Sunday, August 28, 2011

The Stand: Christians for Israel


His Grace has been asked to publicise The Stand, an event of peaceable assembly (so the Home Secretary cannot ban it) organised by Mordecai Voice to take place on Tuesday 13th September, 3-5pm at Old Palace Yard, Westminster:
As many of you are aware, the Palestinian Authority is evidently going to put forth a resolution to be voted by the UN in September this year (some are saying the 20th). This is a frightening development and one I know will have huge implications for the nations of the world. As a result the Israeli government has reached out to ICEJ for Christian support! We want to respond to this call.

These are urgent times I'm sure you'll agree. Mordecai Voice would like to join with the efforts of many other fantastic organisations in praying and seeking the Lord's face regarding this development, so that we in the UK (especially the Church!) will not be party to what is happening. Therefore because of the urgent nature of what is upcoming we are going to do another STAND for/with Israel from the UK church as we did in July. We have liaised with the police who will again be working with us to ensure another successful and impacting event. They have suggested Old Palace Yard, right outside Westminster and the Houses of Parliament will be the best place to get the maximum impact and to get the most public, politician and media views. The date for this key event will be Tuesday 13th September, from 3.00-5.00pm and will be another chance for us to show that we, as UK Christians, love, support and believe in the scriptural promises for the Jewish people and Israel. We will publicly pray, proclaim scriptural truths and prophecies and worship the Lord as we so powerfully did outside the Israeli embassy in July. We have chosen this date to coincide with others who are doing key things.

Please pass this info on as a matter of urgency. Although one month seems short notice, we have recently conversed with an excellent organisation in Holland that managed to get hundreds of people to publically support Israel with just 2 days notice and I believe that we can 'gather the troops' to be in force, in even greater numbers than July. Please book your time off work, make preparations and inform me as soon as possible of your involvement at this key event and pass on this info to all you know to be Christian supporters of Israel and God's agendas in these last times. Please bring your banners again (which were so awesome in July – the banners were shown around the Jewish world via the media, and will be seen again). Banners of love and support for/with Israel NOT AGAINST the Muslim/Palestinian peoples. Our mandate is clear; to be publically FOR and WITH Israel, not AGAINST anyone, for our battle is against powers and principalities, not flesh and blood (people). Banners proclaiming Scriptural promises for Israel regarding their land and Jerusalem will also be relevant.

Please spread the word to your contacts and RSVP via the advanced contact form or through mordecaivoice@hotmail.co.uk, as a matter of urgency so we can have an idea of numbers for co-ordination purposes, for this key day. If you would like leaflets to hand out at your Church/meetings/prayer groups etc please let me know as soon as possible and we will hurry them out to you.

69 Comments:

Blogger bluedog said...

Your Grace

Any half-decent US President would shoot down this proposal by the PA before it gets to to the UN. But then the US President is more cool than decent. That the PA is apparently prepared to risk humiliation suggests they may already be sure of success. It only takes the US to abstain rather than veto and Israel is struck by a deadly blow.

Of course, Barack Hussein Obama is about to make another visit to Indonesia, his childhood home and the world's most populous Muslim nation. You can hear him now, 'Oh what a good boy I've been!'

Obama will win a holiday for four in Iran at this rate.

28 August 2011 at 10:42  
Blogger Span Ows said...

I will be in the UK and staying with friends within the M25 bubble; so I shall endeavour to attend.

28 August 2011 at 11:20  
Blogger Gallovidian said...

Star of David superimposed on the cross of St George. Yep, that's about it.

28 August 2011 at 12:08  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

I hope it rains...

28 August 2011 at 12:22  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I can't see the point. What will a few hundred people gathering for a demo in London achieve at the UN?

28 August 2011 at 13:19  
Blogger Ahab`s Leg said...

I am sure Israel supporters will be grateful to all those taking part but a question has been seeping through the recesses of my mind; is your support based upon the scriptures and your interpretation thereof or on a fundamental belief in the rightness [not righteousness] of Israel`s cause?

28 August 2011 at 13:34  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Gods agendas my arse.

International Zionism has nothing to do with Christ.

28 August 2011 at 13:37  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Aheb'sLeg

A good question!

Is there a problem with Palestine seekinf UN support? It seems so.

'Mordecai Voice' sees a wicked international plot afoot to annihilate the Jews.

Since 1948 the 'Mordeai' of the Old Testament represents the prophetic voice speaking to 'Esther'. Today she is figuratively the Bride of Christ. Wicked Islamists are calling for the destruction of all Jews in Israel and are supported by wicked heads of state, heads of terrorists organisations and wicked religious leaders. These people regularly meet to plan an atrocity against Israel. They are supported by a wicked media who wade-in with anti-Semitic rhetoric in the guise of 'legitimate' criticism of Israel.

Mordecai's challenge today it seems is to stand with and support Israel, and speak against this raging anti-Semitism. If not we will miss out on salvation. There will be no revivals, no outpourings, no blessing. God will raise-up another another nation and our nations will perish. Financial collapse, floods and earthquakes will pale in comparison to what is coming as the Lord's return draws ever closer.

Me, I don't buy this analysis and will not be attending the rally.

28 August 2011 at 14:13  
Blogger Elby the Beserk said...

"the Palestinian Authority is evidently going to put forth a resolution to be voted by the UN in September this year"

It would be easier to make a judgement on this were one to know what the resolution is. As it stands, I can't.

28 August 2011 at 14:15  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Elby the Beserk

Palestine wants the United Nations to accept the 'State of Palestine' as a member with defined territory that includes all of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.

This would place Israel in an awkward situation as, if accepted, she would then be occupying land belonging to a fellow United Nations member. Land Israel expects to keep in any two-state solution.

28 August 2011 at 14:35  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Is it possible not to be anti-Semitic, but to just loathe Zionists ?? Because that’s where the Inspector finds himself...

Is there a jew in the house to answer this....

28 August 2011 at 14:38  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector General

There are Christian Zionists too who could offer an answer.

28 August 2011 at 14:43  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo

The Inspector suspects he already knows the answer just as he was typing out the last of the question...

Probably, “If you are not for us, you are against us”

We'll see if we get a response...

28 August 2011 at 14:48  
Blogger English Viking said...

The UN is a criminal organisation, the main purpose of which seems to be to give the US a veneer of legality in its pursuit of numerous wars over oil.

I hope they don't attempt to validate a bunch of terrorist thugs as a nation, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

28 August 2011 at 14:55  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

A UN resolution only matters if there is some major power somewhere that is willing to enforce the resolution. The UN after all is a building in NYC. It has no power. It has no authority. It has no mechanism to establish its proclamations. The UN is in fact a creature of its member states (actually the permanent members of the Security Council) and can only beg members states for any resources required.

So then let's assume the UN passes its silly resolution. Then what? Will the Israelis simply submit and withdraw? No, that won't happen. The Israelis will keep doing what they have been. Will the US stop supporting Israel? No, that won't happen either. Will some major power somewhere invade Israel to enforce the will of the UN? It is to laugh. So then what changes? Nothing. It's a propaganda victory for the Palestinians and nothing more. You can file this new resolution with Resolution 242. It will have the same impact.

The reality is this. The Israelis won't do anything to compromise their own security, and no one is going to make them. The UN can go pound sand with its resolutions for all the good they will do. OK, I could suggest an alternate proper usage for a UN resolution, by why be indiscreet?

carl

28 August 2011 at 15:06  
Blogger Man with No Name said...

Theology and prophecy is an uncertain foundation for offering political support to any nation.

Martin Luther's 'On Jews and their Lies' was supposed based on the Lord's Word too!

"In Deuteronomy 13:12 Moses writes that any city that is given to idolatry shall be totally destroyed by fire, and nothing of it shall be preserved. If he were alive today, he would be the first to set fire to the synagogues and houses of the Jews."

"Nor dare we make ourselves partners in their devilish ranting and raving by shielding and protecting them, by giving them food, drink, and shelter, or by other neighborly acts."

"What are we poor preachers to do meanwhile? In the first place, we will believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is truthful when he declares of the Jews who did not accept but crucified him, "You are a brood of vipers and children of the devil."

"Now let me commend these Jews sincerely to whoever feels the desire to shelter and feed them, to honor them, to be fleeced, robbed, plundered, defamed, vilified, and cursed by them, and to suffer every evil at their hands -- these venomous serpents and devil's children, who are the most vehement enemies of Christ our Lord and of us all. And if that is not enough, let him stuff them into his mouth, or crawl into their behind and worship this holy object. Then let him boast of his mercy, then let him boast that he has strengthened the devil and his brood for further blaspheming our dear Lord and the precious blood with which we Christians are redeemed. Then he will be a perfect Christian, filled with works of mercy for which Christ will reward him on the day of judgment, together with the Jews in the eternal fire of hell!"

28 August 2011 at 15:16  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

English Viking

The UN is a criminal organisation, the main purpose of which seems to be to give the US a veneer of legality in its pursuit of numerous wars over oil.

The authority by which the US possesses the right to make war is found in the US Constitution. The US is a sovereign nation and doesn't need any external authority to provide a 'veneer of legality' for its decisions. There is no temporal sovereign over the nations.

carl

28 August 2011 at 15:25  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

The private Rockefeller eugenics agenda, setting the World up for a Holocaust under the UN flag, neatly fits in with the Zionist Christian agenda, which requires an Armagidion to bring about Christs return.

Alger Hiss eat your heart out, David Koresh could not have dreamt this up.

Look at the brainwashed masses.

28 August 2011 at 15:28  
Blogger English Viking said...

Carl,

Yee-hah!

28 August 2011 at 16:39  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

"Is it possible not to be anti-Semitic, but to just loathe Zionists ?? Because that’s where the Inspector finds himself...Is there a jew in the house to answer this...." (Office of the Inspector General)

This staunch Zionist and House Jew will attempt an answer. It's possible, but it's a rarity. Zionism is Jewish nationalism and like all forms of nationalism, it has many factions, ranging across the entire political, religious and philosophical spectrum. Apart from a few ultra-religious nuts in Mea Shearim and some assimilated or leftist, self-loathing and sycophantic types, the vast majority of Jews worldwide are Zionists due to clear religious principles and their pride in and love of the reborn Jewish state. Hence, those who "loathe Zionists" without distinction are, in this House Jew's book, common antisemites. A precious few critics do make distinctions, based on correct or imagined complexities; Dodo, for example, with whom I profoundly and often hotly disagree on many points regarding Israel and the state of Jewry worldwide is, nevertheless, a prime example of the rare honourable critic whom I will snarl at, but would never call an antisemite.

28 August 2011 at 16:40  
Blogger Serpents and Doves said...

Does God want us to pour over obcure Biblical texts before deciding what is right or wrong in international affairs? Are we so proud as to think we can use the Bible as soothsayers and predict His how purposes His will unfold in history?

Jesus in His manhood could have interpreted the 'historical' role of Israel from Judaic texts and under the terms of the New Covenant but chose not too. Instead when asked when He would return He said only His Father knows.

Let's put the preconceptions of Judaic Zionism and Christian Zionism aside.

28 August 2011 at 16:45  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Avi Barzel

Why thank you, Sir.

Tell me, what do you think of 'Christian Zionists' who appear to believe support for Israel now will lead ultimately to the conversation of your nation to Christianity before the return of Christ the Messiah?

28 August 2011 at 16:51  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

You're welcome, Sir. In this day and age, and given our numbers and international position, any help from any quarter helps and our gratitude obscures other considerations. I do at times worry about what may happen when the realisation that Jews are unlikely to give up being Jews finaly solidifies...Mohammed and Martin Luther's reactions to their disappointment stand as a warning...but the vast majority of pro-Israel Christians merely hope for and pray that Jews might or somehow will, on their own accord, convert. That is an honest religious position one can live with.

28 August 2011 at 17:02  
Blogger Berserker said...

Palestinian Statehood? Mr Abbas wants to leave with a ringing Resolution! But this would be a disaster for the Palestinian people.

Remember that the USa and the EU and Israel keep the Authority afloat. It has a vast and expensive Public Sector. The USA could conceivably cut off all aid.

Mr Abbas has recently complained (rightly) that the Arab States do not give enough financial help to the Palestinians. So what is he doing biting the hand that feeds him.

I am sure everyone knows that the UN never stops passing resolutions against Israel and never against the Palestinians.

28 August 2011 at 17:18  
Blogger Berserker said...

In the late 1940's,the United Nations Partition Plan was accepted by Israel but not by the Arabs.

In the cities of Haifa and Jaffa it was the Arab armies turfed the Palestinians out!

28 August 2011 at 17:34  
Blogger Oswin said...

The False Prophet, the Beast and the Dragon gather the world unto Megiddo.

The throne upon which the King will sit will be the Throne of David, and his Kingdom will be the WHOLE of Israel, both the House of Judah and the House of Israel.

It's time to choose your side.

28 August 2011 at 17:48  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Avi

An honest and sound position.

28 August 2011 at 17:57  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Carl: "The US is a sovereign nation and doesn't need any external authority to provide a 'veneer of legality' for its decisions. There is no temporal sovereign over the nations."

Well, quite.

Iraq was a sovereign nation too of course before we all piled in. It's all actually about power in the end; something some people in the UK forget when they moan about the loss of day-to-day sovereignty of the UK to the EU.

28 August 2011 at 18:12  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Oswin I am chosing my side.

I shall be making a Stand, for me, alone, and when I am gone, nobody will ever know I was here.

Thats how I wish to be remembered.

28 August 2011 at 18:24  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

DanJ0

Iraq was a sovereign nation too of course before we all piled in.

Hussein's mistake was to threaten the vital interests of the major powers. That's why he was bounced out of Kuwait. That's why he was bounced out of power. Europeans tend to gravitate towards the idea of military force as international law enforcement. Except there is no such thing as 'international law' and there is no international military to enforce it. There are only sovereign states with sovereign interests.

A nation can pretty much do what it wants if:

1) It is too powerful to confront.

2) It is so unimportant the major powers see no reason to bother with it.

Iraq under Hussein was an important nation that didn't have the power to enforce its will.

carl

28 August 2011 at 18:28  
Blogger Oswin said...

Bred in the bone: you'd best be careful where you stand then, or it might be altogether more memorable than you might wish. :o)

28 August 2011 at 18:29  
Blogger Majid Ali said...

Please help me by reading my appeal on my profile

28 August 2011 at 18:43  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Oswin

If only it were all so simple.

Are you suggesting uncritical support for Israel equates with being on the side of God? To question the legitimacy of her actions means siding with Satan?

If so, it is a somewhat naive and Biblically unsustainable position.

28 August 2011 at 18:48  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

carl

All very chauvenistic if you don't mind my saying so. 'Might is right' and all that.

I agree you're right in your analysis but you also seem to saying this is the way it should remain. America, or any other nation for that matter, can do as it chooses just so long as it has the military muscle. Or am I misunderstanding?

What's the point of the UN if not to bring some more impartial consideration to world affairs and for otherwise independent nations to take collective responsibility?

Is this all too close to a 'The New World Order' for your liking?

28 August 2011 at 18:59  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Oswin, I shall stand at the bus stop, its as good a place as any.

Nobody will notice that my real objective is to keep an eye on the phone box, across the way.

See how I drew your attention off the bus stop and convinced you the phone box was important to me.

Or was it the phone box all along!

28 August 2011 at 19:29  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo @ 18:48 :

Are you suggesting that the road to Armageddon will be divided into 'lanes' - for the likes of YOU to choose which suits you best?

You forever purport to the word of God, and of his prophets, and yet you nit-pick, like some daft wee lassie, treading amidst cowpats.

I suggest that it is your pic n' mix approach that is ''Biblically unsubstainable'' ... try reading the relavant sections, then you might at least achieve some measure of consistency.

28 August 2011 at 19:29  
Blogger Oswin said...

Bred in the bone: I do hope that it IS the 'telelephone box' - as we don't have a bus-stop in our village! Will a letter-box do instead??? At least an attempt at 'colour coordination' etc.

28 August 2011 at 19:35  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

you also seem to saying this is the way it should remain.

I am saying it cannot help but remain this way. How could it be otherwise? If you desire a United World Gov't given the diverse collection of worldviews and cultures that exist on this planet, you will only achieve that Gov't by force. The nations are not going to cede sovereignty to an abstract entity that has no tangible instantiation anywhere in the world.

America, or any other nation for that matter, can do as it chooses just so long as it has the military muscle.

After, World War II, who sat in the dock at Nuremberg? The defeated Germans. Of what crimes were they charged? They were charged with crimes against peace and crimes against humanity. Were the Soviets guilty of such crimes? Yes, the Soviets were just as guilty as the Germans. Then why weren't the Soviets charged? Because the Soviets won the war, and victory allowed them to sit in judgment instead of in the dock. That's all you need to know about "international law" and its efficacy. Who was going to fight to bring the Soviets to justice? No one. What would the UN have been able to do about this? Nothing. End of story.

What's the point of the UN ...

Good question. Employing a lot of useless bureaucrats comes to mind. And I suspect the UN is a major customer for the paper industry. Beyond that ...

...if not to bring some more impartial consideration to world affairs and for otherwise independent nations to take collective responsibility?

The UN? Impartial? Independent? Is this a bad joke? The UN is neither independent, nor impartial. Many of the countries in the UN are little more than flags on a flag pole, and I wouldn't let them near the laws of my nation. They are by and large a collection of wretched little dictatorships that shouldn't have purchase on power let alone influence. They aren't acting from impartiality or independence. They are seeking after their own best interests.

In fact, the UN possesses responsibility for nothing. It has no means to take responsibility. All it can do is pound the table with a shoe and then beg someone to send troops or money or experts or something. Now, if you accept the idea of collective responsibility, I suggest you slash your social services budget and start building a military capable of acting on that responsibility. It really doesn't mean much to talk the talk unless you can walk the walk.

carl

28 August 2011 at 19:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Avi Barzel – I feared that was the answer. Unless you fully support Zionism, you are by decree an anti-Semite; unless you can be accepted as a just critic as Dodo has managed to be.

One final question – shouldn’t a staunch zionist, as you call yourself, actually be in Israel doing his bit for their armed forces ??

28 August 2011 at 19:47  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Carl: "Europeans tend to gravitate towards the idea of military force as international law enforcement. Except there is no such thing as 'international law' and there is no international military to enforce it. There are only sovereign states with sovereign interests."

There's a large body of international law even if it exists through mutual recognition by a collection of sovereign nations. The form is in some ways similar to the EU: an inter-governmental organisation from which supranational aspects emerge.

The UN is essentially a horse-trading centre and its decisions can sometimes be ignored by nations, such as Israel, if backed by its own power or by powerful nations. But just because law is sometimes ignored does not mean it does not exist or have meaning.

28 August 2011 at 20:11  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

DanJ0

There's a large body of international law even if it exists through mutual recognition by a collection of sovereign nations.

The exists a large body of customs and conventions that states recognize because it is in their interest to do so. Diplomatic immunity comes to mind. But these customs hardly rise to the level of law. The problem is not that "international law" is sometimes ignored. The problem is that it is by its nature wholly unenforceable. There is no authority behind the law except the sovereign nations that agree to abide by it to the extent it is in their interest. Law is not law without enforcement. Law is the expression of authority, and authority must have the ability to compel the will. Where is the authority behind international law that may compel the will? It does not exist.

But just because law is sometimes ignored does not mean it does not exist or have meaning.

I agree these things exist and have meaning. They simply should not be characterized as "law" because of all the implications carried in that word. It implies a temporal sovereign law-giver over the nations and I recognize no such sovereign competent to bind the actions of the United States.

carl

28 August 2011 at 21:03  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Oswin, you keep an eye out through the letter box and keep me posted on any further developments.

It was always assumed you had no bus stop in that village, only we have been covertly ringing dial a ride from that telephone for some time.

Mums the word.

28 August 2011 at 21:28  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Carl, I wasn't sure from your comment whether you were in favour of a united world government or not. I suspect that if that day comes we will find ourselves under the rule of the anti-christ. Jesus tells us that this will be a time of such great distress that if it was not shortened no-one would survive. We already have the great apostasy prophesied by St. Paul so perhaps Armageddon is not far off.

29 August 2011 at 01:11  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Oswin

Where is it written that support for the secular state of Israel is the test of whether one is with or against God?

If you want to know what about principles Jesus taught for human and internation affairs have a read of Matthew 5:3-12 and Matthew 25:31-46.

I like to try and understand a situation before jumping in to support one side unconditionally in a dispute. I also think it unwise to prejudge on the basis of disputed Biblical texts capable of different interpretations.

29 August 2011 at 01:12  
Blogger Roger Pearse said...

Certainly political support for the modern state of Israel is not enjoined by the scriptures!

But that said ... let's bear in mind that the objective of the Palestinians is to extirpate that state, and to expel all Jews from the land. (Look at Mugabe, if you want a pattern). All this stuff about "zionism" is just words. Why on earth, after all, shouldn't the Jews want to go back to Judaea? The very idea of "Palestine" as a separate state in Arab eyes is a mockery -- the Arab world wasn't divided up like that until after WW1.

I think I'm rather in favour of this demonstration, if only to draw a line in the sand. Christians are not political. But surely the tendency of leftist churchmen to support totalitarian or murderous people like Mugabe and Arafat needs to be resisted? Surely we might reasonably suggest that the Jews have a right to live in Judaea?

29 August 2011 at 09:44  
Blogger whitespacebug said...

"support and believe in the scriptural promises for the Jewish people and Israel. "

The problems in the Middle East in a nutshell.

29 August 2011 at 10:15  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"Surely we might reasonably suggest that the Jews have a right to live in Judaea?"

On what basis?

29 August 2011 at 10:18  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I have to say I can see no 'morally' good solution to the problem. I can't even see a flawed but acceptable solution. In fact, I'd be tempted to think that the world would be better served by shipping everyone out and irradiating the place.

29 August 2011 at 10:36  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

29 August 2011 at 10:41  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

DanJ0 said...
" ... the world would be better served by shipping everyone out and irradiating the place."

I think that may be God's ultimate plan except he'll be replacing it and us with a 'New Jerusalem'.

29 August 2011 at 14:25  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Inspector General,

Your conclusions about the relationship between modern antisemtism and anti-Zionism are faulty. As is your apparent assumption about how I evaluate individuals whose opinions differ from mine. There are many books and much info on the 'net, should you care to see all sides of the issue. My own take on the matter is that until antisemitism becomes once again fashionable and acceptable in society...a bounce-back trend that's been resurging after a brief post-war hiaitus...antisemites will rely on socially acceptable masks, such as the pretense that they are principled and caring humanitarians who are deeply concerned about "Palestinians," that they are political idealists who are opposed to Zionism on the trumpted-up charge that it is part of a Western colonialist plot, or who claim to be political "realists" seemingly concerned about geopolitical realities. That's only because the Jews-as-a-filthy-race card is no longer an option, and given how religion has dropped in importance, accusing Jews of being G-d-killers, or horned and hoofed demons won't wash either. Since Europeans caught up to Jews in literacy levels and financial skills and practices, the Shylock thing is no good either. So, if you've been suppressing certain sentiments, just be patient; pretty soon you'll be able to freely speak your mind about Jews and to hold your head up without having to conjure up nonsense you don't believe in and to face the "censorship" that the costs of low social esteem currently impose on poor, suffering antisemites.

As to your last question, ideally yes. Unless one has done his bit earlier and plans to do more later. There are many good Zionists who plan to stay where they are and to be good citizens in the countries they live in. They are also many who are not Jews as well. So, you too can be a good and staunch Zionist. I'll send you pamphlets and forms, if you want.

30 August 2011 at 16:29  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJ0,

Would religious beliefs, historical connections, unbroken residency, and internationally upheld rights of independence and national sovereignity count in your book? Perhaps not, fair enough, but are you consistent in your approach?

Seeing that we are talking about a sliver of territory in a vast Arab world, what logic would you deny Jews, and Jews alone, the right of claim to a historical homeland that has been already "irradiated" through an actual policy of land and habitation destruction by the ancient Romans and which has been repeatedly ethnically cleansed of Jews in the past by a succession of ambitious, but bungling and savage occupiers, the latest being Jordan and Egypt? What are your thoughts on the masses of Jews who were recently robbed and expelled from most of the Muslim world and post-War Eastern Europe to find refuge only in their new homeland? What about the current waves of Black Ethiopian Jewish and Christian refugees rescued by Israel, or those sabra Israelis with unbroken lineage dating back centuries, if not millenia? Where would you put them in this latest "solution to the Jewish problem" and what would you tell them?

30 August 2011 at 17:08  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Inspector General,

Observe and ponder. DanJ0 has expressed views one associates with anti-Zionists/antisemites, and yet, DanJ0 is not an antisemite in my book and I count him as an online friend! Argh! How can this be? What secret criteria do I apply?

30 August 2011 at 17:14  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi, I have absolutely nothing against Jews, either collectively or individually. Antisemitism bewilders me to be honest. I just don't get it. Even allowing for the stereotypes, it doesn't make much sense to me.

Anti-Zionism? That's a different thing to antisemitism of course. I have no issue with the conceptual idea of a Jewish-oriented state at all. I can easily understand the desire given the history, both recent and many times in the past, of pogroms.

Unfortunately, it appears to be set up in a disputed territory and that presents a problem. As an outsider, I can't find a 'morally' comfortable position regarding the competing claims. I see no resolution to the problem even though I am pretty sympathetic to the Jewish cause.

The biblical basis is nothing to an atheist like me and the history of the region has a lengthy chunk of Turkish rule in it followed by a confusion over the last 100 years. But the idea of Palestine as am Arab nation is not compelling either.

The citizenry of Israel appears to be mostly a mix of Jewish and secular but the ethnicity is a very mixed bag but with a core of Jewishness in it. My single Jewish friend is European but a staunch Zionist. He denies his European nationality, preferring a Jewish identity. But he's not actually religious and Israeli culture is not his at all. It's like he's part of an Jewish Ummah.

I rarely comment on territorial Israel as the neverending issue of it depresses me but I sometimes make comparisons when I see certain arguments.

Here on this blog comments area, I see calls for deporting Muslim immigrants from the UK because they are of a different and incompatible culture. The advocates claim that the new culture has designs on our land and intend to overwhelm us eventually by numbers. They see a future of our literally fighting for survival against moves to create an Islamic state in the UK based in foreign Sharia Law.

There's something of the history and pre-history of the state of Israel in that vision, I think, only from the other side. Yet because Christianity has come from Judaism the same people are sympathetic to the 'interlopers' this time.

Israel as a state is here to stay. It has to be, I think. We're all where we are now and must go on from here. Yet I can't see a way forward that doesn't involve much injustice. However, I suppose we thought that about Northern Ireland and we (i.e. they) have moved forward there.

Dunno if all that makes sense in its necessarily broad-brush way. I was, of course, being facetious and exasperated with my comment about irradiation, rather than serious.

30 August 2011 at 21:12  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

That 'interlopers' bit is probably going to be controversial. I used to sit next to a Lebanese ex-pat Muslim Arab when I worked in High Wycombe and we talked about Israel quite often. It was his very strong view that Israel was set up by importing large numbers of people against a backdrop of mostly trusting Arabs until it was too late for them. Truth be told he scared me with his hatred of all things Israeli. He thought that Israeli children were legitimate targets for murder because of conscription i.e. that they were all proto-soldiers. :O He used to tell stories of Israeli tanks in Lebanon (presumably in Beirut 1982?) just rolling over and crushing cars with people still in them. It's not until one talks to someone like that that the hurdles to some sort of reconciliation become properly apparent, I think.

30 August 2011 at 21:32  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJ0,

I know you have nothing against Jews and you needn't explain anything on that at this point, not to me anyway. That is not my accusation, if there is one. I do get annoyed, though, when smart and reasonable people, especialy those I like, lift up their hands in despair and declare confusion and a desire for the problem to magically disappear. They unwittingly open up the gates to nastiness, as others, less kindly or smart types, quickly follow suit, but in their frustration, eventually reach for the low hanging fruit, which usually results in blaming the Jews or Israel. Hence my broadside at your comments.

I note that the issue of Jewish identity confuses you a bit. If I may assist by simplifying; look at the biblical claims upon which every notion of Jewishness ultimately rests. It's not race, bloodlines, culture, language, politics or even belief, but the idea of a nation of people bound by the Covenant, a contract with G-d and between themselves. It's not an easy relationship, to be sure, and throughout history, millions of Jews have abandoned the hefty yoke and blended in with others...but then, millions of others have joined us for all sorts of reasons, which is why probably every modern person has a Jewish ancestry...and why every Jew is ultimately related to a non-Jew. Not every Jew or non-Jew likes to think of that fact, but myopia seems to be a shared characteristic.

And thank you for your lengthy response; I enjoy reading your entries, and I suspect that I sometimes "subconsciously" provoke you just to get a good read. O, well, feel free to do the same.

On your second post, Muslim antisemitism cloaked as mere hatred for the modern Jewish state is, unfortunately common. Like modern antisemites, they couldn't care less about the "Palestinians," but need them for a cover in an age when antisemitism is stigmatised. Funnily enough, I have had the fortune to have met quite a few Muslims, mainly Kurds and Albanians, who privately declare their admiration for Jews and Israel. Odd things happen when one wears a kippa in odd places.

31 August 2011 at 00:05  
Blogger jeff said...

Isaiah 41 bring forth your Idols did they PREACH to you see they can’t speak they can’t DO ANYTHING all they do is cause confusion. Spalms 115 and Spalms 135 their Idols are FALSE they can't speak, hear, nor smell and those that make them shall become like them. Jeremiah 10 they nail their Idol down like a scarecrow it can’t move, speak they must be carried these are nothing but the WORK of CON men.
John 10 Jesus Christ says his sheep HEAR HIS VOICE and if another person TRIES TO PREACH to them they WILL FLEE from him. Jeremiah 5 the priests bear rule on their OWN AUTHORITY what will you do when your judged my word is not INSIDE them. Now here is the kicker john 5 son of man voice goes BACK in TIME.
Mathew 16 Jesus Christ claims to be the son of man. 1 cor 2 mind of CHRIST preached internally and john 14 says the spirit of truth comes in the future. Ezekiel 13 states lying prophets of ISRAEL say GOD says GOD says but my word is not inside them. They wrote hoping mankind would CONFIRM their WORDS. All of this is EASILY verifiable.
Mathew 10 says you should hear an internal voice that defends you and tells you what to say when taken to court preached to by the holy ghost. Mathew 12 Jesus states he is preaching by the holy ghost. John 14 states holy ghost comes in future and is from someone else. Now refer back to John 10 about hearing from someone else and fleeing. John 5 states son of mans voice goes back in time. Mathew 16 Jesus claims to be the son of man.
1 cor 2 holy ghost is familiar with the story about a man on cross from READING about it. Isaiah 65 written in front of me is listed here and also what is not written is hidden from my eyes therefore not familiar with it found in the same chapter. john 7 Jesus says if you knew scripture you'd know if its his word or GODS words. john 12 Jesus admits the voice heard is NOT his. John 10 people point out that Jesus tries to make himself appear to be GOD.

31 August 2011 at 06:19  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "I do get annoyed, though, when smart and reasonable people, especialy those I like, lift up their hands in despair and declare confusion and a desire for the problem to magically disappear."

It's the liberal curse, I reckon. I felt the same about Northern Ireland, always thinking "why can't they just get along with each other, surely that would be better?"

Whatever the politics, I've grown up with TV footage, from the devastation of Beirut, to the bus bombings in Israel, through the rockets, and onto the wars by Arab neighbours.

A few years ago, I forced myself to watch camcorder footage of the immediate aftermath of a bus bombing, including seeing all the body parts, to understand the terror of it (before we experienced it once here in London). I know that Israelis build reinforced rooms in their houses in some areas to protect from rocket attacks, and I know that people are always aware that they are under threat. I know what my reaction would be to rockets being fired over the English channel by the French too.

On the flip side, I know the daily difficulties faced by the Palestinians with the Wall. I was as horrified as I can be by the footage of that IDF outpost using that stone-throwing boy and his father for target practice that made the news a few years ago. We see the helicopter gunship assassinations of Hamas people in cars in the middle of crowded streets. And so on.

I see the various political factions in Israel, and the internal struggles that take place. I couldn't believe the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by an 'ultra-nationalist' at the time. Even Israel can't agree itself what the way forward is!

For sure, it would be convenient if the Palestinians would move into (say) Jordan or Lebanon where there are similar people and leave Israel to the people who want to stay there under Israeli rule. The same could be said regarding the Catholics in Northern Ireland. But I find I can't take a firm position on that. It's not my call.

31 August 2011 at 06:54  
Blogger whitespacebug said...

Anyone know what "Jeff" is on about? It might be interesting, if only I knew what it was..

31 August 2011 at 08:25  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJ0,

You've confirmed the main problem Israel has faced since the late 60s: media treatment and Israeli government ineptitude in defending its positions and actions. How the world's most disciplined and ethically responsible army, the IDF, became equated with the Wehrmacht is a story all by itself.

The examples of equivalency you provide illustrate this point. The "Wall" is a security fence which has all but stopped the deadly suicide bomb carnage. There are many similar security fences throughout the world which get no mention. The "photogenic" high concrete barriers, which are only situated only in a few locations, block sniper fire at Israeli civilians. The "target practice" incident you describe is the Mohammed Al Dura (sp?) incident at the Nezarim Junction which launched the last intifada. Various investigations have concluded that the French TV station edited and destroyed key parts of the footage and that the IDF was not situated in a position to shoot the boy. The PA snipers were, though, and given how readily Palestinian children are trained for "martyrdom" even by their mothers, the possibility that this was an organized PR stunt is fairly high.

Where are the stories about the thousands of Pals treated in Israeli hospitals and assisted by volunteers? The thousands of tons of food donated by Israel even under fire? The free electricity and water services? The hundreds of organizations assisting Arabs? The thousands of jobs for PA Arabs Israel still provides? The tens of thousands of Israeli residency applications by West Bank Arabs? The thousands of women and homosexuals hiding out in Israel, with the support of Israeli organizations? What of the daily rapes, robberies, beatings, thefts, car stonings, destructions of Israeli farm fields and routine burning of entire Israeli forests as an official "resistance" tactic? Where are the comparisons between Israeli school textbooks and those of the PA which are even funded by UNRWA? When a handful of Israeli rabbis decree that it is a sin for their congregation to sell or rent land to Arabs, it makes the news. Fair enough, but what about PA laws, backed by death sentences, against any Arab who sells property to Jews?

The bottom line for me is that you and others like you are not to blame. Yes, we have a corrupt Western media and humanitarian organizations, there is a resurgence of antisemitism among elites and academia in the West but for me the biggest blame must go to the Israeli governments which have been indifferent to PR, the Israeli leftists, its UN and EU-paid off "humanitarian" organizations and a fifth column media. Let me shamfully add myself and my comfy brethren in the diaspora, all of us who have had our heads burried in petty local concerns, silly in-fighting, conspicuous consumption and escapist, navel-gazing religiosity, while our brethren in Israel suffer. I do notice, though, that things are beginning to change, so stay tuned.

31 August 2011 at 16:06  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi, if I talk to other people from the Middle East then I get the same strength of comments, only in the opposite direction. Hang around on the Independent and you'll see the Israel vs Palestine comment wars, all with anecdotes, rebuttals, facts, history, investigations, and so on played out each time a related story pops up.

It wouldn't surprise me if some Arabs don't claim that the boy and his father were shot by Mossad, dressed as a PA member, shooting to incriminate an IDF soldier so that Israel can claim the PA are shooting their own after an investigation has happened.

It's almost impossible to know. What I do know is that when I talk to Zionists (in the non-derogatory sense of the word) and Arabs such as my Lebanese colleague, everyone is passionate and everyone believes absolutely that the other side is evil. I simply don't know what the truth is. I just want the violence and its ripples to stop.

31 August 2011 at 21:10  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

O, go on on now, DanJ0, you don't really believe what you're saying, do you? I mean, not about stuff you'd care about personally.

You're saying it's all a Gordian knot, the situation is unknowable, the truth unattainable, the facts unreachable because....because everyone has their story and, get this, people feel equally passionate about their side? Wow. And maybe, if you refuse to make a judgement, to sift fact from fiction and to choose sides, they'll all stop doing what they're doing and you can be left alone? Goodness.

You do know how to asses information, how to evaluate credibility of sources, how to make decisions, how to judge with a sense of...well, justice? No? So when in doubt, give in to obscurantism, moral equivalence, evidentiary agnosticism and a migraine? Mommy, I want all these bad people to stop?

Maybe the Mossad even runs everything in the world? Why not? Many say that. Maybe witches do fly and cause crop failures and impotence? Could be; the best minds of Europe in the top universities and seminaries once believed that. So, then, it was a blessing to hunt almost a million women down, torture confessions out of them and burn them, right? Maybe Jews really are demonic parasites and destroyers of pure and good races and we need to build factories to kill them? Top scientists and a whole nation believed that and by Jove, they engaged continental rail systems, fired up IBM computers, and build modern killing factories to do someting about it. And perhaps, as many passionately claim, Gays are evil mutants out to seduce our children and we need to throw them in the ovens with the Jews as well? O, wait, that was done too. So then, where does this agnostic "fairness" stop and what next will it lead to?

1 September 2011 at 13:52  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

No. If I were to go and live in Gaza and parts of Israel then I'd get a much better feel for it. It was the same in Northern Ireland. We never really got the sense of it over here on the mainland even though we suffered the bombs at times. I understand the former civil war in Nepal much better for having lived out there and not relying on the media portrayal.

It's your war if you choose to identify with Israel from the cosyness of Canada. We all just have to suffer the consequences. No doubt if it were actually my decision, or within my sphere of influence, then I'd be involved in the day to day of it in the field and more intuitively know the likely form of events and actions and motivations.

But way to go with this line of unnecessary outrage, you're certainly helping to turn me into someone who was on the fence to someone who thinks strident Zionists are as unreasonable and over the top as my Lebanese colleague. He shoots! He scores! He's put it in the back of his own net! Hurrah.

1 September 2011 at 19:28  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Well, DanJ0, since you've angrily disqualified me from commenting on Israel, on the grounds of residing in the cosiness of Canada among other things, may I meekly point out that the principles still apply?

I mean, it's not rocket science anymore to determine who is likely to provide believable information and who lies like a rug. The distinctions nowadays aren't usually subtle; democracies with a free press cannot easily get away with outright lies, whereas tyrannies depend on them for their very lives. There, try that one out.

Just to be clear on this, are you saying that your entire epistomological methodology is based on "getting a feel for it"? I'm curious as to whether you apply this to everything. Gallivanting all over the globe to "intuitively know the likely form of events and actions and motivations" before making a judgment is quite a commitment. Can you work that in with your vacations? May I constructively suggest that without time travel, another inherent limitation of your otherwise excellent research strategy is that it bars you from commenting on history? Oops.

Of course, I'm sorry to have upset you and pushed you off the fence. On the other hand, you gotta admit that after a while, sitting on a rickety and narrow plank gets to be hard on the butt.

1 September 2011 at 21:19  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"Of course, I'm sorry to have upset you and pushed you off the fence. On the other hand, you gotta admit that after a while, sitting on a rickety and narrow plank gets to be hard on the butt."

I sat on it for a long while over Northern Ireland despite periodically listening to Dr Ian Paisley who took the same approach as you seem to prefer: loud, almost spittle-flecked outrage at everyone including those fairly sympathetic to the ideas.

Catholics are still living in Northern Ireland. There is still some tension. But stepping aside from the Ian Paisley's shouting at people and ratching up the rhetoric so that positions are deeply entrenched and hatred abounds worked in Northern Ireland's case.

The result when the flag wavers and ideologues and vengence demanders were convinced to shut up for a bit was not a win-lose for one side or the other, or even an unsatisfactory compromise for everyone, but a relatively peaceful coexistence which may look quite a lot like a win-win in a generation or two.

2 September 2011 at 07:24  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Right, DanJ0, in addition to my other character faults, I'm also a self-sabotaging spittle-spewing, flag-waving, Paisleyesque ideologue, and according to you, the panacea balm of compromise has appeared to calm, at least in one case and for the time being, one world conflict.

That's all probably very therapeutic for you...glad I could somehow help... and I'm cheering for the Irish (not being flippant; I have extended family in Belfast), but you're still evading the principle we were spatting about. Perhaps another time, over a different topic, one that's closer to your heart or worthy of your energy. In any case, should it matter to you, you're still a decent chap in my book, although a somewhat confused one.

2 September 2011 at 13:59  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I'm just not keen on being unnecessarily brow-beaten for not taking one side over the other. It could be worse, I could be backing the wrong side (whichever that is) and agitating instead. In the words of Mark Twain: "I was pleased to be able to answer promptly, and I did. I said I didn't know." I find that quite a principled position in this respect.

2 September 2011 at 17:25  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJ0, I didn't brow-beat you for not taking a side, that's a legitimate position, if arrived at honestly, such as not knowing enough about an issue. I objected to your position which assumed equivalency between the sides in terms of legitimacy of claims, conduct in war and peace, credibility of media and institutions, as well as your suggestion that the truth is unattainable because both sides can be equally passionate and strident. Philosophically and epistemologically, that is the fallacy of obscurantism, the ant-scientific notion that truth is unknowable. In the examples I provided, which for some reason upset you, the one with the" witches," Jews and Gays, I merely tried to point out that regardless of how popular or expert-based an opinion may be, it doesn't necessarily lead to the truth, something I know you would agree with if you considered issues you care about personally.

Political compromise and mediation, which you brought up for some reason, is another matter entirely. Yes, it pays sometimes to compromise, but not always, not on all issues and not between all parties; compromising with regimes which are illegitimate, demented, autocratic, unyielding and out to wreak destruction is inadvisable for any goverment in the world. In the case of Israel, all concessions and compromises...the Sinai, not expelling the Arabs from Judea and Samaria in '67 as they expelled all Jews in '48, allowing a terror organization to form a "government," leaving Lebanon without destroying Hizbulah and assisting the Christian sector, giving away Gaza, ignoring or responding meekly to actions other governments would wage war over...neither of these brought a smidgen of good-will. Instead, they weakened Israel's strategic and international position and brought in more violence against its citizens. Israeli victories, on the other hand, have always brought peace and improvement of Jewish and yes, even Arab lives. These are objectively measurable and clearly evident realities.

So, if prefering policies which will ensure Israel's survival, security and well-being is zealotry, then I'm a zealot, I guess. But I'm at least a consistent zealot, for I'm always on the side of liberal democracies holding their ground against tyrannies, because I know that this trend is by no means unique to Israel. Be it the Allies angainst the Axis, NATO against the Warsaw Pact, Britain vs Argentina, India against Pakistan, Colombia vs Venezuela, South Korea against the North, Poland vs Russia, the Thai and Philipine governments against Islamist insurgents, etc., I will always be on the side of the more decent, even if imperfect, parties. Am I wrong here and if so, how?

2 September 2011 at 19:54  
Blogger len said...

Anti- Semitism is rife not only in this country(UK) but is a growing force Worldwide.
I am amazed by the hatred which is generated towards Israel and the the Jews ,this is not a physical or even an emotion thing but quite definately a spiritual thing.A lot of reporting in the Media is anti Israel pro Arab.Could Oil be a factor here? Most anti semites are not even aware of the root causes.It(anti semiticism is even in the Church in the form of replacement theology).

It is time for all those of genuine Christian faith to make a stand with the Jews ,with Israel ,and with Gods purposes in these last days.

4 September 2011 at 09:12  

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