Thursday, November 10, 2011

Politicians fiddle, Rome burns, people die, Jesus weeps


As Italian bonds rise past the 'unsustainable' 7 per cent barrier (the level which ended democracy in Ireland and Greece), the contagion is indeed about to spread to Spain and France, just as His Grace foresaw months and months ago. PIIGS was the acronym, though the chronology will be IGIPS. It’s not rocket science, is it? This economics lark is as simple as running a grocery shop, as Margaret Roberts once learned at the feet of her alderman father. If more cash is going out than is coming in, you will run out. If you borrow and can’t repay your debt, you are bust. Simples. Italy’s debt stands at €1.9 trillion. They will need €362 billion next year merely to service their debt. They haven’t got it. The ECB is now busily swallowing chunks of that debt (with no jam) and it is all down to Germany to save monetary and (so we are told) European union.

What is the point? The whole enterprise is the product of political hubris and vanity. EU politicians have spent months assuring us that the bailouts are working. We, of course, knew otherwise. The PIIGS governments will never be able to repay their debts at 7 per cent interest. But still the pathetic dance goes on, with the occasional absurd interjection from a scurvy politician twittering on about ‘market morality’, whatever that is.

Pope Benedict XVI observed a few years ago that the global financial crisis ‘shows the futility of money and ambition’. He said: ‘He who builds only on visible and tangible things like success, career and money builds the house of his life on sand. We are now seeing, in the collapse of major banks, that money vanishes, it is nothing.’ And he added: ‘The only solid reality is the Word of God’.

Amen to that.

As the Mammon trinity of the IMF, EU and ECB struggle to keep the euro on life support, it is time to face facts: the patient is dead. The more they now try to intervene, the higher the risk of weakening the currency and causing an increase in interest rates, with all the consequent unemployment, recession, inflation and increased poverty. This is a profoundly moral issue, for people are reduced to hardship and depression, firms are condemned to closure, more workers to unemployment and more families to homelessness through unprecedented levels of repossession. The total number of Irish suicides, Greek heart attacks, Italian divorces and Portuguese mental breakdowns will never be known. The élite pontificate and the people die. But you don’t hear much about the poor, the oppressed, and the underdogs.

God demands conscience above political conviction, and a government which places narrow economic considerations above life, liberty and justice is guilty of worshipping Mammon above God.

We have now come fact-to-face with what Pope Benedict referred to as the ‘Godless character of modern culture’, with the warning that ‘Nations once rich in faith and vocations are losing their own identity under the harmful and destructive influence of a certain modern culture. There are those that, having decided that “God is dead” declare themselves “god”, believing themselves to be the only creator of their own fate, the absolute owner of the world. When men proclaim themselves absolute owners of themselves and the only masters of creation, are they really going to be able to construct a society where freedom, justice and peace reign?

‘Is it not more likely — as demonstrated by news headlines every day — that the arbitrary rule of power, selfish interests, injustice and exploitation, and violence in all its forms, will extend their grip?’

A prescient pope knows more about human nature and the laws of economics than any politician or economist. The introduction of the euro artificially decreased the interest rates of many EU members countries, in particular those with a weak currency. The countries who benefited the most from this decrease were Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, and Italy.

And which countries are now carrying insupportable debt and suffering intolerable deficits?

Just to fulfil the vacuous dream of being at ‘the heart of Europe’.

And, bizarrely, while Ireland, Greece and Italy now struggle to survive amidst public sector strikes, austerity measures including pay freezes, tax hikes and extensions to the official retirement age, soaring unemployment and civil unrest, Tony Blair still believes the UK should ultimately join the euro.

This is one political ‘never’ the people should shout from the rooftops. Blair talks of the need for a secure foundation – the rock of EU-wide economic governance. The single currency was built on sand: it was destined to founder without political union, which will now arise.

But remove from a nation the right to set its own interest rates to suit its own domestic economy, and in times of turmoil it is left either to tinker with taxation or slash spending. Since the people are not particularly disposed either to high rates of taxation or to cuts in their public services, disquiet turns into protests; protests become marches; marches become riots; riots become social turmoil.

And social turmoil slips into civil war, which is precisely what looms.

Never forget that the EU’s answer to the EU’s problems is invariably ‘more Europe’: every crisis is an opportunity for more regulation and centralisation. And the sovereign debt crisis that threatens to engulf European financial markets is no exception. The eurozone will be stabilised economically in accordance with Bundesbank discipline and bound politically by Teutonic politico-militarism. The German constitutional court would have it no other way. The outcome will be 10 nations intent upon political union. The currency will be the euromark. Just get on with it before more people die.

89 Comments:

Blogger Gnostic said...

Supernatural entities have nothing to do with this steaming pile of political and moneterist excrement, Your Grace. Unfettered human greed and stupidity on the other hand...

10 November 2011 at 08:36  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

Especially the stupidity.

Meanwhile one might like to look at Articles 5, 27 & 30 of the proposed ESM, supposed to replace the EFSF.
A real tyrrany.
Prince Paul Metternich would have loved it!

10 November 2011 at 08:46  
Blogger James Reade said...

Of course, completely ignored here is that the problems Italy face are absolutely nothing to do with the euro. They haven't grown in a decade and hence, surprise surprise their debt as a ratio to GDP has increased unsustainably. They are like any other country, like Iceland, say, that messed up. Bemoan the removal of democracy they will have, but you also hypocritically always talk about reaping what one sows. That's what's happening here so why do you seem so critical of it?

And of course, economics is dead simple. Those of us that do it are just getting money for old rope. Thinking about the implications of billions of optimising agents interacting in market places, easy as pie that stuff.

10 November 2011 at 09:26  
Blogger James Reade said...

It's also worth pointing out the proud Archbishop, smug after his mindblowing predictions regarding the PIGS. Because nobody else saw that one coming, did they?

I'll just point you to the Book of James, which you'll no doubt be very familiar with. It has a few bits in there about boasting.

10 November 2011 at 09:28  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Just what the hell do we in the UK have in common with the likes of Greece, Bulgaria or Romania that we should lash our selves to the masts of their particular ships of misfortune?

It truly is 'the world turned upside down'

10 November 2011 at 09:48  
Blogger bluedog said...

Heartening indeed, Your Grace, to learn that your communicant Mr James Reade is an economics expert.

This communicant is reminded of a definition of 'expert' that he once read, where 'X' is the unknown factor and spurt is a drip under pressure.

On to more serious matters, it seems that the Euromark prediction is spot on. Will it all be over by Christmas? And will the Americans arrive two or three years too late? Fortunately it seems from comments by former German Foreign Minister Joske Fischer that Great Britain is not wanted for the next part of the EU project. He prabably means some of us can think for ourselves.

Time for some splendid isolation while Europe tears itself apart.

10 November 2011 at 09:52  
Blogger Peter Jackson said...

This is the awful dilemma facing the Greeks and Italians, though I warn you, YG, it is not for the squeamish:

http://wwwcrierinthewilderness.blogspot.com/2011/11/between-rock-and-hard-place.html

10 November 2011 at 09:59  
Blogger Shacklefree said...

Religions, even those that are heretical, generally teach that there can only be one law. Jesus mentioned that we cannot serve two masters and that we should follow the narrow path. This implies that stability and order cannot be brought about by following different philosophies at the same time. All that results from such an approach is schizophrenia and for nations that inevitably causes major suffering for the normal person. Your Grace has pointed out the unfortunate truth that those who prefer lies will continue following their myths even when common sense stares them in the face. We have seen how the complete failure of sex education in secondary schools to stem the epidemic of teenage pregnancies has not led to a rethink but to suggestions we should teach primary kids, even in the early stages, how to use condoms.

The same is true of this financial crisis. Now we have the great and mighty telling us that Europe should continue to pour its money to waste on a doomed project much as Norman Lamont was doing on the European Exchange Rate Mechanism not so many years ago and losing us millions a day. Talk about the blind leading the blind. Some years ago, the Soviet Union tried to defeat the West financially using the money markets. They failed but now they are on the verge of success. The monied powers that set up the Communist system in Russia are still with us and now we have China as their flagship. If this European project is enabled to survive it appears that this will come at the price of a much impoverished Europe and the prospect of a New World Order under the powers that control Communism will be ever closer. They say that money makes the world go round but as time goes on we find that money doesn’t go around very freely but is tightly controlled by a very powerful elite. The prospects for a free, stable and happy world are not good. There is only one solution and that is to place our nation under the protection of the Lord Jesus and to follow one philosophy instead of trying to have inconsistent and contradictory laws.

10 November 2011 at 10:03  
Blogger Hereward said...

Its too late YG, out of control with no one at the helm. Germany is going to have a job to "circle the wagons" around a euromark. Smaller nations like Holland and Austria dont seem too keen on the idea. When the FrancoGermanic bully is on the floor the timid feel brave enough to put the boot in.

And nice one Silvio. Your unrivalled and unique abilities have ensured the downfall of the Empire. Once it was unified by a dream, now it is held together by a thread. Fear of the consquences of failure.

"Thou art Euro and on this Euro I will build Europe." said Pedro Solbes the Spanish Finance Minister. What arrogance, What folly. In one hour its doom has come.

10 November 2011 at 10:42  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

I should point out that there have been no public sector strikes or civil unrest in Ireland. Well, not yet anyway.

10 November 2011 at 11:15  
Blogger niconoclast said...

It is the height of intellectual dishonesty and frankly an arrant smear to conflate EU corruption with Capitalism albeit coded euphemistically as Mammon.A rational universe of Capitalism would not have got us into this mess.The answer to irrational behaviour is not do nothing and wait for some supernatural intervention.The answer is (duh) rational behaviour.

10 November 2011 at 11:21  
Blogger The Gray Monk said...

YG, I suspect the lovely Angela and her Minister of Finance, Hr Schäuble, have a plan up their sleeves which will preserve the German economy and allow the rest to vanish if it comes to the shove. It might even involve a "Neumark" and you can be certain that Hr Scäuble will make sure anyone wanting to join it will have to meet far more stringent conditions than those required of Greece or Italy when they joined the €uro ...

Sadly I have to agree that demonstrations generally lead to riots and that leads to civil unrest and eventually to civil war. Greece may be on the brink, Italy? I'm not so sure, the Dons of the Mafia run the south and the industrialists run the north. The southern peasantry do as they're told. Ironic is it not, that the rapacious self interest of the Roman nobility destroyed their empire, now another Roman seems to be on the brink of destroying its modern equivalent.

I will not weep to see Brussels go, or indeed, Strasbourg. I will miss the freedom of movement we have enjoyed in the Union and the freedom from having to pay rapacious bank "fees" for changing my money from one currency to another...

Much as I hate to admit it, the Pope is right, our present society is founded on making money, making more money, succeeding at all costs - and bugger morality.

10 November 2011 at 11:47  
Blogger Jon said...

The paragraph "When men proclaim themselves absolute owners of themselves and the only masters of creation, are they really going to be able to construct a society where freedom, justice and peace reign?" is disturbing.

When men were subject to the will of the Popes (who were the infallible representatives of the almighty) and their appointed monarchs, I don't think there was a great deal of concern about freedom, peace and justice from the overlords?!

This looks like the Pope desperately searching for relevance in a world which is ignoring his sagacious advice. He is getting column inches for his views on the coat tails of a story to which he really has no bearing. He's basically Vince Cable in a frock...

10 November 2011 at 12:02  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

Amen to that Cranmer. And an even more hearty Amen to the bold declarations of Pope Benedict, "The only solid reality is the Word of God". Oh that the Archdruid of Canterbury would say the same instead of spouting on about Tobin taxes.

But with the spiritually blind leading the morally bankrupt all we can expect is more of the same. It's the economic equivalent of the sex-educationalists whose only mantra is "more & sooner". It will invariably lead to our "glorious & illustrious leaders" demanding a single world currency with a single unifying figure-head. Remember where you heard it first!

10 November 2011 at 12:11  
Blogger Rebel Saint said...

I've only just read Shackle Free's comment. Obviously a case of great minds thinking alike!

10 November 2011 at 12:18  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

bluedog said...

"Heartening indeed, Your Grace, to learn that your communicant Mr James Reade is an economics expert."

Dear woof woof, you beat Ernsty to it.
Of course these plonkers (Economist-Masters of the Cosmos) have forgot their strapline that "There is no problem the market can create that the market cannot solve !" It appears it involves throwing lots of taxpayers money at it and the market will tell us when enough is enough!
The boastful blind leading the bled dry?

Our cocksure economics communicant (Aren't they always!) blurts "And of course, economics is dead simple. Those of us that do it are just getting money for old rope."

Ernst has a damned better idea of how to put that 'old rope' to good use, if Mr Reade and his ilk would like to step forward.

Ernst Blofeld

10 November 2011 at 12:39  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

"This looks like the Pope desperately searching for relevance in a world which is ignoring his sagacious advice." (Jon)

Sidebar - as unconsious irony goes, this ranks pretty high.

What everybody forgets about the Church (sometimes including the Church itself) is that it's supposed to be at war with a rotten world, and it's weapons are probity and virtue. When it gets too embedded in the so-called 'real world', those weapons become tarnished and blunted. For myself, I'm pretty glad to finally have a pope who remembers that Christ came not with peace but a sword to set sons against fathers and daughters against mothers. It doesn't matter how numerically small or 'irrelevent' to the 'real world' that the Church then becomes - so long as it does that, it's fulfilling its mission and the rest is in God's hands. Try to remember that, Jon. You're judging from an incorrect starting point.

10 November 2011 at 13:30  
Blogger Oswin said...

bluedog@09:52 :

How I've prayed for ''splendid isolation'' - but we have yet to run the gauntlet of the ensuing chaos; indeed, crawling and limping, rather than running. Add to that a blindfold and, stripped of our chemise, bare-arsed we blunder into the unknown.

Being an optimist, and a true-blue believer in our nation, I know we will win-through; but it's going to be a damnably bloody affair.

God help us all!

10 November 2011 at 13:48  
Blogger Anglican said...

One of the most sagacious commentators on our present economic, cultural and moral woes is the Chief Rabbi, Jonathan Sacks. Two of his recent and most relevant articles are in The Times (if you can get hold of them): "China is reversing the decline and fall of Christianity" (21 May 2011) - not just about China, but mainly about the West; and "Wait twenty minutes before eating the marshmallow" (22 October 2011). Both are extremely perspicacious about our present discontents.

10 November 2011 at 15:58  
Blogger Oswin said...

Hm, the last time the Chinese had a bash at (a sort of) Christianity, twenty million-plus people died. Let's hope they get it right this time around.

10 November 2011 at 16:28  
Blogger Berserker said...

I cannot wait to be on the margins of Europe (Clegg) but I bet we will still pay the EU our £44 million a day.

Italy is a very difficult problem. It should not be. They have a motor and lorry industry, machine tools, fashion, chemical etc but car production has been steadily decreasing for the last eight years. A severe problem (forgetting the usual public sector spendfritherie) is the cost of importing fuels. They have very little of their own. Italy is after all the largest importer of electricity in the world. It is no help to them that they have in the South a large mafia dominated area with a black economy.

Consumerism is dying so It is not a lot of use, ours and Euro politicards saying how important growth is and that we must create new jobs, especially in manufacturing if we can't sell the damned stuff anyway.

Dave has been on his worldly jaunts recently to try to drum up business outside of Europe. He should keep doing it.

10 November 2011 at 17:17  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Beginning to wonder if this £ 44 million a day is appeasement money !

10 November 2011 at 17:58  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Berserker said wisely

"It is no help to them that they have in the South a large mafia dominated area with a black economy.
" You have stated the exact reason that Italy is in the problem it is..

It is not only this regarding the south but that the north must continually bail it out with benefits, for the southern italians to then hand a large portion of it to the mafia as 'Skim'.

How can you get growth when it is so corrupt. Oobatz.

Ernst

ps

Looks like EU hierarchy have "Made Silvio an offer he can't refuse." Bada Bing.

WV dobailout (brilliant!)

10 November 2011 at 18:31  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Greetings Blofeld, the Inspector agrees with you on this occasion....

10 November 2011 at 18:38  
Blogger Preacher said...

I wonder what the next step will be?. It seems to me that there are a mixture of Euro M.P's, Iron & Clay?, on the one hand we have the plasticine politicians, the Little Shop of Horrors Like Blair, with an insatiable hunger for power & wealth. They strut the stage & pose as statesmen, "Feed Me" is their cry. They are just the warm up boys. But behind them lurks the Iron part of the mix, the feet with a clay Achilles heel. The Real Stars, Sinister figures that lurk in the dark, they already have their script, They know the story & have prepared the stage.

At the end of October, before the 'Italian Job' we read here a leak of the story, a suggestion of how far Ms Merkel & other high rollers were prepared to go, if their plan of World domination was in danger.

Far fetched fantasy?, perhaps. But IF the remaining members of the EU Morph into a Ten Nation state, I for one will be watching & waiting for Daniel 2:31-45. It will be messy, but the Grand Finale will be Breathtaking.

10 November 2011 at 19:15  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

One must agree with the central themes of the post. Capitalism has run away with itself and Europe's weaker nations drank from the trough. What now? Britain has traditionally kept France and Germany apart and stopped them running the continent. Let's wait and see who comes out of this struggle on top.

Oswin said...
"Hm, the last time the Chinese had a bash at (a sort of) Christianity, twenty million-plus people died. Let's hope they get it right this time around.

And that was the greatest tragedy in the history of China - and dark times for the world. Why, oh why, didn't the Congregationalists and assorted protestant groups leave China to the 'Company'? They, at least, understood the country and it's culture.

10 November 2011 at 19:34  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Fear not men – it’s not as bad as the cold war when all we had was a 4 minute warning of oblivion. Just hard times ahead, we’ll get by....

(Might be an idea to stock on on tinned food though)

10 November 2011 at 19:48  
Blogger Preacher said...

Dodo.
True, but the persecuted church in China which was forced underground by Communism is now reckoned to be one of the largest & strongest in the World.
The same thing happened in Russia & many other countries where it's members faced persecution, prison & worse.
From the earliest times the same has been true, the Ceasers tried to stamp it out, but failed.
It seems that We flourish under pressure. A bit like coal turning into Diamonds really.

10 November 2011 at 20:19  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Preacher, agreed but China's early history suggests that Christianity divided confuses, is weak and vulnerable. It suggests too that exposure to the Gospel without teaching and leadership leaves people open to individual 'visionaries' who may not be inspired by Christ.

Let us pray China embraces Christianity. At heart they are a powerfully spiritual people.

10 November 2011 at 20:50  
Blogger Preacher said...

Dodo.
Perhaps the Chinese & others are blessed that they have not been caught up in the middle of the struggle between different religious groups all vying for supremacy & in fighting between themselves.
When it was just 'The Way' it was a lot easier. I've found the good Shepherd looks after every single lamb.
Often the Chinese church only had half a page of the Bible for years, but the Holy Spirit undertook for their tuition & when the Western missionaries were allowed back, they were amazed at the maturity of the believers & demonstration of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
We all have to admit that we all can sometimes be more of a hindrance than a help. A lot of the time what God made perfect, we mess up.
Have a look at some of the new contemporary testimony books about the Underground Chinese church, I know you will be blessed.

10 November 2011 at 21:25  
Blogger bluedog said...

Your Grace, a brief return, if it so pleases you, to the theme of an earlier post on immigration, border controls and related matters.

Your communicant stumbled perchance upon the fact that the output of British farmers is insufficient to feed the British population (well, he knew that anyway but had forgotten). So if push comes to shove, and world trade collapses, communicants who never learned to grow water-cress on blotting paper when at school are going to go hungry.

The alternative is rationing, which leads to a black market. The better solution would be to shrink the population. In this regard, communicant Mr James Reade, he of the economic expertise, would surely applaud the use of the principle of Last in, First out.

10 November 2011 at 21:41  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Preacher
I believe the Holy Spirit was at work in China before the arrival of Christianity. And denominational division is the Enemy's best asset to obstruct The Way. The Christian Church has been present in China continually since the the 16th century and, God willing, will grow stronger.

10 November 2011 at 21:57  
Blogger Preacher said...

Dodo.
Amen. Be Blessed.

Thanks to Dr Cranmer for his patience & forebearance in allowing us to diversify slightly.

God Bless All. Preacher.

10 November 2011 at 22:06  
Blogger Anoneumouse said...

ἐδάκρυσεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς

It's all Greek to me

10 November 2011 at 22:13  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 November 2011 at 22:23  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector

A cat falls in a pond and a rooster laughts.

What's the moral of the story?

10 November 2011 at 22:25  
Blogger English Viking said...

a

11 November 2011 at 00:31  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

Please ignore the above.

Please don't be beastly to cats; it merely confirms my prejudices about cat-licks.

I think the moral of your story is that fat chickens ought not laugh at wet cats, because when the cat dries out, he's going to open a whole load of whupp'ass on you.

11 November 2011 at 00:36  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

bluedog: "The better solution would be to shrink the population. In this regard, communicant Mr James Reade, he of the economic expertise, would surely applaud the use of the principle of Last in, First out."

That's a bit harsh. Where would you send all these newborns and young children?

11 November 2011 at 05:13  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...

Pope Benedict however has backed an ECONOMIC WORLD GOVERNMENT AND CURRENCY!

What on earth would that be but the eurozone write large?

Of course, it must be lonely being a Pope when you haven't got an Emperor to talk too and two hierarchies, one claiming universal spiritual jurisdiction, one economic, has a certain symmetry.

We have learned that politicians are just as greedy as bankers, so who would run the World authority - a chum of Dominique Strauss Kahn, a Chinese Communist ideologue? It would not be safe to entrust such power to an Archangel!

So, yes, I think that Pope Benedict has some true and valuable insights into the economic situation as influenced by Original Sin but the authoritarian (indeed totalitarian) nature of his office and mind set make me glad it no longer has any temporal power. "The Bishop of Rome hath no jurisdiction in this Realm" . Amen, Amen!

11 November 2011 at 09:09  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr DanJO @ a brisk 05.03 asks 'Where would you send all these newborns and young children?'

Answer: School.

There to learn the rudiments of Christian belief by signing 'Onward Christian Soldiers', 'There is a green Hill faraway' and 'All things Bright and Beautiful'.

11 November 2011 at 09:39  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Viking, welcome.

It's merely an allegorical tale with a bit of a 'naughty' message. The sort of thing that I know will appeal to the Inspector but it might offend the more delicate sensibilities of you and your evangelist brethen.

Think about it.

A cat falls in a pond and a rooster laughts.

11 November 2011 at 13:03  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Mr Spaldon

Your mindset about the Vicar of Christ is noted but aren't we heading in the direction of world financial 'governance' anyway? Capitalism is global and the economies of the world are interconnected.

How do you want to see this system run? On pure 'free market' liberalism, trusting a mysterious 'invisible hand' to ensure things work out okay? On a universal 'brotherhood of man' basis, relying on a godless false religion? Or on institutions founded on Christian and biblical principles?

11 November 2011 at 13:16  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...

Dear Dodo,

I think that any world-controlling organisation, staffed by mortal fallible men, would inevitably turn into the most hideous tyranny. The very thought turns my attention to the Book of Revelation.

Until 1991 NATO was a good example of a
limited INTERnational organisation for the sole purpose of self defence in a geographical area. It worked. But it has turned itself into a hideously aggressive SUPRAnational organisation of open-ended ambitions for "humanitarian" attacks anywhere.

We know that all SUPRAnational organisations from the Olympic Games to the UN are hideously corrupt - so why bother trying to invent new and more powerful ones? They are quite beyond any possibility of being held to account. An untidy mix of national sovereignties is far preferable. Paradoxically, only local sovereignties can control supra national corporations and agencies in their own small corners.

As we see in the EU, NAFTA and elsewhere, the administrators and politicians are only too keen to give the corporates free rein - privatising any profits and perks but passing their losses on to the tax payers who have no redress. The supposed regulators and the plunderers are two sides of the same bad penny.

That is not capitalism at all in the Adam Smith sense but corporatism, the basis of fascism and it has gone viral and supranational.

11 November 2011 at 14:03  
Blogger William said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

11 November 2011 at 14:34  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Mr Spalton

I don't disagree and the behaviour of the Roman Catholic Church 500 years ago supports your position. I can reassure you though that the Vatican in the 21st century is not the same organisation and does understand the need for a separation between Church and State.

I wasn't recommending any shape or particular form of governance, just saying it is inevitable. There will be a 'new world order', indeed, there already is, as you point out. We're not going to go back to simpler times of small property owners, small business with insulated and sovereign nation states. Unless, that is, some sort of 'Mad Max' scenario unfolds.

The world is a small stage, growing smaller by the day, and it's dominated by very big, very greedy and some very evil actors. Should you read Daniel and Revelation do consider the 'Empires' of today and not yesterday.

11 November 2011 at 14:41  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...

Dear William and Way of the Dodo,

1. William I don't think that even the Medieval papacy at its height ever claimed infallibility in temporal matters. It did however give its seal of approval to some thoroughly disreputable types. The Normans were the rather muscular yuppies of their day and were give a specially blessed banner to rip us off.

2. Dodo - The present Pope was a great buddy of the late Otto von Habsburg and a member or supporter of his Pan Europa movement. A Lutheran German journalist friend of mine headed his article on the advent of Benedict XVI "Habemus Europam!"

Now Otto von Habsburg was a personally charming and civilised man but I do remember his vigorous advocacy of bombarding Belgrade - malice aforethought long matured. The Papacy assisted the Croatian leader Franjo Tudjman (quote "Genocide is a natural phenomenon..not only commended but commanded by the Almighty in defence of the One True Faith")

So I hae ma doots.

I have seen several supposedly irrefutable truisms bite the dust in my lifetime. One was the "progress" trick. "All progress means change. This is change. Therefore this is progress" and any remaining opponent could always be accused of "standing in the way of progress".

Globalism and its supposed inevitability has had a good run but the forthcoming demise of the euro and the EU with it (if Angela Merkel is correct) will slow that and possibly reverse it. After all, what is the point of having very cheap clothing and all our textile industry out of work? I think we will need a little protectionism -some hedges and ditches around society and industry - but not overdone, I hope.

Like the inevitable-seeming triumph of "scientific socialism" - once an idea loses its momentum and sense of inevitability, people turn away from it because it is no longer "on the side of history"..

11 November 2011 at 15:03  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Mr Spaldon

So you'll tell that to the international financiers and multi-national companies, will you?

As for your comment on the current Pope, well, I'd sooner not respond too fully. The supposedly Germanic ultra-nationalistic intent, with hints of world wide facism, of Benedict is fueled by gossip and unworthy sentiments.

11 November 2011 at 15:48  
Blogger Edward Spalton said...

POPE BENEDICT XV on the globalism of his day in the Encyclical Bonum Sane

"The coming of a world state is longed for by all the worst and most distorted elements. This state, based on the absolute equality of men and a community of possessions, would banish all national loyalties. In it no acknowledgement would be made of the father over his children or of God over human society. If these ideals are put into practice there will inevitably follow a reign of unheard-of terror".

For more PLEASE go to
www.eureferendum.blogspot.com and look at the guest post article
"The tax the unelected are desperate to have" which is concerned with the whole idea of a global financial order.

11 November 2011 at 15:50  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo: I've only just caught on to your cat/rooster allusion. Did you get that from your copy of the ''Junior Jesuit Joke Book''? Dirty boy!

11 November 2011 at 16:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. The Inspector is flabbergasted that you would even consider publishing the answer to that filthy riddle on this site !

11 November 2011 at 18:20  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector, I am ashamed of myself but is it really filthy? I wouldn't dream of publishing the answer!

Oswin, no! I'd be thrown out! I heard it years ago at an Irish wake! Lay Catholics and many priests have a sense of humour about somber matters. Dave Allen and Father Ted were compulsive viewing.

11 November 2011 at 19:24  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Mr Spalton
Yes, but my point is that it is already with us in embryonic form and the forces driving it are unlikely to wane but grow stronger.

How to live within this and maximise Christian influence is the issue. I for one do not want a secular, atheist, 'brotherhood of man' world order with unrestrained power.

Some of this lies behind the views of the Benedict XVI and the foreign policy of the Vatican.

11 November 2011 at 19:32  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Ps
The quotes from documents of the Popes cited are not infallible as they do not touch on issues of doctrine or faith.

I would also point out Benedict XVI referred to a family of nations. Now,I don't know about your family, but mine isn't ruled Mafiaosa style by a Don! Benedict is posing questions about how we look after one another in this world where great wealth and poverty co-exist and where some nations cannot progress economically because of a lack of social justice.

Not unreasonable.

11 November 2011 at 19:42  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. but is it really filthy?. Don’t think Digitalnun would be over impressed...

11 November 2011 at 20:42  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector, I'd never offend a nun by saying such a thing in front of her! I do have some manners. But really filthy?

Even if it is, it is funny!

11 November 2011 at 22:23  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Agreed Dodo. The Inspector’s advice to ladies is laugh until you dry up. Then when that happens, laugh again...

11 November 2011 at 23:01  
Blogger Oswin said...

Not so much ''filthy'' as ever so slightly 'pervy'... I guess it's just the way you tell it Dodo.

Any self-respecting nun would skelp yer lug my lad! On the whole, I have a great respect for nuns; unlike you troublesome Jesuits...

11 November 2011 at 23:05  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Oswin, pervy? Oh for goodness sake, get over yourself! Maybe if you're homosexual you might find it distasteful - or 'exclusive'!

Actually, I may just put the 'story' on the notice board in my office. Of course I'd expand it into a little tale. Wonder if anybody would spot it!

12 November 2011 at 00:35  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector, not very good advice to offer a woman.

Wonder where the 'born-againers' are tonight? The Calvanists and assorted other protestants are out and about but Ernsty and weatsop must be playing in the manure heap with tiddles.

12 November 2011 at 00:53  
Blogger Oswin said...

Hey Dodo lad, you've just cheered me up. YOU advising others to 'get over themselves' - what a hoot! :o)

12 November 2011 at 02:02  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Put your tin hat on, looks like a Calvinist led reformed church takeover happening on this site ! The RCs have lost their position. Len surfaced next thread up. Something about being ‘born again’. He’s picking and choosing who’s eligible for salvation. Hope God appreciates the help !

12 November 2011 at 11:59  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector

Sama old, same old from len and assorted others. They really do have a very negative view of God and the power of His saving grace.

12 November 2011 at 12:05  
Blogger len said...

I think partaking of religion(especially a works based one) is somewhat akin to having one`s brain removed.

Dodo and the Inspector are prime examples.

12 November 2011 at 12:55  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector, I think it best to ignore len.

Lapsed Catholics, in my experience, cannot be persuaded through reason and we have to leave them to God's mercy and His grace. They construct a false picture of the truth they have turned their backs on to justify their loss of faith.

12 November 2011 at 14:38  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. EVERYONE ignores Len. Lapsed Catholic is he ? Not that the Inspector gives a f...

12 November 2011 at 14:56  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Inspector

Now, now. He is our brother and we should pray for him. I believe he is a lapsed Catholic but don't know for certain. That or a former High Anglican.

12 November 2011 at 15:27  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Apologies Dodo. Will light a candle for him – he’d like that !

12 November 2011 at 16:56  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

That'll depend on where you put it after lighting it Inspector!

12 November 2011 at 22:31  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

You wicked bird !

12 November 2011 at 23:04  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

I know but I just can't resist the temptation. Must stop having these unchristian thoughts. They set a bad example.

12 November 2011 at 23:38  
Blogger Oswin said...

A bit late for that Dodo; you've long since displayed your plumage.

13 November 2011 at 02:06  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Oswin

It's never too late. That's the whole point!

13 November 2011 at 12:26  
Blogger Oswin said...

Glib, but not wholly convincing...

13 November 2011 at 17:01  
Blogger len said...

Dodo and the Inspector,

Just when I think you cannot sink any lower you go and prove me wrong!.

You shouln`t go to such lengths to prove me right every time ( that religion hasn`t the power to change anyone!)

13 November 2011 at 18:17  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

'Religion'

1. A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. A specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects.

3. The body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices.

4. The life or state of a monk, nun, etc.

5. The practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

(Dictionary.com)

Some people confuse their terms and the different definitions. For example, an exclusive reliance on the individual interpretation of scripture is as 'religious' as following specific practices of more organised belief systems of faith. All beliefs about God and the origin and meaning of life, no matter how diverse, are 'religious' beliefs when held by a group. Similarly, any shared set of fundamental beliefs about how to express faith amongst adherents, also constitute a 'religion'.

To be on one's own in holding onto a set of beliefs different from others is either to be a 'heretic', an apostate, irreligious or a 'prophet' with a unique and God given revelation.

So lets be clear, the various sects and cults within protestantism, and there are many, are as much religions as the more orthodox and traditional churches.

13 November 2011 at 20:16  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

len
You are correct, of course, but somehow you succeed in bringing out the worst in me. Now why is that, I wonder, and do you have the same effect on others when you 'evangelise' them too?

So personal apologies for any offence. Lesson learned and time to move on.

13 November 2011 at 20:23  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, I have repeated this several times, my contention is never with the Catholic people but with Catholic theology.
I believe it is my duty to present(and defend ) the Gospel as given to us by Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul.
I find it sad when the discussion degenerates into personal attacks and I apologise if you feel provoked . This is not my intention.I also realise there is much wrong with Protestantism and do not defend any practices that are unbiblical within Protestantism.

All the best.

14 November 2011 at 08:12  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Amen - but understand I will never leave uncorrected blasphemous and heretical statements made against the Roman Catholic Church which is, afterall, made up of Catholic people.

14 November 2011 at 13:28  
Blogger William said...

Mr Dodo said

"Amen - but understand I will never leave uncorrected blasphemous and heretical statements made against the Roman Catholic Church which is, afterall, made up of Catholic people."

and on another thread

"I do not respond to blatant blasphemy and apostasy. We know the source of these - the father of all lies and deceit."

Mr Dodo might I suggest that you take a blog-holiday for a few days? Your wires appear to be getting crossed. Not surprising given your omnipresent, spider-like existence amongst the comment threads of this blog. I am sure that the ardour of your Roman Catholicism is appreciated by some of your brethren, but I suspect not all.

14 November 2011 at 15:46  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

William

Contradictory I agree but I've decided not to engage with one particular blogger. Just a futile exercise. I should have replied to him personally and said I wouldn't engage with him in the debate he was persisting with.

14 November 2011 at 23:01  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"I should have replied to him personally and said I wouldn't engage with him in the debate he was persisting with."

At this point, do I get to say he's running rings around you and you're doing that because your position is untenable? ;)

15 November 2011 at 07:53  
Blogger len said...

Dodo,

Do you know what the charge brought against Jesus by the Pharisees was?

(Of course I an not comparing myself to Jesus ,but the charge against born again believers seem to be very similar)

15 November 2011 at 08:23  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Some people just want to be mischievouse.

Others want to persist in a circular argument and do have grandious ideas about themselves and see themselves as modern day saints and messiahs.

For my part, I've said what I have to say on this subject to the particular people concerned.

15 November 2011 at 09:23  
Blogger len said...

Acts 9:32 (Peter) "that he also came down to the saints who dwelt in Lydda."
2 Cor. 13:13 "All the saints greet you."
Eph. 1:1 " To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ."
2 Cor 1:1 "To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia" Phil. 1:1 "To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi"
Col. 1:2 "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse"

(If your not a SAINT when your alive, then your certainly AIN'T when your dead.)

15 November 2011 at 20:26  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

Albert said ...

"I think the key thing is what is meant by justification. In Catholicism, in justification, God actually makes a person righteous, by the power of his grace, on account of their faith. In Protestantism, justification does not make someone righteous, rather on account of their faith, God counts them as being righteous, even when they are not."

And of course St Peter and St Paul were referring to members of the one, univeral Church of Christ.

15 November 2011 at 21:59  
Blogger len said...

The Word 'Church' does not appear in the Bible!.
The Word properly translated is 'ekklesia'.
This Word'Ekklesia '(and the true meaning of) robs the organised Church of its 'authority'so translaters were forbidden from using it!. If you profess to follow Christ, then it's time you quit voluntarily feeding the religious/Political/ anti-Christ beast. Men who want to sincerely follow Christ must wean themselves from worldly governments and churches. It is the height of absurdity for a Christian to attend and support the very institutions which are destroying his relationship with God. Those who voluntarily support man-made religious church systems, by believing and teaching that they are good in any way, or that they help us, or that we need them, are still living in a dream world of deception. The ekklesia system, with it's Theocratic government and individual responsibility, is capable of freeing us from the bodage of religion. True peace and liberty cannot be found outside of Christ. Christ's system is the ekklesia system. Freedom awaits all those who will break away from the religious slavery of church and become a humble bondslave of Jesus Christ. We must stop idolizing men in their religious hypocrisy and let Christ once and for all be our King!

16 November 2011 at 08:15  
Blogger The Way of the Dodo said...

The Greek term ἐκκλησία that in the New Testament is usually translated as "church" basically means "assembly".

In the New Testament the term ἐκκλησία (church or assembly) is used for local communities and in a universal sense to mean all believers.

The four distinctive marks or attributes of God's assembly or church are that it is: one, holy, catholic and apostolic.

It is both a visible structure and an invisible reality. The mystical Body of Christ on earth.

An assembly or church indicates a community of believers, not individuals going it alone and making it up as they go along.

16 November 2011 at 16:55  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, Why then has the Catholic Church replaced the Head of the Body which is Christ with its 'own man' namely the Pope?

20 November 2011 at 20:20  

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