in hideous amounts of debt to which there seems to be no solution.
Globalisation seems to be intention of whatever force is behind the Governments and is driving the E U firmly towards it.
Far from Countries coming out of the E U I believe they will want to cling on more firmly, much as those from a sinking ship climbing into the (EU) lifeboat.

27 June 2011 18:55  
Anonymous MrJ said...

"orchestrated" ? More like an oligarch's jam session, in imitation of a fiddling Nero.

27 June 2011 19:15  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Len, you say, "I sometimes wonder whether these events are being 'orchestrated',ie allowing Countries to get themselves in hideous amounts of debt to which there seems to be no solution." (27 June 2011 18:55)

Yes, it does certainly seem that waysometimes. But the antics, idiocy and buffoonery of these "masterminds" suggest that such scenario is highly unlikely. The bureaucratic and oligarchic classes raised in the echo chambers of ivory towers and panelled old boardrooms do think highly of themselves, but they can barely keep their genitals in their trousers and their spouses out of their offshore accounts half the time. Hardly the Athenean Philosopher Kings or the Nietzschean uebermenschen to govern a world.

27 June 2011 19:31  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Events being orchestrated?

Religio-Politico Pilosopher Kings?

My favourite subject ;-D

Hold on to your seats my tin foil hat buddies!

The (Baal) Baltic Exchange damaged by a bomb explosion in April, 1992 has been replaced by St Mary's Axe.

St Mary's Axe rather resembles a Lingam stone, phallic worship, we have been (Baal) Balkanised.

Now all say after me बाबा बालक नाथ जी

27 June 2011 19:32  
Anonymous MrJ said...

(Mr) Bitb (19:32). Makes a lot of sense to me, but the last line had me stumped.

27 June 2011 19:46  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

Not 'orchastrated' in the sense of a deliberately planned and implemented strategy. More the internal logic of capitalism which demands global markets, free trading blocks and policies conducive to continued growth.

Western capitalism is now facing its greatest threat - Brazil, India and China and possibly Russia.

A 'United States of Europe', with political and financial centralisation is the clear agenda of some as a counter.

Talk of civil war, the collapse of the world economy as we know it and the coming of the 'Man of Perdition' is, I think, fanciful speculation.

27 June 2011 19:53  
Blogger Tachybaptus said...

Mr J --
Well, it seems to say Baba Balak Nath Ji. According to Wikipedia, the dimwit's friend, Baba Balak Nath is a Hindu deity and his worship is associated with goats, mattresses and parrots. Ji means 'yes' and I think it's a sort of acclaim, like 'Hail'. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

27 June 2011 19:58  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

"Western capitalism is now facing its greatest threat - Brazil, India and China and possibly Russia" (Dodo)

Western capitalism was to be on its last legs when I was but a snotty wee lad, Mr Dodo. Brazil, back then, was an up-and-coming economic powerhouse, ascending from its newish jungle capital. Any day now, I hear. China and India deserve a few modest bets, and Russia will always be Russia, as you seem to suspect so yourself.

27 June 2011 20:48  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

MrJ try searching Bala Shiva.

I must say the association with a goat is of interest, because the Aegean sea is said to be derived from Greek aigis goat skin and Sanskrit aja goat.

27 June 2011 21:23  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Bitb. Well I've googled and what I found wasn't as much interest as your own remarks. So I feel I'll leave it alone, and not press you with demands for further explanation, nor complain because I have failed to understand in the spirit in which it was offered.

27 June 2011 21:44  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Thats fine MrJ, in Britain it is simply Belinus and Beltaine of druidry a primordial tradition of tribal gods.

Hence Balkanised, since the shaivites are anti-monotheistic and pro-diversity.

27 June 2011 22:12  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

Avi Bazel

I think we'll see the world economy dominated more and more by China. Even now it refuses to play the West's IMF and G8 game. Brazil is already racing off as a leading economic power and India will soon follow. Russia is a major power given the concentration of mineral wealth within its borders.

Is Anglo-Saxon capitalism on its last legs?

27 June 2011 22:15  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

"Every man will sit under his own vine and under his own fig tree, and no one will make them afraid, for the LORD Almighty has spoken"
Micah

It does not get any more diverse than that, the way to halting babel.

Again YG excellent post!

27 June 2011 22:53  
Anonymous berserker-nkl said...

About these brave new world's of China, Russia, Brazil, India etc. Well, they do have their problems.

India has an admirable education system but the caste hierarchy remains. Yes, I know there is positive discrimination. But the 'untouchables' remain as people grindingly poor and without hope. How will the Indians deal with the coming unrest, which is surely on the cards?

China has the problem of the vast amounts of rural poor. Russia is Russia but Hey Greece take heart from Brazil! They took an IMF loan out in 2003 for I think about $30 billion and paid it back within three years! If I had to have a bet on any of these counties I would take Brazil with its dominant position in South America.

27 June 2011 23:05  
Anonymous MrJ said...

(Mr) Bitb (22:12) Ever since youth when I heard of "Mabinogion" I've thought it may be a great residue of ancient knowledge about such things as you mention, but I guess I would find myself disappointed if I ever came to read it.

Shavites? GBS Fabians? Whatever next! You had me quite startled for a moment.

27 June 2011 23:23  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Powerful stuff, Your Grace. Certainly the frustrations of the EU always stimulate a corruscating response from you.

It seems impossible to separate the Greek vortex and travails of the Eurozone from the sudden appearance of Chinese Emperor Wen Jiabao, improbably cast as Lord Bountiful. Your communicant believes Your Grace should take a step back to look at a wider picture, commending research into the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) via link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Cooperation_Organisation.

Comrade Wen has just presided over a meeting of the SCO which saw important changes. Founder members are China, Russia and various Central Asian ‘stans of the former Soviet Union. In due course Iran was inducted as an observer, and now India and Pakistan have both enthusiastically been inducted as observers too. Presumably Burma and North Korea will not be far behind. After NATO withdrawal in 2014 it would not surprise if Afghanistan were to accede as an ‘observer’, thus completing the land-bridge between China and the Iranian energy resources.

China denies that SCO is a counter to NATO, but your communicant believes that the strategic thinkers in Peking have been reading the works of the British geographer Sir Halford Mackinder who invented the terms geo-politics and geo-strategy. Mackinder’s broad hypothesis was that whoever controlled the Eurasian Heartland controlled the planet. Certainly the SCO bears unmistakeable hall-marks of this line of thinking, and in terms of the Great Game, a fusion of China, Russia and India is essentially ‘game over’. None of this is designed to help the West.

So if Wen turns up with a bucket of cash saying I love the EU and the Euro, have some of this, look behind the words to his strategic goal. He merely seeks to separate Europe from the US, whose foreign policy he indirectly finances. Without question, the Chinese seek to break Anglo-Saxon hegemony globally and in particular the power of the US in the Western Pacific.

So what should the English-speaking peoples do? It is clear that we need each other as never before, but are currently weakened by socialism and a century of exertion for little reward. Time perhaps to retreat behind our great moats and regain our strength, building up our fleets and preparing to confront the gathering storm.

27 June 2011 23:49  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

bluedog said ...
"Time perhaps to retreat behind our great moats and regain our strength, building up our fleets and preparing to confront the gathering storm."

Problem is we don't have the castles anymore! And as for arming, well that's no longer the name of the game. The 'war' is economic and diplomatic.

28 June 2011 00:31  
Blogger len said...

Revelation 17:10 prophesies that there would be seven kings or rulers who would lead resurrections of the Roman Empire in cooperation with the Roman church. History shows that this development has occurred six times in the past. A final revival, linked in prophecy to God’s intervention in human affairs with Christ’s return, is well under way.
The 'other leg 'of the Roman Empire is situated in Istanbul (formerly Constantinople.)

28 June 2011 00:37  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Mr Dodo,

You zeroed-in on the meat of the matter, I think. And in trying to come up with a brilliant rebuttal to your argument, it occured to me that the Anglo-Saxon...although I prefer to call it Anglo-American...variant of capitalism actually defines capitalism and so, if it's on its last leg, then capitalism we know and love will be no more. Gone, farewell, ta-dah...memento mori.

It's just a hypothesis of mine, based on an accumulation of lifetime impressions, a sporadic education and a hefty doze of bias. A notion which I couldn't defend from a spitball, but I suspect that the "driver" of the only solidly successful variety of free enterprise is, in the long term, based on qualities unique to Anglo-American cultures and their institutions...and perhaps their successful imitators.

I know, I'll have to do better than that in defense of my speculation, but perhaps this is a thought others have stumbled upon as well, or perhaps one of the folks here with a real education can roll their eyes and say something like, "O yes, that's what the economist Sir James Fitzlivingpest wrote about back in the crazy 1850s, but the cultural materialist, Johann von Stood-Hegel-on-his-Great-Bloody-Head, proved conclusively that...." Or something like that.

Anyway, it's purely on the basis of my unfounded, but powerful conviction that the Anglo-sphere will eventually shake itself, readjust culturally, and drop the toxic internationalist, relativistic, post-modernistic jumble of twisted idiocies to take the lead once again. So, my conveniently unfalsifiable wager is that Brazil, China and India will entertain and astound us with a few golly-gees over the years, until slumping back into their chronic maladies. And, of course, it goes without saying that Russia will always be Russia.

28 June 2011 00:46  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

Avi Barzel

We all have our own 'prejudices' even the giants of economics. Who is to say who is right and wrong?

My position is that the model of 'protestant-capitalism' cannot sustain itself and to survive private ownership and private business needs to abandon the 'protestant-ethic' and become more lovingly Christian and distributative in focus.

I am not a socialist or a communist! Greed and reducing people to units of production cannot hold a people together. Neither can blind loyalty to a state or fear of a state.

Whether in a fallen world I am just a naive optimistist time will tell.

28 June 2011 01:26  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

len

A speculative and imaginative interpretation of both European history and of Rev 17: 9-10!

Not really something you can authoritively or definitively state.

28 June 2011 01:35  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Mr Dodo,

I'm in whole-hearted agreement with you with regards to your thoughts on greed and dehumanization of workers. There are, of course, many other issues of common concern, such as contracts, fair trade practices, properly conducted competition and so on. Indeed, free enterprise cannot thrive in a moral vacuum...and it hasn't, as some good secular laws and thousands of genuinely moral business people of all beliefs and backgrounds indicate.

The Protestant ethic, now that you mention it, may actually be just that driving force I'm grasping to identify. The little that I know of it, leads me to believe that like so many things, it too has evolved over time from its rough beginnings, attaining a higher ethical state than it originally started off with. I'm specifically thinking of several Evangelical Christian business colleagues, whose religion I may not understand well, but whose struggle to define and live by ethical business ideals is familiar to me.

Not being of your faith, I cannot speak to the ideals of loving Christianity you refer to. In my ignorance, I respectfully question how, other than by providing a sound moral foundation, these could work effectively without a developed and detailed body of living religious laws and customs directly addressing what appear to be mundane, contemporary business problems. From what I know of European history, Roman law and customs pre-dating Christianity appear to have dominated the field, and my guess is that these won't do the job any more. This is not a challenge or an invitation to theological disputations, but genuine curiosity by someone, who in his routine studies of Jewish law, perks up and pesters his more knowledgable study partners whenever business and medical laws and ethics come up.

28 June 2011 04:26  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

"Shavites? GBS Fabians? Whatever next! You had me quite startled for a moment"

Its not a case of the tag we wish to give it MrJ, its a matter of biblical fact, Gods reaction to Babel was to scatter disperate people around the World.

We are seeing that cosmic force at work, be it Marxist trying to convert everyone, muslims trying to convert everyone or Christians trying to convert everyone.

Monotheist or monoatheism, its still Babel building and Shiva has many faces with which to stop it.

28 June 2011 06:17  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Given our own economy is teetering dangerously on the brink of insolvency with no real solution in sight this is a case of Pot, meet Kettle, Your Grace. Our politicians are almost as inept and corrupt as their Greek counterparts. We are in no position to be self righteous.

28 June 2011 06:56  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Mr Dodo @ 00.31 said, 'The 'war' is economic and diplomatic.'

You could not be more wrong, although I concede that your answer reflects your life's experience. Ultimately, when the economic and diplomatic competition fails to deliver satisfactory results, nations go to war. As von Clausewitz said, 'war is the continuation of diplomacy by other means'.

Believe it.

28 June 2011 07:42  
Blogger len said...

Dodo,(01:35) Six attempts to revive the Roman Empire linked to the Roman Church

1, Justinian
2,Charlemagne
3,Otto
4,Charles v
5,Napoleon
6,Hitler

After Emperor Romulus Augustulus was deposed, less than a century passed before Justinian, the Eastern Roman or Byzantine emperor, ruling from Constantinople (modern-day Istanbul), committed himself to restoring the empire in the West, launching what would be known to history as the “Imperial Restoration.”


If there is any doubt that the Roman Empire was very much alive through Charlemagne’s revival, he adopted as his official title, “Charles, the most serene Augustus, crowned by God, great and pacific emperor, governing the Roman Empire.”

According to Langer’s Encyclopedia of World History, Otto’s “coronation by the pope as Roman Emperor marked the revival of the Roman Empire”(p. 216). His Latin-inscribed seal read Otto Imperator Augustus—“Otto the Great Emperor.”

Determined to realize the age-old dream of a unified Europe, Charles V’s reign was the pinnacle of the fourth prophesied revival of the Roman Empire. “One of the greatest of the kings of Spain and Holy Roman emperor, [Charles V] was perhaps the last emperor to attempt to realize the medieval idea of a unified empire embracing the entire Christian world” (The Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th edition,Micropaedia,Vol. 2, “Charles V”).

In 1799 Napoleon maneuvered himself into France’s top political position. In 1804 he crowned himself emperor of France, and later that year was crowned Emperor Napoleon I by Pope Pius II at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.


German dreams of a greater empire inevitably led to more war. In 1914 the First World War broke out, a conflagration that took the lives of millions and transformed the face of Europe. But when it ended four years later, major problems remained. In the coming years two new strongmen would arise with new dreams to unite Europe and expand beyond—Benito Mussolini in Italy and Adolf Hitler in Germany. Both these men signed agreements with the Roman church that gave legitimacy to their fascist regimes.

28 June 2011 07:46  
Blogger len said...

Dodo,
The title(and the Crown) held by the Caesars passed to the Popes, the defender of the bridges became 'the bridge '(replacing Christ as mediator between man and God!)

The title Pontifex Maximus was held by the head administrator of the Roman pagan religion. Eventually the Caesars envied this title of high honor and power; and first Julius Caesar and then Augustus Caesar made the title and office their own, as did later emperors. Thus developed a religio-political power well suited to the aims and ambitions of Roman bishops.

When, in 375, Emperor Gratian declined to accept this august title, believing its pagan origins unsuited to a Christian monarch, the Bishop of Rome, Pope Damasus I, appropriated the title Pontifex Maximus to himself. Thus the religio-political title of the Caesars passed without objection to the Papacy, together with its implied union of church and state.

28 June 2011 08:02  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Superb comment, Len.

28 June 2011 08:13  
Anonymous greg tingey said...

"God cares for the poor, the oppressed, and the underdogs in society"
WRONG

There is no detectable "god".
Terry Pratchett is dying of Alzheimers - god cares for everyone
Dictators strut the planet as you say - and god cares for everyone.
You are seriously deluded.

28 June 2011 08:38  
Anonymous MrJ said...

(Mr) Bitb (06:17) That goes a long way to explain what is happening and can be expected to go much further.

Much as (Mr) len has mentioned.

The culture of enterprise which

(Mr) Avi Barzel

has so well described draws much of its strength (but not exclusively) from the (Hebraic) books of the Old Testament and from the law and practice of Imperial Rome (consolidated in Justinian's Corpus Juris) as taken into the culture of England and Scotland and which thence spread abroad.

Somehow, the world crisis of this generation has a focus on the territory called, after the Roman usage, Palestine.

(Mr) bluedog (07:42) not long ago proposed the name "Cranmer Declaration". Somehow, the world crisis of this generation has a focus on the territory called, after the Roman usage, Palestine.

The way forward has become and will be through what is written of in the New Testament, which, ironically enough in the present crisis, was first put into Latin from the Greek, and into Slavic and other languages by the Greek missionaries, then into (early and then Tudor-Jacobean) English, and now into practically every language with an alphabet. It is meant for all the peoples and every one, but is widely rejected actively or passively. Printing, distribution, preaching: these are not enough.

Meantime, what odds are offered on How long the sticking plaster will be used for patching up before it runs out?

28 June 2011 09:03  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

len

A fanciful reading of history and a false account of the role of the Vatican in legitimising facism - it did no such thing.

28 June 2011 10:09  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Is that yet another misreading? Wilful or involuntary?

According to one source, the sudden extension of the leg which is known as the knee-jerk happens when the tendon is struck below the patella, and the term began to be used figuratively from the early 20c., as in "Itinerant preacher stemming Broadway on a soap box. And gets only an occasional knee-jerk." quoted from O. O. McIntyre, in his New York Day-By-Day column in The Coshocton Tribune, October 1921.

Just wait and see.

28 June 2011 10:30  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Tony Blair still believes the UK should ultimately join the euro.”

And so does Cameron and a great many other, so called, CONservatives.

28 June 2011 10:51  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

Mr J

I think not.

Yes, knee-jerk is an interesting physical phenomena.

28 June 2011 12:21  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

Mr len

You stated:

"Dodo,(01:35) Six attempts to revive the Roman Empire linked to the Roman Church" and proceeded to provide his historical overview of a reading of the unfolding of Revelation 17.

You concluded Mussolini and Hitler signed agreements with the Roman church "that gave legitimacy to their fascist regimes."

In previous posts you have been very clear about the relationsip you perceive between the Chuch of Rome and the return of the anti-Christ.

What you overlook, assuming you takes the text cited literally, is that the Vatican City rests on the the Vatican Hill and is not one of the seven hills of Rome. Whilst the Vatican Hill was within the walls and city limits of Rome there would therefore have been eight hills and not seven mountains. I believe there are over 50 other cities built on seven hills/mountains.

As for the rest of your historical analysis is concerned, I hold by my position that it is an inaccurrate summary. For example, it overlooks the attempts by Russian Communism to control Europe and its dominance throughout eastern and central Europe for decades. Indeed, it also ommits the early Islamic attempts at conquest. It simplifies the reationship between Napoleon, Hitler and Rome too.

The term 'Pontifex Maximus' simply means "greatest bridge-maker". The word "pontifex" later became a term used for Christian bishops, including the Bishop of Rome, and the title of "Pontifex Maximus" was applied within the Roman Catholic Church to the Pope as its chief bishop. It is not one of the Pope's official titles.

28 June 2011 12:27  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Just seven per cent of the population attend private schools, yet they account for 75 per cent of judges, 70 per cent of finance directors, 50 per cent of top journalists and 33 per cent of MPs."

And what a wonderful job they are all doing too! Is this an argument for or against private schools?

28 June 2011 12:47  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wrong place for above post - silly me.

28 June 2011 12:48  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Greece simply cannot pay pay what she borrowed and therefore a default or a renegociation of the debt needs to be seriously considered. The Eurocracy won't consider this because the whole united states of europe project requires a common currency. As his Grace says the Eurocracy's solution is more of europe, thus the calls for a common Euro bond and Treasury.

Thankfully it is the Germans (the largest economic power unit within the EU) who have finally realised that they above all the other countries within the EU will have to shoulder the burden of paying the greeks, irish, spanish and the rest billions to hold the euro together and frankly don't want any of it.

Thus we might yet see the demise of the Euro and perhaps a German lead currency bloc arising out of this, with Greece, Ireland etc doing an Iceland and recovering by a massive devaluation and export led growth.

Besides which, isn't it about time the bondholders- who lent all this cash and have so far got away scott free in the financial crisis of 2008-?? unscathed- be made to have some form of loss, rather than them thinking the ordinary joe- already suffering from the cutbacks and austerity in europe and at home- will always backstop them and their billionaire hedge fund friends?.

Finally, whilst I can respect Len on a lot of matters, I would caution against trying to predict the end of the world and fitting it into the context of the EU, Popes and Hitlers because as Jesus Christ himself said "No-one knows that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the father" (Mark 13 vs32).

28 June 2011 13:46  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

I have just read Revelation 17 and have failed to understand the connection with the Greek debt crisis, the EU, the Roman Catholic Church and the end of the world.

Perhaps his Grace, with his greater theo-politicial knowledge could help?

28 June 2011 13:52  
Anonymous Anon 2 said...

The knee-jerk is a reflex action: that means it takes place involuntarily, without cerebral intervention. We have several such reflex arcs, for example at the plantar, ankle, and elbow levels.

28 June 2011 14:11  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Coming back to the great world indebtedness crisis, Anon 2 (14:11) seems to have the gist of it.

28 June 2011 14:56  
Anonymous Anon 3 said...

How many times can one be forgiven for such an involuntary reflex - seven times or seventy times seven?

28 June 2011 14:58  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

Lord Lavendon said...
"I have just read Revelation 17 and have failed to understand the connection with the Greek debt crisis, the EU, the Roman Catholic Church and the end of the world."

Quite so! And as you so eloquently commented earlier:

"Finally, whilst I can respect Len on a lot of matters, I would caution against trying to predict the end of the world and fitting it into the context of the EU, Popes and Hitlers because as Jesus Christ himself said "No-one knows that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the father" (Mark 13 vs32)."

Mr len appears to believe the Roman Catholic Church is a pagan cult and an ally in waiting for the 'Man of Perdition' and is conspiring to make ready his arrival.

28 June 2011 15:21  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Lord Lavendon said 28 June 2011 13:46.

"Finally, whilst I can respect Len on a lot of matters, I would caution against trying to predict the end of the world and fitting it into the context of the EU, Popes and Hitlers because as Jesus Christ himself said "No-one knows that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the father" (Mark 13 vs32)."

Agreed regarding the day and hour but you ignore the first part that states you can know it is nigh this is why are we commanded by Christ to WATCH? or can you not discern what reading the signs means. Are we like the jews that failed to discern their time had arrived because they ignored the signs?

Mark 13
13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

13:34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Last Chance DODO said
"Mr len appears to believe the Roman Catholic Church is a pagan cult and an ally in waiting for the 'Man of Perdition' and is conspiring to make ready his arrival." INDEED it is all you state and he 'Man of Perdition', will actually ride it until it has served its purpose because he will be one of you. Rome will think he is establishing it's agenda whilst he really is establishing his own power base.

Well said, Len old boy.

Ernst, my likkkle dickie bird.

28 June 2011 15:46  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

"Are we like the jews that failed to discern their time had arrived because they ignored the signs?"

So you are able understand Revelation and see it as a historical analysis of the European and Church history?

Another in a long line of such 'seers' over the past 2000 years! And if the facts (historical and geographical)don't fit, twist the facts until they do.

28 June 2011 16:04  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

"There is no detectable 'god.'
Terry Pratchett is dying of Alzheimers - god cares for everyone
Dictators strut the planet as you say - and god cares for everyone.
You are seriously deluded."
(greg tingey)

Mr Tingey, as a former atheist of the militant strain, I still believe that atheism and agnosticism are legitimate philosophical positions deserving of respect.

Having enjoyed the company of many brilliant atheists and agnostics I, perhaps more than most here, have higher expectations. And so, I find your pathetic "challenge" childish, needlessly insulting and worst of all, depressingly moronic. Cringe material, to be exact. In terms of philosophical depth...never mind that, in terms of just plain common sense...it's "up there" with the intellectual gravity of the semi-literate village commissars of communist Europe of old, who used to go around the schools declaring boorishly to their captive audiences that it's an established fact that God doesn't exist because Yuri Gagarin (the first man in space) didn't see Him from his porthole.

28 June 2011 16:20  
Anonymous MrJ said...

"And if the facts (historical and geographical) don't fit, twist the facts until they do." Could Mr Blofeld (welcome back) advise whether that could be a Looking Glass reflection on the part of the flightless one?

28 June 2011 16:23  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dodo.

I've warned you about some of the clever bloggers on here trying to goad you into making an 'unacceptable' comment that could result in your final extinction. Leave them to it.

A well wisher.

28 June 2011 16:46  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Last Chance DODO said
"Mr len appears to believe the Roman Catholic Church is a pagan cult and an ally in waiting for the 'Man of Perdition' and is conspiring to make ready his arrival." INDEED it is all you state and he 'Man of Perdition', will actually ride it until it has served its purpose because he will be one of you. Rome will think he is establishing it's agenda whilst he really is establishing his own power base."

Thanks for the advice Anon 'Well Wisher' but at the risk of displaying an un-Anglican disposition, I must say the above post represents an unsupportable slur on the Church of Rome.

It is fanciful and disrectful in the extreme to presuppose Satan will start his earthly reign in the quise of a Roman Catholic and will hoodwink its members.

It owes more to 'Star Trek' than the Bible!

28 June 2011 16:59  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Watching as in observing indeed, but perhaps there is a big leap from watching and waiting for Jesus to return and attempting to fathom world events and ot interpret these through this lense.

I recall when this year, an American Pastor claimed that the end of the world was nigh and that a rapture would sweep away the faithful into heaven (in MAY) and then it didn't happen so the same chap decided that it was to be put back to September.

(Perhaps God seemed didn't react well to the multi-million dollar advertising campaign that had gone on before hand).

These stunts to me are bad for Christians and the cause of Christ, especially when are told by the man himself that even he does not know and that we will never know when he's going to come back, but are instead told to go to all nations and baptise them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Regarding the EU, there are more understandable and logical reasons to oppose it than simply saying that it is all the work of the evil one.

28 June 2011 17:02  
Anonymous Tena Lady said...

its interesting and well judged analysis is reflecting in this writing.

28 June 2011 17:13  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

MrJ said 28 June 2011 16:23

Thanks for your kind comment my boy.Just about to do my tea but will have an answer after old Ernst is refreshed for LCD and Lord Lavendon as regarding why he states what he does and the basis for it.

Ernst, my fine chap.

ps Tena Lady - Cripes, Yerwhat? Subliminal messaging here or are Ernst's painkiller tablets having dire effects on what he sees before him?

28 June 2011 17:18  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

Mr Ernst while you reflect bear in mind that whilst the capital of Italy, Rome, sits on seven hills and the seperate Vatican State actually rests on a seperate hill.

I doubt the author of Revelation was referring to the Vatican City, much more likely the Roman Empire circa 60AD. That or he got his arithmetic wrong. You might also want to consider the seriously flawed historical analysis presented by len too.

28 June 2011 17:44  
Anonymous Spyware Alert said...

Ernst

Tena Lady may be a spammer. There is a link embedded in her name that opens a window to an online pharmacy.

28 June 2011 17:55  
Anonymous Calvanist said...

Brothers we are being attacked by the papists-Catlics Lord Lavendon and Last chance Dodo. These heritics of the cult of Mary must be banished into the flames!

28 June 2011 18:01  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Even better; Tena Lady appears to be pharmaceutical product. From the site: "TENA Lady Mini Magic is a step forward in discreet protection and is ideal for those who lose just a few drops of urine. Tena Mini Magic have been designed to quickly absorb urine.

28 June 2011 18:06  
Anonymous Pastor Jim Bucker III said...

"Watching as in observing indeed, but perhaps there is a big leap from watching and waiting for Jesus to return and attempting to fathom world events and ot interpret these through this lense."

This heresy from the catholic Lavendon- the rapture WILL HAPPEN and when that happens HE WILL BE BEGGING CHRIST TO LET HIM INTO HEAVEN.

28 June 2011 18:11  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tena Lady is taking the pee - but from who?

28 June 2011 18:13  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Calvanist
Pastor JBlll

A little research reveals that Lord Lavendon lists an interest in the Church of England.

More ill-considered judgement and hastily threatened damnation from the more 'lunatic' far-right fringe of evangelism? Oh dear, oh dear.

28 June 2011 18:22  
Anonymous Toby the Jug said...

Who ya gonna call?

Catholic Busters!

28 June 2011 18:26  
Anonymous MrJ said...

While (Mr) Blofeld is out for tea...

Most commenters could probably agree that some other commenters overstate their case (whatever it may be) or understate.

Probably any commenter with something of interest will be one of those who some others see as an overstater, or may be as an understater.

As it happens, in my view the case for the Church of Rome is sometimes overstated, and likewise against (naming no names).

But the tone of discussion (sincerity and such), counts for quite a lot when deciding what and how to rebut; and, on the evidence of comments seen here for some months, I expect most others could agree with that.

Not that, in general, any one is seeking agreement from anyone else.

It has been remarked by others that the owner of the Blogsite is hospitable and indulgent to the wide range of comments that appear here. (Of course, subject to his right to filter.)

28 June 2011 18:29  
Anonymous Matthew Hopkins (deceased) said...

I'm awaiting your call for assistance.

28 June 2011 18:34  
Blogger len said...

Lord Lavendon,
Biblical Prophesy is given for our edification and to validate Gods plans for humanity.God does nothing without informing His prophets.I am not saying He reveals everything, some things remain hidden.
Why else would God give prophesy?God is sovereign and can do whatever He pleases but God wants Humanity(Christians at least) to be involved in and be able to comprehend what He is doing.

28 June 2011 18:49  
Anonymous MrJ said...

MH_ Penalty for Praemunire: nearly die laughing.

28 June 2011 18:55  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Can I make it clear that I'm not a Roman Catholic, but an Anglican within the ecumenical & Evangelical-Charismatic tradition.

I really cannot see what the Roman Catholic Church has got to do with the Greek debt crisis and how this fits into Revelation and the return of Jesus (did the Catholic Church lend all that money to the Greeks?).

The language used against the Roman Catholics by Len & Ernest reminds me of the 16th Century (yes some people saw the Roman Church as 'the whore of babylon' then, so it is not a new concept) and not the 21st and I would like to think that we have 'moved on' in our understanding of the Christian faith and the various traditions within Christianity (Len's 'born again' evangelicalism is not the only path or truth to Jesus Christ) in the past five hundred plus years.

28 June 2011 19:20  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Calvanist and Pastor Jim Bucker III, I am not a Roman Catholic, so please get your facts right before launching yourself into a frenzy.

My dear Len, you have raised some issues and I hope to answer shortly (like Ernest I have a dinner to put on).

28 June 2011 19:26  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Lord Lavendon 19:20

No comment on your remarks about Len & Ernst (they can speak for themselves as and when they wish), but on "what the Roman Catholic Church has got to do with the Greek debt crisis"...

This blogsite's main articles have had much to say over some time about the attention given by the Vatican to the EU project, and the EU project is very much involved with the Greek debt crisis, as well as the world wide crisis. It was remarked a day or two back that the Vatican plays a long game.

28 June 2011 19:44  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

Lord Lavendon

Maybe I can help answer your question at 19:20 and be somewhat more direct that Mr J's reply at 19:44.

Various individuals and church groups see the Roman Catholic Church intent on reestablishing its evil hold on Europe. They see this lurking behind the Ecumenical Movement which, to their minds, is inextricably linked with the present attempt to set up a United States of Europe. It also held to inform the Vatican's enticement of others to join the Union.

The prophecies of Daniel (chapter 2) and (Revelation chapter 17) are routinely wheeled out to support this. Protestants theologians have consistently identified these as representing Papal Rome as the anti-Christ.

They depict a latter-day political union which, in its final form, will consist of ten nations or groups of nations dominated by a power which sits upon seven hills. The vision is of a "great whore" riding a beast with "seven heads and ten horns" and bearing the name "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH".

Today extreme evangelical groups actually believe this prophecy is being fulfilled in front of their eyes. Ecumenicalism and European Union, they argue, is a Vatican-inspired and Vatican-controlled plot to entrap and ensnare the unwary.

Political and economic union in a Super State, they argue, will lead to an eventual claim by Rome to the right to exercise her mandate over civil governments once again and this will be enforced by laws making it a public crime to resist the power wielded by the Church in the name of God.

Really .... this is what some of the more extreme christian groups believe. It is well documented on various websites.

28 June 2011 21:29  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Dodo, thank you for giving me the context of the posts made, quite an a terrible twisting of Bible truth and the gospel.

Mr J, I am an opponent of the EU, but not because of some Vatican/EU conspiracy. There is no conspiracy, or at least if there is, the Vatican has not played their hand very well, given that the EU Brussels leadership and most of the heads of the EU are basically centre - left liberals, who have disregarded any Catholic and indeed Orthodox Christian views on matters such as abortion, family, sexuality etc, which makes any talk of a conspiracy to be shown to be the rot it is.

I oppose the Eu and would like to see the UK get out of it, but because I simply do not believe that continued membership of the EU is in line with the vital national interest of the UK and because I believe, with a lot of passion, that it is the Parliament of the UK (Commons,Hereditary Lords and the Monarch) which is the true voice of the British people and therefore that is the body which should govern and choose the government of our great nation.

The Greek crisis to me exposes the real flaw in the EU plan, that is that Germans will always be Germans, the French will always be French and the Greeks will always smash my best Wedgewood crockery after a meal at Lavendon hall.

So let us europeans all live in peace, but not live under the tyranny of a permanent government based in Belgium.

28 June 2011 22:15  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

Lord Lavendon

Pleased to be of assistance.

Like you I am oppossed to a Federal Europe with large institutions imposing laws on Britain. However, I'm not in favour of withdrawel yet and haven't given up on Churchill's vision of an independent group of nations working together for the common good.

On the other issue of Ecumenicalism which you do not respond to, I am optimistic about all faiths learning more about one another but sceptical about it leading to a universal christian church. It is surely better to understand other faiths rather than simply condemn them? Then engage in a theological conversation - Christian truth is surely more powerful than any other force?

I am somewhat left of centre-right and so am still thinking about my position on Constitutional Reform and in particular the House of Lords.

Good evening.

28 June 2011 22:29  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Len,

As promised here is my reply to yours :

but you cannot treat Revelation as if it were a code book waiting to be cracked- many, many Christian scholars have attempted to comment upon this book, but perhaps the key message to understand from it is that God destroys all evil, whatever persecution we face .

I would dearly like to say to you, to stop wasting your time on attempting to understand whether or not the EU/Vatican is the beast/devil/satan and go and live your life to love and serve our Lord.

There are people out there in the real world who need to hear the gospel message and whose lives need to change; a far more rewarding and necessary task than attempting to uncover something which will never, ever be revealed to you.

You, I and Dodo can do that in so many ways, but the key thing is to attempt to do this as a witness for our saviour, Jesus Christ.

Ask yourself in any given situation "what would Jesus DO?" What would Jesus do about the current situation in Greece- rant about the "whore of Bablyon" or get involved in the situation?

As a concluding comment, from Revelation itself (21, vs 4) :

"He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Ther will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain for the old order of things has passed away..."

28 June 2011 22:29  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Lord Lavendon, replying to your remarks addressed to me....

1) "So let us europeans all live in peace, but not live under the tyranny of a permanent government based in Belgium." Yes indeed.

2) "the Vatican has not played their hand very well... which makes any talk of a conspiracy to be shown to be the rot it is." My view is simply that, as another has put it, the Vatican plays a long game. That is surely common knowledge and what, I believe, lawyers would call "common ground": the present Pope and officials of the papal curia and their predecessors would not in candour deny it. That does not mean, to my understanding the same as asserting that there is "some Vatican/EU conspiracy".

3) The merit of the "Parliament of the UK (Commons, Hereditary Lords and the Monarch)" had been that in its better moments, it would be able to find a way through without being unduly hindered by the sentiment "Germans will always be Germans, the French will always be French and the Greeks will always smash my best Wedgewood crockery".

Sir Arthur Evans uncovered Knossos. The U.K. needs (needed) a thread of Ariadne when venturing into the maze to save Europa (and Britain too) from the Minotaur.

29 June 2011 00:02  
Anonymous Toby the Jug said...

There's a strange harshness to the christianity underlying today's blog.

Greece should face the full consequences of its leader's being profligate. To protect them only shields them from the consequences of their actions and stunts moral growth. Pain encourages development and so they should face it.

The consequences will be severe hardship for ordinary people in Greece and a potential further collapse of world banking but leaders have failed the people and now the moral order demands they suffer the consequences and be allowed to fail.

It is acknowledged God cares for the oppressed in society and pours his wrath upon those who corrupt justice or create economic machines to provide more wealth for the wealthy and deprive the poor.

Who in this analysis will ultimately suffer? Not the rich and wealthy, not the political and economic leaders. No. It will be the oppressed and the underdog.

The christian approach is surely to do all possible to prevent the collapse and consequential suffering and then address the underlying causes?

29 June 2011 00:23  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

Mr J

The 'long game' the Vatican plays is the propagation and protection of the Christian faith and translating the message of the Gospel into solutions suitable to the 'signs of the times' and the particular threats facing individuals and communities.

This 'long game', already 2000 years old, will last until the return of Christ when the commission passed to the Apostles will have been successfully fulfilled.

29 June 2011 02:17  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bailouts, Bonds, Borrowing, Bungling and Bust - Brussels Bullies have no plan B:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3QqvsAxuvI

29 June 2011 06:28  
Blogger len said...

Lord Lavendon,
There are many good , honest people who have been lured unwittingly into false religions.They have the illusion of being 'saved' but they are not.
There are many people who think God`s condition for entrance to Heaven is being 'good'.
Far better for those in either condition to have their illusions shattered here on Earth then when they are knocking on Heavens door.
It is my duty to speak the true Christian message.

29 June 2011 07:32  
Anonymous MrJ said...

I see the comment at "The Last (Chance) Dodo" (02:17) has confirmed a point of mine at 00:02, but the intention may have been to contradict or imply a claim to Papal supremacy. Benefit of the doubt?

It's a question of Sitz im Leben.

29 June 2011 07:44  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Lord Lavendon_ Perhaps I should have added to my comment at 00:02--

It is beyond reasonable doubt that the validity of the traditional claims of papal supremacy have always been disputed and are contrary to the evidence.

The sovereignty of Stato della Città del Vaticano (by treaty) is a fact under international law.

29 June 2011 08:59  
Anonymous Angelo said...

Lord L and Dodo.
Although there are many good and sincere people who are followers of the Roman Catholic Church. One feels that the rites and practices of any religious body should be thourougly scrutinised using the Word as the litmus.
Even more so, if the body in question is presenting itself as a Christian congregation, or even the presumption of being THE true Church.
Are we not warned that many false prophets will arise and their will be Wolves in Sheeps clothing among the flock?.
The sincerity of ones faith is no guarantee of its truth, surely that is the reason the Lord gave us the scriptures as a benchmark of truth.
Unity at the price of rejecting truth is selling our birthright for a mess of potage, and we are guilty of not speaking the truth in love if we leave the lost and sincere of any faith to their fate for fear of mans wrath or criticism.

29 June 2011 09:41  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Mr Dodo @ 02.17 said 'The 'long game' the Vatican plays is the propagation and protection of the Christian faith and translating the message of the Gospel into solutions suitable to the 'signs of the times' and the particular threats facing individuals and communities.'

Really?

Look at this cut and paste job from the wikipedia entry on coeliac desease, an increasingly common malady related to gluten allergy. The Vatican appears to think that gluten free communion wafers are a threat to the rite of the Eucharist! Even more risible, the Vatican counsels against ordination of priests who may have a gluten allergy.

Should communicants laugh, or cry? See below.

Roman Catholic doctrine states that for a valid Eucharist, the bread must be made from wheat. In 2002, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith approved German-made low-gluten hosts, which meet all of the Catholic Church's requirements, for use in Italy; although not entirely gluten-free, they were also approved by the Italian Celiac Association.[91] Some Catholic coeliac sufferers have requested permission to use rice wafers; such petitions have always been denied.[92] The issue is more complex for priests. Though a Catholic (lay or ordained) receiving the Eucharist under either form (bread or wine) is receiving Christ "whole and entire"—his body, blood, soul, and divinity—the priest, who is acting in persona Christi, is required to receive under both species when offering Mass—not for the validity of his Communion, but for the fullness of the sacrifice of the Mass. On 22 August 1994, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith apparently barred coeliacs from ordination, stating, "Given the centrality of the celebration of the Eucharist in the life of the priest, candidates for the priesthood who are affected by coeliac disease or suffer from alcoholism or similar conditions may not be admitted to holy orders." After considerable debate, the congregation softened the ruling on 24 July 2003 to "Given the centrality of the celebration of the Eucharist in the life of a priest, one must proceed with great caution before admitting to Holy Orders those candidates unable to ingest gluten or alcohol without serious harm."[

29 June 2011 10:17  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

Some interesting responses.

Mr len
"It is my duty to speak the true Christian message."

Indeed it is - as you see it. However to base a claim that the Church of Rome is a Satanic cult making ready the way for the anti-Christ requires something more than prophetic speculation. If you offer historical 'evidence' then this must be objective and not a contorted, inaccurrate historical narrative to fit your thesis.

Mr J

“It is beyond reasonable doubt that the validity of the traditional claims of papal supremacy have always been disputed and are contrary to the evidence.”

Really?

The validity has been and is disputed. Contrary to evidence? Surely this depends on one's interpretation of the Biblical texts in question? This becomes a matter of faith and understanding based on these texts and the words of Christ and what He meant.

At the risk of being accussed of requiring you to submit to an ‘inquisition’ (again) do you support Mr len’s position on Daniel 2 and Revelation 17? Your posts suggest that sometimes you do and sometimes you don't.

Angelo

I agree completely with the sentiments you have expressed. Scripture is of course the basis of Catholicism though understanding of this has developed and will continue to do so through the application of reason and an understanding of the traditions of the church from its inception.

bluedog

And your point is? Even a rudimentary understanding of the Mass and the centrality of the Eucharist in Catholicism would offer an explanation of the Vatican’s position on this issue.

29 June 2011 11:12  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

LCD and Lord Lavendon.

Firstly the religious connection of the last days in Revelation. Part1
There are only 3 mentioned, the body of christ (the 7 churches), The jewish faith (they now have a temple and are performing the sacrifice for sin for a nation) and the Whore (John introduces the Whore in Revelation 17, he tells us: "Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, ‘Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who is seated upon many waters, with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and with the wine of whose fornication the dwellers on earth have become drunk.’ And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of b.asphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her fornication; and on her forehead was written a name of mystery: ‘Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations.’ And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her I marveled greatly" (Rev. 17:1–6)).
She has committed some kind of fornication, which in Scripture is often a symbol of false religion—lack of fidelity to the God who created heaven and earth. She is symbolically known as Babylon. She is a central cause of "abominations" in the land, abominations being a reference to practices, especially religious practices, that are offensive to God. And she persecutes Christians "the saints and . . . martyrs of Jesus."
It is well known that the early Church Fathers referred to pagan Rome as "Babylon";
The Whore and the Beast is Political and Religious Rome combined / A Religion and a Political Man. She receives adoration by his political might!
When the Whore falls we read, "‘Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you’. . . . In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth" (18:20, 24). This shows that the Whore persecuted not just Christians, but apostles and prophets. Apostles existed only in the first century, since one of the requirements for being an apostle was seeing the risen Christ (1 Cor. 9:1). Prophets existed as a group only in the Old Testament and in the first century (Acts 11:27–28, 13:1, 15:32, 21:10). However the system mentioned is a continuation of ALL FALSE RELIGION THAT IS ABHORRED BY GOD HIMSELF. There is only ONE TRUE FAITH throughout history offered by grace from Him.
Since the Whore persecuted apostles and prophets, the Whore must have existed in the first century. Roman Catholics believe this totally demolishes the claim that Christian Rome or Vatican City is the Whore. Rome was not a Christian city at that time, and Vatican City did not even exist, so neither of them could be the Whore.
Furthermore, Roman Catholics believe that Christians continually (though wrongly) claim that Roman Catholicism itself did not exist in the first century, meaning that based on their very own argument Catholicism could not be the Whore! WRONG! The statutes of Jupiter and others were merely changed into Jesus, Mary, Peter and Paul etc, to continue the blasphemy as it is able to morph into all things to all men, irrespective of how extreme and unbiblical that belief may be, such as Shamanism..

Old Ernsty, Likkle Dickie Bird.

29 June 2011 15:25  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

LCD and Lord Lavendon.

Part2
The fact that the Roman Catholic Church is singled out by Christians as the Whore reveals that we, Christians, intuit the fact it has an important role in God’s plan. No other church gets accused of being the Whore—only the Roman Catholic Church. And it is understandable to Roman Catholics why: The Roman Catholic Church is the largest Christian body, larger than all other Christian bodies put together, suggesting a prominent place in God’s plan. Christians therefore assume, without supposedly being objective at looking at the evidence, that the Catholic Church cannot be the Bride of Christ as it believes it is, so it must be the Whore of Babylon. However just giving yourself a name in no way accounts that you are what you say. A butcher may call himself a brain surgeon merely because he holds a knife and has an understanding of anatomical details but this in no ways qualifies him as such, he is merely a butcher with some similarities to what he thinks he is.
That it, Romanism and its many previous pagan disguises , has been around so long in no way means it is True Faith as False Religion has been around as long as God Given grace to His people. More numbers of adherents are not a sign of true belief as there were more false prophets and priests of Baal than Elijah and those who 'would not bow the knee' but he showed the true faith and the One True God who must be followed as all other faiths are FALSE.
You are Ammillenialist as a Church, hence why you are blind to your place in these last days, you believe you have replaced and are Israel. The Church and Israel are two distinct bodies of believers with different missions etc or is God a liar?

Are all Roman Catholics or other people involved in this God damned system lost because of this ecumenicalism they hold onto or is there hope?
Revelation 18:4-8
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Wonderful Grace from the most high God towards those in error even during His wrath if you will just repent and come to Him. Grace upon Grace to us who deserve judgment.
Hallelujah..
The Whore is a religious system that seeks to unify all religions under her and there is only ONE system that believes this is possible and it is based in Rome. Name me another that tries to accomplish this. She must subjugate all men until she has achieved her earthly purpose and NOTHING will stop her, whether it be Time, Political systems or the desires of men and women, she can wait patiently.
The Antichrist is a man who awaits his empowering by Satan just as Christ was empowered by the Holy Spirit and he seeks to unify mankind politically for the 'greater good' and he believes that religion can play its part and as he is an adherent of the Roman system he will seek to use her to achieve his purpose just as she believes she can use him. They are distinctively different but united in purpose as the Emperor awaits his crowning. The vast number of new entrant countries into the EU are Roman Catholic, NOT Christian as you state, a major difference.
As Rome has espoused, they believe in an ET but not in the OT and NT or they would repent of their sin and ask for forgiveness.

Old Ernsty, Likkle Dickie Bird.

29 June 2011 15:32  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

A calling to all who refuse the forgiveness of Christ Alone.

This is not a lack of love but a calling from the Most High God that you repent and "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."
Don't procrastinate what can be accomplished immediately by repenting of following man made systems and not The Lamb of God.

Old Ernsty, Likkle Dickie Bird.

29 June 2011 15:35  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

A non-Catholic's, indeed a non-Christian's two cents on the issue of gluten and alcohol in the Eucharist which Mr/Ms Bluedog cites above.

It bears to remember that such battles are not unique to Catholicism. In different forms they challenge religions and even secular cultural entities which retain ceremonies and traditions they deem important. This struggle is neither tragic, nor funny; it’s a sign of people doing their humanly best to address contemporary and worldly values and issues, while treating their faith or traditions with respect and seriousness.

Bluedog's implied criticism suggests that religious decisions should be decided quickly, with minimum of debate and with a preference to those (no matter how few or many) who echo the most recent and seemingly the most fair and sensibl concerns of secular culture. A "guiding light" behind such suggestions, I'm speculating, is the emerging body of evolving human rights and the principle of equity. Yet even secular worklace equity legislation does not usually force employers to take on people whose disabilities prevents them from doing central aspects of their job or, in this case, calling. This is why you won't routinely (yet) see morbidly obese runway models, illiterate copy editors, colour-blind interior decorators or wheelchair-bound dance instructors; they can, in many cases do the job, but only partially and with great inconvenience to everyone concerned.

I'm not, by the way, ridiculing or belittling Bluedog's critique. It's a familiar one and a serious one...as are the counter-arguments to it. Not only religions, but all cultures, institutions and societies eventually must decide on how much change to accept and when to say "stop," "not yet," or "this can never happen." It's a tough balancing act; too much rigidity or too much accomodation can both lead to the weakening or even destruction of a faith or a society. I say, good luck to all.

In any event, I will be watching this case very closely. There is a critical shortage of priests in North America and should the Catholic Church rule leniently on this issue, I have a good argument, a serious precedent and a fair shot for securing a pleasant, socially rewarding part-time occupation as a priest in one of Toronto's many beautiful, Gothic Revival-styled parish churches. I'm personable and relate well to young people and their contemporary concerns, and with varied occupational experiences and a plethora of transferable skills, I'm perfectly capable of quickly learning the required ceremonial duties. Google and Wikipedia stand ever ready to assist me with any difficult questions thrown at me by much-too-clever parishioners, my marital status is a private matter, and my being Jewish is not an impediment, as my ethno-religio-cultural personal membership, beliefs and conduct outside of the practical job requirements are no one's concern. I own a car, such as it is, speak several languages, Sundays are another regular workday for me (apart from the early spring salmon runs), and I have no problems with wheat, gluten or alcoholic wine...as long as they are kosher, of course.

29 June 2011 16:02  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

LCD 29 June 2011 11:12

"bluedog

And your point is? Even a rudimentary understanding of the Mass and the centrality of the Eucharist in Catholicism would offer an explanation of the Vatican’s position on this issue."

Waffle, waffle.

As the eucharist wafer is a blasphemous doctine of the RCC and is completely missing in early church usage or scriptures, especially as authorised by Apostles, Bluedog states the pathetic nature of your wafer and foolishness involved.

How on earth did the early churches miss its divine command of usage as a neccesity of a mass being required or the confessional box. They were obviously lost and unforgiven until Rome righted this God ignored wrong.!

Obviously whilst the Holy Spirit was working through the Apostles as never before or since, He somehow forgot to enlighten them regarding RCC doctrine and its enforcement with believers.

Laughable, if it wasn't so blasphemous.

Ernst, my fine fowl.

29 June 2011 16:16  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Avi Barzel: I enjoyed that, ta.

29 June 2011 16:58  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Ernst,

I have pointed out before I am not a Roman Catholic and additionally I have no need of you attempting to convert me to your particular brand of Christianity. I do not agree with your view of the book of Revelation, as the where, who and how is God's to decide- not yours or lens or mine or dodo's.

29 June 2011 17:13  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

As a peice of simple speculation, I sometimes wonder if this AntiChrist Ernst and Len refer to will actually come from the RC church ? Given that Ernst and len and the other chaps who expouse such information & have such knowledge about it and thus you have all your attention on that particular church and given that satan is the prince of lies, perhaps it is all a bit too obvious and perhaps the evil one might actually come out of one of your 'perfect' churches? Just a thought.

29 June 2011 17:14  
Anonymous Pastor Jim Bucker III said...

Lavendon is part of the mini-whore, which is slightly less odious than then Catholic one! I name Lord Lavendon as an Anti-Christ!

29 June 2011 17:29  
Anonymous Pastor Jim Bucker III said...

"A calling to all who refuse the forgiveness of Christ Alone.
This is not a lack of love but a calling from the Most High God that you repent and "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."
Don't procrastinate what can be accomplished immediately by repenting of following man made systems and not The Lamb of God."

I couldn't have put it better myself! Dodo and the unbelievers must repent or be thrown into the everlasting fire with their master the evil serpent beast of bablyon and the Roman Catholic Church!

The EU is a construct of satan and it is his attempt to build a world wide empire which is why all Christians must oppose both the EU and the Catholic Church!

29 June 2011 17:31  
Anonymous eucharist wafer said...

Your Grace,

Are you ever worried about the silly comments put on your blog, given that some of them are neither intelligent or erudite?

29 June 2011 17:33  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Lord Lavendon

Dear boy, Old Ernsty has no desire to convert anyone to 'His Brand' of Christianity as Ernst serves only Christ and no man, vicarious or otherwise or system.
"as the where, who and how is God's to decide- not yours or lens or mine or dodo's." How on earth can I decide instead of God how or who or where things shall be or come to pass?

We are commanded to watch, why.
To call people to repentance as the day grows short as to the eternal choice a man or woman must make. It has irreversable consequences and Ernst has no desire that anyone should go to the Lake of Fire designed for Satan and his fallen.

Hear but if not continue as you will.


"perhaps it is all a bit too obvious and perhaps the evil one might actually come out of one of your 'perfect' churches? Just a thought."
Do they even exist, show me one so I can attend.

Ernsty, your lordship, Huzzah.

Ps

Pastor Jim 29 June 2011 17:29

Calm down my boy or do you think that your mini whore plays no part in the coming system? It almost deceives the very elect or have you not read. Bit of humility required my lad.

29 June 2011 17:35  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Your Grace,

Are you ever worried that a blogger masquerading as a Eucharist Wafer of all things, is typing silly comments because it challenges his/her position and insists on putting them on your blog.

Blurting to Sir because they cannot answer a charge of error against their position.

Miraculous and pathetic indeed.


E S Blofeld

29 June 2011 17:43  
Anonymous Pastor Jim Bucker III said...

For the Anti-Christ Lord Lavendon and his followers of ecumenicalism and roman catholicism:


Practically all precepts of the Roman Catholic institution contradict the Bible repeatedly. It is the largest cult in the world and most preachers will not openly say so because it is so large. For Catholics who read this, please remember this: the person that tells you the truth is the one that cares.

I'll list the catholic tradition first and then what the Bible has to say about the matter.


* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Call priests father, e.g., Father McKinley.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Forbidding the priesthood to marry.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

1) It is devilish to forbid God's people to marry when He has given marriage to be received with thanksgiving.
1 Timothy
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2) Peter was married (remember the pope is supposedly continuing the apostolic line through Peter).

Matthew
8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

Mark
1:30 But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever, and anon they tell him of her.

Luke
4:38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.

3) Paul, a great apostle, remained single; however he made it very clear that he could marry if he wanted to.

1 Corinthians
9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary never had other children after the Lord Jesus. She remained a perpetual virgin.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - After Mary delivered our precious Lord Jesus Christ into the world Joseph did know his wife. Joseph and Mary indeed had children together, plenty of them. They were the Lord's half brothers and sisters for their father was Joseph and mother was Mary.

Matthew 1:24-25 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not TILL she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Matthew
13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

Mark
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

29 June 2011 17:47  
Anonymous Pastor Jim Bucker III said...

PART II .

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the queen of heaven.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Worshipping the queen of heaven (which is not the Mary of the Bible) is worshipping another god and it provokes the Lord to anger.

Jeremiah
7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the mother of God.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary is the mother of the earthly Jesus, not God. Jesus pre- existed from everlasting as God (see John 1:1). When He came to redeem mankind, He laid aside His glory and was made like unto sinful man so that He could take our punishment (Hebrew 2:9). God has no mother. He has lived from everlasting which means He had no beginning.

Isaiah
43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. [If Mary gave birth to God, she'd be God.]
Psalm
93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Micah
5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler [Jesus] in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Philippians
2:6 Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Pope called Holy Father.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - The term Holy Father is only found one time in the entire Bible. It was when Jesus prayed before He and His disciples went to the garden of Gethsemane. He referred to God the Father as Holy Father. It is blasphemy to call a man by God's name

John
17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Purgatory, nuns, popes.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - None of these is mentioned in the Bible. It is a sin to add to the Bible.

Proverbs
30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
The pope is a man who takes upon himself honor which belongs to no human being. Even the very name by which he allows himself to be called (Holy Father) is highly presumptuous and blasphemous (see above).

One does not need the pope to determine what God's will is. The Bible says that God has given the Holy Ghost to each believer and that He (the Holy Ghost) guides and leads us into all truth. All a believer needs is the Bible and the Holy Ghost to know the will of the Lord. Popery has been treacherous, but worse, each pope has been the blind leading the blind. Jesus said that both will fall into the ditch. Catholics, come out of this system that cannot save and know Jesus for youself, intimate and up-close.

NOTE: Purgatory is supposedly a place where a person is purified of sins--even popes supposedly go there. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the one that purifies us of our sins. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.... When a person dies their eternal home is sealed--heaven or hell--no in between. Hebrews 9:27 ...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

29 June 2011 17:49  
Anonymous Pastor Jim Bucker III said...

PART III

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images. Pope bows to statues of Mary, people worship the eucharist and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is idolatry to venerate images. We are not even supposed to make them.

Exodus
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God...

29 June 2011 17:52  
Anonymous Pastor Jim Bucker III said...

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - The mass. Through transubstantiation, the wafer/host and the wine supposedly become the actual blood and body of Jesus Christ when the priest prays over them. He is supposed to be sacrificed over and over again on Roman Catholic altars.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus died once for sins, never to be repeated. He sits on the right hand of God and does not reappear in the mass as a mass of blood and flesh.

Hebrews
10:12 But this man [Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
John
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

1 Corinthians
11:24 And when he [Jesus] had given thanks, he brake it [bread], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come (not for the forgiveness of sins or to receive Jesus).

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Saved, in part, by good works.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Good works are the fruits that grow out of being saved. They do not make you saved. An apple does not make its tree an apple tree, it was already an apple tree before any apples appeared. When you see the apples; however, you know what kind of tree it is. If a person is saved, he will shew forth good works because he has the spirit of Christ in him. The good works don't make him saved only the blood of Jesus can do that.

I John
1:7b ...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Acts 16:31b
...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Romans
3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

What about James 2:20 "faith without works is dead"?

The kind of faith that saves is a faith that shows forth the works of God. Even devils believe in Jesus and tremble (James 2:19). Many people believe in Jesus but they won't follow Him. They have a faith, but not the kind that saves. If a person has true faith in Jesus, the Holy Ghost dwells in him and will cause good works will show forth in his life. The good works confirm the faith by which the person was saved. James 2:21-23 uses Abraham as an example. Abraham believed God so when God asked him to sacrifice his son Isaac, Abraham, out of his faith in God, offered up Isaac.

29 June 2011 17:53  
Anonymous Pastor Jim Bucker III said...

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - The church is founded on Peter.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. Peter was a man like you and me. Jesus called Peter Satan in Matthew 16:23 when Peter rebuked Jesus dying. When Cornelius tried to worship Peter, Peter responded, "Stand up; I myself also am a man." (Acts 10:26). The pope needs to remember Acts 10:26 when he has men bowing to him and kissing his hand like he is worthy of worship.

1 Corinthians
3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Matthew
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected [Jesus], the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Confessing sins to a priest. Petitioning saints and Mary.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - We are to confess our sins and needs to God alone.

I John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Matthew
6:9, 12 After this manner...pray ye: Our Father... forgive us....

1 Timothy
2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus [not Mary, not saints, not priests, not the pope];

I John 2:1, ...And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

* * * *
There are many other scriptures that could have been used here to testify against the doctrines of the catholic religion. There are also many other doctrines of the catholic religion which could have been refuted (e.g. the sacraments, receiving the Holy Ghost, salvation through the catholic religion, penance, rosary, etc.).

* * * *
The Catholic religion has a history of taking the money of poor widows in order to say masses for the dead (which do no good) and collecting the material possessions of nuns. In Italy, the heart of Roman Catholicism, there is a saying that goes, "Without money, they don't sing the mass." That trickery is evil on a number of fronts--1) the mass is blasphemous and dishonours the finished work of Christ 2) people who trust in the mass waste their money and go to hell 3) their survivors waste their money and possessions having masses said for the dead 4) the survivors go to hell and then their survivors pay for masses...the costumed curia have subverted whole houses for centuries on end collecting wealth of the coffers of the Roman Catholic institution 5) the doctrine of purgatory is a heresy because there is no such thing as purgatory--it is not in the Bible and (the apocrypha is not part of the Bible, it is a collection of spurious books) and 6) they blaspheme God when they put a monetary price on the gift of God because the Bible teaches that the gift of God is without price.

I've heard it said that the Roman Catholic institution is the wealthiest government in the world. It owns a good share of America's hospitals and has many real estate interests. She has a history of collecting lands and wealth through the ages. One look at her splendor confirms this. The bottom line is, if you want to get right with God, you have to go through his Son, Jesus Christ, according to his word, not the word of man and his traditions.

29 June 2011 17:53  
Blogger len said...

Look to find the truth of the matter(are Catholics following false dogma and traditions) is very simple.

1,Write down all the Catholic traditions and dogmas.Make a list (it will be a long one!.)

2,Try and find these in the Word of God, the Bible ( not a Catholic one)Everything which you cannot find a Scriptural basis(without stretching your imagination too far)cross out,what you will be left with is Biblical Christianity.

If further proof is needed,imagine totally separating from the Catholic Church,would you still be saved and on your way to Heaven?
By making this comparison you will see that you are not totally dependant on Christ, but the Catholic Church has made you dependant on the 'Catholic salvation system.'
However you dress it up you have added works to Grace.

29 June 2011 17:57  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Mr Oswin,

Thank you for your appreciation of my attempts at levity; I'm ever happy to entertain, especially in these trying times...and as long as I don't get too carried away to prompt His Grace to put his foot down on my tomfoolery, and I find myself with egg on my face and an Avi-Last-Chance-Barzel moniker around my stiff neck.

29 June 2011 18:29  
Anonymous Pastor Jim Bucker III said...

Len, Brother in the RISEN LORD, I have already done as you suggest (SEE ABOVE) and it proves without doubt that the Catholic Church is

1. A cult
2. Unchristian
3. Not based on BIBLE TRUTH

As you say you do NOT need a Catholic salvation system- the only way to SALVATION is to believe and accept the RISEN LORD AS YOUR SAVIOUR.

GOD BLESS ERNST AND LEN.

GOD DAM DODO AND THE ANTI-CHRIST LORD LAVENDON.

AMEN!

29 June 2011 18:35  
Blogger len said...

Pastor Jim Bucker III,

Keep up the fight Brother, may the name of Jesus be lifted high!

29 June 2011 18:45  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Len and Pastor Jim Bucker III said...

Agree with what you state however you hit the 2 chaps around the head with a wet great white shark.lol.The poor things.aaah.

Ernsty

29 June 2011 18:58  
Anonymous Eucharist Wafer said...

Ernst, I shall be masquerading as whatever I want to. Anyway, I have to meet with the whore of bablyon now. trust you understand old cock.

29 June 2011 19:03  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Eucharist Wafer

Toodle Pip old sport.

Don't let the door hit your fanny on the way out.

Regards to Pope Benny.

There's a fine Papist Sacriment.

Ernsty.

29 June 2011 19:16  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Pastor Jim Bucker III, please do tell why you think I'm the Anti-Christ? That is a pretty big libel against me isn't it?

29 June 2011 19:21  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Lord L said 29 June 2011 19:21

"Pastor Jim Bucker III, please do tell why you think I'm the Anti-Christ? That is a pretty big libel against me isn't it?"

This is better than the telly tonight.

Ernsty's dinner by the pc, shepherd's pie.
This should be interesting.

Ernst.

29 June 2011 19:25  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Ernsty, no I take such matters on the chin, sticks and stones etc, besides which I have had far worst things done to me and have had to fight far worse bloody battles than anything you or Len could think of.

I would suggest you read my blog and make a re-evaluation of where I am coming from... you might be suprised. In fact, Len, Pastor Jim Bucker III and Dodo are also welcome to review and comment.

To Jim Bucker III :

I am a little bit hurt, OK I'm bally well 'piss*d off' to be called an anti-christ,perhaps because I am Anglican who desires to hav a slightly more constructive dialogue with Roman Catholics than simply dismissing their position (s) without debating the arguments (of which Bucker has argued) first.

I should have perhaps make it clear that I write on this blog, not as an apologist for the Roman Church (Dodo & others can do that without any help for me), but for one who realises that in the face of the oncoming storm of the religion of peace, one must seek out those who claim to follow the ways of the cross of Christ.

You chaps seem to think that I believe that good works alone get one to heaven. In fact this is incorrect as any glance at the Bible will tell you. It is only through faith, that one can do so. I am happy to provide you with the Chapters and verses. I would also add, though, that the good works of the Christian flow from that belief; it is something that the Christian is called to do.

It seems to me,that, given His Grace, our kind host (who is clearly a generous man, letting the arguments, however inflamatory to be published) is also an Anglican then you are also suggesting that the writer and owner of this site is some time of 'anti christ' as well.

To Len, it is a pity that you did not disclaim the bit about "God Dam Lord Lavendon, the Anti-Christ" in your well wish to Pastor Bucker III. This is shameful, especially as I agree with 90% to 99% of what you say.

Regards Lavendon.

29 June 2011 19:37  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Ernsty, you are right. There is sod all on telly and this is good viewing. I trust that the shepherd's pie is not some ghastly 'ready meal', but has been lovingly prepared by the Mrs Ernsty?

I am worried why English Viking isn't sticking his axe into the debate. Or for that matter the long term communicant Anabaptist.

Also, where is Len and Dodo?

29 June 2011 19:40  
Anonymous Holy Inquisitor of the Congregation of faith and order said...

Pastor Jim Bucker III shall rot in the everlasting pit of hell and damnation. The only way to God is through the Church- the ONE TRUE HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

Heretial FOOLS! Turn to the Church and be saved or be DAMMED with your silly protestant lies!

GOD DAM LEN AND ERNSTY. GOD DAM LAVENDON FOR BEING PATHETIC C OF E.

29 June 2011 19:43  
Anonymous Eucharist Wafer said...

I agree wih 19.43 :

Len, Lord Lavendon, Ernsty, Mr J and Pastor Bucker III ARE ALL AGAINST THE ONE TRUE CHURCH OF GOD! KNEEL AT THE FOOT OF THE POPE OR BE HURLED TO OBLIVION!

29 June 2011 19:54  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Lord L said

"Ernsty, no I take such matters on the chin, sticks and stones etc, besides which I have had far worst things done to me and have had to fight far worse bloody battles than anything you or Len could think of." Stated 'interesting' as I am interested in what you have to say only, not for any other reason!

"I trust that the shepherd's pie is not some ghastly 'ready meal', but has been lovingly prepared by the Mrs Ernsty?" Sorry but Mrs B is the only woman that can overcook a minute meal and blame the lack of defined instructions.

Ernsty's uses his fair hands to make sure my family are fed properly.

"I am worried why English Viking isn't sticking his axe into the debate." Then you would be for it, my lad! LOL Bigtime.

"There is sod all on telly and this is good viewing." Sticks in the craw that Ernst has to pay to the Biased Broadcasting Corporation for this twaddle.

"To Len, it is a pity that you did not disclaim the bit about "God Dam Lord Lavendon, the Anti-Christ" in your well wish to Pastor Bucker III. This is shameful, especially as I agree with 90% to 99% of what you say."

Why Ernst spoke differently in his comment to you rather than how he did with LCD.

Ernsty, My Lordship.;)

ps Holy Inquisitor of the Congregation of faith and order said...
OOPS what have we unleashed from the Tiber faithful. HeyHo.

29 June 2011 19:55  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Eucharist wafer said 29 June 2011 19:54

The piece of bread that refuses to say 'Ego vobis valedico'.lol.

Ernsty,my crispy likkle friend.

29 June 2011 19:59  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Ernsty, yes, yes I know you wrote differently to myself, so that particular part of my post was not directed at you.

Good to see that you are the chef of the household, as am I.

BTW- English Viking has an axe, but I have a rather trusty longsword, rather leathal, but one needs to be in full battle mode for what is to come (with regret I was a bit of a warrior in my time, with nothing other than the defence of blessed Albion in my heart : The Spanish Armada,Napoleon, The Kaiser, Hitler, Stalin and the other foes of the Albion Empire).

If that is what is mentioned in Revelation I have no idea. But a storm is gathering and when that happens the lights of Europe and the world will go out for a generation.I therefore suspect that myself and viking would be fighting together and not against one another.

29 June 2011 20:07  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Oh no, it looks like the Roman Catholic fundamentalists are out for me as well...

29 June 2011 20:10  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Lord L said

"Good to see that you are the chef of the household, as am I." Dear boy, if only..Ernst is chief dish washer, food buyer, bill payer etc as Mrs B finds it all boring unless of course she gets the call of the wild from bhs etc that there is 30% off sale and then she is into town like a dying elephant in search of a graveyard. They are a different sex INDEED.LOL.

"But a storm is gathering and when that happens the lights of Europe and the world will go out for a generation.I therefore suspect that myself and viking would be fighting together and not against one another."
Have no fear, Ernsty will be there leading from the front also, Lord Willing, with his deathray.lol.

Ernsty, my lordship.

ps
"Oh no, it looks like the Roman Catholic fundamentalists are out for me as well..." You are either with them or are deemed against them if you will not agree in toto, old chap.
There is no middle ground to them.

Why Ernst desires peace but never unity, it is impossible to have freedom of conscience.

29 June 2011 20:24  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

Oh My God what on earth is going on tonight? Clearly 'care in the community' is failing!

I've read some stuff on here but really where is this hate coming from? Surely not from God who is Love!

To think I was advised to leave this site principally for having
an anti-Anglican temperament. Admittedly I was also unnecessarily and unfairly critical of the host too.

I really cannot believe some of the above posts! More than one is clearly and fake and deliberately so. Why would people want to do this?

29 June 2011 20:45  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

"Oh My God what on earth is going on tonight? Clearly 'care in the community' is failing!" Is that the best you can muster..pathetic!

"To think I was advised to leave this site principally for having
an anti-Anglican temperament." Must we only have an opinion that is compatible with RC dogma. You claim you are the only true church, we disagree hence the sentiment.

"I really cannot believe some of the above posts!"
Seeing really is believing, is it not old sport.

Get a grip old boy.

Ernsty

29 June 2011 20:52  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

And who is talking to themselves under the cover of Pastor Jim Buckerlll?

29 June 2011 20:55  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Lord Lavendon said, "I am worried why English Viking isn't sticking his axe into the debate. Or for that matter the long term communicant Anabaptist...Also, where is Len and Dodo?"

Oops. Well, see folks, with all the enthusiastic proselytizing going on, I thought I'd go against my own traditions and have a go at this sport too. And what success!

Hence, the persons formerly known to you as Anabaptist, Len and Dodo are unavailable at the moment as they are now all sitting somewhat pensively, waiting for me to attempt the Covenant of Abraham as soon as I've successfully fortified my nerves and calmed my shaky hands with liberal chugs from a bottle of McClelland's Islay.

29 June 2011 21:07  
Anonymous Petronius said...

It's all very puzzling.
I would like to ask if anyone can clarify what Len meant by "a Catholic Bible" in his 17:57 comment. Which specific editions/translations are to be avoided? I thought the Bible was just the Bible (at least, I'm talking about most of the well-known translations like the KJV, or RSV or NIV). I was not aware that there was a specific Catholic edition, but that could just be my ignorance. Thanks for any assistance which anyone can give me on this point.

29 June 2011 21:12  
Anonymous Cardinal Sin, Holy Spanish Inquisition said...

Ernst is correct in one thing only @Lord Lavendon. You must choose between the only true Church of salvation (i.e. the Roman Catholic Church) or the lies and falsehoods of Len, Ernst and the insane Pastor Bucker III. One way leads to salvation. The other to sin and death. So choose you fool! Choose the right path to salvation!

29 June 2011 21:54  
Anonymous 'care in the community' said...

It's OK. The lunatics will be in bed by 10.

29 June 2011 21:55  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

This reminds me of the Mel Brooks film when he does a song about the Spainsh Inquisition...anyone know the film i'm talking about?

29 June 2011 21:57  
Anonymous Jewish Bag lady (in space) said...

Poor old Lord Lavy, my favourite gentile being attacked like this, well if the pro-israel lavy is called the anti-christ then so am i!

29 June 2011 22:20  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In reply to the Hon Lord Lavendon CofE

The Mel Brooks film is History of the World Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5McSEU48Y8

29 June 2011 22:51  
Anonymous Pastor Jim Bucker III said...

Dodo- I speak for myself. The whore of Babylon is the catholic church, who is lead by satan himself. Lord lavendon is the anti-christ for posing as an evangelical, yet one who associates with the church of rome. it is as simple as that. repent now all ye sinners or be forever doomed, sayeth the LORD OF HOSTS!

29 June 2011 23:03  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So Cranmer, where are your balls in rebuking the likes of Jim Bucker and ther other hateful people around here? You wanted to get rid of dodo for being 'anti anglican', yet you tolerate the ultra protestant fringe, which has little time for your church either.

you sad fuck.

and i bet that this gets deleted because i called you a fuck (which you are because you tolerate such bigotry). you fucker. if only you could see what fuckers ernest, len and english viking were. get off your fucking high horse and start deleting some of these fucking shit posters .
You are basically agreeing to double standards.

Bet your chum iain dale wouldn't approve.

29 June 2011 23:30  
Anonymous zim VII said...

I think Jim Bucker has basically show the catholic church for what it is; a cult worshipping the pope and the virgin mary.

29 June 2011 23:40  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

Levity, irony and sarcasm mixed with outrageous parody under false identities. Is this really the way to approach the Christian message divisions?

The problem with the posts from those arguing Roman Catholicism is 'evil' or 'misguided' is deciding whether they suggest serious underlying mental health problems, genuine faith that robustly stated or mischievious game playing.

Maybe it's actually all three!

29 June 2011 23:47  
Anonymous Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus said...

for a person to be saved - and avoid Hell - it is absolutely necessary that they be subject to the Pope. All Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and followers of other non-Christian religions STR destined for Hell. All members of Protestant, Anabaptist, Mormon, and other Christian denominations are headed there as well.

30 June 2011 00:01  
Anonymous Leonard Feeney said...

only Roman Catholics can go to heaven and everyone else will be damned.

30 June 2011 00:09  
Anonymous Holy Inquisitor of the congregation of faith and order said...

The Most Holy Roman Church, founded by the word of our Lord and Savior firmly believes, professes and preaches that no persons living outside the Catholic Church – not only pagans but also Jews, heretics and schismatics – can come to share in eternal life, but will go into the eternal fire unless they are aggregated to her before the end of their life.

30 June 2011 00:19  
Blogger The Last (Chance) Dodo said...

Also meant to add something about the names you cited.

Mr len seems okay and genuine to me. We disagree strongly but to his credit he is always to the point and never uses personal abuse. English Viking presents as a rather obnoxious character but I don't think he means harm at all. In fact I bet he'd be great on a night out with a pint in hand.

Now there are a couple of bloggers who are actually very bright and extremely well educated and read. They like to play games using cryptic comments and allusions to literature and history. Clever, clever men but their true motives I cannot discern.

Just thought I'd add these comments.

30 June 2011 00:23  
Anonymous Levity, irony and sarcasm mixed with outrageous parody said...

Dodo said

" I think part of the problem is the use of false identities on here. People just make up temporary names or post as anonymous. Straw men are set up, outrageous statements made and then the 'voice of reason' moves in. There's a kind of 'tag-team' in play too with mutual back-slapping"

Welcome to the Cranmer blog dude!

30 June 2011 00:24  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Mr len seems okay and genuine to me. We disagree strongly but to his credit he is always to the point and never uses personal abuse. English Viking presents as a rather obnoxious character but I don't think he means harm at all. In fact I bet he'd be great on a night out with a pint in hand."

IS DODO INSANE?????????????

30 June 2011 00:26  
Anonymous Man of Perdition said...

"Now there are a couple of bloggers who are actually very bright and extremely well educated and read. They like to play games using cryptic comments and allusions to literature and history. Clever, clever men but their true motives I cannot discern."

Well, I thought you'd have guest by now.

30 June 2011 00:28  
Anonymous Martin Luther said ... said...

"Therefore he who would find Christ must first find the Church. ... And he who would know anything of Christ must not trust himself nor build a bridge to heaven by his own reason; but he must go to the Church."

30 June 2011 00:32  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

'Man of Perdition' (you take onto yourself this title?) said ...

"Well, I thought you'd have guest (sic) by now."

Me I have given an undertaking to the blogmaster to be more considered in my responses to others.

I would be failing in this if I made rash judgements leading to misguided comments, whether wilful or otherwise. One can only rely on the benefit of the doubt for so long.

So polite and considered replies from now on. The substance will not be changing, only the presentation style.

30 June 2011 02:01  
Anonymous Saladin said...

I need to meet this Pope Benedict chappie to bring Europe and Asia together. I'm sure there is much common ground between us.

30 June 2011 09:01  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

To all the RC adherents out there.

Nobody holds a grudge like you chaps.

Why are you not seeing or hearing the Word of the Lord?

Psalm 115

1 Not to us, O Lord, not to us
but to your name be the glory,
because of your love and faithfulness.
2 Why do the nations say,
“Where is their God?”
3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.
4 But their idols are silver and gold, made by the hands of men.
5 They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but they cannot see;
6 they have ears, but cannot hear,
noses, but they cannot smell;
7 they have hands, but cannot feel,
feet, but they cannot walk;
nor can they utter a sound with their throats.
8 Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them.

Ezekiel 12:2

fili hominis in medio domus exasperantis tu habitas qui oculos habent ad videndum et non vident et aures ad audiendum et non audiunt quia domus exasperans est

Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini.

Ernsty, my old tiber faithful.

30 June 2011 11:38  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Yes, I concur, the total anonymity thing is at the heart of the problem of rampant nuttery, vile behaviour and conspiracy paranoia on the blogs. At the same time, it's vital to have the option for anonymity from the general public; free speech doesn't do well in a busy-body society where employers, social agencies, government departments, the police and whoever else routiely collect info just because they can.

One alternative I like is to introduce oneself to the blog owner with one's real identity and contact info. Being a member of several such blogs, I can confirm that getting an email from a blog master to "cool it" works really well. Contrary to current ideas, shame, even the red-in-the-face, swallow-me-earth kind, is very good for us and society in general.

For the record, I've introduced myself to His Grace under my present moniker and he knows my "secular name," (at the bottom of my bio page in my gallery site, YG). My nome de plume here btw, is not a made-up pseudonym, but my Hebrew name, known to many in my community, a modest corner of the art world and the emerging brotherhood of Canadian Winter Road truckers (something has to pay for my artistic pretenses and attempts at Talmud studies). I believe His Grace also has my home telephone number...should he prefer to shout at me on the day I cross the line...and if not, he can have it on request, since he has my email. I urge others to indroduce themselves as well, even if for no other reason than the courtesy of being a good guest.

30 June 2011 14:15  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Anonymous @ 23:30:

Does Nanny know that you are up so late?

30 June 2011 17:38  
Anonymous Anonymous staying Anonymous said...

Avi Barzel

Are you being ironic - you cannot be serious!

Pass personal details to the blogmaster? Maybe if his identity was known.

1 July 2011 00:44  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Anonymous staying Anonymous,

Serious. They are the same details I list on my gallery website, btw. You and everyone here will also be privy to them once I fix up my messy site and start posting its URL beside my name. It will make little difference to anyone's life. Now, if I were to give out to the public real time GPS locations and route schedules whenever I'm about to haul a load of electronics cross-country on lonely side roads and minor highways in an 18-wheeler, now that would make me a little fidgety, I'll admit.

Besides, His Grace stays anonymous because, apparently, even he does not know who he is. When asked in an interview, he replied, "His Grace has asked himself this very question many times. He is still none the wiser."

1 July 2011 06:21  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "Besides, His Grace stays anonymous because, apparently, even he does not know who he is."

His Grace's RL identity is not actually a proper secret. However, the point of writing a blog in this way is that the use of a pseudonym is a literary device. It also technically divorces the views from the RL person, which is useful for writing controversal stuff to stimulate debate, and useful if one has a job which can be brought into disrepute.

1 July 2011 21:57  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "You and everyone here will also be privy to them once I fix up my messy site and start posting its URL beside my name. It will make little difference to anyone's life."

Several small examples which might make a difference.

I'm gay and being gay (or technically acting on it) is a religious issue. Even on this blog, I've had someone, a Christian and BNP member, google my moniker to try to find out stuff about me. That's nominally okay, I guess. What raised my eyebrows a bit more is that it seems the same person actually registered with Gaydar (a gay dating site) to try to find out if I used the same moniker there and presumably to find out rather more intimate details.

On another forum I was on ... nothing to do with religion ... one of the forum disagreements there resulted in someone ringing up hospitals based on a few snippets of information divulged, one of which that she worked in the NHS, and then writing muliple complaints to the other person's employer to try to get them sacked.

There are some pretty mad people on forums.

1 July 2011 22:06  
Blogger len said...

Tell me about it!.
Oh you did.

2 July 2011 11:59  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Despite appearances to the contrary, I quite like you Len albeit mostly for your religious nuttery. Just as well really, since you like to bracket everything I say here. ;)

2 July 2011 16:04  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

THE 11th HOUR

The Lord's Return is at MIDNIGHT:

"At MIDNIGHT there was a cry made, Behold the Bridegroom comes" (Matthew 25:6)

God clearly marked 11 o’clock when WORLD WAR I ended on:

The 11th hour

of the 11th day

of the 11th month of 1918

Exactly 11 months after General Allenby entered Jerusalem and freed it from Turkish domination (11th December 1917) which was a major step to Israel's rebirth -for at that time Britain committed to make it a homeland for the Jews

WORLD-WAR and the RESTORATION of ISRAEL are the 2 key signs of being in the last days before the Lord's Return (Matthew 24) Both began to occur together and marked the start of the FINAL HOUR of the Age -11pm confirmed by God in the timing of the end of World War I.

4 July 2011 12:35  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

DanJ,

I expressed myself poorly, and in case I've made things worse by misunderstanding your comment, my pre-emptive apologies. I said that His Grace doesn't know who he is very much tongue-in-cheek; if there is anyone who has his feet planted firmly on the ground in the whole of Albion, I'd say it would be HG.

As for "blogging-while-Gay," especially on a religion and politics site where some like to voice very---umm, definitite views about some things in very certain terms--I certainly understand your concerns. But the nutter problem exists also because of full anonymity, which provides them not only with protection from censorship and political penalties, but the ability to promote criminal acts without consequence. I was careful to point out too, that the blog owner would be justified in knowing the name behind the moniker on his blog, and would add that he would be responsible for protecting the identity of the poste.

I won't get into a competition with you about whether it's safer to be an "outed" Gay person or a fire-spitting Zionist, like I am (my guess is that it's easier to be both Gay or Zionist in Canada than in Europe) but at this point in time I would say we both have good reason to believe that our laws, their enforcement and popular sentiment would at least prevent harm from befalling us on a regular and socially acceptable basis. It's a hope and a stretch, but I still think that civil society cannot survive for long with either excessive state intrusion, or excessive privacy and anonymity.

4 July 2011 19:56  

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