Tuesday, August 16, 2011

Van Rompuy to head up new EU Government

It's official: eurogeddon is leading inexorably to a single government, and our chiefest civil servant is to become the head of that government. We won't get to vote, of course: it's all being neatly tied up as we sleepwalk to our pre-ordained EUtopia in fulfilment of our teleological destiny.


Blogger Ben_Archibald said...

It's becoming clearer that EU membership is not compatible with UK interests, unless a strict recognition of a two tier Europe is to be made. Either we will have to leave the EU, or the EU will have to leave us.

16 August 2011 at 19:42  
Blogger Bred in the bone said...

Political Elites and the people are on the march in opposite directions everywhere.

I feel a nasty clash coming.

16 August 2011 at 19:49  
Blogger Sam Vega said...

The Eurozone will experience more centralised direction. But how will this affect us in the UK?

16 August 2011 at 19:55  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

‘The fusion of economic functions would compel nations to fuse their sovereignty into that of a single European State.’—Jean Monnet, 3rd April, 1952

‘We must now face the difficult task of moving forward towards a single economy, a single political entity. For the first time since the fall of the Roman Empire we have the opportunity to unite Europe.’—Romano Prodi, EU Commission President, 13th October 1999

16 August 2011 at 20:23  
Blogger Dodo said...

Bit too early to comment as the detail isn't available yet.

As I understand it, this 'government is to consist of a bi-annual meeting of those 17 states in the Eurozone to coordinate economic policies.

No need to panic just yet.

16 August 2011 at 20:42  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Your Grace,

This has been on the cards for some time- a fully fledged Eurogov with full tax raising powers. It is the logical consequence of Eurogeddon and the EU juggernaut.

I suspect that this shall be used as a model to change the sovereign state into provinces, the end of the UN and to have a unified world government-let's call it the Earth Union (or EU for short).

16 August 2011 at 21:41  
Blogger The Minister for Public Enlightenment said...

Merkel and Sarkosy are going to need more than twice yearly meetings to restore confidence in the Euro-zone. They have fixed nothing. This announcement is a ploy to buy time. With the rejection of Euro Bonds and dire economic growth in France as well as Germany it may be time they do not have.

16 August 2011 at 21:57  
Blogger Owl said...

a "bi-annual" meeting of the EU "whatever you would like to call it", is just the thin end of the wedge.

This is how Fabian gradualism works.

I would say that the clock is standing at 3 minutes to 12 as far as our national freedom is concerned.

When will the UK wake up.

16 August 2011 at 22:14  
Blogger Peter Melia said...

I guess you've seen this,
you sturdy European burghers
I guess you must be comforted to learn that 
at last, 
all is well.

All of those horrible kings and bishops, 
that horrid revolution,
all of those horrid emperors,
all of those horrid republics,
all of that evil, 
evil, I say, 

Now it's all settled.
The people of La Belle France
and Europe can rest.
happy (by decree),

And not even bothered by the need to vote on anything,
secure in the knowledge that
your betters are there to look after you.

Who cares about those pesky 
left out,
in the cold,
silly, happy (sometimes), sloppy, untidy, 

16 August 2011 at 22:16  
Blogger len said...

Van Rompuy ( a devout Roman Catholic )wishes to 'head up' the European Union.
Many of the founders of the European Union were inspired by Catholic ideals, notably Robert Schuman, Alcide de Gasperi, Konrad Adenauer, and Jean Monnet.
Pope John XXIII urged Roman Catholics to be "in the front ranks" of the effort to unify Europe. Many of the "founding fathers" of the new Europe were devout Catholics, as are many of its leading proponents today. Even the press has described the idea of a united Europe as essentially a Catholic concept (The Financial Times, May 22, 1995). However, it was Pope John Paul II who promoted this key Vatican agenda for a quarter of a century. He gave nearly 700 speeches concerning Europe, and repeatedly urged Europeans to "discover their roots" as they build their "common European house." Those roots go back to the alliance between the Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Empire that ruled Europe for more than a thousand years.

These attempts to revive the Roman Empire have been going on for some time and it looks like this will be it?

What started as 'the common market'is emerging as a Political/religious vehicle.

16 August 2011 at 23:11  
Blogger Arden Forester said...

Time for Nigel Farage to give him another verbal bashing. Maybe Belgium can split in two and give Rompuy Pompuy a diversion to worry about.

16 August 2011 at 23:16  
Blogger bluedog said...

Well said, len. And read the interview with George Soros published in Der Spiegel. According to a cogent analysis by GS, there is no alternative to a fiscal union within the EU in order to fend off a total collapse of the global banking system.

16 August 2011 at 23:30  
Blogger Dodo said...


The idea of a Europe united around the Christian faith and living in peaceful cooperation, is surely something we would all welcome.

I stand to be corrected by the evidence, but I don't think any Pope has actully called for or ever promoted the idea a single United States of Europe.

Maybe many of the architechs of the EU have been Catholics. Many have been non-Catholics too. There is no attempt to recreate a Holy Roman Empire ruled by the Pontiff.

There is no secret 'Roman Catholic Party' with an agenda coming from and steered by Rome.

16 August 2011 at 23:39  
Blogger Dodo said...


I happen not to agree in the idea of a monolithic United States of Europe. The notion of a 'Christian Commonwealth' of independent nations is more appealing.

One last thought.

Doesn't the international money market and global banking and capital, render the idea of national sovereignty over economic affairs a redundant reality?

16 August 2011 at 23:46  
Blogger The Worker said...

"O happy fault,
O necessary sin of Adam,
which gained for us so great a Redeemer!"

Through the Redeemer we may become brothers of Christ and one with God.

The "teleological destiny" of mankind is a final contest between good and evil. The prince of this world and his principalities and powers, will prevent Utopia ('No Place') coming into being until his defeat.

Until the appointed time, when victory is assurred, God's Church will be a pilgrim Church.

17 August 2011 at 00:44  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

My sympathies to you all. The reborn Roman Empire to be headed now not by ceasars or a Charlemagne, but by a little grey cipher and his industrious bureaucrats who'll hen-peck you all into sustainability and burry everything under a mountain of environmentally friendly regulatory forms.

17 August 2011 at 01:15  
Blogger J.A.Evans said...

Please will you write a prayer Your Grace for those of us who want to escape European Union persecution and become this century's Pilgrim People ( pc!). Anyone know how old the oldest Pilgrim father was. Is there any hope for an OAP. Good Lord deliver us.

17 August 2011 at 07:41  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

I hate to agree, but this is scary stuff.

Of course, apart from Britain not wanting to do with this, there is one other fly in their ointment.
What will they do if (WHEN?) the Euro collapses?
Because the Germans will walk, rather than see their Wirtschaftwunder completly destroyed - and it's getting close.

17 August 2011 at 08:12  
Blogger graham wood said...

Yes, well said Len.
"A single government"? Aha! I feel a treaty change coming on.
In which case Little Boy Cameron and his EU friends in the once "Conservative Party" will be facing the music again in the form of a UK referendum demand on a treaty change. Not exactly a minor change either, that is, if the Euro has not been flushed down the pan by then.

17 August 2011 at 08:50  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Your Grace

A fiscal union.

Then the European Union breaking into the northern and southern countries.

2 Daniel said: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea.

3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.

4 “The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it.

5 “And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’

6 “After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.

7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

17 August 2011 at 09:03  
Blogger Gnostic said...

There is a bipartite solution to this problem.

1) Lamp post

2) Piano wire

A shortfall in item 1 can be overcome by utilising telephone poles and microwave receiver masts.

Contingencies should be made to ensure suitable proxies for item 2 will be available should demand outstrip supply (anticipated).

17 August 2011 at 09:19  
Blogger Berserker said...

Bluedog posts:

'George Soros calls for a fiscal union within the EU'.

As I see it, Fiscal Union is for central government to decide on tax and health policies to name but two. But how will they enforce errant nations (like Greece) to collect all their taxes.

The Stability and Growth Pact was an utter failure because there was no will to enforce it and France and Germany did what they liked.

The Franco-German proposed Euro-Pus Pact sorry Plus (Freud slips again!) is a commitment to reforming the fiscal viability and competitiveness of the Eurozone. But will France ever do something about its bloated public sector?

The Euro-Plus Pact has as one of its aims (as no doubt fiscal union will have) the sustainability of pensions, which means in reality the government contributing less and curbing early retirement.

If the EU commits member states into a fiscal rules union and this into national legislation, how will they enforce it?

The soviet dissident Mr Bukovsky warned years ago that the Eu would become a totalitarian state like Russia. He saw secret Russian documents warning of a conspiracy in the EU to make it a socialist state.If the Russians were so worried about the EU becoming a Lefty paradise...

17 August 2011 at 10:25  
Blogger Little Black Sambo said...

"...van Rompuy ... will be asked to head this new government."
Who exactly is going to ask him?

17 August 2011 at 11:06  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

LBS - The same crew who appoint the unelected Commission - the Council of Ministers who argue that we elected them and that gives them the power to appoint ...

I think the "Christian" and "Catholic" links to the EU are becoming ever more tenuous. The "Christian" label is quite probably no longer true of many of these countries and if one counts heads in churches they tally up, at best, to about 15% of any given population. With Islam coming in as well, you have between 3% (The UK) and 60% (Turkey, Albania and Kosovo) with another 6% of all other "faiths." It doesn't make a case for a "religious" element to the drive to union which is primarily political.

It is interesting that the "government" you are discussing is not what Mrs Merkel is saying at home, nor is it what is being reported across Europe, though I expect it could be interpreted that way. The object of the exercise is to prevent the Greeks et al from carrying on with runaway spending at everyone else's expense and impose some fiscal discipline in much the same way that the US Treasury regulates the budgets of the individual States within that Union. It will be a major plus for everyone if this new unit can actually get the Greeks to pay tax like the rest of us!

17 August 2011 at 11:17  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

@Len, have you read "The Principality and Power of Europe: Britain and the emerging Holy Roman Empire" by Adrian Hilton?

17 August 2011 at 12:28  
Blogger len said...

Paul Twigg, Not yet , but I intend to

17 August 2011 at 13:14  
Blogger Jon said...

Isn't some kind of single government mentioned in Revelations or one of the other fruitier books in the Bible? Surely Christians everywhere should rejoice at the fulfilment of Biblical prophecy on the shoulders of the mighty Van Rompuy?!

Perhaps this could be another instance where your communicants' conservative instincts for UK isolation clash with their Christian desire to see Christ return?

17 August 2011 at 13:15  
Blogger Man with No Name said...

Paul Twigg

Do you support Adrian Hilton's thesis that the Vatican is
attempting to build a confederation of states established around a religious centre i.e. Rome?

17 August 2011 at 13:31  
Blogger Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

17 August 2011 at 14:56  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

@Man with no name, I would suggest that Hilton does raise some difficult questions and issues in his books, but unfortunately he got bashed for being 'anti-catholic', which to my mind is a sad way to respond to an argument a particular person may disagree with.

My own personal view is to acknowledge that the Vatican is a political actor on the european/world stage, with its own agenda, be that good or ill, but it only a part of the tapestry of Euro-Federalism.

17 August 2011 at 15:14  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Berserker, Are you sure Russia is worried about the EU bcoming a socialist state? Hasn't that been the plan all along?

17 August 2011 at 17:04  
Blogger Dodo said...

Paul Twigg

Hilton is certainly ‘anti-Catholicism’ in that he is opposed to the social teachings of the Catholic Church, as he understands them, and he misrepresents the degree to which practicing Catholics are duty bound to follow the Pope in matters temporal.

He is ‘anti-Catholic’ too in the sense of following a theology of salvation that differs to that of Roman Catholicism and which sees ‘God’ and His attributes differently.

All that’s fine by me and there is no obvious evidence of bigotry in this particular book and he is entitled to publish his views. However, he is no academic heavy weight when it comes to either theology or history. I would suggest there is an undercurrent of fear of Catholicism fuelled by his belief there is a political conspiracy is afoot orchestrated by the Vatican.

He argues that England is a Protestant country and should stay out of the EU because it is essentially a Catholic entity. He bases much of this on Blessed John Paul’s support of the EU and his call that God be introduced into the wording of the Constitution. He sees Rome as attempting to userp temporal power through the UN and the EU.

He believes the EU will impose Roman Catholic social doctrine on Britain. This he says is a corporatist, statist, bureaucratic continental system opposed to the Anglo-Saxon 'Protestant Ethic' of free markets, liberty, and tolerance. For him Catholicism and Corporatism go together and threaten the British way of life.

He overstates the Catholic view on the role of the State in mitigating and managing unfettered capitalism and providing services to promote social justice. He also misrepresents as Catholics having a fealty to the Pope in such matters. Catholics are not duty bound to accept the teachings of the Church in matters other than doctrine and authoritative teaching.

17 August 2011 at 17:53  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Well we've had Dodo's view. But to get a balance I'd like to see what Adrian Hilton would reply back. I know Adrian Hilton's got a blog on the Iain Dale Mega blogging site. I wonder if he could pop over to his Grace's blog & respond. It only seems fair to hear his side.

17 August 2011 at 18:41  
Blogger len said...

The revived Roman Empire in Bible Prophesy is emerging and exactly what form will this take?.
Well, it seem that when the Old Roman Empire began to crumble and fragment the crown of the Caesar`s passed to the Popes. Imperial Rome became Papal Rome on October 28, 312 A.D., when Constantine exchanged the eagle for the cross:

'And not only so, but he (Constantine) also caused the sign of the salutary trophy to be impressed on the very shields of his soldiers; and commanded that his embattled forces should be preceded in their march, not by golden eagles, as heretofore, but only by the standard of the cross. (Eusebius, Life of Constantine, p. 545).
The highest office in the pagan pantheon was that of Pontifex Maximus or Supreme Pontiff....This was held by the Roman Caesars. The last Caesar to hold that title was Emperor Gratian who conferred it upon Pope Damascus.

17 August 2011 at 20:27  
Blogger Dodo said...

Paul Twigg

What about your views? I thought you'd read it as you recommended it to len.

Of course there are bigots. Hilton doesn't appear to be one but, as I said, there is an undercurrent of fear about Rome's intentions. He's not alone and there's a flood of pseudohistorical works that hold Catholicism is a continuation of a Babylonian mystery religion. Others claim the Vatican has engineered wars for world domination. According to some the Vatican supports both Communism and Islam - anything, it seems, to get power.

The more extreme view is that the Catholic Church is the "Whore of Babylon" referred to in the Book of Revelation, and will bring about a Satanic New World Order before it is destroyed by Jesus Christ.

Welcome to the world of the Religio-Fiction writers. A genre worth billions.

17 August 2011 at 22:18  
Blogger len said...

I think we should look to the Word of God to find the truth about the revived Roman Empire ,all else is mere supposition.

In Revelation 17.9 we read of the seven mountains. There are seven hills in Rome which is significant but not actually vital to the interpretation as there are other cities with seven hills. The seven heads are described as the ‘seven mountains on which the woman sits.’ The woman is ‘Mystery Babylon the Great, mother of harlots and abominations on the earth.’ In other words it is the spiritual power which originated in ancient Babylon at the time of the tower of Babel through Nimrod (Genesis 10-11) and which has infected the empires that followed it which have oppressed God’s people .
All the evidence points towards the Roman Empire as the likely seat of power of the coming antichrist. Historically although Rome fell in the fifth century it has continued in some form through the papacy which brought power in Europe back to Rome during the period up to the Reformation with the pope exercising political power over kings and princes of Europe, raising taxes and taking one of the titles of the Roman Caesar, Pontifex Maximus.
There have been numerous attempts to revive the Roman Empire in a unified Europe under Charlemagne, the Hapsburgs, Napoleon and Mussolini / Hitler.

I think we should take the Word of God very seriously and we should look at Catholicism to see if it has any links with the 'religion' founded by Nimrod.If we disregard the Word of God it will be to our own detriment.In all matters the Word that matters should be(and is) the Word of God.

18 August 2011 at 08:04  
Blogger Preacher said...

Well let's be honest, we could see it coming for years.
The main question is what can we do to avoid the approaching crash? How do we force a reluctant, spineless coalition to hold a fair democratic referendum?.
Perhaps the social unrest we have witnessed are the beginning of the birth pangs. A reason for new laws to be formed that will deal harshly with any opponents of the political Status Quo maybe?.

18 August 2011 at 10:55  
Blogger Man with No Name said...

There are 8 hills in Rome - the Vatican sits on 1 and there are 7 others.

Back to the drawing board!

Nimrod? Now you are going back into pre-history!

18 August 2011 at 11:42  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


No historical foundation and into the shadowy specualtive realm of fantasy religo-fiction.

Catholicism has a distinct social doctrine placing a moral duty on the civil authorities to build social justice. Why not discuss this and the 'protestant ethic', the differences in theology than underpin them and there implications for policies?

18 August 2011 at 11:57  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...


touché Sir,yes I have read Hilton's work. I gave my own view at 15.14, above.

BTW -I'm guessing that by your definition on your post @17.53, specifically your second paragraph, I too am 'anti-catholic', although I would not consider myself to be so. Nor do I consider myself to be a bigot.

I guess I could write as thus (LOL):

"Dodo is ‘anti-Anglican’ in the sense of following a theology of salvation that differs to that of Anglicanism and which sees ‘God’ and His attributes differently. All that’s fine by me and there is no obvious evidence of bigotry in this particular post and he is entitled to publish his views."

18 August 2011 at 17:56  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

'fantasy religo-fiction', ah, my find feathered friend, that could have been the answer to the 'riot' thread. What the police needed were phasers- 'on stun Mr Riker' as the Frenchman Captain Jean Luc Picard said in his clipped English accent. Te he.

18 August 2011 at 18:00  
Blogger len said...

Well the Word of God and Bible Prophesy may be' fantasy' to some but I take it seriously.

Seven Hills of Rome. Well there are seven famous hills. Capitoline Hill, Palatine Hill, Aventine Hill, Caelian Hill, Esquiline Hill, Viminal Hill, and Quirinal Hill. Each of these played a very import role in the creation of the Roman Empire.

Vatican Hill
The hill on which the Vatican lies was where the emperor Nero had his public gardens and circus.Many Christians were tortured and martyred there.The very ground on which the Vatican stands is soaked with the blood of the Saints.
Strange place for a Christian religious site?

I consider myself to be Anti- Catholic- the Catholic system not the Catholic people, because I (and many others)consider it to be an oppressive heretical system which is incapable of re forming itself and the Catholic Religious Hierarchical System stands against the teachings of Jesus Christ and Holy Scripture.

18 August 2011 at 18:30  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

So there are eight hills.

The fantasy comes from imposing your interpretations on prophesy and making history fit this.

Why is it strange to worship on ground where so many early Christians gave their life? A suitable site for a Church I would have thought. Is it wrong for pilgrims to visit Golgotha too?

Have you never thought about the significance of the number seven in the Bible? It represents completeness and is not to be taken literally in Revelation.

You know too little about Roman Catholicism to judge it. Yes, I know you've read lots about it, but you see it through prejudicial eyes and with a selective understanding of history.

I'm not one for idle speculation about the 'end times' or for trying to comprehend Revelation, but have you ever considered the 'anti-Christ' might actually be a system based on selfish individualism manifested in an unrestrained consumer driven capitalism, supported by a protestant ethic?

Just a thought.

18 August 2011 at 19:13  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

I hope Len and Dodo are watching 'the borgias', the tv series, with Jeremy Ions and Pope Alexander VI. Quite a good drama & shows the political intrigues of the Papacy...

18 August 2011 at 22:00  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Opps, that was supposed to read Jeremy Ion as Pope Alexander VI. Plus Derek Jacobi plays a Cardinal... (much better as Cadfel if you ask me!).

18 August 2011 at 22:01  
Blogger Man with No Name said...

Trying to inflame passions, eh? A troll in you wanting to break out?

18 August 2011 at 22:41  
Blogger Lord Lavendon said...

Just decided to come out of my blogging retirement for one last pot shot and posting from Scotland -busy shooting the old grouse you see- still havn't seen Nessie yet, but pondering all of this over a double brandy.

Is the Catholic Church the whore of Bablyon mentioned in Revelation? Could Len tell me more? If this is the start of end times, one must be prepared!

Re: Adrian Hilton's a bally hero as far as I'm concerned. Dam fine fellow if I do say so myself; always intelligent and erudite and a good teacher (from what I've been told)!

In any case the average Englishman does not want to be run by the dogma of Popes or of socialist Europe! England should be ruled by her own Parliament.

Simple as that.

In fact I'd give the old boy Hilton a fine cigar and a bottle, sorry, case of Château Lafite, 1961vintage, if I ever met the old buffer.

PS- Is Dodo the official spokesman of the Catholic Church on this blog? He seems to know a lot about the Church. I wonder if he is a Cardinal?

18 August 2011 at 22:43  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Man with no name , the answer is no. You wouldn't be some-one else would you?

18 August 2011 at 22:45  
Blogger Anna Anglican said...

Is Mr Man with no name Dodo? Similar way of writing.

18 August 2011 at 22:51  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Lord Lavendon
I am no Cardinal and my knowledge of Roman Catholicism is scant indeed.
Strange as it may seem, I agree Britain should retain its sovereignty from the European Union. It should be free to live according to the expressed will of its own people.
Remaining in the EU means a trade-off between costs and benefits. It is not about whether it is a Catholic entity dragging us into another Holy Roman Empire.

Paul Twigg
You gave no real answer to your views on Hilton, now did you?

Do you believe the Vatican is conspiring to regain temporal power through the EU? Is the EU a Catholic entity and a part of its strategy to achieve world domination?

On reflection, I think Hilton's concerns about Catholicism, based on a 500 year old fear of Rome, is potential bigotry. Catholics have been persecuted in this country because of this Romophobia. His views border on bigotry and when their linked with notions of the 'Whore of Babylon' it is downright bigotry.

Just think of a future scenario. Armed with this literature, militant, christian fundamentalists embark on a crusade against the 'anti-Christ'. In the name of God, they use terrorist tactics to bomb holy sites, churches, cathedrals and the Vatican. Clergy and senior Catholic officials become legitimate targets.

Fantasy? Yes, of course, but are times when I wonder when I read some of the posts on here.

I feel a religiofantasy coming on!

18 August 2011 at 23:17  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Dodo said

"You gave no real answer to your views on Hilton, now did you? "

Understanding is a three edged sword.

18 August 2011 at 23:44  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Paul Twigg
" ... the Vatican is a political actor on the european/world stage, with its own agenda, be that good or ill, but it only a part of the tapestry of Euro-Federalism."

Middle of the road, equivocal and non-committed then? How very Anglican.

19 August 2011 at 00:23  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

I'd have agreed with you apart from the caveat "be that good or ill".

Go on, stick your neck out, is Roman Catholicism a system intent on world domination or is it a faith seeking to spread God's message and promote social justice ?

19 August 2011 at 00:30  
Blogger len said...

I think you only have to dig into the history of Catholicism (past and present)to see the layers of corruption that exist.

Looks good on the outside(all the robes ,the gold, and the finery) but lift the lid and what is inside don`t look good at all.

Now where have I heard that expression ?

19 August 2011 at 08:09  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

"Middle of the road, equivocal and non-committed then? How very Anglican."

Why Dodo, that's very kind of you to say so-good old C of E.

19 August 2011 at 08:20  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Paul Twigg

Still no answer on whether Rome in the 21st century is an evil institution intent on world domination and all good and true Christians should oppose its machinations.

Guess the 'via media' is a broad way and allows you to remain 'open minded' even in the face of the bigotry espoused by our friend 'len'.

19 August 2011 at 10:28  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

My dear Dodo,

You and Len are grown up and are quite capable of arguing about these matters with each other without any intervention from me; why you are addressing Len via myself, rather than addressing Len himself, is a mystery to me.

I am getting quite tired of I what see as your sniping and desire to goad me into this particular debate, persumably because you want to use this opportunity to call me a 'bigot', even though I have laid out my position time and time again on this blog.

I do feel that you are spoiling for a fight, even though I have no desire to do so, it looks like your going out of your way to detect and pounce upon anything that smacks of what you call 'bigotry'/Anti-Catholic/Anti-Catholicism, simply because some communicants are not Roman Catholic.

Furthermore, do I detect a growing hint of anti-anglicanism in your posts ? I hope not as I wouldn't want to have to revert to name calling such as using the word bigot at every point when I came across some-one with a different world view to mine, now would I?

If you had read my posts on this blog you would note and understand my view on matters pertaining to Revelation and the Roman Catholic Church & 'the two Bablyons' etc, in fact as I recall I quoted from Ralph Woodrow, a Protestant/Evangelical, who dismisses much of Alexander Hislop's work (whose book 'the two babylons' is often sited as the basis to attack the Roman Church).

19 August 2011 at 11:21  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Paul Twigg

It was you who raised the subject of this book, remember? Out of nowhere I suspect with the naughty intention of drawing comments from myself and len. We duly obliged.

For the record, I do not regard you as a bigot. One can hold a different theology, follow a different faith and have a different political outlook without this being bigotry. Irrational fear and suspicion, supported by unfounded historical claims and a partial reading of prophecy, all reinforce themselves and lead to bigotry.

Neither am I anti-Anglican, although I confess at times it is difficult to know what the particular beliefs of individual Anglicans are. Adopting the 'via media' means you are a broad and tolerant church.

As for len, well sadly, it seems the Holy Spirit has told him not to engage in discusssion with me.

19 August 2011 at 13:19  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Ellen G. White: Seven Day Adventists

"This compromise between paganism and Christianity resulted in the development of "the man of sin" foretold in prophecy as opposing and exalting himself above God. That gigantic system of false religion is a masterpiece of Satan's power--a monument of his efforts to seat himself upon the throne to rule the earth according to his will.

Thomas Cranmer (Anglican)

"Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Taken from Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.

Roger Williams (First Baptist Pastor in America)

He spoke of the Pope as "the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2)." Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.

1689 London Baptist Confession

Chapter 26: Of the Church. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. ( Colossians 1:18; Matthew 28:18-20; Ephesians 4:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:2-9 )

John Knox (Scotch Presbyterian)

Knox wrote to abolish "that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church" and that the pope should be recognized as "the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks." Taken from The Zurich Letters, pg. 199 by John Knox.

John Calvin (Presbyterian)

"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt... I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." Taken from Institutes by John Calvin.

19 August 2011 at 14:07  
Blogger D. Singh said...

Arnulf Bishop of Orleans (Roman Catholic)

"deplored the roman popes as "monsters of guilt" and declared in a council called by the King of France in 991ad that the pontiff, clad in purple and gold, was, "Antichrist, sitting in the temple of God, and showing himself as God" -Phillip Schaff, History of the Christian church, 8 vols., reprint of the 3d (1910)ed. (Grand Rapids Mich.: Wm. B Eerdmans Publishing Co., n.d.)

Eberhard II, archbishop of Salzburg (Roman Catholic)

"stated at a synod of bishops held at Regensburg in 1240 (some scholars say 1241) that the people of his day were "accustomed" to calling the pope antichrist." -LeRoy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of our Fathers, 4 vols. (Wash DC: Review and Herald publishing assc, 1950-1954)

John Wycliffe

"When the western church was divided for about 40 years between two rival popes, one in Rome and the other in Avigon, France, each pope called the other pope antichrist - and John Wycliffe is reputed to have regarded them as both being right: "two halves of Antichrist, making up the perfect Man of Sin between them." -Ibid

Martin Luther (Lutheran)

"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 2., pg. 121 by Froom. (In response to a papal bull [official decree]): "I despise and attack it, as impious, false... It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein... I rejoice in having to bear such ills for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself." --D'Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9.

Cotton Mather (Congregational Theologian)

"The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them." Taken from The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom's book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113.

John Wesley (Methodist)

Speaking of the Papacy he said, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone." Taken from Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms by John Wesley, pg. 110.

19 August 2011 at 14:07  
Blogger Man with No Name said...

Homer Simpson

"I'm normally not a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me Superman."

"Son, if you really want something in this life, you have to work for it. Now quiet! They're about to announce the lottery."

19 August 2011 at 19:03  
Blogger Man with No Name said...

More from Homer Simpson
"If the Bible has taught us nothing else, and it hasn't, it's that girls should stick to girls sports, such as hot oil wrestling and foxy boxing and such and such."

"I'm not a bad guy! I work hard, and I love my kids. So why should I spend half my Sunday hearing about how I'm going to Hell?"

"Getting out of jury duty is easy. The trick is to say you're prejudiced against all races."

19 August 2011 at 19:07  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...


Thank you very much for the clarification.

I would add one of my own; it was not my intention to 'stir' matters between yourself and Len, merely trying to bring the issue back into something a tad more thoughtful that what the thread became- i.e. another 'Roman equals the whore of Babylon' meme, which is as you say complete nonesense (I trust that this is clear enough for you?).

I don't think that Hilton makes the link between the anti-christ and Rome in the way Len does.

In fact I think that Hilton's main issue is that he does not deal with the other actors in the formation the EU- for example France's desire to recoup 'world power' status via a united Europe as a seperate voice to what was the USSR and USA, with France naturally showing the lead. Or the German desire to be seem to be good 'team players' and europeans after the horrors of two world wars.

I suspect that the Vatican was more leaping onto the bangwagon of EU integration, rather than being the cause of it, presumably as a way of retaining influence within Europe, rather than being the centre of a conspiracy.

Having said this the EU, in my view, is the wrong choice for the UK. But that is a discussion, I think, for another thread.

19 August 2011 at 19:15  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

on the topic of the second comming/Revelation :

1. Jesus Christ himself tells us that no-one knows the exact day or hour when he is going to return except for the Father (Mark 13vs32).

2. The Apostle Paul devotes two whole Epistles to this theme, i.e. 1 and 2 Thessalonians, specifically the attitude the Christian must have towards this very special future event.

3.The book of revelation is written in a particular apol poetic prose style. We must also look at the context- who were the first readers and why was the book written in the first place?

I think some people do try to find modern meanings for all the tinest details in this book of the Bible. Others try and work out a time table of events from it, something which needs to be avoided like the plague. Revelation is not a CODE BOOK waiting to be cracked and the details are there to build up an inspiring overall picture of God defeating evil.

19 August 2011 at 19:52  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Paul Twigg

Very graciously and thoughtfully written. I too have major doubts about the EU and the different agendas at play.

The 'problem' I have with Hitlon position is that he he sees the EU as a Catholic threat to protestant Britain. To me this harks back to the dark days of Roman Catholicism when many in its heirarchy embraced temporal rather than spiritual power and wealth.

As I've said before I believe Britain should retain as much sovereignty as is consistent with being a member of a commonwealth of independent trading nations. Ideally sharing a set of common Christian values if not denominational unity. We have a unique culture and a right to determine our own destiny according to the will of the people.

People of different religious and secular persuasions have different political solutions to the the economic and social issues of our times.

19 August 2011 at 21:48  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


A helpful and informative collection of quotes. Each can be discussed and, from my position, be shown to be either wrong in biblical interpretation or based on too narrow an understanding of Roman Catholicism with an exclusive focus on those times when it was failing in the commission given it by Christ.

Christ warned the Apostles His Church would face times of trial and I believe alluded to there being times when it would succumb to evil. However, he promised it Divine protection assuring them the gates of Hell would not prevail.

The references to scripture I cite are below and I know you and others will understand them differently.

So far as I see it, Christ established a visible Apostolic Church and gave it His authority to spread His message and to develop itself according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

"And I say to you: That you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

"But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you."

"I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. But when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will teach you all truth."

19 August 2011 at 22:48  
Blogger len said...

Catholicism is built on a false foundation which why it preaches wrong doctrines.If the foundation is not true the whole building will be misaligned.

The 'rock'is not and never was Peter this is a twisting or at best a misinterpretation of scripture .The 'rock' is Christ ever was and ever will be.

Catholicism is built on one wrongly interpreted(at best Scripture)

20 August 2011 at 08:54  
Blogger len said...

For other foundation NO ONE can lay, but that which has been laid, which is Christ Jesus. (I Corinthians 3:11)

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST). (I Corinthians 10:4).

Jesus said to them, "Did ye never read in the Scriptures, The stone which the builders rejectcd, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?" (Matthew 21:42) (Compare with Psalm 117:21, 23)

For they stumbled or the stumbling-stone, as it is written, "Behold I lay in Sion, a stumbling-stone and a ROCK of offence: and whosoever believeth on him (Christ) shall not be ashamed." (Romans 9:33)

Let us see what the apostle, St. Peter, had to say concerning this.

To whom coming (Christ), as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men but chosen of God, and precious,

Wherefore also it is contained in the Scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious; and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe He is preciou: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, and, a stone of stumbling, and a ROCK of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: (I Peter 2:4. 6-8)

This is The stone which was set at naught of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: For there is no other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Also the words of St. Peter, speaking of Jesus Christ, as recorded in Acts 4:11, 12)

Turning to the Old Testament we find the following:

The Lord is my ROCK, and my fortress, and my deliverer. My God, is the ROCK of refuge. Psalm 18:2, 94:22.

God was their ROCK, and the high God their redeemer. Psalm 78:35.

Unto Thee will I cry, O LORD, MY ROCK; Psalm 28:1.

Bow down Thy thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be Thou my strong ROCK, FOR A HOUSE of defense to SAVE me. for Thou art my ROCK and my FORTRESS; therefore for Thy name's sake lead me, and guide me. Psalm 31:2,3).

I will say unto God my ROCK, why hast Thou forgotten me? Psalm 41:l0.

Lead me to the ROCK that is higher than I Psalms 61:2

He Only is my ROCK and my salvation; He is my defense; I shall not be moved. In GOD is my salvation and my glory: THE ROCK of my strength, and my refuge, is in God. Trust in him at all times, ye people, Pour out your heart before him; God is a refuge for us. Selah Psalm 62:6-8

To shew that the Lord is upright: He is my ROCK, and there is no unrighteousness in Him. Psalm92:15.

but the Lord is my defense; and MY GOD IS THE ROCK of my refuge. Psalm 94:22.

O Come, let us sing unto THE LORD; let us make a joyful noise to THE ROCK of our salvation. Psalm 95:1.

The stone which the builders refused is become the head of the corner. This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. Psalm 118:22, 23.

Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Isaiah 28:16.

Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto OUR GOD! He is THE ROCK, His work is perfect: for all his ways are judgement: Deuteronomy 32:3,4.

Then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed THE ROCK of his salvation. Deuteronomy 32:15, 18).

And he said: THE LORD IS MY ROCK, and my fortress, and my deliverer II Samuel 22:2.

20 August 2011 at 08:56  
Blogger len said...

If your 'rock'is the Catholic church you (without doubt) are standing on the wrong foundation.The house built on sand.

20 August 2011 at 08:58  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

The words of of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ:

"And I say to you: That you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

"But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you."

"I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. But when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will teach you all truth."

20 August 2011 at 10:50  
Blogger len said...

Dodo "I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. But when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will teach you all truth."

If you believe the above statement why do you need the Pope to interpret scripture for you?.
Why not practice what you preach?

20 August 2011 at 16:33  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


Because I believe these words were directed to the Apostolic Church which was given authority by Christ.

I do not believe Christ gave authority to all men to interpret scripture as they saw fit.

20 August 2011 at 22:33  
Blogger len said...

The word "church" comes from the Greek term ekklesia which is formed from two Greek words meaning "an assembly" and "to call out" or "called out ones." In summary, the New Testament church is a body of believers who have been called out from the world by God to live as his people under the authority of Jesus
Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23).

21 August 2011 at 00:55  
Blogger len said...

Dodo,I can see why you are petrified of questioning Catholic doctrine or the Popes authority I truly feel sorry for you.The following explains all!.

The Pope is called "Our Holy Father". See encyclical letter of Pope Leo XIII in the Douay Version of the Bible. He is also called "Our Most Holy Lord", Pope Pius X. See Cardinals Oath. Moreri, a famous historian said, "To make war against the Pope is to make war against God, seeing the Pope is God and God is the Pope". Decius said, "The Pope can do all things God can do". Pope Leo XIII said of himself, "The supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires, together with a perfect accord in the one faith, complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God himself." Pope Pius X said, "The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ himself hidden under the veil of the flesh. Does the Pope speak? It is Jesus Christ who speaks." Pope Pius XI once declared, "You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am God on the earth."

All this is blasphemy
There were no Roman Catholics until Christianity was merged with paganism into a state religion around 315 A.D. The true Christians obeyed God's Word, they never joined in the pagan corruption. The gates of hell have never prevailed against the true believers, they are few, their way is narrow, they would rather suffer martyrdom than compromise the Word of God or deny their Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. "Go out from her, my people, that you may not share in her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues" (Apocalypse 18:4). Believers must not be identified with compromising or counterfeit Churches!

21 August 2011 at 01:08  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


You really can be very patronising and dismissive. It is not me living in fear. My faith is liberating, inspiring and filled with joy.

Believe it or not, I do understand your objections to Catholicism. They're just 500 years out of date! Like all human systems it has the potential to become corrupt and its history demonstates this.

Do you really think I have blindly followed Catholicism since childhood and haven't questioned both Christianity and Roman Catholicism?

My faith is a questioning faith and I can assure you there is sufficient room within Roman Catholicism for me to walk in a personal relationship with Christ.

21 August 2011 at 14:17  

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