Monday, December 19, 2011

Church of England warns of ‘disastrous’ EU policy

There is more than a little tension at the moment between Lambeth Palace and No10. So when the Church of England’s ‘Europe spokesman’ in the House of Lords is critical of the Prime Minister’s negotiating style in the European Council, it’s a fair bet that the Archbishop of Canterbury has given the nod. The Bishop of Guildford, the Rt Revd Christopher Hill, who chairs the House of Bishops’ Europe Panel, said: “In the long term, it will be disastrous if we were actually isolated from the rest of Europe, economically and in terms of international relations... We are part of Europe, culturally and historically.”

We are, to coin a phrase, associated with Europe but not absorbed. Perhaps Bishop Christopher has forgotten his history, not least because ‘in the long term’ it was very much in Britain’s interest to be isolated from ‘the rest of Europe’. Our economic might and global influence came as a direct consequence of the Reformation: it was the Protestant faith and a Reformed Church which permitted England to run her affairs, without recourse to Rome. Thomas Cromwell drafted the fairly decisive Statute of Appeals which established this: ‘An Act that the appeals in such cases as have been used to be pursued to the See of Rome shall not be from henceforth had nor used but within this realm’.

We are certainly ‘part of Europe, culturally and historically’, and yet we are apart. The Bishop’s Supreme Governor wears the Crown, and Parliament governs in her name. Of course, by virtue of her EU citizenship, she is subject to foreign courts and so no longer sovereign. But what Parliament can give away, it can reassert.

The Bishop said that the European struc¬tures had been ‘created for peace’ after the ‘major wars in the 20th century’. He acknowledged: “The structures need reform and accountability, but you don’t do that by stepping out; you do that by keeping in step with Europe.”

O dear. There is something spiritually, economically and politically naive about this ‘keeping in step with Europe’. It is as though Europe is the way, the truth and the life: all things were made by it, and without it was not anything made which was made.

Both the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church are pathologically predisposed to bouts of Europhilia, sometimes verging on Eurotica. They’ve got Europe Panels, Europe spokesmen and Bishops’ Conferences, all ostensibly concerned with the ‘Soul of Europe’ to ‘encourage the religious communities to present projects meetings, seminars social activities...; to contribute to the recognition and understanding of the ethical and spiritual dimension of European unification and Politics’.

Daniel Hannan MEP observed a few years ago:
As regular readers of this blog will know, one of my own recurrent themes is that the EU always pits the top brass against the Poor Bloody Infantry. This is true of the CBI, the TUC, the NFU, most political parties and, for that matter, most churches. I'll never forget walking past my local parish church in 1992 and seeing, among the prayers being posted, one for "the Maastricht Treaty and peace in Europe".
It is time for lay members of both churches to object to this obsessive europhiliac nonsense. Britain is not ‘isolated’: it would not be ‘disastrous’ if we were to leave the EU altogether. It is not for the Shepherds of the Church to instil fear into their flocks. And neither is it their task to help re-create the Empire of Charlemagne.

70 Comments:

Blogger Owl said...

YG, excellently put.

Sometimes I wonder where these people take their authority to speak in the name of others.

Perhaps they are "Beyond Authority". I must check with Julia about this.

19 December 2011 at 10:41  
Blogger Belsay Bugle said...

The bishop has forgotten that the Church of England owes its existence to England being 'isolated from Europe'.

19 December 2011 at 11:01  
Blogger graham wood said...

"Both the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church are pathologically predisposed to bouts of Europhilia, sometimes verging on Eurotica."

Agree with Owl. Very good summary of the sad and inconsistent position of the RC and C of E churches.

It is perhaps necessary for their leaders to be reminded that Jesus never aligned himself with any political party, movement, or ideology. Even less would he be in sympathy with these naive churches and their aslignment with the EU political project.
The church is supposed to be the agent of God's mission on earth, and specifically the Gospel of Christ. That mission is incompatible with support for the wholly secular and anti-Christian, and deeply arrogant claims of the EU to have power and control over nation states and the consciences of peoples in Europe.
Specifically challenging to such churches are the words : "My kingdom is NOT of this world".
Need more be said?

19 December 2011 at 11:07  
Blogger Stuart Cunliffe said...

Well said.

19 December 2011 at 11:14  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

"Our economic might and global influence came as a direct consequence of the Reformation: it was the Protestant faith and a Reformed Church which permitted England to run her affairs, without recourse to Rome."

I dunno. You had recourse to Rome as long as Rome was telling you what you wanted to hear. Do you really think the Empire will reappear if you all start going to Church of England services?

19 December 2011 at 11:15  
Blogger TheBigPurpleOne said...

In Europe but not of Europe!!

Unfortunately it is the same old story of bending over backwards to appear rational and liberal.

One does wonder how long it will dawn on people that to be truly pro-European is to be eurosceptic.

Why is Lambeth Palace not sickened by the lack of democracy and xenophobia that so evidently stalks the EU's corridors of power?

19 December 2011 at 11:27  
Blogger Theo said...

Don't these theologians understand that it was God himself who created the nations - this is implicit if not explicit all the way through the OT. The EU is an attempt to dissemble the work of God's hand and if only for that reason the Church should be resisting all the blandishments of politicians, whether at home or abroad.

The brilliant speech of Lord Sacks posted by HG only days ago should also be a reminder against the evils of socialism of which the EU is a major proponent. Do these bishops not listen to the wisdom of scripture or are they too busy being impressed by their own secular "wisdom".

It is interesting to reflect that most of them were appointed under New Labour and this perhaps reflects the political stance they take - they are wedded to socialism heresy rather than the Word of God.

I will continue to pray for their enlightenment.

19 December 2011 at 11:58  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

There is nothing particularly egalitarian or democratic about (what is today called ) liberalism. After all, a 'progressive' by definition believes in the moral progression of man. One very necessary implication of this belief is that certain men have progressed farther than other men. It is only logical and right that those of an advanced moral disposition should have more influence than those with a regressive moral disposition. But how does this vanguard of the masses assume its rightful position of leadership when the masses don't want to be lead?

There is an inherent distrust on the Left of democratic nation-states. They tend to instantiate particular and parochial concerns that offend the leftist ear. And so the Left seeks to submerge them in supranational organizations that can be safely controlled. It is the means by which the Progressive hopes to live out his dream of shaping the moral development of man according to his own progressive light. He must have power to accomplish this task, and that power must be isolated from the reactionary masses that would seek to interfere in the service of their reactionary understandings.

The progressive is not enamored with parliaments and legislatures. He is enamored with courts and commissariats. The later have the power to impose his will without appeal. All done for the greater good of course. The masses will thank them in the end.

carl

19 December 2011 at 12:37  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

"Eurotic" he-he-he. Nice one YG

19 December 2011 at 12:48  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
The Rt Revd Christopher Hill said “In the long term, it will be disastrous if we were actually isolated from the rest of Europe, economically and in terms of international relations... We are part of Europe, culturally and historically.”
This is, as you put it, a very presumptive statement. Britain is isolated from Europe both physically and spiritually. Always have been and always should be. Obviously our nation has been influenced by the invasions from the continent but the mix with the locals has created a very special species that is distinctly different from all of the current European nationalities.
It is a shame that the C of E seems to be the only denomination that achieves governmental influence. The NON C of E and RC churches probably have more adherents, particularly the emerging African churches. From my experience of contact with these groups, there is an undoubted desire to be free from the shackles of the undemocratic legislation over lifestyle and so called Human Rights that legislate against more people than for.
Veering slightly, as I type I am listening to the arguments surrounding Nick Clegg’s criticism of tax breaks for married couples on Radio 2. An unmarried contributor tried to argue that it was perfectly acceptable for all sorts of alternate family groups such as gay couples, single parents and unmarried couples to bring up children. Fortunately, Melanie Philips from the Mail spoke on the value of marriage and that statistics prove that married couple are less likely to split than unmarried couples. And as for gay parents, it is beyond my understanding how anyone can believe that it is OK for children to grow up in such an unbalanced unit.
This is not too far from the thread of discussion as I believe that there is a strong influence from Europe in this area and the myth of this needs to be dispelled. The C of E does not seem to have a consistent or any policy on this.

19 December 2011 at 13:02  
Blogger DAD said...

All of you repeat after me 100 times...

The European Union is NOT Europe.

Again! and again!

19 December 2011 at 14:45  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

Owl, I suspect you are correct. This person is yet another mole, burrowing away in the fabric of our nation, and bent on doing us as much harm as they can. I hope someone is making a note of his name, for when the backlash finally begins.

19 December 2011 at 14:51  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Sorry DAD; The majority of the European land mass is governed by the European Union.
If that Union was to completely break up, the member countries would still be part of Europe. So what is your point as I don’t have time to do my ‘lines’ at the moment.

19 December 2011 at 14:53  
Blogger Berserker said...

Basically, a Liberal is a man who believes in liberty and the essential goodness of man. Poor chump!

Liberals attacked George Bush for signing The Patriot Act but all has been silence on the fact that Obama has not rescinded it. In fact this Spring he signed an extension of it.

Hobbes argued that drastic limitations on liberty can be justified. Ha! ha!

How do they equate their obsequious belief in the EU with the notion that the State should be as fragmented as possible?

No ideology has a more malleable and dangerous truth than Liberalism. Have your cake and eat it, then allow someone to make you vomit the food out. Wow! that's freedom.

19 December 2011 at 14:54  
Blogger Anglican said...

The Church of England hierarchy is largely made up of the Liberal Democratic party at prayer. And as that party is led by Nick Clegg, who is an a..... No, that can't possibly be right can it?

19 December 2011 at 15:49  
Blogger Marcus said...

Yes, peace in Europe is essential, but that doesn't mean just accepting whatever you're told. If it did who knows what would have happened in WWII.

At the moment the continental EU needs to sort out its affairs and the UK needs to sort out hers. They both need to do it in very different ways and so it actually helps if we can work on things separately at the moment.

I think it says it all that the most successful countries are those in the EFTA and not the EU.

19 December 2011 at 16:21  
Blogger Oswin said...

Whatever happened to 'huntin', shootin' and fishin' vicars? How many of them 'boxed' as amateurs; or were athletes; or indeed, proper scholars, capable of both faith and thought?

Milk-sop liberals abound, as weakly eccentric adjuncts to the 'chattering classes' - they are such 'feebloid' bloodless ninnies!

Thank the Lord for the few military Padres; the rest of the sorry lot would be the better for a wiff of grapeshot!

Twirls one's mustachios, 'harrumphs' and departs...

19 December 2011 at 16:53  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Mr Integrity said...
"The majority of the European land mass is governed by the European Union."

I dunno ... grammar and spelling the other night and now geography!

The EU started essentially as a Western European body. Now it's spreading eastwards into Central Europe. Eastern Europe, in the main, remains governed by Russia. Turkey, to the south, is quite sizable too.

Mr ABC said ...
"It is time for lay members of both churches to object to this obsessive europhiliac nonsense."

I think you've over done the hyperbole here! Funnily enough I can't actually recall hearing any Sunday sermon on the EU or seeing any Papal Encyclicals on it. What's there to object to - really? Catholics are free to form their opinion on the matter and do.

19 December 2011 at 17:29  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Outrageous what ! Less cosying up to Islam and less busying yourself with the EU, Church of England !

19 December 2011 at 17:36  
Blogger Albert said...

I'm not all that bothered about what Christopher Hill thinks about Europe. It won't make any difference to anything or anyone. What's much more serious is what Nick Clegg is saying about marriage. The only annoyance for me therefore about this, is that if Hill is talking about Europe, he isn't defending marriage and family life.

19 December 2011 at 18:07  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

The bishop’s a blithering idiot. We were not isolated from Europe before we joined the then Common Market and we won’t be isolated when we leave. How the hell did someone so stupid become a bishop?

19 December 2011 at 18:11  
Blogger uk Fred said...

When I read such drivel, I am glad that I repented of my folly in joining this half-baked apology for a Church called the church of England and I thank God that I no longer a member. Not only does it have a warped thelogy, it has bishops who are incapable of realizing the importance of real democracy. But them, as a bishop he will be used to telling others to shut up and listen because, like Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe, he is the one man present with the one vote. It is a shame that there is none like Jenny Geddes still around to pick up her stool and throw it at the preacher when he talks drivel. I always knew that there was an advantage in removing pews and replacing them with individual seats. Now I can see what that advantage is.

19 December 2011 at 19:00  
Blogger William said...

Nice to see a Bishop of the CoE parroting the veiled (and not so veiled) threats emanating from Europe. Fills one with seasonal cheer! Let's hope for some Christmas cheer soon.

19 December 2011 at 19:00  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Dodo; You just can't leave it alone can you. Is it your purpose to drive away everyone from commentating on this sites main subject, who doesn’t fit in with your distracted way of thinking? I am going to give you the accolade of being the most opinionated but intelligent contributor, even if you are from Ireland. Meanwhile, there is an eastern Europe as opposed to a central Europe. Or am I wrong on that as well?

19 December 2011 at 19:37  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

uk Fred
I'm not so sure Mr ABC would agree with you about Jenny Geddes!

19 December 2011 at 19:40  
Blogger Youthpasta said...

Sadly this, as with Parliament's actions, shows how little they care for true democracy and more about what they think is right for the people.

If a referendum on the EU were held tomorrow I am pretty sure the answer would be for us to leave but the current government don't care that their electors want this and neither, it would seem, does the Church that is supposed to be FOR the people of this land.

I doubt this moronic position will change any time in the near future, sadly, because I also think that those who hold influence are also pro-EU and thus will not promote those who are against, both in government and in the Church.

We can but pray for saner thoughts to take control, but I am sceptical at best!

19 December 2011 at 19:48  
Blogger Sean Baggaley said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

19 December 2011 at 20:48  
Blogger Sean Baggaley said...

@Mr Integrity:

You state: "An unmarried contributor tried to argue that it was perfectly acceptable for all sorts of alternate family groups such as gay couples, single parents and unmarried couples to bring up children."

I see no problem with this point. It is perfectly acceptable for all sorts of alternate family groups to raise children. The Western "ideal" of a nuclear family is not universal.

History is also full of the bastard progeny of peasants, nobles, and even monarchs. ("Droit de seigneur", anyone?) Such children may have been raised by their mothers, fostered to another couple, or any of a number of alternatives, but being raised by both their own parents was rarely an option.

You then continue thus: "Fortunately, Melanie Philips from the Mail"—it is at precisely this point that your argument takes a flying leap off the nearest cliff of logic—"spoke on the value of marriage and that statistics prove that married couple are less likely to split than unmarried couples."

That'd be because divorce costs money! That's a hell of an incentive to just tough it out compared to the alternatives available to non-married pairings.

Until you're married, you can just walk away; no questions asked. You may have to pay for child support, but that's about it. A divorce could wipe out half your income at a stroke. For life.


"And as for gay parents, it is beyond my understanding how anyone can believe that it is OK for children to grow up in such an unbalanced unit."

You, sir, need to read up on your history. Until very recently, it was considered a criminal act to even admit to being homosexual.

Given that, even today, it's not unheard-of for a husband (or wife) of many years to confess to being a homosexual, care to bet on how often such pairings occurred throughout history? Just because a man and a woman procreated, it is not a given that both are, or were, heterosexual.

Many of our modern notions of love and romance are mere social inventions; it is a mistake to pretend otherwise.

19 December 2011 at 20:50  
Blogger Hereward said...

The Bishop will doubtless be displeased to hear that the Chancellor refused to pay a single penny into the circuitous IMF eurobailout bucket. How awfully isolationist and un-european of him.
That should rachet up the anti-British resentment to Defcon 2 just in time for the season of peace and goodwill.

19 December 2011 at 20:53  
Blogger William said...

Hooray for the Chancellor. Some Christmas cheer as last.

19 December 2011 at 20:58  
Blogger DizzyRingo said...

I seem to remember something about "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's."

Seems to me that the Bish (of Guildford) is too concerned with Caesar and not enough with God.

19 December 2011 at 21:25  
Blogger happyuk said...

Why does the Church of England need a ‘Europe spokesman’ in the first place.

By God, I'd enforce some drastic changes if I were in charge. Not least the requirement that all churchman employ their time administering to their flock, the remainder spent in contemplation and God communion, just like they're paid to. Revd Hill is little more than a salaried slave. Sooner or later, the CofE is going to have to close down this nonsense.

19 December 2011 at 21:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Baggaley. Until you're married, you can just walk away; no questions asked.

You romantic, what a catch you must be....

19 December 2011 at 21:42  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Inspector; Thank you. I don't think I could contain myself if I replied to Baggaley.

19 December 2011 at 22:01  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Snicker.

19 December 2011 at 23:09  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Baggaley said ...
"Many of our modern notions of love and romance are mere social inventions; it is a mistake to pretend otherwise."

Irony or stupidy?

My marriage and children are all founded on a "notions of love and romance" that are a "social invention"? If so then they're the greatest invention ever!

19 December 2011 at 23:09  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Ps
Bah Humbug!

19 December 2011 at 23:12  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Mr I: "Fortunately, Melanie Philips from the Mail spoke on the value of marriage and that statistics prove that married couple are less likely to split than unmarried couples."

They'd be even less likely to split if women were pushed out of the jobs market again, divorce was prevented, and living together was instituitionally disapproved of. So much for the socially conservative and the religious. They've missed a trick there in trying to sustain marriage. Easier to attack gay marriage as potentially undermining straight marriage in some strange way and forget about the herd of elephants in the room. ;)

19 December 2011 at 23:14  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJo

Or to put it another way:

They'd be even less likely to split if women weren't forced to work and could choose to stay at home, if people honoured their sacred oath more "for better for worse ... until death do us part", and where permanent commitment through marriage was seen once again as the norm.

19 December 2011 at 23:45  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Well, as long as these things are approached in the same way then I can hardly shout: hypocrisy! So, as divorce is legal and living together is socially accepted we can legalise marriage for gay people and you merely tut from from sidelines as you presumably do for divorce and co-habitation. A result!

20 December 2011 at 00:04  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Not that I see much tutting about divorce and co-habitation from you, Dodo. I see lots of stuff about gay marriage though. ;)

20 December 2011 at 00:05  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0
Divorce and cohabitation are unacceptable too from a moral standpoint - so too is abortion and contraception. However, it's a 'Catholic thing' this consistantly applied sexual morality and this is a protestant blog!

The above are different matters to proudly proclaiming homosexuality to be 'normal', morally acceptable and on a par with hetrosexual marriage.

20 December 2011 at 00:22  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Divorce and cohabitation are unacceptable too from a moral standpoint"

As far as Catholics are concerned. The rest of us, the overwhelming majority, think it's acceptable as far as I can tell. I have some advice for you: if you personally believe it is unacceptable to cohabit or divorce then I suggest you don't cohabit or divorce. The rest of us can get on with our lives as we see fit. *thumbs up*

20 December 2011 at 00:49  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

The same format applies for marrying another men: Don't do it if you think it's unacceptable according to your personal beliefs.

20 December 2011 at 00:53  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0 said ...

"The rest of us can get on with our lives as we see fit."

Yes, subject to not dragging us all down with you or corrupting the morals of the young. Unlike some, I believe the moral climate of a society, what it finds acceptable and unacceptable, influences everyone. And morality isn't, from my point of view, an invention of man. Failure to comply has consequences.

20 December 2011 at 01:25  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo the Umpah Dude :

boom-banga-bang, foooozle, clang, boom, bluuuurh, phut, boom!

Fer Gawd's sake, someone chuck 50p in his bleedin titfa!

20 December 2011 at 04:22  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Yes, subject to not dragging us all down with you or corrupting the morals of the young. Unlike some, I believe the moral climate of a society, what it finds acceptable and unacceptable, influences everyone. And morality isn't, from my point of view, an invention of man. Failure to comply has consequences."

Which of course begs all sorts of question. There's something of the Saudi ban on women driving in this. The story is here and contains this:

"The report contains graphic warnings that letting women drive would increase prostitution, pornography, homosexuality and divorce."

No doubt the author of the warnings thinks it is obvious that these things simply and inevitably follow from women having some level of social autonomy and they're significant enough to deny them it in the interests of society.

20 December 2011 at 08:04  
Blogger len said...

Surely we can trade with Europe, holiday there,remain on good terms with Europe without' getting into bed' with them?

20 December 2011 at 08:11  
Blogger English Pensioner said...

I think the Anglican church leaders might be concerned that we could get to close to the US. I don't think that the American style of Christianity would appeal to many of our senior clergy!

20 December 2011 at 10:20  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0

And that's what 'good' secular government concerns itself with as opposed to 'aggressive' secular government. An open and democratic debate about such issues that includes consideration of the views of faith groups, without accusations of homophobia flying around.

The homosexual agenda, in my view, is being pushed too far without any such open debate.

20 December 2011 at 12:11  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Hey DanJo - this may appeal to you sense of humour - certainly made me chortle.

Christopher John Hill (born 10 October 1945),

is the Bishop of Guildford (from 2004) and the 'Clerk of the Closet' in the Ecclesiastical Household of the Royal Household of the Sovereign of the United Kingdom...

In July 2009, Hill courted controversy over interference in another church's affairs by admonishing the Church of Sweden on their decision to approve gay marriage from 2005'
.

Talk about unintended irony! Do these people live in the real world or what?

20 December 2011 at 12:38  
Blogger Preacher said...

Perhaps the good Bishop of Guildford should have a look in his Bible (If he can remember where he left it), try reading Genesis 11:1-9 to see God's view & probably the EEC's intentions too. How blind must mankind be when one of the main structures that the EEC have built was openly based on a depiction of the original tower of Babel.
The Devil is taking the Mick, Big Time. Perhaps the crumbling of the Euro is the beginning of the end of New Babel?.
Awake Oh sleepers & God shall give you light.

20 December 2011 at 13:06  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "An open and democratic debate about such issues that includes consideration of the views of faith groups, without accusations of homophobia flying around."

Well, that sounds great. You're including all religious groups in that, I suppose. In that case, I guess we need a debate about Sharia Law in the UK too, including whether women should be encouraged to cover their heads with a scarf in public. All women, I mean.

Of course, we're a representative democracy which means that sometimes Parliament leads public opinion and sometimes it follows it so one can't expect a majority view to take precedence. Also, there are rights considerations too and equality before the law.

20 December 2011 at 13:51  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0

And none of the considerations you list should prevent an open, public debate free from accusations of prejudice and a breach of human anyone's rights.

20 December 2011 at 16:53  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

that's ... anyone's human rights.

20 December 2011 at 16:54  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Oh I agree, I'm a liberal afterall. Although accusations of (say) homophobia are fine if they're homophobic. To which human rights are you referring? Qualified ones, by any chance? You know what I mean by that, right?

20 December 2011 at 17:01  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0 said ...

"Although accusations of (say) homophobia are fine if they're homophobic."

By who's judgement? Above I asked if the views of my faith are 'homophobic'. Well? You constantly suggest these views are a cover for homophobia. This, I could say, is a Christophobic statement.

"To which human rights are you referring? Qualified ones, by any chance?"

Qualified and unqualified Human Rights, although the latter require cautious interpretation and application too.

20 December 2011 at 18:10  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "By who's judgement?"

Their readers, of course.

"Above I asked if the views of my faith are 'homophobic'. Well? You constantly suggest these views are a cover for homophobia."

No, I suggest your particular presentation of them here has been homophobic.

"This, I could say, is a Christophobic statement."

*shrug* Knock yourself out there, why would I care? You seem to be very bothered about the homophobia thing though.

"Qualified and unqualified Human Rights, although the latter require cautious interpretation and application too."

You seem very keen on avoiding stuff lately. Which human rights in particular are you talking about?

20 December 2011 at 18:33  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

As we’ve gone way off thread, no harm in the Inspector delighting you with a Christmas favourite....

A mother was dragging her son around a well known department store.
They came upon Santa’s grotto. A bit pricey, but mum dug deep in her purse, so in the lad went.
Five minutes later, he re-appears white as a sheet.
“Well, what was it like” the impatient mother asks.
“It was horrible, I hated it” said the lad.
“Santa sat me on his lap. His beard smelt of roll ups and beer. He whispered all kinds of weird stuff
in my ear, then put his finger up my bottom”.
“Yes, but did you like the present, Lord knows he charges enough” she brusquely said.

20 December 2011 at 18:49  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Avi Barzel; I don't know if you will see this, but have a good Hanukkah.

20 December 2011 at 18:59  
Blogger Nibor said...

so despite the CofE having adherents on every continent this bishop wants to isolate itself in EUrope .

20 December 2011 at 19:59  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0

*shrug* Go away if you want to be silly.

All 'Human Rights' require careful interpretation and application, some more than others. For example, the unqualified rights to marry and the unqualified prohibition on discrimination. And, of course, I'd probably have a different view on the qualified rights to respect for private and family life, freedom of thought, conscience and religion, and freedom of expression.

20 December 2011 at 20:20  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Couldn't care less. Our country is simply better off out of this Euro mess. And no more bailouts. The Meds will just have to retire at 70, like us Brits.

20 December 2011 at 21:22  
Blogger DP111 said...

Controversial Virgin Mary billboard destroyed by protester

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/newzealand/8964941/Controversial-Virgin-Mary-billboard-destroyed-by-protester.html

20 December 2011 at 23:06  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DP111

Thanks for posting this.

This proud and "progressive" Anglican Church, in the words of its Archdeacon, wants to lampoon the literal interpretation of the Christmas conception story "and that somehow this male God impregnated Mary ... What we're trying to do is to get people to think more about what Christmas is all about ... We actually think God is about the power of love as shown in Jesus, which is something quite different than a literal man up in the sky."

Two years ago it was a poster of Joseph and a diaappointed Mary after sex with the caption "Poor Joseph. God is a hard act to follow." And they're at it again this year by depicting a distressed Mary looking at a pregnancy test result.

A Christian Church following a Christian path based on the Bible? No Virgin conception and birth and no Incarnation, a child fully human and fully God!

Jist how in the name of God can this be considered Chrisitian - even allowing for the 'via media'?

20 December 2011 at 23:36  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Mr Integrity,

Thank you very much! And if I don't catch you in the next few days, allow me to extend early greetings, and to borrow Her Majesty's preferred wording and wish you and yours a very Happy Christmas.

21 December 2011 at 04:40  
Blogger bwims said...

It's obvious to me that the CofE has been infiltrated by socialists with the specific objective of triggering disestablishment.

21 December 2011 at 08:56  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

bwims

Oh, I really doubt it. Why would socialists need to infiltrate? More likely the 'liberal and progressive' wing, with its humanist and secular message, has taken full advantage of the Church's governance stuctures, appointment processes and lack of authoritative leadership to suit themselves.

21 December 2011 at 22:56  
Blogger Chris Gillibrand said...

Where by divers sundry old authentic histories and chronicles it is manifestly declared and expressed that this realm of England is an empire...governed by one supreme head and king having the dignity and royal estate of the imperial crown of the same, unto whom a body politic, compact of all sorts and degrees of people divided in terms and by names of spiritualty and temporalty, be bounden and owe to bear next to God a natural and humble obedience.

They forget their own heritage.

24 December 2011 at 15:30  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

A good reminder, Mr Gillibrand. Words to be engraved and affixed throughout your land and mine. Good luck in your parts. Over here, in Canada, I'm still working on convincing many people that yes, Her Majesty is actually the head of our government, otherwise no, it wouldn't make much sense to have a Prime Minister or a Governor General if it were the UN, WWF or Lady Gaga.

29 December 2011 at 14:53  

Post a Comment

<< Home

Newer›  ‹Older