Friday, October 21, 2011

Gaddafi goes to meet Allah

Earlier this year His Grace expounded why we must send Gaddafi the way of Saddam. Not all agreed, of course. There remains a certain disquiet among Christians on the matter of capital punishment, for our God is one of love and forgiveness, and life is a sacred gift. There are those today who object to this apparent 'summary execution', bemoaning the lack of justice and a fair trial. Doubtless Gaddafi would have been found guilty, and enlightened Christians would then have demanded his incarceration for a very long time. A few Scots would eventually have granted parole on compassionate grounds. He does look a bit ill, after all.

To those who object to Gaddafi's execution or the manner of it, His Grace urges you to save us your sanctimony. There are those who say there should be no rejoicing in the death of any man. Well, put yourselves in the shoes of those who have lived under the brutal dictatorships of the modern era - Mao, Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Ceausescu, Saddam - and ask by what moral standard you judge the oppressed and persecuted? As you read your newspapers over coffee and lounge in the comfort of your cosy armchairs, reflect on the undeniable fact that some people are just evil. And when the sum total of the suffering they inflict reaches beyond endurance, those who have suffered will feel wholly justified in taking up the sword. Of course, they might themselves then die by the sword, but that is their choice. When the state ceases to bear the sword and justice is no longer seen to be done, judgement will fall somehow from the anarchic baseness of human nature.

We are told time and again that ‘the British Government does not support the use of the death penalty'. But when it comes to tyrannical Muslims, HM Government seems to care a little less. Every public opinion survey suggests that a significant majority of the electorate does favour capital punishment, particularly for certain types of murder. And especially if they're in a foreign land. David Cameron hailed Gaddafi's death as a step towards a 'strong and democratic future' for the people of Libya. Speaking in Downing Street, he said he was proud of the role Britain had played in Nato airstrikes to protect Libyan civilians after the uprising against Gaddafi's rule began in February. And the Prime Minister is on the record as saying:
[I]f someone murdered one of my children then emotionally, obviously I would want to kill them. How could you not? But there have been too many cases of things going wrong, of the wrong people being executed, of evidence coming to light after the execution, and sometimes there is just too much of an element of doubt. And I just don't honestly think that in a civilised society like ours that you can have the death penalty any more.
His opening sentence is interesting, for it is concerned with that very heated passion which caused Jesus to tell Simon Peter to put away his sword. It is not for David Cameron to kill anyone: it is for a court of law to weigh the evidence dispassionately, determine guilt or innocence, and dispense justice. But what happens when the courts are corrupt and passions abound?

To God, our three-score-years-and-ten are but a blink of the eye: He deals with eternity. Yes, life is sacred, but it is not inviolable, for that is idolatry. The man who murders that which is made in the image of God has violated that which is sanctified, and there is a just penalty for that violation. Yes, of course things go wrong in the administration of justice, but that is not an argument for ceasing to administer justly: it is an argument for improving and constantly reforming our evidence-gathering processes in order that justice may be better administered. And God is the ultimate judge: vengeance and vindication are His.

Today, Muammar Gaddafi stands before his Maker. He will have discovered by now that Allah isn't quite what he believed him to be, and that divine justice is inescapable. Those who waved their guns and rejoiced with cries of 'Allahu Akbar' ushered their former leader into the presence not of Allah the most merciful, but before the Throne of Judgement of the One True God. There will be no lakes of wine; no endless stream of virgins; no pat on the back from his inspirational prophet; no utterance from Allah of ‘Well done, thou good and faithful servant” (in Arabic, of course). No, the wages of sin is death. And because Gaddafi has committed one or two sins of some considerable magnitude, was quite unrepentant, and did not accept Christ as his Lord and Saviour, His Grace suspects that things might be a little warm for Muammar today. His lake of wine will be a lake of fire: his tongue will burn and his thirst will never be quenched. The only virgins he’ll meet will be the worm variety, for the pit of Hell is a place of decomposition and destruction; of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Muammar Gaddafi has gone to the place prepared for the devil and his angels, where the beast and the false prophet will be, to be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And to those who do not agree with His Grace’s rather literalist understanding of the afterlife, he does not care: he feels better for having conveyed a sense of what it must be to fall into the hands of the living God, without the hope of the salvation of Christ. There is no obituary to write for Colonel Muammar Gaddafi other than 'good riddance’. He has reaped simply what he sowed. Justice has been done. The world is all the better for his passing.


Blogger appendix said...

And if he could take the rest of the God Squad with him, the world would be a better place.

21 October 2011 at 10:05  
Blogger Gnostic said...

So the old tyrant's dead. So what happens next? Does anyone, apart from Cameron and every other idiot politician, actually believe the vacuum will be filled by an uncorrupt democratic government? You know, like Iraq and Afghanistan was?

21 October 2011 at 10:20  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

YG, well said.
Perhaps if all muslims were to convert to Christianity, there might be a little more humanity in the world.

21 October 2011 at 10:35  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

"His lake of wine will be a lake of fire: his tongue will burn and his thirst will never be quenched. The only virgins he’ll meet will be the worm variety, for the pit of Hell is a place of decomposition and destruction; of weeping and gnashing of teeth. Muammar Gaddafi has gone to the place prepared for the devil and his angels, where the beast and the false prophet will be, to be tormented day and night for ever and ever".

Hmmm ... Not a big fan then?

21 October 2011 at 11:00  
Blogger Owl said...

YG, while I can understand your point of view completely, I have this nagging little voice that says that the mad Gaddafi and the evil Bin Ladin were silenced rather than executed.

Both were seemingly captured and then executed (by soldiers?).

Executing prisoners normally would generate a court case.

Are we to beleive that the soldiers who captured Gad and Bin and gave them the bullet, did it off their own bat or were they ordered to do so?

If they were obeying orders (as soldiers tend to do), then who gave the orders and why?

Something just doesn't sound right and this queasy feeling remains.

That Simon and Garfunkel song is buzzing in my head again!

21 October 2011 at 11:06  
Blogger Arden Forester said...

I don't think I can begin to agree with you on this one. Gaddafi may have been disreputable human being according to the values of the vast majority of other human beings, but to suggest he has gone to Hell is not yours to call - if you profess to be a Christian. The Dominical message to us is that "vengeance is mine saith the Lord. I will repay." It is not our business to be passing red cards to God and giving advice on the occupancy or otherwise of "the many mansions".

Hell may have some surprising guests as much as Heaven itself.

21 October 2011 at 11:13  
Blogger Preacher said...

So yet another evil despot has gone, summarily 'executed' by?.
Now we await a free & democratic society. With freedom of religion & brotherley love, or at least the right to hold ones own beliefs without fear of meeting the same fate as the late Mr Gaddafi.
Just like the 23 Coptic Christians enjoyed after the 'liberation' of that realm after the toppling of another tyrant.
Gaddafi is dead, long live ??? the Muslim brotherhood or another good, just & fair leader.
Remember the coup that put Gaddafi in power & the scenes of jubilation then.
Remember the Americans support of the Afghan 'freedom fighters' when the USSR held sway in that country.
How many of our own have been victims of the weapons that were supplied to fight a common enemy of Western Democracy?.
It' all about Oil & greed. The people who fought to oust Gaddafi are not the real power behind the thrown, just pawns in the game. Time will tell. Until then. Watch & Pray.

21 October 2011 at 11:21  
Blogger Thomas Keningley said...

@Arden Forester: Taking such an agnostic position on the issue of the final judgement is not neutral or reasonable, rather it is a rejection of the Biblical criteria that God Himself lays out in his revelation. Do not think you are taking a neutral position, but rather are denying that God has sufficiently communicated with us such that we can know basic truths about heaven, hell and salvation, in direct contrast to Biblical revelation and authority. It is not our position to do the judging, but we are certainly to proclaim God's justice, which is an utterly vague and specious thing to do if we are not to expound on its content for fear of presumption.

21 October 2011 at 11:36  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

The summary execution of this tyrant and the jubilant and the triumphant dragging of his corpse about the place is surely unacceptable by any standards of decency and morality?

What sort of start is this to a country embarking on democracy and the rule of law?

21 October 2011 at 11:40  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Ernst says to dodo and all

'What sort of start is this to a country embarking on democracy and the rule of law?' Indeed!

It appears that a summary execution of enemies is ALWAYS acceptable if accomplished by those nice 'arab spring' chaps.

We shall see what democracy means to libyans pretty soon.

Ernst is currently offline due to those nice Virgin chaps upgrading but damaging internet service. Ernst has used his daughters to look at blog but should be back online, monday, they say? Ernst is lost without his internet but should make Mrs B happy seeing Ernst mopping around the crater!Devil..Work...Idle fingers ?

Will have a response to previous thread for Albert, Dodo and Shacklefree as comment lost due to pc crashing as Ernst was posting it.

Nice response Len but those blighters never listen, do they *chuckle*.

Speak to all on Monday.

Have a nice weekend chaps


21 October 2011 at 11:58  
Blogger English Pensioner said...

The Human Rights activists are having a Hissey Fit about his killing, but who else cares? He was responsible for the killing of many, many thousands and I hope he burns in hell.
There is now no focal point for his supporters or reason for them to mount terrorist attacks to secure his release, which seems a very big plus.
I suspect if he had been brought to trial, (certainly if it were under British Law) he would have been found insane and committed to Broadmoor or the equivalent, which would have helped no-one. Far better for all of us that he's dead.

21 October 2011 at 12:25  
Blogger English Pensioner said...

@ The Way of the Dodo

If you accept the premise that most Muslim countries are a few hundred years behind us in their moral/religious thinking, surely the dragging of his body through the streets is no worse than our beheading criminals and sticking their heads on spikes for all to see?

21 October 2011 at 12:33  
Blogger Derek T Northcote said...

"If you accept the premise that most Muslim countries are a few hundred years behind us" and add to it that most Christians are a good few centuries behind........

21 October 2011 at 12:40  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

In all probability, the personality is gone and that is that. But if not then who knows if it is Allah or YHWH or Mithras or whatever preserving his essence for some sort of nasty eternal judgement thingy? The religious of many flavours seem to have certainty that their particular beliefs are true. One thing *is* actually certain: lots of them must be wrong in their certainty.

21 October 2011 at 13:04  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

English Pensioner said ...

" ...I hope he burns in hell.

Come now, you should not wish that on anyone.

In comparison to the barbarism of Christianities inglorious past - torture, hanging, drawing and quartering, beheading,and all to public cries of joy - maybe this was a relatively humane killing. Besides, just or unjust, brutal or civilised, these were executions ordered by the legitimate authorities of the time, not acts of individuals or the mob.

However, that is all besides the point. Gaddafi was a prisoner and if simply dispatched to his Maker by the mob, he was murdered. The civil war in Libya was fought in the name of freedom under the law and democracy. As I said earlier, not an auspicious beginning.

I see the transitional government are claiming Gaddafi was caught in cross fire between opposing forces. That sounds a reasonable explanaton to me as I sit drinking my coffee watching small pink animals flying past my window.

I should add that had he been tried and sentenced to execution by the proper authorities in Libya, whilst I might not agree on principle with this, I would accept it was a morally legitimate outcome - unless, of course, he was judged to be legally insane.

21 October 2011 at 13:10  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

If God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, then neither should we. It is a fearful and terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. And we are all of us the wicked. Only grace stands between man and the fate implied in the above picture, and that grace is not of ourselves. God stooped to redeem a people for Himself, but He didn't do it because He found anything particularly noble or agreeable or good in man. As it is written "God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8"

That man is a fool who says to himself "I am better than Gadhaffi." He isn't. His guilt before God is infinitely greater than Gadhaffi's guilt before man. Tremble because of what it means to be delivered into the hands of His judgment. Give thanks for the redemption you have been given in God's love and mercy. But do not rejoice. The fate of one who must endure an unending existence in the presence of God's wrath is nothing to celebrate.


21 October 2011 at 13:23  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

no endless stream of virgins

Virgins are off for all the faithful. The compilers of the Qur’an mistranslated a Syriac expression so verse 52:20, ‘They shall recline on couches ranged in rows. To dark-eyed houris We shall wed them’, should read ‘We will make you comfortable under white, crystal clear grapes’.

As for the new improved Libya, when Cameron and Sarkozy visited Benghazi in September, they were photographed in front of a building where an African mercenary had recently been suspended upside down and beheaded.

21 October 2011 at 14:33  
Blogger Neuroskeptic said...

Yes, after all, didn't Jesus say "Blessed are the vengeful"?

And didn't he advise that "if a man hits you on the cheek, you should shoot him in the head with his own gold-plated piece?"

I'm an atheist, I can't quite remember.

21 October 2011 at 14:33  
Blogger Oswin said...

A 'pragmatic' if clumsy end, but what can one expect? Having witnessed the disgraceful scenes at the lawful execution of Saddam Hussein, I reckon Gaddafi got the better deal. The cruelty, and indignity of both events, reflect not just upon natures of both men, but also, I suspect, upon the cultural nature of the peoples they once ruled.

21 October 2011 at 14:41  
Blogger asdfsdfadf said...

Well, I live in the United States, where the President has declared war in Libya illegally---outside the provisions set forth in the Constitution--and then set the dogs on someone under no one's authority but his own. (In addition, Gaddaffi's opposition is largely composed of Islamic radicals, and my tax dollars are contributing to their atrocities.)

He's also had an evil man assassinated under the same premise, even though that man was an American citizen and entitled to certain legal rights--nauseating as the idea may be.

In addition, he's shaken hands with Egypt's Mubarak and smiled to his face, yet had him hounded out of Egypt at the peril of his life. What happens if Mubarak ends up crumpled and bloody in the back of a truck? How proud a role for the President of the United States

I am a conservative; it is important to me that America prosecutes its foreign policy according to the rule of law. The means whereby justice is effected are as critical as the ends. This whole thing has been, and is being, badly played--in perfidy and bad faith--and western society will be much the worse for our having descended to this level.

And spare me your opprobrium; I'm Eastern Orthodox. I am aware that some people are just evil and deserve their just reward. But when the mechanisms of civil law break down, it should give us all pause.

21 October 2011 at 15:25  
Blogger Tintu said...

He was a great Pan Africanist with beautiful Ideas,maybe he did not just take the right path to realize his ideas,who knows what really happened?We just see the picture painted by the media and those hunting Africans riches.If these guys love Africa,the should give their help where it is really needed.Stop the modern slavery and metal manipulation.Innocent kids and people are dying in Somalia,There are African rulers are worst than Gaddafi he at east developed his country.Take a good example of my country,I wonder what good our pesidenths done since his rule in 1982.oohhh i remember now,he changed the constitution to sit again after his mandate is over.Naeto don't see this coz we cont have oil.Wake up Africa,one love from Cameroon

21 October 2011 at 15:25  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

There is no "Allah" or any other big sky fairy.
Gaddafi is DEAD - game over.

Now, move along, nothing to see here, now.

21 October 2011 at 15:44  
Blogger Preacher said...

I watched our ex P.M Blair on the news yesterday, laughing & joking with Gaddafi like old pals down the local, I thought "Yep, thats a good example of a politician".
Sometimes the hypocrisy I see is sickening, "The unspeakable in hot pursuit of the uneatable." to quote Oscar Wilde. Although in this instance the fox was chasing the inedible - Oil!.
I wonder who is REALLY pulling the strings behind the 'Arab Spring?'
I'll warrant it's not an Arabic enigma. No Arabian Knights in this story I'll bet.

21 October 2011 at 15:53  
Blogger Kip Hop... It don't stop said...

Good post your grace. Reminds me of Jesus words:

I tell you, my dear friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you fear him!

Ye Muslims and people like G. Tingey take note.


Kip' Chelashaw

21 October 2011 at 16:00  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Apart from the debate about legal processes, It is good that your grace re-iterated the Christian dogma that there is a place of punishment called Hell. Prior to our death it is a good idea to repent of our sins so that when we come to judgment before Jesus, we can avoid being sent there.

21 October 2011 at 16:16  
Blogger KCB said...


21 October 2011 at 17:53  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace

Fine upstanding words from you indeed. The best we can hope for with our death is that it is quick, if not painless. Gaddafi was not let down in that respect.

You see, it takes a certain type of man to do what must be done. What should be done, and to ignore the cries of the faint hearts who do not have the stomach, and will say ‘It’s nothing to do with me – you sort it’. Such is one of the qualities of leadership. What point is there to lock away a man for decades, often with no chance of release, in a confined space. We are here to live our lives - if we seriously mess up, then we’ve had our single chance.

What is execution, other than the bringing forward of our death. Our bodies come from dust and will return to dust, but the soul is immortal. For the truly bad among us, the ultimate judgement cannot come too soon, if only to spare the next potential victims.

As you point out, there are issues some would rather not think about while supping their coffee in a comfortable chair in their comfortable home. Understandable, but don’t let them stand in the way of natural justice, which unlike compromise solutions, always clears the air.

21 October 2011 at 18:06  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Preacher said ...

"I wonder who is REALLY pulling the strings behind the 'Arab Spring?'"

No len and Atlass it is not the Jesuits, in case you were wondering.

Carl (@14:23) Amen to that, Sir.


Surely it's an issue of justice and process? To summarily execute a man without proper authority cannot be defended. Even the Libyan's are claiming he was shot 'by chance' in crossfire. Execution, fine if ordered by the properly constituted authorities following a trial.

Vigilantism, is not a good start for a new nation.

21 October 2011 at 18:42  
Blogger Jack D. said...

This is unworthy of you Your Grace.The allies held the Nazi War Trials at Nuremberg to show the world that we were better than them, that justice is done with a clear mind and a considered view. Nowadays we seem to rejoice in extra-judicial killing.Gaddafi (who I hold no love for..) was a prisoner, at that point unable to harm anyone, and his killing was murder pure and simple. If he was to be executed, it should have been by duly constituted authority.The whole Libyan affair has been a disgrace, if ever a truthful history were ever written then the NATO actions will be compared unfavourably with Guernica, and I speak as an ex-serviceman. This year will be the first in my adult life that I will not wear a poppy, I am so ashamed. What have we become?

21 October 2011 at 19:01  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

To all those weepies who are upset at the manner of Gaddafi’s passing – do try and get over it. He’s gone and there won’t be any counter coup in his name...

Where were you lot when his victims were individually laid in their graves ??

You people have gone soft – don’t know you’re born, what !

21 October 2011 at 19:19  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Jack D


NATO's action cannot be compared with thw mass bombing of a non-military target filled with a civilian population.

21 October 2011 at 19:23  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


Just to clarify my position, There's no weeping for Gaddafi at all - just dismay at the unlawful nature of his death. As you said earlier, it was quick and painless. I'm thinking more about the future of Libya and what this signals.

21 October 2011 at 19:28  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


An interesting part of human nature is that when someone ‘famous’ albeit evil, dies in a bloody awful manner, people are concerned ! Why for God’s sake ??

Reminds the Inspector of when that piece of rubbish Jade Goody finally bowed out. What is it with you people and ‘celebrity’ or ‘infamy’ ??? {INSPECTOR ROLLS EYES}

21 October 2011 at 19:41  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


Now your old fashioned judgemental streak is coming out.

Who's 'concerned' about his death? It's the manner of it that cannot be defended. I agree Gadaffi invited his violent end by the manner of his life. However, I the new Libya is less for it's new beginning.

Capital punishment when sanctioned by a legitimate authority and following a proper trial, is morally defensible.

Mr Cranmer said ...

"When the state ceases to bear the sword and justice is no longer seen to be done, judgement will fall somehow from the anarchic baseness of human nature."

There is an emerging state in Libya. The 'sword and justice' should have been left to it - not the mob.

Jade Goody is a whole other ball game - maybe for a later time. I'm not sure I'd call her a "piece of rubbish" though!

21 October 2011 at 21:43  
Blogger English Viking said...

Why is it wrong for Ghadaffi to kill people but it is OK for Cameroid to do it?

Nasty, spineless little oik.

The sooner his filthy corpse is dragged through the streets, the better.

21 October 2011 at 21:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Gaddafi was an exceptional event. He had to go, and quickly.

At midnight, the Inspector is having a two minute sob for his soul. He’ll be holding his hands out. The Inspector wants you to do the same and we’ll pretend our hands are touching. There you go, even the most evangelical amongst us, weasel and Mr Bloe couldn’t surpass the sincerity of that...

21 October 2011 at 22:01  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


You are beyond the pale!

Let's not make light of the power of prayer or the infinite mercy of God and His unknowable justice.

I agree your suggestion matches the sincerity of you know who but Ernsty?

21 October 2011 at 22:25  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

English Viking

That's not nice. Mr Cameron is our elected Prime Minister and deserves all the respect that goes with that honourable position.

21 October 2011 at 22:33  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...


Still occupying the moral high ground, so you are. Well that’s it for one tired Inspector. Until tomorrow...

21 October 2011 at 22:36  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


Standards, Sir. Especially when the likes of weasel are looking to discredit the faith.

Sleep well.

21 October 2011 at 23:09  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Tintu, interesting comment.

And to some others, the "Arab spring" does seem really just more of the same. Or worse.

21 October 2011 at 23:22  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ English Viking (21:45)—Might is right. The West currently has the might so the West is right. Payback time will come when we’re the underlings.

21 October 2011 at 23:43  
Blogger Acidri Michael said...

What if...just what if Gaddafi repented of his sins 5 minutes before he died. Would the scenario before God be different?

22 October 2011 at 00:03  
Blogger The Good Seed said...

Like some others here, I have no quarrel about the justness of gadaffi's death. However, capital punishment does not include brutal assasination. Gadaffi should have been killed after a legal process, not as a result of an opportunistic thug. The End does not justify the means.

However, we all need to revisit our approach to getting rid of evil people and there is no reason why capital punishment should not be in place.

22 October 2011 at 00:05  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Acidri Michael

A slit second would be sufficient.

22 October 2011 at 00:50  
Blogger The Judicious Hooker said...

O YG, you can be rather fire and brimstone at times. That Service of Commination is, however, one of my favourites and no Ash Wednesday passes without a private or semi-private celebration. That it is banned in some parts of the Anglican Communion is a sign of the times.

Dr Pusey of blessed memory once wrote:

"It has been said with wondrous beauty, and have no profession of faith to make about them [those without], except that God is infinitely merciful to every soul; that no one ever has been, or ever can be lost by surprise or trapped in his ignorance; and as to those who may be lost, I confidently believe that our Heavenly Father threw His arms round each created spirit, and looked it full in the face with bright eyes of love, in the darkness of its mortal life, and that of its own deliberate will it would not have Him.'"

That is the true spirit of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

22 October 2011 at 01:46  
Blogger OldSouth said...

I remember the first occasion when a truly evil person in my little world, someone who dedicated his life to creating chaos and heartbreak, dropped dead of a heart attack, shortly before Christmas.

I heard the news at church, and while others put on long faces, I found myself dancing down the hallway. The guy was dead, by golly! And then, it occurred to me that if Christ spoke truly, then this guy was already in a much warmer location, and he would never ever ever harm anyone again. And I would never encounter him, for all of eternity. He was gone!

Until that moment, I had not understood that the Almighty's justice was a means to comfort the downtrodden, to restore order, to give hope.

Libya may or may not become a civilized place in the next twenty years or so, but the death of Ghadaffi is a very good thing in its own right.

Let's do enjoy the good moments that come our way.

22 October 2011 at 03:05  
Blogger Oswin said...

Johnny R @ 23:43 tells it the way it is, full-stop. Yon buggers are either at one's feet, or else at one's throat...given a choice, I prefer the former.

The Imperialist wars of the 19th, and early 20th, centuries served to obscure the pernicious designs of Islam. We might have forgotten them, but they have not forgotten us!

22 October 2011 at 03:17  
Blogger len said...

I think it somewhat distasteful seeing people gloating over another`s death(however deserved)
Gaddafi was undoubtedly evil and spread evil wherever he went, much as so many dictators in the past.

The possibility of change(through repentance and the Gospel)are over for Gadaffi as he goes to meet His Maker with blood on his hands and his crimes unpaid for.

This for all of Eternity is 'it' for Gadaffi, and it is a sobering thought for many of humanity will be following him,not because they are as bad a Gaddafi but because of their refusal to accept Christ.

22 October 2011 at 07:46  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "At midnight, the Inspector is having a two minute sob for his soul. He’ll be holding his hands out. The Inspector wants you to do the same and we’ll pretend our hands are touching."

Hold them out at chest height, we don't want to hear of any mishaps or misunderstandings when you both grab.

22 October 2011 at 07:59  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Len: "This for all of Eternity is 'it' for Gadaffi, and it is a sobering thought for many of humanity will be following him,not because they are as bad a Gaddafi but because of their refusal to accept Christ."

Indeed. Though it's not so much a refusal to accept Christ as a refusal to buy into that particular idea amongst so many. If Christ chooses to appear to me personally or to do a Paul-on-the-way-to-Damascas thing then I'd no doubt accept his existence and all that that implies. Similarly with Allah if it fancies doing a Moses-and-a-non-burning-burning-bush thing. That seems fair enough to me and it meets the free will test thing perfectly. Hopefully I still won't be gloating or feeling smug and righteous over the death of an evil man afterwards but hey.

22 October 2011 at 08:09  
Blogger len said...

Following on from my comments(07: 46) it has occurred to me that some people might think that God would send people to Hell for rejecting Christ as' an act of revenge'.
Nothing could be further than the truth.Hell was created for Satan and his demons, humans were never meant to go there.
Evil was judged at the Cross of Calvary.The whole World was judged
at Calvary and condemned because the whole World was under the authority of the Evil one.

Christ is the WAY out of this Judgement which lays across the whole World.Christ is the only WAY.So God sends no-one to Hell for He has presented at great cost to Himself)an alternative ...Christ.

22 October 2011 at 08:10  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


Is the Almighty's justice really there as a means to assure us that those hurting us get their comeuppance? I don't think so. To dance in a church aisle at the news of another's untimely death and to be gleeful at the prospect of him burning in Hell is hardly chrisitian spirited.

Just remember during all our trials and troubles in this life the example set by Christ on Calvary:

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

22 October 2011 at 09:24  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

A sad day for daffy,an even sadder one for us,we have been used via our media manipulated opinions,to heartily endorse the obscenities perpetrated by the nwo,who coveted and stole libian oil,destroyed a self sufficient people,and have installed a rabid islamic fundamentalist junta in place of stable governance,whos currency was not printed for free and sold bearing irredeemable interest,like ours,and whos people were dragged from the tenth century to the twenty first in a matter of fifty years,the shame is not daffys,it is ours.

22 October 2011 at 09:38  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Each day Gaddaffi remained alive, people like you and me were being killed in a civil war. Now he’s dead, it’s virtually over, just the settling of old scores to be done.

Had he remained alive, we’d have the newly dead today, tomorrow, day after etc. And you bleeding hearts have the nerve to criticise the victorious side !!

As the Americans would say – “Get real”

22 October 2011 at 11:42  
Blogger English Viking said...


Successive PMs have so debased and degraded the office of PM, urinating on their responsibilities from a great height in favour of self-aggrandisement and self-enrichment that I no longer feel ANY loyalty or respect for the holder nor the office.

Cameron is an inveterate liar and a traitor who promised a referendum on EU membership and then reneged, blaming forces outside of his control. He is now presented with a golden opportunity to keep good his word (a man is nothing without his word) but insists on whipping his MPs into compliance with his pro EU, old boys club will, and hang the hopes and desires of the electorate. He is thoroughly vile, the embodiment of all that is wrong with our sham-democracy.

He should be tried for treason and, if convicted, shot, along with at least 7 of his predecessors.

22 October 2011 at 12:13  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

English Viking

Your criticisms of the abuses of our democracy and its present sorry state are sound. However, as voters we have to take our full share of responsibility too. Cynical, I know, but I'm not sure people actually want the burden that comes with democracy. My dad used to say we get the leaders we deserve. If only we could trust dictators to be benigh!


Do you live on the same planet as the rest of us!

God allows good to come from evil. This does not justify evil. Are you seriously suggesting the actions of the murderous Gaddafi in Libya and globally can be defended? By the same standard Mao and Stalin can be praised for modernising their countries! Clearly you've never visited the memorial at Lockerbie. Let's see what his real legacy is before praising the man.

As for this NWO, who exactly are you referring to? The UN and NATO hardly acted in unison over the support of the rebellion.


Not all the criticisms of the manner of Gaddafi's death are coming from "bleeding hearts". Given it's root meaning, I'm not sure it's a label I would want to disown. The term originated as a Christ reference, originally the bleeding heart under a cross, representing the sufferings of Jesus crucified.

Every sane person must welcome the demise of the "mad dog" of Libya. His actions were truely evil and indefensible.

The crucial issue is his apparent murder whilst under arrest and thereafter the sordid abuse of his corpse.

22 October 2011 at 12:45  
Blogger len said...

For once I agree with you.

22 October 2011 at 13:05  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Oswin (03:17)—In retrospect, inviting our future overlords to live amongst us wasn’t the shrewdest move.

22 October 2011 at 13:35  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


It's not the first time we've agreed. It's only when you go all evangelical and anti-Catholic that we fall out.

Be careful now because Inspector is wielding a spade and looking for you!

22 October 2011 at 13:41  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, The Inspector is really a scary character,you think he has homicidal tendencies?.
I am beginning to think he has lost the plot, watch yourself!.

22 October 2011 at 14:49  
Blogger David Lindsay said...

No serious person, by definition, thinks that Libya had anything to do with Lockerbie. The Americans were arming the IRA at exactly the same time as Gaddafi was, and, moreover, they were throwing almost incomparably more political weight behind that organisation, to incomparably more eventual effect. The present Coalition was as bad as Blair for sucking up to Gadaffi.

And the synthesis of Islamism and what passes for Socialism in lands unblessed by the synthesis of Radical Liberalism, Tory populism, Christian Socialism, Catholic Social Teaching and Distributism, and other such entirely non-Marxist influences, is in fact the position of numerous individual and collective seceders to David Cameron's Conservative Party, one of whom is now a rising star of the 2010 intake to the House of Commons.

So, what now? Torture, already very much in operation. Sharia Law, likewise. The expulsion of the Italian and Maltese Catholics. And the genocide, both of the admittedly very scarce Copts, and of the extremely numerous black Africans.

As Peter Hitchens ( wrote last month:

"Somehow we’re being sold the idea that the Blair-Brown regime sucked up to Colonel Gaddafi, but our current Government kept their distance. This is false. Archives reveal that the ‘Minister for Africa’, Henry Bellingham slurped up to the Colonel (referring to him as ‘Brother Leader’) at an EU-Africa Summit in Tripoli on November 30, 2010. A few weeks before, another Minister, Alastair Burt, told the Libyan British Business Council that Libya had ‘turned a corner’ which ‘has paved the way for us to begin working together again’."

Doesn't it make you proud?

22 October 2011 at 14:50  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


No the Inspector is a fine, upstanding chap. No attempts at divide and rule from you now!

22 October 2011 at 15:08  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, Ha, Ha,!.
Now stop talking to me the Inspector will get VERY cross if he finds out!.

22 October 2011 at 15:09  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

DODO,as far as i can tell i am somewhere,wether it is your planet makes absolutely no difference,how can god send evil since he has no knowledge of us,for if he did he would not be god.I do not seek to excuse daffy or anyone else,who knows what the scum that purports to represent us does in secret,but our focus should be on our souls not anothers,and jubilation and dancing in the streets over the murder of someone,we can safely leave to barbarian islam.

22 October 2011 at 15:57  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Englishmman said...

"how can god send evil since he has no knowledge of us,for if he did he would not be god."

Sorry, but the logic of this has escaped me.

God knows each and everyone of us. We owe are continuing existance to Him. What I said was that God allows good to come from evil. He permits human evil, He does not send it.

22 October 2011 at 16:25  
Blogger Hamza Isa said...

Allah is the one true God, it is just the name the Muslims call Him. In fact, Arab Jews and Arab Christians all call God by the name Allah.

Arabic Bibles are filled with the name "Allah"

It is true that Gaddafi was guilty of many awful and despicable crimes which will not go unpunished, i am sure by the Almighty.

What he isn't guilty of is false belief in the Creator, Allah and in the finality of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

So, although it may be true that people like Gaddafi will spend time in horrors of the hellfire, at one point in time, because of his correct faith in God, Islam and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), he will be in Paradise after being cleansed of his evil deeds.

That is the worth and reward of the correct belief and understanding of God and His message.

I am sure you won't like reading this "fact" but the correct faith is so very important, even if one performs evil deeds - that is forgiveness and a just reward.

There is a famous saying which describes the station, in the eyes of God of that person with the correct belief in Him has, despite his behaviour;

"Muhammad al Hashishi is better than Francis ul-Assisi"

I don’t like what he did, he committed the most heinous of crimes but not the worse crime of disbelief in the Owner of every atom in the Universe.

22 October 2011 at 16:33  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Hamza Isa

Thanks for putting the record straight. So kind.

Are you saying that irrespective of how one lives one life, a belief in the Prophet and Allah leads unconditionally to heaven?

I'm not certain that is sound Islamic theology.

22 October 2011 at 16:40  
Blogger Hamza Isa said...

You may not be sure, but i am not sure you know everything about Islam...

The position is this: If one believes in Allah (God) and all the Prophets including the final Prophet, Prophet Muhammad and believe in the revealed scriptures as they were revelaed, the angels, pre destination - one will be in Paradise.

Now, that doesn't mean one escapes Hell if one sins to a very large degree, it doesn't, but after being cleansed in the fire, for a period only known by God Himself, one will enter Heaven.

This reward is not given to the one who ascribes partners with God or faces God with a faith other than Islam (after the message of Prophet Muhammad was revealed)

Also, it is worth pointing out that even if one murders 999 people in cold blood, if one repents to God with deep sincerity, one will find God most forgiving.

There is always hope and we should never dispare of Gods Mercy and Forgiveness, even if your sins reach the sky.

22 October 2011 at 16:58  
Blogger len said...

Good Grief,
Muslims believe in Purgatory wherever did they get that idea from?.

22 October 2011 at 17:01  
Blogger Hamza Isa said...

One more thing, if i may

God says

"O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its."

How wonderful and how reassuring, truly, God is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful

22 October 2011 at 17:02  
Blogger Hamza Isa said...


There is a notion of purgatory in Islam, namely, hellfire for any Muslim that enters it - which we pray Allah spare us - since the firm belief is that no Muslim shall abide in Hellfire forever but only so they be cleansed of their faults.

It's not quite the same, but similar..

22 October 2011 at 17:08  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Hamza Isa

How does Allah feel about suicide and car bombings, and the persecution of Christians, that is causing people great pain. Your wise words on these three will be considered...

22 October 2011 at 17:08  
Blogger Hamza Isa said...

@ Office of Inspector General

Divine guidance and Prophetic teachings are nothing but a manifestation of mercy-and any understanding of religion lacking in mercy is lacking in true understanding.

Our problem is that we fail to act on the implications of the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace) having been, “sent only as a mercy to all creation.” [Qur'an, 21.107]

The Prophet (pbuh) himself emphasized that, “I was only sent as a gift of Mercy.”

Therefore, persecution of Christians is wrong, in fact, persecution as an act is wrong. Suicide bombings are wrong too.

There are codes of behaviour, even in war, that are prescribed in the Qur'an and in the sayings of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

It is easy to misunderstand a faith when it is understood through the mass media and/or by the actions of some individuals or groups.

I was guily of this myself, until i went to the source.

22 October 2011 at 17:27  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Thank you for your reply Hamza Isa, the Inspector has learnt a little more of Islam today.

One can’t help feeling that the eventual arrival of the soul in Heaven, after thorough cleansing, encourages those souls while on earth to participate in these cruel acts knowing that ‘it will all be right in the end’. Hardly conducive to what we all hope for - of a peace on earth.

22 October 2011 at 17:36  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


The passages you cite imply repentance before death.

Does Islam really hold that no Muslim is ever condemned to everlasting punishment provided s/he believes in Allah, the Prophet and the Quran?

22 October 2011 at 18:08  
Blogger English Viking said...


(Not Abu, is it?) Surely if one was to believe in this so-called god of yours, one would moderate one´s behaviour to the point where beheading prisoners of war, mutilating the genitals of children, suicide bombing the kaffir and hoping and praying for the extermination of the Jews is considered rather poor form?

Here´s a word you will not be accustomed to hearing, if you are a Western muslim; no.

See? I said it: no.

No, I will not cow-tow to your fantasies about a pædophile.

No, I will not listen to your faulty, back of a fag-packet theology.

No, I will not submit to sharia, or any other middle-age system of vengeance and spite.

No, I don´t care two hoots if you are offended by my ´cultural insensitivity`.

If you are a Westerner, and you don´t like what I say, you could always go and live in a muslim country. If you are already in one, I suggest you stay there.

22 October 2011 at 18:10  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Hamza Isa (17:27)—persecution of Christians is wrong

Muslims would argue that Qur’an 9:29…

❛Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of truth [Islam], even if they are of the people of the Scripture [Jews and Christians] until they pay the jizyah [tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.❜

…does not amount to persecution. On the other hand, Jews and Christians who are required to pay a special tax for the privilege of not being killed and who must live as members of the dhimma or subjugated class—with all its restrictions—probably would feel persecuted.

22 October 2011 at 18:15  
Blogger Hamza Isa said...

@ The Way of the Dodo

As part of a longer hadith God will say

"Go and take out (all those) in whose hearts there is faith even to the lightest, lightest mustard seed" - meaning take them out of the hellfire.

So yes, no Muslim will be in he hellfire for eternity

@ English Viking

Thank you for your comment

The Lord of the Universe says:

"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. truth stands out clearly from error…" (Qur'an 2:256)]

Nobody is or will be forcing you to believe

22 October 2011 at 18:23  
Blogger Hamza Isa said...

@ Johnny Rottenborough

Like with all scripture, context is everything. I don’t want to get into a scripture throwing contest - i do have plenty to throw back at you (assuming you're a Christian and believe in the Bible) - but i wont.

I will though comment on your point regarding the Jiziyah (tax for non-Muslims)

The Muslims have to pay the same tax - but its called Zakat.

As non-Muslim living in Islamic State would pay the tax and receive many things such as;

Social security, pensions, protection, health care, the permission to build churches etc., a free choice to join the army or not if the situation arose and many more things including no tax on your earnings or purchases

i would much prefer to pay the jiziya than the unfair tax system in the UK and elsewhere..

22 October 2011 at 18:37  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Hamza Isa (18:37)—The rosy picture you paint of Jews and Christians living happily in Muslim countries fails to match the reality we see for ourselves and contradicts the historical evidence of the annihilation of Jewish and Christian communities in Arabia. By the way, zakat is not the same tax as jizyah; the latter is paid only by non-Muslims.

22 October 2011 at 19:08  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Johnny R and Viking

Let's not leap on Hamza before giving him a chance to speak. I for one welcome his comments and his sharing of his beliefs. He's not insulting us - why insult him?

22 October 2011 at 19:26  
Blogger English Viking said...


I have cast no insults.

If he finds the truth insulting, perhaps he should either sulk alone else modify his attitude toward those who do not share his fantasies.

Only one thing worse than a muslim: a Christian that wants to ´feel his pain´.

22 October 2011 at 19:31  
Blogger English Viking said...


No compulsion? Like the poor fellow in Iran, facing execution for ´apostasy´?

You either thick, a liar, else both.

22 October 2011 at 19:34  
Blogger English Viking said...



There is no point arguing with him.

22 October 2011 at 19:35  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Must say he’s brave to face us. Seems to be giving us ‘pure’ Islam which as we all knows differs slightly from the ‘applied’ version...

22 October 2011 at 19:36  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ TWOTD (19:26)—(i) For someone whose first name denotes an absence of sound, Hamza has been speaking rather a lot; (ii) the beliefs he has so far shared show a worrying tendency to be economical with the truth; (iii) I wasn’t aware that I had insulted him.

22 October 2011 at 19:38  
Blogger Hamza Isa said...

@ Johnny Rottenborough

Actually the latter is paid by Muslims..

"the annihilation of Jewish and Christian communities in Arabia"

The truth is that the Jews found solace in the Muslims lands whilst fleeing Christian persecution. They were welcomed and specifically in modern day Iran where the largest Jewish community exists in Arabia and have done so, in peace for centuries.

I don’t recall Christians being "annihilated" in Muslim lands either, but i do draw your attention to what "Christians" have done in Chechnya, Iraq, Afghanistan recently (and of course Hiroshima and Nagasaki) and what the Christians did during their barbaric crusades and inquisitions in Europe and especially Spain where millions of innocent Muslims were slaughtered and driven out - and let us not forget what Jews and Christians have done in Palestine since 1948.

Remember, when you point your finger, three are facing back at you.

The Christians have a history of persecution, oppression and aggression, it is a list that it very impressive but I don’t believe for one second that is what Christianity should be and what it teaches.

..And by the way, Zakat is a tax that Muslims have to pay and Jiziya is a tax that non-Muslims have to pay - if they can afford to do so. So they are the same, even if you think they are not, as both go towards the running of state and to the poor of society

22 October 2011 at 19:42  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Hamza Isa (19:42)—If I accept your description of Muslims as the best friends of Jews, I have to conclude that Muslims the world over ignore Allah’s opinion that Jews are evil-doers and the vilest of all creatures. Which is the authoritative voice? Yours or Allah’s?

22 October 2011 at 20:04  
Blogger English Viking said...


Dogs and monkeys rings a bell.

The doubt has now passed.

You ARE a liar.

PS Want to fight me?

Your sort are rock-hard when it's 5-1.

Even at those odds, your chances aren't great.

C'mon, show us your real face!

22 October 2011 at 20:38  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Viking. A useful intelligence operation scuppered ! Poor show that man...

23 October 2011 at 00:45  
Blogger Ariadne said...

Johnny, all well said.

One female murderer and one female intending murderer, released from prison in Israel, are currently exhorting even children to follow in their footsteps.

Releases of such terrorists in the past have led to almost 200 additional murders of Israelis.

The Muslim Arab intent is to finish the job Hitler started, as far as Jews are concerned. There are some honorable exceptions, Sufis, for example. But not nearly a sufficient number to counteract the evil. Or to compete with the massive input of oil wealth to pro-Muslim, antisemitic propaganda and activities.

Even the brutality Gaddafi was subjected to cannot compare with the sight of "Palestinians" parading through the streets showing off the internal organs of their murdered Jewish victims.

23 October 2011 at 00:49  
Blogger The Judicious Hooker said...

@Hamza Isa on 22 Oct 19:42 wrote: I don’t recall Christians being "annihilated" in Muslim lands.

Your Grace and communicants

This statement is a case of historic amnesia of the worst kind.

Some instances of annihilation of Christians in Muslim lands:

1804 Massacre of the Serbian Knights on 4 February 1804 (triggering the Serbian uprising against dhimmitude)

1860 Massacre of 5000 Damascus Christians following the abolition of Ottoman dhimmi laws (Christians were not acting submissively and therefore forfeited their right to protection)

1890-1918 Massacre of Christian Armenians (anti-dhimmi reprisals which culminated in whole-scale genocide of 1.5 million Armenians).

Yes, Christians have blood on their hands and when they commit violence or murder, they transgress God's commandments and sin and will be judged accordingly by God.

When Muslims wage jihad or attack dhimmi for breaking the dhimmi pact, then they are following the teaching of Islam and their actions are given religious sanction.

That is the great difference between Christianity and Islam.

If you think the suffering of Christians under Islamic rule is historic, then you are certainly ignorant of the situation of Christians in the Middle East where their population has dwindled in the last century due to the policy of systematic marginalisation and persecution of non-Muslims. The situation of the Coptic Christians in Egypt is paralelled throughout Muslim lands.

Islam appropriated (in its own idiosyncratic way) the theological and spiritual heritages of Judaism and Christianity. And its own validity as the newer "final revelation" is called into question by the continued existence of the older Jewish and Christian faiths.

Its tendency to give religious sanction to violence, revenge and barbarity is a clear indication of how far it stands from the truth from God who is revealed in Jesus Christ as love.

23 October 2011 at 06:40  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Your Grace,

Because of our festivals since Wednesday evening, followed by the Sabbath, I only read the reports and (unfortunately) saw the video of a shocked and bloodied human pleading for mercy just a few hours ago. The world is, indeed, "all better for [Gadhafi's] passing," and as Ariadne reminds us, it's not mercy to leave terrorists alive longer than we have to. So, may the "Mad Dog's" name be blotted out and may the Almighty judge him as He, in His wisdom, may see fit.

I obstinately continue to oppose capital punishment by the state, ideologically and viscerally, but I'll concede that quick, extra-judicial "battlefield justice" may be requied at times, especially to avoid further loss of life. Still, I can't help thinking .... couldn't those buggers have done the justice bit without the screaming, the taunting and the beating? A shirt, some bandages, a drink of water, perhaps even a quiet moment for a brief prayer before a clean shot to the head, if not a firing squad? Hardly cricket, as you folks might say.

23 October 2011 at 06:48  
Blogger ENGLISHMAN said...

DODO,God is one pure nature,nothing extraneous,if the thought of "man" intrudes,then that nature is disturbed and it is no longer pure.

23 October 2011 at 08:20  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


Yes, but God has chosen to reveal Himself to man. And His means has been His Holy Spirit communicating through man inspiring us and His Son becoming man revealing Him in His fulness.

God's nature cannot be disturbed but our understanding of Him can be distorted through improper intertretations of His revelation.

23 October 2011 at 10:28  
Blogger Hamza Isa said...

@ The Way of the Dodo

When you say God became man, what exactly do you mean?

The Divine is Unique and exists outside of time and space - outside of His creation and is not ever subjected to it.

In your underdstanding of Jesus, he was God made man - it therefore follows that he went to the toilet to relieve himself of the filth inside him. Is this an act worthy of God Himself, the owner of every atom in the universe?

I put it to you, that God is The Most High, The Most Honourable, The Most Powerful and you are insulting His Majesty by suggesting He walked the earth as a man, with all mans needs.

The Hindus say the same thing don't they?

23 October 2011 at 14:38  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Way to go, Hamza Isa. First, wow everyone with your fictions about Christian-Muslim relations, then, begin your missionizing with your potty-obsessions and finger-wagging, as if you're preaching to a row of snotty-faced illiterates in a slum madrassa.

Tell us: How big of a jump is it to go from accusing billions of Christians, not to mention Hindus and others, of insulting G-d, to then doing something about it? Considering history, with the millions slaughtered and enslaved in the name of your pagan cult, it appears that it won't take much.

23 October 2011 at 15:26  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


I'll not waste your time or mine by discussing Christianity at length on here.

If you are interested in discovering more about the Holy Trinity - (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) there are numerous web sites. I would point you in the direction of Roman Catholic ones - but the choice is yours.

Google - 'mere christianity' by C S Lewis - and you can start there.

God Bless.

23 October 2011 at 16:03  
Blogger Oswin said...

Avi @ 15:26: : thanks for that; my trigger finger was beginning to twitch a little, as was my pharyngeal reflex; you saved me from a dirty job!

23 October 2011 at 18:20  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

You have to admit though, if one has a strongly mono-theistic view and one does not even approve of using religious images or pictures then the Trinity in Christianity is going to seem very wrong even when one treats each as facets of the same thing. There's probably faint echoes of Hinduism in there to the untrained eye.

23 October 2011 at 18:59  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...


Think nothing of it Oswin; for taquia as Viking aptly named it, it's pretty laughable stuff, although the implied threat is highly irritating in this day and age. But if you wish, you can stand me a pint.


Welcome back; always a joy to witness your discourses. We all appreciate your giving us time to duck under tables and overturned couches before swinging that axe; your etiquette has improved.

23 October 2011 at 19:07  
Blogger len said...


The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is most certainly not the 'Allah' of the Muslims.

The Arabs had tribal gods in which they worshipped. Every tribe had their own God. "The Quraysh tribe into which Muhammad was born was particularly devoted to ALLAH..." Before Muhammad was EVER BORN, his tribe worshipped Allah, and he was the CHIEF GOD OF MECCA: "Its been pointed out that Mecca was in the control of the Quraysh tribe into which Muhammad was born" (ibid., pp.39-40). Since they were in control of Mecca, it was only right that their God was chief of the Kaaba in Mecca.

Historians like Vaqqidi have said Allah was actually the chief of the 360 gods being worshipped in Arabia at the time Mohammed rose to prominence. Ibn Al-Kalbi gave 27 names of pre-Islamic deities...Interestingly, not many Muslims want to accept that Allah was already being worshipped at the Ka'ba in Mecca by Arab pagans before Mohammed came
"The Allah" of the Muslims is almost certainly derived from "al-ilah" and is not Yahweh the God of the Jews.

24 October 2011 at 08:14  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJ0, I have "strong monotheistic views" as well. Christian friends tell me that they do too. Many Hindus and Buddhists claim monotheism as their foundation or ultimate goal, and so do some polytheists, as a curious matter of fact. We have to take such declaration of faith at their face value at the very least because we have little else to go by other than a self-declaration by the believer in question.

Hamza Isa's seemingly personal thesis with its scatological underpinnings is, in fact, an appropriation of a well-worn Islamist fecis that's been excreted anew by the Al Azhar "scholars" to re-classify Christians as idol-worshippers. The aim of this pseudo-theological sham is primarily political; it aims to legitimize terrorism against anyone and everyone and to decriminalize the massive wave of robberies, murders and rapes of Christians...the new kuffars...wherever Islam dominates or interfaces with others. Hindus and Buddhists are of course fair game, as are Jews, who may be monotheists, but are, according to the Koran and Hadithas, deadly enemies of their prophet and of all Islam.

This Islamist doctrine which attempts to re-cast Christians as foolish idolators and inexcusable blashemers is a blatant repudiation of the old tacit agreement between Jews, Christians and Muslims to recognize each other as monotheists, even if they disagree about the details and definitions. So, apart from telling us that he is a not-too-clever jihad-head whose mom bungled his potty-training, Hamza is throwing down the gauntlet before the entire Christian community. In such a case, Len's reminder of Islam's strong pagan connection is an apropriate response, as is our willingness to call-out such sham "debaters" like Hamza and burry them under steaming mounds of ridicule.

24 October 2011 at 15:27  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

You appear to be segueing from his point of view (which is a normal Muslim one, I'd say) through islamism to violent islamism and then pinning it all back on him. How did that happen? Or have I missed something relevant he has actually said?

Of course, the idolatry thing is also a charge made by protestants against Catholics. In fact, I think it's actually been done here over the position of Christ's mother in the Catholic view of things.

Not that I actually support the Muslim point of view of course or think that the concept of god (of whatever flavour), Mohammed, Jesus, or Moses must not to be 'insulted'. Mohammed can kiss my chuff as far as I am concerned. It's all bonkers religious nonsense to me.

24 October 2011 at 18:42  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJ0, I couldn't care less about what our potty-obsessed theologian personally feels or intends. Of more interest, and what you may be missing, is that the new or revived puritanical doctrine of the Islamists has wormed itself into the mainstream deep enough to be crudely parrotted by the likes of lightweights, like our Hamza Isa. It effectively says that the belief in the divinity of Jesus is now to be interpreted as a blasphemous attack against G-d. I argue that far from it being a curious theologic squabble, it represents a tectonic shift not only in Islamic theology, but in the way Muslim wars against Christians and Animists are waged in Africa, the Middle East and Asia.

24 October 2011 at 19:50  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


Come now. Hamza didn't actually proclaim any Islamist opinion.

Muslims have always rejected Christianity's conception of a Triune God. Jesus has is seen by Islam as a prophet, not one of the 'persons' of the Trinity. And lets face it, orthodox Judaism considers the the Christian belief that Jesus was the Messiah and also God, as blasphemous.

The poor chap has run off now without having been given any sort of chance to share his political or ideological views.

24 October 2011 at 21:51  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...


The "poor chap" repeated a common assertion found in Wahhabi Saudi-financed textbooks exported worldwide to Muslim communities. He did so rudely, which irritated me, as a sizable portion of my extended family consists of rather pleasant Christians I happen to be fond of. So, I let him have it with both barrels. Mea culpa.

Muslims, as anyone else, are free to reject Trinitarianism. I do as well, as you may well imagine. However, the long-established custom among Christians, Jews and Muslims is to accept one another as monotheists in the Abrahamic tradition. Had Hamza disputed intelligently and with courtesy to his host here, I would have skimmed through his words, as theology tends to put me to sleep, but the vehemence and crudity pissed me off. So, I let him have it with both barrels. Mea culpa.

Orthodox Judaism is not a monolithic centralized entity, so opinions differ, but the majority, the mainstream, regards Christians and Muslims as monotheists. The approach is what you might call "relativistic"; a Christian remains a monotheist, with all the advantages that entails in the Afterworld, whereas a Jew converting to another faith or "partitioning" G-d in any way is committing a serious act of apostacy and idolatry worth exsition from the people of Israel and spiritual death. That's pretty heavy stuff, btw. Judaism accepts converts under fairly strict conditions and does not actively proselytize to non-Jews, so it can't very well condemn 99.98% percent of humankind to oblivion. I made the percentage number up, btw, but it's close enough. Also, the lenient and respectful position over the centuries, one which I approve of whole-heartedly, has been to view Hindus, Buddhists and Animists as adherents of religions which seek G-d in their own ways, not as pagans or idol worshippers. Hamza was taking a pot-shot at Hindus...a fine and likable people, at least as far as I can judge from my dealings with them in the trucking world. Islam has been as nasty, if not nastier to Hindus as to Jews, so, I let him have it with both barrels. Mea culpa.

No one chased Hamza away. His courage left him when he encountered the first signs of hostility and realized that he's way in over his head. Don't worry, he'll be back if he can muster up a posse of brothers. No mea culpa from me for this one.

24 October 2011 at 23:08  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Btw, Dodo. A while back, when I made my first appearance here, I was goofing around, kind of passing through, until you gave me hard time over something or other. Not only did that not chase me off, I enjoyed the scrap and installed myself as a fixture here. Tua culpa.

24 October 2011 at 23:17  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


I'm glad my jousting with you led to your decision to stay. I enjoy reading your posts and, if you don't mind my saying so, your occassional off topic comments. Of course, you can expect me to continue probing and testing your ideas. You'll know by now I don't always follow the 'Marquise of Queensbury' rules. That's not the Way of the Dodo!

Back to Hamza. I've re-read his shot at Christianity and have to say I didn't find any of it objectionable at all. He merely posed the question about how the Infinite God could take on the form of a creature. That said, I'm not on the receiving end of the obscene critisms and violence of Jews by fundamentalist Islamists in Israel so perhaps I'm not as sentitive to any sub-text as you.

Okay, he avoided questions about militant Islamism and was on the back-foot about this. Who wouldn't be? He was mercilessly attacked by some when maybe we could have engaged him more effectively. And, truth be told, Hindu's do believe God takes human form and visits the earth. Was this observation an insult? I don't think so.

Surely any faith should be willing to listen to anothers? If we do all believe in one God, and I'm not sure Budhists actually believe in a 'God', then lets hear what each of us has to say about this Being.

25 October 2011 at 01:45  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo: The man knew what he was doing, merely following one of the current 'party lines' ... he was not after some ecumenical-type sharing of opinion.

If you, or others, really want to understand Islam, then study the life, and intent, of their so-called prophet. By that, I do not mean contenting yourself with the likes of Rageh Omar's ''The Life of Mohammad'' et al.

It amazes me, that you of all people Dodo, appear to fall for the guff that emanates from such an evil source. Or do you not consider anything beyond what you suppose to be the heresies of the C-of-E?

Demagnetize your stiletto and come aboard, old chap, where your skills might be better employed.

25 October 2011 at 16:02  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo again: should you be interested, may I suggest that you seek out anything pertaining to the work of the Rev/Pastor/Brother (I've heard him refered to by each)Jay Smith. He has spent many years debating with muslims, often in Hyde Park, but frequently too, on TV and radio worldwide.

He is a charming and highly skilled debater, of immense knowledge. You won't be disappointed.

25 October 2011 at 16:44  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


Let's be clear - I consider Islam to be an evil and perverted corruption of Judaism and Christianity. The 'Prophet' appears to have been mad or possessed, or both. I see no good in the Quran and view Islam's 'religious' system as a spiritual and emotional bondage.

I could go on.

When approached by a Muslim I do like to listen to their understanding of their faith and engage in a discussion. The same goes for other religions too. What other way is there to diminish its influence?

I believe Christianity to be one, true faith and one that must be defended. That's why I pick up on modernity and liberalism generally and especially if it arises within Catholicism. I also get heated about the fundamentalist 'born from above' theologies which exclude the majority from salvation and often lack other doctrines.

Families do row amongst themselves in ways that next door neighbours cannot!

Do I believe the Church of England to be heretical? Sometimes. The 39 Articles can be interpreted very widely and, with the exception of one or two, may be consistent with Roman Catholicism. Then, that was the point of them - to bring unity between warring factions. The governance of the Anglican Church is an issue for me and how doctrine and canon law revised. I am a Roman Catholicl and accept the primacy of the Pope and the Magisterium!

25 October 2011 at 18:37  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Sorry, Dodo, come to think of it I didn't realize you were looking for a playmate to have some "ecumenical-type sharing of opinion," as Oswin put it. I can be dense at times and you need to be very direct. Like, "paws off, this bee-yatch is mine." Or something of that sort.

Anyway, Viking started it, so there. He took the first swing, splattered blood all over the place and disappeared again. There is a pattern there, if you've noticed. I suspect he has a Valkyrie on the side who likes it very much when he gets mad and yanks him up to Valhalla every time he gets worked up over someone here. Remember, the simplest explanation is the most probable.

25 October 2011 at 23:32  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


You are right Viking did put the boot in early on. No finese, yousee. He's a fighter. One needs to know one's enemy before launching an attack.

It's no excuse for you though! You;re a civilised and humorous man. You launched a pretty savage attack. In my opinion, more vicious than Viking's name calling and invitation to fight.

Maybe Hamza was intent on spreading his message. I don't know. But if we don't try to talk to Muslims and try to change free them from their chains, what else is there? Kill them all? I do hope not!

26 October 2011 at 01:09  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Goodness, Dodo, you really are miffed! Aren't you taking this a bit too hard, though? Again, I had no idea you had your own designs. That you wanted to keep Hamza as a pet to study Islam with and him from his chains. Figuratively, I trust. As an aside, not that it relates to anything here, I once saw a poster that said, "Everything I ever wanted to know about Islam, I learned on 9/11." But I digress.

And it wasn't a "savage" or "vicious" attack" I made. What an unkind assessment, Dodo. I see it more as a measured, surgical strike, a fairly proportionate and tactically symetrical counter-punch to what I interpreted as obnoxious preaching and gross taunts. Anyway, it was probably English Viking's devilishly clever and hilarious online challenge that froze and terrified our cocky Saracen and sent him packing back to the Barbary coast.

And speaking of Viking, hoo-boy, are you ever in the deep doo-doo with him for implying he's not perfectly civilized or...humourous. Dodo in the doo-doo. I would petition and intercede for you but, you know how it is, I've kids, wife, cats....

26 October 2011 at 04:18  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


If you don't tell Viking then I wont. We wouldn't want any unnecessary trouble. His army against mine, so to speak. That's how wars start!

Do remember there is a difference between Islam and between Muslims. Islam is an evil - Muslims may or may not be. Just as within Judaism and Christianity, people are influenced by their faith systems but capable of independent thought.

26 October 2011 at 11:32  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

If you're lucky, Dodo, Viking's still at the Valhalla being ministered by the Valkyries.

And yes, I do know the difference between Muslims and Islam, and will even concede to the diplomatic term "Islamism." My cognive functions are more or less ok. At the same time, given the record of its founder and adherents and the unreformed, hostile content of Islamic scriptures pertaining specifically to me, I can have nothing but utmost contempt for the creed and will not debate or discuss it with its followers politely or in an "academic" spirit. Ditto for National Socialism or "anti-Zionism."

26 October 2011 at 12:39  
Blogger Oswin said...


Tee hee, you frequently brighten my day; priceless stuff!

Yep, I'm not sure what's going on with old Dodo either. I invited him aboard, and he throws a shimmy! I reckon he's having a few problems with his stiletto; probably sat on the damned thing, or else spiked his vitals whilst doing some shadow-lurking perhaps?

As to there being a ''difference between muslims and Islam'' ... well, isn't that the same as saying that there's a difference between Christ and Christians?

Of course, we Christians would freely admit to that, inasmuch as we are often quite miserable failures at being 'good' Christians; but that's not quite the same thing at all. Doubtless a similar corollary exists within the Jewish faith too.

The fact is, that which one might call 'militant Islam' is the true Islam; they do indeed follow the teachings of their prophet.

Further, so-called 'moderate' muslims, be they ever so nice and pleasant, are clearly not singing from the original sheet-music. Ergo, they are either NOT muslims at all, or are an heretic sect with no true basis for their beliefs.

Either way, they are caught between a rock and a hard place, and their prognosis is not good.

Had Moses, or Christ, behaved as Mohammad, we would not now be arguing the toss; we'd probably still be cavorting in oak-groves, or whittling tourist editions of the Golden Calf.

As for English Viking, I hope and pray that he has not fallen foul of Dodo's attempts to minister to his wounded psyche! ;o)

26 October 2011 at 17:00  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Oswin and Avi

Interesting comments.

I drew a distinction between Islam and Muslims. Even accepting that Islam and its works properly applied are evil, it doesn't necessarily follow that all Muslims are.

I can accept that those who are faithful,doctrinaire adherents are likely to behave in objectively evil ways towards others. That's the difference between Islam and Judaism and Christianity. It has to be said this was not always the case with Christianity. These faiths and their ethic, properly understood, promote love and proper conduct towards one's neighbour.

In Israel today Muslims, Jews and Christians live side by side as citizens. True or not? Is there a lesson there?

Oswin there's a time and a place for the dagger - metaphorical and actual.

26 October 2011 at 17:35  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...


26 October 2011 at 19:42  
Blogger Mustafa said...

it is shame that most Muslims that want to oppose overbearing American influences in Arab lands end up shot, but it is the way of world...

27 October 2011 at 11:36  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Oswin and Dodo

I lost a rather longish piece yesterday. No matter, it was too convoluted anyway.

So, in a nutshell, I think that as long as Islam remains unreformed and financially and theologically rooted in the Middle East, there is no chance of its coexistence with either Christians, Jews or secularists. If that remains to be the case, non-Muslim nations and societies which neighbour Islamic ones, or which contain Muslim populations above 20% percent or so, have a rather binary choice: Submit to Islam demands or defeat it.

But I'm an optimist. I believe that the looming collision between population growth in Muslim countries and the unavoidable reduction in the flow of petro-dollars will result in the return to the status quo; the Muslim Middle East's familiar slumber. While--thanks to the foreign policies of the Numskull-in-Chief in the White House, Islamism seems to be the spectre behind the "Arab Spring" flop, it can only implode once the money runs out. A pleasant collateral effect of this will be abandonment of jihad-based terrorism and missionary, colonialist Islamism, both of which can function only with huge amounts of money. Left to their own devices, Muslims in the West will either do what they've always done when stranded...fullly assimilate...or, in our tolerant climes may secularize and reform their creed, just as mainstream Jews and Christians have done. The latter process has quietly begun in the US and Canada, where Muslim communities here and there are refusing financial and "spiritual" assistance from the Saudi or Iranian-backed Islamists and are, quietly and with no small amount of fear, devising their own liberal doctrines and becoming good neighbours and productive citizens. The former process, assimilation, has been underway, and while no data exists, anecdotal evidence suggests that assimilation, especially among third and fourth generation Muslims, is rather significant and appears to be exponentially growing. Europe, though, may be another matter altoghether.

27 October 2011 at 17:07  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...


Cry me a river. With a Republican administration looming on the horizon, "you ain't seen nothin' yet," as the song goes.

27 October 2011 at 17:10  
Blogger Oswin said...

Mustapha: it's an odd, but sad fact, that 'victims' occasionally manufacture their own oppressors; but even were that no so, America is much a victim, historically, as are the muslims you refer to.

Forced by circumstance to stand against Nazism and then Communism, America was thus obliged to secure oil supplies, and markets, for itself, and for the free world too. A gross oversimplification, I know, but fundamentally sound one.

However, the turmoil within the muslim world is not wholly down to American/Western influences; your own failure to conduct yourselves in a rational, and civilised manner, has in no way helped. It is a clash between the modern, and the medieval; some might even say, the pre-medieval!

Similarly, muslim intransigence regarding Israel, has ensured little forward momentum; indeed, it has almost guaranteed its reversal.

We may both claim, and counter claim as to the historical basis for our present situation, but it solves very little. What is required is the sound, stable and sensible governance of muslim countries, then able to comport themselves as do others.

As yet, you have some way to go. Behaving like a rabid bunch of primitives is not the way to proceed.

Similarly again, we in the West fail to appreciate ''overbearing'' muslim ''influences in Western lands'' ... as you seem keen enough to export yourselves, and your overweening, troublesome religion, to our lands.

27 October 2011 at 17:29  
Blogger Oswin said...

Avi: indeed, second and third generation British (?) muslims seem not to favour their parents/grandparents attitude of 'thanks be to Allah, we're out of that shit-hole!' ... they have now managed to make themselves, much to the probable disgust of their parents/grandparents, inassimilable. Whilst latter day migrants arrived without any such desire to assimilate whatsoever.

27 October 2011 at 17:43  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...


Nice post to Mustafa and eventhough it is entirely wasted on him, it is a pleasant read.

On the topic of modernization, acculturation and assimilation of Muslims in the West, I'm guessing that the process in North America is different primarily because of the continent's ability to economically absorb greater number of people, while Europe "invited" far more culturally different people than it could properly incorporate. Unfortunately, the only measures, such as a severe cut-backs on immigration and acceptance of refugee claims and an energetic campaign to wean off the Muslim communities from Islamist money and propaganda are not only legally impossible, but apparently unspeakable.

27 October 2011 at 18:00  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


Part of our the difference is that in Europe we have been talking of "integration" whilst American's talk of "assimilation".

27 October 2011 at 22:09  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...


In Canada multiculturalism, the "cultural mosaic," is the official government policy. "Acculturation" was the aim, but that's out the window now. It worked when we all went through a proper screening process, waited a bit longer went by the book. I came here with my parents, and while we waited for admission, took English courses, which allowed my dad to start work within a month, and me to go to a regular school. I studied my arse off before our meeting with a representative at the Canadian consulate and when there, rattled off the names of all the provinces, the structure of the government and basic history. The chap admitted us probably because he was getting a headache and wanted me out of his office. The screening and admission process is quite a bit different now. You can even opt out of making allegiance to the Crown if you "disapprove" for some reason, although I think our Conservative government is changing that.

27 October 2011 at 23:42  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo: America now talks just the same as we do; and, as we do, has done very little about it - as yet!

It will change there, and it will change here; it has to.

28 October 2011 at 00:54  

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