Sunday, August 14, 2011

David Starkey on Newsnight: "The whites have become black"



There has been a bit of a furore about this Newsnight interview in which Dr David Starkey dares to mention Enoch Powell and refer to 'black culture'. He has since been accused of being 'racist', though others have leapt to his defence.

His Grace will leave it to his intelligent and discerning readers and communicants to make up their own mind on the matter. What he will say, however, is that Dr Starkey is a fool: he is a fool for agreeing to be the token 'right-winger' on a biased BBC programme in which three left-leaning (relatively) intellectual pygmies are pitted against an academic who uses words and adopts a narrative quite alien to the BBC vernacular. This interview/discussion was not convened to anaylse or arrive at truth: it was commissioned to entertain and perpetuate BBC orthodoxy. Dr Starkey was set up to be the jarring dissonance, which he should have foreseen and adapted his speech in order that his truth may have been better received.

For His Grace, he is delighted that there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus. In Christ, the whites have indeed become black. Is it racist of St Paul to suggest that the Gentiles have become ('grafted in' [Romans 11]) Jews?

89 Comments:

Anonymous Cathyby said...

I find it odd that you use Bible verses about inclusion to talk about difference. Blacks have not "become" whites, in the Spirit neither exists, there is no distinction.

Equally in Romans 11 Paul advises Gentiles against regarding themselves superior to the existing branches. All are nourished by the same root.

The problem with Dr David Starkey's words is that the gangsta culture he refers to is not "black culture", any more than skin-heads or punks were "white culture". It's akin to calling Paul's olive tree "wild" because wild shoots are grafted in.

14 August 2011 at 12:07  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

The intellectual pygmies compensate for their limited power of reasoning by having the drive and determination to achieve positions of influence and power in the media and in politics. The failed nation we have become is a testament to their success. As long as the pygmies control the means of propaganda and law-making, our decline will continue. The only political party to challenge the pygmies has been prosecuted, obstructed, attacked and vilified to an extent that should shame all who claim to believe in freedom and democracy.

14 August 2011 at 12:13  
Blogger Cam Ma said...

Maitlis represents the BBC "culture" - which is deaf to facts, truth and rational argument. Throughout the interview she is not listening: she has the BBC script already printed out in front of her.

14 August 2011 at 12:16  
Anonymous Indigo said...

Could I draw to your attention the violence and destruction that hit Woolwich last week? I have looked in vain on the Church Times and Southwark Diocese web sites for any mention of the devastation wrought in Woolwich. Businesses destroyed, one building collapsed into the street after being set on fire, glass on the street, banks boarded up, burned out police car. The local MP has not visited, and the Bishop of Southwark has not visited.

Here are some photos taken by the local councillor for Eltham:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/54672273@N05/sets/72157627277638855/

and his account of the "hidden riot" (hidden by the media)

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/localgovernment/2011/08/woolwich-the-hidden-riot.html

Another set of photos of the damage done last week in Woolwich

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39143991@N03/sets/72157627279431597/

Lastly, amateur film footage of the firing of the Great Harry pub by a handful of black and white youths:

http://www.citizenside.com/embed.swf?file=v/287227.flv&autostart=true&skin=http://www.citizenside.com/skin.swf

(This was shown on Sky but wrongly captioned as, first, Liverpool, and then as Bristol.)

Surely, the ignoring of Woolwich cannot be anything to do with its being the venue (just up the hill) for the Olympics shooting events in 2012?

14 August 2011 at 12:19  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

'Colin' growled from the deletion zone...

Saved you the bother Your Grace, I've intelligently and discerningly deleted it for you.

Enjoy your "deep-rooted" discusion.

14 August 2011 at 12:38  
Anonymous uk Fred said...

I have recently been listening to Alan Watt, on You Tube, and he made the point that many such "discussions" are set up so that the audience will arrive at the conclusion that the programme-makers have already decided is the correct conclusion.

Indeed, he also opined that hard copy is better than electronic copy because it is virtually impossible to change (think Winston Smith in 1984 changing the newspaper records)

It frightens me that Blair's children, as in those who went through secondary school starting in 1997 or later, are unable to think and draw logical conclusions from discussion. Perhaps this is why political correctness became all the rage during thoe years of the Labour Government, so that we would not feel able to utter the words necessary to challenge the 'accepted' views.

If you never hear from me again, you can assume that i have been eliminated for spouting unacceptable opinions.

14 August 2011 at 12:53  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

'Colin' finished....

Root = Vanity.

intelligent and discerning = anti truth delete key victories.

They are one.

14 August 2011 at 13:15  
Blogger Maturecheese said...

I thought Starkey was correct in his views and as usual the truth dare not be spoken. The politically correct Left are in control, it seems, all over Europe and so I pretty much feel we are on the road to Hell. Whenever a common sense solution is offered that incorporates some of the values we used to take for granted, it is quickly slapped down. I really do believe that we have allowed the Liberal/Left/Fabian Elites to destroy all of our institution and so become untouchable.

14 August 2011 at 13:35  
Blogger Nightwatchstate said...

The internet is undermining the established media and soon their political narrative will be dead. Racial egalitarianism is dumber than creationism (All races are different, but must have exactly the same IQ?) and a nasty excuse to hand white homelands over to the criminal trash of the rest of the world.

Starkey very much comes across as the educated man being constantly torn into by the Party Youth and Apparatchiks, and is a very clear message to the country that you're either with them or against them. Infact, I think the BBC may have damaged their own reputation far more than Starkey has by blatantly using him as a pinata to bash with doctrine. They've said it as loudly as they can now: If you point out the obvious that criminal materialism is primarily a black phenomena, you will be hounded and set upon. In their arrogance, they reveal the thoughtcrime, in revealing the thoughtcrime, they reveal they are the oppressors, not hapless right wingers.

The BBC is a relic and the mutts who mouth the party line will be forgotten, while Starkey will go down as another harbinger of the coming reality-adjustment when this stupid equality religion is thrown out.

On a related note:

"A landmark article went online a few days ago in the journal Molecular Psychiatry. The study was prepared by a team of 32 researchers headed by the University of Edinburgh’s Gail Davies and entitled “Genome-wide association studies establish that human intelligence is highly heritable and polygenic.”"

http://www.alternativeright.com/main/blogs/hbd-human-biodiversity/the-bell-curve-triumphant/

14 August 2011 at 14:01  
Anonymous Dreadnaught said...

"set up to be the jarring dissonance"

Wonderful turn of phrase YG. Bravo! Innit.

14 August 2011 at 14:11  
Anonymous Big Kev said...

David Starkey is a sincere person an intellectual giant with a penchant for the truth(researched and informed)

Of course he is going to be labelled as a racist and as an elitist.

You poms are well meaning but all this bleeding heart caper has ended you up in shit creek.

You've brought it on yourselves.Your immigrants have failed to assimilate.Too much diversity in the host culture. What you need is a monoculture,grey
and drab where it is compulsory to all sound look and think the same(egalitarian concept)to survive.

If you give it some thought you
might find you prefer the occasional riot.

14 August 2011 at 14:16  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

Nightwatchstate said

Racial egalitarianism is dumber than creationism...

That sentence should win some kind of award. It neatly encapsulates the inherently non-egalitarian ethic of evolution even as it hands racial egalitarianism to the likes of me. And yet it does so in such a crass and vulgar manner. What do you call it? An "Own Goal?"

All races are different, but must have exactly the same IQ?

It would of course be interesting to see an offer of some scientific connection between racial characteristics and intelligence. Not an inferred connection from group testing, but an actual proposed mechanism that connects intelligence to (say) wider noses and broader lips and darker skin. Perhaps Lysenko has some information on this matter that would be helpful?

...and a nasty excuse to hand white homelands over to the criminal trash of the rest of the world.

What is 'white' btw? Much as some people might not like to admit it, 'black' men and 'white' women make fertile couples that produce fertile offspring. That means 'black' & 'white' are both part of one species, and race becomes a continuum instead of a collection of discrete points. Of course, it is much more ego-gratifying to think of yourself as a higher evolutionary development. Hence the need for a 'white homeland.' It prevents the superior branch from being corrupted by inferior grafts. Those being the 'criminal trash of the rest of the world.' The 'non-white' criminal trash, at least.

What God has joined together, let no man put asunder. If God can bless a marriage with children, and children are unique creations from the hand of God, then who are we to bleat on about the 'race' of the children produced by that relationship?

carl

14 August 2011 at 14:48  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

David Starkey seemed quite toned down when he spoke of 'Black Culture'...

What he should have called it was worthless, greedy, violent, ignorant, base, misogynistic, sinful and primitive. It has no future.

'Black Culture' should be rooted out of the UK, and it's adherents humiliated and punished. The biggest adherent of them all - the BBC

14 August 2011 at 14:50  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

carl jacobs (14 August 2011 14:48)

The negro has a lower IQ, not from a racial issue, but because he clings to proto human behaviour. He lets others, 'Black Culture' for example, do his thinking for him.

You don't develope a higher IQ unless you start to think for yourself...

14 August 2011 at 14:56  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

OIQ

The negro has a lower IQ, not from a racial issue, but because he clings to proto human behaviour.

Wait. Didn't you define black men as 'proto-humans' on a different thread? Some nonsense about seven females escaping from the horn of Africa? How then could a 'proto-human' not cling to 'proto-human' behavior? Can a leopard change its spots by force of will? And please do educate us. What genetic differences exist between 'humans' and 'proto-humans' other than the obvious external characteristics so closely associated with race? The use of the phrase 'proto-human' suggests ontological difference. What is that difference?

He lets others, 'Black Culture' for example, do his thinking for him.

So every black man lets other people "do his thinking for him." This must be one of those ontological differences between 'human' and 'proto-human.' It would seem 'proto-humans' don't think. So if I understand you correctly, you have argued that 'proto-humans' should do by force of will what they are genetically incapable of doing and start thinking.

Gosh, I feel so ... enlightened.

carl

14 August 2011 at 15:25  
Anonymous Greg Tingey said...

More irrational, unfounded anti-BBC hate mail!

WHY?

I find raios 3&$ perfectky acceptable.

And, of course, there isn't a "god" at all, oh, and the "office of the inspector general has just committed a race-hate crime.
Not pleasant.

14 August 2011 at 15:27  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

carl jacobs (14 August 2011 15:25)

It's generalisations I use, I don't have time to write a book on the subject...

The earliest (proto) humans in Africa lived in groups, tribes. I hope you can accept that. The group was everything, all was done communally. Yes there were / are intelligent black people. They supplied the thinking for the group. Proto Human behavior, but it worked at the time - not really suitable in inner city UK though.

Homo Sapien Sapien is God's greatest creation. Can do anything, including LEARNING TO THINK FOR HIMSELF. Difficult to start with, but I managed it from child to man. Forget your broad noses and thick lips - I've given you the main difference between the two races.

The seven females theory, the first women to escape Africa, is not nonsense. Recommend you do some research on that...

14 August 2011 at 16:01  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

As the Black woman says, we have to stop the blame culture and face head on what the real issues are.

The English have no representation.

The English have no Government.

The English have the right to take their streets back.

The English have a right to take their Government back.

The English have a right to representation.

14 August 2011 at 16:04  
Anonymous Gerard Tibercross said...

What was interesting was that (1) David Starkey was somewhat uncharacteristically sloppy in his speech when he referred to "black culture" and (2) every time he tried to put it right by more closely defining to what he was referring he was shouted down.

For the first time in my life I sympathise with Dr Starkey.

14 August 2011 at 16:13  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Greg Tingey (14 August 2011 15:27)

No need to defend my criticism of the BBC. See Mr Gerard Tibercross' post...

14 August 2011 at 16:18  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Ah! if only the blacks and the chavs could be inspired to aspire to the dizzying intellectual heights that Dr Starkey occupies, now that would be something.

“I use rap to teach in schools literary devices and it's wonderful tool” the teacher in the interview said. Well there we have it, no wonder the impressionable white children want to become like their black companions when English lessons are wrapped up with rap. The state education is pandering to the lowest common denominator. This proves Dr Starkey right, pity he couldn't elaborate more on what he was saying. Not a fair interview.


Funny how all the areas of violence and looting were predominantly black. The tribal ethics of “Yeah we knew it was wrong, BUT you gotta do it to survive. The only way you survive is if you steal, you are born to steal to survive” said two young covered black men to Kier Simmons in an ITV Ldn lunchtime news interview.

14 August 2011 at 16:36  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

OIG

It's generalisations I use, I don't have time to write a book on the subject...

Well, certainly someone must have written a book on this subject. You just didn't invent this 'proto-human' concept on your own, did you? Can you give us a reference?

The earliest (proto) humans in Africa lived in groups, tribes. I hope you can accept that.

No, I don't accept that, actually. Have I demonstrated a reversion to proto-human behavior by my inability to think, or am I thinking for myself in the face of all this materialist group think? It's an interesting conundrum. Careful now, because I am most certainly 'white' by your judgment.

The group was everything, all was done communally.

And you know this how? Did you climb into your Tardis and go back to interview them?

Yes there were / are intelligent black people.

Well, I suspect you mean "intelligent for proto-humans."

They supplied the thinking for the group.

More revelation from the Time Lord.

Oog: "Who think for us today?"

Og: "Og not know. Og not think."

Oog: "Why Og can speak then?"

Og: "Og not know. Og ask ... Og not know."

Oig: "Perhaps I can help with that. Note my white and delightsome skin."

Homo Sapien Sapien is God's greatest creation.

Certainly greater that Proto Homo Sapien Sapien. Isn't that what you called it? Prototypes are often created to perform requirements development. I suppose God had some learning to do.

Can do anything, including LEARNING TO THINK FOR HIMSELF.

Well, no, there all kinds of things he can't do. He can't for example lift himself own of his own grave. But it's gratifying to see you admit one must be a Homo Sapien Sapien to learn to think for himself.

I've given you the main difference between the two races.

Which as best I can tell would be:

1. Group think
2. Lower IQ derived from 1.

You still haven't told me what a 'race' is. Or how a 'proto-human' differs genetically from a 'human.' Or how either of your differences attach to genetics. You told me to ignore the obvious external characteristics. So what other genetic differences remain to account for the two different groupings?

carl

14 August 2011 at 16:55  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

Starkey may be an academic but his speciality is history not sociology and his characterization of the debate into black and white is unhelpful. If we can find a correlation between crime and skin colour in this country so what – the correlation does not tell us it is because of the skin colour. We can look at the winner takes all mentality of African leaders but can we connect that with black skin. Even if skin colour does have effect does that mean we need a different method of salvation for black people? Too often a correlation is interpreted to mean an intrinsic connection. We see that with evolution. The similarity between different animals is taken to mean that they were all descended from a common ancestor. It is easy to see the connection but the theory goes beyond the facts and the facts we have, pretty well prove unambiguously that even if evolution occurred, it did not do so by chance. We should be able to criticize black yobs as well as white yobs but Starkey has sidelined the debate and ensured it will be unproductive.

14 August 2011 at 16:56  
Blogger English Viking said...

I can't watch the vid, but I can guess what happens.

The BBC should be shut down, and all the nasty little beeboids made to live in the stinking world they have helped to create.

14 August 2011 at 17:19  
Blogger Wrinkled Weasel said...

Yes, Starkey walked into a trap, but he not stupid is he? He's a narcissist of course, but a clever one and I dare say he simply summed up what a lot of us think. Blacks are to blame for this type of gang culture, as are whites who pretend to be black. For too long this has been swept under the carpet for political reasons.

But the issue is much broader than that. It is an issue of who is in control of the narrative, the left or the right.

Yes, of course the BBC is biased, but it now operates in a semi-hostile political environment. Given the nature of tyranny the BBC will go down shouting its agenda, but it will go down.

We the people have had enough of the lies and semantic mangling and the scapegoating of peole who see violence for what it is.

The sooner violent disorder is met with violence and extreme measures, the better. It is all this (largely ethnic minority) underclass understands.

14 August 2011 at 17:25  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Whites have been adopting the culture of the Black underclass for a couple of decades: rap music, slang, wearing low hanging pants like homosexual prison inmates, etc. We have a suicide wish.

These are not noble goals: there's nothing racist about disparaging them or calling them out.

14 August 2011 at 17:38  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

carl jacobs (14 August 2011 16:55)

You've analysed almost each and every sentance I've typed ! Talk about paying attention at the back - you are a teacher's dream !

Assuming you're not propped up in bed in a care home, with a laptop, glass of water and buzzer to the nurse station - how did you manage to find the time !!

I think the blog site deserves an answer...

14 August 2011 at 17:42  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

carl jacobs (14 August 2011 16:55)

"You still haven't told me what a 'race' is"

I forgot to mention. When I look in the mirror, I don't see Louis Armstrong. Maybe it's because I'm a different race to him...

14 August 2011 at 17:51  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

OIG

I think the blog site deserves an answer...

It could be any of three answers:

1. I could just enjoying exposing the vacuity of stupid racist statements.

2. It could be that I want to publicly disassociate the Christian faith from said stupid racist statements.

3. It could be that my daughter is recovering from surgery and so I have time at the moment.

Take yer pick.

carl

14 August 2011 at 17:51  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

carl jacobs (14 August 2011 17:51)

God created the races, I didn't. What do you call a person who appreciates the differences between the races - an anthropologist. Call me an amateur anthropologist.

'Stupid' racial statements ?? Well, we are all entitled to our opinions - even me.

I do sincerely hope your little girl makes a complete recovery. A worrying and upsetting time for any parent, I can only imagine.

That's it for the Inspector tonight - he's off for a pint...

14 August 2011 at 18:35  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ carl jacobs (14:48)—It would of course be interesting to see an offer of some scientific connection between racial characteristics and intelligence.

When the physical characteristics of the races—including susceptibility to disease and responsiveness to medication—are of genetic origin, is it such a leap to connect race and mental capacity? Without a link between race and intelligence how do we explain the difference in the intellectual and societal achievements of Europe and Africa?

14 August 2011 at 18:36  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

Anonymous said "Whites have been adopting the culture of the Black underclass for a couple of decades". People need culture and we have been relegating our Christian culture to the sidelines for decades thanks in part to the BBC and other media outlets. What do people have to believe in these days? We have been so intent on exposing our children to all beliefs the message is clearly that all beliefs are equally valid. That is not what Christianity teaches

14 August 2011 at 18:40  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

Johnny Rottenborough said "is it such a leap to connect race and mental capacity?" Maybe, maybe not but what are you suggesting as a result if there is a connection. As I asked earlier would it mean a different method of salvation because of intelligence?

14 August 2011 at 18:44  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Shacklefree (18:44)—Being equal in the sight of God doesn’t mean that we are all of equal intelligence. Mozart was writing symphonies at the age of seven, although I do wish he hadn’t bothered.

14 August 2011 at 19:04  
Blogger English Viking said...

Johnny,

Very true. Tchaicovsky is streets ahead. Beethoven knocks old Wolfgang into a cocked hat. He strikes me as an 18th century equivalent to a Spice Girl; churning out shite, with no passion, just for money.
He was at least talented though, which separates him from 99 per cent of todays 'musicians'.

I'm not a scientist. I'm not an anthropologist. I'm not even particularly clever. But I have noticed things during my lifetime.

I have lived with, worked with, laughed with, loved and hated with black people. Some are fine, decent people.

I'm afraid that, in my experience at least, the overwhelming majority are a severe drain on society's resources, not averse to criminality and think the only good thing about the white race is willingness of stupid women to fornicate with them.

They are self-evidently less intelligent than some other races. They have a propensity for violence.

Why is it OK to acknowledge that, generally speaking, the black male is obviously physically superior to his white counterpart, but we cannot acknowledge that they are less intelligent?

They are much better than our sub-continental cousins though. They have been severely affected by centuries of in-breeding and war, justified by their ludicrous religions.

Where is the African Beethoven? Where is the Pakistani/Indian Rembrandt? A Chaucer, Tressel or Orwell? There aren't any. The reason being that these cultures are backward, retarded even.

To deny it is stupid. To think that we can drag these people up to our level, when in actual fact they are dragging us down to theirs, is ridiculous.

NB To any self righteous poster who wishes to call me racist - fire away, I take it as a compliment.

14 August 2011 at 19:34  
Anonymous martin sewell said...

I simply want to record that the US equivalent of David Starkey is probably the intellectual giant Thomas Sowell.

He is super intelligent, readable, ascerbic, right thinking, Conservative - and black. A top man.

14 August 2011 at 20:03  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ English Viking (19:34)—Trenchant as ever. Before Britain became a multicultural disaster zone, ‘trenchant’ was the norm and we were much the better for it. A nation that cannot address its problems for fear of causing offence is finished.

14 August 2011 at 20:06  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

English Viking and Johnny Rottenborough, I don’t know the evidence but I think we can accept that different races have different abilities. For example, the Jews over the centuries appear to be very talented and have contributed to science, art and literature. Some races appear to be less talented but I suggest (without being definite) that racial contributions to civilization involve a partnership with Almighty God. Without that we don’t get true art. This idea is particularly strong in the Orthodox religion and iconography and before you complain we are not talking about worshipping images merely that the creation of beauty is partly God’s talent working through us. Why was it for example that Christian civilization arose out of the almost barbaric societies of the Dark Ages while China at the same time with a much more advanced civilization did not develop nearly as fast. I think when we look at true art and architecture and literature we cannot attribute it all to a talented individual. It seems to me that it involves a divine cooperation which is why in my view certain religions do not produce art. By the way guys, I like Mozart as well as Tchaikovsky etc. Try Haydn too and I would also recommend William Byrd.

14 August 2011 at 20:10  
Blogger English Viking said...

Johnny,

I say it with sadness, but the forces that are arrayed against us are so massive that we cannot possibly win.

Probably best to go down fighting, with clean hands and a pure heart?

14 August 2011 at 20:13  
Blogger English Viking said...

Shacklefree,

Haydn is passable.

For sublime, try Rach 3.

PS It is quite obvious that the Jews are the master-race, and I pray for the day that they finally manage to take over the world.

14 August 2011 at 20:20  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Shacklefree (20:10)—Richard Lynn explains the race difference in IQ by saying that ‘when early humans migrated from Africa into Eurasia they encountered the difficulty of survival during cold winters. This problem was especially severe during the Ice Ages. Plant foods were not available for much of the year and survival required the hunting and dismembering of large animals for food and the ability to make tools, weapons and clothing, to build shelters and make fires. These problems required higher intelligence and exerted selection pressure for enhanced intelligence, particularly on the Orientals.’

I’m in two minds about Byrd. His music doesn’t do a lot for me but I worship his custard.

@ English Viking (20:13)—Failure is not an option.

14 August 2011 at 20:24  
Anonymous Jack Flash said...

David Starkey walked straight into the trap, eyes wide shut. It was so obvious, he's a historian for heavens sake, did he not wonder why he had been chosen?.
The more he huffed and puffed to escape, the deeper he was enmeshed.
Akin to watching a magnificent Wildebeast becoming prey to a pride of Lions, despite the bellowing and thrashing the end was inevitable.
The groups were made up of all colours and classes. To try and shift the blame to one group is in my opinion another example of the type of racism that has bedevilled minorities for decades, i.e the antisemitism displayed over the centuries by those that sought to gain by it.

Jack.

14 August 2011 at 20:25  
Blogger English Viking said...

Johnny,

Sometimes, a man must accept defeat.

How on Earth can we get back to right thinking, when me and thee are branded criminals for daring to speak the truth?

Shacklefree

A right relationship with the Almighty always brings prosperity.

14 August 2011 at 20:34  
Blogger Span Ows said...

EV says "To think that we can drag these people up to our level, when in actual fact they are dragging us down to theirs, is ridiculous."

Exactly right; by sheer coincidence that is also what Socialism tries to do but not in a racial sense more generally (bringing money and equality of outcome into the equation) doomed to failure.

14 August 2011 at 20:53  
Blogger Nightwatchstate said...

Although I have nothing more to contribute to the conversation I would like to offer some unneeded and well deserved moral support to The English Viking, as well as observing that the dignified Cranmer himself has declined to comment on the topic at hand beyond his original article. Perhaps, even online discussion and observation is taboo for anyone of stature.

14 August 2011 at 21:19  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

The great artists,musicians,poets,writers and scientists of western europe are the sum total of all of the minds of western europe,they just came to prominence in particular individuals,but it took all of us to produce them,to create the atmosphere in which they could flourish, which was an homogenous society,but having introduced inferiour races our creativity is now on the decline because our group mind can no longer function as it was intended to.

14 August 2011 at 21:22  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

Johnny, Yes, Byrd's custard's good. Did you not like his Dixit Dominus?

14 August 2011 at 21:22  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

English Viking, Master race is a bit strong. Remember in addition to the great contribution made by Jews to civilization, it was Jews who financed Lenin and Trotsky and set up socialism. Talent can be a two edged sword.

14 August 2011 at 21:31  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Shacklefree (21:22)—My gods are Chopin and Tchaikovsky. No other composers go to the very core of my soul and leave me dazed and helpless. I’m more or less looking forward to Monday’s Prom, a complete Swan Lake with Gergiev and the Mariinsky. I say ‘more or less’ because I expect they’ll do their usual trick of interpolating a danse in Act IV (they call it Act III) that wrecks the tension, which then has to be rebuilt from scratch.

14 August 2011 at 21:43  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

David Starkey was correct - and?

There is but one race divided into ethnic groupings who are different because of natural adaption and culture development. They have different attributes, physical, artistic and mental. A range of talents spread across people, if you will.

Different abilities but equal as people? These exist within and between ethnic groupings and each is capable of its own genius.

So what?

The question is: can we live together and agree on basic values? Is solidarity between different faith and ethnic groups achievable?

From a Christian perspective, given we are all equal in God's eyes, unconditionally, surely, at worse, all we can be is sceptical?

Setting aside the first three Ten Commandments, which I wholly accept, all of us can surely agree on the remaining seven? Even within Christianity we squabble endlessly about the nature of God and His salvation plan. How can we expect to discuss these issues across faith groups?

The problems of 'Black culture' are not attributable to 'racial' and 'tribal' factors. In my opinion, that is racist and wrong. It is a virulant subgroup within the black and white 'underclass'. It has to be tackled as such. Isn't that what David Starkey was trying to say?

The existance of the 'underclass', how this came to be, what sustains it and how it can be positively developed, also needs answering. Sensible political, social and economic solutions need to be found.

"On crime, we believe in personal responsibility and in punishing crime, but also tackling its underlying causes - so, tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime, different from the Labour approach of the past and the Tory policy of today." (Tony Blair 1997)

Remember those fine words? What went wrong? Tony Blair got the causes of crime wrong and made matters worse!

Labour increased the State machine, created more dependency on Government in education, health, social care and welfare, undermined the family in doing so and dimished individual responsibility by creating a rights based approach.

The narrative of the left leaning, socialist inspired world view became dominant in the State and ran its course.

Let's be more conssidered and stop polarising the discussion between "love them" or "shoot them". Stop this nonsense "they're black and we're white" so we're "better".

14 August 2011 at 22:10  
Anonymous Torquemada said...

If the Church of England reunited with Rome, then the morals of England would increase a hundredfold over night.

14 August 2011 at 22:12  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

Torquemada

Why do you feelthe need tomasquarade as a Roman Catholic and misrepresent the Church with provocative comments?

14 August 2011 at 22:26  
Blogger The Worker said...

If Christianity was less divided and stopped emphasising its disagreements, the morals of the world might increase.

14 August 2011 at 22:33  
Blogger English Viking said...

The Bible teaches very clearly that the world is not going to get better; it is getting worse and worse, exponentially so.

No amount of praying, or deck-chair shuffling, will improve it.

Shacklefree,

There are always a few bad apples, but, generally speaking, the Jews have brought massive advantages to mankind, the biggest of which was salvation, from the archetypical Jew, Jesus.

I know my right-wing attitude should encompass a strong dislike for the Jews. I'm afraid it just doesn't.

14 August 2011 at 22:55  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

I do not believe that the Bible teaches that all men are equal.

They may be born that way; it's what happens afterwards that causes all the fun.

PS Spare me Galatians 3. His Grace is wrong in his interpretation of the verse, I just can't be bothered to argue with him on the matter. If anything, it proves the superiority of the free, male Jew.

14 August 2011 at 23:04  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think the issue is that Starkey, when referring to 'black culture', grossly generalised. He needed to make explicit from the offset that he was referring to one section of predominantly black people. It isn't acceptable to make such gross stereotypes of people. If this makes me a sandal-wearing, left-wing, PC liberal then so be it; I'd rather choose to judge people as they are than associate them with certain traits on the basis of their skin colour.

With regards to Rom 11, I don't feel that's relevant here - though it's an interesting angle. Paul's point comes from a distinctive theological story in which access to God and salvation were seen as being extended from just those who were Jewish to those who were Gentiles too. It was within that framework that he was speaking. To speak of 'white people becoming black' is purely based on a particular image of such groups, partly perpetuated by the media, which has no theological grounding.

14 August 2011 at 23:15  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

English Viking

"For you are all the children of God, by faith in Christ Jesus."

The critical verse perhaps ommitted by Archbishop Cranmer.

I was referring to being equal in potential and equal as people created in God's image, whatever ethnic differences and acquired genetic strengths and weaknesses.

Surely you accept this?

14 August 2011 at 23:17  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

Ps

There is no 'Master Race'! There was a 'Chosen People' through which to deliver salvation to all through Jesus Christ.

Surely Christians are now God's Chosen People and it is our duty to spread His message? How it works out in the end, is God's business. Personally, I believe it's too early to give up and anyway, we should KBO regardless.

14 August 2011 at 23:25  
Blogger English Viking said...

Anon 23:15

Fair enough.

Don't come running to me when you get stabbed.

Dodo,

I have already stated that I think men are born equal. God loves black people just the same as white, yellow, red, etc.

I just don't believe that the races are the same, that the black race has historically been a force for good or that Galatians 3 teaches equality. It teaches the exact opposite, in fact.

14 August 2011 at 23:27  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

English Viking

But "races" are products of geography and culture and of course there are differences between people. Historically black people may or may not have been a force for good. This doesn't mean they cannot be in the future.

Galatians, as I read it, teaches equality once faith in Christ is accepted, regardless of distinctions in ethnic group, class or gender. In my understanding, it does not teach the opposite i.e. if you do not believe in Christ you have any worth less of a person.

Everyone remains our neighbour if not our brother and sister.

14 August 2011 at 23:52  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

Ps

Wasn't that the message of The Good Samaritan.

When asked who is my neighbour, after saying we should our neighbour, Jesus chose a group dispised by the Jews. A group who the Jews believed their system of ehics did not apply to because they were less than them.

14 August 2011 at 23:55  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

*love* our neighbour.

14 August 2011 at 23:56  
Blogger len said...

We must distinguish between true Christianity as revealed in God's Word, and the corrupt manifestations of Christianity that owe their origins more to human reasoning. In other words, Christianity is not racist by nature, although some individual Christians are (as are some Hindus, atheists and other non-Christians).
Historically speaking, the white races are relative late-comers to the Christian religion. For example, the ancestors of the northern European Anglo-Saxons continued to be full-blown pagans for centuries after the Gospel message first went out on the Day of Pentecost (c. 30 AD)
While the Bible teaches that God created all human beings equal, the atheistic ideas of evolution have led many to adopt racist views. Hitler, for example, was influenced by evolutionary Darwinism when he espoused the racist view that the 'Aryan' race was superior to all others. One manifestation of evolutionary thinking, known as social Darwinism, led to racist and class policies in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries:

Along with the teaching that the Gospel is open to all races, the Bible clearly emphasizes that God created all humans equal, and all people who respond to the Gospel will be accepted by Him.
"... God shows no partiality. But in every nation [Greek ethnos] whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him" (Acts. 10:34,35).

15 August 2011 at 00:18  
Blogger The Worker said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

15 August 2011 at 00:46  
Blogger The Worker said...

The Bible teaches we are all descendants of Adam and Eve. An unequivocal statement we are one "race".

We are called to treat all people equally. This is a key message of Christianity. Our moral and ethical behaviour is applicable across all divides.

Some members of orthodox Jewish and Muslim faiths interpret their scripture as giving them authority to apply different standards of behaviour to those not of their religion. They are a superior people, they alone carry God's message and have a unique mission.

I see no such message in the Gospel of Christ. Christians are known by their behaviour. They are not superior to others and permitted them to treat unequally.

15 August 2011 at 00:56  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Starkey's words will be remembered long after those of the two fools have been forgotten - in my case, forgotten about thirty seconds ago!

No, Starkey was not a fool Your Grace. Last week, the cat was most decidedly wrenched from the bag. The only ''jarring dissonance'' was the same old 'same old' from the white nob and the black whatever; and the BBC cannot tell us otherwise!

15 August 2011 at 02:40  
Anonymous Oswin said...

I should have added, that it is my belief that the events of last week heralded a new age of burgeoning commonsense in Britain.

The bletherings of white liberals, the protestations of black mountebanks, and the dribblings of namby-pamby 'happy-clappers' will all come to nothing.

The die is cast; and I for one am more hopeful than I have been for many, many years. Do NOT despair!

15 August 2011 at 03:04  
Anonymous Michal said...

What a loon. Good people talk like the upper class! Why can't blacks just turn white? all our social ills would just go away! David Starkey for PM!

15 August 2011 at 04:23  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

I find it amazing and not just a little hilarious that people expend so much mental anguish over an arbitrary concept like 'race.' The only thing that perpetuates racial division is the tendency of people to marry those of like kind. If in some hypothetical universe mates were assigned at random, the entire concept of 'race' would disappear. Which tells you everything you need to know about these fictitious discrete points we call races. Humanity is not ontologically separated into separate races. That idea is simply ignorant. It may flatter the ego to think of oneself as belonging to a superior race, but the flattery is an illusion.

carl

15 August 2011 at 05:01  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

Anonymous’s comments about the exploitative actions of Jews is interesting. Of course it does not just apply to Jews. Britain was exploitative when it had the ‘empire’ and America and Russia destabilized sovereign nations during the Cold war and since to their own national advantage. That said we might consider that the West is in decline partly due to the movement of manufacturing industries to China which is communist which was set up by Jews. Also, many so called enlightened regulations in the West has made our manufacturing industries un-competitive. Russia has recovered and it makes us reflect that this perhaps is the beast that appeared dead in Revelation chapter 12
"3 I saw that one of its heads seemed to have had a fatal wound but that this deadly injury had healed and the whole world had marvelled and followed the beast".
As I said earlier communism was set up by Jews and possibly the same organization continues to operate behind the scenes to bring about the New World Order and set up the conditions for the coming of the anti-christ. Christ was a Jew and some claim that the anti-christ will also be a Jew. I do not know the answer to all this but we are going to need discernment in the years to come

15 August 2011 at 05:49  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

Sorry it was Revelation 13.

15 August 2011 at 05:50  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

Whilst what he said, or should I say tried to say, is correct.

You may say he shouldn't have participated or minced his words but that is the dilemma.

The BBC is so far to the Left that no-one with right of centre, mainstream, views will ever get a fair hearing - he faced two left wingers and a left wing, quite aggressive, host.

Typical of the BBC - no fairness or balance.

What is to do - boycott the BBC?

Now there's an idea.

15 August 2011 at 07:42  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shacklefree I've never subscribed to the paranoid idea that the Jews in their entirity or even a substantial majority are out to dominate the world. Nonetheless, this larger caricature effectively masks the fact that substantial numbers of Sabatean Jews run interference, to cover the nefarious activities of their unsavory brethren. As one example among many, we know of the Italian mafia, through movies and books, so much so that at one stage, when a movie pans to an Italian Catholic mass, it presaged a gangster shootout ahead. But for everyone who has heard of Lucky Luciano how many have heard of Sydney Korshak, the members of Murder Inc or Meyer Lansky?

Ivan

15 August 2011 at 09:06  
Blogger I am Stan said...

Your Grace,

Who gives a s*^t what David Starky says?

15 August 2011 at 10:05  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cathyby said...

The problem with Dr David Starkey's words is that the gangsta culture he refers to is not "black culture", any more than skin-heads or punks were "white culture".

Although the skinheads were not representative of all whites it would be quite true to say that they were predominantly white. In the same way the gangsta culture started in the black community and still has its greatest appeal there but, like many aspects of black culture, seems to be becoming influential among young whites too.

Consequently, although Dr Starkey could have expressed his views more tactfully he was quite correct to criticise gangsta culture.

Roy

15 August 2011 at 10:49  
Blogger huffward said...

His Grace is correct in my view when he says that the sole purpose of the discussion was to perpetuate BBC orthodoxy - move one in a game contrived ultimately to blame the riots on "middle-class elitism".

But isn't it a tad naive to accuse Starkey of being a fool? Doesn't he revel in his reputation as the rudest man in Britain? Hasn't he now positioned himself as martyr of the right? Will he not reap glory from this this? And weren't some of his comments intentionally provocative?

I suspect that Starkey knew exactly what he was doing.

15 August 2011 at 10:50  
Anonymous The Seventh From Adam said...

A 'superior' race or culture remains always 'superior', it can't be destroyed easily.

Why do the racists folks on this and many other blogs and sites forget about that ugly and 'inferior' culture of White British footbal hooligans? Or the many thousand White British anarchist-tourists who are hated in many touristic destinations of the planet?

Numbers 12:1,9-15 Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had married a Cushite woman).

So the anger of the LORD burned against them and He departed. But when the cloud had withdrawn from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, as white as snow. As Aaron turned toward Miriam, behold, she was leprous.

Then Aaron said to Moses, “Oh, my lord, I beg you, do not account this sin to us, in which we have acted foolishly and in which we have sinned. “Oh, do not let her be like one dead, whose flesh is half eaten away when he comes from his mother’s womb!”

Moses cried out to the LORD, saying, “O God, heal her, I pray!”

Two of the most tragic things that are holding back humanity these days are RACISM & ISLAMISM. As in Islamism, many White racists are still as ignorant and unrepentant as 3000 years ago. They continue deceiving themselves, and hating a particular group of people. Now, many of the Arabs and Turks are easily transfering the spirit of Ishmael into Europe and America.

Martin Luther had already identified the Islamic faith as the "scourge of God."
as early as 1518.

He said:

„The Muslims were simply God's scourge and schoolmaster, permitted by God to be the servant of the devil, who not only ruins land and people with the sword but also lays waste the Christian faith and our dear Lord Jesus Christ.“

Repent, repent, guys!

15 August 2011 at 11:59  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

Anonymous, you have raised issues about which I am not very knowledgeable. I’ve done some googling but perhaps you could supply an internet link or two to direct us more precisely.

15 August 2011 at 12:39  
Anonymous berserker-nkl said...

English Viking said:

The BBC should be shut down, and all the nasty little beeboids made to live in the stinking world they have helped to create.

I love 'beeboids' but does Salford love them?

Are the beebees hoisted on their own petard? or to play with the Bard..

O, 'tis most sweet,
When in one line two crafts directly meet.

15 August 2011 at 14:57  
Anonymous Oswin said...

Carl Jacobs @05:01 :

I've always found that a little flattery works wonders, illusory or not.

I am Stan @ 10:05 :

Yet again, you might be in a bit of a minority on that one Stan.

Huffward @ 10:50 :

You may be right, Starkey cannot lose either way.

15 August 2011 at 15:27  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The BBC allowed a racist historian to air his bigoted and narrow minded views within a public forum (this coming on the back of the Darcus Howe "you are a rioter" fiasco). I am a Black British woman who has studied Law at a top 5 UK institution, yet, Starkey referred to Black culture in totality as having a nefarious impact on white society. Well I cannot recall going out to loot my corner shop after finishing my final exams.
Black culture is disparate. There is no such uniform entity. He is suggesting that Nigerian, Jamaican, Antigua, Trinidadian, Cuban, Barbadian, Trinidadian, Zimbabwean culture is the same as we are all black. For goodness sake we do not even eat the same food let along share the same cultural traditions. His suggestion is also that since we are all black, we are all prone to rioting, crime activites,speaking patois and subverting impressionable white youth. Ridiculous and offensive to the extreme. Black culture was not responsible for the riots, it was a subculture unique to dispossessed urban youths that was responsible for the riots.
He has cast a shadow over the entire black community and contributed to the racism which is now being levelled against my community particularly online. He stoke the fires and his comments were like an incediary device and I personally know of many black people who are presently scared for their safety. I am black as I stated earlier and no one that I know speaks patois or listens to gangster rap. This is a fallacy and a dangerous one. He has sterotyped an entire community and contributed to the belief that black people are no good and good for nothing.
Thank you David Starkey!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

15 August 2011 at 16:36  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

.. and if that youtube link does not appear then go to youtube and type in "UPDATED! UK RIOTS 2011-BLAMING BLACK PEOPLE: LET'S PLAY THIS GAME!"

15 August 2011 at 16:38  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Email note to David Starkey:

Attention: Dr David Starkey

Dear Mr Starkey,

After listening to your comments raised on Newsnight concerning public disorder and the influence of blacks on such outcomes, I felt it important to correct the errors contained in your assertation.

Whilst I agree that Enoch Powellism will be played out on our streets, I disagree that it will not involve intercommunal violence, as post hit and run in Winson Green, the Asian community (Muslim and Sikh) understood the act to have been conducted by a black man, and were on the verge of prosecuting a race war but for the imposition of the brave parent so affected by loss. It is now given by police arrest that the driver of the vehicle involved in the hit and run was actually white!

On the subject of language which you so assiduously covered on the Newsnight programme, the email extract you read out is not consistent with any Jamaican vernacular. The phrase ‘innit’ is east end in origin and therefore your connection of rioters with Jamaica is particularly offensive, and demonstrates your clear ignorance of difference. Looting and rioting should not be confused with culture and for you to pretend otherwise insults your intelligence. For example, if blacks where to wear cloth caps, straight trousers and march to London with a stick of black pudding, that would neither make them Geordie or a Jarrow Crusader, would it? The Riot Act 1714 clearly predated the events over the last few weeks and as such would indicate little black influence on rioting historically. Therefore your attempt to connect the acts of rioting and looting to an individual’s culture, from whence he/she emanates is also erroneous.

What we had over the last two weeks was acts of protest initially directly connected to an event in north London, which led to a series of unconnected events which culminated in an orgy of theft and the death of three innocent individuals in Birmingham. None of this has any Jamaican influence, but rather a peculiarly British one which has some origin in the socio-economic and the type of racism you are resplendent with. A rioter is a rioter and a thief is a thief! It is not culture or the level of melanin underneath the skin that causes any individual to commit a criminal act, save the discrete personality and character of the individual involved.

As a Jamaican national, I do not recognise the language of Black youth in Britain today as anything like the Jamaican dialect that I know and love so well and as an historian you have a responsibility to ensure that any analysis you postulate should be factual in account and basis.

To help with future studies of assimilation that you are abundantly lacking, I provide a link to a YouTube Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkMm-f9FLFg&feature=player_embedded), featuring the Hon Mr Michael Henry – Minister of Transport and Works Jamaica, so that you can understand what the Jamaican dialect sounds like when spoken. Further, I attach the poems of the Jamaican noble poet laureate Claude McKay, to provide a degree of solace for the quiet period of reflection that you are in desperate need of taking.

Regards

15 August 2011 at 17:07  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Nicely put Anonymous.

15 August 2011 at 17:16  
Blogger huffward said...

Agreed. I once had the privilege of meeting Viv Richards and Joel Garner, neither of whom spoke remotely as David Starkey alleges.

But Starkey's mostly concerned with being Starkey these days.

15 August 2011 at 20:13  
Blogger huffward said...

O,I forgot. Claude McKay - wonderful nobility of language:

"O kinsmen! we must meet the common foe!
Though far outnumbered let us show us brave,
And for their thousand blows deal one death-blow!"

And what about V S Naipaul and Derek Walcott?

15 August 2011 at 20:28  
Anonymous Northern Martin said...

It's appropriate that Starkey's come-uppance comes following the rude and offensive way he dealt with many people on the "Moral Maze", which, I recall, was broadcast by the namby-pamby, lily-livered BBC.

"Time brings all" as one might say.

16 August 2011 at 01:10  
Anonymous Oswin said...

There's none so blind as those who will not see ... and for some people here, it applies to their brains too. Deny the truth as much as you like, it doesn't make it any less so.

Like children, hiding behind their spread fingers ...

16 August 2011 at 01:34  
Blogger sAx said...

Further to my earlier note to Mr Starkey (see email above), irony has noted that Churchill used the poem of the noble laureate ("If We Should Die") when speaking to the American Congress at the dawn of WWII. I guess therefore that the honorable historian has concluded that Churchill became black when using the poetry of the noble Claude McKay! A Jamaican patois of sorts for sure.

sAx

16 August 2011 at 11:50  

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