Saturday, July 09, 2011

Islamism and Nazism - two sides of the same coin



Hamas spokesman, Dr Ismail Radwan, declared on Palestinian Authority TV, 30th March 2007: "The Hour (Resurrection) will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the rock and the tree will say: Oh, Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!"

Compare Nazi anti-Semitic propaganda to that presently being propagated by Islamist groups, and you may begin to understand why Jews worldwide are beginning to feel unconfortable. In last week's Spectator, the Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, was asked if he had noticed any unease in anti-Semitism? He replied:
‘Oh my goodness yes, it is on the rise,’ said Sacks. ‘I never experienced a single incidence of anti-semitism in my whole life, but when my daughter was studying at LSE, she went to an anti-globalisation rally which quickly turned into a tirade against Israel and America and then a tirade against Jews and she came back in tears and she said: “Dad, they hate us.” That sent a shiver down my spine, I just thought we were beyond that. That was nine years ago and it has got worse ever since.

As the above video observes: "The worst form of child abuse is teaching a child to hate." It is for all of us to address the rise of this evil, but for Muslim groups in particular to disown and condemn it unequivocally.

43 Comments:

Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Secret Affairs: Britain's Collusion with Radical Islam by Mark Curtis

Should make good reading!

9 July 2011 at 16:29  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Hold on, at 1:46 there's a scene dated Dec 2001 location Lebanon. Aren't they the Lebanese Phalanges, a political party who are usually supported by the Maronite Christians in Lebanon? Their constitution requires the President to be a Maronite in a constitutional power sharing set up. The Phalanges were part of the Civil War in the 1975 against the Palestinians. Could be wrong, but they look like the Phalange Party to me in that scene.

9 July 2011 at 16:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

They're the people doing the Nazi salute.

9 July 2011 at 16:43  
Blogger IJD said...

The Phalange (Arabic for 'Crusaders', from the old word for Franks) were the mob that committed massacres against Palestinians on the Lebanon border.

I do find your blog posts uncomfortable sometimes Cranmer, but that is why I make a habit of reading your blog, to listen to and consider viewpoints that I wouldn't necessarily agree with. However, this strikes me as a bit sloppy.

And the video title, "the shocking video muslims don't want you to see?" (since there is that global Muslim conspiracy and all)?

9 July 2011 at 17:02  
Blogger ibbers said...

I should point out that Islamism is equivalent to Nazism, and is something I intensely despise as a Muslim. However, the overall quality of this post lacks the usual clarity of His Grace.

9 July 2011 at 17:06  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms IJD,

His Grace did not produce the video, and he agrees that the video's title is absurd. But that should not be a hurdle to its content any more than the cover should be to a book.

9 July 2011 at 17:06  
Blogger ibbers said...

Fair enough then, Your Grace.

9 July 2011 at 17:07  
Anonymous Toby the Jug said...

" .... she went to an anti-globalisation rally which quickly turned into a tirade against Israel and America and then a tirade against Jews and she came back in tears and she said: “Dad, they hate us.” That sent a shiver down my spine, I just thought we were beyond that."

"We" are beyond "all that" but it doesn't mean one cannot be critical of Isreali and Jewish policies!

The problem is in "Dad, they hate us." Who are "they"? Certainly Islamists hate Jews and I agree it is the same root as Nazism's hatred. However, this isn't the same as disagreement.

9 July 2011 at 17:12  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

'...Jonathan Sacks, was asked if he had noticed any unease in anti-Semitism? He replied:

‘Oh my goodness yes, it is on the rise,’...


...unease...? Surely 'increase'.

9 July 2011 at 17:20  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Anabaptist,

His Grace agrees that 'increase' would make rather more sense (indeed, 'unease in' is manifestly incorrect). But it was cut and pasted from the Spectator's published article. In full:

"But it’s not just on campus. We discussed, the rabbi and I, a frightening article in a recent paper by a disabled lady, in which she reported a growing hostility towards wheelchair users in London. Has he noticed any unease in anti-semitism? ‘Oh my goodness yes, it is on the rise,’ said Sacks. ‘I never experienced a single incidence of anti-semitism in my whole life, but when my daughter was studying at LSE, she went to an anti-globalisation rally which quickly turned into a tirade against Israel and America and then a tirade against Jews and she came back in tears and she said: “Dad, they hate us.” That sent a shiver down my spine, I just thought we were beyond that. That was nine years ago and it has got worse ever since.’"

Perhaps His Grace should insert a 'sic'. But it is certainly not for him to amend a quotation or 'clarify a meaning' for his readers, for that would be to do a Hari (which really ought to become a literary term).

9 July 2011 at 17:43  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Hell, there's a a thousand videos giving it the same, regardless of this one being having a duff moment or two, using stock-footage carelessly.

9 July 2011 at 17:46  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If Hitler had marketed Nazism as a religion, and claimed that Mein Kampf was divinely inspired, then maybe he'd have established his 1000 year Reich without any opposition...



Your Grace, I am writing on behalf of the Church of Adolf Hitler (pbuh), formerly known as the Nazi Party.

Having decided to transform ourselves into a religion, we have abandoned all worldly ambitions, and intend to concentrate on our higher spiritual objectives of non-violent global conquest, compassionate enslavement of inferior peoples, and peaceful extermination of the Jews.

Since we are now a religion rather than a political movement, we demand the following rights and privileges appropriate to our new identity:

- An end to Naziphobia in the media, especially war films showing the Nazis in a bad light.

- Tax exemption for all places of worship including airfields, munitions factories, extermination camps etc.

- Destruction of all blasphemous cartoons of Adolf Hitler(pbuh) produced in the Second World War.

- An apology from the British government for the campaign of Naziphobia waged by Winston Churchill, and the hurt feelings inflicted on the Afrika Korps at El Alamein by the Naziphobic bigot Montgomery.

- An apology from the American government for the insensitivity by the raging Naziphobe Eisenhower in failing to forewarn Nazi community leaders of the D-Day landings, which caused much distress among the peaceloving Nazis holidaying in Northern France.

- Burning 'Mein Kampf' must become a hate crime punishable by hanging with piano wire.

- Application of our parallel legal system known as 'The Gestapo' must be enforced in so-called 'democratic' countries.

- We demand affirmative action, in the interests of community cohesion, to promote Nazis to high positions in the security services.

- We demand government funding for the expansion of our youth activities, which play a vital role in keeping the younger generation out of trouble, and concentrate their minds on wholesome activities such as rallies, processions, camps, pogroms etc.

- The occasional Blitzkrieg invasions of sovereign states must not be portrayed in the media as being typical of Nazis as a whole, since this leads to Naziphobia. Rather they must be shown to be the work of a tiny minority of extremists who have hijacked a peaceful spiritual movement.

Peace in our time and Heil Hitler!
- Bishop Joseph Goebbels

9 July 2011 at 18:00  
Anonymous Voyager said...

It is tiresome to engage in Reductio ad Hitleram . He is not the backstop to weak arguments but simply a mid-20th Century Nationalist Politician seeking redress for some bizarre impositions at Versailles thanks to Woodrow Wilson and Georges Clemenceau.

The fact that Hitler had Muslim troops does not detract from the fact that Britain did too. The fact that the US/UK Intelligence Services brought the Muslim Brotherhood to Europe and built them a Mosque in Munich in 1957 to cause problems for the Russians is besides the point.

We have a problem in Britain that ever since Margaret Thatcher let Algerians expelled from Paris settle in London we have provided refuge to Muslim gangsters and terror groups and London is an Arab Capital. The terrorism is Arab inspired and Arab funded because Islam has become an Oil Religion

9 July 2011 at 18:58  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

Thanks Cranny. Perhaps Hari is now writing for the Spectator. Nothing would surprise me any more.

9 July 2011 at 19:00  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Dr Radwan, being a good Muslim, is quoting the Prophet Mohammed. The hadith is in the collection of Sahih Bukhari at Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177.

9 July 2011 at 19:01  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Until Islam takes a good look at what it preaches , it is unlikely to ever deliver any of its nations out of violent bondage to some sort of working democracy.
It perhaps does have some of the aspects of nazism ,is allah really the god prophet under which its nations and peoples only experience corruptions ,police states and war?

9 July 2011 at 19:14  
Anonymous Greg Tingey said...

I've been saying this for years - and been labelled "racist" for it.
RELIGION is, of course the problem, not specific variations.
There are, after all, muslims who are are no threat to anyone - Sufi, Ismaili, Ahmadhi, as there are christians - Quakers ...
Then you have the others.
Oh dear.

9 July 2011 at 19:32  
Anonymous MrJ said...

In perspective: not only as Voyager said (18:58) but also....

ARMS AND THE COVENANT / American Title: WHILE ENGLAND SLEPT [1938] Churchill's collected speeches 1928 to 1938. From speech of 24 March 1938:

“For five years I have talked to the House [of Commons] on these matters—not with very great success. I have watched this famous island descending incontinently, fecklessly, the stairway which leads to a dark gulf. It is a fine broad stairway at the beginning, but after a bit the carpet ends. A little farther on there are only flagstones, and a little farther on still these break beneath your feet...if mortal catastrophe should overtake the British Nation and the British Empire, historians a thousand years hence will still be baffled by the mystery of our affairs. They will never understand how it was that a victorious nation, with everything in hand, suffered themselves to be brought low, and to cast away all that they had gained by measureless sacrifice and absolute victory—gone with the wind! Now the victors are the vanquished, and those who threw down their arms in the field and sued for an armistice are striding on to world mastery....We should lay aside every hindrance and endeavour by uniting the whole force and spirit of our people to raise again a great British nation standing up before all the world; for such a nation, rising in its ancient vigour, can even at this hour save civilization." (penultimate page of Arms and the Covenant) [more infomation about the publishng history of this speech at http://www.churchillbooks.com/GuidePDFs/g58.pdf]

9 July 2011 at 19:41  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

Greg Tingey said...

RELIGION is, of course the problem, not specific variations.

Yes, the Terror of the French Revolution, and the Great Terror of the Russian Revolution, and the Ukrainian Harvest of Sorrow, and the 100 Flowers campaign, and the Great Cultural Revolution, and the Cambodian Killing Fields, and the Vietnamese re-education camps were all the product of religion. Robespierre and Marat and Yezhov and Beria and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot - believers all.

And did I mention that Hitler was consciously seeking to displace Christianity with Nazism? That the Nazi state was creating Nazi holidays to set on top of Christian holidays? That it was writing Nazi Christmas carols? That it called National Socialism the "true Christianity?" That it developed something called 'Positive Christianity' to tear it from its Jewish roots and make Christianity consistent with National Socialism?

Yes, it's religion that's the problem. I see clearly now.

carl

9 July 2011 at 20:00  
Anonymous Kesterr said...

This makes me ashamed to study at the LSE, and I'd go as far as to say things have gotten far worse since then

9 July 2011 at 22:48  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Chilling footage, Your Grace,and some exceptional posts from communicants, in particular Mr Anonymous @ 18.00. Even as the demonisation of the Jews and Israel there are occasional moments of relief.

Fortunately the state of Israel appears to have two potential saviours, Barack Hussein Obama and Tayyip Erdogan. Please forgive the cut and paste from the excellent Debkafile:

DEBKAfile Exclusive Report

02 July The organizers of Freedom Flotilla II against Israel's naval blockade on Gaza – among them Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal's son-in-law Hamoud Tareq - never dreamed the stalling of their expedition would be served up as the founding step of the nascent pro-US Israel-Greek-Turkish alliance. The organizers discovered their mistake Friday, July 1, when fast Greek coastguard commando boats escorted the American "Audacity of Hope" back to port and Athens announced any vessels departing for Gaza would be stopped.
Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou though fighting for his life against furious domestic protest found time to scotch the anti-Israel flotilla. He was not alone: The Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan withheld permission from the Mavi Marmara, the Turkish vessel which led the first pro-Palestinian flotilla last year, to sail for Gaza. Flotilla vessels were mysteriously sabotaged in Greek and Turkish ports.
DEBKAfile explains their cooperation with Israel by the US President Barack Obama's close understanding with the Turkish prime minister and their decision to establish a new Turkish-Israeli-Greek bloc in the eastern Mediterranean.

Whether a two-state solution can be avoided by Israel under the aegis of the Erdogan-Obama axis remains to be seen. But Turkey has a massive problem on its hands with the collapse of the Assad regime in Syria. It would appear that Ankara is worried by a possible coalescence of Kurdish interestes from both within Syria and its own borders. As Israel has frequently supported the Kurds to apply pressure to potentially hostile Muslim powers, the Turks currently need Israel on side while resolving their own difficulties.

What is the price?

A week in the Middle East is a long time.

9 July 2011 at 23:08  
Anonymous wally said...

"There are, after all, muslims who are are no threat to anyone - Sufi, Ismaili, Ahmadhi..." - Greg Tingy, 19:32

There is no notable sufi teacher or leader who has not believed that it is the duty of Muslims to dominate non-Muslims by all means, including warfare. The good old Muslim technique of always forgetting to mention this fact, when dealing with infidels, has done wonders for their image. In fact, historically, some of the most fanatical jihadis have been sufis of one branch or another (and by no means just acting defensively, either).

Although not above wheeling them out as representative of some Muslim opinion, in documentaries made by Muslims for infidel consumption, because of their pacific outlook, the faithful do not regard Ahmadi as proper Muslims. In Pakistan they cannot have Muslim stamped as their religion on their identity card; they are not allowed on the haj; and are sporadically persecuted in many parts of the Muslim world.

The Ismailis are a small minority in the broad mass of he umma.

Regarding the distinction between Islam and Islamism , as far as I'm concerned, there are just Mohammedans and the more avid ones.

9 July 2011 at 23:24  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Thankyou Mr J , Churchills peers were still holding him to the Dardenelles , it is unusual is it not that ,his own class found him insufferable when he could see the new nazi Germany end, before many awoke let alone digested a struggle.

Greg Tingey: His grace does allow some freedom to post and response , your point perhaps makes quite few of your wrong sort of christians go queesy and enjoy a good suck on a more liberal baby pacifyer. As has been pointed out recent idealogical conflicts of athiest attempts at states , do not prove your point.
It is a young persons perspective to call religion the problem , as they have not got to the stage of who or what lies behind the propoganda they invoke the point on .
Blaming religion , assumes that there is some sort of eutopian non relgious state waiting in the wings to solve the problem , it also assumes that religous people contain all the problems , which is a little niave .

You may at some future point in your life , come to see your athiest eutopian masters in a rather different light , often swirling on the edge of some deep hypocracy and blaming someone else.

There is somthing truly magnificent in the christian gospels , transforming , I have sometimes called it a manual , most think record is better ,but challenging it is , I have had questions for many years , some like your own point made me abandone my faith for a while ,as it is such a personal matter of belief . Is placing yourself before the creator of the universe , and having your sins delt with with mercy and grace any more profound than using phsyco/mental techniques to forgive and forget in your own mind ?

The christian faith can appear to have many contadictions , some perhaps rooted in religion , sometimes in phoney ministry , or frothy ministry , but there is somthing authentic in Christ that you find is more comfort the less of youth you have , but beyond the comfort there is somthing profound about good and evil ,that you can build a picture from ,which is more honest than any athiest eutopian belief I have yet encounterd.

10 July 2011 at 01:17  
Blogger George said...

I am the Murdoch, I create the News,

I give you stories to keep you amused,

"What is the truth?" I hear you say,

That which I decide to print every day.

I am the Murdoch.

10 July 2011 at 08:55  
Anonymous MrJ said...

Mr bluedog_ Thank you (again) for the tip (23:08); and have also noted DEBKA report of 6 July that the Palestinian Authority had notified the Obama administration that it would be filing (with UN) a request for admission to the United Nations as "a full member recognized as an independent state within the 1967 borders", but that US has agreed with European powers and Russia that Security Council would discuss it behind closed doors without setting a date, keeping the matter "under consideration". Meantime: Israeli-Palestinian peace summit on 2 September in Paris, where President Obama will join President Sarkozy for declaring the talks open, alongside Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.

"President Barack Obama has decided to shelve any serious effort to generate Israel-Palestinian negotiations for at least two years,"

But still: a week in the Middle East is a long time.

10 July 2011 at 08:56  
Anonymous Greg Tingey said...

Yes, religion is the problem.
Especially when you remember that...
COMMUNISM IS A CLASSIC RELIGION

It has unalterable holy books, different warring sects, variant prophets, a willingness to slaughter millions for the holy cause for an unnattainable "heaven" etc.
This is NOT news, but some correspondents here seem unaware of this.
So, Carl, logic and history FAIL I'm afraid.

As for sufi, I have one as a neighbour, and HE claims that the "struggle" is all spiritual" - and acts accordingly.
Are all christians the same?
No.
You have several different sets of lying murderers (like the Inquisition and the Covenanters) and you have others, like the Quakers.
Muslims are the same - BUT we should remember that islam is 622 years behibd christianity, and it shows.
OK Wally?

Finally: "Not a Machine"
Take your pompous self-delusion away, please.
I have no atheist "masters"
I WAS brought up in the CofE, and started to leave it whenthe local Canon preached against evolution, showing that his brain had rotted.
It took me a long time to become a full atheist (as opposed to a deist/Spinozan).

In the meantime, here is a testabe proposition (i.e. I can be proven wrong) ...
The catch is that I'm correct until proven wrong:
"No god is detectable - and therefore completely irrelevan and unimportant"
Now, prove me wrong - detect god, or the messages that god is supposed to besending to peole likeG. W. Bush or Mahmoud Ahmenidjad ....
Or shut up.
It is, after all, a fair, scientific test.....

10 July 2011 at 09:01  
Blogger Bellator said...

If a group invaded our country and set up shop, I would hope that we would have a Hamas of our own to resist the enemy in the same way.

Its mostly Salafist Islamism that should be of concern to non-Israelis. They, usually with a trail leading back to Saudi Arabia and covertly linked to Zionist intelligence organisations, are the ones who carry out indiscriminate and barbaric terrorist attacks across the world.

Those under the sphere of Khomeinite influence tend to be more about self-defence and less likely to be linked in to false-flag psychodramas.

10 July 2011 at 11:28  
Anonymous Voyager said...

I would hope that we would have a Hamas of our own to resist the enemy in the same way.

The Israelis created Hamas to oppose the secular PLO

Hamas

10 July 2011 at 12:09  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

George

I am the Murdoch, I create the News,
I give you stories to keep you amused,
"What is the truth?" I hear you say,
That which I decide to print every day.
I am the Murdoch.


When did the NY Times rename itself 'Murdoch?'

carl

10 July 2011 at 15:38  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

Greg Tingey

Yes, religion is the problem.
Especially when you remember that...
COMMUNISM IS A CLASSIC RELIGION


So your definition of religion is ...

"unalterable holy books, different warring sects, variant prophets, a willingness to slaughter millions for the holy cause for an unnattainable "heaven" etc."

When you have to insert an 'etc' into your definition, that's a good indication that your definition is not too rigorous.

carl

10 July 2011 at 15:54  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Oooops posted below on wrong link yesterday:

Fundamental Islamism is hateful, dangerous and most certainly wants to eliminate the Jewish people. This hatred between semitic people goes back millenia and was given 'divine' (in my view demonic) expression in the Koran through a 'prophet' who was clearly deranged and hell bent on world rule.

It is my conviction that, given a chance, Islam will wither in the West and Muslims in Britain will reject much of it. Meanwhile the laws in this country are in place to contain the virus of fundamentalism. The qualification is that the growing hostility being shown towards all Muslims will harden Islam.

Similarly discussion about Isreal should not be divided along a simple pro or anti Isreali line and, worse, if one criticises Isreali policies being given the label of "Jew hater" . We know where this kind of division leads from this country's history.

And that's the problem with the direction the debate here is taking.

" ... she went to an anti-globalisation rally which quickly turned into a tirade against Israel and America and then a tirade against Jews and she came back in tears and she said: “Dad, they hate us.” That sent a shiver down my spine, I just thought we were beyond that."

Being critical of Isreal as a State is not the same as hating Jewish people. Similarly supporting the establishment of an independent Palestine is not the same as embracing Islamism.

10 July 2011 at 17:02  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

Dodo

And that's the problem with the direction the debate here is taking.

I am not clear as to what you are asserting. The woman reported:

"...she went to an anti-globalisation rally which quickly turned into a tirade against Israel and America and then a tirade against Jews and she came back in tears and she said: “Dad, they hate us.”

Are you saying that she could not tell the difference between hatred and criticism of the state of Israel? Are you saying that she is lying? It seems you are very anxious to distance criticism from antisemitism, and that's a fair point. But what has it to do with the woman's testimony?

It is my conviction that, given a chance, Islam will wither in the West and Muslims in Britain will reject much of it.

The strong is not conquered by the weak, and western culture grows weaker by the day. Why should Muslims emulate us when our behaviors are so clearly bringing about our own dissolution? The West cannot even muster the will to reproduce itself. It is fast losing the ability to civilize those few children it decides to endure. It is consuming the cultural capital necessary to maintain civilization that has been accrued over generations. It is expending its inheritance in one big debauch and will soon realize it cannot pay the accumulated debt. What is coming is civil strife as the West realizes that it is losing what it cherishes but doesn't have the strength to maintain it. That is a fearful prospect.


carl

10 July 2011 at 20:17  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Carl

The point I was making was that we shouldn't assume outspoken hostility towards a State is the same as hating the people from that country. You're right, of course, I don't know the details of this young woman's 'testimony' and am certainly not calling her a liar, but before giving it credence as 'evidence' of growing antisemiticism I would want to explore it further. University debates can get heated and comments can be misunderstood.

I'm a bit more hopeful about the capacity of Christianity to survive the modern day 'dark age' we appear to be entering. I do agree with your analysis of the weakness of Christian values and pray this is halted. It is leaving us vulnerable to the real and present threat of Islamism. Let's not isolate and alienate those who are our neighbours though.

Some time ago I posted that Islam may be a visible, material threat. Far worse, in my opinion, is the creeping pagan 'New Age' religion and values sweeping the West. Buddhism and Hinduism have for decades softened up the West. These are Trojan Horses corrupting from within. Mantras, chants and meditating for peace to a 'Supreme Deity'. Tantric 'sacred sexuality' and 'union' with the Divine Goddess. Yet the Christian Church says nothing!

10 July 2011 at 21:10  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Mr Dodo,

Determining whether any given criticism of Israel is antisemitic or not, is actually not all that difficult. If Israel is unfairly singled out, if it is expected to behave differently than anyone else, if the attention and acusations are disproportionate, biased, false or outrageous, if only Palestinian Muslims under Israeli control are the focus, while the actions of the PA and Hamas against their charges are swept under the rug, or if improper treatment of Pals by other regimes is ignored, you have very smelly evidence of antisemitism. And it stinks out there.

I'd like to know, Dodo, if someone can devise a way to identify genuine, principled criticism of Israel from the new versions of the age-old hatred. I doubt it is possible by now, as even well-meaning and otherwise decent people appear to have have apropriated the antisemitically-driven anti-Israel memes and fictions. The pool has been thoroughly muddied; by the UN and the EU, by the Islamic block of countries and their Third World sycophants, by the specially set-up UNRWA and its favoured assistance and special "refugee" designation, and by the thousands of openly hostile and biased NGOs and human rights orgs who have been pumping out anti-Israeli and often anti-Jewish propaganda for decades.

Meanwhile, the world has been very naughty and very unfair. Past Soviet oppression in Eastern Europe and continuing Russian bulying, China's clumsy brutalities, genocides in Africa, cruel suppression of independence attempts by Kurds, Tibetans, Chinese Muslims, religious and ethnic minorities...especially Christians...in the Muslim world. All of these horrors combined have received a fraction of criticism Israel is routinely subjected to. Hannah Arendt's term,the "banality of evil" comes to mind.

This genteel "international pogrom" as I call it, has recently had some set-back. The US Republicans continue to put stops on the White House's attempts to pressure Israel unfairly and I'm proud of our new government in Canada, which has essentially said enough is enough and for no practical "real-politic" reasons has looked at facts and stands with Israel, openly defying the much larger Muslim ethnic vote at home, the entire UN, the Muslim and the Third World block, the collection of government-coddled and sponsored "non-governmental" organizations, the EU lapdogs, and even the current US administration. For that, the unfortunate and hopefully, one-term piece of work in the White House sided with the biggots and allowed Canada...the nation that fought for the liberation of Europe and which recently contributed so much in Afganistan...to be booted from the security council in favour of, get this, Portugal.

10 July 2011 at 21:10  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Avi Barzel said...
"Mr Dodo ...."

I take it you retain an open mind on how best to resolve the issues confronting the world over the Middle East!

The reference in the post was actually to a comments at a University anti-globalisation rally some nine years ago. Hardly a 'representative sample' of students.

Impartiality is difficult when passions become inflamed. I don't see any support for Hamas in the West. There is sympathy for the plight of ordinary Palestian people caught up in the bloodshed and criticism of Isreali policies. That's called "free speeech"!

10 July 2011 at 23:25  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Dodo,

I think I maintain an open mind, but I do have firm opinions on the matter. Opinions which are not bound to make me many friends.

I personally do not hate Palestinians, Arabs or Muslims and frankly, do not know any fellow Jews in my circles who do so. I believe that most "Palestinian" Muslims are caught up between the pincers in the vice of Islam's expansionism and Europe's millenia-old continuum of the expulsions, pogroms and attempted genocide, which now has tranbsferred itself to a rabid opposition to the existence of a Jewish state and a successful, strong Jewish people.

Free speech is free speech and I favour it over restrictions. That being said, it is clear to me that Israel faces more than just kindly and principled "sympathy for the plight of ordinary Palestian people." I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, but I'd love to see an example, as I notice that almost all of the "concern" seems to stop at Israel's and the disputed territories' border. A genuine concern would take into account the behaviour of the Palestinian leadership and of the countries where Palestinians reside. Not to mention a compatrative concern for other peoples living under real and horrible forms of opression with not even a fraction of assistance the Palestinians receive.

Summarized, my position is that the San Remo conference, which designates the historic Jewish heartland, Shomron and Yudah, the "West Bank," as part of the Jewish homeland is the final arbitrator, especially since it is in undisputed force in the division of all the other countries and homelands it applies to. The solution I'd like to see either a peaceful and voluntary exchange of populations or, preferably, a peaceful and amiable co-existence among Arabs and Jews under their own administrations in the formerly Jordanian-occupied lands in dispute. Currently, the attitude to the first is to scream "ethnic cleansing" and to the second, "apartheit."

This not a case of tit-for-tat "passions inflamed;" observe the different forms of ethos and expressionn in Israel and the Territories. In the end, once the power of the petro-dollar wanes, most likely within a decade or two, and the world loses interest in the artificialy created "Palestinian nation," the problem will resolve itself, most likely in a peaceful manner.

But all of the above is idle speculation. Beyond secular politics, it's my belief...one I would argue every Jew is bound to uphold...that the living Jewish people today are the true recipients of the Commandmrents, that the Land of Israel expressly promised by G-d remains as the true and proper home of the Jewish people and that no secular or religious Jewish or non-Jewish authority has a mandate to give parts of it away. How this will happen, whether the divine promise will be fulfilled through the vehicle of the secular Jewish state or with the coming of our Messiah, is an issue beyond my pay grade.

11 July 2011 at 01:44  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dodo it is possible to be against the Israelis and yet sympathise with the rabbi's daughter. What she was exposed to, is naked racism and this is apparently pretty common in UK universities. Although I write a lot of guff about Islam, I would not dream of insulting a Muslim were he in a vulnerable position.

Ivan

11 July 2011 at 02:45  
Blogger ZZMike said...

"They are the ones who must be butchered and killed."

But ... but ... but: haven't our leaders been telling us that Islam is a Religion of Peace?

Either our leaders have been deceiving us, or their leaders have been deceiving ours.

11 July 2011 at 04:39  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Greg Tingey (10 July 9.01)wrote:

‘The catch is that I'm correct until proven wrong:
"No god is detectable - and therefore completely irrelevan and unimportant"

‘It is, after all, a fair, scientific test.....’

Mr Tingey assumes that the instruments of science that are located in space and time, and therefore only capable of measuring that which is finite, should be used to ‘detect’ God who is infinite.

CS Lewis was right: atheism is a schoolboy’s philosophy.

11 July 2011 at 09:53  
Blogger Alcuin said...

This is a clip from the film Obsession: Radical Islam's War against the West. I think this film should be aired publicly, but I doubt that would ever happen.

What is imperative is to listen to what the Islamists (Nazrullah, Ahmadinejad, Qaradawi, Hanayeh and others) say, and to take it at face value. Don't say "they are just sabre rattling, they don't mean it", because they most definitely do. Look at what they have done (the Armenians, Damour, Beslan, 9-11, 7-7, 3-11, Nairobi, Bali) and then look in the mirror and say "they don't really mean it".

11 July 2011 at 18:57  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Avi

Let's just agree to differ. A blog is no place for long arguments and rebuttals.

I do not believe there is a deep seated, widespred hatred of the Jewish people behind the politics of the West. Nor do I believe in you biblical position.

A political solution will need to be found and eventually both the Palestinian and Jewish people will have to give ground.

12 July 2011 at 00:14  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Anonymous Ivan said...
"Dodo it is possible to be against the Israelis and yet sympathise with the rabbi's daughter."

I am not against the Israelis and have some sympathy for the Rabbi's daughter.

"What she was exposed to, is naked racism and this is apparently pretty common in UK universities."

Absolute piffel!

There is no evidence that what she was exposed to was racism - just hostility towards Israeli policies that she interpreted as hatred - and UK universities are not known for racism!

12 July 2011 at 00:20  
Blogger len said...

Anti Semitism is a spirit.It has surfaced in many forms and will use anyone open to its influence.It ran rampant through Hitler`s Germany,is alive and well in Islam,was indoctrinated into the Catholic Church, and yes, even Luther succumbed to its spell.
The master spirit behind anti semitism is the same spirit that has always opposed God and his purposes.

12 July 2011 at 18:04  

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