Saturday, October 29, 2011

Sir Jimmy Savile is dead.

It is reported that Sir Jimmy Savile has died at the grand old age of 84. He was, in his own way, something of a national institution - an entertainment eccentric; infectious, extravagant, and immensely generous with both time and money.

His Grace has no intention of writing an obituary for the man - many will do so who are far more eloquent and better informed. No, this is simply to point out that over the course of his professional life, Sir Jimmy ran more than 200 marathons and raised in excess of £40million for charity. While many civil servants, bankers, industrialists and politicians expect to receive their knighthoods and their OBEs and CBEs for doing nothing but their jobs, Sir Jimmy Savile thoroughly merited his honour whilst having no expectation of it. He fixed it for thousands of people to experience something in life which would otherwise have been denied them. It is more blessed to give than to receive. Rest in Peace, Sir Jimmy.


Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Bless him.

Let's all hope and pray Saint Peter "Fixes it" for Jim.

29 October 2011 at 15:59  
Blogger Gnostic said...

RIP Mr. Fix It. You made your life count in so many ways.

29 October 2011 at 16:00  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

When asked in 1980 what he would liked 'Fixed' for himself, Sir Jimmy replied:

"A telephone in Heaven."

How's about that, then?

29 October 2011 at 16:41  
Blogger Harry Hook said...

Finally re-united with "The Duchess".

29 October 2011 at 17:32  
Blogger Sean said...

Good Yorkshire Stock Your grace, it really counts I am sure Guy Fawkes will have a word to the wise in our ear.

29 October 2011 at 17:33  
Blogger Jimmy said...

Sometimes fewer words manage to say more than a thousand more could. A poignant and touching post.

29 October 2011 at 17:38  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

Someone whose passing is to be mourned. And that doesn't happen too often these days.

29 October 2011 at 18:01  
Blogger martin sewell said...

The most fitting tribute would be if some of our modern
" celebrities" heard his story and resolved to follow his
example of living modestly but lavishing time and riches on others.

29 October 2011 at 18:23  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Now then, now then - a good Roman Catholic and a papal knight no less. Jolly good show[s] old chap...

29 October 2011 at 18:24  
Blogger non mouse said...

Thank you,Your Grace, for the opportunity to express appreciation for the life of this Yorkshireman. I owe to him many happy memories of Radio Luxemburg!

29 October 2011 at 18:53  
Blogger English Viking said...

So, poor Jimmy has gone the way of all flesh - very sad.

I thought him a great entertainer, although his theology was sadly lacking. I remember an interview with him where he asserted that he would punch St Peter in the mouth if he was not permitted entry into heaven after all he had done for charity.

Isaiah 64 v 6 tells us his folly (aside from the idea that Peter has any say-so in the matter) - Our best righteousness is as filthy rags.

Those foul rags, when literally translated, are soiled by menstruation.

Much better to trust in Christ, as I fear he may now be finding out.

29 October 2011 at 19:12  
Blogger Roy said...

@ English Viking

We all say stupid things at times but fortunately for those of us not in the public eye our stupidity is not usually recorded, except by One who sees and hears everything.

No doubt Rahab the harlot and many other people who are praised in the Bible had defective or at least deficient theology, but I hope that Jimmy's actions, such as his charity work, were an outward manifestation of an inner faith, or, in other more eloquent and truthful words than mine - the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.

29 October 2011 at 20:13  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

I say Viking, rather harsh on the fellow weren’t you. Hope it wasn’t because he was an RC. We Christians need to pull together these days, don’t you know....

29 October 2011 at 21:10  
Blogger Owl said...

I think it's just Viki's way of saying that Jimmy was a good lad really.

There was probably a tear in his eye as he thought back to the days of watching Jimmy on Top of the Pops with his long hair black on one side and white on the other.

Our Jimmy was a bit of a nutter but a fantastic bloke.

The world is a little sadder and a little greyer without Jimmy. RIP.

29 October 2011 at 22:08  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Owl. The Inspector recalls being entertained by Jimmy Savile impersonators. Part of our youth died today. Will take a few days for the Inspector to get his head around the loss...

29 October 2011 at 22:31  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

English Viking

Don't you believe God has a sense of humour? I'm sure He has.

Lighten up now - Christ shows Himself and His presence in different ways through different people.

29 October 2011 at 23:27  
Blogger len said...

R I P Sir Jimmy.

Dodo why haven`t you told me about 'Charismatic Catholics ? very naughty keeping that a secret!.

Just stumbled on some info about 'Charismatic Catholics on the web.(Wikipedia again,Bless them)

'The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is a movement within the Catholic Church. Worship is characterized by vibrant Masses, as well as prayer meetings featuring prophecy, healing and "praying in tongues." This movement is based on the belief that certain charismata (a Greek word for gifts), bestowed by the Holy Spirit, such as the abilities to pray in tongues and to heal (which Christians generally believe existed in the early Church as described in the Bible) should still be practiced today.

A Catholic church in Ann Arbor, Michigan describes charismatic prayer:
"A charismatic style of prayer is common at Christ the King. People are free to raise their hands in prayer and during songs, many pray their own prayers audibly, some pray in tongues, etc.... They pray with expressive or charismatic prayer at monthly parish prayer meetings, at the beginning of parish meetings, and most especially during certain moments in the Holy Mass. These are some of the external markers of a charismatic parish. Internal markers include a radical surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in all parts of life, a strong adherence to the Gospel and the teachings of the Catholic Church, and the pursuit of strong friendships centered on Christ."

(I might be reviewing my opinion on Catholics!(shock gasp horror.)
This may mean I have to declare a truce ....Damn just when I was getting going.........seriously Dodo this is great news for the Catholic Church, hope it spreads.

30 October 2011 at 09:38  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo Someone has impersonated Len ! And they’ve mentioned ‘Catholic’ several times without the usual accompaniment of scorn in the same sentence. Most peculiar...

30 October 2011 at 10:40  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


Why on earth wouldn't the Roman Catholic Church believe in the power of the Holy Spirit? And why do you suppose this might challenges the basic tenents of the Faith?

Discernment is critical and I would encourage you to look into it more. It is a controversial movement. Many protestant pentecostals and evangelicals say it is inauthentic. Amongst traditional Catholics there is scepticism because of some of the excesses and claims that have been made by participants.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger summed it up perfectly many years ago when commenting on the movement:

"What is the relation between personal experience and the common faith of the Church? Both factors are important: a dogmatic faith unsupported by personal experience remains empty; mere personal experience unrelated to the faith of the Church remains blind."

As I understand it, the Roman Catholic position is that provided the alleged workings of the Holy Spirit are guided by the full content of the faith and the Church's teaching authority, and that such "gifts" do not attempt to displace the means of grace in the life of the Christian, such as the Mass and the sacraments, then it is acceptable and valid.

This doesn't mean that one has to be a charismatic, that charismatics are better Catholics, or that every alleged charism is authentic. The Church must respect the workings of God, discerning the authentic from the inauthentic.

"An authentic charism would not pull one away from the Catholic Church. If a Catholic leaves, seeking an emotional boost he no longer finds in the Church, he is seeking the gifts of the Giver and not the Giver of the gifts.

Participation in the life of the Church should lead any Catholic (Charismatic, traditional, or ordinary) into a deeper relationship with the Eucharist, the Blessed Mother and the Pope. If it does not, something is spiritually wrong with that particular individual or with the guidance he is receiving within his group. Since a charism does not give the person any special infallibility or sanctity, given the extraordinary character of such gifts it is especially necessary for individuals possessing them to guard the purity of their faith, lest pride, self-seeking or emotionalism lead them astray, and they others."

There are a variety of Catholic websites discussing this movement and the nuances of it.

Choose wisely.

30 October 2011 at 11:23  
Blogger len said...

Dodo I will look into this, thanks for your help.I still do not agree with with a lot of Catholicism but the Charismatic Catholics certainly seem to be seeking a way forward, perhaps a more balanced way?.No change occurs without a certain amount of conflict and disagreement but if we stick to scripture then a path forward will become clear.

Pax vobiscum.

30 October 2011 at 11:39  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


Be sure to read the critics of the movement as well as those promoting it. It is a controversial development from the early 1970's.

One belief we share is that Satan can present as an angel of light. If you can try to stay within those who at least claim to present Roman Catholic teachings on the matter. You'll find plenty to keep you occupied, believe me.

Et cum spiritu tuo.

30 October 2011 at 12:28  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


From small acorns ....

One thing is clear, len is genuinely seeking God. Let's wish him well on his journey and pray he finds the Way.

30 October 2011 at 12:33  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Must say he seems to becoming more amenable. Can even manage to refer to the RCC without spitting on the ground. However, I do place emphasis on the ‘seems to ‘....

30 October 2011 at 13:35  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, I have found God (or rather He found me)

Its the denominational thing that I find very confusing.

The Maze will get even more difficult to negotiate with Blair and his' multi faith 'camp confusing the issue even further.

(WV ' traiters' would you believe it?)

30 October 2011 at 13:53  
Blogger musky said...

Len,you've hijacked this comment thread with a completely unrelated subject; that's not good blog-commenting etiquette. So back to Jim.

(PS Pope JP II was fully supportive of the Catholic Charismatics--- couldn't help myself)

Back to Jim. A wacky, but completely individual, man who did for others.

30 October 2011 at 14:07  
Blogger len said...

Musky Never ask for whom the bell tolls etc.

Good time to think about salvation, hence the comments?

Matter of fact any time is a good time to think about salvation.

30 October 2011 at 14:30  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


You are completely correct it is wrong to change the drift of a blog thread. However, it happens frequently - ask DanJ0.

Yes, Jimmy Savile was quite a character.


Pope JP II, as pastor and commenting personally, not authoritively, may not have known the full extent of some of the dubious practices going on and beliefs expressed in the USA in the early days of this movement.

Vatican II resulted in a lot of experimentation; not all of it doctrinally sound.

30 October 2011 at 15:01  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

30 October 2011 at 15:45  
Blogger Oswin said...

Len@ 09:38 :

For God's sake don't go there!

Else you'll be be writhing with serpents next, or gabbling nonsense in some bloody 'swamp' patois!

Keep it simple old lad; simple is best. I wouldn't even have Dodo go down such a path; stiletto notwithstanding!

30 October 2011 at 17:30  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


If len's search takes him in this direction then so be it.

Personally, I am very uncertain about the Catholic Charismatic movement movement and some of the claims made by its members. Not my cup of tea jumping about to rythmic rock music, waving my hands in the air or listening to and responding to pentecostalesque preachers. I am also extremely wary of the "baptism of the spirit" and lay involvement in what appears to me to be a quasi-sacrament.

I'm an old fashioned chap prefering quieter forms of worship and contemplation and this is not a path I would widh to tread. Besides, my cowl and the stiletto would not be effective in such an arena - much too open air and public.

However, if len wants to take a closer look, why not? It may help him reconsider his views on Catholicism. Hopefully, he will follow my advice and stay within the parameters I've suggested. We wouldn't want him wandering too far from the narrow path.

30 October 2011 at 22:08  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Ps Oswin

In case musky pops by, one ought to say something about dear Jim.

Now then, now then ...

30 October 2011 at 22:12  
Blogger Oswin said...

What's 'Deputy Dawg' got to do with Jimmy Saville?

Really, what can one say of Jimmy Saville: a 'force of nature' who got more into one life-time, than most of us could ever dream of. R.I.P

31 October 2011 at 00:30  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


As it 'appens ... now then, now then, now then ... goodness gracious ... please spell 'is name right!

31 October 2011 at 01:24  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

31 October 2011 at 14:07  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "However, it happens frequently - ask DanJ0."

When I do, I just take a strand of the article and run with that rather than jump onto a completely different topic.

But at least you can ask me simply by using the name DanJ0. If we want to ask you anything then we need to choose from the plethora of fake IDs you use. ;)

31 October 2011 at 16:56  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


Do calm down dear boy; you're so sensitive. I was merely alluding to you having a tendency (excuse the intentional pun) to weave homosexulaity in many threads.

And you know you can always ask me a question, no need to get all indignant on me.

31 October 2011 at 17:22  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "I was merely alluding to you having a tendency (excuse the intentional pun) to weave homosexulaity in many threads."

Almost as much as you like to bang on about Catholicism, or try to bully Len, in every thread even when there's nothing in the article to draw it out. Unless you're actually Len too and you're trolling yourself out of boredom.

31 October 2011 at 18:23  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


But don't you do know I'm you too? Try not to let on or we'll lose credibility.

31 October 2011 at 18:55  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "or we'll lose credibility."

Matey, you had very little even before that. Frankly, I'm amazed you're still here as I think almost everyone else would be too ashamed to have been caught doing that to hang around. It's testament to your lack of character and integrity that you're still happily trolling away regardless.

31 October 2011 at 19:36  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


No one has bullied len. He relishes the interchanges and has invited more.

You've led a very sheltered life ducky, if you think a bit of mockery constitutes bullying. You're not one of these namby-pamby, wrap 'em in cotton wool, softies are you?

31 October 2011 at 19:37  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


You are a sensitive chappie and pompous too! Shame? Goodness me, for having a very occassional bit of fun? Do get real!

Must rush, as I'm due to use my len avatar soon.

31 October 2011 at 19:42  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I suppose if you're determined to stay and bluff it out then you have to at least try to make light of it. Good luck with that.

31 October 2011 at 19:54  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo, you really need a place like this at the moment, I reckon.

31 October 2011 at 20:01  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. Len doesn’t have a friend in the world. Dodo and the Inspector are his friends. And what’s this about you only posting when it's a gay issue ?

31 October 2011 at 21:25  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


I rarely bluff and if I do the likes of you will never know. Do run along now and play with your friends.

"A ring, a ring o' roses,
A pocket full o’posies,
Atishoo atishoo we all fall down."

31 October 2011 at 21:49  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

To change the subject, DanJ0, the use of the word ‘matey’. Very much a Bristol word, don’t you know. And of course it’s the Bristol accent that is beloved throughout the world as the authentic pirate’s voice. “Fifteen men on a dead man’s chest – Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum” “Ship shape and Bristol fashion” “Shiver me timbers, it’s pieces of eight” (...The Inspector could go on...)

31 October 2011 at 21:59  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


"Who remembers having a bath with Matey when they were young?"

I must quickly add, Matey is a bubble bath - 'Sailor Matey' has had 25 friends since his launch in 1958.

I suspect this is what our friend DanJ0 had in mind. The bubble bath comes in characters like Sailors, Pirates, Princesses and in a blue or pink colour.

I'll leave it with you to work out what options he might prefer.

31 October 2011 at 22:56  
Blogger len said...

I accept that anyone who preaches the Word of God will face opposition and persecution.
It came as somewhat of a surprise to me that most of this came from inside the Church.
What Dodo and the Inspector have said is pretty feeble compared to what I have experienced in 'the real World'.
The Word of God seems to act as a magnet towards all who would attack it and as I said this comes mostly from' the religious'.

1 November 2011 at 07:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. The Inspector does remember it was your scorn on others Christianity that led to our falling out, so wipe your tears, blow your nose and ask yourself “It was me, being rude about organised religion adherents, wasn’t it”

1 November 2011 at 07:55  
Blogger len said...

Never underestimate the Power of God to draw people out of corrupt religious systems and convert them.

Abraham is a case in point!.

In the days of mighty King Nimrod, there lived in Mesopotamia a young man named Abraham. Now, Abraham’s father was an idol maker named Azar, who carved the wooden gods worshiped by his people. But Abraham was a believer in the one God, and not in the gods made by hand.
Azar would send Abraham and his other sons to sell his idols in the marketplace. But Abraham would call to the passersby, “Who’ll buy my idols? They won’t help you and they can’t hurt you! Who’ll buy my idols?”
Then Abraham would mock the gods of wood. He would take them to the river, push their faces into the water, and command them, “Drink! Drink!”
At last Abraham said to his father, “How can you worship what doesn’t see or hear or do you any good?”
Azar replied, “Dare you deny the gods of our people? Get out of my sight!”
“May God forgive you,” said Abraham. “No more will I live with you and your idols.” And he left the house of his father.

Now there are parallels with religions today which have their roots in Babylon all it takes is a revelation from the ONE TRUE GOD to open their eyes.I believe this may be happening with groups within the Catholic religion.

1 November 2011 at 07:56  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. The Inspector can imagine there must have been lots of fun during bath time – perhaps mock marriages between Sailors and Pirates...

Len. The Inspector rests his case !

1 November 2011 at 08:00  
Blogger len said...

For those more concerned with 'blog etiquette' that salvation I suggest you take a long hard look at your priorities.

Jimmy Savile is a testimony to doing 'good works'and I take nothing away from him for that but according to God`s word this will not do a thing to save Him.Only Christ can do that!.

1 November 2011 at 08:01  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. Jimmy was an RC. He’s only recently dead having devoted much of his life to ‘good work’ and you proudly announce there is no salvation for him. He has been judged, here on earth by you – your arrogance knows no bounds, does it ??

1 November 2011 at 08:19  
Blogger len said...

Nothing of the sort Inspector you are' putting words in my mouth'.

What I am saying is that only Christ can save him.
Salvation Cannot Be by Works and God's Grace

“NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Titus 3:5). This Bible verse makes it plain and simple that good works will not save anyone. Listen to the message of Ephesians 2:8-9, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.” How many Scriptures does God need to put in front of our face before we get the idea—salvation is not by merit. “Knowing that a man is NOT JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and NOT BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW: for BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW SHALL NO FLESH BE JUSTIFIED” (Galatians 2:16). The road to Hell is paved with good intentions!!! The plain teaching of the Inspired Word of God is that salvation is NOT BY WORKS.

(If you read the scriptures you would know this good works are precisely that 'good' but you cannot buy your way into Heaven with Good works , my point which you seem to have missed entirely(or perhaps not?)

And of course 'baptism' is not infant baptism.

1 November 2011 at 08:45  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


We DO know all this so stop banging on about it! The Catholic Church does NOT teach salvation by works and has never done so, so do stop your lies about this.

As for your muddled and unbiblical thinking on baptism, this is also old ground.

According to YOU Anglicans, Catholics, Lutherans and Eastern Orthodox Christians are barred from salvation and heading for Hell unless they've experienced a direct encounter with the Holy Spirit.

What a grossly distorted version of Christ's message you follow. Your religion is a religion of exclusion.

1 November 2011 at 17:17  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


Jimmy Savile was an "orthodox Catholic" (is there any other?) and, according to your "infallible" interpretation of scripture, he therefore followed a satanic religious cult.

Jimmy attended Mass every Sunday and frequently attended services mid-week. His "religion" resulted in him leading a life of self sacrifice and dedication to others. Some estimate that 90% of his income was donated to charity. He raised over £40m in charitable work and gave his time freely to voluntary work.

And you say he was not saved? You have decided his eternal fate. Indeed, by your standard all "orthodox Catholics" since the time of Christ are in Hell. Amazing! Only you and the born-again brigade are saved. And you dare express the view that organised religion makes puffs people up?

1 November 2011 at 17:57  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, I think your argument is with God ,I don`t write the Scripture.

Perhaps you should try talking to Him?.

1 November 2011 at 18:56  
Blogger len said...

Salvation is IN Christ Jesus.
He IS our salvation.
We are saved by being Spiritually joined to Him.

"But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you" (Rom. 8:11), and this, because the Spirit is the bond of union between us and Christ. Because there is the same Spirit in the Head and in His members, He will therefore work the same effects in Him and in us. If the Head rise, the members will follow after, for they are appointed to be conformed unto Him (Rom. 8:29)—in obedience and suffering now, in happiness and glory hereafter. Christ was raised by the Spirit of holiness (Rom. 1:4), and so shall we be—the earnest of which we have already received when brought from death unto life.'

This union with Christ being born from Above by the Will of God is the only Way into Heaven!.

(This is not an idea of mine but this is God`s only way of salvation! trying to buy your way into Heaven by 'good works ' is pointless and not God`s ordained path to salvation, which is my point)People have the mistaken idea that they will go to Heaven because they are a 'good person' but Jesus Himself said "There is none good but God"

1 November 2011 at 19:12  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. You must consider the prospect that you have misread the spirit of the gospels. You’ve managed to interpret them as far from good news, just the continuation of the old because man is not worthy, save a few of them, including yourself. Your obsession with baptism is quite remarkable. You are managing to insult God himself with your posts. You are actively condemning Christians, his creation, who accept the word of Christ, his son, with your denial of them. You have become a BARRIER between God and his people. Satan no doubt counts YOU as one of his own. Needless to say your pitiful soul will answer for this at YOUR judgement day....

1 November 2011 at 19:14  
Blogger len said...

Inspector, No man deserves salvation that is my entire point!.Salvation is a work of God from start to finish, so that no man can boast that he earned his salvation!.

Good works will not get you in.

Many who stand before God will think they should enter heaven because of their good works. Jesus tells us in His Word:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven… Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" Matthew 7:21-22
How shocked they will be when they hear Jesus respond:

"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:23
How tragic! Millions of Catholics never learn that good works cannot save them until after they die. But after death is too late. At that point they are already doomed to an eternity in the lake of fire.

The Apostle Paul makes another important statement concerning good works:

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Galatians 2:21
In other words, if you could earn heaven through your good works, then Jesus suffered that horrible death on the cross for nothing.

1 November 2011 at 19:38  
Blogger Gavin said...

Len, I'm pleased to hear that you have found out about the charismatic movement (and it's not strictly a Catholic movement by the way, it has encompassed many different denominations).

It's clear from your writings, that so far, you have come to view your own personal revelation of Christ, as something completely separate from anything that happens in an organised church. It was evident in your initial post in this thread, that you were really surprised by this 'charismatic' movement, that it was something you totally did not expect to find within organised Christianity!
(You might also be thinking at the back of your mind, 'what if this is just another Catholic deception, a trick designed to make it LOOK as if the Holy Spirit is at work, while really...?')

Anyway, I wish you all the best as you continue to look into this!

1 November 2011 at 19:46  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. There’s a surprise, firing off selected passages off like that. When the time comes, and your hide is laid in it’s box – you’ll find out whether your selfish take on Christianity is true, along with Adam and Eve and talking snakes, and Lot’s wife being petrified, for God’s sake. The Inspector will take his chance with everyone else – at least he’ll be in the company of billions.

Gavin Len has his ‘own personal Jesus’. Do keep away – upsets him him if you get too close to his, and his alone, Messiah...

1 November 2011 at 19:50  
Blogger Gavin said...

Insp. Gen, the way I look upon it is that Christianity is a lifetime's journey for all of us, and each of us is at a certain stage in his/her growth in Christ, at any particular moment. I am at this stage, Len is at that stage. He knows some things in Christ which I may not yet have learned, and perhaps vice-versa.
And as such, we are called to be supportive of each other, rather than overly critical.

(word verif: subtli! )

1 November 2011 at 19:56  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


But that's the whole point, for len it isn't a journey. You either are or you are not 'saved' through the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit'. A once in a lifetime event that makes you a saint. No divine encounter and it's damnation. Once you've had the encounter, and only after this, are you able to 'understand' scripture.

1 November 2011 at 20:09  
Blogger Gavin said...

Now, now, Inspector:
(18:19) "you proudly announce there is no salvation for [Jimmy Savile]. He has been judged, here on earth by you – your arrogance knows no bounds, does it"

(19:14) "Satan no doubt counts YOU as one of his own. Needless to say your pitiful soul will answer for this at YOUR judgement day"

Mr Pot, may I introduce Mr Kettle???

1 November 2011 at 20:11  
Blogger Gavin said...

Aaah, but Dodo, Len does not have as closed a mind as you imagine, otherwise he would have simply shrugged off the concept of 'charismatic renewal' in the organised church. Instead, he was genuinely surprised by his discovery. I could almost feel his thought coming through in his post: "Hold on a second, I never expected to find this! This just might change my perspective, provided that it is genuinely of God".
So of course Len is on a journey, as are we all. He has a good grounding in Scripture, and is using the established Anglican principle of Sola Scriptura to guide his thoughts. I daresay the Holy Spirit is more than capable of guiding each person according to what they are grounded in.

1 November 2011 at 20:28  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


I had thought that too but his subsequent comment implied this was a movement oppossed to 'orthodox' Catholicism which he dismissed beyond reform. A true charismatic Catholic would see no such scismatic division. Bear in mind the parameters put on the movement by the Church leaders.

Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see. I do hope so.

1 November 2011 at 20:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Gavin Len is indeed on a journey, with people who know him crossing the street when he approaches...

Did say he would answer, but then we all will, but carefully, did not pronounce his outcome...

1 November 2011 at 21:05  
Blogger Gavin said...

Dodo, at this point I recall the quote from Pope Benedict, which you gave earlier in this thread:

"a dogmatic faith unsupported by personal experience remains empty; mere personal experience unrelated to the faith of the Church remains blind".

That is a very wise saying indeed.
Through my childhood and teenage years as a Catholic, the former was exclusively my experience of church life. Purely dogmatic, all 'bells and smells' and ritual, but with no personal revelation of Christ to back it up.

Then, dramatic events took place which led to my involvement in the Charismatic renewal, and through that involvement, I experienced something very much like what Len once described in another thread: A deeply personal encounter with the Lord (specifically, an encounter of His healing power), which "made my faith come alive" for the first time, so to speak.

For a while after this extraordinary event, the whole 'charismatic' approach seemed to me to be 'more real' than the more routine aspects of Church life. It was a stage I had to go through! I thought of my faith as purely "MY personal experience with The Lord", or something like that.

Nowadays, just as you say, I can see that the charismatic movement is not something separate from the Church, but part and parcel of the same Faith. But it took time for me to realise that (or, more accurately, to be guided into that truth by the Holy Spirit).

Perhaps this is why I would like to be as supportive and helpful to Len as I can be: I kind of recognise where Len is at, I think I have been there, broadly speaking. I can see why Len is distrustful of organised church life, and he does have a point: On the surface, it DOES appear to be very ritual-based, with very little emphasis on the power of the Holy Spirit. When a person does experience such a personal revelation, as Len has done, it can be so overwhelming that it's difficult to reconcile it with ...shall we say 'ordinary church worship'. The two things can seem wholly unrelated.

1 November 2011 at 21:14  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...



However, len really should hold off attacking Catholicism based on fantasy history and speculation about the real meaning of scripture. He should not expect everyone to have had the same life changing encounter as himself.

1 November 2011 at 22:09  
Blogger len said...


Thank you for your comments.

The one thing religion cannot do is give Life, and the one thing I am fearful of is that people who encounter religion will despair thinking that "This is all there is to it?" and give up seeking God.

I Pray that God will breathe His life into the Catholic Church through the Charismatic movement.


2 November 2011 at 08:21  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


You must stop projecting your own weaknesses onto others.

2 November 2011 at 22:10  
Blogger len said...

'But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
(2Corinthians 12:9)

2 November 2011 at 22:24  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


So go on then - tell us all about your weaknesses and boast about them! Is humility one of them?

See, the problem with projection is that the person is unaware of the weakness. It's a defence mechanism.

2 November 2011 at 22:36  
Blogger len said...

I think you just exhibited it Dodo!.

2 November 2011 at 22:45  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...


Not humiliy then.

2 November 2011 at 23:36  

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