Saturday, July 23, 2011

Today, we are all Norwegian

It is not appropriate to say an awful lot: sometimes less is more. His Grace's thoughts and prayers are with the people of Norway, who today are facing the appalling bloody consequences of the greatest assault upon their nation since World War II. It is one thing to bomb the centre of governmental political power, but the assault upon the nation's innocent youth is an unspeakable crime of quite a different order of evil. Today, let us weep with those who weep, and remember that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

113 Comments:

Blogger Alexa said...

It makes me so angry to know that innocent youths and mass murderers can both be called 'human'. Well written.

23 July 2011 at 09:57  
Blogger Maturecheese said...

May God help to comfort those poor Norwegian victims and may the perpetrator(s) of this crime get the most harsh punishment that is possible.

There are political manoeuvrings that are bound to evolve from this but now is not the time to mention them.

23 July 2011 at 10:02  
Anonymous Stuart said...

The fact that the Oslo Bomber suspect is a self confessed Christian, makes me feel sick to my stomach.

Oslo bombing suspect Anders Behring Breivik thought to be an extremist right wing Christian fundamentalist

This man is no Christian...

23 July 2011 at 10:13  
Anonymous MrJ said...

"...and remember that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Simply, yes: in whatever way or name those powers can work-- subtly, atrociously, shockingly.

23 July 2011 at 10:27  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A very sad day for Norway and the world. My prayers are with the nation, those who have suffered and those who mourn.

Whatever label the bomber and mass murderer will be given in the future, (right-wing Christian fundamentalist, criminally insane or both) his actions will judged as utterly unchristian and contrary to the most basic moral and ethical standards of Judaeo-Christian teaching.

This is unlike those obey the precepts contained in the training manual of the 'religion of peace' where violent struggle against the religion's enemies is embedded into the entire narrative of the text and is part of the very ethos of the ideology. And where there is a special reward for those who obey.

23 July 2011 at 10:39  
Anonymous Sov_Res said...

So can we now expect Norway to plough millions into far-Rightist schemes to prevent alienation and for their government to caution against far-Rightophobia?

Self-evidently Breivik targetted the Labour party: the authors of Norway's ruinous immigration policy.

Given the 100% correlation between stranger rape and Muslim immigrants in Oslo over the past five years, if I were investigating motive I would be asking if Anders Breivik had a sister.

It is hard to put one's self into the mind of such a person: It is impossible to conceive of what might drive someone to rob so many of their youth and innocence... perhaps one who feels someone close has suffered the same?

23 July 2011 at 10:49  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This man may have visited and posted to Christian websites, but he simply cannot be a Christian, fundementalist or otherwise. There is nothing in the teachings of Jesus or the Saints, or in Christian theology to support any action such as these. Indeed, forgiveness and care for all are key tenets of Christian teaching. By definition, he cannot be Christian (though, of course, he could become one through true repentance).
What people in the media and elsewhere refuse to acknowledge is that islamic teaching and the words of their prophet Mohamed are diametrically opposite to Christian teaching. In their 'documents of faith', there is ample direction to kill and maim and wage jihad. Indeed, it must be obvious to those who know islam, that the closer mohammedans are to their 'religion', the more they must seek to carry out these vile actions. It is an terrible fact that peaceful muslims (the majority, of course) are the ones that are furthest away from their 'religion'.

23 July 2011 at 10:54  
Blogger Caedmon's Cat said...

If you follow Guido Fawkes on Twitter, you will see that he has posted a photograph of the perpetrator dressed in masonic regalia.Make of that what you will. Remember Thomas Hamilton?

23 July 2011 at 10:58  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

The archaic word felon means wickedness, how many wanted felons are walking free today.

We live in wicked, wicked times, in which even the meaning of the term has been turned upside down.

23 July 2011 at 11:09  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Further to Sov_Rev (10:49), Oslo police reported in 2001 that ‘two out of three charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background’, despite being only 14·3 per cent of the city’s population. By 2011, according to this news report, ‘every single rape assault in the last five years, where the rapist could be identified, he was a man of foreign origin.’

23 July 2011 at 11:23  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Anonymouse 10:54
Few Christians are pacifists.

23 July 2011 at 11:23  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Anonymouse 10:54

Christs message of turn the other cheek, is also a message that we all deserve a good slapping, sometimes.

It is no good to argue whether the left or right deserves a good slapping, because do gooders and do evilers are as bad as each other.

Lost in original sin.

The involutionary path allows us to step outside of this World and view it in a detached way, this would reveal no matter how technologically advanced or civilized we believe ourselves to be, Earth is still a backward and primitive planet, being deceived by its ruler.

23 July 2011 at 11:42  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Well, at least the perp is alive so we might get to find out the motives for the atrocity. I'm thinking along the lines of a Nog version of Timothy McVeigh at the moment.

23 July 2011 at 12:13  
Anonymous Sov_Res said...

@Johnny Rottenborough
Ethnic Norwegians are forecast to be a minority in as little as ten years.

Consider how profound this is when Norway has only been an independent nation for just over a hundred years and has no colonial or imperial past.

The Labour Party in Norway is responsible for all of this. There is evidence that Breivik was following this narrative closely.
http://age-of-treason.blogspot.com/2011/07/norway-attacks-anders-behring-breivik.html

Not an excuse. An explanation.

23 July 2011 at 13:00  
Blogger Span Ows said...

Islam may not have done this but it was - at least in large part - the reason it was done...or that's how I read this loon's actions:

http://hurryupharry.org/2011/07/23/anders-behring-breivi-worried-that-muslims-were-threatening-norways-youth-wanted-to-establish-norwegian-edl/

23 July 2011 at 13:09  
Blogger Span Ows said...

Adding to what Johnny Rottenborough and Sov_Rev posetd, I presume he wa sfrustrated at the lack of action and seeing where he thought his country was heading...doesn't expalin the Isalnd target unless it was to stop 'future politicians' going the same route! Let's wait and see, a 2nd suspect ahs been arrested apparently.

23 July 2011 at 13:13  
Anonymous non mouse said...

"we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted." Precisely, Your Grace.

This morning, the Far Left (World Service) dwelt largely on the emotional aspect of the situation. No mention of ethnicity there - only of the "far right" and Christian blogsites......

23 July 2011 at 13:19  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

There’s a comment below this video from ‘Annanyhm2’ (on page 2 at the time of writing) that reveals the consequences of multiculturalism in Oslo, consequences that may have led Breivik to attack the party he saw as ultimately responsible:

❛I always believe in listening to those who experience things first hand. I live in the middle of the eastern part of Oslo. Daily I experience being te only white person on a subway, a bus, in an elevator etc. I am frequently scared in my own country. This weeken, muslim gangs burned 14 cars in my neighbourhood. I can’t own a car even. I hate my own city, my own country and my own life. Non western imigrant are by far the biggest problem in my daily life.❜

23 July 2011 at 13:27  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Span Ows: "Islam may not have done this but it was - at least in large part - the reason it was done...or that's how I read this loon's actions: [link]"

I see the link contains the same terms, political references, and language that appears here quite regularly. How depressing.

23 July 2011 at 13:31  
Blogger Owl said...

non mouse,

you take the words out of my mouth (thoughts out of my head?).

Having watched the reports on TV which dwelt heavily on his Christian, far right background, they then reported that he was "unknown" to the police. Very odd!

A sleeper?

Obviously well planned with a great deal of forethought. Even down to making sure that the Boss was absent when the bomb went off.

Hardly the work of a nutter!

84 socialist martyrs may be a small price to pay for people who walk in the "darkness".

I can't help this very uneasy feeling I have and I get the impression that His Grace is feeling the same unease.

My prayers are for the victims of this atrocity and my anger is against those of the "darkness".

23 July 2011 at 13:38  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Mr Owl, the attacker is being described as 'blue-eyed' and 'blond' as well as being a right-wing, anti-muslim, Christian fundamentalist. The politics of this atrocity promise to be more than usually complex and potentially divisive. One can imagine the authorities being concerned by the possibility of imitators seizing their moment in other parts of Europe.

At a very basic level, how on earth does an ordinary citizen get access to a high-powered rifle like an M-16 in a country like Norway?

This communicant prayerfully shares your sense of unease.

23 July 2011 at 13:57  
Anonymous Dreadnaught said...

how on earth does an ordinary citizen get access to a high-powered rifle like an M-16

You can pick one up in what used to be Yugoslavia for a couple of hundred quid;stuff in the boot of 'family' car and bring it through no bother, thanks to none existant European border controls.

23 July 2011 at 14:11  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Well, I freely admit, that as the news first broke, I was pretty much convinced it was down to some vile, Islamic fiendishness

But no, it is perhaps as DanJo suggests, a Norge version of Timothy McVeigh and, a trail of other, demented low-lifers who manage nowt, except to obfuscate matters and devastate innocent lives. It is beyond reason.

23 July 2011 at 14:46  
Blogger English Viking said...

Bluedog,

'At a very basic level, how on earth does an ordinary citizen get access to a high-powered rifle like an M-16 in a country like Norway?'

You fill out a form at the Police Station.

Truly horrific. It is ironic that this lunatic will have done more to damage the anti-immigration cause in Norway, in two hours of insanity, than if the perpetrator were an immigrant.

23 July 2011 at 15:08  
Blogger Owl said...

Oswin,

with all respect, I think that is what you, and everyone else, are intended to believe.

I think it is sometimes known as "behaviour manipulation".

We are offered two bogeymen at one go, "Christian" and the "Right".

"Blond and blue eyed" is another catch phrase with Aryan supremacy associations.

Why do I get these feelings of unease?

Why, when I feel that I am being manipulated, do I tend to look over my left shoulder?

In fact, I am downright worried that we should not fear immitators but are witnessing part of an ongoing plan.

23 July 2011 at 15:19  
Blogger The Worker said...

Why not simply pray for the victims and leave raking over the coals to a more suitable time? This is no time or political axes to be sharpened. It is a time to pause.

Today, and everyday, we are at one with all those who suffer for in their suffering we see the bruised and disfigured Face of Christ.

23 July 2011 at 15:32  
Blogger Owl said...

Worker,

No, the time for mourning will come.

Now is the time for anger, but not anger poured out in the direction that the MSM would have you believe.

Fear is the greatest weapon that left wing socialism has in it's arsenal.

The time has come to stand up to the principalities, powers, and the rulers of the darkness of this world, and spiritual wickedness in high places.

We know who is ultimately responsible for this atrocity.

23 July 2011 at 16:23  
Anonymous Oswin said...

The Worker:

You are of course absolutely right, but I can't help feeling that such worthy an attitude would not fare ye well at Rorke's Drift (append battle/conflict of one's choice etc)

Oftentimes 'Speculation' - ''raking over the coals'' even, does have a valid purpose; for one, it often serves to diminish the likelihood of precipitous action, the 'jumping to conclusions' - such as admitted to, in my post.

23 July 2011 at 16:34  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

What surprises me is how long he maintained the desire to keep on killing. It's one thing to fantasize about killing. It's quite another to pull the trigger on someone standing right in front of you. This man isn't an experienced killer after all. I have often thought that people who plan these sorts of crimes expect to kill more people than they are actually capable of killing. They become sated with death faster than they anticipate. That's why they bring more ammunition than they ultimately expend.

And yet this man went right on pulling the trigger - and on children no less. This was not a remote crime. It was up close and personal. The level of rage behind this crime must be extraordinary. Either that or he truly is mad. But I would place my money on rage morphing into a desire for revenge. Something along the lines of "A child for a child! See, I take from you what you have taken from others." The extent of the cruelty in this crime is amazing.

Amidst the bloodshed, Rachel weeps for her children. She mourns and will not be comforted. She looks for deliverance and finds it not. Around her she comprehends only darkness. Yet within the dim unknown standeth God within the shadow keeping watch above His own.

carl

23 July 2011 at 16:36  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I find it quite interesting to compare some of the interpretations here to some of the interpretations on Muslim forums.

Some of them are moaning that if the perp had been a Muslim then the outrage against Muslims would have been spread across the front pages of all the newspapers in the West. They're moaning that the TV reporters seemed to be trying to find victims who would rant about Muslim immigrants. They're not happy about the 9/11 reference on the front pages of the tabloids and on the BBC. They're being sarcastic about the Al Qaeda potential being dug up.

To my mind, it's a bit different. It's as though all the attributes: Christian, right-wing, blond, blue-eyed, are being deployed to over-compensate for the initial expectations of the media, and the rest of us I suppose, that it was obviously Muslim and Al Qaeda in origin.

23 July 2011 at 17:33  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Also, I think at times like this people need to find a simple reason why even though it is beyond reason for most of us. It needs to be the work of an extremist of some sort such as a Islamist or a neo-Nazi, or a person on the very edge of society such as a mad man or social outcast, lest we begin to worry about our neighbours. An Other of some sort can be held at a mental distance.

23 July 2011 at 17:38  
Anonymous Toby the Jug said...

It looks like it was a right wing religious lunatic who committed this atrocity.

What's with all this nonsense about Islam? All the 'explanations'? All this rubbish about manipulation? Talk of socialist 'darkness'? Comparisons with Rorkes Drift(?)

Please, do me a favour!

Maybe, just maybe, right wing religious fundamentalism, left unchecked by a true love of Christ and neighbour, breeds hate. Or maybe this guy was just crazy. Let's wait and see, shall we?

23 July 2011 at 17:42  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Again from a Muslim forum: someone has alleged that there was a pro-Palestinian rally on the island the day before. If you follow that around the forums of various sorts and you get claims of Mossad sleeper cells operating over there. Sometimes, I despair.

23 July 2011 at 17:52  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Toby the Jug: thank you, I am now a far wiser person for your intervention.

DanJo: Yep, I'm inclined to agree; having trawled around the sites it seems that no one is content to accept a 'crazed loon' scenario, as the majority of these 'far right' proponents have often proved to be.

23 July 2011 at 18:13  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Toby the Jug (17:42)—Maybe … right wing religious fundamentalism, left unchecked by a true love of Christ and neighbour, breeds hate.

Maybe watching a civilized city become a Third World slum breeds hate.

23 July 2011 at 18:23  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Johnny Rotten to the core

What ridiculous, prejudiced nonsense.

23 July 2011 at 18:43  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Dodo the Dude (18:43)—Yeah, you’re right. I shall write out one hundred times: ‘Rape, carbecues, burqas and the ethnic cleansing of White neighbourhoods are vibrant and enriching experiences.’

23 July 2011 at 18:53  
Anonymous Toby the Jug said...

Oswin said...
"Toby the Jug: thank you, I am now a far wiser person for your intervention."

Pleased to have helped. At Rorke's Drift the British knew who they were facing.

23 July 2011 at 18:55  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Johnny Rotten to the core

You do that if you feel it necessary.

Whilst your at it, why not copy the Beatitudes from the Bible. Once will do.

23 July 2011 at 18:58  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Dodo the Dude (18:58)—If my copying out the Beatitudes will save Oslo and Western civilization, I’ll get to it straightaway. Are you quite sure once will be enough, though?

23 July 2011 at 19:08  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Oswin said ...
"it seems that no one is content to accept a 'crazed loon' scenario, as the majority of these 'far right' proponents have often proved to be."

Now that's just a bit unkind on English Viking and Len!

One can hold 'far right' views without crossing over into madness and murder. It's when they believe they have a 'mission' that they become dangerous.

There's a fine line ...

23 July 2011 at 19:09  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Johnny Rotten to the core

No but it will help make you a better person if you digest the meaning! It's extreme views that yours that feed this madness.

23 July 2011 at 19:13  
Blogger len said...

'We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.'

And as God is pushed further and further back His restraining hand on evil is restricted and the evil powers are able to affect humanity and drive them to commit atrocities such as these.
The intensity and frequency of suchlike atrocities are increasing.

23 July 2011 at 19:26  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Thanks to Messrs. owl and bluedog for exploring possibilities about the dynamics informing this situation.

Also, Maybe watching a civilized city become a Third World slum breeds hate. Yes, Mr. Rottenborough (@18:23). Especially when your own people facilitate the decline; and when those traitors entail your birthright to the slum-developers' children.

Perhaps some people believe that Civil War will not serve; or perhaps, as a sort of vanguard, they presage it. In either light, mightn't it be worthwhile to remember Bezmenov's description of Communist tactics for induction of civil disorder?* This step in subversion ultimately enables intervention by Far Left government, in which they "normalise" the crystalline structure ---- er, sorry: society.



*Bezmenov, Yuri (aka Tomas Schuman). Series of videos on You Tube. c. 1983.

23 July 2011 at 19:27  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

Johnny Rottenborough

What have the victims of this crime to do with anything you have said? Even if one grants the truth of your premise, it does not naturally follow that a man should respond by shooting 100 teenagers with a rifle - teenagers who have nothing to do with what is going on in Islamic neighborhoods in Oslo. You sound like you are saying "But for all those dirty immigrants, none of this would have happened. It's all their fault. They are hated because they are hateful, and now look! They have got a bunch of white teenagers killed." No, they didn't. One man with a rifle killed those teenagers. Don't deflect attention from the murder to the larger issue of Islamic immigration. That's exactly what the shooter wants to happen. He is a killer, and not a martyr for the cause.

carl

23 July 2011 at 19:27  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Dodo the Dude (19:13)—At this stage in our history (the stage where Bernard Lewis predicts that Europe will be Muslim by the end of this century), it is of some importance that European Christendom be saved from extinction. If writing out the Beatitudes isn’t going to do the trick, what do you suggest?

23 July 2011 at 19:29  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ carl jacobs (19:27)—I’m trying to understand what caused Breivik to act as he did. Judging by his comments on the Norwegian ‘Document’ website, mass Third World immigration and its accompanying Islamization played a large part in unhinging him. (He followed events in Britain closely, too; he knew of Andrew Neather’s revelation that the Labour Party encouraged immigration as a deliberate policy of social engineering.) So, the murders and the ‘larger issue of Islamic immigration’ are inextricably linked. It’s important to reflect on these matters. After all, how will Britain react as our Muslim population increases?

23 July 2011 at 19:55  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Johnny R

Will you give an unqualified condemnation of the mass murder of 100 innocent teenagers?

23 July 2011 at 20:00  
Anonymous jack d. said...

Mr Rottenborough, all that is necessary to "save European Christendom" is for Europeans to start attending church.They dont.They dont in their millions.Why might that be? Possibly because the Church has failed its flock at every turn, and departed from its only source of authority, Scripture. Dont blame the Muslims/Hindu's/Sikh's/Jedi or whoever for the failure of the practicing-gay-bishop-comfy-seat-in-the-Lords organization that calls itself "Christian".

23 July 2011 at 20:03  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Dodo the Dude (20:00)—Without a moment’s hesitation. It is a monstrous act. My fear is that this this century will see more violence and civil disturbances as Islam grows and spreads.

23 July 2011 at 20:14  
Anonymous not a machine said...

It was the thought of him going up to children and teenagers and shooting them with lethal intent and language that I found most disturbing , we have had other instances of troubled teenagers and school shootings, but this man is 32 . The forces of evil to compel a person to a slaughter of what he believed was corrupt and the media tag christian , must have everyone wondering , what had happened to this man .

Evil is somthing that as christians we are in battle with , in that we should pray for the families of the dead and the Norwegian people , to not lose god in the face of such terror and twisted perverse actions .

It is said he had been on certain rightwing websites , to me it is one aspect of this all too fantasy lives some can now lead . As I have said before we may not be made for this cyber enviroment at all.

23 July 2011 at 20:15  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ jack d. (20:03)—To ‘start attending church’ I would add ‘achieve an average birth rate of more than 4·7’ (4·7 is the birth rate of British Pakistanis). Unless the population trends are reversed then Christianity in Britain and Europe is finished.

23 July 2011 at 20:20  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

JR: "@ Dodo the Dude (20:00)—Without a moment’s hesitation. It is a monstrous act. My fear is that this this century will see more violence and civil disturbances as Islam grows and spreads."

Let's be very clear about this: it was not the fault of the Muslims in Oslo here, it was the man who set the bomb and pulled the trigger over and over again whose fault it is. There is no mitigation possible here, surely.

I loathe the New Labour party here and the damage it has done but if I go out and commit mayhem and murder then it is I who am accountable for the evil I do irrespective of Blair and Brown's background damage.

23 July 2011 at 20:28  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

The Guardian has some interesting stuff on its site. They refer (@2.41pm) to some of the perp's online comments, translated here. If we are to lay blame at potential triggers rather than at the perp then that's an equally valid place to start. Someone has filled this man's head up with worries of so-called Cultural Marxism, deconstructionism, immigration projections, and so on.

23 July 2011 at 20:43  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ DanJ0 (20:28)—The ultimate fault lies with the politicians who began the process of Muslim immigration just after the Second World War, implanting in Western countries the seeds of a faith that is inimical to Western civilization. I don’t blame the Muslims of Oslo; they’re just getting on with the business of being Muslim. The problem is that they’re getting on with it in the West.

23 July 2011 at 20:47  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

Johnny Rottenborough

the murders and the ‘larger issue of Islamic immigration’ are inextricably linked.'

They are certainly linked in the mind of the killer. That does not mean they are objectively linked. Assume I am very angry because of the NFL lock-out, and respond by shooting a bunch of customers in a sporting goods store. My actions do not objectively provide any information that will help solve the NFL's labor disagreement. I have simply killed people to vent my anger.

The killer's motivations are important only to the extent that they are either representative or reasonable. If you are worried about an increase in savage attacks because of immigration, then you are worried about a much bigger problem than immigration. The problem is not found in the Islamic neighborhoods of Oslo but in the character formation of the general citizen.

carl

23 July 2011 at 20:48  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

No Johnny, the fault lies squarely on the shoulders of the murderer. You are just using piles of dead Norwegian kids to further your racist/EDL agenda.

23 July 2011 at 20:49  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

The first link in my post up there is actually to here.

23 July 2011 at 20:51  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ carl jacobs (20:48)—If you are worried about an increase in savage attacks because of immigration, then you are worried about a much bigger problem than immigration.

The bigger problem is that the indigenous people of Europe will, sometime this century, find themselves living under Muslim rule. The question is: would the indigenous Europeans be justified in using violence to preserve their civilization, or is their civilization doomed because it believes in tolerance to the point of being extinguished?

The problem is not found in the Islamic neighborhoods of Oslo but in the character formation of the general citizen.

Surprising how it’s always Whitey’s fault. When Norwegian girls are raped by Muslims, it’s the girls’ fault for being attractive, etc. The Muslim apostate Wafa Sultan writes of Muslims being raised in a faith that, being fatalistic, allows them to reject any responsibility for their actions—‘it happened because Allah willed it to happen’. It must be wonderful to be a Muslim man.

23 July 2011 at 21:10  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ DanJ0 (20:49)—I made clear my view in my reply to Mr the Dude: a monstrous act. Drawing attention to the political decisions that have resulted in a Western country becoming less and less Western doesn’t lessen the monstrousness of the act or the responsibility of the perpetrator.

23 July 2011 at 21:27  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

Johnny Rottenborough

The bigger problem is that the indigenous people of Europe will, sometime this century, find themselves living under Muslim rule.

And whose fault is that? Perhaps the 'indigenous people of Europe' should bestir themselves from their selfish and self-indulgent bed of fornication and invest themselves in children.

The question is: would the indigenous Europeans be justified in using violence to preserve their civilization

Is that how you would categorize the murder of 100 teenagers? As justified violence in defense of European civilization? Did I miss something? Weren't the victims white? Your question would make more sense ... well, no it wouldn't make sense ... but it would at least be connected if Muslim teenagers had been killed. But the answer would still be "No, shooting 100 teenagers in the back isn't justified to defend European civilization." How did you even arrive at that question in the context of this mass killing?

Surprising how it’s always Whitey’s fault.

Yes, well, 'Whitey' normally gets the blame when he picks up a rifle and murders 100 teenagers. I don't know. It just seems appropriate somehow.

carl

23 July 2011 at 21:36  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ carl jacobs (21:36)—And whose fault is that?

As I’ve argued above, the ultimate fault lies with politicians long dead. A breeding contest with Muslims would be one way out of the mess. While European men may welcome such a challenge, their womenfolk may be less enamoured of becoming mass breeding machines.

Is that how you would categorize the murder of 100 teenagers?

I questioned whether it would be worse for Europeans to use violence to defend their civilization, or, to sit back and allow their civilization to perish. That question looks decades ahead and is unrelated to the massacre. To bring in part of your comment, if Muslim teenagers have to be killed to prevent Europe becoming Muslim, would that be (a) terrible but necessary or (b) wholly unacceptable, with the corollary that Europe must simply accept its fate as a Muslim continent. I pose the question simply to draw attention to what lies in store for Europe. I hope that Islam’s European adventure can be ended peacefully.

It just seems appropriate somehow.

You misunderstand me. In Britain, any failure of immigrant communities to integrate is always laid at Whitey’s door.

23 July 2011 at 22:05  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

....The ultimate fault lies with the politicians who began the process of Muslim immigration just after the Second World War....J.Rottenborough

Ultimate?

What about, the democratic concept?

Q.....You still absolve the electorate 100%. Given that your writings suggest you use logic, why do you never complete the last step, and attribute the ballot box with its inherent power?

The politicians are true representations of the voters' pencil marks, the buck stops there, when they tick, not in Westminster thereafter.

We vote, we receive.....it's a functional, 'responsible adult', political mechanism...... responsible.

Yours,

Mystified

23 July 2011 at 22:05  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Johnny R asked ...
"The question is: would the indigenous Europeans be justified in using violence to preserve their civilization, or is their civilization doomed because it believes in tolerance to the point of being extinguished?"

No - it would not be justified to use violence against Muslims if they simply lived within a democratic society, even if they out numbered the 'indigenous' people.

No - European civilisation is not doomed or facing extinction. If Muslim citizens ever do out number Christians, which I doubt will happen, then, as has been said earlier, the responsibility lies with Christians and their abandonment of Christian values and morals.

23 July 2011 at 22:07  
Anonymous Dreadnaught said...

I agree with most of what Mr Rottenborough says.

Has anyone else noticed that the news channels now refer to Islamic Terrorists as 'External Terrorist Forces'. I reckon It is this sort of willful blindness and linguistic gymnastics exhibited by politicians and MSM that has eventually brought about this horror.

I clearly take it that JR is also not in any way trying to justify the actions of the killer, but more over trying to look in to the possible factors that Breivik will no doubt use 'in mitigation' of his actions.

I was like many others, expecting this atrocity to be the work of Muslims engaged in Jihad - in a perverse way - I wish it was; at least then they would be acting true to form - but this? It is so outrageous it leaves my senses numb with the sheer madness of it all.

That said, the Islamists can now claim to have infiltrated the mind if the infidel to the extent that they are now killing their own children - what a coup - there will be dancing in the streets alright.

But will it cause the politicians to reconsider just what they are doing to centuries of National identities throughout Europe - to what they are doing for future generations to endure - I doubt it. It may however, and as sick as it makes me feel to think it, that this may trigger other extremists to take direct action against the Muslims elsewhere in Europe.

I am wondering if we are witnessing the beginning of the birth of a more hard-line reaction to the selling out of Europe: I can't help drawing parallels to the rise of Nazism in response to deaf politicians and the grievances of the German people.

Jeeze this has really depressed me.

23 July 2011 at 22:13  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Anonymous (22:05)—There was no ‘democratic concept’ when British governments began importing Islam after World War Two; the people were never asked whether they approved or disapproved. A great pity because we all know what the answer would have been. But, in spite of the best efforts of the political élite and the BBC, the people may yet elect a government with a platform—anti-Muslim, racist, xenophobic, intolerant; call it what you will—that will defend Britain against Islam. The longer we wait, though, the more difficult the task.

23 July 2011 at 22:23  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Mr Carl Jacobs @ 16.36 said, 'Amidst the bloodshed, Rachel weeps for her children. She mourns and will not be comforted. She looks for deliverance and finds it not. Around her she comprehends only darkness. Yet within the dim unknown standeth God within the shadow keeping watch above His own.'

Beautiful and well chosen words, thank you.

This communicant wonders to what extent shoot'em-up video games may have played a part in de-sensitising this particular Lone Wolf killer. Brelvik did have military training which explains his technical competence. What seems inexplicable is the choice of a children's camp as the outlet for rage. The choice of an island so that there was no possibility of escape is particularly chilling, too. The Russian school attrocity may have been an exemplar.

23 July 2011 at 22:35  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Mr Dreadnaught, thank you. If some have read my comments as excusing the killer they are mistaken. Pace Dodo the Dude, the Muslim population is increasing and the indigenous population is decreasing; as those trends continue this century, what will be the reaction of the indigenous people—anger or apathy?

23 July 2011 at 22:41  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr R,

So you do concede that the electorate can alter the future with their pencils.

Thus, irrefutably, they are actually the ultimate decision makers in our democracy, they control the future. (just like they did[n't] in 2010).

Further, will you now stop wasting your time blaming the conceded penultimate problem, and consider directing your justified energy, at those you've just indirectly admitted are ultimately responsible?

Surely this would increase the probability of positive change, rather than endlessly letting those truly responsible, off the hook?

Or do you want it both ways?

(It's late, so you can sleep on it, if you'd prefer).

23 July 2011 at 22:53  
Anonymous bluedog said...

M/s Dreadnaught said, 'I am wondering if we are witnessing the beginning of the birth of a more hard-line reaction to the selling out of Europe: I can't help drawing parallels to the rise of Nazism in response to deaf politicians and the grievances of the German people.'

Maybe. There's always a spectrum. But to prove your point Breivik should have taken out a madrassar. He didn't, and he made the mistake of surviving himself. The interviews will reveal all.

23 July 2011 at 23:07  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Anonymous (22:53)—So you do concede that the electorate can alter the future with their pencils.

If the electorate, back in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s, had been given a referendum on immigration and the pencil with which to make its mark, then the electorate could indeed have altered its future. But they were never given that opportunity, hence my argument that the ultimate blame lies with those who encouraged Islam to take up residence in Britain, those long-dead politicians.

Late? I’ve just got into my stride.

23 July 2011 at 23:08  
Anonymous non mouse said...

"The interviews will reveal all." (@23:07) --- if the MSM and the Far Left allow it?

For example and hypothetically speaking, are they likely to let him tell them that they've destroyed the heritage of his children; so, in return, he's destroying their children?

Oh - and down Fidos. I'm neither saying that I share such a view; nor that it is Christian.

23 July 2011 at 23:24  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Why is it that the Church of Christ appears to be failing? We know the 'gates of hell' will not prevail against it, yet it's mission has been compromised. It is in disrepute and not because of perverse priests. It's message has been losing impact for at least the past 60 decades.

Surely Pope John Paul and Benedict are right to try to heal the wounds in the Body? It weakens the Church when different voices call giving opposing guidance. It confuses people, particularly the young, when they witness the denominations of Christians being hostile, at times hateful, towards one another. It undermines the foundations of the Church when the Bible 'can' and 'may' be interpreted to permit premarital cohabitation, divorce and welcome active homosexuality. When doctrines of the incarnation, the physical death and the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ can be 'legitimately' 'questioned'.

The Church needs to come together. As a Roman Catholic I am confident the Church will stand firm because Christ promised this. Is it its duty now is to reconcile?

The insistance on a God given right to read and interpret Scripture as one chooses, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, needs reconsideration. This results in a 'supermarket' Christianity. Find a Church that allows us to continue doing what we want. "We 'love' one another, so it's alright to do what we do." "Look, this passage in the Bible means what we're doing is fine."

Lets be honest there is a need for clear leadership and authority when divisions of theology become threatening to unity and conformity to the message of Christ.

Maybe the 'middle way' is allowing those on the fringes to widen the path and to make its ways crooked.

Accepting Rome was at fault centuries ago, in my opinion, Luther, in taking the dispute out of the Church, was at fault too. Is there now a way to close the wound?

23 July 2011 at 23:41  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr R

They did have their pencil marks in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and most critically, in 2010.

You are now hinging your 'ultimate responsibility' argument, on the 'fact' that change could only have been delivered via a referendum in the 1950s/1960s, whilst conveniently ignoring the elections of the 1950s/1960s.

You also just wrote, about future change being delivered via the ballot box, not the cited pivotal referendum in your explanation.

So I reject your 'they didn't have a referendum, and the ballot box wasn't working at the time' line as.......illogical hogwash.

Because you don't need a referendum to invoke huge political change.....have you heard of the SNP?

So, do you want another go at explaining your conceded / admitted contradiction on whose responsibility this ultimately all is?

We either live in democracy or we don't, you can't have it both ways, so which is it, who's ultimately responsible?

(you and I might be night owls, but our host might not be....so I'll get back to you tomorrow, if you respond.)

23 July 2011 at 23:46  
Anonymous Toby the Jug said...

Sorry for being so ignorant (about this matter, I hasten to add!) but what on earth does 'MSM' signify?

23 July 2011 at 23:47  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

MSM = Mainstream Media

carl

23 July 2011 at 23:56  
Anonymous Toby the Jug said...

Thanks Carl.

I do hate acronyms and text slang too! Can we keep my stupidity about this just between the two of us?

24 July 2011 at 00:11  
Anonymous Toby the Jug said...

Ps

I particularly wouldn't want Mr J to finding out!

24 July 2011 at 00:13  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dodo you can't say all that @ 23:41on this blog!!! Not only will the fundies be after you again but you've probably upset the Anglicans too.

24 July 2011 at 00:21  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Anonymous (23:46)—whilst conveniently ignoring the elections of the 1950s/1960s.

The people would have been able to have their say in the fifties and sixties if a large, well-organized anti-immigration party had been in existence. Even today, such a party is absent from British politics and the Establishment does its best to put the only anti-immigration party we have, the dysfunctional BNP, out of existence by trying to jail its leader, involving it in costly court cases and supporting the Unite Against Fascism group that physically attacks its members.

But, as the years go by, a viable anti-immigration party may emerge. If it does, I hope those pencils will be kept busy.

24 July 2011 at 00:38  
Blogger The Worker said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

24 July 2011 at 00:40  
Anonymous not a machine said...

I havent heard one report on how they apprehended him , says wounded him and it seems he was planning for days including determining that the story/diary would act as a propoganda platform even if dead , and that he was part of a far right terrorist network , with intent to kill future socialist seed bed , that he felt was ruining his country.

One further snippet was Oslo has a 20% immigrant population.

Rudolph hess was only recently disentured and cremated as his grave had become a shrine for neo nazis .

massacres like this have perhaps been somthing of the last 30yrs in our alledged more liberal world mostly in the USA . This one is an exception in that most are goodbye cruel world statements , where as this man is setting up an embrace towards one .

I havent changed my mind on mass immigration , cultural disrespect and displacement are in many historic moments pre cursors to long and bloody struggles.

rascism is utterly wrong , even glassmans blue labour is an effort to ease the guilt of labour polices , with an angry public .
racism is wrong and i am as shocked and bewildered as most people when contemplating what thoughts were in this mass muderers mind as regards his sense of patriotism and his arrival at the slaughter of innocents of actual power, as he has done in making his spectactular narcissim and disturbing nightmare legacy.

To even quote he whos name must not be mentioned is wrong in this case , but you can see that this murderer being alive is going to pose the situation in a way not seen since 1942, which was precursored by a huge bust and a ruined country paying crippling debts off .

European far right can be very dangerous mix indeed , I can only hope it doesnt take hold here ,but hardly surprising given some countries have had such high levels of immigration .

You wonder how many steps any of us could be from having thoughts like him , if provoked and ignored enough with decline and job losses.

Thanks labour and euro socialism , you finally birthed another nutter/mass murderer as nemisis to ignorant elitest democracy .

24 July 2011 at 03:38  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

Toby the Jug

Don't feel bad. I had to Google 'EDL' earlier in the thread. I was close. I guessed 'European Defense League.' In this case I thought MSM might be an American invention.

carl

24 July 2011 at 03:49  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

Johnny Rottenborough

While European men may welcome such a challenge, their womenfolk may be less enamoured of becoming mass breeding machines.

That would be a perfect statement of the problem. When exactly did children become an unwelcome intrusion into an otherwise autonomous life? They used to be considered a gift. Now the are considered voracious consumers of our time and money - costs to be minimized. Little wonder that Europe's birthrate is so catastrophically low. If a sustainable birthrate of 2.1 children per woman is unthinkable, then you deserve the demographic problems with which you struggle. If a birthrate of 2.1 children per woman is considered the output of 'mass breeding machines' then your culture is doomed, and rightfully so. It's basic math. You either replace yourself or your civilization dies.

carl

24 July 2011 at 04:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"I am wondering if we are witnessing the beginning of the birth of a more hard-line reaction to the selling out of Europe: I can't help drawing parallels to the rise of Nazism in response to deaf politicians and the grievances of the German people."

We're pretty disillusioned with the financial system, politicians, and now with the mass media but I'm not seeing a collective shift to nationalism and extreme right-wing politics at all. Some of that is to do with [absolute] affluence, I'm sure, and we might be challenged in that respect with the austerity measures in the future. But I remain more optimistic than not that we will retain our national aversion to right-wing extremism.

24 July 2011 at 07:02  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Carl: "If a sustainable birthrate of 2.1 children per woman is unthinkable, then you deserve the demographic problems with which you struggle. If a birthrate of 2.1 children per woman is considered the output of 'mass breeding machines' then your culture is doomed, and rightfully so. It's basic math. You either replace yourself or your civilization dies."

We're a relatively small island. We could actually benefit from a smaller population in the long run but obviously we need to get over the longevity changes first.

I think the issue Johnny is raising is that our population is definitely growing but that the growth is from the 'wrong sort of people' in his view.

It's a matter of statistics and he and I differ on their interpretation, what can be projected from them, and what we can (if we choose) do about it now.

Personally, I think we at least need to regain true control of our borders and that means leaving the EU. I'm a late convert to that view, it has to be said.

24 July 2011 at 07:10  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Take a look at this on the Pew site.

Also, take a look at Total Fertility Rates (TFR) in the UK in the last decade. There's some data and analysis here which seems to be a reputable source.

Figure 1 is pretty interesting, as is the convergence. Take a look at figure 5 for the religious breakdown too.

There are much more, erm, palatable population projections available than the scare ones for political purposes from the EDL and BNP if you look at the official sources.

24 July 2011 at 07:34  
Anonymous Dreadnaught said...

Danjo
I'm not seeing a collective shift to nationalism and extreme right-wing politics at all

The key word here is 'seeing'

As Mr Rottenborough has ably illuminated, the complicity of the MSM in the political transformation of Europe from a white/Christian or at least white/Christian compliant culture has been done at the expense of the 'lumpen proletariat' who at at the shitty end of this 'reformation' of change. It is not the elite who feel like strangers in their own towns. It is not the politicians who have seen their jobs disappear. It is
only these people who glibly tell the majority, that they are being 'culturally enriched' and that is good for them whether they want it or not.

Breivik knew if he had attacked a Mosque, Muslims would have taken revenge all over the world on Christians, Europeans and whomever was nearest to hand and the Left would have made the usual excuses for them.

This man is intent on having himself made the Horst Wessel of the 21st Century. He wasn't shot dead or commit suicide - he wants his day in court. This is a cold calculating political animal who sees himself as the catalyst for radical change and given time, I believe he will attract a fringe following of wannabes. But this is all the Islamists have had and they have succeeded where the Ottomans failed - they have virtually conquered Europe through Left sponsored multiculturalism and resulting demographic change.

On the other hand of course, this man may well be a self styled Christian extremist who saw himself as a modern day Abraham who only this time, either misheard or failed to receive the word of 'God' - who knows.

24 July 2011 at 08:35  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Johnny: "To bring in part of your comment, if Muslim teenagers have to be killed to prevent Europe becoming Muslim, would that be (a) terrible but necessary or (b) wholly unacceptable, with the corollary that Europe must simply accept its fate as a Muslim continent."

Well, we can describe it as "gruesome, but necessary" if the times comes I suppose. The Beeb is asking this morning how people such as the murderer become radicalised (with echoes there regarding the Islamist murders). I ought to direct them here and they can ask for themselves.

24 July 2011 at 09:11  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dreadnaught: "The key word here is 'seeing'"

Well, perhaps, but I don't spend all my time in a rarefied, educated, professional, middle-class environment.

I really don't know how this will pan out in the next few weeks. We have the JRs here capitalising on it to point the ultimate finger at the 'left-wing' (meaning the centre left in reality) and trying to stir up anti-Muslim sentiments as ever. On the other hand, the language this man has used is almost identical to the language used by the extreme right-wing here and by organisations like the BNP out of the public eye. I've treated it as 'conspiracy theory' stuff held by relatively harmless nutters and quietly laughed but perhaps a harsh, uncompromising light needs to be shone on it and a public debate kicked off.

It won't take long I don't suppose for media commentators to pick up on the Cultural Marxism references scattered throughout his words and start writing about it. Especially when his court appearance is analysed. Interesting times, I think.

24 July 2011 at 09:28  
Blogger len said...

Dodo,
Your Church is part of the problem not the solution.
By distorting the Gospel and persecuting the true Church your organisation forced it underground.

Now in spite of everything you try to take the moral high ground!.

Your organisation is being exposed for what it really is, a hypocritical, self serving, organisation more concerned with hiding its own sins and inadequacies than protecting the weak and the helpless it has abused.
And you have the gall to use these atrocities to try and manipulate Christians to bow to the authority of Rome .You disgust me.

24 July 2011 at 09:49  
Blogger Span Ows said...

Great comments len, dreadnought, not a machine, carl and...it must be said DanJ0, very pleased to read your borders/EU comment.

A question re your links to Pew etc Dan, they seem to confirm the higher Muslim birthrate, in fig 1 of the pdf Pakistani and Banglaeshi are well over average and on the Pew Research centre has them going from 50% higher to more than double (albeit on falling totals)

24 July 2011 at 10:29  
Anonymous Dreadnaught said...

DJ
This is a totally horrific event and should be regarded as nothing less but the fact remains that unless we are free to use the appropriate language to address the core matter in the context of reality we are destined I fear, to see more bloodshed.

The bottom line in this particular instance is indeed that this man is an abomination. However, it would be foolish in the extreme to ignore the fact that politicians and the MSM close down any possible dissent to uninvited multiculturalism, by instant vilification and accusations of blatant racism. Unsurprisingly they don't apply the same rigour to Islamic politics. They seldom analyse or raise public awareness of the actions and influence of The Muslim Brotherhood or the global push for a seat at the UN for the Organisation of Islamic Conference. Hizb-ut-Tarhir, Jamaat-islamia, Hamas or Hezbolah - not to mention the Taliban's golden aim of capturing Pakistan's nuclear facilities are similarly lightly reported: except that is, when Israel hits back after months of persistent rocketing.

Look at Sudan and Somalia and what the political Muslims are doing there - yet all we hear is about drought and where to send our money.

What do the politicians do about the funding of the spread of Wahabbism ideology in the Uk and Europe by Saudi Arabia? - bugger all. What do we hear of the long term ambitions of Iran in the Gulf or Turkey's drift towards increased theocratic influence? - not a lot. The politicians deliberately keep us in the dark because they are still on course for the admission of potentially 80 odd million passport holding Turks to the EU at some time deemed suitable. That also means a porous European border with Iran, Iraq and anywhere else where borders are virtually none existent - but do the politicians admit this or not see the potential dangers? - not on your life they don't.

France is still hell-bent on redressing its loss of Levantine influence by establishing the Euro-Med federation - but will they consult the electorate? - how many are even aware of it - Ha!

But the common denominator of all this is Islam and the Arabic culture of jihad and that means all Muslims in my book. They by their inaction to question their Imams and Mullahs, they facilitate the process. Even the most Western assimilated believe that the Koran is the actual word of Allah which confirms their superiority over the infidels - what else would they do if they didn't feel particularly attached to their heads?

That this world belongs to Him and they are his agents who will reclaim it, is the undisputed objective of modern Islamists: the only difference is how far an individual Muslim is prepared to commit the resources at his disposal to the cause.

24 July 2011 at 10:35  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ carl jacobs (04:39)—If a birthrate of 2.1 children per woman is considered the output of ‘mass breeding machines’ then your culture is doomed, and rightfully so.

You’re twisting my words. My comment about ‘mass breeding machines’ referred to competing with the Muslim birth rate of 4·7. If Britain were still an homogeneous nation, a fall in the birth rate would mean nothing more than a smaller population; the country and its culture would remain exactly the same and wouldn’t be remotely ‘doomed’. I never intimated that a birth rate of 2·1 constituted mass breeding.

24 July 2011 at 10:47  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Okay Mr R

I see your stance as this :

... that future unprecedented decisions that voters make, are the critical factor, above all else (i.e. a huge SNP / UKip* like 'change', at a snap election in 4 months time for example), yet, the result from an election a mere 15 months ago, was "ultimately" the responsibility of dead MPs from 1950s....?

That's a glaring anomaly that shouts illogical 'rubbish' to me. This is what motivates me to write.

Given their AV obedience and Council results, I'd say, 'no change' is the order of the day for a long time yet - if ever -, so when they fluff the next GE, are you still going to blame all unwanted immigrant arrivals, thereafter, on the politicians from the 1950s, with the pencil wielders, off the hook, as always?

So sir, I'll leave you perpetually flogging your 'dead' horse theory, though I have no confidence it'll be of any use evoking the required......mass political SNP like shift, needed.

Good luck to you, all the same, we need it.




*I accept that UKip aren't really able to cut the mustard, (their twitchy 'net' problem), but an inch in the more-or-less right direction, is infinitely better than another 60 miles in the wrong.

24 July 2011 at 10:48  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Span: "A question re your links to Pew etc Dan, they seem to confirm the higher Muslim birthrate, in fig 1 of the pdf Pakistani and Banglaeshi are well over average and on the Pew Research centre has them going from 50% higher to more than double (albeit on falling totals)"

What's the actual question? As you say, the data shows a significant difference now, and projects a continuing difference in the future. However, the projection shows a convergence trend. But there are so many factors and assumptions there that it's only a guess either way.

If we were to do something about this then there are a number of things we could do without loading up cattle trains or shooting our own youths to make a political point.

I suggest that socio-economic factors might play a part, since I think our below-two fertility rate is partly a result of that. Migration is another. If I recall correctly, Denmark has made it difficult for immigration by marriage to happen, which is a pretty radical step. But, hey, it's an option.

24 July 2011 at 10:55  
Anonymous crombouke said...

I agree with Deadnaught. The Muslims and dhimmis will use this tragedy to attempt to shut down all criticism of Islam by equating the Orwellian thoughtcrime of 'Islamophobia' with active support for 'right-wing' terrorism.

So while the subject of Islamic terrorism will remain deliberately muddied by leftwing moral equvalence for some time to come, we counterjihadists need to increase our emphasis on all the the other evil and destructive effects of Islam on our cultures, as described in this comprehensive list of resources.

24 July 2011 at 11:00  
Anonymous IanCad said...

Dreadnaaught,
I have only read the most recent posts on this thread and maybe some others echo your views.
I wholly agree with you.
It is with triumphant glee that most of the radio reports I have listened to, declare this murderer to be a "Fundamentalist Christian".
As in:
Fundamentalist Christian conservative.
Fundamentalist Christian home schooler.
Fundamentalist Christian global warming denier.
Fundamentalist Christian homophobe.

You get the drift.

24 July 2011 at 11:04  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Dreadnaught (10:35)—Well said. Your comment about even ‘Westernized’ Muslims accepting the word of Allah reminded me of a couple of Saudis I knew when I lived in Saudi Arabia. They were studying medicine, spoke perfect English, wore Western clothes and spent their summers in Austria but they believed implicitly that apes were ‘bad men’ who had been punished by Allah.

24 July 2011 at 11:07  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Anonymous (10:48)—When the people, 60 years ago, were denied a referendum on immigration and when they have had no viable anti-immigration party for which to vote, I can’t see who else to blame but the politicians (dead and alive). We’ll have to agree to differ.

24 July 2011 at 11:17  
Anonymous Dreadnaught said...

Mr R
Thank you for your kind comments, but you and I are not alone in appreciating the potential long term negative changes being initiated and secured in Europe - but what to do other than speak as we find and grow a thicker skin. I've never harboured hate for any any person for their beliefs, but I'm not so dumb as to be deferential to the political imposition of a predatory alien culture in my own Country.

24 July 2011 at 11:25  
Anonymous permanentexpat said...

So many comments...I haven't the time to read them all.
A terrible tragedy & my condolences to the survivors. We must wait a while to see the details.
My immediate thought: It could just as well have happened here & probably will...the tinder has been laid by the policies of our successive traitrous governments.
The unfortunate Norwegians should see this as a 'wake-up call' They ignore it at their peril.

24 July 2011 at 11:43  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr R

Thanks for clarifying your position for me, I clearly see now, that you are a Hitchinite.

Rome burns....but so what?....you want a perfect...." viable anti-immigration party".....I'm not sure you understand, this a paradox:

Think Wilderness, think Churchill, Rivers, Powell(ding-dong), 7 years jail threat x 2, Griffin, Fitna, the Geert Wilders show trial.....there's never going to be a "viable anti-immigration party".....can't you see what happens every time anyone goes near certain political territory?

Oh well, just as well we've got all the time in the world......eh?

24 July 2011 at 12:14  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Johnny Rottenborough @ 23.08 (et al) said, 'If the electorate, back in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s, had been given a referendum on immigration and the pencil with which to make its mark, then the electorate could indeed have altered its future. But they were never given that opportunity, hence my argument that the ultimate blame lies with those who encouraged Islam to take up residence in Britain, those long-dead politicians.'

You mean of course, coloured immigration, Islam was not on the radar.

The percentage of the British population who actually understood the threat of Islam in the 1940's and '50's was extremely small. The argument was always about 'coloured immigration' and the culture of the coloured people was never considered. The electorate and most politicians had no concept of comparative religion until very recently. There was certainly no depth of understanding about Islam. If you had asked the man on the Clapham omnibus to define the threat of Islam in say, 1953, he would not have understood the question, and most probably nor would have his MP. Those who had served in India such as Enoch Powell were in a minority who also seemed unable to sell their ideas without sounding slightly unhinged. If you had asked Clapham man if he wanted negroes or Indians living next door, he would have definitely been against the idea, we can agree on that point.

But now the terms of the debate have shifted, colour is not seen as a threat per se, but culture most certainly is.

Until say, 1960, Britain was still a genuine global power and desparately defending her interests against both the the Soviet Union and the United States. Decolonisation was a cause celebre in the UN, and both USA and USSR were as virulent as the Non-Aligned bloc (read India) in reducing the European empires.

It was the need not to provoke anti-British sentiment in the remaining British colonies that prevented any vote against coloured immigration in the UK, whatever British opinion may have preferred. The rise of Third World immigration in the UK is therefore an unintended consequence of a 25 year struggle to mitigate or prevent the collapse of British power. By the time that Churchill died in 1965, the battle was effectively lost.

You could make exactly the same arguments to explain the current predicament of France.

24 July 2011 at 12:41  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ bluedog (12:41)—Oh, quite: it is only in recent years that the cultural impact of Islam has impinged on the national consciousness, thanks to a growing, and increasingly vociferous, Muslim population and to events such as 9/11; back in the 1950’s, immigration was defined only by colour. While Britain is being Islamized, the United States is being Mexicanized. There’s no doubt as to which country has the better deal. As you have mentioned Enoch Powell, here is his summation of colour versus faith:

❛It is by ‘Black Power’ that the headlines are caught, and under the shape of the negro that the consequences for Britain of immigration and what is miscalled ‘race’ are popularly depicted. Yet it is more truly when he looks into the eyes of Asia that the Englishman comes face to face with those who will dispute with him the possession of his native land.❜

24 July 2011 at 13:36  
Anonymous Dreadnaught said...

The rise of Third World immigration in the UK is therefore an unintended consequence

Sorry I disagree Mr Dog, especially with reference to the present situation - this was deliberate demographic manipulation by a Nu-Lab policy to replace their missing 'working class' vote with those of hopefully 'grateful' immigrants.

"1997 to 2010 will be remembered above all is the unprecedentedly fast rate of immigration into this country. During this period, some three million immigrants were added to the British population".

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/columnists/article-1250096/Using-immigration-turn-Britain-nation-Labour-voters-shameful-I-hardly-believe-it.html#ixzz1T1dMM9Nc

24 July 2011 at 14:16  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len said ...
"Dodo,
Your Church is part of the problem not the solution ... Your organisation is being exposed for what it really is, a hypocritical, self serving, organisation more concerned with hiding its own sins and inadequacies than protecting the weak and the helpless it has abused.
And you have the gall to use these atrocities to try and manipulate Christians to bow to the authority of Rome. You disgust me."

Now that's a Christian attitude! Disgust. What do you do when something or someone disgusts you? Not too big a step to take to eliminate the source, is it?

Was the following the 'offending' passage?

"Lets be honest there is a need for clear leadership and authority when divisions of theology become threatening to unity and conformity to the message of Christ.
Maybe the 'middle way' is allowing those on the fringes to widen the path and to make its ways crooked."

So, what is your proposed solution to the divisions and wounds in the Body of Christ? Name calling? Disgust? Hate?

24 July 2011 at 17:17  
Anonymous bluedog said...

M/s Dreadnaught, no need to apologise for disagreement, but your subsequent points are wrong in my view.

The culture of the Blair government was extraordinary because it detached Labour from the old white working class. Thus it was possible for Jack Straw to deploy arguments such as those publicised by Andrew Neather. The Blair government genuinely held the British people in contempt. No previous British government of any stripe ever did so. You cannot therefore compare attitudes in the period 1945 to 1996 with what came later under Blair.

It is important to get the time line right.

24 July 2011 at 22:15  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dreadnaught: "Sorry I disagree Mr Dog, especially with reference to the present situation - this was deliberate demographic manipulation by a Nu-Lab policy to replace their missing 'working class' vote with those of hopefully 'grateful' immigrants."

I agree with bluedog's overall points but I'm fairly confident that your point there was what happened during their tenure, at least in part. Certainly the Indian-British where I live tend to be natural Labour voters on the whole, beyond mere self-interest at the time of the election, I mean.

I wonder though whether it was more than that. I can imagine, seeing themselves as the 'progressive left' whilst being centre right on many things, they thought that importing diversity would break down the residual class system and other social strata, and encourage the breakdown of enclaves.

25 July 2011 at 06:59  
Blogger len said...

Dodo,
You are endeavouring to manipulate people to follow your Pope, the arch heretic who attempts to replace Christ.
My attempts to heal the wounds?
Only Christ can do that but He cannot do that until He is allowed to assume His rightful position which is the Head of the Body.
Jesus promises wells of living water but these have been blocked with rubbish deposited by the Roman Church.
It is your(and others) continued support of this Catholic religious system which prevents Christ from uniting the Body.
The Church is fragmenting because the message of Jesus Christ has been lost amongst those who have used religion for their own ends.
Catholics are not alone in this, the American Church has become blatantly a 'commercial operation'.
Secular people are not stupid , they view the 'church' with contempt because of the hypocrisy within it, this devalues the true Christian message given by Christ.
In fact I think Christ would find it hard to recognise His Gospel within what passes as 'Christendom'.
If you genuinely want to' heal the wounds' get rid of the religious garbage and get back to the basics of the Gospel!.

25 July 2011 at 08:20  
Anonymous Tony B said...

len, I presume you're aware that your own message could be construed as "religious garbage"?

26 July 2011 at 21:03  
Blogger len said...

Tony B,
Yes, if one had no discernment at all.

27 July 2011 at 07:58  
Anonymous tony b said...

Ha ha. Touche!

28 July 2011 at 13:41  

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