Friday, June 03, 2011

Mitt Romney: can a Mormon take the White House?

Mitt Romney has confirmed that he is to make another bid for the White House in November 2012. He will base his campaign on the assertion that ‘Barack Obama has failed America’. His focus will be the economy, hammering home the message that ‘the Government under President Obama has grown to consume almost 40 per cent of our economy’ which apparently means that the US is ‘only inches away from ceasing to be a free-market economy’.

The problem for Mr Romney is that whatever he attempts to make the political focus or the central message of his campaign, he will be confronted at every turn with an almost innate American suspicion of his Mormon faith. For most Trinitarian Christians (by no means just the Evangelical ‘Christian Right’), the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a cult whose theology is heretical and whose customs are anachronistic (to say the least). The Southern Baptist Convention firmly categorises Mormons with Scientologists; among those sects who have blasphemously added to Scripture and are under the control of false prophets. This is not insignificant for the Republican Party, whose evangelical base constitutes almost a third of the party's electorate and can wield considerable power in primary states, most notably South Carolina.

In an attempt to neutralise this, Mitt Romney has said that America is choosing a commander-in-chief not a pastor-in-chief. He is attempting to echo the reasoning of John F Kennedy, the first Roman Catholic to take the White House, who placated Protestant church leaders with the declaration that he was ‘not the Catholic candidate for President’ but instead was ‘the Democratic Party's candidate for President, who happens also to be Catholic’. He went on to allege (as Mitt Romney is doing) that those who play the religion card have something to hide. He said:
But because I am a Catholic, and no Catholic has ever been elected President, the real issues in this campaign have been obscured - perhaps deliberately, in some quarters less responsible than this. So it is apparently necessary for me to state once again - not what kind of church I believe in, for that should be important only to me - but what kind of America I believe in.
Well, it worked for him, even if it didn’t end well.

But Roman Catholics are Trinitarian and share many of the social concerns of America’s Evangelicals, particularly on the family, abortion, civil rights and poverty alleviation. And while the US Constitution affirms that ‘no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust’ (Article VI), it must be observed that Republican candidates are invariably asked at some point if they believe the Bible to be the inviolable Word of God, and none has ever quoted Article VI in response. It appears that one only becomes President of the United States by the adoption of the American Creed and with the majority assent of the American Church.

Certainly, Mitt Romney can (and probably will) say that he believes that ‘Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the savior of mankind’. But the theological ambiguities will not be expounded (and ‘ambiguities’ is putting it politely). The Mormon god is not spirit, but a mortal, material being of flesh and blood who progressed to deity, as all men may. If believers are good and faithful, each will be given a planet of their own to rule. The Mormon god lives in heaven in a polygamous relationship with multiple wives, and sexually reproduces. In common with Eastern religions, there is a variation on reincarnation as Mormons believe in the pre-existence of all people in heaven before they were born on earth.

While Mitt Romney worships Jesus Christ, this is not the Jesus revealed in Scripture. The biblical Jesus was with God in the beginning and was God: the Mormon Jesus was conceived and born in heaven first as a ‘spirit child’ by God the Father in union with one of his wives. Jesus was the first-born spirit child, and Lucifer was his second. Thus Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. The orthodox Christian teaching is that God became man and was born of a virgin. For Mormons, the heavenly man-god came to earth and had sexual relations with Mary, and Jesus was the result. Mormons do not believe in the eternal deity of Jesus: he became a god only after living a virtuous life on earth. He then appeared before the council of gods that meet near a star called Kolob, who declared him to be a god in the pantheon of gods. It is a religion of salvation by works, which even the Son of God has to earn.

What would Christopher Hitchens or doctors Richard Dawkins and Evan Harris make of this? It’s bad enough for them when politicians believe in virgin births, the resurrection of Nazarene carpenters, papal infallibility or the verbatim dictation by the Archangel Gabriel of a book in perfect Arabic. Not that Evan Harris is in the same league as the other two, you understand. But he tends to pop up with tedious regularity whenever religion dares to encroach into the public sphere, spluttering his hard-line secularism.

John F Kennedy had to persuade the sceptical American people that the White House would not become an embassy of the Vatican, and neither would the US President do the Pope’s bidding. But, for a nation born out of the struggle for liberation from religious tyranny, his words frequently rang hollow: the prejudices were only overcome by oratorical skill. At times, the communication of his dreams and visions were redolent of Martin Luther King Jnr:
I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute - where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote - where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference - and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.
That speech was made in 1960, yet 50 years later the land of the free still does not permit all men to be equal. The inequalities may no longer be based upon race or gender, but they are manifest and legion when it comes to religion. Barack Obama knows only too well how damaging even a whiff of Islam can be.

To win the White House, Mitt Romney has to become mainstream; he has to overcome the widespread perception that in office he will be the mouthpiece of a cult that wants the White House in order to realise a particular celestial heaven. To achieve this, he will need to detoxify the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints, and persuade America that it is not a cult that seeks to do harm, but a bona fide religion; a positive, respectable and beneficial spiritual force. And yet the moment he attempts to do that, he will be accused of being a proselytising apologist for his theological cause.

There are, of course, too many relativist considerations in the present age for terms like ‘harm’ and ‘beneficial’ to be expounded. Even the democratic primacy of ‘mainstream’ is undermined by the deference displayed to every fragmented religious minority interest, for fear of causing offence. In the final analysis, every cult is now a religion because no-one is perceived to have the political right or the spiritual authority to tell anyone else what they should or should not believe, or what they may and may not do. Liberty has become a deity.

Since we are now obliged to respect all religious beliefs and revere every spirituality, perhaps Mitt Romney would make the perfect postmodern presidential candidate. All men may not be equal, but all religions certainly are. Islam is as great as Judaism and as noble as Christianity, which are just as worthy of respect as Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, and any and every other spiritual ‘-ism’ which emanates from the mind of man. Mormonism? Well, why not?

157 Comments:

Anonymous Voyager said...

Having met Mitt Romney in person I rather liked him and I think he could be a good President, but he has several obstacles besides his Mormonism. He is a millionaire from Bain Capital which means he essentially profited handsomely from the very activities that many Americans think caused economic collapse.

Obama was elected because he was too junior a Senator, unelected in fact, to have been corrupted by the 1980s and 1990s....so he was elected as The Outsider on the Mr Deeds Goes To Town ticket to throw the moneychangers from the Temple after the Clinton-Cheney Era.

Unfortunately with Raul Emmanuel and Timothy Geithner he had the cast of Goldman Sachs Extras in the White House and served basically to work for Wall Street.

There are Father Coughlin moments up ahead and maybe a Huey Long, but Mitt Romney might simply be too soft and too rich to cut it as a hard-edged leader - maybe a retired General will be an option

3 June 2011 at 10:02  
Blogger I am Stan said...

Your Grace,

Mitto will have to clearly separate his religion from his politics in the American peoples minds, I doubt thats possible, he`s a lot going for him though, looks good on tv, charismatic, with shed loads of money and living the American dream.

He could do well with a stop Pallin campaign but I doubt he can beat O`Bama what with him being Irish and killing Binny.

Kolob!.....that near Krypton?

3 June 2011 at 10:13  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, if they can elect a Muslim, why not a Mormon?

3 June 2011 at 10:33  
Anonymous Zog, King of Kolob said...

Oy. Watch it...!

3 June 2011 at 11:00  
Blogger Caedmon's Cat said...

Hmmm.. There's an interesting and intriguing relationship between Mormonism and Freemasonry; Joseph Smith was a 'shriner' (as was Charles Taze Russell of the JWs); their special temples are off-limits to all but the initiated select few of their ranks. Oh - and their theology from these mysterious tablets is a breathtaking catalogue of fictions. Or kolobs - if you prefer to describe it that way.

3 June 2011 at 11:26  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

Cranmer said

Since we are now obliged to respect all religious beliefs, and revere every spirituality, perhaps Mitt Romney would make the perfect postmodern presidential candidate. All men may not be equal, but all religions certainly are. Islam is as great as Judaism and as noble as Christianity, which are just as worthy of respect as Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, and any and every other spiritual ‘-ism’ which emanates from the mind of man. Mormonism? Well, why not?

The thinly disguised subtext of that remark is of course that Christianity is superior to the others. Fortunately we are not required to respect any religious belief as they are all as daft as each other.

3 June 2011 at 11:39  
Anonymous Bog son of Zog said...

Stan, Kolob is further away than Krypton, but not as far as Arakis.

3 June 2011 at 11:43  
Anonymous Zog, King of Kolob said...

Bog, speak when you are spoken to.

3 June 2011 at 11:50  
Blogger I am Stan said...

Your Grace,

There is a theory (as I`m sure you are aware) that God/Gods were in fact ancient aliens who visited upon the Earth and not only bred with humans but also taught mankind to build and in fact built the pyramids,also to write, play music and the sciences etc.

Perhaps there`s something in this Kolob thingy! is that where the Gods/aliens live.

3 June 2011 at 11:56  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Incidentally, Eisenhower was raised a Jehovah's Witless, but was baptised as a Presbyterian AFTER he became President - so there is hope ....

3 June 2011 at 12:03  
Anonymous John Tyndale said...

"Fortunately we are not required to respect any religious belief as they are all as daft as each other".

As usual Graham Davies exhibits his usual lack of respect towards the faithful- which is why his utopian "secular state" would take us back to the days of 1930s Russia.

3 June 2011 at 12:15  
Anonymous Qog son of Zog, brother of Bog said...

Short cut, go left at Krypton,right at the Kronos roundabout, head towards Vulcan, Kolob`s on the left.

Beware Klingons

3 June 2011 at 12:25  
Anonymous Imperial Alpha Draconis Ambassador said...

Qog, song of Zog, brother of Bog: I bring greetings from the supreme Empire of Alpha Draconis and remind you that according to inter galactic treaty 00190981, sub-section 777, that Earth is ours to rule (if we so wish to)! So keep your mits off this sector of space or be anihalated by the grand space battle fleet!

3 June 2011 at 12:37  
Anonymous Chancellor Worf, son or Morg said...

The Klingons have no fear of the honourless quo'ath that is the Kolob Empire!

3 June 2011 at 12:39  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

*sigh*

3 June 2011 at 12:41  
Anonymous Doctor Who's brother, Dr What said...

"There is a theory (as I`m sure you are aware) that God/Gods were in fact ancient aliens who visited upon the Earth and not only bred with humans but also taught mankind to build and in fact built the pyramids,also to write, play music and the sciences etc."

I think 'I am Stan' has been watching the Sci-Fi series "Stargate, SG1"?

3 June 2011 at 12:42  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mitt Romney will be the New York Times candidate and will get the Republican nomination (as did previous NYT candidate John McCain). They will ignore his religion and make him out to be the "safe pair of hands" candidate until half a second after he gets them nomination. Then he'll instantly be vilified as a racist cult leader.

3 June 2011 at 12:42  
Anonymous His Imperial Majesty, Mater of the 7 Legions of Snark, Admiral of the 9th Fleet (the dog's kolobs) said...

What a load of old Kolobs.

3 June 2011 at 12:48  
Blogger DaveR said...

As a regular reader f this blog, I'm rather disappointed that Cranmer has chosen to reproduce such misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the Church of which I am a part. I can only assume, like many others, that he has merely obtained without checking from other sources.

To cover just a few:

1) "among those sects who have blasphemously added to Scripture and are under the control of false prophets" - Surely the crux of the issue, for we affirm these are true prophets, and thus true scripture. The concept that the canon is closed, like the concept canon itself, postdates the writing of the biblical text.

2)"But Roman Catholics are Trinitarian and share many of the social concerns of America’s Evangelicals, particularly on the family, abortion, civil rights and poverty alleviation." - Does one have to point out that Latter day Saints, while certainly not trinitarian, *also* share many of the social concerns of Catholics & Evangelicals? Why does Cranmer imply otherwise?

3) "The Mormon god is not spirit, but a mortal, material being of flesh and blood who progressed to deity, as all men may. If believers are good and faithful, each will be given a planet of their own to rule. The Mormon god lives in heaven in a polygamous relationship with multiple wives, and sexually reproduces." Mormons hold that God has 'a body of flesh and bone as tangible as man's' (D&C 130:22), as indeed does Jesus (so clearly corporeality is not incompatible with deity, unless you make a mockery of the resurrection), but this is not a mortal body. We affirm that through the Gospel of Christ, all may be 'heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ' (Romans 8:17) and so receive 'all that my Father hath' (D&C 84:38). Much of the rest is misrepresentation - I defy anyone to find a reference to members receiving 'a planet of their own to rule' - an attempt merely to make our theology sound like sci-fi to dismiss it by means of association.

3) On Jesus, we find our beliefs in the Bible just as much as creedal Christians do, in that he was 'the firstborn of every creature' (Colossians 1:15). However, unlike the other spirit children of our Father in Heaven (namely us), he was already deity before the creation of this earth, being the 'God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth' (3 Nephi 11:14) and being the one who 'gave the law' of Moses (3 Nephi 15:5). The Adversary was, as are we, likewise a spirit child of our Father in Heaven (not sure where you're dragging 'second born' from...), but *fell* and became the devil. As for Jesus's birth, we affirm he was the only-begotten son of the Father in the flesh, but clearly state he was born of a *virgin* (1 Nephi 11:18, Alma 7:10)

4) On salvation, 'we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.' (2 Nephi 25:23). The Atonement of Christ is essential, but we must receive this gift, by our faith, repentance and obedience (Articles of Faith 3 & 4). Is Cranmer asserting that repentance & such is unneccessary when Christ clearly taught this?

5) Variety of other things could be looked at or examined in closer detail. Just to pick a few things out, the one chapter which refers to 'Kolob' (not a major feature of LDS theology) states 'which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God' (Abraham 3:9). References to time and so forth must be coupled with Alma 40:8 'all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto man'. Is this really so different to 2 Peter 3:8? And lest one forget, the Urim and Thummim happen to be *biblical*, although details there are lacking.

If one is in need of primary sources as to what Mormons believe, the 'Standard Works' (namely the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price), which are accepted as scripture, are available here: http://lds.org/scriptures?lang=eng

3 June 2011 at 12:49  
Blogger I am Stan said...

@ Dr What...no not Stargate SG1, Ancient Aliens on Sky Discovery Channel

3 June 2011 at 13:02  
Anonymous Tim Duck said...

DavidR, I always thought that Mormons thought that Americans were the lost tribe of Israel or something and that somehow Jesus Christ was an American?

3 June 2011 at 13:04  
Anonymous Malcolm Hulke said...

Is it only me or does Mitt Romney rhymn with Van Rompouy? I sense a conspiracy theory coming on...

3 June 2011 at 13:07  
Blogger DaveR said...

Present day Americans are present day Americans.

The Book of Mormon tells of several families leaving Jerusalem shortly before the Babylonian captivity, making it to the New World, and forming several civilisations there before collapsing. These are not the lost tribes (who are elsewhere). 3 Nephi (a book in the Book of Mormon) has Christ visit these people following his resurrection, seen as a fulfillment of John 10:16. Christ is not held to be American.

3 June 2011 at 13:12  
Anonymous Curate's Egg said...

David R is quite right when he says "Christ is not held to be an American" and that is because God's an Englishman! (and if he's not he is still a good egg).

3 June 2011 at 13:19  
Blogger DaveR said...

I dont know about that - my understanding is that the sun never set on the British empire because God didn't trust us in the dark.

3 June 2011 at 13:20  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dave R,

May the force be with you!

You do think that Jesus is Satan's brother though, don't you?

PS Joseph Smith? Not the very same Joseph Smith, the Freemason and serial liar and adulterer, that died in a wild-west prison shoot-out after being arrested for leading an armed militia in insurrection?

Shurley there must be shum mistake?

3 June 2011 at 13:29  
Blogger DaveR said...

EV

1) Yes, in a very modified sense.

2) So between a mob of 100-200 men against four men in a jail with several sticks and one small pepper-box pistol between them, you take issue with the four men defending themselves. I guess Joseph should have refused to use that pistol, even after his brother got shot in the face.

And there was no insurrection. What you did have were local papers threatening extermination. Again.

3 June 2011 at 13:39  
Anonymous Dreadnaught said...

"All men may not be equal, but all religions certainly are. Islam is as great as Judaism and as noble as Christianity"

I accept the sarcasm intended Cranny, but I afraid I totally have to agree with you - when superstition prevails, reason fails.

Beam me up Mr.Scott.

3 June 2011 at 13:47  
Anonymous Commander Snotty said...

Capt'n Dreadnought I canny get it to work!

3 June 2011 at 13:49  
Anonymous Zog, King of Kolob said...

You may well *sigh*, Mr Cranny. You started it, matey.

3 June 2011 at 13:53  
Anonymous Zog, King of Kolob said...

That's right, Qog, my son. Not like that pasty-faced wastrel, your unworthy brother, Bog.

3 June 2011 at 13:57  
Anonymous Qog, song of Zog, brother of Bog said...

His Imperial Majesty, Mater of the 7 Legions of Snark, Admiral of the 9th Fleet (the dog's kolobs) insults the high honour of Kolobs! A gunboat shall be dispatched to your homeland and it shall be smited!

3 June 2011 at 14:00  
Blogger DaveR said...

I'm also thinking I should mention that it is Article VI, not Article IV, of the US constitution that forbids a religious test for office. I'd think it a typo, but it is repeated.

3 June 2011 at 14:00  
Anonymous Colonel JackO' Neill said...

@ I am Stan, well Stargate SG1 is more plausible than the book of mormon. Give me a Gaoul'd to fight any day...

3 June 2011 at 14:02  
Anonymous Judy K. Warner said...

I don't think Mitt Romney's Mormonism will be his worst problem. Mormons are very good on the issues that concern Evangelicals. They led the way in putting Proposition 8 on the ballot in California, which outlawed same-sex marriage, and they have been vilified for it very publicly. They lead exemplary family lives, with lower divorce and illegitimacy rates than possibly any other group.

No, Mitt's problems are two: (1) his inconsistency on the issues over time, for one thing becoming pro-life when it was politically opportune. And (2) his health care plan in Massachusetts is a big-government, expensive failure, too close to ObamaCare in some of its elements not to be a huge drag on his candidacy.

I may be wrong, and his Mormonism may be his downfall, but I doubt it.

3 June 2011 at 14:04  
Anonymous Jean-Luc Picard said...

Phasers on stun Mr Riker; there is a lot of nutters on this side today (English Viking, Graham Davies, then the Last Dodo will turn up).

3 June 2011 at 14:05  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

DaveR wrote:

If one is in need of primary sources as to what Mormons believe, the 'Standard Works' (namely the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price.

The Pearl of Great Price is more traditionally known as the "Book of the Dead." The manuscript from which Joseph Smith derived the PGP was discovered in in the 1960's complete with Smith's notations in Smith's own handwriting. It was presented for translation with great fanfare ... here would be the great vindication of Joseph Smith as a prophet ... but alas the translators discovered only the magical rituals of the cult of Osiris. The PGP remains the definitive and irrefutable proof that Smith was a false prophet, for he failed (miserably) the test of a prophet established in Scripture. And let us not make any claims about 'spiritual translations,' shall we? Smith claimed to have written an Egyptian grammar as a result of his translating activities.

As for the prophesies of Smith found in Doctrine and Covenant, you should all read D&C 132 where Emma Smith is commanded to receive Joseph Smith's new wife (young) into her household. Imagine yourself as a middle-aged woman and your husband says "Hey, I got this revelation today ... about marriage." It's good to be the Prophet.

carl

who has been perma-banned by the Mormon missionaries. No, really. They won't ever come to my house again. I have seen them walk by and not stop. Evidently, my entry in the Mormon data base has a big red 'X' though it.

3 June 2011 at 14:09  
Anonymous IanCad said...

As in most countries with electoral privileges, Americans vote with their pocket books. If the Tooth Fairy were to run it would likely win.
Apart from their fecundity, Mormons are recognized as clean cut, reliable, and hardworking citizens. They are grossly overrepresented in Congress.
Religion will not be much of an issue. As with their constitution it is much talked about but little understood.

3 June 2011 at 14:12  
Anonymous Xog Earthling outreach co-ordinator said...

Mitt has an excellent chance of becoming President, I shall fold space,land in Washington through a worm hole and run his campaign personally.

3 June 2011 at 14:15  
Anonymous Arvek the elder said...

"You may well *sigh*, Mr Cranny. You started it, matey."

No he didn't. YOU started it, when you invaded Vek during the fest of the legover. Bastards.

3 June 2011 at 14:24  
Anonymous The Patriot said...

Your Grace, I suspect that as a very rich chap this Mitt Romney will have as good a chance of anyone who has lots of cash to pay for adds. How far Romney gets, depends on who else in the GOP comes into the fray and whether or not Obama will get any real competition for the democrat nomination.

3 June 2011 at 14:28  
Anonymous For mash get smash aliens said...

Clack,clack,clack,

3 June 2011 at 14:28  
Blogger DaveR said...

@Carl Jacobs.

1) You're talking about the Book of Abraham, which is only a part of the Pearl of Great Price. The rest is not linked to Egyptian documents at all. It's a bit of a problem if you're misinformed as to what the PofGP is.

2) The recovered manuscripts, while matching the facisimilies, do not appear to have all the material or match the descriptions given of translated manuscript. I'll note that neither contain the handwriting of Joseph smith.

3) Because you're getting confused with the "Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar". However, these aren't in the handwriting of Joseph Smith either. In fact, it's not entirely clear what these papers from Kirtland have to do with the Book of Abraham itself.

More responses on the topic available here: http://www.fairwiki.org/Book_of_Abraham/Joseph_Smith_Papyri

3 June 2011 at 14:39  
Anonymous Twog, Private Secretary to Zog, King of Kolob said...

Mr Arvek the elder, our action on Vek was for their liberation from the Kleggerons (http://www.cleggeron.com/). It was carried out entirely at the request of the Arthropods' Front for the Liberation of Vek, the only organisation that genuinely represents the inhabitants of that unhappy system. My agents tell me, Mr Arvek, that you speak for the bogus popular front for the restoration of the King of Vek -- a shill for the external imperialist running dogs of Libidimus Minor.

3 June 2011 at 14:39  
Blogger DaveR said...

I certainly agree with those above that comment that Mitt Romney has other political problems that may overshadow the religion issue

3 June 2011 at 14:41  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

There is a Mormon prophecy called the ‘White Horse Prophecy’ or the prophecy of the “One mighty and strong.” Now, this is not public, formal Mormon doctrine, but it was taught by many leaders of the Church and is still taught today. It is said by Mormon leadership that when the Constitution is in dire peril, one will come who is mighty and strong. He will come riding (figuratively perhaps) on a white horse and will wield awesome political and spiritual power.

This mysterious priesthood elder would somehow seize control of the US government to prevent the total abrogation of the Constitution. He would assume total power and create a Mormon “Kingdom” in America. At that time, this “one mighty and strong” would be proclaimed the new “Prophet “ (First President) of the Mormon church and would also be president of the United States. Thus, he would wield both supreme political power of the most powerful nation on earth and also be the “Prophet, Seer and Revelator” of the Mormon Church.

3 June 2011 at 14:41  
Anonymous tb said...

>Mormonism? Well, why not?

because it's bollocks?

3 June 2011 at 14:49  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Your Grace, given that the American voters put, for the first time, a non-white into the white house (and one who many believe is a secret Muslim), then electing a Mormon wouldn't be that difficult a leap for the American electorate.

Given that American politics is becoming more "Europeanised" in the sense that there are two parties which are more or less poles apart ideologically and on the great issues of the day, rather than being regional-religious-ethnic coalitions (e.g. in the days when the conservative south used to vote democrat come what may) then Romney can easily fit into the Republican stable, given the Mormon social values etc, although a Romney ticket would envoke the fury of core democrats and rally some of their key constituencies (gay vote, black vote, social liberals etc).

3 June 2011 at 14:52  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

John Tyndale said...

As usual Graham Davies exhibits his usual lack of respect towards the faithful- which is why his utopian "secular state" would take us back to the days of 1930s Russia.

Why should a religious belief deserve respect any more than political belief for example? Do you think Communism or National Socialism are deserving of respect?

3 June 2011 at 14:54  
Blogger DaveR said...

@D. Singh - this would be the 'White Horse prophecy' that only appeared in 1900, and has been explicitly disavowed by the Church since then, including by Joseph F. Smith back in 1918, and more recently last year here: http://newsroom.lds.org/blog/church-statement-on-white-horse-prophecy-and-political-neutrality - meanwhile the 'One mighty & strong' is something separate, in D&C 85, and doesn't mention the constitution or political power at all.

Take a step back and look at this thread. This thread has a number of individuals repeating whatever misinformation they've vaguely heard about the Latter-day Saints, and now we're at the stage where we are accused of having a secret plan to take over the world. At this point, how is this thread much different from the Secret Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

3 June 2011 at 14:58  
Anonymous len said...

Joseph Smith liked the Bible so much he decided to write one Himself.

Jesus warns us of these 'false prophets'and there seems to have been a plethora of them , all with their own special tweaks, and changes, traditions, and additions to the Truth of the Gospel.


Less(as the saying goes, especially with Scripture) is more.

3 June 2011 at 14:59  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

OK, so where exactly is Kolob in relation to earth?

3 June 2011 at 15:03  
Blogger English Viking said...

Joseph Smith was a modern day Mo; claim a new (and final) revelation from the God of an existing religion, be the only person able to hear His new edicts (ususally stuff like the prophet is allowed to sleep with loads of women) and start an armed insurrection and attempt to overthrow the legally appointed Government by force.

Fortunately, someone had the good sense shoot this moron, and his drongo brother, before they were able to gain much ground.

Sci-fi, man-made clap-trap like this should not be pandered to, nor given the respectability of being called a Christian denomination. It should be ridiculed for the fairy story it is, and its followers should have a large dose of reality and scorn poured on them at regular intervals. Failure to do so will, in 1400 years or so, leave us in the same boat as we find ourselves in with the other nonsense known as islam.

3 June 2011 at 15:11  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Is it me or are there 2 threads here? One discussing the post itself and subsequent issues and the other between various ET's about interstellar war?

3 June 2011 at 15:12  
Blogger English Viking said...

LL,

When Smith was dreaming all this crap up, space travel was impossible. Be nice if he was specific and it was within spitting distance.

I'll wager that it is located some distance away from the furthest reaches of our space probes.

3 June 2011 at 15:13  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Romney is out of touch with the tenor of the times. He's not the solution, he's the problem: a squishy liberal Republican whose politically correct policies contributed to the election of a Communist to the White House.

I wouldn't worry too much about Romney. Sarah Palin--or someone else who loves the country and possesses a backbone--is going to be the next President.

3 June 2011 at 15:16  
Anonymous His Imperial Majesty, Master of the 7 Legions of Snark, Admiral of the 9th Fleet (the dog's kolobs) said...

Earthling Lavendon,

Quaxx dex thargo, you insolent riftkrule!

3 June 2011 at 15:16  
Blogger DaveR said...

@English Viking

One wonders if you are putting your fingers in your ears. There was no attempt to overthrow the government. Of course, that'd leave you with little to justify your support for mob violence.

And *final* revelation? There's no such thing in Mormonism (see 9th Article of Faith...)

3 June 2011 at 15:19  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

I have to say that it all seems to be a bit fanciful for my tastes:

1. The golden plates which the Book of Mormon came from, went back to heaven, written in a language no-one knew, but could be translated into shakespearian english, by one person (?).

2. That the native americans are really descendants of Jews, who fled Israel just before the Bablyonian Captivity (?).

3.This bit about Kolob and humans being able to become gods as well- that Jesus is for some reason a "chief" god (sounds like zeus or ra) doesn't seem to fit in with mainstream Christianity, be it Anglican,Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic.

3 June 2011 at 15:22  
Anonymous Siridar Baron Vladimir Harkonnen said...

Twog you coward, even as you speak my Sardaukar warriors are invading your planet and destroying your armies, the spice is ours!

3 June 2011 at 15:24  
Blogger English Viking said...

Siridar,

Ha! As you skirt the periphery of the Empire, bullying pathetic and insignificant life-forms with your backward ion-impulse 'technology', I and my legions are de-flowering the maidens of your nasty little asteroid, which you have left undefended!

What kind of Galactic Trooper are you?

3 June 2011 at 15:30  
Anonymous Lagomorphaian said...

"Mitt has an excellent chance of becoming President, I shall fold space,land in Washington through a worm hole and run his campaign personally."

Actually old cock, you can't open a wormhole inside a planet, because the energy of space-time would disort reality and fry the earth, or the bit below the wormhole hovering over (i.e. Washington DC). There is only one race which has the capability to open a wormhole inside a planet safely, and you arn't it matey.

3 June 2011 at 15:33  
Anonymous Holy Chelonian Empire said...

Twog, beware for the Avek have just signed a treaty with us Chelonians- you will qiver inside your shells (if you had any) as the might Chelonian Empire crushes your world!

3 June 2011 at 15:39  
Anonymous Splog, Under-Secretary to Twog, Private Secretary to Zog, King of Kolob said...

Mr Lagomorphaian, in the matter of wormholes, see:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100090498/a-word-from-the-governments-chief-scientific-hysteria-promoter/

The arrogant spokesentity for the Holy Chelonian Empire warns my master, Twog, that we shall quiver inside our shells consequent on the Chelonian alliance with the Avek. We shall see, impertinent mollusc. We shall see...

My master requires me to tell you that he disdains to reply in person to your empty mega-groof-rattling. In future, instruct all three of your mouths to address their equals.

3 June 2011 at 15:52  
Anonymous Dr Who and Dr What`s brother Dr When said...

Xog, may I suggest after folding space from Kolog you use the space shuttle to complete your journey.

3 June 2011 at 15:52  
Anonymous Dr Who, Dr What and Dr When`s brother Dr Why said...

Does Kolob have a sister planet called Kellogg, if not it should.

3 June 2011 at 16:05  
Anonymous Book of ET said...

Chelonians are basically Turtles and Totoises?So that's what ET's look like.

3 June 2011 at 16:16  
Anonymous Len's former lodger said...

Your Grace, looks like this thread has been taken over by a bunch of loons. But it is quite amusing for a friday evening.

3 June 2011 at 16:31  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

What bacame of the Deists argument of the founding fathers.

3 June 2011 at 16:38  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Dave R,

His Grace thanks for your Constitution correction: he has amended. But it is not clear to him at all where he has either misunderstood or misrepresented your beliefs.

3 June 2011 at 16:42  
Anonymous King Uranus III said...

His Imperial Majesty, Master of the 7 Legions of Snark, Admiral of the 9th Fleet (the dog's kolobs) said...

"Earthling Lavendon,

Quaxx dex thargo, you insolent riftkrule!"

You assume Lavendon is an Earthling??

3 June 2011 at 16:43  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hmmm, neither Danjo or Dodo have posted today; for that matter neither has blofeld and tiddles. Where are these intellectual heavyweights when you need them?

3 June 2011 at 16:46  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

Well, well, another religion getting a hammering on here today.

Admist all the very funny messages from beyond the earth, some have struggled to make serious points and given up.

I'll wait until the debate becomes a bit more serious before throwing in my comments about the inevitability of religious and cultural relativism as a consequence of the internal logic of the protestant reformation.

For now I'll waddle off and attend to nest building and making babies with the long lost Mrs Dodo.

3 June 2011 at 16:51  
Blogger English Viking said...

King Uranus III

Hail His Regal Eminence!

A good point. Surely this Lavendon creature is not a Thraxian spy?

Guards! Seize him!

3 June 2011 at 16:51  
Anonymous Klag, Kilngon Warrior said...

Dodo, of course the real reason why you won't debate us is because we crushed your insignificant little planet and enslaved its cowardly population! Pacifist Qou'ath!

3 June 2011 at 16:58  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

Just for you, because you asked so nicely.

Catholicism is crap.

PS Glad you realise that Cat-lickism is a different religion to Christianity. You're slowly getting it.

PPS Go to the match?

3 June 2011 at 16:58  
Anonymous His Imperial Majesty, Master of the 7 Legions of Snark, Admiral of the 9th Fleet (the dog's kolobs) said...

Klag, Kilngon Warrior,

You do realise that, under the terms of Korellian Convention, you are expected to rape all prisoners, as sign of your seniority?

Poor little Dodo. You're Klag's bitch now.

3 June 2011 at 17:02  
Anonymous Klag, Klingon Warrior said...

A warning to His Imperial Majesty, Master of the 7 Legions of Snark, Admiral of the 9th Fleet (the dog's kolobs)- Are you mad? Have you not heard of the stories about that man? God help you if you make him angry..

3 June 2011 at 17:02  
Anonymous Klag, Klingon Warrior said...

We decided to sell the Dodo planet, as part of our deficit reduction strategy and of course mating with a Dodo is the last thing a Klingon warrior would do!

3 June 2011 at 17:04  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

So I'm now an Alien? Great.

Whatever gives you that idea?

3 June 2011 at 17:07  
Anonymous Mr Dodo`s double yolked egg said...

My shell is very thin, eat more grits.

3 June 2011 at 17:10  
Blogger DaveR said...

Cranmer said

"But it is not clear to him at all where he has either misunderstood or misrepresented your beliefs."

Taking the items from your original post (and bearing in mind what constitutes official doctrine as noted here http://newsroom.lds.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine ):

1) "If believers are good and faithful, each will be given a planet of their own to rule." - Not doctrine, & a caricature of what Mormons believe.

2) "The Mormon god lives in heaven in a polygamous relationship with multiple wives, and sexually reproduces." - Not doctrine. The Church has no revealed position on how spirit children are born, nor on number of spouses.

3) "In common with Eastern religions, there is a variation on reincarnation as Mormons believe in the pre-existence of all people in heaven before they were born on earth." The doctrine of preexistence is not reincarnation. For that matter, it is not unique to Mormonism.

4) "the Mormon Jesus was conceived and born in heaven first as a ‘spirit child’ by God the Father in union with one of his wives." - Following on from above, not doctrine.

5) "Jesus was the first-born spirit child, and Lucifer was his second." The first is true, the latter isn't - I'm not sure where you're dragging this from.

6) "The orthodox Christian teaching is that God became man and was born of a virgin. For Mormons, the heavenly man-god came to earth and had sexual relations with Mary, and Jesus was the result." - False, as I pointed out above. LDS scripture affirms the virgin birth.

7) "Mormons do not believe in the eternal deity of Jesus: he became a god only after living a virtuous life on earth." - False, as pointed out above. He created this world, was the God of the Old Testament, and constitutes a member of the Godhead with the Father & the Holy Ghost. This is different from mainstream Christian belief, yes, but your statement is not correct.

8) "He then appeared before the council of gods that meet near a star called Kolob, who declared him to be a god in the pantheon of gods." - Following on from above, false.

9) "It is a religion of salvation by works, which even the Son of God has to earn." False, as pointed out above. Works are essential, but without grace and the Atonement of Christ, futile. This is obviously different from the Protestant position, but Mormons do not believe we are saved by our works.

10) From your picture "God lives on a planet near a star named 'Kolob'" - I quoted the relevant verse above 'which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God' (Abraham 3:9). Notice throne rather than planet. Can you not see the first description is as misrepresentative as describing the eucharist as ritual cannibalism? Likewise, while some LDS have interpreted the time issue in relation to creation, the Church has no official position on the length of creation. Furthermore, putting "Urim & Thummim" in quotation marks as if something entirely foreign, rather than a term that exists in the Bible, could be construed as misleading. 'Kolob', in any case, is peripheral to LDS theology, hence its mention in only one chapter.

Those should be sufficient to suggest a serious misreading of Mormonism and its texts. Certainly there are large differences between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and mainstream Christianity. Our conceptions of the Godhead are different - we reject the trinity, and certain do not conceive of a sharp division between created and uncreated, for example. We certainly reject both sola scriptura and sola fide. But the assertions listed above assert things as LDS doctrine where they are not, or in a misleading form.

3 June 2011 at 17:19  
Blogger Mrs Dodo said...

That Norse Troll is SO ignorant.

He reminds me of a young, fledgling who wants to join the grown ups and is desperate for their attention and approval.

Why doesn't he stay in his cave?

3 June 2011 at 17:24  
Blogger I am Stan said...

Dodo said

"I'll wait until the debate becomes a bit more serious before throwing in my comments about the inevitability of religious and cultural relativism as a consequence of the internal logic of the protestant reformation."

Ohhhh I`m on the edge of my seat do tell do tell!

3 June 2011 at 17:29  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dave R,

If the maniac/liar Smith wasn't trying to lead an insurrection, why was he in prison for it and why did he have an armed militia?

Nice to see that LDS believe there is no final revelation. Leaves wiggle room for all those crack-pot prophesies that don't come true, doesn't it?

PS The Eucharist WOULD be ritual cannibalism, if transubstantiation were not a lie.

You're a wacko, who holds no more credibility than a Jedi.

Live long and prosper.

3 June 2011 at 17:29  
Anonymous Klag,Klingon Warrior said...

Dodo said

"I'll wait until the debate becomes a bit more serious before throwing in my comments about the inevitability of religious and cultural relativism as a consequence of the internal logic of the protestant reformation."

Now you can see why the Klingon empire ended up selling the Dodo planet to some-one who could put up with this mindless drivel!

3 June 2011 at 17:33  
Anonymous His Imperial Majesty, Master of the 7 Legions of Snark, Admiral of the 9th Fleet (the dog's kolobs) said...

Of course Lavendon is an Earthling- and he will kneel before the great dog's Kolobs for his insolence and refusing to appreciate my imperial majesty.

3 June 2011 at 17:35  
Blogger English Viking said...

Mrs Dodo,

Your old man was expecting a night of passion, so he was telling us.

How come it only took a couple of minutes?

Two shoves and a grunt? Typical Dodo.

3 June 2011 at 17:35  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

The very first comment by the learned voyager sums it all up really.

Commanding Chieftans of the USplc are all owned.

The post of President should be renamed Squaw.

3 June 2011 at 17:37  
Anonymous His Imperial Majesty, Master of the 7 Legions of Snark, Admiral of the 9th Fleet (the dog's kolobs) said...

There is an impostor at 17:35.

A shape-shifter from Borelinian Belt, no doubt.

Arrest him!

Not me, you fool, Him! Get your hands off me - it's HIM! HIM, NOT ME! Get awww aghhhhh, you little ahhhhh!

3 June 2011 at 17:40  
Anonymous Dodo's aunt said...

English Viking- Is there anything which you actually like; you can't stand Gays,Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, Socialists, is there any one else whomn you'd like to have a go at?

3 June 2011 at 17:41  
Blogger DaveR said...

The city of Nauvoo had a militia, as was permitted under its city charter. Considering such early episodes as the expulsion from Jackson county, and Missouri's extermination order, they were understandably keen on having the ability to defend themselves.

As for Joseph Smith, because they accused him of it, and he surrendered himself. By your logic, Jesus was likewise obviously an insurrectionist. Of course, in the case we're discussing, they never got to a trial because a mob murdered him.

And in this thread, you've condemned the LDS for believing in a final revelation, and when proven wrong for not believing in a final revelation. Like your claim of a 'wild-west' shoot-out, and when proven wrong deciding to fully back murderous mob violence. A tad inconsistent?

3 June 2011 at 17:43  
Blogger DaveR said...

The above was directed at English Viking, who I concur just looks like he's trying to hate everybody.

3 June 2011 at 17:44  
Anonymous Rick Bilbrough said...

Another intelligent post, your grace. I think that in today's age faith should not be the key test to office- is Mitt Romney fit to be President of the greatest country in the world- based not on religion, but on his policies and his skills.

3 June 2011 at 17:45  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Well, I expect some Christians here are experiencing the same sort of bafflement of atheists like me over the apparent willingness of some people to buy in when presented with what appears to be very bizarre religious claims. Welcome to our world.

3 June 2011 at 17:46  
Anonymous Dean Malibu said...

I sometimes wonder if English Viking is really his grace posting in a way to get people to leave comments...surely no-one can be as extreme as him?

3 June 2011 at 17:48  
Anonymous Delphi Jones said...

Danjo- but should Ronmey be excluded from office because he is a Mormon. That is what the serious posters here are trying to ask- you will have to wade through all the funny stuff about aliens though.

3 June 2011 at 17:52  
Blogger Mrs Dodo said...

Norse Troll

It may be acceptable amongst savages to discuss intimate affairs but not in polite company.

As I understand an earlier comment you passed, your type have a rather shabby and cheap approach to matters of the heart - "deflowering (undefended) maidens". How gross!

Dodo is out finding material for our nest just now and I can assure you he will sleep very well tonight.

Now go and chew on a rock.

3 June 2011 at 17:53  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Plural marriages - ANY religion that thinks it is a good idea to have MORE than one Mother-In-Law MUST by ANY definition be an evil cult! :o)

NB: Polygamy is still practised by tens of thousands of Mormans; just in case someone wishes to argue the toss.

3 June 2011 at 17:54  
Blogger DaveR said...

True, but they're not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it being an excommunicable offense. They're schismatic groups, many of whom have never been members, and whose numbers are rather small in comparison (tens of thousands compared to millions).

3 June 2011 at 17:57  
Anonymous not a machine said...

mmm I think I want to see who else could be in the running and I think we are a few months away from that.Interesting start though by Mitt Romney, I thank DaveR for explaining things a little , and your grace has aired what problems may lie ahead .
It is pretty clear Obama has not left himself a good position even though his fund raising is substantial.Sarah Palin seems to have got a better understanding of herself and reduced the prom queen narrow which was so easy to send up at last time.
So far though it doesnt seem as though the republicans have thought about how the deficet will affect any 4yr term , there is clearly the new techniques of campaigning which they seem to understand , but like the conservatives in the UK ,had some trouble in arriving at the campaign that met with the new realities , which given the USAs more stark form of capitalism , requires someone who understands and can make it work to pay down the debts and rebalance it with functioning institutions.
if ,like in the UK the Americans are staring at a large debt producing machine , then both partys will be taxing/cutting which perhaps may give the democrats the same muddled long deficet pay off term,ideas that Labour used over here , to try and spin the new eternal socialism as a post meltdown solution.
if either party makes the wrong ecnomic promises (and my guess is they will be hitting that close to election day) then it could be a very unusual slightly vaccous campaign.
So far it just looks like the republicans havent quite formed that head of ideas that enable the people of the USA to trust ,that they know whats wrong and how to fix it , and there word is bankable with the electorate . I dont useually associate USA people with cyniscm , but like what happend over in the UK , people may be looking upon the scene and concluding a professional elite who have lied and do not care much about anything other than lining thereown pockets and running up vanity debts .

We shall see .

3 June 2011 at 17:59  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Dodo's Aunt - English Viking practices the ancient art of 'not liking many people' - and, to be fair, who can blame him? Not I! Most people are not likeable; on the whole, they are a gross embuggerance and tend to get in the way of other, more deserving folk.

For myself, I'm an excessively tolerant sort of bloke, but I have to say that nine out of ten people do seem to be unnecessarily present, at any given moment.

It's jolly bad form, and they really should desist!

3 June 2011 at 18:13  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dean Malibu,

You sound a bit like a pooftah to me.

3 June 2011 at 18:15  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Dave R ... a ''schismatic group'' that follow the teachings of the founder of the Mormon religion, Josepth Smith. It seems to me that as they are 'true' to their founder, they cannot possibly be regarded as 'schismatic'.

3 June 2011 at 18:21  
Blogger DaveR said...

How many different branches of Christianity are there? Don't they all claim to follow the teachings of Christ?

Then there's the question of authority.

3 June 2011 at 18:26  
Anonymous Dean Malibu said...

English Viking- you seem like a prat to me.

3 June 2011 at 18:27  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo's aunt,

I like Israel, the IDF, Yisrael Galil, The Bible, Spurgeon, Studd, Wesley, CHM, Lang, Orwell, Asimov, Robert Ludlum, David Niven, Tchaicovsky (by FAR the finest composer the world has ever seen), Beethoven (by FAR the second best composer the world has ever seen), Rachmaninov (by FAR the best composer of piano concertos the world has ever seen, apart from Peter's efforts, of course), pizza, beer, single malt, triple distilled vodka, Katherine Hepburn, Enoch Powell, Edward I, Richard III, and arguing with nob-ends like you on His Grace's blog.
Cricket features quite highly, and boating.

Most of all (apart from Christ) I like cats.

PS Mimi told me to tell you she doesn't take kindly to your sort, and you would do well to keep away from her and her daughter, the equally beautiful Petal, unless you fancy an horrific death that involves lots of claws, fangs and whiskers, that is.

Don't say I didn't warn you.

3 June 2011 at 18:31  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dean Malibu,

You're entitled to your opinion.

Even though you've got a gay name.

Do you like gladiator movies?

3 June 2011 at 18:33  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Delphi Jones: "Danjo- but should Ronmey be excluded from office because he is a Mormon. That is what the serious posters here are trying to ask- you will have to wade through all the funny stuff about aliens though."

Technically, no. But in a democracy the people decide and if the people decide they don't want a Mormon or an atheist or whatever then so be it.

3 June 2011 at 18:34  
Anonymous MrJ said...

"Mormonism? Well, why not?"

What are the main issues in American politics?

In bringing to our notice the prospect of Mr Romney for POTUS and mentioning the tenets of the Latter Day Saints, Blogmaster Cranmer has drawn attention to the issues which are coming into play in the politics of the United States. (To the extent that his account of the tenets may be inexact, the comments and citations from DaveR may suffice as a corrective.)

If it cannot be credibly denied that adherents of those tenets on the whole lead at least as goodly, sober and generous lives as other persons whose lives and conduct are guided in the name of the Christ of canonical Scripture (but who are adherents of trinitarian or other teachings, creeds, or convictions which are wholly or partly incompatible with that of the Mormons), the main question is:

whether Mr Romney's prospects of nomination and later election under the Constitution and party politics of the people and Congress of the USA will be affected for better or worse by his adherence to the tenets associated with Mormonism?

One of the considerations that is likely to affect the selectors and the electorate is the expectation that the candidate will be firm and effective in resisting what is reckoned to be the threat of Islamism to the American way of life, and whether that is regarded as an issue which will attract more votes, as a central and main issue or as a side issue.

Another consideration is whether that issue will be used by opponents (of any candidate of any party) to obscure the political issues connected with the recovery and reform of the banking system, social security and welfare, and all activities, agencies and policies under the actual or titular sway of the President.

3 June 2011 at 19:00  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr DaveR,

His Grace sincerely apologises if he has in any way misrepresented your faith: he does occasionally exaggerate and resort to hyperbole, because he just does. You must, however, concede that where a religion is agnostic on a doctrine, it is vulnerable to logical speculation. Since your conception of deity is one of flesh and blood, it stands to anthropomorphic reason that reproduction is sexual. And the pre-existence of billions of spirits is indeed akin to the Hindu notion of 'atman': not strictly reincarnation, but certainly strictly incarnation: essentially, all spirits were with God in the beginning; not just Jesus.

His Grace appreciates your corrections, which stand as a rebuke. Such dialogue is the essential raison d'etre of His Grace's blog, and he is thankful for your contributions.

3 June 2011 at 19:36  
Anonymous Oswin said...

English Viking - you just had to go ruin it - CATS ffs!

3 June 2011 at 20:05  
Anonymous Kelso North Carolina said...

Your Grace:

The first time I read about God the Father living on Kolob I said to myself: "Imagine, you have the whole of space to choose from...and you settle in the Kolob district. Must be a really good neighborhood!"

My second thought was: "Surely he looks like Toscanini."

3 June 2011 at 20:07  
Blogger DaveR said...

Dear Cranmer,

Thank you for your comments. Certainly I agree that speculation can arise where doctrine is not specified. However, it should also be noted that such speculations, especially when they are those from outside the faith, do not constitute 'official doctrine' or 'what Mormons believe', especially in cases where LDS scriptures say otherwise, such as the virgin birth (or if one were being picky, deity as 'flesh & blood', in LDS doctrine strictly a mortal condition).

Thank you again, however, for your willingness to listen. I believe this advances understanding, and would, for example, regard your statement that 'essentially, all spirits were with God in the beginning; not just Jesus' as a fair representation of the Mormon position on prexistence.

3 June 2011 at 20:10  
Anonymous Holy Chelonian Empire said...

You will have noticed that Splog, Under-Secretary to Twog, Private Secretary to Zog, King of Kolob, has not posted for many hours. This is because the glorious Chelonian army- in conjunction with her new allies of Avek is currently routing the Kolob's at Calveth 9, ha, ha ,ha!

3 June 2011 at 20:26  
Anonymous A shape-shifter from Borelinian Belt said...

Actually I'm Dean Malibu, what a cool disguise eh?

3 June 2011 at 20:28  
Anonymous Kelso North Carolina said...

Your Grace:

The Mormons and Dr Twain (Oxon):

For pure amusement at fine writing may I suggest you and your canons visit this site:

http://www.salamandersociety.com/marktwain/

which contains the remarks Dr Mark Twain (Oxon) wrote concerning the Mormons.

This excerpt is from "Roughing It" and it's a genuine wry, witty, and delightful read.

Here's one short sample to whet the appetite:

"Some people have to have a world of evidence before they can come anywhere in the neighborhood of believing anything, but for me when a man tells me that he has seen the engravings which are upon the plates and not only that, but an angel was there at the time and saw them see him and probably took his receipt for it, I am very far on the road to conviction no matter whether I have ever heard of that man before or not, and even if I do not know the name of the angel or his nationality either."

3 June 2011 at 20:34  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ahh, there are 2 Dodos on the site- can things get any worse?

3 June 2011 at 20:43  
Blogger English Viking said...

Oswin,

Surely all good men like small pussy-cats?

11 at the mo, but the more, the merrier.

PS, One would do well to study their committed, determined, indisputable, indefatigable, non-compromising, violently affirmed belief that this bit is mine, and that bit is yours, and you best keep your ass out of my bit.

Even in the face of overwhelming odds, I have seen a determined fighter rout the masses.

We have a lot to learn from our furry friends.

3 June 2011 at 20:50  
Blogger English Viking said...

Oswin,

Really,

There are only two kinds of cat; the castrated kind, which seek to appease...

And those with the full cajones, which say:

"I may die here, today, in this fight, but you will never beat me; for every one of me you strike down, two more will rise up.'


For further information, see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAX-heCjkjw

3 June 2011 at 21:22  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Getting back to Cranmers original title

"Can a Moron take the Whitehouse?"

Answers please!

3 June 2011 at 22:05  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

Anonymous said...
"Ahh, there are 2 Dodos on the site- can things get any worse?"

Yes, isn't it wonerful? My long lost partner and I have been reunited.

Hopefull there will be a brood of little Dodo's before too long. However, I doubt I will allow them internet access until they are older. I would not want their young minds influenced by the likes of Viki the Norse.

Having mentioned the Norse ... I see he uses immature kittens as role models for how humans should behave. An interesting insight into the undeveloped mind of a savage. He's got to be a teenager, hasn't he?

3 June 2011 at 22:10  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

Even if I was, I'd still show you a thing or two.

You are appearing obsessive.

In a literary sense, or a literal sense, I will make you squeal like the little bitch that you are.

3 June 2011 at 22:30  
Blogger Mrs Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

3 June 2011 at 23:04  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

Norseman Viki

Oooooo you're sooo brave and manly sitting in a foreign land sending threats over the internet. My feathers are all a quiver.

You clearly place testosterone and violence above intelligence and reason.

I see you like the romanticist Tchaikovsky. You do know he was homosexual, don't you? The theme for Romeo and Juliet was inspired by his 'interest' in another man. Not that it matters, hey enjoy.

Kittens, Tchaikovsky ... do you wear pink socks too, old chap?

3 June 2011 at 23:08  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

3 June 2011 at 23:23  
Blogger Mrs Dodo said...

Time to settle down for the night Dodo in that nest you've been building all day.

You can, if you really must, continue all this silly nonsense with the Norse savage another time.

3 June 2011 at 23:25  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Your Grace, not being an American your communicant frequently struggles to understand the evolution of US society from a relatively homogenous state to its current plurality.

An unintended consequence of the Obama experiment seems to have been a polarisation of the US into racially determined political parties. Obama was principally elected by white Gen x & Ys who were suffused by a righteous glow through voting for a black president. By all reports this cohort is now thoroughly disillusioned and won't repeat their mistake. In the meantime US blacks are now 95% in favour of Obama so have swung towards the Democrats. It seems the other big Democrat constituency are the Catholic Hispanics.

The Tea-Party presents to this communicant as a white pensioners party and their spiritual home is the GOP when push comes to shove. So if the Gen X and Y whites and the Tea Party whites vote Republican it leaves them facing off against the leftist whites, the blacks and Hispanics of the Democrat party. This situation is quite dangerous for the USA. It certainly impossible to imagine Romney winning the Catholic vote either black or Hispanic. There will be many white Catholics as well as other trinitarians who will be as confused as many of your communicants by Mormonism.

Where is Old South? And non mouse is very knowledgeable about the USA.

Perhaps it will take a fatuous comment from a Scientologist like Tom Cruise, claiming brotherhood with the Mormons, to crystallise opinion.

Mr Carl Jacobs, my trick with the Mormons has always been to ask for their addresses so I can deliver a homily on their doorstep. They don't like the idea.

3 June 2011 at 23:33  
Anonymous MrJ said...

PS to 19:00:

1) After commenting above, I have noticed that Ann Barnhardt has some interesting remarks about the integrity of Mr Romney, posted June 2, 4:35 PM MST (about his time as Governor of Massachusetts) and June 3, 9:28 AM MST (about Islam and jihadism).

2) "...statement that 'essentially, all spirits were with God in the beginning; not just Jesus' as a fair representation of the Mormon position on prexistence." [DaveR to Cranmer 20:10]. It may be acknowledged that this is not necessarily contrary to the canonical Scripture, although discouraged by the early church fathers and later mostly opposed by theologians who may be no less unclear about bringing more than doctrinal or creedal understanding to questions about immortality of the soul.

3) Kelso North Carolina 20:34 has helpfully mentioned Mark Twain's account, written after passing through Salt Lake City, which includes: "The Mormon Bible is rather stupid and tiresome to read. But there is nothing vicious in its teachings. Its code of morals is unobjectionable. It's smooched from the New Testament and no credit given." It may be, for some, an open question whether to take Mark Twain with a pinch of salt or the Mormon Bible of which he writes; or, for that matter, Willard Mitt Romney for President.

4 June 2011 at 00:02  
Anonymous Oswin said...

English Viking - I'm a ferret man myself; and they never shit in my salad patch!

4 June 2011 at 02:15  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ed Miliband is a secular Jew. Should this stop him becoming Prime Minister or should it be his policies?

4 June 2011 at 02:24  
Anonymous anon 2 said...

His european communist heritage should stop him from being in British politics. End of story.

He is our enemy; and will never be recognized as the master of anyone who truly loves Britain.

4 June 2011 at 05:31  
Blogger Kip Hop... It don't stop said...

Your Grace,

you wrote that

the Mormon Jesus was conceived and born in heaven first as a ‘spirit child’ by God the Father in union with one of his wives. Jesus was the first-born spirit child, and Lucifer was his second. Thus Jesus and Lucifer are brothers...

For Mormons, the heavenly man-god came to earth and had sexual relations with Mary, and Jesus was the result.

Do you have a good source for these claims? I've been discussion with a repented Mormon in the parish and would like to point them to read more on this as they claim that Christianity and Mormonism is essentially the same.

Rev GK Chelashaw

4 June 2011 at 08:02  
Anonymous len said...

The trolls have been loosed!.

It is perhaps an indicator of the popularity of His Grace`s august blog the amount of troll activity occurring.They seem to be drawn as one being pulled by a magnetic force.

Can a Mormon take the White House.?
Since(according to secular man as His Grace states) all religions are equal, all truth is relative,no one has the absolute truth.
Why not put a Muslim in the White House, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist?

As HG say why not?

4 June 2011 at 08:14  
Anonymous Voyager said...

Ed Miliband is a secular Jew

What is a "secular" "Jew" ?

4 June 2011 at 10:42  
Anonymous Rational Buddhism said...

Graham Davis said...

All men may not be equal, but all religions certainly are. Islam is as great as Judaism and as noble as Christianity, which are just as worthy of respect as Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, and any and every other spiritual ‘-ism’ which emanates from the mind of man. Mormonism? Well, why not?

The thinly disguised subtext of that remark is of course that Christianity is superior to the others. Fortunately we are not required to respect any religious belief as they are all as daft as each other.


Not completely true. Buddhism is rational

4 June 2011 at 11:02  
Blogger English Viking said...

Oswin,

Free manure! What are you complaining about?

4 June 2011 at 13:45  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

I know he was rumoured to be.

Just like you.

4 June 2011 at 13:45  
Blogger Mr Dodo said...

Viki

I understand you probably want to get in touch with your femine side from time to time.

Go along now, pop on 'Swan Lake' and do a few pirorettes in the privacy of your cave. I won't tell anyone - promise

4 June 2011 at 13:50  
Blogger Mrs Dodo said...

Hey Norseman

I can assure you my Dodo is not homosexual - all cock in this hen's experience.

4 June 2011 at 14:10  
Blogger English Viking said...

Mrs Dodo,

You appear correct, he is a complete prick.

4 June 2011 at 14:16  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Rational Buddhism (11:02): thank you for the exposition at the link to "Buddhism is rational". Here is a response. (You will be aware that some, possibly most, of those who are considered to be able or permitted or called to teach "Christianity", evangelically or dogmatically, will have convictions which are incompatible with the following remarks, or commitments which may inhibit open avowal.)

What is set out at "Buddhism is rational" is not incompatible (so far as it goes) with that understanding of reason and reasonable understanding which the canonical Scripture of the Christian Bible ("Old Testament" and "New Testament") offers for one searching with heart, soul and mind; save, perhaps, in respect of the question of being or essence or extinction.

Further, it may be necessary to distinguish what had been attainable before the Christian Era from what has been attainable after.

Admittedly, not all theologians or others who have accepted or commented on the Christian Gospel of the New Testament would agree; and to that extent at least the statement that "Christianity does not have the metaphysical foundation needed to withstand materialism" has some validity.

4 June 2011 at 14:17  
Blogger Mrs Dodo said...

Norseman

You are an ignorant savage with a sexual obession.

'Cock', for your information, is the masculine term for Dodo's and is not a reference to any particular part of anatonomy.

4 June 2011 at 14:36  
Blogger English Viking said...

Mrs Dodo,

I look up the word 'cock' in the dictionary, and it simply said 'The Last Dodo'.

Weird.

4 June 2011 at 15:43  
Blogger Mrs Dodo said...

Norseman

Dodo warned me not to talk with you.

Now, put that poor little kitten down IMMEDIATELY.

Yes, yes, I know, you're just checking its gender. Tell that to the RSPCA. It gives a whole new meaning to one of your favourite terms: katty-licks.

Urrrggg - Norseman is dirty, dirty, dirty.

4 June 2011 at 18:18  
Anonymous len said...

Too much flying round in circles sends one a bit disorientated,off course, and a bit crazy, I guess.

4 June 2011 at 21:16  
Blogger Mrs Dodo said...

Dear Mr len

Although we are related to doves and pigeons, don't you know that Dodo's are unable to fly?

We're still waiting on a genetic mutation that will facilitate this. Maybe one of our chicks will, we'll just have to wait and see.

4 June 2011 at 21:23  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo, Mrs Dodo (one and the same)

The Cats Protection League is the charity of choice.

The RSPCA are a bunch of cat-killing, Labour-loving muppets, and a fake charity to boot.

Why would a so-called animal charity kill the animals in its care?

Plain and simple... money.

Their hypocrisy is bettered only by the cat-licks, who claim to know the only way to Heaven, whilst dragging their followers to Hell.

4 June 2011 at 22:19  
Blogger Mrs Dodo said...

Urrgg ... whenever you use the expression 'cat-lick' I think of your poor little kittens!

Nasty, nasty Norseman.

Ps
Do you ever say anything nice about anyone?

5 June 2011 at 01:33  
Anonymous Splog, Under-Secretary to Twog, Private Secretary to Zog, King of Kolob said...

Mr Holy Chelonian Empire wrote:

'You will have noticed that Splog, Under-Secretary to Twog, Private Secretary to Zog, King of Kolob, has not posted for many hours. This is because the glorious Chelonian army- in conjunction with her new allies of Avek is currently routing the Kolob's [...sic...] at Calveth 9, ha, ha ,ha!'

No, it's not. It's because he had to go to South London for his grandson's 4th birthday party. He has now returned, and hostilities may recommence. By the way, HCE, you should not use an apostrophe before the S in plurals.

5 June 2011 at 15:15  
Anonymous HCE said...

"By the way, HCE, you should not use an apostrophe before the S in plurals."

Bah, what do I know of the foolish human tounge?

5 June 2011 at 18:29  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

Just why does "the ONE who was born in two places "have to raise a billion dollars to run for re-election,when rothschild has already decided who will be the next president?

5 June 2011 at 18:29  
Blogger English Viking said...

Mrs Dodo,


RE: Speaking kindly of others.

I think you'll find that I hold Enoch Powell, Beethoven, Tchaicovsky and Rachmaninov in the highest regard.

I'm quite partial to Jesus, too.

5 June 2011 at 19:38  
Blogger Chancellor More said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5 June 2011 at 20:11  
Blogger Mrs Dodo said...

Mr English Viking

All these people are dead - except Jesus.

Don't you like anyone who is still alive? And I don't mean kittens!

5 June 2011 at 20:14  
Blogger English Viking said...

Mrs Dodo,

How nice you recognise the continued existence of Christ.


Mr Wilders seems a reasonable kind of chap.

Mr Griffin is the kind of bloke I would take a beer with, also.

I'll get me coat.

5 June 2011 at 21:50  
Blogger Mrs Dodo said...

Mr English Viking

I don't know Mr Griffin but enjoy yourself.

You should try to go out more often. Try to be kinder to people too and you will have more friends

5 June 2011 at 22:34  

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