Friday, November 18, 2011

Farage's Cromwell moment: "What in God's name gives you the right...?"

Cometh the hour, cometh the man. Nigel Farage might as well have said:
It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors. In the name of God, go!


Blogger Rebel Saint said...

Both great speeches, though Cromwell's triumphs IMHO. (Can you imagine any politician today calling upon Biblical analogy?)

The other major difference of course is that Farage's was delivered into the vacuous space that is the European "Parliament". In space, nobody hears you scream.

18 November 2011 at 11:10  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Just look what dear Oliver went on to achieve!

18 November 2011 at 11:22  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

I love the way they sat there looking away and shuffling their papers..

Reminds me of something..........

18 November 2011 at 11:22  
Blogger niconoclast said...

When will you ever hear a Tory speaking with such passion and conviction yet like sheep tory voters will carry on voting for tory made kebabs.

18 November 2011 at 11:26  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...


"Just look what dear Oliver went on to achieve!"

Unlike those nice popeys that were only morally infallible humans? Did the Holy Spirit tell them to kill and torture soooo many..or should they have been sitting in that chair, prior to decreeing to commit such atrosities, hoping for a divine leading at how to behave when representing Him *ironic chuckle*


I see the likkle fishie but is it on a dishie? Lime and Coriander @ the ready. YUMMY!

18 November 2011 at 11:34  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Did you not read that one of the most fundamental attributes of the Conservatives is their loyalty!
Loyalty to what I do not know. I believe it must be to their current leaders in order to preserve the possibility of promotion. It certainly can't be to the party’s policies or founding principles.

18 November 2011 at 11:38  
Blogger Elby the Beserk said...


Quite so. One of them gurning as well, for the full Bonkers Gordo effect. Now, where did we put the guillotine blades, they need sharpening.

This, as my sainted Grandma used to say, will end in tears

18 November 2011 at 11:42  
Blogger Hereward said...

Another classic salt in the wound tirade from Nigel. Its doing well on YouTube and no wonder.
It may not be as pretty as Cromwell's speech but tells it like it is.

Yes they are in denial, and yes we want to see them all fired, but Cromwell had a troop of musketeers at his elbow.

18 November 2011 at 11:46  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Throughout history the rulers of this land and others have sought influence and alliance through the marriage bed. This has been to avoid the militaristic route.
Twice in the last century we have had to prevent a military takeover of Europe and our own country.
After all that, we are on the verge of our sovereignty being subjugated by an unelected commission. Nearly everyone stands back and says 'What can we do'? At least Nigel is doing his bit to raise awareness.

18 November 2011 at 12:06  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Meanwhile Cameron is busy polishing Angela's shiny jackboots with his tongue and our stolen sovereignty.

Will we get the EU approved equivalent of the "peace in our time" speech upon his return?

18 November 2011 at 12:08  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

Oh, Cranmer, you unregenerate Englishman - you had to ruin it with a comparison to Cromwell. Other than that, good on you, Nigel.

18 November 2011 at 12:13  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Surely you're not a supporter of our loveable, gentle, fun loving, little Oliver?

Mind you, following treatment for 'valde melancolicus' (depressed, was he?) in 1628 he did undergo an emotional and spiritual (what did he take?). From being "the chief of sinners", he suddenly saw himself as having been called to be among "the congregation of the firstborn".( Oh dear!)

Saved, (was he 'reborn'?) from sin by 'God's mercy', He 'understood' (from what source, I wonder?) the Reformation had not gone far enough, that much of England was still living in sin (too much enjoyment going on, like Christmas celebrations?), and that Catholic beliefs and practices had to be fully 'removed' (er, Catholics had to be killed?).

A Christian soldier - off with their heads; put me in charge; no more laughting! Regicide, civil wars and a Republican Commonwealth with him as our puritan Lord Protector. What joy!

Yep, I guess 'Old Ironside' is probably your hero.

18 November 2011 at 12:18  
Blogger Sam Vega said...

A good speech, blunt and to the point. But Hereward makes an important point. A "Cromwell moment" is not making a speech. Many people can do that, Farage included. A "Cromwell moment" is making the speech when you have the wherewithall to make people take notice.

18 November 2011 at 12:54  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

This is the first time I've seen Mr Farage in action. Watched also a couple of interviews with him. Articulate, engaging, passionate and straight to the point. Too bad he's not your PM.

If you folks don't want him, can we have him? Although, with our Mr Hamper doing a good job, albeit softly and quietly, perhaps the Americans would like to take him to replace the current Disaster in Chief in the White House and in view of the sorry selection of nominees the GOP has been fielding.

18 November 2011 at 13:11  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dodo the 'stonefish'

"Surely you're not a supporter of our loveable, gentle, fun loving, little Oliver? " No more that Ernsty is a supporter of hedonistic loveable, gentle, fun loving 'Stars in their eyes' popes. 'Well, tonight Matthew, thought I'd be St Peter'. Give me a sword!

"Saved, (was he 'reborn'?) (Are Popes, as Christ said all must be to enter the kingdom?) from sin by 'God's mercy', He 'understood' (from what source, I wonder?)(Fables, legends and falsified documentation like popes?) the Reformation had not gone far enough, that much of England was still living in sin (too much enjoyment going on, like Christmas celebrations?)(Is England not living in sin still and relishing it?), and that Catholic beliefs and practices had to be fully 'removed' (er, Catholics had to be killed?).

'Just change the term catholics to non catholics and you will have your answer! Did you lot not do likewise, how are any justified in this behaviour...Oh, God requires the physical death of all who will not believe at the hands of His Believers, YES?'

"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his way and live? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore, turn yourselves, and live ye."--Ezek. 18:23, 32.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways, for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"--Ezek. 33:11.

It appears NOT!

Rome is just one church amongst many and it deludes itself that somehow it is blessed by Christ whereas it is held as an eternal example in scripture and history of what happens when you believe your own lies rather than God's Truth of what He requires of His own!

"Yep, I guess 'Old Ironside' is probably your hero." WRONG again!

Ernsty, my likkle Synanceia Verrucosa, the reformed and reformed further!


All who do things without God's Will in them, find that as they try to frustrate God's plans, but to their confusion, at length find that they only promoted those plans the more. It was said in reference to the plans laid by Joseph's brethren,--Ye meant it for evil, but God meant it for good, to save many people alive. God suffered their plans to go forward and seem to be fully executed; but then he put forth his hand and turned the whole to the utmost good.
As in the schemes of man-made religion in this country throughout it's history, whether Roman Catholic or Protestant, The Lord always prevails at His Good Pleasure! :)

18 November 2011 at 13:34  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

Do stay on topic, dear boy. We were discussing Oliver not the whole of Christian history! The chap was a raving, fanantical looney.

You do so remind me of Gollum with all your chorlting and chuckling to yourself:

Gollum: Sneaky little hobbitses

Gollum: [singing] The rock and pool, is nice and cool, so juicy sweet. Our only wish,
[he whacks the fish on the rock]
Gollum: to catch a fish,
[another whack]
Gollum: so juicy sweet.

Gollum: My Precious. My Precious.

18 November 2011 at 14:55  
Blogger Fausty said...

An inspired association, Archbishop.

18 November 2011 at 15:09  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...

The Rainbow Fish of the Chilatherina axelrodi genus.

Found in Indonesia and Papua New Guinea and typicall prefer narrow streams with gentle moving water.

18 November 2011 at 15:57  
Blogger OldSouth said...

One of your best posts ever, Your Grace!

The smirks on the faces of the New Lords of Europe tell the tale:

Truth? Shmuth!

Only. Power. Matters.

18 November 2011 at 16:56  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace

Excellent speech by Farage what !
Can’t think why the BBC didn't run it on their news, swine they are....

18 November 2011 at 18:29  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

@Office of Inspector General

The BBC don't show anything that occurs in the European "Parliament" because they are wise enough to know nothing that goes on in there is news. I guess it go into the Entertainment section with all the other non-consequential items.

The European Parliament is an irrelevance. And if I had the means I would love to get myself elected to be in it.

Does anyone know if it is possible for an independent to stand for MEP?

18 November 2011 at 18:57  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dodo aka Rainbow Fish of the Chilatherina axelrodi with french fries? Hey Ho. What a gay likkle fella you are.

Do stay on topic, dear boy.(Always do, lad) We were discussing Oliver not the whole of Christian history!(Ernst discusses whatever he likes, within HG's subject stated or commented on by others, as you have done/do, monotonously! - an aside. Rome is NOT the whole of christian history! Such presumption! *Chortling to himself*) The chap was a raving, fanantical looney.(As were/are your pontifex maximus's and their whole ba'looney)

You do so remind me of Gollum with all your chorlting and chuckling to yourself:

Dohllum: Sneaky little born-againers

Dohllum: [singing] The rock which is Peter, the rock which is Peter. Our only wish,
[he whacks the non catholics on the rock]
Dohllum: singing another likkle ditty;
Dear Guardian of Mary Dear nurse of her Child
Life's ways are full weary the dessert is wild
Bleak sands are all round us no home can we see
Sweet Spouse of our Lady we lean safe on thee

For thou to the pilgrim art father and guide
And Jesus and Mary felt safe at thy side
O Glorious Patron secure shall I be
Sweet Spouse of our Lady if thou stay with me

God chose thee for Jesus and Mary wilt thou
Forgive a poor exile for choosing thee now
There's no saint in heaven, St. Joseph like thee
Sweet Spouse of our Lady do thou plead for me.

Dohllum: Me Popeyness. Me Popeyness.(rolling his rosary beads between his likkle fins!

Ahh, they don't make heretical hymns like that anymore..Bless you.


18 November 2011 at 19:00  
Blogger bluedog said...

An excellent speech by Mr Farage, Your Grace. Let us hope that he is not arrested by the EU gendarmerie for inciting revolt.

Your communicant notes that Dave appears to have stood firm in Berlin and has again rejected a Tobin Tax. We must pray that so emboldened, Dave finally recognises that he will lose the next election if he denies the British electorate a referendum on the EU.

When the European Union is repressing democracy, Britain needs to become a beacon of democracy and hope once again.

18 November 2011 at 19:31  
Blogger len said...

Dodo`s latest persona, So that`s what a piranha looks like?. I always wondered...

18 November 2011 at 19:36  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Rebel Saint. The Inspector can’t help you there, but does suggest you find out how much the bond is that you have to lodge which is forfeit if you fail to secure a certain percentage of the vote. However, on the bright side, if you were to change your name to your nom de plume, and ran on an anti EU ticket, you may well save it...

18 November 2011 at 19:39  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...


One has to remain gay in these queer times.

Hail, Queen of Heaven

Hail, Queen of heav'n, the ocean star.
Guide the wand'rer here below!
Thrown on life's surge we claim thy care.
Save us from peril and from woe.
Mother of Christ, Star of the sea,
Pray for the wanderer. Pray for me.

O gentle, chaste, and spotless Maid,
We sinners make our prayers thro' thee.
Remind thy Son that He has paid
The price of our iniquity.
Virgin most pure, Star of the sea,
Pray for the sinner. Oh, pray for me.

Sojourners in this vale of tears,
To thee, blest advocate, we cry.
Oh, pity our sorrows, calm our fears.
And soothe with hope our misery.
Refuge in grief, Star of the sea,
Pray for the mourner, Oh, pray for me.

18 November 2011 at 19:46  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Indeed. ‘Hail Mary’ was very popular with Catholic troops during WWII. “Pray for us sinners, in the hour of our death”. Must have brought comfort to many facing that...

18 November 2011 at 19:51  
Blogger Emlyn Uwch Cych said...

Old Nigel really does have the cojones to tackle the beasts of Babylon.

If we had PR in Britain, he'd probably be PM.

18 November 2011 at 19:59  
Blogger len said...

The phrase “the queen of heaven” appears in the Bible twice, both times in the book of Jeremiah. The first incident is in connection with the things the Israelites were doing that provoked the Lord to anger. Entire families were involved in idolatry. The children gathered wood, and the men used it to build altars to worship false gods. The women were engaged in kneading dough and baking cakes of bread for the “Queen of Heaven” (Jeremiah 7:18). This title referred to Ishtar, an Assyrian and Babylonian goddess also called Ashtoreth and Astarte by various other groups. She was thought to be the wife of the false god Baal, also known as Molech. The motivation of women to worship Ashtoreth stemmed from her reputation as a fertility goddess, and, as the bearing of children was greatly desired among women of that era, worship of this “queen of heaven” was rampant among pagan civilizations. Sadly, it became popular among the Israelites as well.

As I said on another thread Catholicism has incorporated many pagan rites into its theology.

18 November 2011 at 20:08  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...


Our Lady has always been available to all men and pleads even now with her Son on our behalf.

Do you remember the 'Message of Fatima' and that awful vision of Hell revealed to the seers?

Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent.

There's something wrong with your powers of perception.

It's a Rainbow Fish of the Chilatherina axelrodi genus found in Indonesia and Papua New Guinea and typically prefers narrow streams with gentle moving water.

18 November 2011 at 20:18  
Blogger Ir'Rational said...

Well said, Sir.
All three of you (I include His Grace).

18 November 2011 at 20:51  
Blogger Berserker said...

The State as an object of loyalty started with Richelieu. It ruined France. Prior to that time, across Europe the citizens duty was to the King, the local fief, other people... He made the State. Whoever exercises a public function must have as their only loyalty - the State. Not the King. No one else. Europe thus began their slippery slope. He was of course a near contemporary of Cromwell and even fought some battles. He commanded the troops against the Huguenots at the siege of La Rochelle.

So the great and glorious EU and its aspirations would have made the Cardinal proud except that as an intelligent man he would see the intellectual poverty of those within it.

Thank you Nigel. The great and glorious barrage of Farrage made my evening.

18 November 2011 at 21:00  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. You dare to belittle the mother of Christ. Hell awaits you....

18 November 2011 at 21:09  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. The Inspector remembers reading it. A bowel moving moment, to be sure....

18 November 2011 at 21:12  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Berserker @ 21.00, another of Cardinal Richelieu's achievements was to reduce the German-speaking population of Europe by about 30% through continually provoking what became the Thirty Years War. Sometimes this communicant suspects that a lot of German actions with regard to France are motivated by a sense of 'Never Again'. Arguably, without France, the German-speaking peoples may have remained in a happily fractured state.

18 November 2011 at 22:05  
Blogger len said...

Inspector, we are not talking about the Mother of Christ)in case you didn`t notice) but the' Queen of Heaven'.They are not the same person.

The Catholic 'Mary' is certainly not the same 'Mary mother of Jesus'.

The phantom of a 'Holy Mother' has proved quite an earner for the Church of Rome, more tangible than the Holy Spirit, more approachable than Christ.

Having hijacked the 'sacred feminine' for the cause of Catholicism back in the 4th century, papal agents ever since have fashioned the Blessed Virgin into a malleable instrument of Catholic policy. 'Mary' was, and remains, the 'Word' of the Catholic hierarchy, a convenient, adaptable, protagonist of Church policy, freed not only from the laws of the physical universe but also from the restraints of Gospel teaching.

18 November 2011 at 22:14  
Blogger The Way of Dodo said...


Bad boy, you've been surfing that net again. Christianity had to emerge out of the murky world of counterfeit pagan god and goddesses. Now some are attempting to drag the world back by undermining centuries of doctrine.

You're dabbling with dangerous stuff reading these lies and deceptions. Just be sure you are on the right side of this battle.

18 November 2011 at 23:06  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. The Catholic 'Mary' is certainly not the same 'Mary mother of Jesus'.

Quite astonishing. The Inspector recognises that you protestants have a low opinion of the mother of Jesus, but surely not this....

18 November 2011 at 23:14  
Blogger English Viking said...


Cromwell was a liar, thief and a murderer, Farage is a tit.

18 November 2011 at 23:33  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


Well said, Sir.


18 November 2011 at 23:44  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Viking. Agreed, except for that bit about Farage...

18 November 2011 at 23:52  
Blogger English Viking said...

General Sir,

He really is a nasty little man. His speeches thrill those of small minds.

If he really meant what he said, he would be dead by now.

A dirty little puppet, an amusing distraction, that's all he is.

Words, well, they are not so difficult.

Actions, a whole different ball game.

19 November 2011 at 00:34  
Blogger English Viking said...


Missed me?

19 November 2011 at 00:38  
Blogger English Viking said...


Sometimes I'm nice.

Sometimes I'm nasty.

Most times I'm just sorry.

19 November 2011 at 00:42  
Blogger English Viking said...


You dirty little cat-lick, you know I love you.

My absence was enforced - I'm afraid a fight broke out and numerous small people in blue clothes arrived at my house.

Really, please, believe me - I could have won before they had even realised they had lost, but self-restraint had the better of me.

I was taught not to hurt weak people.

1 week is nothing. Did they think I would cry?

I like being on my own. Solitary confinement is not really a punishment, is it?

PS Farage is a C#%?

19 November 2011 at 01:04  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


I have missed you. We disagree on so many things but I love you too.

I've grown a little unpopular lately you'll probably be glad to hear. Being rude and offensive and such like. Still like you I speak my mind.

Will you be returning to the fold?

19 November 2011 at 01:22  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

One qualification about Mr Farage, if I may. The parts of the female human anatomy to which you compare him are God given and serve a purpose.

19 November 2011 at 01:36  
Blogger English Viking said...


I'm being modded to death.

When you say fold, do you mean dirty cat-licks or C of E?

I'm neither.

19 November 2011 at 01:41  
Blogger non mouse said...

I'm among those who wonder about Farage's longevity. Someone did get at his aircraft, a while back, as I recall...

Meanwhile, I'm glad the footage is making it to You-Tube and the blogs. Thank you, Your Grace.

19 November 2011 at 04:31  
Blogger The Judicious Hooker said...

A politician who says it how it is - a rare find. The final image of the Youtube clip - the EU stars projected into the murky depths of the Venetian harbour - says it all!

And on the Blessed Virgin Mary:

The Vatican-conceived Mary: born without original sin and sinless herself (not Biblical); perpetual virgin (Scripture talks of Jesus having siblings); assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven (not Biblical but maybe the Revelation 12 image of the BVM/church triumphant foreshadows this); and recently Mediatrix of all Grace (unscriptural and contrary to the saving role of Christ as Mediator and Redeemer).

The Scriptural Mother of the Lord: full of grace/highly favoured, handmaid of the Lord, all generations call her blessed, magnifier of the Lord, lowly and humble, open to God's Word, fearless and courageous, storing up and reflecting on the Word, telling others 'to listen to Jesus and do what he says', bearing faithful witness to Jesus at the cross, praying with the other disciples as they await the gift of Pentecost.

Who needs post-Biblical 'revelations' (Fatima or Lourdes etc?), when reflecting on the Word of God provides us with the true image of the BVM as Theotokos-Godbearer, Christo-centric and his first disciple?

Additionally, Christians should praise and pray WITH the saints, not TO them. As His Grace's Communion rite so beautifully phrases it: "with angels and archangels and all the company of heaven".

We have one Mediator between God and humanity, Jesus Christ. All prayer should be directed to the holy, glorious and blessed Trinity. Saints on earth and heaven pray WITH us TO the triune God.

19 November 2011 at 05:00  
Blogger len said...

Well said The Judicious Hooker(a more honest profession than many who profess to be 'priests of God'and 'believers'.

The Catholic 'Mary mother of God 'Queen of Heaven etc' is certainly not the humble Miriam mother of Jesus but a Catholic invention.
The Catholic invention would shock and horrify the true Mother of Jesus as would the Islamic 'Jesus'(another invention.)

Trouble is the adherents of Catholicism have made a' Golden Calf' of this invention and bow down and worship it. Muslims also remain in ignorance of the true nature and the Divinity of Jesus Christ and thereby are denied salvation.
I would say that Catholics far from respecting the Mother of Jesus have done Her the greatest disservice.

As I said Dodo trace the roots of your 'religion' back to base(if you dare) ( Here is a snippet for you to be going on with.) Constantine professed to become a Christian and began to push Christianity on the pagans; not by conversion, but simply by letting them join. Many of these pagans who joined the "church" brought with them their beliefs about the Great Mother. They had grown up with this belief so long that they did not want to give it up. So the "church" compromised. Rather than force the pagans to give up the Babylonian idea of the Great Mother, they decided (in order to increase their numbers) to adopt this belief into the church. Mary, the mother of Jesus, became the Great Mother to the pagans. This satisfied both sides. The "Christians" were happy because the pagans were "worshipping" the Christian God. The pagans were happy because they had their Great Mother to worship. Thus, little by little, the worship of Mary worked its way into the "church" which is known today as the Catholic Church.

19 November 2011 at 08:30  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

Funny how many deranged ranters of the protestant persuasion there are on this blog.

Is there something about that cult that unhinges the mind or does it just attract nutters?

19 November 2011 at 08:42  
Blogger len said...

Are you saying that as one attracted?.Bit harsh on yourself?.

19 November 2011 at 08:46  
Blogger len said...

Dodo a bit more info about the Catholic'invention' for you to mull over(when you take a short break from your rosary beads )

'There are other similarities which show that the Catholic doctrine of Maryolotry is an offshoot of Babylonianism. In his deified form, Ninrod the Sun god is known as Baal. Semiramis, as the female divinity, would be called Baalti. This word translated into English means "My Lady." In Latin it would be translated "Mea Domina". This name becomes the name "Madonna" which is the name by which Mary is often referred. The same reasoning can be applied to the name of "Mediatrix", which Mary is also called. Since the Bible teaches that there is only one mediator between God and man, and that One being Jesus Christ (I Timothy 2:5), it is obvious that Mary did not receive that title in a Biblical way. She instead acquired it from "Mylitta" (mediatrix) which was one of the names of the Mother Goddess of Babylon.(10) "The Queen of Heaven" is another name for Mary that has been adopted from the pagan Babylonian religions. Thus it is obvious that the Catholic doctrine of Maryolotry is nothing more than the ancient Babylonianism dressed up in Christian terminology.'.
(Full article)
(Mystery Babylon the Great - The Babylonian Roots of Catholicism ...

19 November 2011 at 08:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Nowhere Man. Who knows ! And for those detractors of Mary, you know it’s been a while since the Inspector has seen so much cutting and pasting, what !

19 November 2011 at 08:58  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Viking. He really is a nasty little man. His speeches thrill those of small minds.

Now you are definitely wrong there ! And how do we know ? Because the Inspector himself is thrilled by his speeches...

19 November 2011 at 09:02  
Blogger Nowhere man said...


I subscribe to the belief that we are all a little mad but I profess to being nowhere mad enough to join that flock....

Just go back and read some of the guff. I hope the contributors wear bibs for I fear they drool as the cut/paste and type....

19 November 2011 at 09:15  
Blogger Hugh Jeego said...

His Grace is correct, len is correct, Farage is correct and Cromwell was (usually) correct. All else is idle flummery.

19 November 2011 at 09:47  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


NO .... I am aware of your indpendence of belief. I meant will you be returning here.

19 November 2011 at 10:25  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

The Judicious Hooker said ...

Who needs post-Biblical 'revelations' (Fatima or Lourdes etc?), when reflecting on the Word of God provides us with the true image of the BVM as Theotokos-Godbearer, Christo-centric and his first disciple?

I wouldn't be quite so dismissive of reported and authenticated appearances of Mary. Have you studied the accounts before denying their relevance?

They are not "post-Biblical 'revelations'" but consist of a series of prophetic messages to mankind from Our Blessed Lady.

I would advise caution before ignoring them and recommend you spend some time studying Akita and Fatima in particular.

19 November 2011 at 11:06  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

The Nowhere man made Ernsty guffaw out loud @19 November 2011 09:15

Hellooo me likkle fur clad fishie.

Another of those multi 'persona non grata's' we see!..and you promised HG, how could you. Have you no honour? *sighs and rolls eyes towards heaven*
It's the 'St Lennonitus' that gives you away, my strange scouser.

"He's as blind as he can be,
Just sees what he wants to see,
Nowhere Man can you see me at all?" EXACTLY!



They are not "post-Biblical 'revelations'" but consist of a series of prophetic messages to mankind from Our Blessed Lady.HA HA HA HA...stop it.

I would advise caution before ignoring them and recommend you spend some time studying Akita
(Akita, tell me what’s wrong
You’re enchained by your own sorrow
In your eyes there is no hope for tomorrow
How I hate to see you like this
There is no way you can deny it
I can see that you’re oh so sad, so quiet...AAAAAhhhh. Ernst loves 'ABBA'..;)) and Fatima
(There is NO way that she will win I'm a celebrity, get me out of heeeeeereee... Do you like manly javelin throwing women and hope to compete in the event next year, my strange fishie?) in particular. YOU ARE REALLY TOOOOO MUCH, you Catholic answer to Harold Camping, you. *Ribs hurting, can't breath. HEEEEELLLLPPP.*

19 November 2011 at 11:44  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Nowhere Man. What was that you were saying about ‘deranged ranters’...

19 November 2011 at 11:50  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


Oh My Good Lord, He IS possed by the deranged spirit of Gollum so ably captured by Tolkein!

It cannot be seen, cannot be felt,
Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt.
It lies behind stars and under hills,
And empty holes it fills.
It comes first and follows after,
Ends life, kills laughter.

19 November 2011 at 12:11  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

19 November 2011 at 12:20  
Blogger English Viking said...


I pop in now and again, but I do limit myself nowadays, partly because I cannot be bothered to argue with people I don't know about stuff I cannot prove and partly because I know that HG is not one of my biggest fans.

He has started whining again about closing his blog and I think that would be a bad thing, for others as well as myself. If he does take his bat and ball home, I don't want to responsible for it.

BTW If I was to backslide completely I might one day find myself in one of those magnificent buildings incorrectly known as a church, but never a cat-lick one. This savage has some standards, don't you know?

PS What's with the fish? It looks a bit gay.

19 November 2011 at 12:21  
Blogger English Viking said...


Mary has been a long time dead now.

Very cold, very dead.

The so called appearances of her are either lies, figments of furtive imaginations, demonic deceptions or actually devils themselves.

The woman is dead.

19 November 2011 at 12:25  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

Ernsty, Smeagol-Gollum

A simple click on the profile of Nowhere Man will confirm his authenticity. But then seeking the truth isn't one of your stong points, is it?

Apology due if you're man enough.

Something for you to reflect on:

Smeagol: Go away!
Gollum: "Go away?"
[Gollum laughs as Smeagol begins crying]

Smeagol: I hate you, I hate you.
Gollum: Where would you be without me, gollum, gollum? I saved us! It was me! We survived because of me!

19 November 2011 at 12:30  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

I know what you mean about ABC but I'm sure he won't be influenced by the odd eccentric character provided one stays within the bounds of decency.

I am gay fish these days! Not homosexual you understand. Just tired of the queer abuse of the God given symbol of His love for mankind.

As for Marian apparations, I agree with you. They are either from Heaven or from Hell. We each have to make up our own mind's on this one. Have you actually studied them?

If you do enter one of God's Houses to pray it can't do any harm. Regardless of denomination they are uplifting. Myself, I'll never forget visiting a small, humble Greek Orthodox church in the Penopolese Mountains in the early 1970's. I date my conversion to that visit.

Take care and God Bless you.

19 November 2011 at 12:41  
Blogger English Viking said...


The church is God's house, the church being the body of believers either locally, nationally or globally. It is not a building, nor an organisation, it is an organism, a body, with Christ as its head.

Ekklesia, and all that jazz.

I admit to making little more than a cursory investigation into the Mary business. I know from my Bible that she cannot possibly be what the RCC claim she is, else Christ is a mere side-show, and therefore I tend to dismiss such fantasies with the same disdain I have for similar theories on little green men from Mars and pixies at the garden gate.

19 November 2011 at 12:58  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


I don't disgree about the meaning of the word 'church' but it can be both an assembly and a physical structure. Besides, a building seperated from the world and dedicated to God cannot be a bad thing.

About Mary, that's your priviledge. And do you really know the Catholic Church's teachings on Mary? However, that's as maybe, I think events on October 17th 1917at Cova da Iria, Fatima, witnessed by 70,000 people, are of a different order to reports of little green men and pixies.

19 November 2011 at 13:14  
Blogger English Viking said...


One must have a sure footing if one is to stand fast in times of deception, and that footing is the word of God, the Bible.

It is abundantly clear that Christ has no co-redemtrix, which IS the teaching of the RCC, with Mary as the protagonist, therefore I care nothing of how many people claim to have seen an apparition, it does not fit with the Word, therefore it is demonic or merely a delusion, auto-suggestion or a deliberately staged con.

Will not the Anti-Christ perform miracles, possess such supernatural powers that dopey people who should know better will declare him to be very God Himself? If 70,000 persons attested to this, would you bow to him as you do a dead woman?

I shall argue no further on the matter. Read your Bible (even the extra tat in the middle you left-footers like) without your Popey specs on and you will find ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to justify the idolatry that is the worship of the long dead sinner, Mary.

19 November 2011 at 13:40  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


" ... the long dead sinner, Mary."

Now that comment about Mary is unwarrented and heretical. You really should time considering this more rather than repeating protestant misrepresentations.

Catholics believe Mary, the mother of Jesus, was conceived without original sin. From the first moment of her existence she was preserved by God from the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts mankind, and was instead filled with divine grace. She lived a life completely free from sin.

Not in the Bible? There are a lot of Christian doctrines not there too. Where does it clearly state that Jesus is an equal Person of the Triune God?

Central to Catholic theology is the belief that Mary did not only participate in the birth of the human Jesus but also, with conception, she entered with him into a spiritual union. The divine salvation plan, being not only material, includes a permanent spiritual unity with Christ. Saint Pius X expressed it thus: "there is no more direct road than by Mary for uniting all mankind in Christ." The rest flows from this.

Catholics do not believe Mary relegates Jesus to being a side-show. Far from it.

As for the Miracle at Fatima its highly unlikely the Devil would send an apparation urging people to return to Christ! Even the Freemasons and Socialists of the time recognised this and sought to silence the children.

19 November 2011 at 14:04  
Blogger Oswin said...

I applaud Farage, but tend to wince at his too colloquial stridency. I'm sure he does his best; he stands alone, and must make his voice heard. Alas, he is not the bulldog required, but rather the yapping, worrying Jack Russell, that unfortunately, oftentimes serves to irk both friend and foe alike.

The small dog barking hopes to summon larger hounds; but, seemingly deaf, and all too probably neutered, they do not come to his aid. He does his best, true and brave little dog that he is. Respect!

19 November 2011 at 15:17  
Blogger English Viking said...


I know what cat-licks believe; my objections to most of their rot is that it has absolutely no foundation in scripture, as you have admitted. As for Mary being a viaduct to Christ, and therefore God ... There is ONE mediator between man and God, the MAN, Christ Jesus (my emphasis).

True, that the word 'trinity' does not appear in The Bible, although I hope you'll agree that the doctrine is clearly taught and scripture is littered with references to a tri-une God. The same is not so for the offering of prayer to Mary, or any other dead person for that matter.
This is where left-footers fail; they believe unscriptural doctrines that fly in the face of the revealed will of God in scripture, simply because a man (or even a woman, on occasion) in a silly hat says so. They fear the things that are seen and handled, not the things of God, nor God himself. They idolise a sinful man as Papa, (something else expressly forbidden by Christ Himself), they idolise a dead, sinful woman, they are what they do: idolators.

The Devil was not appealing to people to turn to Christ at Fatima, as is evidenced by the idolatrous statue of dead Mary which is worshiped there.

Why did Mary refer to God as her 'saviour' if she did not need to be saved as she was sinless?

Was she still 'immaculate' after Joseph had had his way with her, at least six times?

She's dead dude, and so is your reasoning.

PS You know why the Pope wears that silly hat, don't you?

It's to hide his horns.

19 November 2011 at 15:22  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

These are matters of faith.

Coming cold to the Bible I doubt I would see references to a Triune God. Jesus' relationship the the Father and Holy Spirit took the church 350 years to define.

Similarly, one can see clear allusions to Mary from Genesis to Revelation.

And of course God is the saviour of Mary! Who else could grant the perfect gift of sanctifying Grace to her? Are you saying God is bound by anything other than His nature?

And, of course, neither the Pope nor Mary are 'idolised' - as you well know.

19 November 2011 at 15:53  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Dodo's Way off target, as per @19 November 2011 12:30

Dear fishduck

It appears you are as inept at humour as you are at Roman Catholicism.

Regurgitated lines from Tolkien. How original! Ha Ha Ha.

Thought you wre from the home of humour.

Poor doddy, unlike your namesake. How very un-Tattifalarious.

Do we need a workout at the laughter gym? It appears so.

Ernsty 'Originality only mirth maker' Blofeld

19 November 2011 at 16:03  
Blogger English Viking said...


Idolatry is the offering of prayer, praise or worship, which ought rightly be offered to God, to any person or thing other than God. This includes those dreadful statues of Mary, and the heresy that Benny the Nazi is God's personal representative on Earth, his 'vicar of Christ', no less.

As well you know.

PS He wears that silly dress to cover up his pointy tail, too.

19 November 2011 at 16:08  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


"Another of those multi 'persona non grata's' we see!..and you promised HG, how could you. Have you no honour?"

Never mind all the flannel, where's the apology?

Do the honourable thing and recant - let Smeagol overcome Gollumm.

19 November 2011 at 16:13  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Good day to you Bloefeld. You really ought to hand your keyboard to your cat, you know. Sure she’ll make more sense than you, what ! [HAW! HAW!}

19 November 2011 at 16:24  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


But the Pope IS Christ's Vicar on earth! Catholics don't idolise the Pope - we respect his Holy Office.

Catholics pray to Mary and the saints in Heaven to ask her and them to intercede for us to Her Son. Neither she nor they are worshipped as a gods or goddesses.

You do understand the difference between the concepts of veneration and adoration? All very Calvanistic this position of yours. It's one shared by Islam!

19 November 2011 at 16:26  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


Still no word from len and poor old Albert has waited patiently all day and kept the thread free for him.

19 November 2011 at 16:29  
Blogger William said...

EV on a raiding party is a sight to behold. He wields a very precise axe.

19 November 2011 at 16:31  
Blogger William said...

A fish called Dodo said

"But the Pope IS Christ's Vicar on earth!"

How do you know personally know this?

19 November 2011 at 16:35  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, believes anything the Pope tells him because he has this magic chair and he sits on it and............

19 November 2011 at 16:54  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


Vicar is simply a term meaning a representative, deputy or substitute; anyone acting "in the person of "or agent for a superior.

It's in the Bible!

"Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
(Matthew 16:17-18)

The Apostles, with Peter as their head, are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all.

Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism)

This is vicarious authority reinforced in other passages too.

Matt. 10:1 & 40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me."

Jesus freely gave His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

And before you come back with the Greek argument abour Rock and pebble, remember Jesus was speaking in Aramaic.

19 November 2011 at 17:04  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Ooig waffled somewhat. What! 19 November 2011 16:24

Good day to you, FishDuck's sidelick.

Looks like that strong cuppa darjeeling handed by those kind ole dears in the tea room has gone to your noggin.

May Ernst recommend a workout at the laughter gym and ypu take likkle Doddy as a workout partner?

Say 3 'knock knocks' and two ' A priest, a nun and the pope walked into a bar..'

Ernsty WHAT! *pardon the Guffaws*

19 November 2011 at 17:14  
Blogger len said...

In Catholicism the Pope is elevated to such an exalted position that these men actually believe they are Christ on earth. They refer to themselves as “Vicarius Christi” which is Latin for Vicar of Christ. “The Latin equivalent of the Greek word “anti” is “vicarious” from which comes Vicar. So those who refer to themselves as Vicar of Christ are actually calling themselves anti-Christ, or another Christ.” “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.” Matthew 24:4-5.
The question is, who would follow such men? Why would anyone want to replace our Lord Jesus the Christ the Creator of the universe with a mere human? The answer can be found in the above verse “Take heed that no man deceive you”. The deception has been with us since the Apostles wrote their epistles. In the fourth century AD Constantine became the first pope. From that time on the popery began their reign of terror by deceiving and murdering the masses. When the word of God is not taken seriously the deception is easily manifested.

19 November 2011 at 17:19  
Blogger English Viking said...


I believe it is called the testicle chair.


Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Scriptures please. We all know the gobshite popey spouts, what does The Bible say?

19 November 2011 at 17:28  
Blogger len said...

In the time of Christ, three languages figured prominently in the lives of the people of Judaea -- the common language of Aramaic, the language of Hebrew, used in the synagogues, and the Greek language -- which was commonly spoken and understood throughout the Roman Empire.

Some Aramaic words and expressions are preserved in the Gospels, such as Talitha cum, which means, "Little girl, get up!" (Mark 5:41). Also, Abba ("Father"; Mark 14:36; Gal.4:6; Rom.8:15); Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani ("My God, my God, why have you forsaken me"; Mark 15:34); Cephas ("Peter"; John 1:42); Mammon ("Wealth"; Matt.6:24, RSV); Raca ("Fool"; Matt.5:22, RSV). In fact, we can be specific and say that Jesus spoke a Galilean version of "western Aramaic," which differed from that which was spoken in Jerusalem (Matt.26:73; compare Acts 2:7).

Jesus could also read and speak Hebrew. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls has proved that Hebrew was used quite extensively in certain circles, especially for religious purposes. Jesus stood up and read the Hebrew Scriptures in the synagogue of Nazareth (Luke 4:16-20), showing He could also read and speak Hebrew. Some Hebrew words are also preserved in the gospels, such as, Ephphatha ("Be opened"; Mark 7:34); Amen ("Amen": Matt.5:26; Mark 14:30, RSV).

So to say Jesus spoke Aramaic exclusively is nonsense.

19 November 2011 at 17:32  
Blogger William said...


All the disciples were given this authority. Therefore there is no single "vicar of Christ". A rock is not a vicar either.

"Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism) "

That is an unbiblical opinion from someone who appears to worship a rather ineffectual god! Can your God not work through all things?

19 November 2011 at 17:45  
Blogger English Viking said...


Petra and petros.

It's all so simple, but some people refuse to see the nose on their face.

God has a special place for people like the pope. Real special.

19 November 2011 at 17:50  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

Not only a biblical expert but a language expert too.

Vicar means anti-Christ! Where on earth do you drag up this nonsense from? This is an old, old Puritan and Seventh Day Adventist thesis.

More lies and deceptions from your websites of poison. The nearest equivalent Greek word, setting aside the difficulties entailed in switching between Latin and Greek, is used to refer to a substitute. The actual Greek word you're searching for is "antikeimenos" which denotes "opposeth", a usurper and imitator.

Vicarius Christi - in Latin and Greek simply means Christ's deputy, His representative, until He returns.

Next you'll be ressurecting the old numerology thesis about the title adding up to 666 or the one about the hidden jewels on the Papal Tiara!

I had hoped you'd be conversing with Albert rather than being objctionable towards me. Parady doesn't suit you; you've not got the intelligence to pull it off.

I'm neither fish nor fowl, dear chappie. Man-up and apologise. You'll feel better for it.

19 November 2011 at 18:15  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

The Aramaic is Kephas and kephas.

Do try to keep a civil tongue in your head.

The one, true God does indeed work through all things - even bringing good from evil.

He hasn't promised all men will be saved. The chaos and confusion reigning in the many heretical protestant sects evidences the need for Apostolic leadership and a teaching authority.

The bible is full of examples underlining the primacy of Peter,

19 November 2011 at 18:27  
Blogger Di said...

While our democracy is going to hell in a german-made handcart,the subject wake-up speech is being buried under mountains of sleep-inducing theology.Could this be a deliberate strategy?

Someone earlier likened Nigel to a terrier; he is certainly tenacious in our defence. Theologians do not risk their lives for the sheep. Farage will do for me until a bulldog appears.

19 November 2011 at 18:30  
Blogger len said...

Jesus also called Peter Satan...are you claiming that one for your 'foundation stone' Dodo?.

19 November 2011 at 18:35  
Blogger English Viking said...


Your arguments in favour of the RCC cult would carry more weight if the main men involved in it were not Nazis, Jew haters and the buggerers of boys.

Popiness is dirty.

19 November 2011 at 18:44  
Blogger len said...

Di 'Theologians do not risk their lives for the sheep' .
That is precisely what we are arguing about.There are those who profess to be' infallible'but are merely usurpers leading the blind.(Or should that be the unscrupulous leading the gullible)
This can apply equally to religious leaders and Politicians.

Until we have a respect and a love of the Truth we will be lead by the unscrupulous and those whose only interest is in themselves.

19 November 2011 at 18:45  
Blogger English Viking said...

PS I'm reasonable at NT Greek, you've lost me entirely with Aramaic.

19 November 2011 at 18:47  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

I wonder what name Our Lord gives you?

Peter was human and flawed. He spoke from his heart out of love for Jesus the man. He was also the first Apostle granted the Grace to recognise Christ and made the great proclaimation before being appointed Kephas of His church and being given the Keys. Even so, he still attempted to prevent Christ being taken to His death and denied Him.

Evidence of human peccability - no more, no less - until the Holy Spirit came and guided him and the Apostles.

Albert is still waiting.

19 November 2011 at 18:48  
Blogger English Viking said...


I have no proof, but I believe it anyway; if Christ had wished to speak in Japanese it would have not troubled Him.

19 November 2011 at 18:50  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

Viking, the words of Jesus were Aramaic. The play on words in Matthew 16 is Aramaic, not Greek.

19 November 2011 at 18:51  
Blogger English Viking said...


Kephas? Who in their right mind would build upon a pebble?

19 November 2011 at 18:52  
Blogger English Viking said...


You've made a mistake sir. It is most definitely Greek.

19 November 2011 at 18:55  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

Viking, just for you 'cos I still love you.


19 November 2011 at 18:56  
Blogger non mouse said...

Well said, Di @ 18:30. It is a mark of deconstructionist tactics, however, that the instigators prevaricate - (yes, under false colours, even).

Nevertheless, the facts remain open on this forum, for everyone to see. All His Grace's posts presently suffer similar subversion.

19 November 2011 at 18:56  
Blogger len said...

Lets say Dodo is right.Jesus said on Peter I will build my Church . On Peter this unstable and headstrong man who denied Christ three times.
One second claiming the divinity of Christ in the next ,trying to stop Jesus fulfilling His mission?.Did Peter ever claim" I am the Rock"This of course would be the ultimate Blasphemy and denial of his Lord.

OR would Jesus (who is known throughout Scripture as the Rock) build His Church on Himself.
The Lord is my ROCK, and my fortress, and my deliverer. My God, is the ROCK of refuge. Psalm 18:2, 94:22.

God was their ROCK, and the high God their redeemer. Psalm 78:35.

Unto Thee will I cry, O LORD, MY ROCK; Psalm 28:1.

Bow down Thy thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be Thou my strong ROCK, FOR A HOUSE of defense to SAVE me. for Thou art my ROCK and my FORTRESS; therefore for Thy name's sake lead me, and guide me. Psalm 31:2,3).

I will say unto God my ROCK, why hast Thou forgotten me? Psalm 41:l0.

Lead me to the ROCK that is higher than I Psalms 61:2

He Only is my ROCK and my salvation; He is my defense; I shall not be moved. In GOD is my salvation and my glory: THE ROCK of my strength, and my refuge, is in God. Trust in him at all times, ye people, Pour out your heart before him; God is a refuge for us. Selah Psalm 62:6-8

To shew that the Lord is upright: He is my ROCK, and there is no unrighteousness in Him. Psalm92:15.

but the Lord is my defense; and MY GOD IS THE ROCK of my refuge. Psalm 94:22.

O Come, let us sing unto THE LORD; let us make a joyful noise to THE ROCK of our salvation. Psalm 95:1.

The stone which the builders refused is become the head of the corner. This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. Psalm 118:22, 23.

Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Isaiah 28:16.

Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto OUR GOD! He is THE ROCK, His work is perfect: for all his ways are judgement: Deuteronomy 32:3,4.

Then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed THE ROCK of his salvation. Deuteronomy 32:15, 18).

And he said: THE LORD IS MY ROCK, and my fortress, and my deliverer II Samuel 22:2.

(Of course Peter never was the 'rock' and never claimed to be.)

19 November 2011 at 18:59  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

len said ...

Peter this unstable and headstrong man who denied Christ three times.

Now you presume to judge St Peter! Is there no end to your arrogance? Christ choose him and set him apart for a reason.

19 November 2011 at 19:04  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

We keep getting these desperate attempts to connect Catholicism back to ancient Babylonian cults. Reason doesn’t seem to have much to do with it but rather a spirit of animosity. Let’s look at it objectively. What is being proposed is that the Catholic Church is actually an ancient cult hiding under the guise of Christianity. So the conclusion, would have to be that for 1500 year Catholicism managed to maintain the teaching about the Trinity, the divinity of Jesus, his redemptive sacrifice on the cross etc. but secretly didn’t believe any of it. Somehow this false Babylonian religion managed to pass on the true doctrine to Protestantism at the time of the Reformation and continues to the present day proclaiming Christ crucified while all the time trying to bring about the Kingdom of satan on Earth. Please. Wouldn’t it have made more sense not to pass on the true teachings to Protestantism?

If you want a connection back to ancient Babylonian cults then a more credible connection might be to Freemasonry and you know something – Freemasonry has been closely connected to Protestantism for hundreds of years. Christians who join the orange order or other freemason lodges have to swear the most satanic oaths and yet somehow it is the Catholic Church that is accused of satanism. The layout of the street plan of Washington designed by Protestants is based on Masonic symbols and for hundreds of years it is the Catholic Church that has warned people against the evils of Freemasonry – not Protestantism which has been complicit in its association with Freemasonry and has used the Orange order etc. to continue persecution even into the modern day. Unfortunately after the election of John 23rd in 1958 we no longer heard about the evils of Freemasonry or Communism from the Vatican. That is one criticism of the Catholic Church I would agree with but ancient Babylonian cults – get a life and start looking at the plank in your own eye.

With regard to Our lady being Queen of Heaven, just read Chapter 12 of Revelation “I saw a great sign in Heaven – a woman adorned with the sun”. Then look at what happened in Fatima in 1917 – the woman adorned with the sun appeared and told us one month before the Russian Revolution that Russia would spread her errors through the world. Could the great red dragon of Revelation Chapter 12 be communism (red = communism, dragon = China). She also predicted the Second World War. Just google ‘miracle of the sun’. - it’s not difficult to find.

19 November 2011 at 19:08  
Blogger len said...

Dodo you are not 'Albert' as well......are you?
I have only scanned through quickly and Albert does not seem to feature on this thread( perhaps you could 'call him up'? providing you are not him of course.That would be too weird.

19 November 2011 at 19:09  
Blogger English Viking said...


Christ set John apart, if any, not Peter.

I like Peter; a bit flaky at the start, but got there in the end.

A bit like me, maybe. But, for goodness sake, do not build a church on me, nor him.

19 November 2011 at 19:09  
Blogger English Viking said...


Blah, blah, blah. That was a very wordy post.

It could be summed up in 2 words; false premise.

19 November 2011 at 19:13  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Len, Of course Peter did not exalt himself. It was Jesus who gave him the name Petros which you have previously informed us means pebble. That's fine - Jesus is the rock and Peter is a pebble but a pebble is not straw. You still haven't given a good answer to the question "Why did Jesus change his name from Simon to Petros.

19 November 2011 at 19:14  
Blogger len said...

Are you seriously suggesting that believers should dabble in the Occult?.

Mat 16:4b (NIV) "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign."

2Thes 2:9-15 (TCN) For at the Coming of the Lord there will be great activity on the part of Satan, in the form of all kinds of deceptive miracles, signs, and marvels, as well as of wicked attempts to delude--to the ruin of those who are on the path to destruction, because they have never received and loved the Truth to their own Salvation. That is why God places them under the influence of a delusion, to cause them to believe a lie; so that sentence may be passed on all those who refuse to believe the Truth, but delight in wickedness.


19 November 2011 at 19:16  
Blogger English Viking said...


Please feel free to quote REV totally out of context in order to justify your false religion.

19 November 2011 at 19:16  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

English Viking - nice to have you back and hopefully one day we'll agree. Which premise is wrong - the connection between Freemasonry and Protestantism, between the Washington street plan and Masonic symbols or the connection between Chapter 12 of Revelation and the miracle of the sun at Fatima in 1917?

19 November 2011 at 19:18  
Blogger English Viking said...

Len is obviously a bit too happy- clappy for my liking, but his absolutely, totally and completely correct on this matter.

19 November 2011 at 19:19  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Lean said "Shacklefree,
Are you seriously suggesting that believers should dabble in the Occult?."

How did you get that interpreation from my comments?

19 November 2011 at 19:19  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

I think I've got it now. Do you think the Jews were looking for a miraculous sign when the water parted. Were the disciples looking for a miraculous sign when the were in the Upper Room just before Pentecost. We don't look for miraculous sign but when one appears we should do what the Jews and the disciples did - give credit to God.

19 November 2011 at 19:23  
Blogger English Viking said...


Who is the whore? A female, surely?

Please don't think me Protestant, in the true sense, any more than you would think me French.

Your premise is false because you juxtapose idolatry with Protestantism, and not Cat-lick filth, and accuse the proddies of being in league with the Sons of Boaz, when the evidence clearly points to left-footers here, there and indeed, everywhere.

19 November 2011 at 19:26  
Blogger English Viking said...

I'm bored now.

There is whisky to be drunk, and songs to be sung.

Let's hope there are fights to be fought.

Ha det bra.

19 November 2011 at 19:31  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

You're clearly unwilling to engage in a proper debate with Albert on the fundamentals of your 'faith'. He's much more patient, reasoned and informed than me. He was once an Anglican himself and entangled in your error.

Early today both the Inspector and I undertook to leave the field clear for a discussion between you about faith and works. Why are you reluctant to do so and hide behind this camouflage we are one and the same?

An opportunity awaits and you are showing yourself as lacking in substance.

19 November 2011 at 19:40  
Blogger len said...

Why did Jesus occasionally call Peter 'Simon' after He had changed His name to 'Peter'? Probably because Simon sometimes acted like his old self instead of what God had called him to be.God changed the names of several people in the Bible which signified a change within the person.It Peters case a change from instability to stability once he was standing on the true foundation(which is Christ)

The' rock 'spoken of by Jesus was the revelation that Jesus was the Christ the son of God which is the foundation of true belief.

19 November 2011 at 19:40  
Blogger len said...

Dodo , bring on Albert where is he ?Perhaps(nudge, nudge,wink, wink,)you could ask a question for him?

I will wait patiently(not to long though I have other things to do)

19 November 2011 at 19:43  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

len, you're being ridiculous.

Scroll down to the Rainbow street signs establish Liverpool ‘gay area’ thread. I'm sure you know this already.

I'll be watching with interest.

19 November 2011 at 19:54  
Blogger Muggins said...

I exopect this will be lost in the ocean of crazy comments here, but I saw an excellent comment on the Telegraph website about the German attitude in the EU. A quote:

"Germany wants to dominate all the other countries under German regulations and surrendered sovereignty in the Euro with Germany setting all the terms and an unfair exchange rate.

Merkel's comments that 'peace can not be guaranteed' was sinister, but meaningless in military terms.

They want to keep the UK on the back foot, hence the attack on the City, that can never go ahead, but the Germans will push the French in front to attack the UK and try to get concesions in return for dropping the Tobin proposals that are unworkable anyway...

Germany is exploiting the current position. But the other countries may leave the GermanEuro and form a NewEuro in a larger group at a fairer exchange rate. Then the German economy would have to compete fairly."

19 November 2011 at 19:58  
Blogger bluedog said...

Some good points, Muggins @ 19.56. It's a pity this thread has deteriorated into the usual doctrinal bickering between the usual parties. Why not just post the entirety of Canon Law on your own website and have done with it? What?

One thing is certain to this communicant. Over this weekend the eurozone situation has slipped beyond the point of responding to any political initiative.

The Eurocrats are now at the mercy of the global bond markets.

We have already seen that the various bail-out funds could not be financed, and that promised contributions never emerged. How much longer before the ECB meets the same fate? The ECB merely rests on the authority of the EU, but has no defined income stream to support it other than the EU itself. The EU is in utter disarray as Mr Farage implies. So what is ECB paper really worth, or is the ECB just another Ponzi scheme like Lehman Brothers? Central banks holding ECB paper must be starting to become very concerned indeed. Failure of the the ECB could trigger an unstoppable financial deluge within the eurozone. Losses in the banking system around the globe would be horrific.

Expect Clegg to renew his call that Britain should join the Euro. Any bets on the day of Clegg's announcement?

19 November 2011 at 20:24  
Blogger William said...


"Jesus freely gave His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world. "

Do you and I have this authority?

19 November 2011 at 20:27  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


Don't expect protestants to listen to criticisms about Freemasonry. The majority of Freemasons themselves are unaware of its true nature and purpose. It is only Roman Catholics who are forbidden to join.

I don't subscribe to organised conspiracy theories, as such, (from the Latin word meaning "to breathe the same") but there is, I think, a clear line linking the Reformation, the Enlightenment, and the Revolutions of 1789 and 1917. More recent events are heading in the same direction. Organised by a secret society or no, (and there is some evidence supporting this) the agenda is the same - the removal of the Christian faith and its replacement by a godless, worldwide human ethic.

19 November 2011 at 20:38  
Blogger English Viking said...


You are mistaken; before I knew better, I was a member of a CofE church.

The Vicar publicly called on a member to repent of his membership of the Freemasons.

He refused.

He was ex-communicated there and then. No Bishops, Prelates, Popes or Cardinals were involved.

Repent, or perish.

It's dead simple.

PS WV was ingen. Look it up in Norwegian.

19 November 2011 at 20:48  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

William, now you know the answer to this!

We each have a duty to share the message of Jesus Christ.

However, I'm not going to go about making up my own 'theology' based on an independent 'spirit filled' reading of the bible.

The Church has the teaching and leadership authority invested in it.

St Paul discusses the distribution of gifts and graces in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12.

19 November 2011 at 20:51  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


High Anglican 'Reformed and Catholic'? Hope it wasn't you?

Interesting but presumably left wih individual Ministers and the person would be at liberty to attend another church.

The Roman Catholic Church has a standing instuction binding on all its members:

“The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin, and may not receive Communion.”
(November 1983, “Declaration on Masonic Associations”)

19 November 2011 at 21:01  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

What does WV mean? I get the Norwegian!

19 November 2011 at 21:06  
Blogger Di said...

Len at 18.45.
When the ship goes down your work in arranging the deckchairs so perfectly will be burned by fire.

(Nice mix of metaphors there, don't you think?)

19 November 2011 at 21:07  
Blogger William said...

Dodo said

"We each have a duty to share the message of Jesus Christ."


"However, I'm not going to go about making up my own 'theology' based on an independent 'spirit filled' reading of the bible."

I am not asking you to.

"The Church has the teaching and leadership authority invested in it."

Are you part of the church? Has authority been invested in you to do this work?

"St Paul discusses the distribution of gifts and graces in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12."

He does indeed. Are they available to you?

Dodo, do you have the authority that you say Christ gave to the apostles?

Jesus said:

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age Mat 28:19-20

Dodo, have you been made a disciple? If so, do you have the authority of a disciple?

19 November 2011 at 21:28  
Blogger len said...

Di ,

We cannot be saved unless we know of a plan for salvation and how that plan is affected and how it applies to us.
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?'(Romans 10:14)

19 November 2011 at 21:42  
Blogger English Viking said...


WV is word verification.

19 November 2011 at 21:46  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


We all the authority that comes from membership of Christ's Body to be His evangelists, yes. Does every Christian have full authority to set off:

" .. teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

This is where I suspect we part company. After the Last Supper Jesus spoke with His Apostles:

"the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you."

"I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. But when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall show you."

I believe this was a commission given to the Apostles and thereafter they appointed deacons and disciples to go to nations.

Bottom line - I believe in an Apostolic Church with the authority to define doctrine and the duty of each member of the Church to recognise those appointed to teaching and leadership positions.

19 November 2011 at 21:54  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


Naturally,,and in accordance with my Roman Catholic faith, I should also add that I do not believe any Christian can administer Baptism, unless an emergency arises. This holds unconditionally for the other sacraments of the Church.

19 November 2011 at 22:12  
Blogger William said...

Dodo quoted

"the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you."

"I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. But when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall show you."

and said

"I believe this was a commission given to the Apostles and thereafter they appointed deacons and disciples to go to nations."

So you are saying that the Paraclete was for the Apostles and future deacons and disciples. I take it that you do not consider yourself to be any of these and that, therefore, the Paraclete is not for you? Is that right?

It is written

"And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days." Joel 2:28

Do you believe this? If so when do you think these days will come?

19 November 2011 at 22:32  
Blogger William said...

Dodo said

"Naturally,,and in accordance with my Roman Catholic faith, I should also add that I do not believe any Christian can administer Baptism, unless an emergency arises."

How does an unauthorised Christian gain authority in such an emergency?

19 November 2011 at 22:34  
Blogger English Viking said...


You are wasting your breath. imm

19 November 2011 at 22:51  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


No - now you're putting words in my mouth.

The Holy Spirit is available to each and everyone of us through the Grace, the gift of faith, and the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation - outward signs of inward Grace.

Remember the scripture cited earlier about spiritual Gifts and Grace? God gives each of us a part in the Body of the Church - its not ours to usurp. Bishops, Priests and Deacons, in my belief, have special authority and duties received in an unbroken line through Apostolic succession from Christ.

The days of prophesy have been with us since Christ when His Kingdom was established. Personal revelations I believe have to be authenticated by the Church because, as we know, Satan is also on the prowl.

Baptism in exceptional circumstances is permissible because the authority for this is acknowledged by the Church aas one's Christian duty.

Where do you stand on these issues?

19 November 2011 at 22:56  
Blogger The Judicious Hooker said...

Dodo at 19 November 2011 11:06

Dear Dodo

I am familiar with Fatima and respect the children's witness even under extreme pressure from church authorities to repudiate the visions. Akita is far less appealing and crying statues only appeal to those of Italianate sensibilities, not those of Anglo-Celtic heritage.

St Paul's admonition to the church, sorry ecclesial community in Galatia, cautions us in accepting a different gospel, even if delivered by 'an angel from heaven' (Gal 1:8). I place these 'visions' in this category and see the mesages as a serious disjunct from Christ's essential message: "Repent and believe the Gospel".

I experience deep unease that the BVM's purported message to humanity is to pray the Rosary and do reparation, ie practise a mediaeval devotional exercise composed to replace the recitation of the 150 Psalms because lay people could not read and offer up this devotion to make up for the sins of the world.

Christ has offered 'the one, perfect, sufficient sacrifice, oblation and satisfaction for the sins of the whole world'. We can neither add to it nor take away from it; it is perfect! Reparation is unnecessary and verging on sacrilegious. We can only accept the inestimable benefit of his sacrifice in faith and humility and endeavour to follow Christ as his true disciples (to paraphrase HG's collect for Easter II).

Additionally, your description of Protestantism as pure chaos over against the unassailable uniformity and unity of RRC is not in keeping with reality. The RRC due to its supra-national structure and top heavy theocratic administration has multifarious stresses and strains. Operating opaquely, it tries to hide its inner workings, giving them an illusory air of the supernatural.

Other churches, sorry ecclesial communities, are more upfront. They exercise power collegially and involve the majority of the baptised, ie the laity, in church leadership and decisions. Yes, this is messy, flawed and human, but that's what the church looks like this side of the Eschaton but somehow God's grace breaks through.

While I admire your tenacity to defend your church, I suggest you take a look at the serious trouble the RCC is in (rifts between progressives and traditionalists, declining number/ageing of clergy, widespread disillusionment in former strongholds like Spain and Ireland, universal disregard of Magisterium teaching especially on artificial birth control and sexual ethics).

Triumphalism is unappealing, especially from adherents of the RCC whose history as an institution is so, let us say, chequered. That the RCC still attempts to invalidate and supplant ecclesial communities of both the Eastern and Western Christian tradition show us how Rome's chief goal is institutional survival, not the service of the Gospel of Christ.

20 November 2011 at 07:24  
Blogger len said...

Farage is totally right.Why are our lives being controlled by a few unelected men in Europe?.

This makes a mockery for all those who gave their lives defending our independence and right to self govern.Our freedom has been surrendered by unscrupulous politicians.How on Earth has this been allowed to happen?.

The European Union has been set up with the intention of building a European Superstate right from the beginning and this has been achieved by deception.Greece is an example they are now' locked in'and cannot come out.
And the suggestion of a referendum was quickly stamped out.As was our referendum in the UK.There will be no referendums unless we are going to make the 'right choice'.

Democracy is dead(in the EU at least)

20 November 2011 at 08:58  
Blogger Di said...


The Lord said, "Feed my sheep". Theological argument only feeds giraffes.

To illustrate, I offer a little poem wot I wrote entitled, "My Mum Got Healed". Here it is:-

"My Mum Got Healed":
Redactional analysis
Won't heal an arthritic
Thank God He sent His only Son
And not a higher critic.

The theological arguments above, gripping as they obviously appear to you fellows, are way, way off topic and as such they should be considered spam.

There are boards elesewhere devoted to your intertests. This one is about Nigel Farage's recent speech.

20 November 2011 at 09:05  
Blogger bluedog said...

Brilliant, Di. Some communicants seem utterly oblivious of the history being made in Rome and in othe EU cities, rather than in the Vatican City, Rome.

20 November 2011 at 09:29  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

Cromwell was a murdering shit.
The RC church was and is full of murdering shits.
And ... there isn't a sky fairy.

Grow up you lot!

20 November 2011 at 09:41  
Blogger bluedog said...

Masterly, Mr Tingey @ 0941 - some exceptional insights.

Their relevance to Mr Farage and the impending euro-doom?

20 November 2011 at 10:14  
Blogger The Judicious Hooker said...

Di at 20 November 2011 09:05


If you don't enjoy the digressions, deviations and circumlocutions, in which His Grace's communicants indulge, then don't read the comments.

The comments are more or less on target and follow a certain logic - sometimes known only to the commenters. And they are more or less civil and, most often than not, charitable.

Do remember that the revivified 64th Lord Archbishop of Canterbury would excommunicate those who peeved him overly so we can only assume that he tolerates the politico-religious and religio-political banter that his postings provoke.

Those born under the Tudors understood how religion and politics were woven together and HG's communicants occupy that space and mindset.

Spam, indeed!

20 November 2011 at 10:21  
Blogger William said...


I would say that I agree with much of the general comments of The Judicious Hooker @ 07:24. I do not comment re the visions though.

You said

"Remember the scripture cited earlier about spiritual Gifts and Grace? God gives each of us a part in the Body of the Church - its not ours to usurp. Bishops, Priests and Deacons, in my belief, have special authority and duties received in an unbroken line through Apostolic succession from Christ.

The days of prophesy have been with us since Christ when His Kingdom was established. Personal revelations I believe have to be authenticated by the Church because, as we know, Satan is also on the prowl."

Satan is indeed on the prowl and is more than capable of placing his own within the echelons of the Roman Catholic hierarchy of Bishops, Priests and Deacons (e.g. paedophile priests and their removal (lack of)). Therefore, I can only conclude that the Roman Catholic Hierarchy is, at least, as susceptible to corruption as any other man-made organisation. I also cannot find any reason to conclude that the Pope is Christ's representative on Earth.

I also believe that the Spirit of Truth ("But when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself: but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak. And the things that are to come, he shall show you.") is for all of us. We must all work together with our different gifts (1 Cor 12) in our Christian fellowship towards the great commission that Jesus has given to all of us. We cannot do this without His authority.

The difference is I think that you would point people to the authority of the Roman Catholic church (assuming that Jesus has handed over His authority to the Pope). Whereas I would point them to Jesus because He is still with us:

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

with apologies to other communicants and HG if this thread has been hijacked.

Go Nigel!

20 November 2011 at 11:30  
Blogger Oswin said...

The Judicious Hooker @ 07:24:

Excepting a minor quibble or two, I must say that I enjoyed your piece; beautifully written, a pleasure to read.

20 November 2011 at 13:50  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

Judicious Hooker said ...

" ... your description of Protestantism as pure chaos over against the unassailable uniformity and unity of RRC is not in keeping with reality."

Er, I said the former, not the latter. The protestant sects are most certainly in chaos. Some in Germany and Holland are even 'teaching' that Christ was not the Son of God, may not have been crucified and did not rise from the dead!

My point is that left to the 'spirit filled' interpretation of individuals the heresies from the early church have come back with a vengence. And without some form of church discipline, as in the Church of England, ministers can preach very much as they want - and do. Decicing on Truth by way of a democratic vote at Synods is also a little suspect.

"I suggest you take a look at the serious trouble the RCC is in (rifts between progressives and traditionalists, declining number/ageing of clergy, widespread disillusionment in former strongholds like Spain and Ireland, universal disregard of Magisterium teaching especially on artificial birth control and sexual ethics)."

Yes, indeed. It is a human organisation and can expect to be assailed by Satan. In fact, wouldn't the Catholic Church be his prime target?

A lot of error appears to have entered the Catholic Church and there is an internal division between 'traditionalists' and 'liberals'. Interestingly, some put this down to a move towards protestant theology and liturgy. However, should Bishops disregard the authority of the church there are mechanisms in place to tackle this. Similarly, if lay members wilfully disredard church teachings on morals, then they are doing so knowingly and cannot claim their priests sanctioned this.

The secular and atheistic nature of Western Europe is not helped by a Christian division and neither is it helped by individuals 'teaching' their own versions of God's message.

20 November 2011 at 14:39  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo: ''....protestant sects are most certainly in chaos......teaching that Christ was not the Son of God, may not have been crucified and did not rise from the dead!''

Just like several early Christian sects too eh?

The point is Dodo, just what IS the important message? Is it Christ's message; or a set of other factors, that may, or may not be true, according to the belief of others?

Mind you, I don't know of any sect that believes that Christ was not crucified; but there are several traditions that believe that HE survived crucifixion, as I'm sure you are aware. Having survived, then how, perforce, the ressurection?

If Christ 'suffered' for, but did not die, for our salvation, then how does this change Christ's message?

I ask out of interest Dodo, and would welcome your answer. I'm genuinely not attempting to bait you. Is Christ's message, THE central tenet of Christianity, or not?

20 November 2011 at 15:56  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

Christ's "message" was His words and His actions. He "walked the talk" in modern parlance.

The essential Christian message as I understand it:

Jesus of Nazareth was not a social philantropist but the Son of God, a Person of the Triune God made flesh, who came to show His love for mankind and to release us through His propitiatory sacrifice and ressurection from the grip of the sin of the Fall and from the power of Satan.

You take or leave the whole message if you claim to be a Christian.

20 November 2011 at 16:21  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo ta; I personally wouldn't disagree with any of that, excepting that you don't actually mention anything concerning Christ's teachings, but I presume that you do so include?

One point though, re' your last sentence: it has to be the whole message? You are saying that if one were to believe that Christ suffered crucifixion for us, but did not die of that crucifixion, then one could not/would not be a Christian; even if one lived one's life according to the word of Christ?

20 November 2011 at 16:39  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo, my apologies, please ignore the second part of my first paragraph; you do indeed answer to that.

20 November 2011 at 16:40  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

Not sure where you're taking this. As I said, I am not an expert but accepting the death of Christ is essential if one is to call oneself a Christian.

Christ's death follows from God's condemnation of Adam that resulted in death as a consequence of disobedience. Jesus' death and ressurection opened the door to everlasting life as fully adopted Sons of God for all those who unite themselves with Him . It was an act of supreme love and sacrifice to undo original sin.

The whole of the Old Testement foreshadows this in its sacrificial system of religion - although the full meaning was only revealed through Christ.

20 November 2011 at 17:49  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Judicious Hooker,
It was the freemason mayor of Fatima who threatened the Fatima children not the Church authorities. He kidnapped the children (aged 7, 8 and 10) and put them in prison with hardened criminals. He it was who threatened them with death if they would not change their story but they remained consistent throughout – miracle in itself considering their ages. However they were so entranced with her beauty they would have died for her. The Church authorities as was right and proper took a wait and see attitude until events unfolded. However, contrary to your statement, the message of Fatima was “Return to God”. Our Lady said that wars are the result of men’s sinfulness and that unless people amend their lives there would be a second even worse world war. She predicted that the errors of communism would spread throughout the world and in the third secret appears to predict the killing of a pope – very possibly Benedict. The vision of Akita also says that the sins of mankind are leading to a great chastisement which is exactly what Jesus predicted so I don’t see how you claim they lead us away from Jesus. We also have to remember that Almighty God chooses his own way to speak, sometimes through illiterate peasant children and sometimes in other ways such as the stigmata of St. Francis or Padre Pio. Those of us who are educated and of an Anglo-Celtic heritage may not be inclined to accept some types of message but we should not let our intelligence or personal disposition cause us to reject something without considering if it is credible. The Rosary for example asks us to meditate on the events of Christ life – what’s wrong with that. Yes the Catholic Church does have problems and internal divisions - no different from Protestantism except that Protestantism began breaking up immediately after it was formed and is still hugely divided. Your comment about triumphalism is not justified. If I may refer you to the initial movement of Anglican priests into the Catholic Church some years ago, it was very clear that the Catholic Church made a very great effort to avoid the sin of triumphalism but we see plenty of triumphalism in certain Protestant quarters when they rejoice in their efforts to discriminate and denigrate Catholics. Having said that, it is clear that that there is actually a bond of genuine friendship between Catholics and Protestants today and it is only the few extremists who perpetuate the hatred. Bearing in mind the threat of Islam, we should not be kindling the fires of hatred among ourselves.

20 November 2011 at 18:16  
Blogger non mouse said...

I see the commentariat on this site is receiving attention on Twitter, and I note His Grace's response of a few moments ago.

I'm among those who follow the path advocated by Mr. Hooker at 10:24... on scrolling past the diversions. I hasten to add, of course, that I've long appreciated contributions from Mr. Len, and never imagined him to be a spammer!

20 November 2011 at 18:24  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

The Inspector remembers his Carmelite education. Our Blessed Lady Mary ‘intercedes’ on behalf of humanity, and is not herself the attention of idol worship, at least not in the Latin Church.

20 November 2011 at 18:32  
Blogger English Viking said...


Your blessed lady is a dead, stinking, rotten corpse.

I've seen a few, but I'll admit I've not seen her.

Nevertheless, dead she is.

20 November 2011 at 19:01  
Blogger English Viking said...


Do you think she squealed when Joseph took her? Again and again and again?

Do you think they did not giggle, like couples do, when they ... well, you know.

Immaculate? Nei, nei, nei.

20 November 2011 at 19:05  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Viking. I say old chap, that’s the mother of Jesus you’re talking about ! Just so you know, you know, what ! Well really....

20 November 2011 at 19:08  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

You will come to regret those comments, in this life or the next. Trust me on that.

20 November 2011 at 19:16  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Viking. Delete those comments while you still have life in those viking bones to do it, then fall on your knees. Save yourself man. Serious business, you know, invoking God's wrath...

20 November 2011 at 19:19  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope.

To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.

Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!


20 November 2011 at 20:05  
Blogger Oswin said...

English Viking: what next; flinging your own dung, like a chimp?

21 November 2011 at 01:59  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

Make up your tiny deluded minds, you lot!

Apart from "Dodo's Way" and his demented wibblings about the unmarried mother Mary, who was undoubtedly normally sexually impreganted by ... (Pharoah's son? / Herod's son?) ... erm...

You can't BOTH support Cromwell, a truly christian "leader" who really DID have a "war on christmas" AND support the RC church with its separate programme of torture and oppression.

Time to join the real world...

21 November 2011 at 08:34  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

My God, if Jesus Christ knew what he had started I think he may have stuck to carpentry.

At least the Catholics on here are clinging to some sanity/rationality but Blofeld and Ien...

But, then again, I guess they would be crazy mullahs or belly button fluff worshippers if not CofE or somesuch.

The human condition eh?

21 November 2011 at 13:17  
Blogger Preacher said...

Well the usual ding dong twixt the protagonists, more heat than light I'm afraid gents, but entertaining anyway.
Welcome back E.V.

Re: Mr Farage, hands off Avi, He's ours. Or will be as soon as we can elect him as P.M.
Brilliant to see those hypocritical, power hungry thieves looking like guilty schoolboys standing in front of the head teacher. ROFL. More PLEASE!!! Dr Cranmer.

21 November 2011 at 13:49  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Got it, Mr Preacher, don't mean to poach on your turf....respect! But we're Commonwealth, practically cousins, and you can make more Mr Farages, whereas our climate here doesn't seem to favour the blunt and articulate type.

21 November 2011 at 22:37  
Blogger Preacher said...

No probs bro'. If only we still HAD a commonwealth instead of these unelected bandits, But I'm afraid it's a well paid junkyard for Downing street rejects & has beens.
If you can lure Mr Farage as the new Canuk PM I'll Emigrate & buy us both a beer & a Canadian Smoked Salmon Bagel.


22 November 2011 at 18:10  
Blogger English Viking said...


Deleting them will not make God forget I said them.

I apologise for my hyperbole, which was gratuitously offensive, used to make the following points I wholeheartedly believe to true.

1. Mary is dead.

2. She was not immaculate after bearing at least 6 children for Joseph.

3. Praying to dead people is forbidden in scripture.

Once again my apologies for being vulgar and coarse. I shall attempt to refrain in future.

22 November 2011 at 20:20  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Viking. Understood. To be a Christian, we must accept that the soul continues after death. The immaculate part of Mary was her conception of Christ, other than that, she would have had all the experiences of a woman, including seeing her own son crucified. In the Catholic church, Mary is venerated as being an essential of God’s plan. Protestantism is all the poorer for not accepting that, in this papist’s opinion...

Your humble servant, sir.

22 November 2011 at 21:20  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

It takes a man to apologise and I'm sure God will understand you meant no insult to Mary but your comments reflected your anger with Roman Catholic doctrine.

However, as the Inspector so wonderfully understated Mary we can all agree is a unique woman and played a very special role in mankind's redemption.

As you know, Roman Catholic doctrine holds she was Immaculate throughout her life and was Assummed into Heaven. We differ on this and there is no direct scriptural support for these beliefs but in our differences let's not abuse the mother of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, Son of God and Person of the Triune God.

22 November 2011 at 21:56  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Would you agree that our Blessed Mary would have experienced all what a women could expect, including other children. Remember that just because it wasn't mentioned in the gospels doesn’t mean it may not have happened...

22 November 2011 at 22:57  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

No, most certainly not! There is some amgiguity in the Gospels about whether Jesus had brothers and it is a source of contention with some protestants. However, the clear dogma of the Church, to which we are obliged to give internal consent, is the perpetual virginity and impecability of Mary. Anything less, I'm afraid, would be heresy.

22 November 2011 at 23:09  
Blogger English Viking said...


It is mentioned in the Gospels.

Mary had at least 6 more children after Christ.

If you believe the Bible, that is.

Mark 6 v 3.

22 November 2011 at 23:16  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

Remember the Immaculate Conception refers to the wonderful gift of Grace of God given to Mary resulting in her being conceived without free from the stain of original sin.

Throughout her life we believe she retained a special spiritual union with her son, formed from the moment of His supernatual conception and ongoing whilst He was in her womb. This continued throughout her life and after Jesus' death.

Being without original sin and personal sin, it follows she was assumed into Heaven at the end of her earthly life rather than physically corrupting. Whether she suffered physical death remains open theologically.

22 November 2011 at 23:23  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

Viking.Luther accepted Mary's perpetual virginity, did he not?

22 November 2011 at 23:25  
Blogger English Viking said...

OoIG and Dodo,

Matt 1 v 25 is explicit. He 'knew' her. That's KJV, obviously.

If you want The Beano version, it is also clear - consummated. NIV

You'll perhaps forgive me for being a little off colour today; one of my little friends was killed on the road today, and I have taken it rather badly, as she was my favourite.

Utterly gutted. I can feel several bottles of Scotch coming on.

22 November 2011 at 23:29  
Blogger English Viking said...


Luther was an ex-left-footer, who cares what he thought?

What did the Gospels of Matthew and Mark think?

Surely more weight should be attributed to the testimony of first-hand eye-witnesses than that of sausage-munching monks, 1400 years later?

PS Please don't tell me I'm not allowed to be a little rough with Martin because he's some kind of magic saint. You have got some point with Mary, but none with him.

22 November 2011 at 23:35  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

Since the early days of the Church the references to Jesus' brethren, brothers and sisters, is held to refer to cousins, children of Mary, the mother of James and Joses, named in Mark 15:40 and 15:47, a sister of Jesus' mother (John 19:25), making them cousins of Jesus.

A passage supporting the doctrine of perpetual virginity is the sayings of Jesus on the cross. Jesus first said to His mother "Woman, behold your son!" and then to his John "Behold, thy mother!"

The Gospel of John then states that "from that hour the disciple took her unto his own home". Since the time of the Church Fathers this statement has been used to reason that after the death of Jesus there was no one else in the immediate family to look after Mary, and she had to be entrusted to the disciple given that she had no other children.

22 November 2011 at 23:39  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

All Christians are ex-left footers!

22 November 2011 at 23:43  
Blogger English Viking said...


The Greek is explicit, and one could wish for no more a precise a language; brothers and sisters, not cousins.

I need to think about why John should be selected over flesh and blood; that is an entirely new one on me. It is possible that it is because he was born again, and the others were not, although that is pure speculation.

PS I am not now, nor have I ever been, popey, although you probably don't think me Christian.

22 November 2011 at 23:57  
Blogger English Viking said...


I'm off now. I'm afraid that there is not a drop of the good stuff left in the house, and I am reduced to an interview with Mr J Daniels.

Oh well. He'll have to do.

For now at least.

23 November 2011 at 00:06  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

23 November 2011 at 00:11  
Blogger English Viking said...

Oswin, What's next?

Bowing to idols, or lighting candles to them?

I'd rather fling it than eat it.

Isaiah 36 v 12.

23 November 2011 at 00:12  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

Viking, read the texts I've cited and you'll see they are not definitively clear on the Mary whose children they are.

Were any of the Apostles 'born again' prior to Pentecost?

Can I say I have no view concerning whether you are a 'Christian' - apart from being a heretic!

You believe in Christ and you believe in the Gospel message. Given you were a member of the Church of England you will, I surmise, have been baptised and confirmed so will have been released from the grip of original sin. The rest is up to you and how you respond to God.

As you know, I believe being a Christian is a life long process of responding to personal Grace rather than being a one-off event. I also believe it means following the teachings of the Apostolic Church and receiving strength from active membership of the Body of Christ.

23 November 2011 at 00:16  
Blogger English Viking said...


You think because a person is Christened and Confirmed in an Anglican Church (I've been neither) that they are released from original sin?

Good grief, you really have lost it.

BTW Have you heard of 'absolutely null and utterly void'?

Surely you have, and then you must realise that it is thee - thou art the man - that is an heretic, because one cannot possibly be saved outside the cat-lick rot, according to the Pope (In the words of Mandy Rice Davies - 'Well, he would say that, wouldn't he'?

Google her - just be careful.

No more now - Jacky is calling.

23 November 2011 at 00:29  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Nowhere Mungo hilariously stated

"At least the Catholics on here are clinging to some sanity/rationality but Blofeld and Ien...(Yes you chaps believe you do, what?)

But, then again, I guess they would be crazy mullahs or belly button fluff worshippers if not CofE or somesuch.(Or a deluded, unrepentant liar? RC pretending NOT to be multiple persons, what!)

The human condition eh? (Tell Ernst about it, Fruitcake!)

Poor old FishDuck, disingenuous again?

"The Gospel of John then states that "from that hour the disciple took her unto his own home". Since the time of the Church Fathers (WHERE?) this statement has been used to reason that after the death of Jesus there was no one else in the immediate family to look after Mary, and she had to be entrusted to the disciple given that she had no other children."

" John 19:25-27

25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
ALL (Even St Peter..*gasp*) had forsaken Jesus when the soldiers came and arrested Him, but the Holy Spirit had dealt with four people that stood near the foot of the cross. These four people were Mary, the mother of Christ, Mary, the wife of Cleophas, Mary Magdalene, and John, the disciple whom Jesus loved. Jesus was putting Mary under the supervision of John, and instructed him to receive Mary as his own mother. We can also note the perfection of Christ as he made sure his mother would be taken care of. Jesus never made a mistake, and always fulfilled all parts of all laws that weren’t against his Father’s laws."

Also notice what Matthew 12:46-50 reveals.
"46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." Now I would ask you, who did Christ say were his mother and his brethren (brothers)? Verse 50 plainly declares, "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my BROTHER, and SISTER, and MOTHER."

Ernsty Blofeld

ps FishieDuckie

Notice also that Jesus called Mary "woman." Never in the four gospels did Jesus call Mary "mother." Does this fact mean that Jesus didn’t like his mother, or didn’t respect her or the position she was in? No. It meant that Jesus knew there would come a 'religion' that would exalt Mary above the place God put her in, and would lower Jesus from the place God put him in. So Jesus never called his mother "mother," but always called her "woman."OOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH. Who on this earth could that religion be ?:-)

Doctorate of Divinity? Where, Uni of McDonalds? Did you get large fries with it? *Chuckling away at the thought of you in a drive thru picking up your Honor*

23 November 2011 at 00:43  
Blogger English Viking said...

PPS Adagietto from Mahlers 5th, a requiem (no mass, mind) for poor little Petal, gone now, such a lovely thing she was.

23 November 2011 at 00:46  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

FishDuck, with his Divine Ducktorate needs help? "F-A-B", "Full Acknowledgment of Broadcast," Ernsty to the rescue

Part 1

Matt. 13:54-56

54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Christ the "Firstborn"

Did you notice it, FishDuck!

This scripture clearly states that Christ had FOUR brothers, all of them being personally named. The added question, "And his sisters, are they not ALL with us?" implies that He had AT LEAST THREE SISTERS. If He had only two, they would have used the term, "both," instead of "all." Some claim (RC's, obviously to perpetuate PERPETUAL VIRGINITY, perhaps) that these were not really brothers and sisters, only cousins. But Scripture reveals this is NOT TRUE.

Here is the proof, duckie.

The word "brethren" is translated from the Greek word for "brother" -- "adelphos." This word may mean a spiritual brother, but it does not mean "cousin." The English word "cousin" in Luke 1:36 and 58 is translated from "suggenes" in the original Greek. This clearly shows that the New Testament, when referring to Jesus' family, makes them brothers and not cousins.

In Matthew 1:25;

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

We find that Christ is called the "FIRSTBORN" son of Mary. The word "firstborn" is translated from the Greek word, "prototokon" which means the firstborn among other children -- the oldest of several children in a family. If Jesus had been Mary's ONLY child, the Greek word "monogenes," meaning "only child," would have been used in the original Greek text. Jesus was the "only begotten" human son of the Heavenly Father (John 1:18). But He was the "first born" -- not an "only child" -- of Mary!

"Born-Againers Are Go!" (Da da-da-daaah, da-da-da-da, da di-da-da da daaaaaah).

Ernsty FAB Blofeld

23 November 2011 at 01:22  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

FishDuck, with his Divine 'Daffy Ducktorate' needs help? "F-A-B", "Full Acknowledgment of Broadcast," Ernsty to the rescue

part 2

Many other New Testament scriptures tell us distinctly that Jesus Christ was not the only child of His mother. In Galatians 1:18-19, Paul mentioned having seen not only Peter, but also James the Lord's brother in Jerusalem. We know that Paul was speaking of a brother in the flesh. If he had been speaking of a spiritual brother -- a brother in the faith -- he certainly would have included Peter among Christ's spiritual brethren. But he did not! HELLOOO, HELLOOOOO!

Paul knew that Christ had other brothers. He stated: "Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the BRETHREN OF THE LORD, and Cephas [Peter]?" (I Cor. 9:5). Notice that the brethren of the Lord are DISTINCT from the twelve apostles. In Acts 1:13-14 we find that THE DISCIPLES "continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, AND WITH HIS BRETHREN."

Some have, in argument, referred to Matthew 12:46-50 (RC's usually). Here Christ said, "Whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." They have claimed this scripture as proof that when the Bible speaks of Christ's brethren, it means spiritual brethren. They claim therefore that He may not have had any brothers in the flesh.

Such an argument is without a sure foundation. If this scripture proved that Christ had no brothers or sisters, IT WOULD ALSO PROVE THAT HE HAD NO MOTHER.
What Christ meant in this statement is that those who OBEY THE FATHER are all equally precious in His sight, regardless of blood relationship.

Anyone who earnestly believes that the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God, CANNOT fail to see these facts. These scriptures definitely PROVE -- absolutely -- that Jesus Christ did have brothers and sisters who were the children of His mother. Their father was Joseph. Joseph was the legal, not actual, father of Jesus. This means that Jesus and His brothers and sisters had the same mother, but not the same father.

The question we now must answer is this: Are we willing to TOTALLY SUBMIT ourselves to God and accept HIS DIVINE WORD as Truth? or would we rather believe the edict of paganistic religion who want to deify a woman by claiming her as a PERPETUAL VIRGIN? The doctrine of "perpetual virginity" is the teaching of rank heathenism and heresy and UNBIBLICAL.

According to the Bible, Jesus' physical mother led a normal married life and bore Joseph, her husband, several children after the birth of Jesus Christ.

Any other doctrine is a fable. Simples *squeak*

Ernst 'If there's a pest in your nest, I'll remove it with zest' Blofeld

23 November 2011 at 01:32  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


Go tell it on the mountain!

1500 years of pre-reformation understanding tells it differently as do the majority of biblical scholars today. But no Ernsty knows best.

So on march the crazies left of stage! Do they have some form of sixth sense that picks up on when Catholics discuss their faith? The "spirit of the air" perhaps? No doubt len will arrive shortly.

Time for bed.

23 November 2011 at 01:32  
Blogger English Viking said...

ESB and T entirely correct with his Greek.

The only way to dispute these matters is with extra-biblical sources, and what use are they, if they contradict without proof?

BTW Jack is rubbish; little better than Toilet-Duck.

23 November 2011 at 01:38  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...

Just a thought before bedtime.

Have you ever considerd He called her "woman" on the Cross because she was the Second Eve, just as He was the Second Adam? When Mary said "Yes" to God's messenger she made possible the birth of Jesus the Christ. Or did she have no free will?

No Mary, no Jesus, no salvation.

23 November 2011 at 01:45  
Blogger Dodo's Way said...


I repeat:

"Since the early days of the Church the references to Jesus' brethren, brothers and sisters, is held to refer to cousins, children of Mary, the mother of James and Joses, named in Mark 15:40 and 15:47, a sister of Jesus' mother (John 19:25), making them cousins of Jesus."

Accepted by Luther,accepted by Zwingli, not contradicted by Knox, accepted by Anglicans (in the main) accepted by the Orthodox Church.

Not accepted by those who maliciously and mendatiously claim Roman Catholics 'worship' Mary and who are on some sort of obsessive crusade against the Church.

23 November 2011 at 01:56  
Blogger English Viking said...


Esther 4 v 14.

If Mary had refused, a replacement would have been found.


Mary is blessed above all women; she took her chance. So did Esther.

We do not know the names of those who were looked over, and declined.

23 November 2011 at 02:28  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

FishDuck, the ducktorate holder sneaked
Just a thought before bedtime.

Have you ever considerd He called her "woman" on the Cross because she was the Second Eve, just as He was the Second Adam? When Mary said "Yes" to God's messenger she made possible the birth of Jesus the Christ. Or did she have no free will?

No Mary, no Jesus, no salvation."


NO! That stupid thought never entered Ernst's noggin. Why? Because he reads Holy Scripture not stupid philosophical arguments to justify a stupid religious proposition!

It's called an 'Omniscient Deity' - Having total knowledge; knowing everything:.
Shssh..I tell you a secret about omniscience and free will..It's called a tautology and this argument just moves the debate up another level–does God will things because they are possible or are they possible because God wills them as in Mary's case?
Consider Jonah. Because God sends Jonah with the message that Nineveh will be destroyed, but then, when Nineveh repents, he shows mercy, many people say that God did not know the Ninevites would have such a reaction. Yet why should this be the case, Duckie?

Isn’t it plausible that God did know they would repent and that God sent the message that they would be destroyed because that is the only way Nineveh would be led to repentance? This is, in fact, hinted at later in the book, when Jonah says to God, (Jonah 4:2) “2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.” .

But if God had told the Ninevites “I will not destroy you” because he knew that he would not, would not the impetus of Jonah’s message lose its strength.
With the threat of destruction, the Ninevites repented. But without, would they have done so? Imagine Jonah’s message going through the streets “Forty more days and Nineveh will not be destroyed!” (God was also dealing with Jonah as well and the story is a lesson for all of us!)
Ernst seriously thinks it obvious that this would probably not have the same effect that the initial message was to have.
A Tautology that free will worked in unison with Omniscience!

What on earth did you get that Ducktorate in?
Recipes that compliment roasted duck?



Accepted by Luther,accepted by Zwingli, not contradicted by Knox, accepted by Anglicans (in the main) accepted by the Orthodox Church. If so, SO WHAT? One minute Luther said she had sin, the next she didn't, then she did. She should be venerated as queen of heaven but not prayed to..! A very confused fella indeed, who could not shake off the chains of rome fully perhaps..(BUT MOST DEFINITELY NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE SO UNBIBLICAL!!!)It's called extra-biblical sources..NOT found in the Holy Bible! So the sources quoted are WRONG if this is what they believed!

Not accepted by those who maliciously and mendatiously (the eternal victims, are you not, if questioned?) claim Roman Catholics 'worship' Mary and who are on some sort of obsessive crusade against the Church. (Read yours and others posts here on this blog..YOU BLATANTLY WORSHIP MARY. What a chancer you are!)

23 November 2011 at 02:46  

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