Saturday, August 13, 2011

Is it right, fair and just to punish the uneducated?

Politicians have been united over the past few days in their assertion that there is simply 'no excuse' for the recent riots: it was criminality 'pure and simple'. And yet, unwittingly perhaps, the Prime Minister has provided the most significant excuse when he hit out at the rioters for having 'a complete lack of responsibility, a lack of proper parenting, a lack of proper upbringing, a lack of proper ethics, a lack of proper morals'.

For the Greeks, the foundations of corrective justice and a legitimate rule of law lay in an education system which delivered truthful instruction and reasoned persuasion before force. Socratic moral and political thought rests in a principle of fidelity to reason, which demands respect for reason and for human beings as rational agents. It follows from this that reason and evidence must be used in moving others to action and belief.

If respect for persons and of private property is inherent in a just or legitimate rule of law, governments cannot establish a general right to punish lawbreakers without providing for the education of all citizens , which is to say an effective education which encourages them to be rational, exhorts them to pursue virtues, and urges them to be moral: an education which provides them with the reasons for laws being as they are.

By providing for the adequate education of some citizens and not others (as in many inner-city comprehensives), a government might establish a right to punish the former when they commit offences but not the latter, and in that event is obliged as a requirement of justice to discriminate between the two in the course of criminal proceedings. Certainly, send the primary school teacher and educated wealthy to prison. But for those youths whose 'lack of responsibility' may be ascribed to 'a lack of proper parenting (and) a lack of proper upbringing', they cannot justly be incarcerated without first being educated. Who is to blame for their 'lack of proper ethics (and) lack of proper morals' if it is not amoral parenting and an unethical system of state education which no longer distinguishes between right and wrong or inculcates a sense of social responsibility?


Blogger Battersea Boy said...

Surely everyone ought to be treated equally under the law?  

Mitigation, on the basis of those matters of fact that are: (a) relevant; and (b) applicable to the defendant; only needs to be advanced prior to sentencing for those who are guilty. 

13 August 2011 at 11:12  
Anonymous martin sewell said...

Wise words as always from Your Grace but I would add that the primary burden of responsibilty must lie with those who have, for four decades, eroded one set of Societal rules and values ( which did not yield such responses in the young) and set in place the current societal values - which has.

I refer to the liberal cultural elite which has maintained a one way direction of travel in education, welfare, family, penal, and cultural policy for the lifetime of these rioters.

They are encouraged to worship with the cult of the trangressive. They have a hatred of the traditional, the independent, the self reliant, and anything that places responibility for their own failed aspirations, inadequacies or life status on their own shoulders. It is the fault of " the rich" or some embodied " Society" from which they diassociate themselves save for parasitical purposes.

This generation is not an accidental abberation. It was fashioned by the failed ideals of its immediate predecessors.

Welcome to Generation Toynbee.

13 August 2011 at 11:12  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

A man who sends servicemen to pointless deaths in Afghanistan and who steals taxpayers’ money by fiddling his expenses cannot expect to be taken seriously as a moral arbiter.

13 August 2011 at 11:24  
Blogger tangentreality said...

I understand your sentiment, Your Grace, but surely, the inherent intelligence of humanity should be sufficient to account for the actions of an individual? We have morals, ethics and principles, not because we have been conditioned in a school, but because we are intelligent enough to reason and to rationalise our actions, a singular ability among all the other animals on the planet. And it is because of that inherent intelligence, that ability to determine right from wrong, that each individual should also be accountable for their actions.

The people that have committed offences over the last week, regardless of their background or education, were well aware that they were committing crimes. They knew what they were doing was wrong, and they made a conscious choice to do it anyway. And therefore, they deserve to be punished.

13 August 2011 at 11:37  
Blogger len said...

Where does a moral code come from and who defines it?.

Without God`s moral law( the ten commandments)Democracy just doesn`t work.

The 'moral code' of the Secular world the Bill Of Human Rights just doesn`t work, in fact it works against the Justice system rendering if toothless.

13 August 2011 at 11:39  
Anonymous philip walling said...

Our society has created these young people and is now outraged (and apparently surprised) that they turn and attack it.

This is what worries me more than the riots, that the left/liberals will now show us the reverse of their coin and come down in unjust fury on the people their policies have created.

We once had a lefty neighbour who bought a pup which he brought up according to the usual lefty nostrums. As it grew it worked its way up the family, biting the youngest child first, then the other three in turn, then his wife, and then when it bit the lefty, in a towering rage, he took it to the vet and had it put down.

13 August 2011 at 11:40  
Anonymous philip walling said...

By the way YG, how much have we raised for Mr Biber? I heard on the BBC it was £25,000.

13 August 2011 at 11:42  
Anonymous Elliot Kane said...

I think one has to use the 'reasonable test' here, Your Grace. As in, 'is it reasonable to expect people to understand that what they are doing is wrong'.

Where the law is unclear, over-complicated or not explained, it may not pass the reasonable test.

But is it reasonable to expect that a person from any background should know that stealing other people's stuff (Or burning buildings down!) is wrong? I think it is.

There's no complication. Nothing that could confuse them. Ne grey area involved in smashing your way into a shop and stealing the contents.

So I would say it is right, fair and just to punish the uneducated as long as they are educated enough to know that what they are doing is wrong.

13 August 2011 at 11:44  
Anonymous philip walling said...

Mr tangentreality,

What's 'intelligence'?

Last week I went to a 21st birthday party for a friend's daughter. About 150 young people, mostly privately educated, at proper universities etc. On the way out, in the dark, I caught one young couple filling their car boot with bottles of wine they had sneaked out with.
I could tell they were 'intelligent' when I spoke to them, but they were still thieving from someone whose hospitality they had accepted and claimed to be friends with.

13 August 2011 at 11:49  
Blogger tangentreality said...

@ Philip Walling:

Intelligence: capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. (

Ergo, inherent intelligence allows us to derive and grasp self-evident truths: that to be deprived of one's life or one's property is wrong. And therefore, to deprive another of their life or property is also wrong.

The situation you describe reinforces my point. The young couple knew what they were doing was wrong, otherwise they would not have made any attempt at subterfuge. Likewise, the rioters knew what they were doing was wrong - otherwise they would not cover their faces to avoid identification.

13 August 2011 at 11:59  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Blimey. His Grace becomes Left Wing for the day. :O

13 August 2011 at 12:17  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There are two sorts of deprived youth in my experience: those who are so deprived that they lay a babies in dark rooms, underneath TV sets. They blossom, I have found, with love, care and concern. They may have hidden gifts to give us. Then there are the criminal youth, alert and spry, who may not have suffered such deprivations but come worship Mammon and just want things without working for them. They are petty criminals, brazen, immoral and bullying and look down on those who are honest hardworkers. You need a diverse response: no one size fits all.

13 August 2011 at 12:22  
Anonymous philip walling said...

Mr tangentreality,

One of my points is that they were argaubly worse than the looters who hadn't accepted anyone's hospitality, and the other is that 'intelligence' didn't stop them from doing it.

Also they didn't try too hard not to be seen, and their actions did not outrage their young confederates any where near as much as they did me, and they are not shunned by their friends for what they did, rather, the response has been, that's what happens at parties.

The young are the beneficiaries of a generalised reduction in the understanding of right and wrong, and they genuinely do not understand. Oh they grasp the big things, like murder, but they don't really understand the difference in the little things that make civilisation work, like using the photocopier at work, or lying to get what you want at a lowish level, or shoplifting, or keeping any property you find in the street.

What is happening is the steady erosion of moral virtue at the edges, working its way inexorably to the middle, aided admirably by certain public figures and 'opinion formers'.

There is moral breakdown from top to bottom and the only difference is the mode of expression: looting at the bottom, vast unjustifiable salaries and pensions at the top, and grubby little MPs in the middle.

This is very dangerous, because unless we can recover, from within ourselves, the springs of right action, someone will arise who will do it for us from without.
Then God help us all.

13 August 2011 at 12:26  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

We start educating them and others by the very process of trial and punishment.

Yes, the State is failing its citizens, young and old. We know this and the reasons are complex. However, in days gone by when there was no 'welfare state' did the young behave like this? Did their parents fail them?

Some young people do not know how to live, they lack a sense of respect for others, yet we cannot treat them indifferently by ignoring anti-social acts. They will have to be shown how to live. Not necessarily with aggression but with as much understanding as their circumstances allow.

No, the absence of an education, in the widest sense, does not mean they should not be punished. However, the punishment must no be purely to exact revenge and rtribution. It must be restorative, yes. It should also aim to be rehabilitative too. It should also send a clear signal to all of us that rioting is unacceptable and the State will defend its citizens from this.

13 August 2011 at 12:53  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

'...governments cannot establish a general right to punish lawbreakers without providing for the education of all citizens...

I note, Cranny, that you insert the word 'for' after 'providing'. The state providing for education is not the same, presumably, as the state providing education. Hmmm..

However, the burden of your argument seems to place the responsibility for educating on the state. In other words, your solution is statist: more power to the state.

Are you -- even you --- unable to see that the provision of education should have nothing to do with the state, any more than the provision of food, clothing, helath care, housing or transport?

On the basis of your argument, would you accept that rioting was excusable in times before the provision of compulsory education? Do you not imply that the state had no right to punish rioters before the 1944 Education Act (or whenever)?

The fact is that the state has lamentably failed in the provision of education, just as it failed in the motor industry. The solution is therefore not more and better state education, but less state education, reducing to no state education.

Let the state do what the state should do, and leave to parents the business of nuturing their children.

13 August 2011 at 12:56  
Anonymous Philip said...

While there may be a case for advocating tougher punishments for those who should know better, the role of authorities is to restrain wrongdoing for the good and protection of society, and that means punishments that deter. HG would know the NT Scriptures on this - I don't see that education is specified as a determinant of punishment.

13 August 2011 at 12:59  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

Mr DanJ0 (@12:17): blimey indeed!

13 August 2011 at 12:59  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

"Are you -- even you --- unable to see that the provision of education should have nothing to do with the state, any more than the provision of food, clothing, helath care, housing or transport?"

Mr Anabaptist,

Are you - even you - unable to grasp the very point you emphasise, and distinguish between the state providing education and the state providing for education?

13 August 2011 at 13:07  
Blogger The Minister for Public Enlightenment said...

Your Grace,

Let us not undermine the foundations of English law even with noble intent.
Ignorance of the law has never been accepted as a defence.
One cannot plead a poor background and education to absolve criminality.
Either the law has been broken or it has not.
Poor parenting and educational failure are irrelevant.

Background and deprivation are only a consideration in sentencing. It is then that mercy may wrestle with justice.

Sadly, the New Labour ideologues responsible for the reckless social experimentation that primed the recent orgy of destruction will probably escape any retribution whatsoever.

13 August 2011 at 13:09  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

Touche, Cranny? I'm not so sure. The general tenor of your posting seems to imply pretty strongly a call for more effective state education. I quoted your words back at you because they seemed to me to be little more than a get-out clause in case of criticisms such as mine.

Let other readers decide.

13 August 2011 at 13:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace

The Inspector General observes that most other (perhaps all) European nations place a high regard on eduction and achievement.
Not England.

He has watched with alarm at how sexy it has become to be seen as thick. Young people who can barely string a sentance together, bless them, abound our screens, as if what's in their empty heads matters anyway.

IG places the blame on that communist daily, the BBC. They have taken young black people into their hearts. The very people who,
due to their low IQ, need educating most of all. Black people who rejoice in their ignorance, and find it liberating, egged on by BBC producers with sociology degrees. And what field of science and the arts are we talking about - mainly the black interpretation of music and dance. They have nothing else.

The BBC sees multicultarism as the future. But's it the end for the rest of us. Cities inhabitated by 'epsilons'...

13 August 2011 at 13:41  
Blogger English Pensioner said...

Large numbers clearly were educated, teaching assistant, university student, social worker, etc.

However, anyone born in this country has had the opportunity of an acceptable education, and it is not the schools in these areas that are the problem, but the pupils.
There is an old saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink". This applies very much to education, where not only do large numbers refuse to take advantage of the opportunity, they also prevent others from doing so.
It is not the schools, it is government policy which effectively prevents any punishment and so prevents the teachers from doing their job.
We need some new form of Borstal schools to which uneducated offenders can be sent for an indefinite period until they have reached an appropriate educational standard. Tough conditions might then provide an incentive to learn and get released.

13 August 2011 at 13:46  
Anonymous The Justice of the Peace said...

It will be interesting to note if a certain middle class Sunday Times columnist apologises for the antics of the current rioters as she did for the public order convicted son of a friend when he was jailed for a not dissimilar offence recently.

13 August 2011 at 13:56  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

YG is a bleeding-heart liberal.

That's the attitude that got England into the rough in the first place: trying to mitigate or explain away the responsibility of those who---of their own free will---break the law. Sometimes bad behavior is just that: it can't be psychoanalyzed away.

The UK has been spending gobs of money to educate these people, and they refuse to be educated. Is it a pity? Yes. Are they still liable for their activities under the law? Yes? Especially since not everyone who is equally disadvantaged chooses evil.

Romans I:20-23 tells us all we need to know about fallen humanity.

13 August 2011 at 14:00  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

The State surely has a role in ensuring the proper moral and social development of its people.

How that is best achieved is another matter and a whole other debate. Leave it all to the individual? Provide a safety net? The State provides everything?

Democracy requires a literate and intelligent electorate .. innit. Civil society requires people who behave, well, with civility .. innit. The economy requires not only a work ethic but the right skills .. innit. The health of a nation needs people to be able to access health and social care .. innit. Without the above we will have short and brutish lives.

When all of the above is usurped by the State and become "rights" without the accompanying "responsibilities" we run into difficulties.

The basic building block of our society is the family. When the family fails society fails. In deciding what the State should and should not do, the impact on the family must be given full weight.

13 August 2011 at 14:03  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Cameron decries the lack of proper parenting but the male perception of proper parenting differs between communities. In 2005, the US Census Bureau found that 56 per cent of Black children lived in single-parent families mostly headed by mothers, compared to 22 per cent of White children. If similar figures pertain here, I wish Cameron luck in modifying Afro-Caribbean culture.

13 August 2011 at 14:05  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Cameron also described the EDL as sick, which group should be sent for education, education, education first :-D

13 August 2011 at 14:20  
Blogger tangentreality said...

@ Philip Walling:

I agree with you in that the morals of our society are steadily being eroded. I disagree on the reasons - you have contended that it is effectively erosion through ignorance, that these people do not have the intelligence to understand what they are doing is wrong, and that they are effectively amoral - they are completely absent of principles.

My contention is that, being human, they are well aware of conventional morals, because they are self-evident truths. The problem is that they consciously choose to ignore them because their desire for self-indulgence outweighs any any other considerations for them. This is not simply amorality - a moral vacuum - but immorality - deliberately doing something they know to be wrong. And for that, they deserve to be punished.

You are correct about the inevitable consequences if we do not stop this decline, however - chaos.

13 August 2011 at 14:23  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Bred in the bone (14:20)—Not just sick, the sickest. He said: ‘I have described some parts of our society as sick, and there is none sicker than the EDL.’ See here, Column 1086.

13 August 2011 at 14:31  
Anonymous Atlas shrugged said...

Although his Grace has not actually said so, the implication of his post shows us where to ultimately look to find the real cause of, and ONLY answer to, our problems.

It is not to be usefully found by looking at our politicians, our political parties, or even at our elitist establishment, the cause of our problems can only be found by us all looking in the mirror.

It is perfectly OK Cameron blaming past governments, individuals and their parents, but the real culprits are the people as a whole for allowing this situation to become endemic within our entire society. Cameron's statements on this issue are simply smoke and mirrors.

I also consider that our government has no rightful authority, as we and they, are now being dictated to by unelected, therefore unaccountable establishment appointed place-men operating from Ivory Towers somewhere in Belgium or France.

The irony is that we currently have the first majority national government we have had since the last world war.

We have two choices get a collective grip ASAP, or try much harder getting our own individual houses in order.

IMO society as a whole is well past its sell by date, and therefore saving. Therefore it is every man women and family for themselves, and screw society as a whole.

(Others may be of a different opinion, as is their right.)

This realization of our true situation will most inevitably lead to first compulsory ID cards, closely followed by compulsory ID micro-chipping of the entire population.

The people cannot say that they were not warned, because I and many others have certainly done our upmost to do so.

Statistical comparison with Europe, are of little value, as Europe is undoubtedly infected by the exact same disease, and for the exact same reasons. Certain indicators may show that things are selectively worse here, but the same things are also bad and getting worse all over the entire continent of Europe, and the industrialized world as a whole.

Many, indeed a majority of our domestic and European political, banking , and industrial class have now been shown to be utterly CORRUPT to a greater or slightly lesser extent. Much worse, they been clearly shown to have got clean away with it, and are still getting away with it.

Ultimately our problem is that WE the people have allowed them to do so, and are still persistent in paying our taxes, so that they can happily continue to take the proverbial piss.

Therefore, Cameron, Blair, Brown, or Milliband blaming ordinary people for effectively helping themselves to the cash register, when they and their bosses have been clearly caught doing so for many hundreds, indeed thousands of years is hypocrisy of the highest order.

Which cannot therefore lead us to anywhere worth going.

13 August 2011 at 14:32  
Anonymous WannabeAnglican said...

I'm sorry, but it does not take much education to know that what the rioters did was criminal and wrong.

I did not expect to see such tripe from Your Grace. I did not expect him to join the excuse-making, hand-wringing brigade.

13 August 2011 at 14:33  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace

The Inspector General proposes that all black prisoners, of negro lineage, be given 5 days a week, 6 hours a day, education. They have so much to learn, and IG suspects, it will be an effective deterrent towards re-offending (or so IG would like to think...).

13 August 2011 at 14:44  
Anonymous carl jacobs said...

Am I the only person who read this post as dripping with irony? Really now.

"But for those youths whose 'lack of responsibility' may be ascribed to 'a lack of proper parenting (and) a lack of proper upbringing', they cannot justly be incarcerated without first being educated."

It's a back-handed slap at the idea of external influences being the driving force in moral behavior. The above statement illustrates the point perfectly. How many people take this point seriously? But won't the Left use variations on this exact same theme to explain the riots? Won't they immediately point to 'external root causes?' Well, here is your external root cause, and the logically ridiculous implications that follow from accepting it. It's not about education. It's about [oppression/economics/racism/random cause du jour] that will be used by Leftists to explain why the 'system' they seek to overthrow is really at fault.

A good author can so accurately replicate the voice of his opponent that people think he has become his opponent. Isn't that what has happened here?


13 August 2011 at 14:57  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

My attitude too Carl Jacobs (13 August 2011 14:57)

I just assumed everyone was playing along with His Grace...

13 August 2011 at 15:01  
Anonymous WannabeAnglican said...

Oh dear. Have I been taken in by satire so effective I did not realize it was such?

13 August 2011 at 15:07  
Anonymous Shacklefree said...

We have a conscience and rioters know that what they are doing is wrong. If we do not prosecute that gives them a very clear message that they cannot be criticized. We see it in schools with disruptive pupils being moved to another class. That tells the child the teacher is at fault making future delinquent behaviour more likely. That is the policy that has been followed for the last generation and more in our schools. However to solve the problem we have to look at re-establishing a true ethic in society. To what extent for example is the paedophile and sex trafficking problem a result of our policy of condoning ‘soft’ porn. The message we have given is that it is OK so we as a society are to an extent culpable because we allowed this to happen. We see filth on the BBC and what do we do? It is one thing to have compassion on the difficulties which people have but we have been manipulating the Christian philosophy on which our society was based for a long time now and we no longer have a cohesive ethic. We have legalized killing by abortion, unfaithfulness by divorce, addiction by artificial birth control and gambling by the stock market system. Even after the current financial disaster I notice that banks are now considering the relative pros and cons of short selling gambling. Even after the incidence of family breakdown we are still as a society in favour of divorce. Even after the increase of STDs we still are not prepared to say that promiscuity is wrong but instead say “If you are going to have sex, make sure it’s safe sex. . How many of us complained at the practice of using creating embryos in the lab so that we could harvest stem cells and then destroy the embryos? When we abandon the laws of God we end up having to live with the consequences.

13 August 2011 at 15:32  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Cheers for that Johnny.

Calling everyone sick is hardly going to aid him in his campaign to clamp down on sicknote Britain.

13 August 2011 at 15:44  
Anonymous Kay said...

Hmmm...weren't the Greek people rioting not too long ago?

As for education. The banksters, politicians, big corporations such as, pharma, oil, and sorry to say, so called religious bodies, etc are very educated and so they rob, steal, loot and pillage in a very educated way. Have any of them been held accountable for the global collapse? So here we have it. Educated thugs are treated much differently than uneducated thugs. But when all is said and done if you behave with no conscious thought for your victims then perhaps you are a thug! So I would suggest taking some responsibility to perhaps raise your consciousness levels.

13 August 2011 at 16:00  
Blogger Bill Sticker said...

Cranmer, regarding your headline; "Is it right, fair and just to punish the uneducated?"

I would say yes, but with the caveat; "Only if they won't learn". The Educated offender should be punished doubly because they should know better.

13 August 2011 at 16:11  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The Child is Father of the Man."

13 August 2011 at 16:21  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Kay said..."and sorry to say, so called religious bodies"

Don't be sorry Kay, I was just re-reading Ralph Ellis's book King Jesus the other day and I had to laugh, when I came across chapter (VI High Priest Jesus)

He writes: the CIA spent many hundreds of millions of dollars investigating the possibilty of mind control, but they would have done better to send a few operatives to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Wailing Wall and the Ka'ba in Mecca; for the mind control techinques used there have been honed and refined over thousands of years, and are suprisingly and quite bafflingly effective.

13 August 2011 at 17:01  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

According to modern research the brain is 'wired' by the age of 3 years to determine the degree of empathy and consequential morality each of us has. If we receive love, stability and security as a child we will have a solid foundation to reach our potential as human beings.

Most of us will have some moral capacity that may be strengthened or weakened by later experiences and through the choices we make; some will have it in abundance; and others not at all.

In this context 'free will' is a slippery concept.

Most of us will contend on a daily basis to do 'the right thing'. We will struggle against our innate selfishness. Our characters will form through the nurturing of good habits. At times will we behave immorally. A small few will be blessed with the capacity to just be good and act honourably at all times. Yet others will be cursed with a disregard for others and an inability to take their needs into account. They will be amoral.

If the basic capacity to understand right from wrong because empathy for others and a conscience is missing, mainly because of extreme abuse and neglect in childhood, it appears there is little anyone can do.

Do we all have a God given, inbuilt sense of morality? Science appears to contradict this.

13 August 2011 at 17:03  
Anonymous Atlas shrugged said...

This is not a right/left wing issue, for these are both illusionary concepts.

There is no left or right, there is only right or wrong, us or them, good or evil.

Right and good, being best defined as TRUTH and honesty, wrong and evil as lies, and deceit.

It is clearly illogical that either left or right wing thinking people could possibly be either wholly right or wholly wrong. Yet this is precisely what the majority do believe, because they have been long since mind controlled into believing such clearly divisive nonsense.

Our problems greatly stem from believing in the lies we have been told all of our entire lives.

One of the greatest lies of all is the origins and ultimate aims of socialism.

Socialism is EVIL, largely because it is based on lies and dishonesty, not because of the vast majority of people who vote for socialist parties, or consider themselves to be socialists.

Socialism is not EVIL because it tends to encourage people to think in terms of community, or the brotherhood of mankind. For these concepts are basic human emotions, and are as essential for the happiness, prosperity, and freedom of the individual, as individualism itself.

A dependent individual is no better then a captive slave. Or worse still a piece of live-stock ultimately destined for slaughter, or pointless self-sacrifice.

The only answer socialism has so far come up with for the ending of poverty, is GENOCIDE of one form or another.

Socialism is not at all what it claims to be.

Socialism is the invented meal ticket of the very people who it is supposed to oppose. Which is the establishment, defined as the owners of our industrial and banking corporations.

As such socialism and all that has ever gone with it is one of the greatest methods by which the establishment controls both sides of all political debate. Thus structures society, as well as the national and international policies enacted by national, and pan-national governments to its own exclusive advantage. it achieves this by a variety of secretive committees and sub groups which work at a much higher level then elected governments, or political parties

However, it is true to say that these people do not consider themselves to be EVIL, indeed they consider that they are simply doing their God given job of ruling over the destiny of mankind. To a ruling elite, the end always justifies the means, however EVIL those means may be.

These people set up and financed the Russian Revolution and have been secretly conspiring with the powers that to this very day continue to control it, ever since.

We were allies with Stalinist Russia during the second world war for a reason. The Cold War was from the get-go a SCAM, that benefitted neither the people of Russia or that of the western democracies. It did however transfer trillions upon trillions for US to THEM over a period of 45 years.

This Scam had to come to its logical end at some time, that time was now over 20 years ago.

Yet the world is still beset with virtually all of the problems it had 20 years ago, with a few more added on for bad measure.

The reason for this is simple. One great big scam, is now being replaced by several others.

13 August 2011 at 17:15  
Blogger English Viking said...

Your Grace,

You demean yourself by excusing lawless monkeys, instead laying the blame on the over-taxed lawful.

The law of 'Not smashing stuff up', along with the twin brothers 'Thou shalt not set fire to buildings that don't belong to you' and 'Thou shalt not beat people senseless in order to rob them of their iPod' should be written in the heart. It is a lesson that is hard-wired into human consciousness, not learned in a classroom.

Those who riot and loot should be shot. Either during or after the event. Every last man-jack of them.

Pour encourager les autres.

And before you ask, I'd be more than happy to pull the trigger.


13 August 2011 at 17:15  
Blogger English Viking said...

BTW Is it just me, or is Cameron an utter ****?

WV Fists. Really.

13 August 2011 at 17:16  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

English Viking, no it's not just you.
I think we should have a right to bear arms, as do the citizens of the USA. And I truly believe that if we were able to possess guns, most of what happened last week would not have occurred. There may have been a few dead rioters, shot by shop-keepers defending their businesses, but then you pays your money etc.
By the way, even for our atheist followers, I suggest that the 10 Commandments are as relevant today as they were when Moses brought them down from the mountain. And no, I don't think the 'Thou Shalt not Kill' is a contradiction of what I say above.

13 August 2011 at 17:55  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

john in cheshire (13 August 2011 17:55)

There are enough firearms in the hands of criminals as it without them buying (or looting) more from the likes of Argos...

13 August 2011 at 18:39  
Anonymous The expat said...

YG asks a valid moral question, and I am sure that improvement in educational standards will come to be seen as part of the solution to these troubles.

But in the only transcript I have read of an interview with a rioter, the person concerned had carefully weighed up the possible consequences of his actions, and concluded that he risked nothing of note.

He was in no doubt that his actions were "wrong" insofar as they carried a risk of punishment, so I conclude that his education was not insufficient in this regard.

13 August 2011 at 18:42  
Blogger AncientBriton said...

I have to agree with your last statement re-Cameron English Viking. In the current crisis he has come over as a complete opportunist at the same time upsetting the Met in their not-so-finest-hours, and hours, and hours - but at least they got there in the end. As the Acting Commissioner Tim Godwin put it, "As a result of that we were able to nip this in the bud after a few days"!

13 August 2011 at 18:44  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

john in cheshire: "By the way, even for our atheist followers, I suggest that the 10 Commandments are as relevant today as they were when Moses brought them down from the mountain."

You need to look closer at the first four, I think. I agree for the most part about the rest but, hey, they're the kind of thing most societies would come up with, god or no god. That Moses must have been a dab hand with a chisel.

13 August 2011 at 18:50  
Blogger Anoneumouse said...

Above the main entrance to the Old Bailey is inscribed the words,

"Defend the Children of the Poor and Punish the Wrongdoer".

13 August 2011 at 18:54  
Anonymous Atlas shrugged said...

Could it be that these riots are more of a product of 'education' rather then that of a lack of same?

I strongly contend that they are.

Not of course in the subjects of biology or physics etc, but of how the great pyramid of power reflects on themselves, and the environment they find themselves barely existing within.

Logically, one might expect that these people would join some kind of main stream or not so main stream political party or movement through which to further their own interests. We are after all supposed to live in a democracy, and looting is a very serious offense to be convicted of, simply to gain a new pair of Nike trainers, or pointlessly complicated mobile phone.

However the last 15 years has EDUCATED a whole new generation of the underclass to expect nothing but a dole cheque and utterly hopeless state dependancy from self proclaimed 'left-wing' politicians from Ken Livingstone to Tony Blair.

These exact same reasons where largely responsible for the riots and civil disobedience this country suffered from the middle 70's to the middle 80's.

The working, and underclasses, can now clearly see that they have been betrayed by their own supposed mouth-pieces, YET AGAIN. History has indeed repeated itself.

Which is not wholly surprising as we seem determined not to learn from it. Our politicians of course have absolutely no interest in learning from history, because they are one of the very few types of people who greatly benefit from society repeating the same old mistakes, time and time again.

Which is that the state not only cannot look after the interests and ambitions of an individual from cradle to grave, it NEVER EVER had any intention of actually doing so.

Gordon Brown for example spent much of his time as prime minister making as sure as possible that the next incoming government would have as many social problems caused by state dependancy, and as little cash in the bank to help mitigate the vastly inevitable results of such profound cruelty, as possible.

Far from being despised by his own party, for these perfectly immoral Fabian Society inspired acts, these will later be seen as his only great achievements for the future prospects of The Labour Party.

I left school in 1978, when unemployment, and inflation was high, and becoming forever higher. However I was one of the lucky ones, as I understood even then that my future was largely in my own hands, and so could not rely on anyone to help me, least of all the state, the banks, or my community.

Indeed, that as a working class EX socialist, in my eyes, and many years before the coming of a Thatcher government, our BANKSTER owned state had already become my worst possible enemy, and potential nightmare.

Therefore I set up my own company ASAP, which was only a few months after sitting my A levels, and then went about working and saving like my very life depended on doing so, for the next 25 years.

I could be tempted to blame others for not doing the same either then or now. However to do so would be not only most unchristian of me, it would be denying the rather obvious fact that even at the tender age of just 18 I had God given talents for all kinds of things, that the majority of my fellow class mates simply did not posses.

This as well as a sometimes unhealthy obsession with remaining as free and independent of what I saw then, and still see today as a deliberately poverty creating and perpetuating Corporatist Socialist System, as humanly possible.

13 August 2011 at 19:03  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Strong sentiments from Atlas

If anybody thinks it can't get any worse, just wait until 2 million Turks flood here....

13 August 2011 at 19:45  
Anonymous non mouse said...

Brilliant post, which warrants thoughtful response, Your Grace; thank you. Meanwhile, I can only appreciate delightful irony that an expensive education can produce a leader who suggests: it was criminality 'pure and simple'.

Ah well, said the soul: "To the pure, all things are pure."* ... and never mind that "The wicked walk round about" (Ps 11:9, Douay-Rheims).**

Or, as our old scop had it about Grendel's convolutions on the dark moors:
" ne cunnon
hwyder helrunan hwyrftum scriþað" (Beowulf 162/3).
'men know not whither those skilled in the mysteries of hell glide in their turnings about.'

*Titus 1:15 - "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled."
cf also Rom 14:14 (KJV).

** Preceded by: "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried by the fire, purged from the earth, refined seven times.
Thou, O Lord, will preserve us: and keep us from this generation forever" (Ibid 7/8).

13 August 2011 at 20:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"If anybody thinks it can't get any worse, just wait until 2 million Turks flood here...."

But at least we'll have kebabs to die for.

13 August 2011 at 21:00  
Blogger Theo said...

But surely, punishment is providing an education: and the more severe the punishment the more the education is being emphasised.

13 August 2011 at 21:05  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

"But at least we'll have kebabs to die for."

And more Islam, we'll have that to die for too...

13 August 2011 at 21:08  
Blogger Pearl said...

A previous government promoted moral lawlessness maintaining that families, schools and churches were 'the slaughter houses of children' because of their moral constraints and sought to put them in shackles. Baby-boomers are the ultimate 'I' generation and we are reaping its effects.

13 August 2011 at 21:18  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I do wonder if state education is not valued in this country because it is free to the user. I have been to many poor countries and found myself greeted by local children begging for pens/pencils, without which they cannot go to school.

13 August 2011 at 21:21  
Blogger Fulby said...

I disagree with it being the education system's fault. There's at least some examples that show the rioters understood what they were doing was wrong. Listen to this audio clip of young looters being interviewed:

They start by blaming "the cuts", but when pressed admit that it's simply because the government can't stop them. One even says that he has no offences, that the prisons are overcrowded and "nothing's going to happen to me".

When asked about kids younger than themselves looting, the interviewee says it's wrong. The interviewer presses him to the difference between the younger kids and himself, at which point the interviewee admits that what he's doing is wrong.

This isn't some noble savage underclass who don't know better. They knew exactly what they were doing and they did it precisely because the benefits outweighed the potential downsides.

13 August 2011 at 21:58  
Blogger len said...

It is interesting to note some of the different reactions from the same communities with regard to rioting and looting.
Some joined in with the rioting and the looting, others with the clean up operation afterwards.
Some rioters(and looters) were subsequently asked why they were rioting and looting they replied 'because we can'.
This bears out my previous supposition that it was only through fear of the Legal system that kept the 'fallen nature' of those disposed towards lawlessness in check.
Gang members have no regard for the law or authority at all, their only allegiance is to the gang and this is maintained through fear.Fear of rejection, or fear of repercussions from other gang members.
Ours is a broken society, whole sections of society have been alienated and the family unit has been under constant attack from all directions socially, and economically.
Our Christian system of ethics and morals has been under constant attack and the foundations have all but been swept away and in this respect we are beginning to reap what we have sown.

13 August 2011 at 22:14  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

13 August 2011 at 22:15  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Your Grace, your communicant is a card carrying member of the Swivel-eyed Right and defers to no man or woman in this regard. While there is no doubt that education is the solution to the problem of managing a fractious under-class its effect is generational in impact. In other words, for a large number of the rioters, both Blacks and White-Blacks (qv David Starkey) it is already too late. Effective sanctions are required none-the-less and the law is there to be applied.

What concerns this writer is that Dave's proposed collective punishment of rioter's families by eviction from council accomodation won't solve anything. But it will of course make things far worse. Dave rightly talks about family btreakdown and poor parenting as root causes for the problem. Chucking families out on the street absolutely guarantees family breakdown, denial of education and an even more deeply entrenched under-class.

Dave's policy simply opens the way for well financed Islamic charities to step in and provide succour, along with their malign creed. Imagine the possibility of an Islamic Black-White under-class.

No go, indeed.

13 August 2011 at 22:50  
Anonymous chris r said...

Even without the benefit of education, men are, it seems, without excuse before God and therefore without excuse before the law which reflects His commandments:

<< Romans 1 >>
New American Standard Bible
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God ...

28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

13 August 2011 at 22:58  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

Did, as AbC says, our PM hit out at the rioters and provide them with an excuse?

No, I don't believe so. He hit out at parents and our institutions for failing children by allowing this. He was offering an explanation, not an excuse. An explanation that means a long term programme from Government to strengthen parenting is needed.

At the same time DC made it clear rioting was criminality and those involved would be hunted down and punished.

Each rioter after conviction should be sentenced. That sentence should reflect the crime, the harm done and take into account the history, background and circumstances of the perpetrator. The sentence will aim to punish, to deter and to rehabilitate.

That's how we do things in Britain. That's how we apply justice.

13 August 2011 at 23:01  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

Solutions to the problems of managing a fractious (Black and White-Black) underclass and avoiding an even more fractious Black Islamic undercalss.

That's it? No need to seek to remove the underclass? No need to make them less fractious, just manage this? No need to think about why the Black and White-Black subculture is growing in this fractious underclass?

How hidious.

13 August 2011 at 23:10  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Mr Dodo @ 23.10 says 'No need to seek to remove the underclass?'

Well, if you want to deport them you will find plenty of support.

But really, not terribly Christian.

13 August 2011 at 23:27  
Blogger English Viking said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

13 August 2011 at 23:33  
Blogger English Viking said...


I think our armistice is staring to grow thin.

Perhaps you prefer war?

You know I'm game, nob-head.

13 August 2011 at 23:38  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

13 August 2011 at 23:56  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

Feigned or real stupidity un your part?

What I said was:
"That's it? (your soltion) No need to seek to remove the underclass? No need to make them less fractious, just manage this? No need to think about why the Black and White-Black subculture is growing in this fractious underclass?"

It was a question addressed to you about your solution to our present problems - i.e. to manage, contain and control the 'fractious underclass' rather than thinking how to remove it.

As I said, hidious.

14 August 2011 at 00:10  
Blogger English Viking said...


You should read 'The art of war', by Sun Tzu.

Then you would know that your superior arsenal would be your undoing.

Yo ha hagi!

14 August 2011 at 00:18  
Blogger English Viking said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

14 August 2011 at 00:24  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

14 August 2011 at 00:31  
Blogger English Viking said...



14 August 2011 at 00:49  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I recommended Cranmer's blog to an American Lutheran, the other day. If he's visited today, he'll be less than impressed.

14 August 2011 at 01:16  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

English Viking

lol ...

14 August 2011 at 01:47  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

14 August 2011 at 01:50  
Blogger The Anonymous Moderate said...

You don't understand that these youth groups are doing some sick things and they've been doing these things for a while. It's time for punishment but not immoral punishment. Check out my blog when you can.

14 August 2011 at 02:53  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is important to remember not to forget all those other looters who have gotten off scot free in the houses of Parliament and who have, by their example to us all, proved themselves unworthy of their considerable pay.

Apart from all those greedy MP's who seem able to apologise their way out of criminal charges for defrauding the tax payer, there are, of course, those members of the Labour Party who looted our gold reserves and by spending money we did not have, also looted our economy.

Strange that I do not see the police publishing their names and addresses. Oh wait. They earn over £1000 per week and therefore are not poor. Only the poor have 'justice' served on them. The rich, if they ever go to jail at all, get tiny sentences in open prisons.

Then there are all those looting bankers. Only one of which ever got nicked.

Such blatant injustice is almost enough to make one riot.


14 August 2011 at 05:31  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Children are uneducated.

So you're saying they should not be punished?

14 August 2011 at 07:30  
Blogger Harry-ca-Nab said...

So, if we cannot take them off the streets until they have been educated - perhaps a lifelong enterprise with no conclusion - how do you propose that society, i.e. law abiding people, are protected?

Its unfortunate that their parents and their culture has collided with the Left wing dogma decrying families to produce feral black gangs.

Now, after years of British culture being derided and suppressed, poor white people have looked at the respect and preferment given the black community, together with the bizarre welfare incentives militating against normal family structures, and have decided, as David Starkey said, that being black is the preferred option.

14 August 2011 at 09:09  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Harry: "Now, after years of British culture being derided and suppressed, poor white people have looked at the respect and preferment given the black community, together with the bizarre welfare incentives militating against normal family structures, and have decided, as David Starkey said, that being black is the preferred option."

Hmmm, I'm not buying that in the least. Also, I hate the label 'black community' as there isn't a single one. We had at least two very distinct mainstream cultures coming over from the Caribbean and they remain distinct.

What we're actually talking about, I think, is inward-looking sub-cultures. I agree it's about respect but I don't think it's about gaining respect from society. If society as a whole doesn't respect the people you are talking about then potentially a different 'currency' of respect develops internally.

It's not a lot different from the youth sub-cultures that develop every generation, such as mods and rockers or punks, except that these particular ones have criminality built in and seem to endure rather than become embarrassing as one grows older.

14 August 2011 at 09:58  
Anonymous bluedog said...

Mr EV @ 23.33 etc, time for some awkward questions. Can you see the potential problem with a Norwegian resident bragging about his arsenal? Do you not think your post is potentially criminal in its content? If you feel the need to brag about your arsenal, are you the right person to be granted the privilege of a firearms licence? Is it wise to be making these claims on the internet post Breivik? Do you not think that internet surveillance means that the authorities in both UK and Norway may be wondering exactly what goes on in your mind.

Too close to a full moon for that kind of post, old son. Tone it down a bit for the sake of us all.

14 August 2011 at 10:23  
Blogger len said...

Those who call themselves 'Christian'should be part of the solution but it is only too apparent from scanning through some of these posts that some Christians are also part of the problem.

It is when pressure is applied that the thin veneer of the 'Christian' cracks and what is inside is revealed.And this 'inner self' in some cases is not looking too pleasant. I don`t think Christians are doing themselves , the Lord, or H G any favours bringing this blog down to the level of personal insults.

14 August 2011 at 11:38  
Blogger len said...

In 2 Corinthians 5:20 Paul calls us(Christians) to be Ambassadors of Christ. But what does that actually mean?
When we call ourselves 'Christian' people will look to us to see what(and who) we represent and by our actions will judge us.(I know its not PC to judge but everyone does it)
Being an ambassador for Christ does not mean' beating down' everyone into submission or even winning every argument but preaching the Gospel and portraying the attributes of Christ(made in His image)which are

Being kind and compassionate
Challenging what is wrong.
Speaking out for truth.
Refusing to conform to society’s standards.
Having self control.
Doing things only to please God, not man
Thinking of others rather than yourself.

(In expectation for the accusations of being self righteous, Holier than thou, hypocrite etc I also am a 'work in progress' and aspire to do better in all respects.)

14 August 2011 at 12:48  
Anonymous Big Kev said...

I am opposed to incarceration of the perpetrators.You've dealt with troublemakers like this before.
Send them out to interior Australia
as a slave labour force to green and fertilize the arid areas into arable farmland. They wont need reeboks.
We are going to need it soon as our government has sold off 76% to the Chinese already. You owe us anyway!

14 August 2011 at 13:54  
Blogger English Viking said...


You're right, I'm wrong. Again. Sorry. I've deleted it.


Fair point. I've deleted it. Sorry.

14 August 2011 at 15:17  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

English Viking

How is it possible to remove posts once the little trash can has gone? With hindsight, there's a couple of my posts to you I'd want to consider deleting.

I mean no harm, just enjoy the 'cut and thrust' of disagreeing with you. As far as I'm concerned, it isn't meant to be taken too seriously.

14 August 2011 at 16:33  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...


If it helps you needs to be signed into google and then I think you delete your post via the little dustbin on the left. Otherwise you could ask his grace to delete whatever posts you wanted for you, if you asked in a kind way.

14 August 2011 at 16:48  
Blogger English Viking said...


You know I'm all mouth and trousers.

Even so, I should attempt to keep a civil tongue in my head, so I apologise for the crudities.

14 August 2011 at 17:09  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Thankfull it looks like the streets are now back under control and we need to turn now to what to do about this whole mess.

I'm not convinced by the claims of some of those on the left who bleat about 'tory cuts' and how this provides cover for the acts of the rioters. The poverty and underclass was there under labour and labour, it seems, has done very little to address the problem, perhaps making the situation even worse.

The rioters need to be punished according to law, but that is only part of it.

I pray that Christians are moving within these communities as well as the prisons to help these people to turn their life around- by repenting and turning to Jesus.

That is a more effective response than simply throwing more money at the situation.

The change must start from the individual, the community, through God's grace.

14 August 2011 at 17:16  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks all. It's enough to make a person proud of this blog -- again :)

14 August 2011 at 18:13  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

English Viking

I did provoke you so no apology needed. The problem is others misunderstand and may be offended because they've led more sheltered lives. A bit of 'Anglo Saxon' language doesn't offend me.

14 August 2011 at 19:28  
Blogger English Viking said...


Perhaps it is no coincidence that your name is four-lettered?

You are very gracious. Thank you.

14 August 2011 at 19:43  
Anonymous Avram Harwood III said...

Reading the banter between Dodo and English Viking, reminds me of the Northern Ireland Assembly. We will have to start calling them 'the chuckle brothers'. te he.

14 August 2011 at 20:12  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

English Viking
Never thought of that.

Avram - don't rile us!

14 August 2011 at 20:22  
Anonymous Avram Harwood III said...

But it does fit doesn't it - English Viking the ranting anti-Catholic ( the 'Iain Paisley' of the Cranmer blog).

Dodo the 'troll' the chip on his shoulder Catholic (the 'Martin McGuiness' of the Cranmer blog)?

I'm thinking that the Viking-Dodo punch and judy show is just that and they are really know each other in the real world and it is all just an act... hence the phrase -'don't rile us'. The cat has been let out of the bag!

14 August 2011 at 21:23  
Anonymous Avram Harwood III said...

'Avram - don't rile us!'

I'm just suprised at the love fest that has developed over the past 72 hours between yourself and Viking...

14 August 2011 at 21:26  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

Just simple acts of Christian humility in accepting one has not behaved well as one should and seeking to rectify matters. We remain divided on theological, political and social issues.

Please do not compare me to Martin McGuiness. I am a Roman Catholic and not, nor have I ever been, a supporter of the Provisional Irish Republican Army. I do not know if he professes to be a practicing member of the Catholic Church. He is also tee-total, something I most certainly am not!

Punch and Judy show indeed!

14 August 2011 at 22:23  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wonder when the EU will whisper into their lapdog's ear (cameron) that maybe national service and conscription into an EU armed forces might be a good idea.
And of course the gullible public will agree with it not knowing the whole thing has been stage managed.

Nothing happens by accident.

14 August 2011 at 23:08  
Blogger English Viking said...

Martin McGuiness is a murderer who should be shot for treason.

Along with Gerry Adams.

14 August 2011 at 23:08  
Anonymous Corlyss said...

What a stupid question!

14 August 2011 at 23:19  
Blogger Dodo the "Troll" said...

English Viking

Yeah, and that would have helped bring peace to Northern Ireland! More pointless murders and killings on both sides and more bombings of innocent bystanders.

Politics is a messy business.

15 August 2011 at 00:01  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

From an American school lesson ‘plan’

Today, many people think of liberty in terms of licentiousness, that is, the freedom to do whatever one wants. Washington and the other Founders, however, knew that for citizens to live in a free society with limited government, each citizen must be able to control himself; otherwise, we would need a police state -- that is, a large, unlimited government -- to maintain safety and order. According to the Founders (and Abraham Lincoln), there is no right to do wrong. Liberty means being free from external restraints – such as an overpowering and abusive government -- to pursue a decent life for oneself and one’s family. Liberty and happiness are found in doing what is right. As George Washington said in his First Inaugural Address, “there is no truth more thoroughly established than that there exists in the economy and course of nature an indissoluble union between virtue and happiness.” Liberty does not mean being free to squander one’s energies on reckless self-indulgence. Understanding this distinction is what the Founders understood as the moral conditions of freedom.

Of course, if citizens are to pursue what is good, and avoid what is bad or evil, they must know right from wrong. This requires a certain kind of education. In particular it requires moral education, which for the Founders is the core of civic education. In part citizens will learn these things from the laws of the country. As Washington said, again in his First Inaugural address, “the foundation of our national policy will be laid in the pure and immutable principles of private morality.” Laws will discourage certain kinds of actions -- such as criminal behavior, or failing to care for one’s children, for example -- because they are morally wrong. At the same time, the laws will encourage other kind of behavior -- such as encouraging men and women to marry and care for their children -- because they are morally right, and because they have a salutary effect on society.

Another way that citizens will learn about the moral qualities of citizenship is through schooling. The Northwest Ordinance (passed by the same Congress that drafted and passed the First Amendment), the first federal law governing the western territories, provided that “Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.” In other words, one of the purposes of schools, including public schools, is to promote morality. And one of the most important ways it would do that was to promote religion.

Washington understood the connection between religion and morality perhaps as well as any of the Founders. For example, he speaks of the importance of religion and morality in a passage from his Farewell Address:

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism who should labour to subvert these great Pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity."

15 August 2011 at 09:36  
Blogger D. Singh said...

And Your Grace,

Are we now to expect Mr Cameron to speak about the importance of what many of us were taught to memorise by our school teachers?

1. “I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”
2. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my Commandments.”
3. “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.”
4. “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”
5. “Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.”
6. “Thou shalt not kill.”
7. “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
8. “Thou shalt not steal.”
9. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.”
10. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.”

15 August 2011 at 12:10  
Blogger D. Singh said...

When you do not teach children moral values, such as the Ten Commandments (honour thy mother and father, for example, the fifth commandment at the centre), – then our children do not stop believing – they believe in something else:

The Fear

I want to be rich and I want lots of money
I don’t care about clever I don’t care about funny
I want loads of clothes and fuck loads of diamonds
I heard people die while they are trying to find them

And I’ll take my clothes off and it will be shameless
Cuz everyone knows that’s how you get famous
I’ll look at The Sun and I’ll look in the Mirror
I’m on the right track yeah I’m on to a winner

I don’t know what’s right and what’s real anymore
I don’t know how I’m meant to feel anymore
When do you think it will all become clear?
‘Cuz I’m being taken over by The Fear

Life’s about film stars and less about mothers
It’s all about fast cars concussing each other
But it doesn’t matter cause I’m packing plastic
and that’s what makes my life so fucking fantastic

And I am a weapon of massive consumption
And its not my fault it’s how I’m programmed to function
Now I’m not a saint but I’m not a sinner
Now everything’s cool as long as I’m gettin’ thinner

Lily Allen

16 August 2011 at 08:59  

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