Tuesday, October 25, 2011

“For me, constituency and country must come before the baubles of ministerial office”


There are no better words than those of Stewart Jackson MP, until yesterday PPS to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Owen Paterson. He told the House of Commons and the whole nation: “For me, constituency and country must come before the baubles of ministerial office. I will keep that faith with my constituents and with a heavy heart, I will vote for the motion and I will take the consequences.”

And so he was duly sacked. Adam Holloway MP resigned on the floor of the House. The Prime Minister suffered the largest rebellion over ‘Europe’ of any prime minister since the UK joined the EEC in 1973. The perception is that David Cameron believes exactly the same on the EU as Ed Miliband, who believes exactly the same as Nick Clegg. The political élite are apparently in perpetual collusion to surrender the people’s sovereignty to an unelected and unaccountable government in Brussels. The rebellion dwarfs that suffered by John Major over Maastricht, when the ‘bastards’ numbered just 41. Cameron has 81 ‘bastards’. When more than half of your backbenchers reject your authority – including the Chairman of the 1922 Committee – something is clearly awry. Discipline has broken down: trust has evaporated. And let us be in no doubt, had this division not been so heavily whipped, the vote against the Government would have been far higher.

Below is the Role of Honour of those patriots who voted simply to let the people decide their political destiny. These are they who have laid down their careers over a point of principle. These are they who deserve to be reselected by any associations who may be facing boundary changes. In defying their party whips, they have put liberty and democracy above petty matters of party politics. Some of them told their leaders where to go in no uncertain terms; others did so with a heavy heart. If you happen to meet any, please express your gratitude. If you can be bothered, please write to one or two and thank them.

Conservative:

Steven Baker (Wycombe)
John Baron (Basildon and Billericay)
Andrew Bingham (High Peak)
Brian Binley (Northampton South)
Bob Blackman (Harrow East)
Peter Bone (Wellingborough)
Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West)
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire)
Steve Brine (Winchester)
Fiona Bruce (Congleton)
Dan Byles (North Warwickshire)
Douglas Carswell (Clacton)
Bill Cash (Stone)
Christopher Chope (Christchurch)
James Clappison (Hertsmere)
Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford)
David TC Davies (Monmouth)
Philip Davies (Shipley)
David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden)
Nick de Bois (Enfield North)
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport)
Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire)
Richard Drax (South Dorset)
Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster)
Lorraine Fullbrook (South Ribble)
Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park)
James Gray (North Wiltshire)
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry)
Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and Sheppey)
George Hollingberry (Meon Valley)
Philip Hollobone (Kettering)
Adam Holloway (Gravesham)
Stewart Jackson (Peterborough)
Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex)
Marcus Jones (Nuneaton)
Chris Kelly (Dudley South)
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire)
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford)
Edward Leigh (Gainsborough)
Julian Lewis (New Forest East)
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes)
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley)
Karl McCartney (Lincoln)
Stephen McPartland (Stevenage)
Anne Main (St Albans)
Patrick Mercer (Newark)
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley)
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot)
James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis)
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester)
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall)
David Nuttall (Bury North)
Matthew Offord (Hendon)
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton)
Priti Patel (Witham)
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole)
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin)
Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood)
John Redwood (Wokingham)
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset)
Simon Reevell (Dewsbury)
Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury)
Andrew Rossindell (Romford)
Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills)
Henry Smith (Crawley)
John Stevenson (Carlisle)
Bob Stewart (Beckenham)
Gary Streeter (South West Devon)
Julian Sturdy (York Outer)
Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle)
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon)
Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight)
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes)
Charles Walker (Broxbourne)
Robin Walker (Worcester)
Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire)
Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley)
John Whittingdale (Maldon)
Karen Lumley (Redditch)
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North)

Labour:

Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley)
Rosie Cooper (Lancashire West)
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North)
Jon Cruddas (Dagenham & Rainham)
John Cryer (Leyton & Wanstead)
Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West)
Natascha Engel (Derbyshire North East)
Frank Field (Birkenhead)
Roger Godsiff (Birmingham Hall Green)
Kate Hoey (Vauxhall)
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North)
Steve McCabe (Birmingham Selly Oak)
John McDonnell (Hayes & Harlington)
Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby)
Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)
Andrew Smith (Oxford East)
Graham Stringer (Blackley & Broughton)
Gisela Stuart (Birmingham Edgbaston)
Mike Wood (Batley & Spen)

Liberal Democrat

Adrian Sanders (Torbay)

DUP:

Gregory Campbell (Londonderry East)
Nigel Dodds (Belfast North)
Jeffrey Donaldson (Lagan Valley)
Rev William McCrea (Antrim South)
Ian Paisley Junior (Antrim North)
Jim Shannon (Strangford)
David Simpson (Upper Bann)
Sammy Wilson (Antrim East)

Green

Caroline Lucas (Brighton Pavilion)

Independent:

Sylvia, Lady Hermon (Down North)

75 Comments:

Blogger bluedog said...

Your Grace

The Honour Roll of gallant lads and lasses is long enough to shatter Dave's self-confidence.

A collateral benefit of Dave's own Eurogoal is that the proposed re-arrangement of the Act of Settlement is likely to be abandoned as too risky by far, in the circumstances.

One awaits a comment from Clegg with bated breath. Better still is the prospect of a spray from the likes of Cable or Huhne.

25 October 2011 at 09:39  
Blogger non mouse said...

Thank you, Your Grace, for publishing this list. Perhaps the rest of us can thank them here, as well.

25 October 2011 at 10:10  
Blogger English Pensioner said...

The MPs that you list believe in Democracy.
The rest believe in an elected party dictatorship, reminiscent of the situation in Russia where the PM and president swap jobs at regular intervals. With us it is Labour and Tory, but without any policy change.

25 October 2011 at 10:20  
Blogger Chris Gillibrand said...

Chamberlain went in 1940 when 38 voted against the whip and 20-25 abstained.

My Lord will be pleased to know that I attended Anglican service last Friday.

25 October 2011 at 10:29  
Blogger Chris Gillibrand said...

Here in Kuwait

25 October 2011 at 10:30  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Mr Gillibrand,

His Grace is indeed delighted. Presumably you took advantage of the dispenation clause 'in extremis', and did not partake of any 'Catholic-lite' bread and wine ;o)

25 October 2011 at 10:45  
Blogger Hereward said...

Cameron deserved this rebuff.
He feigns euroscepticism when it suits him but behind the mask is a fanatical liberal europhiliac whose
contempt for British independence is endangering our survival as a free people.

25 October 2011 at 11:18  
Blogger David Lindsay said...

Cameron now has 81 "impossible" MPs so far as Ministerial office is concerned. Two of them were PPSes 24 hours ago. The rest of his MPs must be very, very, very pleased indeed. Apart from the Whips, that is. What are they supposed to do with 81 people who have nothing to lose?

Yes, but the motion that there was. These are the 19 Labour MPs who voted for it: Ronnie Campbell, Rosie Cooper, Jeremy Corbyn, Jon Cruddas, John Cryer, Ian Davidson, Natascha Engel, Frank Field, Roger Godsiff, Kate Hoey, Kelvin Hopkins, Steve McCabe, John McDonnell, Austin Mitchell, Dennis Skinner, Andrew Smith, Graham Stringer, Gisela Stuart, Mike Wood. They were joined by the Labour-aligned Unionist Lady Sylvia Hermon and by the Lib Dem Adrian Sanders. I have yet to check abstentions. So, the 21-member core of the potential campaign for something better, namely legislation with five simple clauses.

First, the restoration of the supremacy of British over EU law, and its use to repatriate agricultural policy and to restore our historic fishing rights in accordance with international law. Secondly, the requirement that, in order to have any effect in the United Kingdom, all EU law pass through both Houses of Parliament as if it had originated in one or other of them. Thirdly, the requirement that British Ministers adopt the show-stopping Empty Chair Policy until such time as the Council of Ministers meets in public and publishes an Official Report akin to Hansard.

Fourthly, the disapplication in the United Kingdom of any ruling of the European Court of Justice or of the European Court of Human Rights (or of the Supreme Court) unless confirmed by a resolution of the House of Commons. And fifthly, the disapplication in the United Kingdom of anything passed by the European Parliament but not by the majority of those MEPs certified as politically acceptable by one or more seat-taking members of the House of Commons.

25 October 2011 at 12:17  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

Thank you for this list. I searched on-line but couldn't find the list. Maybe you could enlighten us Cranmer as to where we can find out how our MP voted on individual votes? I would be most grateful.

I shall be dispensing a number of congratulatory letters (and tweets if I can find their user-names ... anyone able to help me out?).

Particularly pleased to see a couple of names on the list ... including Graham Stringer & Philip Davies.

A disappointing number (1) of Liberal rebels ... given that it was a manifesto "commitment" (though there are those of us who realise such a statement is an oxymoron).

Let's hope this is the beginning of the end for party whips. A house of 650 independents is what we require - politicians who work for their constituents, not their parties (like it was meant to be all along).

25 October 2011 at 12:56  
Blogger David Lindsay said...

Those of us who remember 66 invisible Labour MPs who voted against Maastricht when only 22 Tories did, or 44 who voted against the European Finance Bill when the Whip was withdrawn from half a dozen Tories for doing nothing more than abstain, were entirely unsurprised that neither Newsnight, nor The Record, nor Today in Parliament, reported one word of the sterling speeches delivered by John Cryer, Roger Godsiff, Ian Davidson, Kate Hoey and Kelvin Hopkins.

Ed Miliband should promise legislation with the five simple clausesthat I set out above and no need, either for never-ending "renegotiation" (by whom, exactly?), or for a costly and distracting referendum. He should spell out clearly that we are presently subject to the legislative will of Stalinists and Trotskyists, neo-Fascists and neo-Nazis, neoconservatives such as now run France and Germany, members of Eastern Europe's kleptomaniac nomenklatura, people who believe the Provisional Army Council to be the sovereign body throughout Ireland, and Dutch ultra-Calvinists who will not have women as candidates.

No wonder that last night's Labour rebels included Ian Davidson, Frank Field, Roger Godsiff and Kate Hoey, the heirs of Douglas Jay and Peter Shore. No wonder that last night's Tory rebels included Robin Walker and Sir Peter Tapsell, one the literal heir of Peter Walker, the other the same old Peter Tapsell, as splendidly Keynesian, pro-Commonwealth and anti-neoconservative as ever. And no wonder that the Liberal Party and the SDP, both of which still exist, are now so very critical of the EU. We are the centre. The federalists are the extremists and the anti-democrats.

25 October 2011 at 13:04  
Blogger Gnostic said...

My MP (Eric Ollerenshaw) isn't on that list. I didn't expect him to be. You see, he only puts his loyal mit in the air when Cameron tells him to. He has never rebelled. I expect that if Cameron farted Ollerenshaw would breathe in deeply.

Spineless creep.

It's no consolation that I didn't vote for the bugger.

25 October 2011 at 13:12  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Ed Miliband should promise legislation...

...

Sorry, but I'm too busy laughing my socks off at the very notion of trusting a power hungry party leader to deliver on a promise to make a comment.

25 October 2011 at 13:16  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

I shall start my own list of twitter names for these patriots. I've started off with some local to myself. Maybe others can contribute:

Philip Davies (Conservative, Shipley) - @PhilipDaviesMP

Simon Reevell (Conservative, Dewsbury) - @simonreevell

Jason McCartney (Conservative, Colne Valley) - @JasonMcCartney

Rosie Cooper - (Labour, Lancs West) - @rosiecoopermp

25 October 2011 at 13:44  
Blogger martin sewell said...

Cameron says there is no " bad blood".

If he meant it, and had any class , he would
declare an " amnesty" for " rebels" and keep his
PPS's to put substance into the spin that there is
no real difference within a party united to re- patriate
powers.

He has cut the likes of Cable much more slack.

25 October 2011 at 14:03  
Blogger Atlas shrugged said...

The political élite are apparently in perpetual collusion to surrender the people’s sovereignty to an unelected and unaccountable government in Brussels.

Of that you can be most safely assured.

However the thing to remember is that our Political elite has got very little to do with the likes of either Cameron Clegg or Milliband, who are nothing but front men for the establishment.

There are clearly powers driving The EU agenda which have no intention of turning back now whatever the cost to the people of their native land, be it France, Germany, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, UK, Poland, or Netherlands.

The longer this debate goes on the more time, and therefore opportunities these determined psychopaths will have to pick off their opponents one by one, or in great big chunks.

Indeed I would say, that the writing was well and truly on the wall the day Thatcher was FORCED to resign 20 odd years ago.

Please understand ALL is utterly subverted. Thus, the British people do not have the slightest hope in hell of ever breaking free from their hopeless captivity, least not because they have NEVER actually been free in the first place, but where simply working on the cruelly created illusionary assumption that they were once free, at some time in the mythological past.

Are ruling elites care about our opinions on this as well as all other matters, no more, or less then a notably callous Concentration Camp Commandant, cared about the opinions of his particular enslaved captives back in 44.

If you still doubt the above proposition, then please start paying proper attention to the world around you. By so doing, you will undoubtedly be forced to utterly change your mind, soon enough.

25 October 2011 at 14:23  
Blogger David Lindsay said...

Tristan Garel-Jones has just told them to join "a little party somewhere that wants to leave the EU". That is the word from the grandees, including Cameron: they can all clear off to UKIP.

Then they can all lose their seats the way the SDP did; large numbers of Labour supporters wholly or broadly agreed with the SDP, just as large numbers of Conservative supporters wholly or broadly agree with UKIP, but voting in this country is tribal.

And the numbers will be made by the Lib Dems, organisationally absorbed into, but ideologically absorbing of, the Tory machine like the Liberal Unionists, Liberal Imperialists and National Liberals before them.

That is what Cameron actively wants to happen.

25 October 2011 at 14:36  
Blogger Belsay Bugle said...

They might just sense the way the wind's blowing and be the future.

I have a feeling that Cameron's just made the biggest mistake of his political life.

25 October 2011 at 15:11  
Blogger Oswin said...

Belsay Bugle: Let's hope that it is indeed the ''biggest mistake of his political life'' as I wouldn't wish him to make a bigger one, whilst he remained as our Prime Minister. God forbid!

25 October 2011 at 15:24  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

I notice that there's only one Welsh MP on that list? Shame on them. Of course Wales' economy is dependent on handouts from the EU so they don't want to break ties at all. They cannot see that they might get more funding for enterprise if Britain didn't have to pay so much into the EU in the first instance. than the drops they get now which are too small to be of any real use.

25 October 2011 at 15:40  
Blogger Berserker said...

One of the EU jokes doing the rounds: A Portuguese, a German and a Spaniard go into a bar fro a drink - the 'German' pays!

A tad weak - here is my version: A Portuguese a German and a Spaniard go into a bar for a drink - they spy an Englishman outside looking a bit lonely and call out: 'Hey, Mr Englishman, come in and have a drink with us.' So he comes in and later they decide to have a meal there and finally the waiter comes round with the bill.

The German pays and the Englishman says lovely meal, enjoyable company and leaves the tip.

Does all this talk of our renegotiating various aspects of the EU mean anything? Not on your Nellie! If it worked, which it won't, we would still be paying 44 million quid a year into the EU coffers. So here's a thought, if we got out completely, that 44 million or more could go into a fund for getting small businesses back on their feet.
I see that former MEP Cleggy (he buttered his bread early on) has started the propaganda machine saying if we left the EU we would be on the margins of Europe. The next line will probably be prohibitive tariffs and taxes on our goods.

Does anyone know why the honourable gent from Torbay defied the full might of Cleggy and voted for the motion? Or that strange Green lady from Brighton did her thing. Must be something in the sea air.

25 October 2011 at 15:41  
Blogger Berserker said...

Sorry, I mean 44 million quid a day.

25 October 2011 at 15:45  
Blogger James Reade said...

What shall we have a referendum on next? Perhaps we should just have a referendum for every decision a government makes?

Or perhaps we should let a government govern instead, based on the rather bizarre idea that we actually elect governments every five years or so?

Why should we have a referendum on an issue that just 4% of the population, according to IPSOS-Mori, actually care about this enough to list it as a major issue? (oh and if you think this poll isn't the right one to use, then please tell me what makes your poll more reliable than this one - after all, you guys always tell us just how much of the population apparently agree with you).

Why now don't all the euro sceptics pipe down and wait for the great fury unleashed by this event to result in the government being turfed out next election? Oh, wait, you have no faith in democracy, do you? Yet you "wanted democracy" here. Somewhat selective it would seem...

25 October 2011 at 17:27  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

New EU petition!

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20133

What a suprise - I've signed already.

Just keep doing it until they give in .....

25 October 2011 at 17:39  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace

What a magnificent turnout. And quite remarkable with a three line whip. These courageous people will not be forgotten by you – the Inspector is sure of that. Far from a predictable defeat, that day can be marked as the start of the fight back official. One can only wonder at what the result would have been had it been a vote of conscience.

With the so called bailout fund reaching truly staggering figures (…while we patiently wait for Greece to decide to live within it’s means instead of ours…), no doubt others will join this cross party battle group. Perhaps on each occasion this will happen, Your Grace might celebrate with a posting. With plenty more ‘Greeces’ just waiting to happen, it won’t be long…

25 October 2011 at 18:25  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Thank you, Inspector! Please don't scare us again.

25 October 2011 at 18:34  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Reade How do feel about good dead fish being thrown back thanks to the EU....

How do you feel about the British fishing fleets destruction

How do you feel about EU corruption.

How do you feel about each country except the UK NOT obeying the rules

How do you feel about ‘intervention’ buying, to keep the price of our food up

How do I feel about people like you....

25 October 2011 at 18:34  
Blogger VotePeterShields.co.uk said...

James Reade said... "Perhaps we should just have a referendum for every decision a government makes?

What a good idea. Now that we have the means for people to vote on every issue themselves we no long need a representative voting on our behalf (though of course, they don't vote on our behalf but on behalf of their political party). It's called direct democracy, and it works. Some forward thinking, pioneering (not to mention handsome) people actually stood on such a platform at the last general election.

"Why should we have a referendum on an issue that just 4% of the population actually care about"
Can I presume you've never actually done any political canvassing then. Other than immigration, it's the only thing people actually get very animated about.

Europe is THE issue, for everything else is increasingly dependent upon it (as is the intention): everything else is simply a re-arrangement of the deck-chairs.

25 October 2011 at 18:35  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Avi It’s the Inspector's pleasure old chap..

25 October 2011 at 18:51  
Blogger Gavin said...

Seventeen months ago, I danced and whooped with joy as I watched the odious Gordon Brown leave Downing Street for the last time on my TV set (and with him, the rest of his odious socialist Party).
It did not seem to matter TOO much at the time that Labour was to be replaced by an unsteady "needs must" coalition, as surely any alternative government would be an improvement over Labour, even if only a small improvement...?

Now I find myself wondering, did all that really happen, or did I just dream it? Is it really possible that only 17 months later, I have come to regard David Cameron with equal...no, actually with a greater degree of contempt than that which I had for Brown? I can scarcely believe myself, but yes, it is possible, I really do feel that way.

Well done, to each Honourable Member on the above list. I shall indeed write to thank my own MP, whose name I am pleased to find included there. However, I shall have to also tell him that I shall no longer be voting for him, unless he crosses the floor and joins UKIP. For he may be an honourable man himself, but by remaining a Conservative he is a representative of what is now a thoroughly dishonourable Party.

25 October 2011 at 18:59  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Gavin Cameron just pips it. You see, with Brown, we got what we were expecting, a professed socialist. As for Cameron, we all thought he was a Conservative, but he’s left that leadership post vacant and is now Clegg’s LD superior...

25 October 2011 at 19:04  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

25 October 2011 at 19:05  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Archbishop To paraphrase Admiral Beatty, “There seems to be something wrong with our bloody software today !”

25 October 2011 at 19:09  
Blogger Gavin said...

Inspector G, I can have a measure of respect for a committed socialist who SAYS he is a socialist, STANDS for election as a socialist, TELLS us what his policies will be, and then enacts them in precisely that way. I would not vote for such a person, but I would respect them for standing on their ground, however misguided I believe Labour/socialism to be.

David Cameron, though, is something else. He PURPORTED to be a conservative (albeit a rather middle-ground one, fair enough) and he made one or two "cast-iron" pledges about what he would do if elected. He also gave a broad indication of the general direction he would take on other issues (such as "rolling back Labour's huge swathe of unnecessary legislation", or "reversing the tide of the Human Rights legislation"). On both counts, he has regened upon his word. He is no better than the proverbial unsolicited email scam-artist who promises you this or that. Shame on him for being a man whose word is worthless. Shame on me too, for having been fooled into voting for his party. Had I known what was to come, I would have vo- ... I would have vot-(gulp, sorry, it is difficult for me to say these words)...I would have voted for Gordon Brown (there, I've said it). I would rather have a misguided yet honest socialist in office, than this snake-oil salesman.

25 October 2011 at 19:23  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Gavin. The Inspector concurs, at least up to that bit about voting for Brown. We voters put so much trust in each party’s election manifesto, even after decades of disappointments. What really irks about Cameron is that he’s totally shameless. (qv his recent‘concerns' about the EU he is desperate to stay in). Not a man of honour. Have made the point before that his speeches are obviously written for him, but you’d think he’d give his staff an idea of his thinking. Don’t think he’s as devious as he seems – a bit of a thickoe really. Recall Obama’s delegation described him as a lightweight. God bless America !!

25 October 2011 at 19:33  
Blogger Gavin said...

What I find interesting about my own feelings re Cameron/the Con. Party, is that I count myself as a sort of traditionalist conservative, and here is a party leader whose ideas/actions I cannot go along with. Hence, I find myself a "Protestant" with regards to the Con. Party, ie, I believe that my vision of Conservatisnm is somehow truer than that being presently practised by the established Party. They have "gone wrong" and they need to stand back and rediscover what is really important within conservatism.

This makes me think very hard, because surely in this regard, I am thinking in a similar way as Christian Protestants think towards the RC church? I find myself thinking, Catholicism demands obedience to the Church - yet could there be a set of circumstances where the RC church was clearly losing its way, and where I would reach a "tipping point" and would have to place my allegiance to the Gospel (ie, to Christ) before my allegiance to my organised denomination?
I'm not saying that I am anywhere near such a point in my relationship to my church, all I'm saying is that I'm in such a place re my allegiance to Conservatism (no longer trusting the established Party), and that it is an interesting thing to think about. It gives me a sort of first-hand insight into the essence of Protestantism.

25 October 2011 at 19:51  
Blogger tonto said...

Abraham Lincoln said you can fool all the people some of the time andsomeof the people all of the time, but you can't fool all the people all of the time.
P.S. Where is tiddles ?

25 October 2011 at 19:59  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Gavin

Intereating analogy. Except, despite what some might think, the Conservative Party wasn't established by Christ, it's leadership should be democratic and it isn't under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

You can, if you so wish, withdraw your support, temporarily or permantently, and vote whatever way you chose.

25 October 2011 at 20:18  
Blogger VotePeterShields.co.uk said...

Gavin / Way of the Dodo ...

Political parties are the equivalent of Old Testament religion: our political "high priests" enter the "holy of holies" to intercede/legislate on our behalf. Once every 5 years we get to choose a new priest, but basically they all belong to the tribe of Levi.

Direct democracy is New Testament religion: no need for a mediator, we have direct access to the throne ourselves.

Political parties are the problem. Can I be so vain as to recommend you read this short article I wrote?

25 October 2011 at 20:57  
Blogger bluedog said...

"No bad blood, no rancor, no bitterness', gimme a break, Your Grace.

PR spiv Dave is just biding his time by following the Kennedy rule of 'don't get mad, get even'.

But still Dave doesn't understand. Even if the immediate Euro-crisis is resolved by a bigger bailout fund and bigger haircuts are offset by bigger recaps of the banks, nothing has changed from a structural point of view. All these measures do is simply defer the next crisis. The Euro will only become a stable currency when a European Federation is created as sole Sovereign of the Euro-currency. Once and if that is achieved, and if Britain is not incorporated in the Euro-Federation, Britain will have no more right to interfer in the workings in Europe than it is able to interfer in the workings of the United States. Yet Dave talks about not ceding more powers to Europe. This a point on which you cannot argue both ways, as Dave does.

When will the Tory grandees grasp this point? Even Old McCanny, Malcolm Rifkind doesn't understand, if his recent utterings are any guide.

25 October 2011 at 21:09  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

Does anybody happen to know how these patriots feel about the impending Scottish referendum?

25 October 2011 at 21:25  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Gavin. Just shows how we look to the leader of a party to be the embodiment of what we ourselves believe. Were the Conservatives so pushed that they had to have Cameron; surely there were more suitable candidates ? On the subject of the RCC, do as the Inspector does and leave out the obedience bit. He treats the church as a source of comfort, but he does disagree with it’s position on contraception – something Christ was quiet on. So, rubbers for Africa anyone – isn’t 7 billion, the majority dirt poor, enough !!

bluedog. Agreed. The Inspector is at a loss at this ‘renegotiation’ business. You either in and get swallowed up, or you’re out and free. This 3rd way on a hypothetical referendum form is nonsense.

25 October 2011 at 21:37  
Blogger len said...

And the illusion that we are living in a Democracy has disappeared like the morning dew in the sunshine.
We are being led by a group of men who have a definite agenda which has nothing to do with that of the electorate.

25 October 2011 at 23:15  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector

You're sounding like an Anglican, oldchap! Artificially break the link between sexual unity and the transmission of life and all sorts of other compromises follow. Just look around you at modern morality. What with this and the liberal views on homosexuality you've expressed!

Anyway, didn't you say on an earlier thread that condoms would be useless in Africa anyway because of cultural reasons?

25 October 2011 at 23:18  
Blogger bluedog said...

Well said Mr OIG, and Mr Len too, good to see you on the same page, to use the modern vernacular.

And yes, Your Grace, the traitor Clegg has pronounced and did not disappoint. Clegg's words could have been/were scripted by the finest minds of the Lib-Dem caucus. Your communicant would not be surprised to learn that the final draft of Clegg's statement had been cleared by Jose Manuel Barosso himself. "“Eurosceptics need to be quite careful for what they wish for, because if they succeed – and they won’t succeed, as long as I’m in government – to push this country towards the exit sign, let’s be clear: that [what] will be damaged is British families, British businesses, British jobs,”.

Utter piffle. As even Dave understands, currently British families, British businesses, British jobs are being damaged by the grossly disfunctional EU.

How can unilateral departure from the European Project make things worse?

Your communicant awaits a pronouncement from Clegg that 'internal pressures' may force the Lib-Dems to reconsider their position in the Coalition if the Conservatives persist in their lack of committment to the EU.

25 October 2011 at 23:41  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

A further bit of research has uncovered these twitter names, should you wish to express your gratitude:

Steven Baker (Wycombe) @sjbaker

Steve Brine (Winchester), @sbrine

Dan Byles (North Warwickshire), @danielbyles

Douglas Carswell (Clacton), @DouglasCarswell

Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford), @tracey_crouch

Philip Davies (Shipley), @PhilipDaviesMP

Nick de Bois (Enfield North) @nickdebois

James Gray (North Wiltshire) @JamesGrayMP

Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) @chhcalling

George Hollingberry (Meon Valley) @George4MVMP

Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) @SJacksonMP

Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire), @andrealeadsom

Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) @JasonMcCartney

Karl McCartney (Lincoln) @karlmccartney

Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot), @AMMorrisMP

James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) @JamesMorrisMP

Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) @mp4chester

Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall), @sheryllmurray

Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood),@markreckless

John Redwood (Wokingham), @johnredwood

Simon Reevell (Dewsbury), @simonreevell

Andrew Rossindell (Romford), @AndrewRosindell

Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire), @HeatherWheeler

26 October 2011 at 02:46  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. A couple of examples where the RCC changed it’s mind - Eating fish on a Friday (save Good Friday) and women covering their heads in church. The Inspector is sure you could come up with spiritual and ethical arguments on why these two should have been KEPT. As for Just look around you at modern morality, hope you’re not suggesting that it’s entirely down to ‘contraception on demand’. Appreciate your earlier views on sexual unity and the transmission of life, but you can’t feed the world’s starving with dogma. The Inspector hopes the world’s starving comes first in your book, dear fellow. (…Incidentally, new approach in Africa is to target women with feminine products, as Sampson and the bros don’t want to know when it comes to their responsibilites..)

Finally, the Inspector remains compassionate about homosexuality. Believes they have enough on their plate without celibate clergy chasing after them when they're quiet and keeping to themselves...

26 October 2011 at 18:38  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector

You are of course entitled to exercise your consciouse, although the requirement is that this is properly informed. The examples you give are matters of church discipline rather than theology or doctrine. It is the same with fasting before the Eucharist - now 1hour when at one time it was 12 hours.

The Church's views on human sexuality are based on long standing teachings linking sexual union with the transmission of life. Is it a lack of compassion to ask people to follow what is understood to be the will of God? If you start to make exceptions to what you judge to be sinful on the grounds of compassion, where do you draw the line? Divorce? Abortion? Euthanasia? Homosexual marriage?

Don't go getting all liberal, now!

26 October 2011 at 18:56  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Gavin says “Hence, I find myself a "Protestant" with regards to the Con. Party, [believing] that my vision of Conservatism is somehow truer than that being presently practised by the established Party” and he suggests that Catholics have a similar unthinking obedience to priests and bishops. Let me assure you Gavin, that is very far from the truth and Catholics are showing a little more independence than you are prepared to do for a politcal party. We have a leadership which has completely failed children and left them at the mercy of perverts. That’s not a problem of Catholic belief. However it is indicative of the fact that we have a lot of traitors in the upper eschelons. This is not a new problem. Jesus mentioned that the Jews had the same problem when he walked this Earth but he didn’t support a ‘protestant’ reformation then and insisted on obedience to what the Jewish leaders taught. The parallels with today must be obvious. Contrary to popular belief the proportion of perverts in the Catholic Church is no higher than the proportion in the Protestant or Jewish or Muslim religions. It was a failure of leadership not doctrine. It seems the rot set in with Vatican Council II. Is it just a coincidence that the sexual revolution of the 60s and the continuing decline in morals coincided with the change in the holy sacrifice of the mass. There are plenty of Catholics complaining about the watering down of the faith in Catholic schools, homosexual masses, new age theology and pantheism proclaimed by some heretics who call themselves priests. The question is why don’t they just leave and set up their own church. The reason is quite sinister really. The Catholic Church is the main target of satan. That is why his followers try to obtain the sacred body of our Lord consecrated at mass so that they can desecrate it with their disgusting rituals. If the satanists see it clearly, why can’t you.

26 October 2011 at 19:20  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo Remember we are from dust and to dust we will return. We’ve done quite well for sinning dust with a soul inside. God knows what we go through. We could have been created with a higher average IQ and aversion to killing, but we weren't. Perhaps as God might say, “that would be removing half the fun, old chap”.

The Inspector abhors being associated with the word ‘liberal’ !! Had to reach for the single malt, he’ll have you know...

Shacklefree. The Inspector remembers the Tridentine mass from as a child. Had the honour of attending a service in the nineties. Beautiful service, and the women covered their heads so your man couldn’t gaze on their beauty, and was able to concentrate on what was going on. Will never forget that day...

26 October 2011 at 20:15  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Forgot to mention it was in Latin too. Now there's beauty for you...

26 October 2011 at 20:21  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Dominus Vobiscum Inspector.

26 October 2011 at 20:23  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

In the context of referring back to a time before the banal liturgy of the new mass, let us not forget the beautiful musical patrimony of the Anglican Church. It is fortunate for Catholics that the Anglican priests who have joined the Catholic Church under the new ordinariate rite will be bringing this beautiful heritage with them and if I get the chance to attend, I will do so in preference to the ‘new mass’. I think that the ‘new and odd looking church’ prophesied by Catherine Emmerich in the 1820s may well turn out to be the mass of the second Vatican council and the sooner we get rid of it the better. This has turned out to be a real sign of contradiction in the present times.

26 October 2011 at 21:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Quite Shacklefree. Now that people are a little more ‘clever’ these days, ie can use electronic equipment, perhaps Benedict XVI can review why so much of the beautiful Catholic tradition was swept aside by John XXIII in a futile attempt to make the church more 'with it’ and 'stupid friendly'....

26 October 2011 at 21:39  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector and Shacklefree

Times do change and some things can move with the times - some things cannot.

The Latin Mass has been approved by the Pope and should be available in every diocese. Personally, I think the Mass in English is more accessible for vast majority of people. The Tridentine Mass in Latin is more majestic and mysterious. Both are valid. One thing that is troubling many Catholics is the seeming lack of respect shown the Eucharist since the introduction of 'communion in the hand'. Is the 'real presence' still shown the reverence it is due?

Now Inspector, forgive me if I spell out some basic theology. God did not put sin in our hearts -the fall of man did. We are all born predisposed to sin. Baptism frees us from the guilt of original sin and membership of Christ's body offers forgiveness for actual sin we personally commit if we are sorry. The sacraments are there tohelp us. God doesn't see this as amusing at all and remember sin harms us individually and as a community.

Shacklefree the Church has always been under assault. Have faith in it's ability to withstand evil. Vatican II may or may not have been responsible. At the very least it created a degree of confusion and a breakdown in discipline. 'Modernism' met 'Traditionalism'. Blessed John Paul and Pope Benedict both saw this. However, the presence of traitors is not new.

The clock cannot be turned back. We can pray for our Church leaders and do all we can to preserve and protect the faith in our own parishes, family and community.

26 October 2011 at 21:44  
Blogger bluedog said...

Well said, Mr Shacklefree @ 21.11. As an Anglican I attend Catholic masses for famliy reasons and was frankly shocked by the new English mass. Talk about dumbing down the liturgy, so much has been thrown away. It seems strange that the Anglican churches I attended are invariably more 'High Church' than the Roman Catholic Church.

26 October 2011 at 21:47  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Bluedog, I am not surprised you are shocked. Frankly I feel abused by the new mass and I really cannot understand why the most banal hymns are chosen and all the beautifully constructed verse with real doctrinal content was thrown out. Dumbing down describes it exactly and it was forced through by a hierarchy impervious to criticism. They thought the hankering after the old mass would go away. We are now I hope in the phase of rebuilding. I think it will take some time but I believe Almighty God will reveal something yet more glorious.

26 October 2011 at 21:56  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Actually hierarchical imperviousness brings us back to the topic with the force feeding of the electorate into a Brussels straitjacket.

26 October 2011 at 21:58  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Shacklefree

Caution, please.

Was the first 'Lord's Supper' simple or complex? It was simple as were the early 'agape' meals. Do you want congregations to understand what's going on or not? You'll know the rite of the Mass has recently been changed to strengthen its doctrinal content. You can also elect to attend a Tridentine Latin Mass.

A significant concern I have is the content of the sermons these days. I also regret the way the Sacrament of Confession (Reconciliation) has been side-lined.

Is the liturgy the problem? Or is it the 'disappearance' of Satan and Hell from the homily? When was the last time you heard him mentioned at Mass?

26 October 2011 at 23:52  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Dodo, Yes I have these concerns too but I am hoping that the new prayers will be an improvement but we will still have communion in the hand, standing to receive ratger than kneeling. Pope Benedict is beginning to restore and I notice he has great reservations about the Assisi common prayer gathering with Hindus and Muslims and any Tom Dick and Harry religion included giving the impression that all religions are equally valid. The Assissi gathering was not a good idea from JPII.

27 October 2011 at 06:35  
Blogger Preacher said...

Dodo.
"Was the first Lord's supper simple or complex?".
Well Old friend, it was a lot more complex than most people think.
The first disciples would not recognise our puny efforts to replicate the Passover. In fact they wouldn't even think it was connected to the Last Supper.

If you get the chance please attend a Messianic Jewish passover meal. I assure you that you will be truly blessed at the significance of the symbols used & it will truly educate & edify you. I would recommend the experience to all followers of Jesus, or 'Yeshua' as our messianic bretheren refer to Him by His Hebrew name.

27 October 2011 at 15:13  
Blogger Oswin said...

Preacher: that sounds very interesting. I admit to being ignorant of this area; any chance of further elaboration? Regards, Oswin.

27 October 2011 at 15:33  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

The Messianic question has been at the heart of Christianity since its beginning and clearly it was taught by Jesus to his disciples because the gospels record how they asked him for the signs preceding his return whereupon he described the signs of the times – wars rumours of wars etc. and a warning that if the time of tribulation were not shortened no-one would survive. St Paul gives a little more detail saying that Jesus will not return until after the time of anti-christ and St. John tells in Revelation that it will last for a time, two times and a half. Jesus also said we should be careful about predicting but he also advised us to consider the signs of the times and I think there is reason to suspect that perhaps the time is close. We have a world whose financial management is essentially a world-wide gambling lottery will complete collapse being possible. We have sexual perversion promoted as being healthy and good, human trafficking on a world-wide scale and we have in the modern day the destabilizing of sovereign nations by America and other strong powers for so called ‘national interest’. We have authority in the family transferred from men to women even to the extent of allowing the slaughter of 200,000 every year in Britain alone merely at the request of the mother. In addition we have a concerted push by secularists to remove the Christian religion to the very fringes of society and laws are being enacted where Christians are being persecuted not only in Islamic countries but countries claiming to promote the ideals of democracy. In such a context I think we should wonder whether the second coming of the Lord will be soon. Christ says that in those days even the elect may be deceived so In the time of the anti-christ we would expect not merely a breakdown of law and order but also a breakdown of spiritual authority and division within Christendom. Islam is rampant and is spreading its violent laws even into the heart of Britain. The political conditions are being set up for the rule of anti-christ and it is interesting to reflect what will happen when the prophecy in the Third Secret of Fatima comes true i.e. the killing of the Pope. What will happen then?

27 October 2011 at 17:07  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo Always happy to learn more about basic theology. Wish there was more time to study it personally !

27 October 2011 at 19:21  
Blogger Preacher said...

Oswin.
There are several Messianic groups & individuals who demonstrate the prophetic relevance of the passover to us.
The whole passover meal becomes a revelation of the mission that the Lord came to fulfill.

The symbolism of the various courses & their meaning in relation to the Lamb of God is stunning & deeply moving.
I suggest you get one of the many books on the subject to start with i.e 'Jesus in the feasts of Israel'. Then google to find out who is available to demonstrate the feast near to you.
Many Messianic fellowships & rabbis are happy to celebrate & explain the feast in churches & fellowships In many areas so it shouldn't be too hard to find one near you.

ENJOY!

27 October 2011 at 19:26  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Preacher and Oswin, Can I ask please - when talking about Messianic feasts are you talking about the Seder meal or something specifically Christian? Do you regard the old Jewish sactifice as being still valid?

27 October 2011 at 20:05  
Blogger Preacher said...

Shacklefree.
I view the Seder meal as an epic example of fulfilled Prophecy.
IMO Jesus Christ is the perfect sacrificial lamb as promised by God through the prophets.
The Jewish people were given the ritual as a foretelling of the role of the expected Messiah & His mission.
The first followers of Jesus were known as the Way & were Jews who understood the relevance & meaning of the Seder with regard to Jesus's incarnation & mission & of course other prophecies about His birth, life, ministry etc then fitted into the picture.
Jesus fulfilled God's promises to provide a sacrifice for mans sin, so the temple sacrifices are no longer needed. Thus the destruction of the temple in about 60 A.D closed the door on this practice.
I view both books of the Bible as relevant to us & enjoy the discovery of God's redemptive love & grace revealed in them. to me they are an adventure that invite all of men to participate.
To conclude. No I do not see the sacrifice of the Seder to be valid, as it has been fulfilled completely by Jesus. But I am not a supporter of replacement theology, as I feel it steals away the rich heritage that belongs to all who believe & follow Jesus as Lord & Saviour.
Learning about our origins is like eating a gourmet meal as compared to a fast food burger, no contest!.

27 October 2011 at 21:54  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Preacher

What a lovely summary of Jesus' mission and a simply stated but profound understanding of the Paschal meal.

Attempts to understand the relationship between God, His First Covenant with His chosen people and His New Covenant with His Christian Church is complex!

A good starting point is Paul's warning to the Gentile Church in the illustration of the olive tree. Though natural branches (Jews) were broken off the tree of Israel because of their unbelief, and wild branches (Gentiles) were grafted in their place, he warns the Gentiles not to become proud or arrogant towards their roots, lest they too be cut off:

"Do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you."
(Rom 11:18).

What complicates the theology is the arrival at the beginning of the last century of simplistic and anti-biblical Zionist eschatology held by fundamentalist Pentecostal and Evangelical Protestant sects and their end time beliefs.

The Roman Catholic position is clear. Christianity came from Judaism. The Jews are no longer in a saving covenant with God until they renounce Judaism and are baptized into Jesus Christ. The Church has affirmed this fact throughout her history. Thus, even though the Second Vatican Council affirmed a person’s civil (but not moral) right to religious liberty, it taught that the Church must preach the gospel to the Jews, as she does to everyone else (Nostra Aetate).

What lies ahead, if, when and how the Jews will be converted as a people, is whole other ball game!

28 October 2011 at 00:37  
Blogger Preacher said...

Dodo.
Thank you for your kind words.
I try to keep things simple as this is the way that God has led me to walk with Him. IMO the more complex we make it the harder it is to hear His voice & do His will.
I feel that too often we rely on others to hear from Him & relay the message on, this is unfair on them, & we miss the intimacy & blessing of a direct relationship with our Lord.
God has made it clear that He still loves the Jewish people & that He has plans that are as yet unrevealed. They are special, as the Word says "Salvation is of the Jews" & without them we would all be without hope. Without God's Lamb without spot or Blemish, ALL men are lost & IMO we will not win them to the Lord by offering them an alternative religion to their own, only the Love & freedom from fear that Jesus Christ gives can release men from the bondage of religion. It takes more effort to follow the Master. But the rewards are the inexpressable joy of a personal childlike walk with our Father, & seeing others set free to experience the same.
Apologies if I've gone on a bit, but I felt a need to express my beliefs.

Be Blessed.

28 October 2011 at 11:50  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Preacher, I had to look Replacement Theology up in Google and having read about it I would agree with you. Personally I understand the term ‘Chosen People’ to mean chosen to reveal the teaching that God was one and that was what they did. At the time this was a hugely significant event and we are all the beneficiaries. I agree that both books of the Bible are relevant and I see Jesus not rejecting the Jewish heritage but re-establishing some of the details which had been lost and correcting some deviations which had entered for example, the idea that salvation was only for the Jewish race. Certainly God Loves the Jewish people and it is always true that we don’t not know all his plans but I would be greatful for more information on the Messianic Jewish Passover meal. Is this a Christian thing – a new denomination perhaps or a Jewish denomination which recognizes Jesus as the Messiah?

28 October 2011 at 19:36  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Shacklefree

There is no one 'Messianic Christianity'. There are a number of cults using this title. Some purportto be Christian; others Judaic.

For a good exposition of some of the Chrristian thinking on the Jews and Christianity, and individual and collective conversion of the Jews, Pope Benedict's second book in the trilogy 'Jesus of Nazereth' offers a good overview.

28 October 2011 at 20:28  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Ps

Meant to say you cannot properly appreciate Christianity without understanding Judaism. Many of its rituals and practices are a wonderful foreshadowing of Jesus, the Messiah.

28 October 2011 at 22:55  
Blogger Preacher said...

Shacklefree.
Simply, all the first followers of Jesus were Jewish, so the feasts & prophecies were well known to them.
When Jesus revealed that He was the long awaited Messiah, & they responded to His call to follow Him, they were still fully Jewish but now Messianic Jews, seperate from those who rejected Jesus & opted to remain reliant on the law for salvation.
The first Apostles were all Jewish & God had to reveal to them that the gospel was now available to all who would accept Jesus as Lord & saviour, even the Gentiles (us).

As time progressed,the early church & the Jews were persecuted & as Greek thought & teaching crept into the Church a Schism occured that divided the Church from its Judaic roots. Thus the Church lost much of its rich Jewish heritage.
As the world moved into the Church the Church became more secular & religious, persecuting the Jews. Many of who understandably became suspicious & mistrustful of anything 'Christian'.

The Church grew rich & politically powerful, attracting many evil men into positions of authority. While the Jews were subjected to pogroms & slaughter. Amazingly, God kept alive a remnant of the Jews who despite everything were STILL accepting Jesus as Messiah.
At first there was not much contact between these 'Messianic' believers & the Church, but slowly the barricades came down & both sides realised that they could fellowship & learn from each other. We can learn & be enriched by understanding the roots & traditions that our faith is built upon. This makes the Old & New Testaments join in unison & makes the Word of God come alive in an entirely new way.
Please remember that we all are human & therefore fallible, so care must be excercised when we embark into new territory. So keep your brain in gear as you progress but give it a try & see. I know you will be blessed.

30 October 2011 at 17:52  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Preacher, Thank you for the reply. The first followers of Jesus as you say were Jews and unfortunately our early history shows first of all Christians being persecuted by Jews and then Jews being persecuted by Christians. Now we are all being persecuted by Muslims and secularists – it seems to be the way of humanity because atheists have done the same.

What is clear is the importance of unity and leaving behind all our past misdemeanours it is true that Jews and Christians may not yet be brothers but we are very close cousins in a way that can never occur with Islam whose law is a deviation from the basic laws of justice.

I’d like to pick up on your point about Greek thought creeping into the Church. David said “wash me clean from my guilt, purify me from my sin… My sacrifice is a broken spirit, a contrite heart you will never scorn.” Even as the annointed king he had good reason to repent because of the murder of his own loyal soldier and yet God also tells us in the Old Testament how he was going to use, not a Jewish king but the pagan king Cyrus to re-establish the Jewish sacrifice in Jerusalem and Jesus reminded his listeners that it was the Syrian Naaman who was cured of leprosy and not someone from the tribe of Israel – a comment they would have killed him for if they could because of their view that salvation was only for the Jews. I think that is the way our God works and is where he challenges those of us who are orthodox to ask if we are also loving. I make an important point of this in my book “The End of Heresy” because here we are in the present day and we are so divided, even those of us who are an authentic part of the Judaeo/Christian heritage. We cannot expect Islam to be part of this unity because they have reverted us back to the laws Jesus rejected like prohibiting the eating of certain foods. For myself I cannot possibly fail to recognize the failings of Catholics down the ages and in particular with the perverts we have in positions of authority and influence. However, as it was in the Old Testament, God works through a flawed humanity. If we weren’t flawed he would not have had to sacrifice his only son and I think it important to look at our various denominations and realise that we should not judge other denominations by the actions of traitors. We have to consider the teaching and look at the miracles and prophesies that God sends us.

31 October 2011 at 19:19  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Shacklefree

Google 'Catholics for Israel' for an good introduction to this complex and difficult area of theology.

I'm not necessarily in agreement with their views, but they do have a collection of ssays, documents and useful references.

(www.israelcatholic.com)

1 November 2011 at 00:12  
Blogger Preacher said...

Shacklefree.
Spot on. God works through flawed people, Because that's all there is. The gospel is clear on this & the examples you give are excellent.
I would like to read your book & if I see a copy I will certainly buy it.

Be Blessed Brother. Preacher.

2 November 2011 at 12:18  

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