Wednesday, August 10, 2011

Fire over England - a culture of rootless individualism

London


Birmingham


Bristol


Leeds


Liverpool


Nottingham


Manchester


Not since the Second World War have so many buildings been ablaze in so many cities across England. As the lawlessness spreads like a virus from hell, there is a sense of apocalypse; of the breakdown of society; of the collapse of civilisation.

It is the pre-eminent and primary function of government to protect its citizens, maintain law and order, and sustain the peace and security of the realm. It is time for Her Majesty's Government to act: truncheons and riot shields aren't quite cutting it. These riots are now costing lives. It is time to move to water cannon and plastic bullets, and to deploy the army (if any remaining regiments are available). No democratically-elected government wants to use the military against its own citizens, but the police are clearly overwhelmed and appear to be making arrests only when it safe to do so, rather than intervening to prevent the criminality, protect property, and save lives.

It is quite moving to read of Sikhs in Southall guarding their gurdwara, and of those three Muslims in Birmingham who died trying to protect their property and community. It is reported that some of those involved in the violence are as young as 10 or 11, and that it is principally being perpetrated by those in their late teens - early 20s. This is the price we pay for moral relativism. Parents and teachers can no longer instruct their children in the difference between right and wrong, and so there is no distinguishing between good and evil. If it feels right and good, do it: the moral course of action is what the individual determines. The truth is what you make it, for there is no universal view of morality; no absolute standard by which all may be judged. And so we must tolerate the beliefs and actions of others even when they impinge upon the rights and liberties of others.

Our politicians have spent decades dismantling the foundations of our moral order; fracturing and fragmenting the culture that made England cohesive and the United Kingdom coherent. They have created a culture of rootless individualism, for which we are now paying the price. May God forgive them.

80 Comments:

Anonymous malvoisin said...

Our politicians have spent decades dismantling the foundations of our moral order; fracturing and fragmenting the culture that made England cohesive and the United Kingdom coherent. They have created a culture of rootless individualism, for which we are now paying the price. May God forgive them.

No, may god forgive you and all those who have voted for these politicians over the last few decades.

10 August 2011 at 10:19  
Blogger Old Holborn said...

Individualism?

If only. This is the collective of the welfare addicted demanding more Danegeld to behave themselves

10 August 2011 at 10:25  
Anonymous philip walling said...

May God forgive Harriet Harperson, Ken Livingstone, Tony Blair, G Brown 'Ed' Balls etc etc, and above all the generation that bred them and taught them all they know: Shirley Williams, Tony Benn, Dick Crosman, Harold Wilson etc etc, and all the other unprincipled scoundrels from whom the feral youth of Britain take their lead.

10 August 2011 at 10:30  
Blogger thestreetman said...

Your Grace,

YOu are right to blame moral relativism (and its ugly parent, multiculturalism) for this wanton violence.

But I don't think politicians can take all the credit. I think the Gold Medal should go the BBC, our privileged, pampered, self-aggrandising Thought Police for this sorry state of affairs.

10 August 2011 at 10:35  
Anonymous tony b said...

I agree about the army, water cannon etc. But all the rest is just prejudice and sweeping generalisation.

Philip Walling, what absolute twaddle.

10 August 2011 at 10:37  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Our politicians have spent decades … fracturing and fragmenting the culture that made England cohesive and the United Kingdom coherent.

England was cohesive when her people were overwhelmingly of one race and one religion. The politicians (I cannot think of them as ‘our politicians’ anymore) set out to destroy that cohesion by importing other races and religions. Their plan is already showing encouraging signs of success but it will only reach fruition in 60 years or so when the English have become an ethnic minority. A country that took a thousand years to build, destroyed in a hundred.

10 August 2011 at 10:39  
Anonymous tony b said...

The BBC is responsible now is it? Good Christ, your grace, you do attract more than your fair share of wallies.

10 August 2011 at 10:39  
Anonymous tony b said...

Johnny R
Could you explain to poor little me exactly WHY our politicians would plan to do that?

10 August 2011 at 10:41  
Anonymous philip walling said...

Mr tony b,

You can tell when you've flushed out a lefty moral relativist when he lashes out at the man and not the ball.

10 August 2011 at 10:46  
Anonymous tony b said...

Mr Walling. I described what you said as twaddle. That is not lashing out at the man, is it? An example of that would be if I called you personally a Berk or somesuch.

Really, to say rioters and looters are following the example set by Harriet Harman is absurd in the highest degree. You might as well blame Mickey Mouse for all the sense you're making.

10 August 2011 at 10:51  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ tony b (10:41)—Certainly. Political élites in this and other countries are moving towards supranational, and then world, government. A prerequisite for such a development is the abandonment of the nation state. In this speech, then Foreign Secretary David Miliband says:

❛As we move into a multipolar world, power is coalescing around a few regional centres. Not just the USA, but China, India, Brazil. With a nod to Woodrow Wilson’s 1919 Age of Nations, people are starting to talk about an Age of Continents.❜

And in this speech, Pascal Lamy of the WTO says:

❛Global challenges need global solutions and these can only come with the right global governance, which today, twenty years later, remains too weak. … Among the many regional integration attempts, the European Union remains the laboratory of international governance—the place where the new technological frontier of international governance is being tested.❜

10 August 2011 at 10:56  
Blogger Ben Trovato said...

The guru of child-centred education, Carl Rogers, has some responsibility here. His values-clarification approach replaced the teaching of right and wrong as the paradigm for moral education here and in the US.

Kids are taught to consider moral issues by asking such questions as 'Would I feel bad about it afterwards?'

To which the rioters' response is "only if I'm caught - and that's unlikely..."

Add to that collapse in educational philosophy the destruction of the family, for which governments of every political affiliation for the last few decades share responsibility, resulting in the fact that most of the rioters (80:20 probability in Tottenham) have no father living in the 'family' home, and you have some of the context for this behaviour...

10 August 2011 at 11:02  
Anonymous philip walling said...

During the last War D.W. Winnicott wrote in a paper on 'The Problem of Homeless Children':

"Each child according to the degree of his distrust, and according to the degree of his hopelessness about the loss of his own home (and sometimes his recognition of the inadequacy of that home while it lasted), is all the time testing the hostel staff as he would test his own parents. Sometimes he does this directly, but most of the time he is content to let another child do the testing for him. An important thing about this testing is that it ids not something that can be achieved and done with. Always somebody has to be a nuisance. Often one of the staff will say: "We'd be all right if it weren't for Tommy ...", but in point of fact the others can only afford to be 'all right' because Tommy is being a nuisance, and is proving to them that the home can stand up to Tommy's testing, and could therefore presumably stand up to their own."

Winnicott came to the view that a child requires to have its original feeling of infinity closely delimited and its life confined within a circle. If the laws established by the child's parents prove unreliable, if the child can break them with impunity, the feeling of infinity becomes an abyss of nothingness and sets up acute distress and indeed despair in the child. He looks elsewhere for his circle of authority and tests the law personified by his teachers and later by the police.

"The young delinquent," says Dr Winnicott elsewhere, "values and loves the policeman."

He further points out that:
"The thief's inability to keep and enjoy what is stolen is well known. The boy who steals apples from an orchard and who eats the apples himself is not ill, is not a delinquent. He is just greedy, and his greed is relatively conscious. The anti-social child steals apples and either wastes them or gives them away. Intermediate is the boy who eats them and is sick, the sickness being a bodily form of feeling guilty."

10 August 2011 at 11:06  
Anonymous AnonymousinBelfast said...

Your Grace is spot on: it is genuinely moving to hear of different ethnic, religious, and cultural groups defending the communities they live in, and responding to the violence. (I am also certain that there were atheists, agnostics, and humanists amongst them, before anyone accuses me of ignoring them). That many of these souls are as disaffected and disadvantaged as those doing the damage, speaks volumes of their character. How many in Westminster, or Fleet Street, would respond to such conditions as admirably?

There is one point where perhaps the teaching of Christ is particularly apposite at the moment. The press and the population seem to be torn between, on the one hand, condemning the violence, and seeking to understand/explain/apologise for/justify the rioters (that's a sliding scale, btw). I prefer Christ's formula: "But I tell you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Mt 5:44).

These rioters are unquestionably the enemies of anyone who stands up for peace. And we must love them - because many have not been loved, and many have been treated unlovingly.

There are many solutions available in the face of such violent disorder, but none, it seems to me, as powerful as this one given 2000 years ago.

10 August 2011 at 11:09  
Blogger thestreetman said...

@ tony b

It's real simple really.

Do you not feel the BBC is the principal arbiter of social and political thought in the UK and that its worldview is essentially leftist/multiculturalist?

YOu agree? Good.

So why is the BBC and its relentless campaign of multiculti propaganda, not relevant to what's happening in our burning cities ?

Care to explain where I'm wrong?

10 August 2011 at 11:10  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Your Grace, it is the spiritual and emotional poverty that I find most upsetting. Many children in this country are being brought up appalling circumstances and they grow up into young men and women with no hope and no respect for their communities. There is no excuse for the dreadful scenes of the past few days, but surely we are all in part responsible for the societies in which we live. We can do something to help, through our churches or other charities.
The work of one charity, Kids Company, with these children is truly impressive. Its founder Camila Batmanhelidjh wrote an interesting piece about the issue yesterday:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/camila-batmanghelidjh-caring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html

10 August 2011 at 11:12  
Anonymous tony b said...

The streetman. No, I don't agree with your characterisation of the BBC.

10 August 2011 at 11:21  
Anonymous MrJ said...

"blame moral relativism... politicians... BBC" (10:35) ?

Moral relativism was not invented by pols or broadcasters, in this century or the last. Some diffuse [sic] and practise it, but they have been brought up with it and taught it. Who were their teachers, when, where and how?

And sometimes, "relativism" is a deceitful mask for absolutism.

"...decades dismantling the foundations of our moral order; fracturing and fragmenting the culture that made England cohesive and the United Kingdom coherent... a culture of rootless individualism... May God forgive them. "

Are the pols such as JR cites at 10:56 merely alllured by delusions of grandeur, or warning of what is happening and pretending to have the capacity to know what ought to be done?

10 August 2011 at 11:29  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ MrJ (11:29)—I can only guess at the motives of politicians. Unable to resist meddling; deploying the modus operandi of Willi (We will make the West so corrupt that it stinks) Münzenberg; perhaps even a belief that world government will usher in a bright new dawn. Whatever the reason, it is certain that the nation state is the best hope the people have of remaining free; our experiences of the European Union are proof of that.

10 August 2011 at 11:47  
Blogger thestreetman said...

@ tony b

Huh? You don't think the BBC has been actively promoting multiculturalism and undermining any idea that challenges this???!!!

Pitiful.

10 August 2011 at 11:56  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Your Grace, are the riots caused by rootless individuals or by gangs? A gang is of course a discrete social unit of disaffected adolescent males. There tends not to be any individualism within a gang, rather submission to the gang leader, a condition enforced by peer pressure.

Your communicant therefore challenges the assertion that rootless individualism is to blame but endorses the idea of a collapsed moral order.

Dave appears to understand this point, but then the country has become ungovernable, so who cares what he thinks?

The real question is who is co-ordinating the gangs? They seem too controlled to be a purely random threat to society.

10 August 2011 at 11:57  
Anonymous Dreadnaught said...

With politicians screwing their expenses and lining their pockets with dodgy 'consultancy' deals; top policemen taking bungs and freebies why should we be surprised when the lower social indulge in the same sort of opportunistic feeding frenzy.

Water cannons and baton rounds are ok as 'fire fighting' responses but it need to go much much further.

'Zero Tolerance' starts at the top - when the police and pollies do something about that, we will start to see it reflecting right through society.

10 August 2011 at 12:04  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Three citizens dead and two critically injured defending their properties against an insurrection by criminal gangs which a Conservative-dominated government refuses to deploy sufficient force to put down.

How very naice.

Time to emigrate.

10 August 2011 at 12:06  
Anonymous A quiet man said...

An excellent article Your Grace, it succinctly hits the nail on the head. My hope is that the Church begins to take a stronger stance on moral authority, this alone will turn the tide that has eroded the Nation's identity.

Tony B, as I have seen, you have proven yourself to be quite proficient at the usual left-wing tricks of avoiding direct questions and responding by changing the subject, splitting hairs and attacking views (if not the person, in spirit) that you disagree with. It is an attitude that I have encountered personally and it adds nothing of any worth to any discussion.

The application of common sense would show that it is the attitude within society, which is supposedly formed by the government (leaders who are meant to serve!), that has lead to the current mess that we have to live in.

By letting go of the reins of self-responsibility and the responsibility we have to our fellow man, we have literally run riot.

10 August 2011 at 12:06  
Blogger Dissenter said...

I am surprised not to have heard any reference yet to the Stephen Lawrence report. Since this incompetent (it was published with the names of police informers, who then had to run for their lives) and grossly biased report came out, the coppers have been more frightened of the anti-racist thought police than the criminals are of the police. And it shows.

The biased and unfair reporting of and overreaction to Ricky Tomlinson's essentially accidental death has also fed the fear. A policeman confronting rioters now will be thinking 'they are probably filming me, I could be on YouTube, better make myself as small as possible and stay out of trouble, or I could lose my job and pension.' Our law enforcers are clearly working with one hand tied behind the back and both eyes over their shoulders.

The BBC and their chums in the Guardian are most to blame. Yesterday I heard on radion 4 news the usual sub-Freudian 'wewl a fink dat sersierdi iz 2 blame dey aint give us enuff yoof clubs' guff being spouted by a 'disadvantaged' blak yoof. If people cannot speak English or follow simple instructions then they are unemployable. If they are in such a condition afer 11 years compulsory full time education, there is something seriously wrong. No wonder China is overtaking the west.


Rioters and looters should, after a repeated warning, be shot and not with water or baton rounds but hollow point 9mm rounds. If EU law does not allow this, there is a solution to that which would please many of us.

If middle England does not wake up to the full implications and the trajectory of what we have just seen after this, it will be a sign that we are too far gone in sleep to prevent London becoming Mogadishu by 2030.

10 August 2011 at 12:09  
Anonymous M rJ said...

Mr Johnny Rottenborough (11:47).

"...nation state is the best hope the people have of remaining free; our experiences of the European Union are proof of that."

Recovery of UK sovereignty, with a government fit to govern- yes.

How far that could be for the kingdoms and republics of continental Europe, or for the Irish Republic, may be another question.

And for the Federal Republic of the United States of America, yet another question, and India, China...

Will the time come soon enough for the people of this country to be able to recover the freedom which is proposed for their "nation state": certainly not under a government of any past or present ministers, or most of the legislature.

10 August 2011 at 12:10  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

Cranny tells us that 'No democratically-elected government wants to use the military against its own citizens...'

No, but they seem very keen to deploy them against the citizens of other countries. Especially when in those countries our government has supported the rioters and insurrectionists.

Mr Philip Walling, you missed out Roy Jenkins, possibly the worst of the lot.

10 August 2011 at 12:23  
Anonymous martin sewell said...

We are seeing the consequences of all the moral values of
Generation Toynbee.

The sky is black with chickens coming home to roost.

I have just heard a BBC Court reporter speaking somewhat sympathetically that one of the rioters will be getting a criminal record that will blight his life for " only stealing two Burberry Tee Shirts". Do these people have no concept of the bigger picture? The average offender does nor get caught on his first offence.

The more worrying thing is that whilst the Courts seem to be doing a good job ( and well done Cheshire CPS for tackling social media incitment) our national broadcaster is constructing the " rioter as victim too" narrative.

10 August 2011 at 12:33  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is the fact that teachers and parents can no longer teach absolutes of right and wrong. The Ten Commandments are a good start even for unbelievers and closely followed by 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' , a belief in a Holy God is the best incentive to keep the laws. Even very primitive societies have enforceable laws as of course does the football pitch, abandon these and anarchy results .
Any teacher will tell you if you allow children to take an inch they will take two and three and soon you have a mile. Same with law enforcement. Hundreds of laws are being broken daily and openly with the police turning a blind eye. We only have ourselves to blame for being too lazy to challenge this . You reap what you sow. I am considering emigration. I wish I had done so thirty years ago not at pensionable age

10 August 2011 at 12:39  
Anonymous Jon said...

YG, I'm afraid I agree with Old Holborn. Moral relativism has nothing to do with the wanton greed displayed here. The gangs roaming the streets stealing at will weren't moralising their actions, they simply weren't afraid of repercussions against the indulgence of their worst natures.

In societies where the fear of God is paramount, there was/is still delinquent behaviour by the population and the authorities - the sanction of damnation is as equally ineffective as the sanction of prison where bad people believe that punishment will not be applied.

Have you considered that, perhaps the blame lies with Christianity, in whose embrace all sins can be forgiven if they are repented? If the rioters repented, would the buildings and businesses rebuild themselves? No, they wouldn't. But surely the Church would be satisfied with the outcome, whilst society would despair!

10 August 2011 at 12:46  
Anonymous philip walling said...

Mr Anabaptist, I did! You're quite right!
Woy was a v bad man. Did a lot of harm. I could also include David Steel and a host of others still working away to our destruction.

Mr Martin Sewell, the BBC has shown its true morally relativist colours over this. It ought to have its wings clipped - to continue the chicken metaphor.

10 August 2011 at 12:52  
Anonymous philip walling said...

Dear Jon,

If I were you I'd try to learn a bit about Christianity and morality before I allowed my finger access to the keyboard.

10 August 2011 at 12:56  
Anonymous Philip said...

Excellent piece rom HG pointing to real causes beyond the immediate one that individuals took the decision to commit arson and looting.

I also agree with the comments in this thread pointing out the malign influence of the BBC and their culture of moral equivalence of perpetrators and victims. I expect in the next few weeks we'll get spades of blame the victims (e.g. it's our fault that an 'underclass' has been created due to the Big State not being Big enough or that society is not ‘equal’ enough or whatever)

10 August 2011 at 13:11  
Anonymous Jon said...

Philip Walling,

I'm a Christian of sorts, and I've studied morality fairly extensively. To quote you from earlier in the thread, "You can tell when you've flushed out a lefty moral relativist when he lashes out at the man and not the ball".

Perhaps you'd like to explain how my question has awakened your lefty side, if you can't actually answer my point?

10 August 2011 at 13:13  
Anonymous A quiet man said...

Jon,

It is quite possible for a criminal to receive Justice and Redemption.

He has given us all of His Love and our lives, in order that we can show love to eachother, by taking action to do what is right.

Whether we agree or disagree with Him, it will always be our choice.

10 August 2011 at 13:19  
Anonymous Jon said...

A quiet man - I agree, with most of what you write, but in protestantism, if justification is by faith alone, then surely the root of protestant sin could be the expectation of redemption regardless of actions?

I don't for a second suggest that the looters and thugs gave this a moment's thought, but I'm merely pointing out that post modernism or moral relativism isn't the only pseudo- scientific/ religious/ political label we can attach to their actions. What His Grace has done is used the action of the mob to fortify his existing political position, rather than approach it objectively, and I'm suggesting how someone with differing opinions (however spurious) could do the same.

10 August 2011 at 13:31  
Blogger Alissa1989 said...

Jon,

Repenting means turning away from whatever is repented of. So if the rioters genuinely repented (and it takes genuine repentance to obtain forgiveness), they would (generally) not riot again. This is an outcome that society would be very happy with!

Your Grace, thank you for this article. Surely moral relativism (and behind it, turning from God and his laws) is at the heart of this disorder. Everyone 'does what is right in his own eyes', and no-one fears a time when he will have to give account to God.

10 August 2011 at 13:32  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

1. Rioters riot for fun and profit. The critical enabling condition occurs when authority refuses to intervene. The way to stop it is to deploy the threat of lethal force. The Rodney King riots started because the police refused to use lethal force at the flash point of the riot and instead ran away. The mob saw the police run away. A quick introduction of the National Guard with 'shoot to kill' orders put down the riot. Forget water cannons and rubber bullets. If the government is going to maintain a monopoly on firearms then it is incumbent on the government to use that advantage to maintain law and order.

2. An armed population would help greatly right now because people could defend themselves in the absence of any police protection. The mob would not be able to act with impunity. Remember the Vietnamese in LA who were not burned and looted because they organized amongst themselves to protect their property with privately-owned firearms.

carl

10 August 2011 at 13:43  
Blogger Alissa1989 said...

Jon,

An afterthought: if someone actually believes there is such a thing as damnation, how can they also believe that 'punishment will not be applied'??

The God-fearing are much less likely to indulge in delinquent behaviour than the moral relativists. And in a society with a God-fearing culture, there will be less delinquent behaviour than in a society (such as ours) with a culture where moral relativism predominates. For then even those who don't fear God will be affected by those who do (and set the tone).

10 August 2011 at 13:50  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Spot on.

May they see the error of their ways and seek God's forgiveness. Repentance, of course, requires a change of heart, outlook and behaviour.

It will require a thoughtful, slow and determined approach to repair the damage - it's taken us a couple of generations to get here. How long before we recover - if at all?

10 August 2011 at 14:01  
Blogger Graham Davis said...

Cranmer said
This is the price we pay for moral relativism. Parents and teachers can no longer instruct their children in the difference between right and wrong, and so there is no distinguishing between good and evil. If it feels right and good, do it: the moral course of action is what the individual determines. The truth is what you make it, for there is no universal view of morality; no absolute standard by which all may be judged. And so we must tolerate the beliefs and actions of others even when they impinge upon the rights and liberties of others.

The majority of people in this country are appalled by recent events and by the neglect shown by the parents of looters and rioters who don’t understand their own responsibilities as parents. It is individual families that are the guardians of public morality by imbuing their own offspring with respect both for others and themselves. The values within a family are passed on naturally by parents to their young and many like me do this not by subscribing to a rigid set of religiously inspired rules but simply because as human beings we have concern for others. Of course those families that are morally deficient pass on those values too but if your premise is that we need an imaginary friend to guide us then I say your cause is lost.

You don’t need God to be good, in fact God has inspired some of the worst acts perpetrated by mankind. What you do need is to educate the next generation of parents so that they will become responsible and moral citizens.

10 August 2011 at 14:08  
Blogger Daddy said...

Or, Mr Davis, let us be parents in the first place...

10 August 2011 at 14:13  
Anonymous Jon said...

Alissa, surely any number of actions by the faithful over the years contradict you? The Inquisition, the Catholic Church's blind eye towards Hitler, etc. Or were these aberrations by those who had no belief but professed it? (In which case, a house divided against itself, etc?)

My point is that you can do what you like and repent on your deathbed. The Church would be happy, society would be horrified. Therefore is religion the solution? Anyway, I can see I'm less preaching to the choir than teaching them evolution and so will stop!

I'm with Carl Jacobs on his first point, but not on his second.

10 August 2011 at 14:16  
Anonymous A quiet man said...

I see your point Jon; if you mean that the offer of eternal salvation should not be treated as a 'Get out of Jail free card', then I would agree.

Every transgression should be held to account and judgement passed accordingly, although on this side of death that seems to be a bit tricky in practice, as far I can tell. Obviously, I can't speak from experience of the other side!

As for objectivity, it's a good point that I hadn't really considered when I first read this article, mainly because it fortifies my existing politcal (and religious) position! It's certainly an important characteristic that would (I hope) promote peaceful (if not lively) discussion between groups that both hold strong opinions/beliefs, who may be able to agree in principle, if not in practice. Although that seems to be a position that is hard to achieve and maintain.

The problem in my case, if you want to call it a problem, is that the more I learn about Christianity and compassionate conservatism, the more I agree with it!

10 August 2011 at 14:49  
Anonymous A quiet man said...

I was a bit slow and missed your previous post Jon.

Religion is only a part of the answer as I see it; religion without a living faith and true conviction to act with Love, is dead. What's the point of any rule of Law, if the spirit of that Law is absent/ignored? The MP expenses scandal would be an example of this, I think.

I don't think we can simply legislate our way to an answer without fostering a heartfelt sense of who we are as a United Kingdom and what our purpose is.

Whatever name an individual or organisation may have, we will know them by their fruit. I would say that goes double for anyone who proclaims to believe in things unseen!

10 August 2011 at 15:16  
Blogger I am Stan said...

Your Grace,

They`re just, words words words, the same scripted rehearsed platitudes they always come out with, the answer is simple but one that terrifies the political classes.

Let God fearing law abiding Brits legally arm themselves, with handguns, knives, swords whatever.

As it stands the only people with any access to effective self defense are the state and the criminals with the rest of us sandwiched in the middle at their mercy.

An armed society is a polite society!

10 August 2011 at 15:21  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Graham Davis said ...
" ... those families that are morally deficient pass on those values too but if your premise is that we need an imaginary friend to guide us then I say your cause is lost."

You missed the point completely! How can you have a morality that is not rooted in some absolute? Divorce, abortion, assisted suicide, hedonism etc. are all the fruit of a denial of God. If we fail to accept and understand that, in his nature man is perverse and fallen and needs a moral order, all we're left with is relativistic ethics.

Jon said...
" ... surely any number of actions by the faithful over the years contradict you? The Inquisition, the Catholic Church's blind eye towards Hitler, etc."

One might agree with the general point you're making, i.e that enmity between Christians doesn't help the message of God, but why be so sectarian and divisive and, I would argue, incorrect in the examples given?

10 August 2011 at 15:30  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

Your Grace said “This is the price we pay for moral relativism. Parents and teachers can no longer instruct their children in the difference between right and wrong, and so there is no distinguishing between good and evil. … Our politicians have spent decades dismantling the foundations of our moral order; fracturing and fragmenting the culture that made England cohesive and the United Kingdom coherent. They have created a culture of rootless individualism, for which we are now paying the price.”

Right on and perhaps we might make a beginning to change the disintegration by re-establishing the practice of public prayers in our institutions.

10 August 2011 at 15:51  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

Jon said “any number of actions by the faithful over the years contradict you? The Inquisition, the Catholic Church's blind eye towards Hitler, etc.

Very one-sided and incorrect with regard to the Catholic Churches attitude towards Hitler. A contributor to an earlier blog stated that it was the Catholic areas which resisted him most. Secondly, every time the Pope opened his mouth to condemn the atrocities, Hitler sent him a message detailing the number of Jews that had been executed precisely because he had spoken out. Thirdly, if you look beyond the Catholic Church you might consider the Boer War, the gunboat diplomacy of the British who were the drug runners in 18th century China and destroyed the efforts of the Chinese government to reduce drug addiction. You might want to consider the genocidal policies of the British in Ireland, Apartheid in South Africa, the destabilizing of countries by America and Russia throughout the Cold War and beyond and how the Western nations simply created countries by drawing lines on the map after the First World War regardless of ethnic groupings. Perhaps you haven’t heard of the slave trade, the killing fields of Cambodia etc. etc. The list is endless. Then you might like to look at the humanitarian actions of priests and nuns down the ages who gave their whole lives to help the poor supported by the collections of the faithful century after century and compare it with the ‘success’ of the United Nations who use up our taxes to do a pretty poor job. How do you measure up?

10 August 2011 at 16:23  
Anonymous not a machine said...

Your grace makes some good points , the face of what we have seen is a construct of relevetism alloyed with the simplicity of the child , it gleems but does not cope so well with the true nature of life ,or for that matter refer to christian belief.

many commentators have concluded the problems being visited are due to political ignoring , I disagree any government can look good if they award what what looks good .

some may cite the 60s as the begining of the dismantleing , yes we have had new idea built upon new idea until the old moral is expunged .

The state has replaced the need for us to manage our own conduct , to the extent we now have dissaffected parents bringing up children and grandchildren in an intense indvidual media rooted (but agnostic and corporate) enviroment .

I am sure that many thoughts come to mind on what is wrong , and in the case of some violently wrong , we may well struggle with at what level some of the concepts are (I think they are sophisticated and deliberate ,but that message is hard one ) ,what is arrived at from this will have some other problems , but it has become obvious , not out of whining right wing nostalgia , but out of what we have seen this week .

There is an inherant deciet in this modern construct , it understands the happiness in supply and demand of individual desires , but denys ,obscures even , the hidden more complex fullness of human and devine life lived in a biological function .

An electronic buddy whilst perhaps pleasing is not the same as living ones life , it can never correct out of love , as love is truly somthing of a walk with god and not our interactions with things that have programmer rather than creator god .

10 August 2011 at 16:50  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Britain is over, its a memory, lets not cry about it, lets build something new, free from Political Elites and International Bankers.

Its all very well calling for community cohesion against criminal behaviour, but we have failed our young generation, because we never took the bankers and politicians to task who rape, pillage and go on the rampage every single day.

10 August 2011 at 16:55  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"This is the price we pay for moral relativism. Parents and teachers can no longer instruct their children in the difference between right and wrong, and so there is no distinguishing between good and evil. If it feels right and good, do it: the moral course of action is what the individual determines."

That's just code for "please take my personal religion seriously again".

10 August 2011 at 17:02  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I was wondering today how many of the people rioting actually realise the criminal offence they are committing. This is not 'mere' affray on a Saturday night after a few jars. It carries a maximum sentence of 10 years I think. Perhaps the news people ought to be making that clear.

10 August 2011 at 17:08  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Cranmer said
"This is the price we pay for moral relativism. Parents and teachers can no longer instruct their children in the difference between right and wrong, and so there is no distinguishing between good and evil. If it feels right and good, do it: the moral course of action is what the individual determines. The truth is what you make it, for there is no universal view of morality; no absolute standard by which all may be judged. And so we must tolerate the beliefs and actions of others even when they impinge upon the rights and liberties of others."

Plenty of moral absolutism in The Roman Catholic and the Free Presbyterian Church so what is said in Cranmer's post holds little or no water.

10 August 2011 at 17:29  
Blogger English Viking said...

Philip Walling 10:30

Don't hold your breath.

10 August 2011 at 17:36  
Blogger len said...

Our Government aided by the Media have created a moral wasteland. There are no moral absolutes, no right and no wrong, everything is relative, if you want something...take it .
The youth have seen the politicians lining their pockets, bankers dishing themselves out obscene bonus`s, we live in a society where in the words of Gordon Gekko 'greed is good',greed works.Whether it is corporate 'tax fiddling', stretching ones expenses',or outright theft the motive behind each action is the same and one is not more honourable than another.

We are reaping what we have sown, Christians will be amongst those least surprised at what is happening.I expect it to get far worse before it gets better.

You cannot destroy the moral foundations of a Country and not have repercussions.

10 August 2011 at 17:47  
Blogger English Viking said...

Jon,

'I'm a Christian of sorts...'

A Christian 'of sorts' is no Christian at all.


'Have you considered that, perhaps the blame lies with Christianity, in whose embrace all sins can be forgiven if they are repented? If the rioters repented, would the buildings and businesses rebuild themselves? No, they wouldn't. But surely the Church would be satisfied with the outcome, whilst society would despair!'

If you knew anything about repentance, which you clearly don't, you'd know that if the rioters truly repented, they would be only too willing to pay for and work on the damages until such time as full restitution had been made. The repentance would save them, not the work/money, the latter being evidence of the former.

You've got nothing to say, and you are saying it too loudly.

10 August 2011 at 17:53  
Blogger English Viking said...

PS The repentance being an act of saving faith in the Christ, not a mere mental assent to wrongdoing, obviously.

10 August 2011 at 18:00  
Blogger len said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 August 2011 at 18:39  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace

The Inspector General has done some research into the origin of Black Gang Culture...

The prime allegiance of the African child is not his immediate family, it's the Tribe. The Tribe of course is his extended family. Everything is communal, for example child care. When the African has his own children, he will not be involved in childcare. He's a warrior with spear and knife. It would unbecoming of him, so he lives away from the childs' mother(s). Everything really is shared, so when a case of AIDS enters the tribe - everybody gets it.

When you take the African out of Africa, he brings with him his inherant instincts. He will join a gang, it's expected of him to belong to a 'tribe'. If he doesn't, he's victimised. The gang will do his thinking for him. Useful when you've only have an IQ of around 90 to get by. The problem is, if you let others do your thinking, you are never going to develope a higher IQ !

He will be in the gang until his early to mid 20s. then he's out - the young bloods have moved up and taken over. However, he's still around. He becomes a 'Black Youth Worker' (at public expense). When he's on TV, he's introduced as a 'former gang member' as if he is a reformed character doing society a favour. The ugly truth is that he NEEDS gang contact. It's all he knows and it's all he has...

There you have it...

10 August 2011 at 18:51  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One word for the Catholics - Ustase.

I'm sure it'll be ignored by the brainwashees, though.

10 August 2011 at 18:56  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here in America, I've just been reading about the ordinary English people coming together to defend their neighborhoods and it made me want to shout in spite of these tragic events that made it all necessary.

The first thought that came to my mind as a lifelong fan of Lord of the Rings was

"Fear. Fire. Foes. Awake!"

If the English were Tolkien's model for the Hobbits then what we are witnessing proves that he was right, as usual. He had y'all pretty much nailed. Push hard enough and those soft, round, kindly grocers turn fierce indeed.

Hobbits arise! Your cousins across the ponds are with you in spirit.

"Fear. Fire. Foes. Awake!"

-Peggy

10 August 2011 at 18:58  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

More words for Roman Catholics:

Sack of Antwerp

St Bartholamews Day Massacre

Sack of Magdeburg

Claudy Bombing

10 August 2011 at 20:58  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Liam come here. The protestant murder gangs are around, so they are

10 August 2011 at 21:30  
Anonymous Proddy Dog said...

There are no protestant murder gangs - only self-defence groups.

Protestant children were murdered at Claudy by a RC priest who was then hidden by the Church for decades.

10 August 2011 at 21:39  
Blogger The Worker said...

Those who seek to reopen the wounds of the Body of Christ should be mindful of His dying words. You are adding to His pain.

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

"Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise."

"Woman, behold your son: behold your mother".

"God, My God, why have you forsaken me."

"I thirst."

"It is finished."

"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

10 August 2011 at 21:55  
Anonymous venerablejohn said...

With regard to rubber bullets and water cannon, rubber bullets kill people - they have killed plenty of children down the years, Catholics in Nothern Ireland, granted, who's lives clearly have/had little value to the imperial occupiers, but you can't seriously deploy them on the streets of England and not expect deaths. They are the weapon of the South African police, the Israeli Army use on Palistinians and various Middle East and Far East dictators.
Water Cannon is useful when dispersing large crowds concentrated into a small area who won't move on, they are slow and cumbersom and would be completely inadequate against fast moving small groups of young men running around.


"Proddy Dog said...
There are no protestant murder gangs - only self-defence groups."

Welcome to planet earth, will you be staying long or is this just a short trip?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shankhill_Butchers

10 August 2011 at 21:58  
Anonymous Proddy Dog said...

Any comments on Claudy or just ignoring the facts?

10 August 2011 at 22:01  
Anonymous venerablejohn said...

Proddy Dog said...
Any comments on Claudy or just ignoring the facts?

Catholics died at Claudy, the fact that you seem to be listing The Sack of Magdeburg as some kind of "Catholic" attrocity, tells us all we need to know about your grasp of history.

10 August 2011 at 23:12  
Blogger len said...

Stating and restating the problem is of no value unless it reveals the solution, which in all cases the solution is ...Jesus Christ, to apply His principles and moral code to ourselves and to others in Society.

Until such a time as people are prepared to go through the transformation process of being 'born again', from above, by the Spirit of God there must be a means of keeping the 'fallen nature' of man in check.
The only means of keeping those disposed towards lawlessness in check is fear of retribution.

Our Society in the interest of 'human rights' have removed all sense of personal responsibility and respect for authority from 'lawless elements' and we are now suffering the affects of this.There is no fear of retribution and and this leads to criminal activity without restraint.

For those in' gangs'(even those gangs of a religious nature) their only loyalty is to' the gang 'which overrides all else, a subculture which exists outside of society, has its own 'morality' and no respect for those which they perceive to be different to them.

11 August 2011 at 08:23  
Anonymous LJHills said...

Individualism to blame? No, a culture in which responsibility has been subcontracted to the state; a culture in which politicians are lavishlyrewarded irrespective of the consequences of their actions or their penchant for indulging themselves at the taxpayers expense; a culture in which the antisocial behaviour is subsidised and the breeding habits of those least likely to raise responsible offspring, is subsidised.

11 August 2011 at 09:44  
Blogger huffward said...

Oh dear, you'd think we were living under a dictatorship. Blair signed up for EU human rights, and how many times was he voted back into power? Local councils stuff themselves with race advisors and and other PC drones, but how many people bother to turn out and vote them down?
The responsibility lies with a politically apathetic electorate which needs something like the recent riots to shock it out of it's slumber.
But will it? I imagine in a few weeks when the dust has settled it will be business as usual.

11 August 2011 at 10:33  
Blogger Maturecheese said...

YG God may forgive them but I and a lot of others certainly won't. We have had to sit back and watch our country be destroyed by the very people tasked to serve and protect it.

11 August 2011 at 12:23  
Anonymous tony b said...

Quiet Man. I see. Now the riots are my fault. Who exactly is failing to add anything useful to the discussion? I am not a left winger.

11 August 2011 at 13:23  
Blogger huffward said...

YG, I tend to agree with maturecheeze. Forgiveness must be earned and we debase it by bestowing it too easily. Repentance must comprise restitution, and I think it perfectly reasonable to say, "I shall not consider forgiving you until you have made restitution for your crimes".

11 August 2011 at 13:40  
Anonymous A quiet man said...

Carry On Tony, it worked for your namesake.

11 August 2011 at 17:45  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

maturecheese and Huffward

I think God may disagree if my reading of the Prodigal Son is correct. Forgiveness is never "earned". How can it be? God simply forgives and welcomes us back; it is for us humble ourselves before Him and ask for forgiveness, offering restitution for any harm done.

As I say, I may have misunderstood the parable. And, of course, a secular approach would be different requiring restitution and reparation.

11 August 2011 at 17:49  
Blogger huffward said...

Dodo, I've always regarded The Prodigal Son as being more about fatherly love than forgiveness and a metaphor for the love of God for those who stray and return.
But you're right, I'm thinking in a secular context, more precisely in an institutional context. I'm also thinking that it is spiritually much healthier for the offender to make reparation than not. Forgiveness can too easily become a cliché, and mantra, a mere form of words. Glib forgiveness might make the forgiver feel good, but I wonder how much it helps the offender to feel truly forgiven and repatriated into the society he had offended.

11 August 2011 at 20:25  
Anonymous Tony B said...

Quiet man - live up to your name and shut yer gob.

12 August 2011 at 09:27  
Blogger Alissa1989 said...

Jon,

The deplorable actions you mention have generally been carried out by those who have not genuinely repented but are what are sometimes called cultural Christians, not authentic Christians. Cultural Christians go along with their culture's worldview, maybe they have some belief, but they aren't committed to following Jesus. Authentic Christians are: they love Jesus, believe the things he said, put all their trust in him and would die rather than give up their faith. As they love God, they want to please him and wouldn't feel happy to live to please themselves alone and then repent on their deathbeds.

Doing that is an unacceptably high-risk strategy if you actually believe in damnation. Not everyone has a deathbed, and how could you be sure you would have time to repent?

Therefore, more authentic Christians, and a culture based on the Bible's teaching, would lead to less rioting.

15 August 2011 at 17:24  

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