Sunday, July 31, 2011

While the NHS clamps down on Christian prayer, it spends £205,000 on ‘voodoo’

Healing is a mystery; a miracle, even. The cure of souls has long been the task of theologians and ministers, while the cure of bodies has been given over to scientists. But in the healing, sustaining, guiding of disturbed persons whose troubles arise in the context of ultimate meaning and concerns, we find ourselves in need either of prayer or the psychiatrist’s couch: ‘counselling’ has become a new religion. While theologians increasingly learn less Greek and almost invariably no Hebrew, the pastoral focus is on social services and ‘therapy’: the Church has abandoned Scripture and spiritual direction for synergetic psychology and generic spirituality. We end up with a Freudian-Jungian creed: “We believe in psychotherapy, alternative medicine and pseudo-science, Maker of all things human, seen and unseen...”

His Grace does not, of course, reject the insights of psychology: he is more than content to consider and embrace them as they accord with theological principles and help to explain the frailty of human creation. But he repudiates the wholehearted acceptance of psychotherapeutic ideas which irrationally exclude that which is specifically Christian. As this blog has focused over the years on state-sector employees who have been disciplined, suspended or dismissed for offering to pray for the sick or even for merely mentioning the name of Jesus, it has become evident that our culture is returning to its pagan roots and rolling back three centuries of religious liberty. A shrine of flowers and teddies brings comfort and hope; the Bible and prayer in the name of Jesus bring hurt and despair. So the state moves to outlaw that which divides, for it is ultimately ‘hateful’ or the foundation for ‘extremism’.

His Grace writes this as he ponders a story in The Mail on Sunday, which informs us that £205,000 of public money is being spent by the NHS to examine ‘spiritual healing’ or ‘voodoo’, as Simon Singh calls it. It would be wrong to dismiss this out of hand: research is valuable, and there is no means by which the efficacy of a treatment may be verified other than by scientific trial. But this ‘healing energy’ is a rather nebulous force. And there are those who will say it is a rather bizarre waste of money at a time of government cuts and universal spending restraint. Of course, this is lottery money, so not quite extracted forcibly from the British taxpayers. But there is one sentence which irks:
“The healing appeared to be based on the Buddhist spiritual practice of Reiki, which is ironic when Christian doctors and nurses are warned about praying for their patients.”
Is it more acceptable because the research is led by turban-clad gastroenterologist Sukhdev Singh? Is it because Buddhism is unifying, inoffensive and vogue? Is it because the treatment is said to induce ‘tingling, heat (or) coolness’ and so satisfies a yearning for some kind of attention-seeking ‘God loves me’ religious experience?

Why is £205,000 able to be spent on researching ‘energy flow imbalances’ while doctors and nurses may not even offer prayer to their patients?

His Grace agrees that: ‘Healing energy is all around us. In essence it is universal – part of nature itself.’ But if there is growing evidence that ‘spiritual healing’ can be effective, why aren’t we dedicating £205,000 to a research project into the efficacy of prayer and scriptural direction? And when it is established (as it surely would be) that living a life of prayer and meditation in sacrificial obedience to the Creator brings mental and physical benefit as well as spiritual enlightenment, perhaps the state would stop persecuting those doctors and nurses who have always known so.


Anonymous Sean Robsville said...

Buddhist healing techniques do appear to be cost-effective and save to NHS money.

31 July 2011 at 11:05  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

I would say the Church abandoned its Hospitallers roots, its Essene Theraputae tradition, its laying on of hands.

Otherwise we could of been leading the way with such healing systems, just as Christ healed the sick.

Churchianity gets bogged down in far too much theology, leaving little room for faith healing.

31 July 2011 at 11:14  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

Well said,YG. And I feel that Psychotherapy has replaced the confessional. I said this recently to a friend of mine who is a Psycotherapist, but since he doesn't believe in God, he wasn't amused with the comparison.

31 July 2011 at 11:19  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Your Grace, healing through prayer may lead to a miracle, and we can't have that, can we?

There seems to be a sort of inverted snobbery abroad where religion is concerned. For example, if His Holiness the Dalai Lama were to endorse the practices of Sukhdev Singh there would be sighs of agreement from 'progressive' opinion.

On the other hand if His Holiness the Pope, or even our own Archbishop Rowan, were to endorse study into 'energy flow imbalances' there would be hoots of derision from the same 'progressives'.

31 July 2011 at 11:20  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

Your Gace said "But if there is growing evidence that ‘spiritual healing’ can be effective, why aren’t we dedicating £205,000 to a research project into the efficacy of prayer and scriptural direction?" Amen to that. And why can political leaders not stand up and ask the poeple to pray for a particular intention such as the abolition of the Blasphemy law in Pakistan? At least it will show us who the moderate Muslims are - i.e. those who will speak out in support of such a proposal. It is part of orthodox Christianity to believe in the power of God to heal as evidenced by the miracles of Lourdes and Fatima etc plus those that truly occur to individual Christian believers of all denominations. The evidence is very strong and even scientific we may say. However in the modern day we have an idelogy that says Christian miracles are mumbo jumbo but as Your Grace has pointed out esoteric eastern religions do not get the same disdain. Is there an agenda in our society by those in influential positions to destroy Christianity?

31 July 2011 at 11:44  
Blogger Albert said...

And when it is established (as it surely would be) that living a life of prayer and meditation in sacrificial obedience to the Creator brings mental and physical benefit as well as spiritual enlightenment, perhaps the state would stop persecuting those doctors and nurses who have always known so.

Interesting thought. If true, then it would seem to follow that unbelievers cost the NHS and the economy more than believers.

If that were found to be true, we should perhaps consider whether unbelieving parents are harming their children by not bringing them up with a faith. Non-faith education should be abandoned as cruel and uneconomic, and the non-religious should be taxed higher because of the greater strain they place on the economy.

I'm quite certain that if the opposite were found to be true, secularists would advance such an argument - at least in support of closing faith schools and the claim that giving your child a religion is a form of abuse (or have they done that already - only without considering any evidence?).

31 July 2011 at 11:46  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Mathew 8:5 - 13 the story of the Centurians servant is a true miracle of Faith healing.

That Christ recognised such a Faith not found in Israel is food for thought.

Judeo-Christianity places far too much faith in the importance of Israel, without ever considering the Faith this heathen had in Christ.

31 July 2011 at 11:51  
Anonymous berserker-nkl said...

Actually, a lot of catholic traditions were incorporated into the Voodoo rituals, like prayer and baptism.

Maybe we should all get a cursed voodoo doll and send them to our leaders. Me, I would despatch one straightaway to the BBC!

31 July 2011 at 12:13  
Anonymous obreption said...

It's not mumbo jumbo. If it's voodoo, it's got to be much ado about gumbo.

This discussion really is a storm in a teacup when one considers alternative and complementary therapies, and the medicalisation of every ailment yet unknown by some quacks in order to get funding for pseudo-research. At a time when the NHS is critically short of money, there is clearly some merit in the lowering of life expectancy by lengthening the queues for treatment and the rationing or stopping of treatments which are effective in an aim to meet the financial year targets - even though the long term costs to society will far out weigh any short term penny pinching.

Why should the NHS have to fund Christian prayer in any case? Surely Christians have the wherewithal and the time to reflect on 'the poor are always with us', while they wring their hands and gnash their Hungarian dentistry.

Anyway, voodoo you think you are! And a happy Lammas whereever you are.

31 July 2011 at 12:18  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

Come, come, Your Grace, surely you recognise that Christian Prayer is purely a form of indoctrination and the imposition of a "majority culture" upon a minority? Or is it now a minority culture that the majority reject in the rush to embrace anything and everything from "crystal power" to Rastafarian drug taking?

Frankly, if the British Public had any backbone at all the NHS bosses who authorised this and those who have disciplined doctors and nurses for offering their Christian beliefs, should be sacked, made to repay the money and barred from public office or payroll for life.

31 July 2011 at 12:31  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

As I recall, the Templeton Foundation spent $2.4M (I think) a few years ago testing out the power of prayer. Not surprisingly, it found it had no effect whatsoever ... unless the person knew they were being prayed for in which they tended to fare worse! Obviously on the basis on that, doctors and nurses should be discouraged from telling patients that they will pray for them. :)

31 July 2011 at 12:58  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Also, don't we spend about £30M a year on hospital chaplains and the like? They're the ones who should be doing the praying and counselling on request, surely? Doctors and nurses are in a role when they're on duty as I am when I go to work. My behaviour is covered by what we call 'business ethics', including outside of work to some extent as it goes, and I can be sacked if I breach them.

31 July 2011 at 13:28  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

Obreprion, I think the point was that Christian healing was dekliberately excluded from funduing whereas other esoteric healings were not.
Gray Monk if prayer is a form of indoctrination what about the miracles which are attested do with very compelling evidence. For example, every Friday between 1905 and 1968 the hands and feet of Padre bled with the marks of Christ. The wounds were very serious lacerations and not minor scratches and recorded on film and video and eye witness accounts of people still living. On Saturday the wounds were completely gone and there was never any infection. If he did it himself the wounds would have taken weeks to heal. What was so special about Fridays? Why did it never happen on a Monday? If you are going to tell me that science will discover an answer in the future you shouldn't accuse others of indoctrination or blind faith.

31 July 2011 at 13:43  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Bred in the bone : 11.14

A fascinating subject, the Philo Therapeutae et al.

And yes, little room for faith, let alone the healing.

31 July 2011 at 14:04  
Anonymous Oswin said...

bluedog @ 11:20

Exactly so; it is, sadly, all a matter of fashion. Christianity appears now to be perceived in the same light as 'tank-tops' and 'formica' - perhaps we need a 'retro' return to a more stylised image? (substitute 'stylised' for 'simple' if preferred.)

31 July 2011 at 14:18  
Anonymous Office of Inspector General said...

The Inspector General welcomes all that alleviates patient suffering, but feels that this particular project could have been introduced as a charitable initiave, saving public money...

31 July 2011 at 14:33  
Anonymous tony b said...

Oreption. My dentist is Hungarian. She is without doubt the best dentist I've ever had, and a very charming lady.

31 July 2011 at 14:39  
Anonymous non mouse said...

So the state moves to outlaw that which divides, for it is ultimately ‘hateful’ or the foundation for ‘extremism’. If so, Your Grace, then I respectfully suggest that the state banish itself.

For our part, we should let it waft away to some Indo-European mountaintop and leave us Britons to unite in healing the damage the state has done.

wv: frater !! Oh, Brother.

31 July 2011 at 15:20  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Psychotherapy has replaced the confessional In some ways, yes, Mr. John in Cheshire. It also costs a good bit in pen(an)ce, I hear.

I also believe it's a dangerous business, unless the therapist is prepared to put into practice the old dictum: "Don't fret too much, you'll make yourself ill."

31 July 2011 at 15:33  
Blogger len said...

As Christianity is pushed back a spiritual vacuum is formed and all sorts of 'isms',cults, and weird religions are rushing in to fill it.

Paganism is gaining centre stage with the cult of 'Mother Earth' and the elevation of 'Environmentalism 'as a religion.With the rejection of God man has turned inward and looks for healing by dabbling with the occult.
The book of Revelation describes Satan's last-day deceptions this way: "He doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do" (Revelation 13:13, 14).
Satan himself will impersonate Christ, healing the diseases of the people. and professing to present a new and more exalted system of religious faith: but at the same time he works as a destroyer leading multitudes to ruin.

31 July 2011 at 15:59  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...


You are referring to the experiment sponsored by the Templeton Foundation, the Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP). It involved six major medical centres, and their published conclusions are as you describe them. I'm a bit puzzled, though, that you, a level-headed analytical chap, would fall either for an allegedly scientic proof or a dis-proof of something as un-quantifiable and un-qualifiable, not to mention religio-politically loaded as the mystery of intercessionary prayer.

In disclosure, I'm a fan of science-based, mainstream medical science and view most things outside of it as ineffective, if not dangerourous snake oil peddling. This is a position I have to keep mum about in general society and even my own community, as everyone lately seems to get exercised over all sorts of nonsense to the point where even a questioning attitude is treated as a deep personal insult. My most recent kerfaffle over a similar issue involved a long-time acquaintance who won't speak to me because I carelessly explained the lack of "organic" foods and wonder herbs at our place as a general house ban on any over-priced, "value-added" marketing quackery. In fairness, though, I must further disclose that yesterday afternoon, at an outdoor Sabbath luncheon on a very hot day I did, admittedly, enjoy the flavour and effects of a locally brewed "organic" beer and did, verily, quaff more than my fair share of the same. But, 'nuff said on that.

Anyway, as much we may respect the analytical and critical attitude towards all extra-ordinary claims, we need to also curb our awe of the mortal, faulty and much too human humans known as scientists. It's not the Muse or the spirit of science that usually fails us, but the hubris, bias and incompetence of its priesthood that brought us such delights as phrenology, eugenics, Marxist "scientific" economics, racial "science," Nazi "medicine," Lysenkoist "evolution," and our most recent scam, Anthropogenic Global Warming, a.k.a., Climate Change.

As you may know, DanJ0, there have been previous studies and experiments on the efficacy of prayer, dating back to the 19th century, and most somehow "proved" that prayer works. Alas, once we look at how those pro-prayer experiments were conducted and who conducted them, we can quickly and fairly dismiss them as exercises in crackpottery. But, that too is the case with the Templeton study, if you examine it objectively. Without going into lengthy details you can explore yourself, critiques have pointed out numerous problems with the limitations of the Templeton study and the impossibilty of conducting a truly unbiased experiment on this subject. One such source you may want to look at is a Harvad Medical School news release (

As a fairly religious fellow and someone who begged people here for prayers on behalf of a distant family member (who is recovering rather "miraculously," btw) I do, of course, intuitively believe in the efficacy of prayer...and would have continued to believe even had the prayers in the case of the unfortanete boy not been answered, G-d forbid. But such things are still in the domain of belief and faith, parts of the divine mysteries and human dealings with the Almighty, and cannot at this time, if ever, be resolved with the limitations of funded research, longitudinal studies and quantitative analysis.

31 July 2011 at 16:16  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Cranmer, you may recall chastising me recently for calling Buddhism and Hinduism demonic inspired 'faiths'. Maybe this was an offensive turn of phrase, however, it seems acceptable on this blog to apply the term to Islam.

I will not repeat what I've said on many occassions about the pagan and, I believe, satanic roots of particular practices coming from the East. Your readers should do some research into Sanskrit, Tantric Buddism, Tantric Hinduism, Chanting and Yoga.

The practice being advocated i.e Reika, springs from a belief system that is oppossed to Christianity. It is neo pagan. It should be seen for what it is and rejected.

31 July 2011 at 16:37  
Blogger English Viking said...


31 July 2011 at 16:47  
Blogger Lakester91 said...

The problem with 'testing' prayer is that it relies on the assumption that God will always answer in the affirmative. It's foolish to attempt to second guess God's will.

31 July 2011 at 16:56  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Unfortunately a lack of theology in our churches has embarassed us by reducing spiritual healing to superstition. And 'leg lengthening'is the latest fad to titilate and amaze the credulous.

31 July 2011 at 16:58  
Anonymous non mouse said...

And then - Chaucer, as ever, provides insight into the (im)mutability of human character, on these issues. Here's a light-handed translation of the 14th-century Physician he describes:

With us there was a "Doctour of Phisik";
In all this world, there was no other like him,
In speaking of medicine and surgery;
For he was instructed in the science of Astrology.
He watched his patient for very many astronomical hours, by his "magyk natureel" [science].
Well could he calculate the planetary positions
Of the talismanic figures in astrology - for his patient;
He knew the cause of every malady,
Whether it were hot, or cold, or moist, or dry;
And the origin of the imbalance; and how it affected the humour [body fluids].
He was a truly perfect practitioner.

When he knew the cause and the root of his illness,
He immediately gave the sick man his remedy.
Fully at the ready, he had his Pharmacists
To send him drugs and syrup mixtures;
For each of them helped the others to profit---
Their friendship had not begun recently.

He knew [...medical lore, based on authorities all the way from Aesculapius--through Hippocrates, to the most modern].
He was very moderate about diet,
For it involved no excess,
But it was extremely nourishing and digestible.

His study was but little on the Bible.

He was all clad in "sangwyn [red] and in pers" [blue]
Lined with taffeta and sendal.
And yet he was careful with money;
He kept what he had gained during the Plague.
For gold in medicine is a cordial [a medicine for the heart].
Therefore, he especially loved gold.(GP 411-44)**

Based on: Chaucer, Geoffrey. "The General Prologue" The Riverside Chaucer. 3rd ed. General Ed. Larry D. Benson. Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1987. 30. Print.[Any errors are mine, not theirs]

31 July 2011 at 17:05  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

non mouse I did enjoy that reading so, they say Culpepper's herbal is the only book that remained in print as long as the Bible.

I love our Heritage :-D

31 July 2011 at 17:26  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...


Asking people to do research into Animist religions with the proviso that they approach their study with your conclusions in mind is hardly cricket, as you chaps would say. In any case, "Satanism," like so much else in the religious sphere, is derivative and synchretistic, borrowing and blending elements and imagery from other beliefs. As long as they are law-abiding citizens, current day Animists, including modern versions of "witches" and "Satanists" deserve as much respect and protection in the civil domain as anyone else. In terms of a theological view, I personally consider them as deluded, just as the overwhelming majority of humanity.

From a historical perspective, "Satanism" seems to have emerged, funnily enough, from the best minds within the leadership of the late mediaeval Church. It began as a fake parody of a cult, demonstrably concocted ny Church theologians from a mish-mash of phantasmagoria in the heat of the battle against remaining pockets of Animists and sectarians, not to mention in the lucrative pursuit of the wealth hoarded by the "demonic," but very wealthy Knights Templars and the thousands of propertied, but unprotected widows who, with the help of the best scholars in Christendom, became transformed into malignant "witches." Mind you, I may be a tad biased in my cynical assessment of these theological giants who gave us satanic Templars and flying witches, for when the revenues eventually ran out, they quickly created the plague-spreading, well-poisoning, Devil-worshipping horned, tailed and hoofed Jew and proceded to liberate him of his obviously ill-gained assets.

31 July 2011 at 17:29  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "I'm a bit puzzled, though, that you, a level-headed analytical chap, would fall either for an allegedly scientic proof or a dis-proof of something as un-quantifiable and un-qualifiable, not to mention religio-politically loaded as the mystery of intercessionary prayer."

Saying I fell for it is a bit strong, really. The flaws were fairly widely reported at the time as I remember. As Lakester said, it's built on a rather shaky premise. If the figure was $2.3M then someone is a fool. I remember thinking it was a joke at first but I suppose the Foundation got something out of it even if it were just to get science interested.

All that said, whenever I talk about proof of god's existence (whatever god, really) what I really mean is evidence that something is interested in our world e.g. miracles, real world knowledge through spiritual means, sociological studies into crime rates between more or less religious countries with vaguely similar cultures (such as USA and UK), etc.

31 July 2011 at 18:07  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Avi Barzel, how very true, our ancestors got accused of worshiping the devil in the form of a goat, when the goat represents the unborn self in Vedanta.

Christianity needs a rebirth as Alvin Boyd Kuhn wrote.

31 July 2011 at 18:07  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Bitb @ 17:26. Glad you like it :)
And we can still find Culpepper on a microfilm of Hayes' edition, at least: Culpepper revived : being an almanack for the year of our Blessed Saviours incarnation 1680. I expect there's something up on EEBO, too.

31 July 2011 at 18:44  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...


You're right. I did note, after I penned my comment and re-read your bit, that I jumped to an unfounded conclusion about your take on the study, but reasoned that you would quickly correct me on that. You did and, I contritely stand corrected.

As for the proof of G-d's existence, I cannot fault you or anyone for being unable to offer or accept firm evidence in either direction. I proclaim the Almighty's existense and relationship to humankind while knowing that there is nothing specific and concrete I have ever read or heard, no empirically provable miraculous event I can point to, that would provide us with the satisfying evidentiary data we are speaking of. My position as an active and involved theist is only upheld by traditions, teachings, emotions, intuitions, deductions and faith in the sense of its other meaning; loyalty. I'm not assuming that you are in "search of G-d," but if you were to ever embark on that road, the scientific method we both admire won't be of much, if any, help.


That is an interesting observation which reminds of how little we seem to know about anything. While you and I may have formed different conclusions, I too have wondered about the extent and persistence of proto-Indo-European pool of traditions, many of which have been lost, forgotten, transformed beyond recognition or savagely destroyed by processions of powers. To think that the very language we are now using originates from that same ancient linguistic and cultural cradle offers further morsels for thought.

31 July 2011 at 19:02  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

It may be so, BITB, but so little has been recorded about the lives and contributions of the first Indoeuropean settlers and invaders, and much less about Europe's inhabitants before them, that I despair of anything new and conclusive coming out in my lifetime. Perhaps along with being able to reconstruct the physical evidence from archeology and even from linguistic remnants for words such as cattle, wheel and chariot/cart, the historical linguists might be able to one day map the early europeans' beliefs from similar tid-bits.

As for the need for Christianity's rebirth, I may have a little wish list to contribute if such a plan is in the offing, upon invitation only and as an amicus curiae of sorts, but it's a topic that is best discussed amongst Christians.

31 July 2011 at 19:27  
Anonymous Bede said...

It is indeed strange that in the local press, various news sheets, public libraries and even tourist information offices one can find many details of various Buddhist meditation courses at numerous centres throughout the country.

There is however, never a word about Christian meditation, which is not a new-fangled intoduction derived from Eastern religions, but an age-old Christian tradition.

John Cassian, in his 9th & 10th Conferences, wrote from first hand experience about the meditation practised by the desert monks of the early Church, and their use of a mantra. This practice spread throughout the Greek speaking Church (and later the Russian) - and is still widely used there. It was introduced into Western monasticism by St Benedict. It is found in the 'Cloud of Unknowing' in the 14th century.

Though the use of meditation declined in the West in recent centuries, it is now being re-discovered, and Christian meditation - the heart of the contemplative life - is now spreading in many countries. But there are far too many churches and church-goers, not to mention the general public, who know nothing at all about it, and think it is a non-Christian Eastern practice.

31 July 2011 at 19:37  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...


Further thoughts on the goat motif: We might never know whether it predates the domestication of the wild goat, in the Zagros Mountains region I think, how it may have been transferred and how long it took, but the comparatively late Vedic sources may not be of much help to us in determining the European version. While certainly it's better to have some source references than none, the Vedantas may only reflect a partial version of a proto-Indoeuropean mythology, or one developed in isolation only by the Asian branch of the IE migrants.

31 July 2011 at 19:40  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...


In your first post you mentioned hospital chaplains. Some have strayed far from anything resembling Christianity.

A lady who frequently visits the sick of her Church's congregation told me this. One of her friends was visited in hospital by a supposedly C of E Chaplain who produced some crystals "to help us channel our prayers".

The chaplain was sent away with a flea in his ear. The patient's (and my friend's) congregation is determinedly scriptural and evangelical and the patient found such a pagan practice revolting - but it was offered by a man with a bishop's licence, wearing a dog collar. So not all clergy are Christians.

The lady, who had this account from a member of her congregation, is a friend of over 25 years and not given to accepting stories easily, nor to passing them on lightly without having searched out the truth beforehand.

31 July 2011 at 19:47  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Mr Bede,

Meditation, some of my friends argue, is also found in Jewish traditions, although I must admit little knowledge on that subject and, rightly or wrongly, little interest as well. The latter is not so much a reflection on my prejudices as a comment on my reluctance to engage in a practice bound to get me into a world of trouble with my wife, who already thinks I spend too much time staring into space and allegedly thinking Great Thoughts.

But your point is well taken; such revivals of positive achievments in your traditions, coupled with more confident and assertive attitudes, would certainly be appropriate and just.

31 July 2011 at 19:50  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

I agree with Danjo on insisting on convincing proof i.e. "miracles, real world knowledge through spiritual means". If you look at my earlier contribution I gave details of the marks of Christ appearing on the hands and feet of Padre Pio from 1905 to 1968 ONLY ON A FRIDAY. With regard to other spiritual evidence there's prophecy and in 1917, 3 illiterate peasant children aged 7, 8 and 10 predicted the end of the First World War, the coming of the second and the errors of Russia being spread througout the world. They also prophesied IN ADVANCE that a great miracle would happen on October 17th and it too happened. Because people were told in advance it was going to happen 70,000 were there to scoff but they all ended up in terror on their knees thinking the end of the world had come when they observed the 'Miracle of the Sun'. Look it up on Google.

31 July 2011 at 19:50  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...


'Satanism' is different to satanic. Please do some research on the origins of early Hindu sects and their 'sacred' texts. You may find it illuminating to learn the degree of influence these have had on our own culture. Some scholars believe early Buddhist missionariee influenced the Driuds.

It is beyond question this belief system has influenced the West since the 19th century and this has increased notably since the 1960's. I would argue it has weakened Christianity very considerably with its ideas and concepts and popularity

What is your view on Jewish Cabalism?

31 July 2011 at 20:03  
Blogger English Viking said...


You are, for once, correct, concerning the idolatry of buddhism, and other pertaining shite.

The Lord thy God is one God.

EVERYTHING else is idolatry.

31 July 2011 at 20:38  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Avi Barzel, perhaps the mediteranian version could be found in Jason and the Argonauts search for the Golden fleece, as the British have a connection with Trojan history.

The vedic aja goat coming across in the name of the Aegean sea.

We tend to neglect maritime aspects and contact with Ceylon by the Portugese, who could have known about India since Portugals pre-Romanised Gallic period or ealier.

There is a question as to whether the punic wars are recorded in the vedas but known as the pani.

It would depend on whether the transmission was east to west or west to east, I guess.

31 July 2011 at 20:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"If you look at my earlier contribution I gave details of the marks of Christ appearing on the hands and feet of Padre Pio from 1905 to 1968 ONLY ON A FRIDAY."

It's an intriguing thing. What I'd personally like to see is an amputee restored. Now that would be something. But amputees never seem to be good enough. :(

31 July 2011 at 20:46  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

English Viking said...
You are, for once, correct, concerning the idolatry of buddhism, and other pertaining shite."

The problem with this belief system is that whilst in is 'shite' it is actually very dangerous.

Like Trojan Horse it has crept into so much of modern western culture and is corrupting it from within. Islam may or may not be an impending physical threat, we differ on the extent of this, but Eastern 'mysticism' is with us already and has made great advances.

The 'war' has three fronts - Mysticism, Islam and Secularism.

31 July 2011 at 20:56  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...


I concede ignorance on this subject. This may sound to you like an evasion, but given my current sort of religious observance, I cannot any londer undertake close studies of other religions. By getting drawn into such a discussion I've probably already strayed out of my reservation as it is. The reason usually given for such a stricture is that Torah study should take precedence and occupy every spare moment available for learning. The unarticulated rule also is, that ignoramuses such as I could easily defame the Almighty, our scriptures and our people and risk becoming enticed by heresies and Pagan worship. Of course, there are Jewish scholars of high calibre who do delve into philosophies of other beliefs, but I'm far from being counted among them.

As for kabalah, I guess this is where I get my pay-back for the other strictures. If I'm incomptent and vulnerable in non-Jewish philosophies, ditto for the obscure and elitist field of kabalah, which is starting to make a come-back in some Jewish circles. I joyfully refuse to study it and feel free to declare my overall distaste for it, which is perfectly in tune with my rationalist..."Maimonidean," I'd like to think....approach to religious beliefs.

31 July 2011 at 20:58  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Thanks for putting that so well, Mr. Barzel @ 19:40.
On the transmission of
I-E beliefs(19:27), I'd like to add that British Celtic Studies offer(s) rewarding insights- as indeed do Old English Language and Literature. While the I-Es did not have literacy as we know it, their oral traditions were guarded by the sages of their times: Druids and Scops ---much as was, presumably, pre-literate Jewish tradition.

Certainly, only some of the beliefs came to us later, and they did so through Christian scribes. However, surely it is possible that the scribes were aware of preserving something that would otherwise be lost - even if it served only by way of negative comparison? They were themselves Celts and Anglo-Saxons and Vikings; and there is no doubt that similar scribes deliberately preserved the truly great Insular literary traditions: throughout the Norman hegemony.

I think interesting work emerges when manuscripts are studied in parallel with texts of every kind. Some may analyze Sturluson, for example, in light of carved stones from 8th/9th century Britain. In his Blood of the Isles, Bryan Sykes exemplifies other interdisciplinary applications.

And there's always the Arthurian tradition to consider--bearing in mind that Merlin can be interpreted as a Celtic figure of Antichrist!

Not that I know anything about euroland, of course. I'm only interested in I-E insofar as it relates (or not) to Britain, to which our ancestors brought some part of it. Our tradition has subsequently been to incorporate foreign influence by adapting it to suit ourselves. The wisdom of Gregory the Great (and Augustine; and Theodore and Hadrian and Benedict Biscop) lay in recognising that necessity!

Without that wisdom, our Darkest Age is being forced upon us.

31 July 2011 at 21:00  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

English Viking. in defence of the Rig Veda, the word Rig, meaning to bind, has Scandanaivian origins and a bearing on the Rigging of a ship.

Its worthy of note, if just for a fuller understanding of your ancient navigational histories.

31 July 2011 at 21:10  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Ah, but here Mr BITB, I must decline further inquiry for the reasons I gave to Mr Dodo. In any case, evrything I can speculate about is old stuff, based on things I studied, rather sloppily, over a decade ago.

31 July 2011 at 21:10  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

Danjo said, "It's an intriguing thing. What I'd personally like to see is an amputee restored. Now that would be something. But amputees never seem to be good enough".

Here is a link to wikipedia about the healing of an amputee: Wikipedia gives the outline of the event which took place around 1640 and mentions a book which has been written about the subject, detailing all the evidence. Wikipedia also gives the comments of a skeptic who has his own version of events but he is speculating after a distance of over 300 years. People can decide for themselves but the book might be a good read. I think the assertion that we don't accept miracles unless they are of amputees is over demanding. If God wants to perform miracles we shouldn't move the goalposts to make it more difficult to fulfill. The miracles of the marks of Christ only occurring on a Friday should at least make us think that they refer to the crucification of Jesus and give credibility to the message such persons give.

31 July 2011 at 21:41  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Thank you Mr/Ms Non Mouse. While I'm glad to have somehow put some things well, I blush at the thought of being confused with someone with expertise in such matters. I cannot match your knowledge of your history and ease in discussing sources and documents on the murky, pre-literate European and British traditions.

Is there a connection between pre-literate Hebrew and I-E traditions? Possibly; our Patriarchs and Matriarchs emerged from a society which were a melting pot of Indoeuropean and Hamito-Semitic cultures among others.

I wish I knew about all this as much as an affable British relative of mine, an Anglican and a well-respected retired professor, but for now I'll just enjoy reading your and others' treatment of these interesting subjects. In doing so I see that many here seek a way to restore their cultural and national integrity and to revive and renew noble traditions. I wish everyone "fair winds" and hope that justified pride will be tempered with kindness and humility and rightous assertion with generosity and tolerance.

31 July 2011 at 21:42  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

I respect that Avi.

I know a lot of Christians who take the same view.

I dabble, but more in an interest of a fuller history of our people.

Martin Doutre wrote an excellent book in defence of a Celto-Viking New Zealand, in responce to the Labour Governments excessive bias toward the Maori. History and rights are inseperable in these multicultural times.

31 July 2011 at 21:59  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Avi said ...
" ... our Patriarchs and Matriarchs emerged from a society which were a melting pot of Indoeuropean and Hamito-Semitic cultures among others."

Your forebearers did not 'emerge' they were specifically chosen by God to be a seperate and Holy people from whom the Messiah would come. You were set apart from the Indo -Eurpoean and Hamito-Semetic cultures.

You also said ...
" ... many here seek a way to restore their cultural and national integrity and to revive and renew noble traditions."

The 'noble traditions', if they be pre-Christian paganism, is not the way to restore cultuaral and national integrity. There is nothing noble about this. It leads in the opposite direction - a 'left' fork in the road.

31 July 2011 at 22:16  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Well, its been an intersting thread, all in all, I believe inner traditions are where we find common ground and alternative therapies are not all bad.

Faith as small as a mustard seed can uproot a mulberry tree.

31 July 2011 at 22:50  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Thank you, BITB, for your understanding.

Indeed, you're right, Dodo, my ancestors came to be chosen by the Almighty, but in all appearances they did emerge under their own steam as ethical Monotheists, for which accomplishment they were singled out and blessed. As for the noble traditions of yours and your compatriots, evidently there will be disagreements on determining which ones to rely on and I guess here's where the humility and tolerance bit will come in handy.

Alas, I must regretfully leave this board for now and return to work and its realities. Thank you all for the pleasant discussions. Finally, the truck ahead of me is about to be checked now by Windsor border customs. I just fussed over couplings and connections, tire inflation and air brake pressure and must now get my paperwork together and recalibrate my head to make sure that I don't start mumbling about my deep thoughts on proto-Indo-European root words, Norse sagas and other comparative religion topics to a jaundice-eyed customs and immigration officer who night require me then to pee in a lab vial whilst being watched. After this "fast-tracked" (as they call it) customs check is over, me and my load of household goods will be finally freed to roar on ahead to Denver, a mere 1,334 miles according to my GPS. Many rest stops along the way, but this land of plenty is rather poor in free wireless connections. No matter, I love driving, the first ever occupation to give me so much pleasure and a feeling of real accomplishment; I wish I had realized this much earlier in life, instead of only three years ago!

31 July 2011 at 23:02  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Gosh, Mr. Barzel. I've heard good things about Denver, so I best wishes for your sojourn there!

31 July 2011 at 23:12  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Thank you, non mpose, but I wont get to see much of denver tooling around, trying to find the loading dock in one of these clunky oxen:

Still waiting for the great US of A to open up its gates to me. Any day now.

31 July 2011 at 23:29  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Thank you non mouse. would love to see Denver too, but I'll arrive at night, if my trip plan works out and wont see much while tooling around in search of the loading docs with a great old ox like this one (except that mine's a pukey yellowish green):

Still waiting for customs. any day now.

31 July 2011 at 23:34  
Anonymous Avi Barzel said...

Still waiting to be checked and I see I can't get the link right. Anyone with passions for trucks/lorries, just look up an image of a recent Peterbilt 18-wheeler in the ugliest yellow you can find. Sorry guys, no offense intended, but your cab-over-engine and under-powered Euro versions of trucks look like chopped-up buses. There, how;s that for good old jingoism! ok, they're wrapping up ahead, 'til later!

31 July 2011 at 23:51  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Avi said ...
"my ancestors came to be chosen by the Almighty, but in all appearances they did emerge under their own steam as ethical Monotheists, for which accomplishment they were singled out and blessed."

Not according to your Holy Scripture as I read it. Is this how Judiaism understands the selection of Abraham to be the father of God's chosen race? It was meritorious?

1 August 2011 at 00:15  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Your grace chooses an interesting subject , alas the £205k you question should be stacked aside the £20mn blown on computer systems that dont work.

It has always puzzled me the eden story when refering to the other tree ,the tree of life which is guarded by a blazing sword.

DNA sequencing has opened a whole new world of insights and cures into disease and the new stem cell research (which no longer uses feotus cells) may enable some repairs we never thought possible.

Alas people still die an earthly death and the bible says this will be so until revelations is fullfiled , that says to me our spiritual life is still important.

A spiritual repair of person that cures a medical condition , i believe does exist , we live however in world where the science of medicene seems to be what most people believe in, add in the fraudsters who take money off gullable vunerable people , and the spiritual nature of healing has perhaps been on the back burner for some time , out of embarrasment.

The persecution of christians in particular who dare even to moot , offering a prayer , shows how endemic the current thinking is.
The state of the mind in effecting healing is pretty undisputed , but add in or suggest a spiritual dimension and , well your not much better thought of than a red top hacker.

Ministering to the dying is not thought unreasonable , but only in the same way as ones last dinner may be requested on death row. I am sure there are christian doctors/nurses who are in there vocation , I perhaps owe some thanks to one I was treated by when a teenager.

Just on side note tonights songs of praise was wonderful.It celebrates 50yrs soon , not always been my cup of tea, but at least labour didnt get round to banning it , even if christmas was to be down graded .

1 August 2011 at 00:18  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with the gist of the article, but feel you are too dismissive of the need for ministers to be able to offer counselling and mentoring at the beginning of the blog. Sometimes people need to be listened to and would experience more healing through comfort and a listening ear than by being told they are going to Hell if they don't subscribe to a rigid set of doctrines.

(And I speak as a theologian who learnt both Greek and Hebrew at university.)

1 August 2011 at 00:24  
Anonymous Atlas shrugged said...

.....perhaps the state would stop persecuting those doctors and nurses who have always known so.

This one small piece of the jigsaw does not give the picture, however many of them, does start to do so.

It should be clear to those paying any real attention that there is a clear and unmistakable agenda at play to radically and permanently change society.

To achieve this our ruling elites have set plans in motion at all levels to first seriously undermine, and then utterly destroy society as we have become to know it.

For as every mason knows, to build a new temple on the grounds of the old, the later must be first demolished. Although the intended structure can be delineated into a draft or plan many years before the final demolition takes place.

Indeed it would be most wise to do so.

Therefore you can be absolutely assured that the establishment has a fairly good idea as to exactly what they intend to replace the old temple with.

Which is, as your Grace correctly observes is something much closer to traditional paganism then even The Roman Catholic, or Anglican Churches.

For it is a truism that a people who believe in nothing, will inevitably end up believing in anything they are instructed or forced to believe in.

Authoritarian corporatist, socialism for example, or indeed anything you can imagine in your wildest nightmares, but traditional Christianity.

Some used to call this sort of thing communism, some fascism, others collective insanity.

The truth is it is all of these things put together, with the few nice bits carefully taken out.

1 August 2011 at 01:03  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

dutchlionfrans1953 said...
"Psychiatry is probably the single most destructive force that has affected the society within the last fifty years. Thomas Szasz, M.D. 1993."

Something of an overstatement! There are Christian pychiatrists, psychologists and counsellors who help people without undermining their faith. A completer reliance on these professionals would, of course, be an abandonment of faith.

'Sickness of the soul', widespread nowadays, cannot be helped by secular means. An illness or disturbance of the mind can. I appreciate there is often a fine line between the two.

1 August 2011 at 01:14  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Dutchtlionfrans1953 .
Thats a tricky question , although it does ring true when you consider that some markets are created for products paticulary in physcharitry where demand can be more mind manipulated.

Some medical science is genuinely breakthrough stuff and you could say god may have been in the study methods and analysis .

it is interesting to note that more people die early of corrupt governments , and how we all would wish there were less of those.

As for physcology itself being anti christian , i see you can apply the underlying principal that sin is in or has happened to a patient . i have read some books on christian approaches to physcology , unfortunately I cannot find the book in my library just now , but there are some christians who approach physcology with unbiased scientific analysis , but wish to understand the scio factors behind what physcology is trying to claim supremecy over , they are useually cautious over claims, but i definietly believe the christian medical people can get better effects longer term and its more than empathy , they often appear to have a very uncomplicated faith as well in what I have seen.

marketing and physcology are related subjects , so it is somthing of stumbling bloc when trying to get pure medical questions discussed , the big compnaies have no wish to invest millions in it , do they .

1 August 2011 at 02:02  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Psychiatrists can be very good doctors indeed. And their services are invaluable in combatting the forces that conspire against the stability and confidence of some unfortunates. In that context, I never forget the deconstructionists' careful study of psychology and their fascination with fragmentation, indeed with schizophrenia.

My comment above concerned less qualified people, who may (unintentionally, even unknowingly) encourage people to dwell too much on the wrong things. I fear that some meditation techniques could have the same effect. One has only to read medieval "affective piety" texts to understand how ill-advised techniques could lead to hallucination(especially if, as nowadays, it were practiced by drug-takers).

While acknowledging that God, in His Mysterious Way, might channel His insights in the right direction via meditation, I think we need to be guard carefully
against human misuse of the same channels. Doubtless there are true Visionaries; but the line between a Vision and an hallucination is necessarily fine.

My concern arises because I've seen two cases where inept therapy has led people to suicide. In the last case, the (very religious)woman was a nurse who should have known better, and who refused herself access to an excellent psychiatrist.

1 August 2011 at 02:11  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Sorry to post again- but, in the interests of clarity: that's "to guard carefully."

And I meant to contrast deconstructionists and psychiatrists. The doctors seek to heal and make whole; the theorists are concerned with the opposite-the
techniques involved in fracturing things.

1 August 2011 at 02:19  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

I read a book years ago entitled "Psychology as Religion" by Paul Vitz who was a prefoeesor of psychology at an American University (New York I think). His basic claim was that psychology was unproved and unscientific and that its acceptance is based on faith and not on scientifically proved evidence.

1 August 2011 at 04:30  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

Good article and reference Dutchlionfrans1953. It ties in with the promotion of the Materialist philosophy and the denial of responsibility for our actions in western societies. Harris, expresses this in his book 'The End of Faith' said: "It seems true enough to say that the men and women on death row either have bad genes, bad parents, bad ideas or bad luck. Which of these quantities are they responsible for?" I have written against this idea and also against other heresies incuding the unscientific Theory of Evolution in my book 'The End of Heresy'. It is truly amazing that well educated people can believe so strongly that denying personnel responsibility can be healthy for society. However they have no problem castigating religion which overall with obvous exceptions due to traitors has had a beneficial effect. When I was at college I remember the work of Margaret Mead the anthropologist being lauded and her contention that the people of the Soth Sea islands lived in a sexual paradise free of all sexual taboos. Later study completely refuted her work and it turned out that she ignored all evidence which did not support her thesis and picked-up on those which did.

1 August 2011 at 04:47  
Anonymous Paul McKechnie said...

I'm in favour of biblical languages as part of education; but if you believe that this particular problem wouldn't exist if the clergy knew more Greek and Hebrew, you'll believe anything

1 August 2011 at 06:33  
Anonymous Greg Tingey said...

Actually, it's ALL bollocks.
Physical diseases have physical cuses.
There should be NO MONEY AT ALL spent on witch-doctoring.
And that includes about 95% of "Psychiatry" while we're at it!

1 August 2011 at 08:00  
Anonymous Jack Flash said...

IMO It's interesting to note that much of humanity will either reject Jesus Christ outright, or try to accomodate him in their own way to their various beliefs or religions.
Even the church has in many cases opted for religious ritual and vain tradition instead of the power that was originally bestowed on it by its founder, and until it stands again for Jesus' unique position as the only way for sinful man to be reconciled with a righteous God, it will not be enabled to perform the works that are its rightful inheritance.
Until this happens, humanity will fall prey to every form of deception and paganism that the devil will provide, and pay for the privilege.


1 August 2011 at 14:04  
Anonymous Oswin said...

non mouse @ 02:11

You have it exactly.

1 August 2011 at 16:25  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Treating the symptoms and not the cause, thats the real quackery.

1 August 2011 at 18:46  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Jack Flash said...

Ya-de-da-de-dah .... Ya-de-da-de-dah .... Ya-de-da-de-dah .....


1 August 2011 at 22:42  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why does the guy in the photo look like Bin Laden?

Am I conditioned now to see the face of a terrorist in anyone with a beard and headress?

1 August 2011 at 23:18  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo is continuing to surprise, with the fact that he speaks some truth.

In the words of Catherine Tate: What a load of old shite.

This bollox has no more credence than Jediism, or Jim Jonesism, or David Koreshism.

Dirty rag-heads, with their dirty beliefs, should be shown the door at the earliest available opportunity.

2 August 2011 at 01:02  
Blogger Peter said...

As someone who has actually worked in several hospitals – mainly cancer/palliative care – I have not come across examples of the NHS clamping down on prayer (indeed the reverse). Of course there was the case of the nurse who felt she MUST have a trinket to show her faith (if only actions and deeds – like turning the other cheek – were given the same emphasis by these professional martyrs): it is interesting what was said at her tribunal:

‘A number of unsubstantiated claims were made during the tribunal and we are satisfied that these have been shown to be completely without foundation. Sensible and sensitive solutions were offered to Mrs Chaplin. It is regrettable that her uncompromising stance and the involvement of parties external to the Trust [Right Wing Christian organisations] determined to play out the case in the media, may have deflected her from agreeing one of these solutions.’

Of course the NHS (the taxpayer) pays the salaries of hundreds of hospital chaplains - £32 MILLION a year (see: Are their prayers affective? Are people healed? No – they are there to provide support. Support the NHS is content to fund, but no we must have a moan that a man of colour, with a turban is somehow an affront to Christianity (or a certain reactionary Right of centre flavour of it, at anyrate).

A little bit more of Matt 5:9 might further the Gospel, as opposed to so much that is salacious, inflammatory and on occasion just lies – as seems the wont at present from the Christian Right. Whatever, I detect a good deal of whinging and the inverted pride that comes from victimhood. See, etc. which sums up my thinking on a good deal of these whining stories about Christians craving honour and respect and social power... I know the words of Jesus have never been something many Christians of a certain flavour take much heed of, but He does tells us not to crave honour, respect, social position – tho’ He also tells us to turn the other cheek and demonstrate love and compassion for our enemies - and certainly NOT to sue them or embark upon legal cases (see Matt 5: 38-48). Perhaps it is time to dwell on the meaning of these injunctions instead of inciting factionalism and spreading discord and hatred?


2 August 2011 at 04:05  
Anonymous Jack Flash said...

Thanks, just the response I expected from a "religious" follower like youself.
Now pop off to confession
like a good bird!.


2 August 2011 at 14:46  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Jack Flash

At least I've got more faith in the capacity of humanity to be good than you appear to have.

God implants His Law and Love in everyone's heart. Who can say how that will be expressed according to God's Divine Will?

It's called the Sacrament of Reconciliation these days. And a wonderful source of Grace it is too.

2 August 2011 at 23:55  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, What planet are you on?

3 August 2011 at 08:01  
Anonymous Jack Flash said...

If you have an honest objection or query to my original posting I will happily clarify it for you.
But if you persist in being rude and infantile, I will treat you as such.


3 August 2011 at 09:33  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Jack Flash

Just reacting to your defeatist perspective on the prospects for our society.

Perhaps you could clarify what you mean by the term "religious" and why you appear to use it a derogatory sense.

3 August 2011 at 14:17  
Blogger len said...


Keep it up and the whole of the UK will go secular. If I though I was going to spend Eternity with you I might consider it myself.

3 August 2011 at 22:54  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...


Some 'secular' people have more love in their heart than you and other professing Christians. Now that cannot be right, can it? And I don't just mean the warm, cuddly socialists.

4 August 2011 at 01:03  
Blogger len said...

I actually have more respect for most secular people than the 'pharisee type' of Christian as yourself

You have a vicious streak which enjoys taunting and trying to 'bring people down'.Look through the posts if you don`t believe me.

You have exposed yourself for what you actually are, a loveless Pharisee, the only people Jesus condemned.

At least you are 'out now' and we can all deal with you accordingly.

Bless you.

4 August 2011 at 07:58  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

I'm "out" against people such as you len, most certainly.

So far as "loveless" goes, do read your own posts and the cold and uncompromising picture of Justice and sin you project.

At least I know what I believe and accept the whole of Scripture as authentic and don't fashion Christ's message according to my own outlook and needs.

4 August 2011 at 11:25  
Blogger len said...

I believe you to be a troll and who`s sole purpose is to disrupt threads with your meaningless accusations and refusal to accept the facts or give reasoned answers.
Your ploy of refusing to accept answers to questions you have asked is childlike.
Your theology is a defunct as the Dodo and about as much use. Your inane questioning and your refusal to accept any answers betrays your true intentions.

I will not respond further .

I thank his Grace for his forbearance.

4 August 2011 at 13:24  
Anonymous Jack Flash said...

My view of 'religous' is a person who blindly follows a faith, but thinks that, for example attending church makes him/her a christian. At the cross their were many who claimed to be religous, paragons of virtue, priests and scribes etc, they stood and taunted Jesus.
There were others who knew who Jesus was and wept, because the final act of redemption, the ressurection was yet to come. When they would shout for joy and preach the gospel throughout the civilised world. With a living Lord and saviour instead of a dead religion that had the appearance of religion but no power to save.
All must decide which camp they are in.
My old pastor used to say "If it hurts, you've got a problem." I hope that what I write stings some 'religous' people out of their slumber and breathes new life into dry bones. If so then my efforts have been success.


4 August 2011 at 14:22  
Anonymous Jack Flash said...

Should be religious/ religion.
More haste less speed!.


4 August 2011 at 14:24  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Jack Flash

If you really think the term "religious", as you understand it, applies to Roman Catholics then you are revealing simple prejudice against this Church and its doctrines.

4 August 2011 at 21:11  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...


Bye, bye.

4 August 2011 at 21:17  
Anonymous Jack Flash said...

You really have a complex don't you?. I have not specified the Roman Catholic, or any other denomination for that matter,
except very loosely the Jewish religous opponents of Jesus as an example.
Please see a shrink about your problem if it's affecting your ability to think clearly. Or perhaps a holiday may relax you and sort you out!.
Case Closed......... Next.


5 August 2011 at 11:30  
Blogger bobbledavidson said...

I think the difference between a study on reiki and the concerned prayers of staff is that people sign up to the study whereas they get 'bothered' by staff. I do find it odd that people are so offended by public displays of Christianity but it doesn't seem to take much these days. There is a difference between having an elected operation/procedure and being offered something when you are not expecting it. Nurses and doctors shouldn't offer prayer in my opinion but that service could be advertised by the NHS for those that want it. Whether atheists would be allowed to refuse that service on grounds of conscience would be for the Court of Human Rights to decide. (Ok, I'm deliberately winding you up there)

In relation to why they should study reiki and not Christian prayer is that reiki has a formula and doesn't (I believe) require any act on the part of the receiver. On the other hand, there is no formula for prayer and there is debate about how much faith is required by the patient etc. For example, you could perform Christian faith healing without ever seeing the patient, with multiple or single 'healers', with or without laying on of hands, praying silently or out loud or in tongues... anything.

I suspect that the NHS is really researching the potential benefits of a psychological phenomenon rather than believing in any one religion or practice. In this regard, reiki with it's degrees and formulas is much more easy to reproduce and study scientifically.

5 August 2011 at 14:30  

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