Sunday, December 18, 2011

Eric Pickles keeps Christ in Christmas

Here is the utterly godless and manifestly egocentric Christmas card of Speaker Bercow, which appears to suggest that, far from being embarrassed by or ashamed of his wife's appearance on 'Big Brother', he saw it rather as an opportunity to augment his personal profile (and so diminish his status):


Here is the rather strange Christmas card of the Prime Minister. Patriotic? Certainly. But who are these random children? What relationship are they to Mr and Mrs Cameron? Are they props, simply to avoid the exploitation of their own children? What has any of this to do with the birth of the Son of God?


Here we have the Christmas card of the Home Secretary. It is as inane, bland and PC as Theresa May herself. It appears to feature a spinning tree. Perhaps someone should tell her that Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus are not offended by Christmas: the Home office may freely celebrate the nation's indigenous culture and festivals:


And finally, we come to the Christmas card of Eric Pickles, Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. He has ridden to the defence of Christmas numerous times over past years. His card even features a church with a cross upon it. What a relief that there is someone in government who is not ashamed to keep the Christ in Christmas:

206 Comments:

Blogger martin sewell said...

Follow that "Star"!

Next year however Eric should go for a full on Madonna and child - a Fra Angelico or a Duccio perhaps. At Christmas we should be generous and can afford to be a tad communitaire on this issue.

18 December 2011 at 11:58  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

What on Earth is a "Season's Greetings"? Have a happy Winter? I thought that line was a North American department store invention and didn't know it made its way to your parts. And those are not your PM's kids? How totally weird. Stand fast and keep your Christmas Christian, folks, and blast anyone who tries to tell you otherwise. As the famous line goes, "don't let the bastards wear you down."

18 December 2011 at 12:01  
Blogger Sam Vega said...

"His card even features a church with a cross upon it."

It is in fact a decoration upon an enormous iced cake.

18 December 2011 at 12:20  
Blogger Larks Tongues in Aspic said...

Every bloody year, this Daily Mail persecution complex. Change the record.

18 December 2011 at 12:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

^ Lol

I send christmas cards to friends and family and I get sent cards back from various places. I actually make them by hand and tailor their content to the recipient but I always write "Merry Christmas" in them.

I find it a little odd to receive a Christian Christmas card with biblical verses or other overtly religious content in them. I don't think they're actually appropriate for non-Christians. A "Merry Christmas" is surely fine though whoever the recipient is.

18 December 2011 at 13:01  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

His Grace: "Here is the rather strange Christmas card of the Prime Minister. Patriotic? Certainly. But who are these random children? What relationship are they to Mr and Mrs Cameron? Are they props, simply to avoid the exploitation of their own children? What has any of this to do with the birth of the Son of God?"

Well, quite. There are some people who are rather suspicious of Mr Cameron's proclaimed Committed Christian credentials, including the rather convenient church attendence next to a well-to-do-but-not-too-over-the-top primary school.

18 December 2011 at 13:07  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJO, on the subject of offending, I have a Christian friend with whom we have this little battle going. After we established that neither would be offended with overtly religious greetings, we started to compete to see who can send the most kitschy, saccharin and over-the-top card he can find. Nope, no Duccios or Fra Angelicos mentioned by Mr Sewell. I get a lot of badly drawn cherubs with chubby bums, and once a cross that lights up when you open the card. He gets a lot of surreal Judaica kitsch, like a Passover one in which the "artist" made Moses look like Osama bin Laden parting a sea of green pudding. This Friday I mailed him a Hanukkah card with an awful illustration of dancing children who look more like Spielberg aliens and a chip that chimes the tune to "Dreidl, dreidle, dreidl..." It's a lesson in humilty for both of us, as part of the competition involves the ability to calmly and proudly hand the artistic atrocity to the cashier.

wv: gonal

18 December 2011 at 13:24  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "[...] and once a cross that lights up when you open the card."

Oh I'd love one of those!

I'm not offended by Christian christmas cards, just a little puzzled why I'd be sent one really. I mean, don't they know the real meaning of Christmas? It's Father Christmas of course. Fat bloke, jolly, white beard, leaves presents for people in the middle winter. For me, that is. :)

18 December 2011 at 14:21  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Good grief, Your Grace. Cameron’s people not only found 2 school children in central London who were white, but managed to show them without a ‘balancing’ Black and Muslim child in the picture too. Now that’s as much of a miracle as finding 3 wise (...EU leaving...) men in the cabinet. The Inspector recalls his posting of yesterday suggesting ‘multiculturism’ has been driven to an isolated spot, and thrown out of the car, all on the quiet...

18 December 2011 at 14:29  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

The Inspector recalls a Christmas card which pictures Rudolf noting that Santa had not returned from his last delivery for some time and was wondering how much longer he would be. Santa had inadvertently gone down a crematorium chimney....

18 December 2011 at 14:35  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJO, in Central Europe Santa Claus was depicted as a rather svelte St Nicholas, with a mitre on his head and a Bible decorated with a cross. No ambiguity in that. Has the Coca Cola version of the jolly fat man all in red made its way to the UK as well? Also, here in Toronto people have been strapping furry reindeer antlers to the roofs of their cars. Has that shown up in your parts? If not, I can send a container and perhaps we can make a killing....

18 December 2011 at 14:42  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Inspector, LOL! Not one for the kiddies. One would hope?

18 December 2011 at 14:43  
Blogger Berserker said...

Avi Barzel said
Also, here in Toronto people have been strapping furry reindeer antlers to the roofs of their cars.

I hardly see Canada as a 'killing fields' country so I trust they're not real antlers but the sort one can buy from Amazon with flashing red noses. If they're on a sturdy butch four by four for instance do female reindeer in the vicinity start flirting with said vehicle? Although come to think of it, the males lose their antlers in winter, so are they all females who have the antlers? A Lesbian winter?

18 December 2011 at 15:16  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

I should have been more specific, Berserker; they are fake stuffed antlers, of course. There's quite a bit of hunting in the north and hunters will keep spectacular antlers, but Torontonians have become very squeemish and PC.

18 December 2011 at 15:32  
Blogger Oswin said...

Avi: it's OK, ''Seasons Greetings'' and, ''Compliments of the Season'' are old, and accepted forms of seasonal address here. They carry no anti-religious connotation.

Similarly, Britain has traditionally, and most happily, mixed both pagan and Christian symbols, at all our major religious festivals. Few Christians here, would wish to do away with the Yule Log, robin redbreast, boughs of holly, mistletoe, laurel wreaths etc.

Mind you, to my eye, Eric Pickle's 'church' looks a tad suspicious! :o)

18 December 2011 at 15:48  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
Eric Pickles, my MP, has a very good voting record on Christian moral issues. He was reported as saying to a colleague on a visit to our church school that he always had an interest in Christianity as his parents were seventh day Adventists!

18 December 2011 at 15:56  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Oswin, over here these greetings came to be used when our school boards launched their great idea of secularizing the holidays, removing Christian symbols and turning what used to be Christmas concerts with carols into a tacky pseudo-secular multicultural fests. We "multiculturals" find this patronising pap offensive, and while our kids won't sing carols, they will watch and cheer their friends and classmates on. Possibly things in Toronto are more tense than elsewhere, given the ethnic and religious mix we have here.

When one of my kids was in public school, she was being pushed to learn Christmas carols with the traditional tunes, but with the lyrics leached out of any religious meaning. The teachers mixed these in with children's Hanukkah songs, supposedly to "even" things out, given that there was a sizable group of Israeli kids at the school in our neighbourhood whose physician parents were on 2-year contracts as medical residents or specilists. To tense things up a bit, the principal "strongly insisted" that our child take part, otherwise, G-d forbid, she might feel "excluded." My reply, that it's ok, our kids have their own community and religion for such things and that being Jewish involves getting used to being excluded, and excluding one's self voluntarily. The shock on her face made me worry that she ooked like was going to bring children's services over.

This whole holy day thing has become surreal and contrentious, paradoxically thanks to secularism and multiculturalism. We are told to play along and join in because Christmas isn't really a Christian holiday anymore, just a day for good food, gifts and fun and friendship between all people of any religion, and that Hanukkah too had a universal message, as Any attempts to explain that indeed, Christmas is and should be properly treated as a Christian holiday and that Hanukkah is a Jewish festival commemorating an armed revolt by Jewish guerrilas against enforced universalism, at least the way Hellenists and Greeks envisoned it, usually goes over like the proverbial lead balloon. Over the years I've found that religious people of other religions are far more tolerant of my peculiarities than secular types, who declare everything as "just having some fun" and treat you as a sociopath when you don't join them in their "totally non-religious" celebrations which do, however, magically fall on the same dates as the religious versions. Try telling a secularist that if that's the case, to do Christmas dinner and gift giving a couple of days after the 25th...shopping's easier and stuff's cheaper...and you'll get a blank stare.

18 December 2011 at 16:32  
Blogger Oswin said...

Avi: You surprise me, I'd have thought Canadians would have had more sense. Oh dear, is this what comes from drinking Labatts?!?!?

18 December 2011 at 16:48  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Danj0 13:01 “I find it a little odd to receive a Christian Christmas card with biblical verses or other overtly religious content in them. I don't think they're actually appropriate for non-Christians. A "Merry Christmas" is surely fine though whoever the recipient is.”

You do live in a Christian country Danj0 and Christmas is all about the birth of Jesus, a religious celebration even though you lot are trying to erase this fact and make it about Santa bringing you presents cos you're worth it! NOT Lol.

So atheists should just quietly accept the fact that they will get sent religious cards with verses and depictions of baby Jesus and the like and graciously accept the good wishes sent you.

18 December 2011 at 16:49  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Avi if I may join in a little here you may be interested in taking a butchers at this link which may go a little further to explain the non religious significance of Season's Greetings.

http://www.essortment.com/christmas-pagan-origins-42543.html

(BTW 'butchers' is Cockney rhyming slang for a 'look' - as in butchers hook - shortened to just 'take a butchers')

18 December 2011 at 16:54  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Marie. DanJ0 should look forward to the day, when he can, eat drink and be Mary !

18 December 2011 at 16:58  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

18 December 2011 at 16:59  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "You do live in a Christian country Danj0 and Christmas is all about the birth of Jesus, a religious celebration even though you lot are trying to erase this fact and make it about Santa bringing you presents cos you're worth it! NOT Lol."

A Christian country? Hardly. Its State has the legacy of Christianity in it but that's about it thank goodness. As for Christmas being all about that, you dream! It's as much a Green Man celebration in the dead of winter, or a Clinton Cards type consumer event, as it is about the celebrations of a religious minority.

As for erasing the Christian aspect of it, I have no intention of trying to do that. I'm a liberal. I don't care whether you cavort naked around a holly bush, attend a midnight mass, get drunk down the pub, or wear a celice and flagellate yourself all night for you sins. As long as you leave the rest of us to get on with what we want to do in our own way then it's all good.

"So atheists should just quietly accept the fact that they will get sent religious cards with verses and depictions of baby Jesus and the like and graciously accept the good wishes sent you."

Yes ma'am. We won't draw Hitler moustaches on the depictions of Mary on them and little horns on the baby, honestly.

18 December 2011 at 18:09  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "and make it about Santa bringing you presents cos you're worth it"

Actually, I prefer to give rather than receive. So to speak.

18 December 2011 at 18:30  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0 I prefer to give rather than receive. So to speak..

Don’t we all, dear fellow !! {AHEM}

18 December 2011 at 18:47  
Blogger non mouse said...

Your Grace, 'Not so great and not very good' - could apply to both senders and cards.

Except ... one joins you in appreciation of Mr. Pickles. And the twirly bit that artistically fills the space to the right of his card is interesting. Perhaps one may interpret it as a vine originating at whatever the unglobally warmed 'grassroots' may be...

Otherwise, I'm fortunate in that I'll never receive cards from any of them. And sorry that we'll all have to put up with their bossing us about for the next year.

18 December 2011 at 18:57  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Oswin, Labatt's would actually explain it. Sour, headache-producing swill. Me, I'm a life-long fan of Plzensky Prazdroj, the original Czech pilsner, the bestest brew in the World.

Dreadnaught, I knew about of most of the stuff in the article...thanks for the link...except for the mummers bit. The mummers customs appear all over Europe, even Eastern Europe, and I think it's an Indo-European one, predating even the Roman Empire.

With regards to Christmas' pagan roots, we shouldn't be surprised if it's a "syncretistic" holiday, as most big religions appear to have taken layers of traditions from civilizations before them when celebrating their own unique events. It makes sense to do that. What is important to a people in a particular time period is not the origin of the related customs about symbols, acts, music and food, but what these holidays or customs were transformed into, or how they were "raised up" with the new religion. The bottom line is, whatever the origins or historical strands, neither your Christmas nor our Passover can be described today as primitive Winter or Spring festivals to chase away the dark or to induce fertility.

18 December 2011 at 20:00  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "The bottom line is, whatever the origins or historical strands, neither your Christmas nor our Passover can be described today as primitive Winter or Spring festivals to chase away the dark or to induce fertility."

It's a post-modern version of that though. At least in this part of the world, a festival to look forward too in the darkest part of the year, especially when it involves fairy lights and candles, warm log fires, feast food, alcohol, and winter colours of gold, maroon and deep green, is pretty welcome really. As I said earlier: it's a Green Man thing at some level or other.

18 December 2011 at 20:18  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

I readily admit even as an atheist I enjoy the spirit of good will and generosity at the heart of the Christmas celebrations.

Being brought up culturally if not churchgoing Christian I see no reason for anyone with the same views as myself as feeling sidelined or marginalised at this time of year because it has always been in my experience, an all inclusive festival and I am saddened that it brings out the Grinch in some atheists or multiculturalists.

I send my 'Christmas' cards out without reference to religion and I am more please to receive cards from others who do - Life's just too short to go spoiling other peoples parties with petty and spiteful resentment. In any case I'm glad of who I am and where I am and pity the poor sods in this world on the receiving end of religious bigotry and persecution just because the bully boy majority can get away with it.

Shalom young Dude - you write so well.

18 December 2011 at 20:35  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Right, DanJO, holy days and traditions can easily change simply in the way any particular people observe them at any particular time. But a Christmas that is only about food, drink and a good time becomes a generic "Winter Fest" really; a Passover that is a liberal celebration of any fashionable kind of emancipation one chooses to highlight is no longer a Passover, but becomes political theatre.

18 December 2011 at 20:41  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

That's probably true, Avi, but I'm not suggesting that Christians or Jews should change the content of their holy days at all. Not at all. However, Christmas in the UK is also a secular holiday, it is not owned by Christians. The rest of us can do what we like. I don't personally know any atheists, agnostics, or Cameron-type Christians who want to stop Christians celebrating the birth of their man-god thingy in a religious way.

The sort of stuff that hits the papers is usually government service providers, local government ones probably, who are beholden to tax payers of all creeds and none. They seem to be unnecessarily stymied by multicultural concerns, presumably because they don't want to be seen to be excluding sections of our UK population. Some people then assume that service provider attitude is put forward by secularists and atheists in general. Erroneously, I'd say.

18 December 2011 at 21:04  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Shalom back, Dreadnaught, from the (not so) young dude. I like your attitude and your sensibility. When I went through a brief atheist period in my first year of university, I was an angry atheist, more of the Tingey type than yours, whenever interacting with religious people from all backgrounds. I was nasty, bitter, contemptious and in-your-face for reasons which are still unclear to me. My low point was ordering a cheese, pepperoni and bacon bits pizza on Yom Kippur, a full fast day and the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, and conspicuously eating it on the porch just when our neighbours were returning from the morning service. I'm sure I had some brilliant and convoluted logic to back my shocking display of contempt with, but it boiled down to me being a stupid juvenile twit. I still blush at that memory.

18 December 2011 at 21:08  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJO, yeah, I've noticed that too, that these anti-holiday attitudes seem to be limited to the institutional zealots (and me for a brief time, as I recounted to Dreadnaught, above). Most people, even secular folks, will go along merrily and out of respect even join their parents at church or synagogue on the big holidays.

18 December 2011 at 21:12  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dreadnaught. That’s the spirit old chap, just join in with it all...

18 December 2011 at 21:25  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

“It's as much a Green Man celebration in the dead of winter, or a Clinton Cards type consumer event, as it is about the celebrations of a religious minority.”

Well yes it coincides with a pagan festival of the Cornucopia or the horn of plenty. But the sobering thought of a saviour being born who was the Son of God gives us thought to temper ourselves, be grateful for what we have and think of others especially those less fortunate. It lends a balance to the gorging and greed.

“As for erasing the Christian aspect of it, I have no intention of trying to do that. I'm a liberal. I don't care whether you cavort naked around a holly bush, attend a midnight mass, get drunk down the pub, or wear a celice and flagellate yourself all night for you sins. As long as you leave the rest of us to get on with what we want to do in our own way then it's all good.”

I find it both sad and comical that our Prime Minister and other ministers and mps feel they cannot send out a Christmas card that has anything to do with Christmas at all for fear of upsetting somebody.

I wont be wearing any cilice or flagellating myself, and I'll leave the naked prancing to you gays, you do it so much better. Your view of religion seems very steeped in the past and negative. Have you had any bad experiences?

18 December 2011 at 21:26  
Blogger non mouse said...

The bottom line is, whatever the origins or historical strands, neither your Christmas nor our Passover can be described today as primitive Winter or Spring festivals to chase away the dark or to induce fertility.

Well said, Avi, here and at 20:00... Unfortunately your wisdom is lost on those blind and deaf who will not admit the difference between Word and words.

Increasingly, it seems that the deconstructors have never forgiven God for what he did to the Tower of Babel... So, like all agents of what we call "AntiChrist" they must destroy whatever has been built to the Glory of the Word. At the same time, they persist in trying to replace it with Neu Babel. And, indeed, with the harbingers of grief they call 'festive.'

Truth is: "their ways" all lead to darkness -- and ultimately reduce fertility. [Even the rootless 'tree' card above can be construed as showing a spiral Fall of Lucifer...]

18 December 2011 at 21:34  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "Have you had any bad experiences?"

You ask a gay man that? Lol.

The card thing is a lose-lose situation for them really. If I received an Eid Mubarak card like this then I'd be quite pleased. If I received one like this then I'd raise an eyebrow, especially if it had verses from the Qur'an in it, but it's not a matter of offence for me. How about you? But better for government offices to be bland, on balance, I think. There are some right religious nutters around, you know.

18 December 2011 at 21:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "But the sobering thought of a saviour being born who was the Son of God gives us thought to temper ourselves, be grateful for what we have and think of others especially those less fortunate. It lends a balance to the gorging and greed."

Similar to Ramadan then in some ways.

18 December 2011 at 21:42  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

No Danj0 not fasting just moderation and consideration. Nothing extreme.

18 December 2011 at 21:51  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. The Inspector howled with laughter on seeing the second card. Getting that one through the door is enough to make any gay man break out in a sweat ! No doubt Allah would consider your demise a blessing, your head being separated from your sinning backside. Any more in your collection !!

18 December 2011 at 21:59  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

non mouse, you flatter me, and I appreciate the window into your beliefs so well describe...and so much more economically than me and my verbose ways.

Our mystics do see things somehat differently. Our conception of the World is one where it was made by G-d and was called "good," and therefore cannot contain powers that are independent of an all-powerful G-d and in a rebellion against Him. Shaitan is, according to the kabbalists, the "Hinderer," a mindless automaton of an angel whose assigned function is not to trip us up or destroy us, but to throw difficult tasks over which we must rise above. Similarly, the mystical yetzer ha-rah semi-correctly translated as the "evil inclination" is there not to harm us but to lead and spur us to goodness through our own efforts. The Talmud says that without the yetzer ha-rah which can easily push us into lust and greed, we wouldn't marry, make families or compete and make a living. But to achieve these, it must be tempered and "raised" through the yetzer ha-tov" the "good inclination" lest we devolve to savagery and horror. We believe that we mustn't fear such supernatural evil, for to do so would be blasphemous, an indication that we distrust G-d's goodness and His absolute dominion over all. We must use even that which to us appears as evil to complete the task of Creation by creating good and transforming and raising every mundane thing and act to a thing or deed of holiness. I'm personally with the rationalist school on these issues and interpret these concepts as symbols of tendencies and trends, much like laws of physics, built into our World. I don't mean to challenge your own beliefs or understandings, but to explain difference in some of our worldviews. And, take anything I bloviate about with a grain of salt, as I'm not a scholar an authority, or a representative of anyone but muself.

18 December 2011 at 23:30  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

PS, non mouse, another way we explain evil is as an absence of G-d or Holiness, or a state removed from G-d and Holiness, thus an absence rather than an entity. Goodness then, would be a greater presence of G-dliness. In this version, our different models would aproximate a convergence, as from what I understand from your explanation, abandonment of G-ds's message leads to darness. But all this philosophizing makes my noggins hurt.

19 December 2011 at 00:09  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Being in bed with the flu and cut off from my family who are keeping away from me and have all but daubed the red plague cross on my door, I can annoy every one with postings through the night. It's an advantage I have being 5 hours ahead of you people.

Those here who won't believe the anti-Christmas mania that takes place every year on this continent should look up today's Mark Steyn's article, "Merry War on Christmas!" in the National Review Online. at www.nationalreview.com. An "artistic" depiction of a crucified Santa skeleton as a "holiday display" at a Virginia county courthouse is one example of this dementia, and there's plenty more nuttery. In the end, Mark Steyn arrives at similar conclusions to those of His Grace here, to Lord Rabbi Sacks a few posts down and many others who see the rising frequency and intensity of attacks on our traditions as a sign of a systemic or civilizational malaise that can lead to our downfall. Or rising Islam, which would, for us, mean the same thing.

19 December 2011 at 00:35  
Blogger non mouse said...

Thanks for the explanation and insights, Avi. As one who is alive to symbolism, I saw and see little to disagree with... Furthermore, the Old English word for good/goodness is god.

I never forget either, the Jewishness of Him we call Christ. Indeed, in honour of my mother and others, I once attended a hospice Memorial Service at a Jewish synagogue. That service instilled a deeper respect: much as I value the antiquity in our tradition, I was awed by the sense and truth of its more ancient origins.

Someone else explained here some time ago, I remember - that Christians have reason to believe in fulfillment, not destruction, of the Law in question.

________


Trusting the 'flu will be short-lived.

19 December 2011 at 01:50  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Plowing right along here from Midtown Toronto while you kids snore away your bangers and beans, Welsh rarebits, paper-wrapped fish and chips, fiery curries, mulled wines or whatever strange things you eat over there. Sometime, with the rights winds we get a whiff.

Back on topic: Here, in crispy-cold Canada, in my lovely Province of Ontario, we are not so provincial as not have our very own Christmas battles. Oh no, no less than two of our MPs have been complaining of insiduous wet-ragging of Christmas traditions by declaring decorations and costumes "safety hazzards" and such. One of the arguments is from the perspective of multiculturalism, which, the lady MP insists must protect Christmas along with all the hundreds of other holidays. I suppose by alphabetical order would be fair, in which case I opt for "Channukkah" as the official spelling. Tra-da-da-boom; that was a joke.

A nugget in the article on the history of attacks on Christmas in the Americas: "The first recorded moment of an attack on Christmas in North America was in 1659, when the Puritans — the founders of the village of Bay Colony in Massachusetts — banned Christmas, believing it wasn’t a truly religious celebration. They believed the holiday had become too commercialized and, as it wasn’t found in the Bible, wasn’t a true Christian holiday." Now that's something for len and Dodo to chew the bacon over. Bwa-hah-hah, I is s-o-o-o ba-a-a-a-d!

Any-hoo, check out Jordan Press' "Ontario MP Demands End to ‘Ban on Christmas Cheer’" in our
online version of our excellent conservativative daily, The National Post (nationalpost.com)

Ok, people, my lovely wife made me take something which she swears is only flu relief medicine and I'm fading rapidly. Too rapidly. Probably because earlier I also snuck in just a wee droplet of Jameson's to add a hint of body to my weak tea with lemon and to put me in the mood conducive for late night ramblings. It's all backfiring rapidly now as one of my eyes has shut down and my prefrontal lobe is close behind. I know you're all sad and disappointed, especially His Grace, that I won't be up all night spamming this blog with a stream of trans-Atlantic electrons, but I promise to be back....one day......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

19 December 2011 at 01:58  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Just saw your post. Thanks, non mouse. Please feel welcome to elaborate, when it's not this late, on in honour of my mother and others, I once attended a hospice Memorial Service at a Jewish synagogue. Good night!

19 December 2011 at 02:03  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "In the end, Mark Steyn arrives at similar conclusions to those of His Grace here, to Lord Rabbi Sacks a few posts down and many others who see the rising frequency and intensity of attacks on our traditions as a sign of a systemic or civilizational malaise that can lead to our downfall."

Unfortunately, I'm a natural iconoclast, at least in the wider sense of the word. I don't see a lot of point following conventions simply because they're conventions. They need to have an uptodate purpose.

I laughed at the comment by Larks Tongues in Aspic up there because alleging attacks on Christmas has become a convention itself, as has bemoaning that we've lost the spirit of Christmas when we're exhausted by all the consumerism at this time of year. The Daily Mail trying to find a Winterval story is another convention.

You know, one point of art is to throw a different light on things and tease out unexpected meanings. That skeletal santa on a cross sounds quite interesting - was the artist advocating a return to Christianity by it? I'm not sure the setting is that great though.

19 December 2011 at 07:13  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "Getting that one through the door is enough to make any gay man break out in a sweat !"

It's the Jehovah Witness people that bother me more at this time of year. They're out in force now and they're another lot for whom "No" is a challenge to be overcome rather than simply meaning, well, "No". Perhaps the latest Watchtower has an article about Christmas not being a biblical thing?

19 December 2011 at 07:19  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

What is the "christmas" of which you speak.

We have no idea AT ALL at what time of the year Yeshua ben Joseph was born.

Cromwell, that very religous bastard BANNED "christmas", because it was nothing to do with christianity.

So, as an atheist, I have no problem at all celebrating Yule / Midwinter / [ Insert Name of fesival HERE ] .....

19 December 2011 at 08:14  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Tingey wrote, "So, as an atheist, I have no problem at all celebrating Yule / Midwinter / [ Insert Name of fesival HERE ] ....."

How about Seinfeld's "Festivus for the Rest of Us." Don't forget Hanukkah either. I don't know how it is in your parts, but go to any synagogue in Toronto and you'll be fed until you need medical intervention. Just try not to, er, talk too much, eh? But whatever you do, Mr Tingey, have a good one, enjoy it and I hope it puts a smile on your face.

19 December 2011 at 13:19  
Blogger Jon said...

Dan - I've only encountered the JW's a couple of times this year. I rather enjoy bantering with them.

I also admire their tenacity, and the fact that they give of their own time. I now understand their motivations for doing this are because each convert means points, and points mean prizes from the great gameshow host in the sky.

For when I get bored with them, I find that a wink and a nice remark about how smart they look in their suit, or a question about how often they work out normally does for them. They aren't big fans of the family...

19 December 2011 at 14:30  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJO, our National Post article I mentioned does cover the over-board paranoia over Christmas that pops up every year as well. Nevertheless, it has been a battle, one waged usually by the libs in position of authority who, every now and then, get a bee in their bonnet and forgetting common sense, persue their madness usually to show how important they are. As I said before, we don't participate in Christmas at all, and the only time we've had trouble over this is not from people who honour the holiday as a religious experience, but from secularists who insist that it's just a cultural tradition and a fun party everyone must take part in.

As for how you treat holidays, that is your own priviledge and I, of all people, would not be telling you that you have to do this or that. As for the skeletal Santa, it would appear that art today is anything that has been proclaimed as art by someone and that politics is a big part of it. If it's controversial and potentially repulsive or insulting to many, put the stupidity in a gallery for anyone who wants to see it, but don't take over public space and force people to "enjoy" it. You know very well that those who are amused at a skeletal Santa placed in a public area would be less amused if it was an image of a skeletal Mohammed with his head lopped off or a Gay AIDS victim with pole up his backside. Perhaps you, a bachelor withjout kids, would be fine with all of that, but you are not the only one around. Look, I feel the same way over the latest trend here of putting up super-realistic Halloween decorations of dead bodies, zombies and vampires. It may be amusing to older folks and teens, but many kids are terrified, have nightmares, and become afraid of deaths, funerals and cemetaries for no good reason other than satisfying someone's urge to be shocking and to intrude into other people's heads. When art has been reduced to shock value alone, public spectacles...a la Colliseum...involving degradation, torture and mutilation of people cannot be far behind.

19 December 2011 at 14:49  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

19 December 2011 at 15:40  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Sorry Danj0 I didn't see tis post until today, must be going blind.


“The card thing is a lose-lose situation for them really. If I received an Eid Mubarak card like this then I'd be quite pleased. If I received one like this then I'd raise an eyebrow, especially if it had verses from the Qur'an in it, but it's not a matter of offence for me. How about you? But better for government offices to be bland, on balance, I think. There are some right religious nutters around, you know.”


No Danj0 the card thing isn't a lose-lose situ. I wouldn't be offended with ether of these, they both convey good wishes. I don't celebrate Eid so I wouldn't display any of them but I'd accept the senders good wishes. And if I lived in a muslim country, well I would expect to get cards, I would display them, but only the nice ones without any hints of dodgy barbaric quran verses.
I think government here should send out proper ones depicting the real traditional Christmas theme baby Jesus in the stable, the three wise men following the Star etc... Otherwise they might as well just send out a birthday card, or not bother at all! Sending a proper card signals that we are still a Christian country and have those values and they are not bad values to have. What is the alternative?
I think a card depicting the birth of baby Jesus signals hope and new beginnings, the birth of new friendships and makes you think about Him and the pain he went through trying to teach people the error of their ways.

19 December 2011 at 15:41  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

None of these cards is Christian in content. At best Mr Pickles has a rather peculiar looking church on his which looks a tad oriental, even mosque-like.

Avi

Christmas is a wonderful Christian celebration and I embrace it - religion, family gatherings, present giving, eating and drinking. Taken together, they make sense. Omit Christ and its meaningless.

By the way, it was interesting reading your account of Judaism's perspective on the 'nature of evil'. I have to say I think the Christian belief in Original Sin and the existance of fallen Angels makes more sense than Kabbalah mysticism. Perhaps we can explore this another time, although I know you feel reticient about debating your faith.

19 December 2011 at 16:52  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

For the delectation of His Grace’s discerning followers and Tingey, the beautiful carol ‘Gaudete’. See also Youtube with Steeleye Span

Gaudete, gaudete! Christus est natus
Ex Maria virgine, gaudete!
..........................
Rejoice, rejoice! Christ is born
Of the Virgin Mary — rejoice!

Tempus adest gratiæ
Hoc quod optabamus,
Carmina lætitiæ
Devote reddamus.
..................
The time of grace has come—
This that we have desired,
Verses of joy
Let us devoutly return.

Deus homo factus est
Natura mirante,
Mundus renovatus est
A Christo regnante.
...................
God has become man,
To the wonderment of Nature,
The world has been renewed
By the reigning Christ.

Ezechielis porta
Clausa pertransitur,
Unde lux est orta
Salus invenitur.
..................
The closed gate of Ezekiel
Is passed through,
Whence the light is born,
Salvation is found.

Ergo nostra contio
Psallat iam in lustro;
Benedicat Domino:
Salus Regi nostro.
.....................
Therefore let our gathering
Now sing in brightness
Let it give praise to the Lord:
Greeting to our King.

19 December 2011 at 17:50  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Avi. Man flu is amongst the most serious of illnesses us chaps can suffer from, and it’s frequently made worse by the woman of the house caustically treating you as a malingerer. Sounds if you’re spared that ! The Inspector understands that chicken soup is highly recommended in Jewish households as a general cure all.

DanJ0. When the Witnesses call, try making the sign of the cross, then swearing at them in Polish while waving your fist…

Tingey. Remember being told in RE lesson that Jesus was probably born in September. Birthday moved to the winter solstice as the pagan feasting was incredibly strong and the early church needed something big to rein it in. A walk along the high street will confirm the church never did manage to overcome it.

19 December 2011 at 18:41  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Dodo,

I don't count explaining mystical traditions as religious debates, simply because I see such traditons, be they Jewish or other, as attempts by people to make sense of their universe by using language and cultural concepts. "My" G-d doesn't tell me how to believe, only how to act according to His contract with me and mine.

Also, discussions over mystical issues can only happen when the parties share an identical or very similar worldview, language a symbology. It is not only you, a Catholic, who would draw a blank stare and an agnostic shrug from me on matters mystical, but many of my more "spiritual" coreligionists as well. People in my community know me well enough by now not to bug me about such things, as I simply and politely excuse myself and head for the scotch and herring table.

As things are, I have no basis for accepting your views and vice versa. We have our separate scriptural traditions which do have some very important commonalities, but in other ways are universes apart. From my angle, the written Torah is very lean on metaphysics and the discussions in the Talmud range from the highly rationalistic to highly mystical, with commentaries even agreeing with some of your beliefs, if understand them correctly.

But being in the rationalistic camp, I begin with the assumption that if the Almighty had wanted us to dwell on such things, He would have...among the pages upon pages of detailed instructions on everything under the Sun...given us a little more than what we have, which is very little.

Something to remember, again and again, is that our religions are syncretistic, no matter how many times we try to "purify" them or to determine the pedigree of this or that thought. We have, historically, lived under, with and beside other cultures with their own belief system layers. Underneath our feet, burried in strata going back to prehistory, there are layers upon layers of concepts dating back to our hunter-gatherer days, all the way through the civilizational religions of the Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonians, Proto-Indo-Europeans, Greeks, Romans and so on. This is the danger of mystical speculation of which many of our more rationalistic sages and rabbis spoke of, when they warned about philosophy and magical thinking: By delving into obscure sources, we have no idea whose stuff we are digging up, and high chances are that we are digging up Pagan ideas and seeing them through contemporaneous eyes, which with our skill at projecting, can make them look quite "kosher."

For me, the fact remains that the Torah and Jewish tradition allow me to live a fully proper and observant life without ever having to spend a second on mystical speculations or to ponder obscure mysteries about angels or demons, invisible forces of good and evil, life after death, the World to Come and so on. I let wiser and "higher" minds do that, while I focus on observing the halakhah, our commandments and proper conduct with my fellow humans from the written and oral Torah. I address my prayers only to G-d, I strive to love Him and connect with Him with hope, and from time to time I think I touch an otherness which I cannot articulate. And if I have studied my Torah honestly, to the limits of my ability, I can venture and study other things I care about, such as art, archeology, anthropology and history. These too are a part of G-d's creation, as the laws of physics, cultural and economic behaviour and so on, are undeniably the laws of the Torah which need to be discovered and studied as well. Mine is the only religion I know of which allows me to doubt and question, to even challenge G-d for "breach of contract" in an actual court (as was done several times in the Middle Ages), and to pursue such apparently minimalist goals, and I intend to take full advantage of that right.

wv: spent. I kid thee not.

19 December 2011 at 18:45  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Inspector, spared, yes, this time, and only for a day or so.And only because temperature, hacking, ruddy eyes and a faucet nose provide clear, empirical and unfalsifiable evidence. As you astutely note, "man-flu" provokes women, probably I think, because attention is unfairly being diverted at us. Believe this: If this nonsense of mine continues to go on tomorrow, the first crop of charges of malingering will begin to mature. Not even chicken soup will help me then.

19 December 2011 at 18:58  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Jon: "Dan - I've only encountered the JW's a couple of times this year. I rather enjoy bantering with them."

I allowed them to call for about 18 months to find out more about them. But they're interminable and I eventually grew too bored to bother with them. It doesn't stop them trying though, even when I say: No, not interested. It all sounds a bit familiar, actually. They were in my area again today, presumably trying to get the vulnerable elderly in the sheltered housing near here before they die.

"For when I get bored with them, I find that a wink and a nice remark about how smart they look in their suit, or a question about how often they work out normally does for them. They aren't big fans of the family..."

I save that for the visiting American Mormons. They're lovely to look at as a general rule. I must give out vibes, or have a leer on my face, because they usually try to get away quite quickly. :)

19 December 2011 at 18:59  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Christmas is a wonderful Christian celebration and I embrace it - religion, family gatherings, present giving, eating and drinking. Taken together, they make sense. Omit Christ and its meaningless."

Just like the whole lives of atheists, I suppose.

19 December 2011 at 19:01  
Blogger Larks Tongues in Aspic said...

>"Christmas is a wonderful Christian celebration and I embrace it - religion, family gatherings, present giving, eating and drinking. Taken together, they make sense. Omit Christ and its meaningless."

Dodo, you've posted some tripe in your time, but this takes the biscuit.

19 December 2011 at 19:07  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Oh, DanJO, DanJO, hitting on Mormons. How could you? (Good point, though, you never a see an overweight slob among them, and the chaps like to wear their white shirts tailored) But, entire groups by now, somewhere in a secret location in the hills of Utah, spending days in group therapy, bawling their eyes out, trying to erase the trauma from what was supposed to be a pleasant trip to lovely England. Shame on you.

19 December 2011 at 19:09  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "Shame on you."

My doorbell is for friends and tradesmen. Otherwise, it's on my terms. :)

19 December 2011 at 19:30  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Mormons. Clean cut young American boys, what ! Always gives the Inspector the idea that they were born to be homosexuals but aren’t. Funny old world....

19 December 2011 at 20:10  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Avi. Regarding the man-flu, you’ll know when your period of grace is up when the wife starts ringing her friends....

19 December 2011 at 20:12  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Inspector. Ha! Or worse...my friends.

19 December 2011 at 20:31  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I see this is doing the rounds on facebook in the UK now although it looks very American to me:

"This is not to offend anyone .....Just so everyone knows, I have a CHRISTMAS TREE in my living room (not a holiday tree), my kids are getting CHRISTMAS PRESENTS (not holiday gifts) and we will eat CHRISTMAS DINNER (not a holiday meal), and I will attend a CHRISTMAS PARTY (not a holiday party). I will also very cheerfully wish you a MERRY CHRISTMAS! (not... happy holidays). By the way, if you want to have a Happy Hanukah , by all means do, I respect that. If you want to have a Blessed Kwanzaa, I also respect that. I want to have a Merry Christmas, so I ask YOU to respect that! Repost if you agree!!"

It's a curious thing, this vague outrage without a cause. Repeated an stirred up by the Daily Mail and its drone readers, I think. I mean, every high street and supermarket in the country is absolutely full of Christmas stuff, clearly labelled as Christmas stuff.

19 December 2011 at 20:37  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Larks Tongues in Aspic said...
"Dodo, you've posted some tripe in your time, but this takes the biscuit."

Explain yourself or feck off.

DanJ0
Don't worry too much - there's no mention of attending a Christ-Mass Church service!

19 December 2011 at 21:06  
Blogger Larks Tongues in Aspic said...

None of those things somehow cease to make sense in the absence of Christ. Simples.

19 December 2011 at 22:42  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Larks Tongues in Aspic

So why not just say you don't believe in Jesus Christ? Simples.

19 December 2011 at 23:17  
Blogger Manfarang said...

DanJ0
In Bangkok there are lots of Christmas trees,in the shopping Malls Christmas songs are being played,the department stores have Christmas stuff and street vendors
are selling small sweet oranges.
The weather is nice and cool(by Thai standards- more like a hot English summer)
The English language newspapers wish their readers a Merry Christmas on the the 25th.
Thais have Merry Christmas parties(any excuse to have a party!)
Suk san wan Christmas- Merry Christmas to you all.

20 December 2011 at 02:29  
Blogger Larks Tongues in Aspic said...

Dodo , you've lost me. But Merry Christmas anyway.

20 December 2011 at 07:50  
Blogger Larks Tongues in Aspic said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

20 December 2011 at 08:49  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Larks Tongues in Aspic said...
"Dodo , you've lost me. But Merry Christmas anyway."

May the joy and peace of Christ be with you and your loved ones this Christmas and New Year.

20 December 2011 at 12:15  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

OoIG
YOU ARE aware that May WAS NOT a "virgin" are you not?
That the original just meant "young woman"?

That once the christian church had been taken over as an instrument of State Power by Constantine, and the doctrinal stritch-up at Nicea ennabled - then an adaption/adoption of the Egyptian death/rebirth/"virgin" cult was deliberately followed?
Check out Isis/Osiris/Horus

21 December 2011 at 08:51  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Tingey

So now you're an expert on Church history and the Bible - not!

Run off somewhere and stop pestering people with your ill-informed nonsense.

The Gospel is clear that Mary was a virgin (later disputes centred on whether this was a life long state) and that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

All Christians worthy of the name believe Jesus' conception was a miracle involving no natural father, no sexual intercourse, and no male seed in any form, but instead brought about by the Holy Spirit.

"When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child, of the Holy Spirit."

"And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Spirit shall come upon you and the power of the Most High shall overshadow you. And therefore also the Holy one which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God."

21 December 2011 at 16:08  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Mr Tingey

The Inspector has heard the lot, including that Jesus’ ascension into heaven was assisted by Engineering Officer Mr Scott. And yes, words do change in meaning in a relatively short time period. This is why we Christians believe ‘in good faith’. Of course, this would be anathema to a scientist like you, but then again, consider this:

Apparently, a majority of people ‘believe’ there are humanoid life forms and civilisations like ourselves out there in the great universe somewhere. However, not a single microbe we know about has not originated from earth. Yet, there is no shouting down of these ‘extra-terrestrialists’ by the Serious Scientific Community. Most interesting, as the Inspector is sure you’ll agree.

You see, Judo-Christianity should be prized whether you believe or not. From it, has evolved a fine set of code of conduct humanity is able to live with. It’s why tonight there’ll be no visit from 2 secret policeman demanding to know why the Inspector criticised our glorious and beloved leader Cameron on this site. Do see the larger picture, old chap. Granted, a lot of what we believe in has been lost to public view, but to analyse every word in the bible in much greater intensity than a royal cervic smear is frankly ludicrous. It’s the SPIRIT of Christianity we need to follow; all else we need religiously will follow from that.

We are directly opposed. You want to know why you should believe. The Inspector’s stance is why we shouldn’t not believe. Rather like falling into line, you know. We know comparatively little about everything at our stage of development. We’re not even sure our most treasured scientific theories hold up. Rather early to be deciding we are the highest form of whatever – God forbid, what !

21 December 2011 at 18:52  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Good mind-candy, Inspector. It will upset Mr Tingey, though. Yuri Gagarin, the first man in space, announced that he didn't see G-d out there, so the science is obviously settled.

I very much like your "extraterrestrial" example. When discussions stray to this topic I delight in maintaining what appears to be a shocking position that there ain't nuttin' out there but us. The responses range from incredulity, to sadness, to anger, to derision as, it would appear, that that's "impossible." I'm not a maven on statistics, but even I know that you can't build elaborate predictions and models, like the Drake formula on the basis of "we are here, so others must be out there" and call it "science."

22 December 2011 at 01:31  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "When discussions stray to this topic I delight in maintaining what appears to be a shocking position that there ain't nuttin' out there but us."

It seems rather a waste to have all that stuff out there yet stick us on a little planet in a small solar system as part of a galaxy at the arse end of the universe where most of it we can only guess at using mathematics etc.

22 December 2011 at 07:38  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Good news everyone (as opposed to the Good News), the Telegraph has found a Christmas-under-attack story and it includes atheists! It's in Santa Monica though, rather than Birmingham. Those crazy Merkins.

22 December 2011 at 07:50  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Some really Good News

A study last month showed that only six places of worship out of more than 40,000 across the country want to host civil partnership ceremonies.

Congregations of four small churches and two Quaker groups said they would definitely consider "applying for approval of their religious premises for the registration of civil partnerships".

Most of the country's 46,155 places of worship where marriages may be solemnised opposed the plan, saying they believed it would blur the line between marriage and civil partnership.

They also feared it could lead to challenges under the Equality Act or human rights legislation from homosexual couples who want to be "married" in church.

The Government predicted as many as 1,593 same–sex couples could want to hold their ceremonies in church each year.

22 December 2011 at 10:19  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I see you can't help yourself. It's quite pitiful, really.

22 December 2011 at 10:38  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0 said...
"I see you can't help yourself. It's quite pitiful, really."

What a queer remark ....

Merely posting some very good news on Britain's faith group's determination to withstand homosexual 'marriage'. A deliberate and considered act.

22 December 2011 at 12:31  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo, I seriously think you're quite damaged when it comes down to it. We've all come across trolls online but you're beyond that. You're actually a bit mental, aren't you?

22 December 2011 at 12:39  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0

You really have no idea who I am, what I do or just what makes me tick, do you? Shame, as you so much interest too. You'll just have to live with the suspense.

Got to dash ... a trolley needs moving.

Have a gay Christmas ie as in merry, cheerful, jolly, joyful, blithe and mirthful.

22 December 2011 at 13:38  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "You really have no idea who I am, what I do or just what makes me tick, do you?"

Primarily, you're a childish, attention-seeking forum troll as that at 10:19 demonstrates very well after your comment the other night on the Holloway thread.

I expect you've been brought up a Catholic but I doubt you're practising now. No doubt you still have some of the hangups a fecked-up upbringing like that bestows though.

You're probably of average intelligence but struggle to hold the form of an argument. You've almost no self-awareness, often switching between complaining and subsequently doing what you complain about.

You have very little integrity and are manifestly dishonest as your past use of multiple IDs shows. Your sense of ethics is woefully lacking. You're probably drawn to the Catholic Church for the attention and through a fleeting sense of guilt.

As a child, you were probably bullied but went on to bully others in a gang. You were always the follower though and eager to please but no-one actually respected you. Your cringeworthy sycophancy and your herding of Len shows this very well, I think.

I think that about sums you up. ;)

22 December 2011 at 15:29  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0

Oooo ... you're so personal and offensive.

A word of advice, don't take up character 'reading' as a living or you'll be run out of town.

Now go away you silly wee man.

22 December 2011 at 16:46  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

My post from the Holloway thread:

DanJ0
What a nasty and smutty little mind you have. I doubt your turkey will make it into the oven once your lascivious eyes are set upon it.

Please stop initiating discussions with me - you're becoming rather obsessive in your need for attention.

GO AWAY!


Yet again you initiated this exchange. A compulsion of some sort?

22 December 2011 at 16:53  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Dodo have you thought that Danj0 might have a bit of a crush on you!?

22 December 2011 at 17:28  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Avi. The responses range from incredulity, to sadness, to anger, to derision

Rather reminiscent of DanJ0 after hearing Gay Marriage prospects in Church died suddenly, what !

Most excellent news Dodo.22 December 2011 10:19.

I say Gay chaps. Don’t despair, all you need is a bit of imagination you know. For example, you can hold these civil partnership’s almost anywhere. Here’s a few suggestions…

1 Your old school shower block, where your passions where first aroused
2 The STD clinic where you first met you beloved
3 A favourite public lavatory
4 The railway cutting where you first displayed your anal intimacy to an aghast travelling public
5 The police cells where you were both taken after being arrested for gross indecency in a public place
6 The magistrates court where you were fined and bound over
7 The hospital where your bottoms were patched up
8 The cemetery where your friends who were early victims of AIDS lie

Dear me, it’s a wonderful gay old world, what !

22 December 2011 at 17:37  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Yet again you initiated this exchange. A compulsion of some sort?"

Oh I really think it was the other way around. Note the first time I post something afterwards you're there. You echo the words I used as a title for yours. And look at that, it's a gay topic again. It's just blatant goading Dodo, typical troll stuff.

22 December 2011 at 18:02  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector, you practically hang out of Dodo's chuffhole here these days, and he may as well be rimming Albert. It's like a bloody daisy chain at times to be honest. What's going on? Are you and Dodo feeling nostalgic for your Catholic clergyman's, erm, 'special comforting' when you were youngsters? No wonder Dodo is so conflicted over this gay stuff and rather too focused on it if so.

22 December 2011 at 18:13  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "Dodo have you thought that Danj0 might have a bit of a crush on you!?"

I prefer my men a bit more mature mentally, and a bit more at their peak physically to be honest. And without so much, ahem, baggage.

Speaking of baggage, how's things going with you and the Inspector? Have you exchanged photos? Met up wearing carnations and holding rolled up newspapers?

I'm dying to know, you know. I can't imagine he's like all those other men of yours from the dating sites who were, well, such disappointments.

22 December 2011 at 18:20  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. What’s this, tears ? Do dry your eyes old chap, twas only the Inspector on a jolly. And don’t show weakness, it’s unbecoming of a gentleman, you know. The Inspector agrees Dodo is a no nonsense bruiser, and to be frank wouldn’t want him on his tail. Quite happy he’s in the tent pissing out, so to speak, even if you get a bit wet.

Decent of you to ask about the Inspector and Marie. Emails have been exchanged and telephone conversations conducted. Yours truly has opened a facebook account and is hoping to get a decent image of himself on during the break. Needs to find someone with one of those radio telephone contraptions with a movie camera which can take stills. Isn’t technology marvellous, what !

We might even meet ! Will keep you posted...

Pip pip for now. Be seeing you.

22 December 2011 at 18:49  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Oopsie-daisy...did I come at a bad time? Looks like you's all a bit fidgety and edgy-like before your upcoming holy days. Maybe we can all shoot the shit over the meaning of life and the nature of the cosmos at a better time, then? (Tiptoeing out and gently closing the door after myself)

And don't forget to drive extra-carefully and responsibly, alright? You don't want me to launch into graphic descriptions of things my eyes wish they'd never seen on the highways.

22 December 2011 at 19:01  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Oh well, there, that's better. Conversations are taking on a better tack. Inspector, no dawdling, please; stop anyone on the street between the ages of 3 and 99 and they'll have a mobile with a camera and can take and send you a pic instantly.

22 December 2011 at 19:05  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "What’s this, tears ?"

It's odd how tone is sometimes received on forums despite the intent and the words.

"The Inspector agrees Dodo is a no nonsense bruiser, and to be frank wouldn’t want him on his tail."

Wasn't that him asking to be left alone up there after being hung out to dry a few times? Is there actually anyone here who can't give Dodo a good kicking at will?

22 December 2011 at 19:58  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Inspector
Have you noticed there's a queer little chappie on here with delusions of grandeur? He's inclined to pursue fellow bloggers and then complain they're harrassing him. Quite unstable!

Marie1797
I have and it makes one shudder in horror, but I suspect the real object of his affections is a chap with an avatar sporting a broad smile and a beard. That or his hoover!

22 December 2011 at 20:20  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJO, and what this I see here? "It seems rather a waste to have all that stuff out there yet stick us on a little planet in a small solar system as part of a galaxy at the arse end of the universe where most of it we can only guess at using mathematics etc." To worry about locations and waste implies justice purpose, doesn't it? Fascinating. The secular mind gets a religion of sorts, when looking out at those clusters of smudges in the night sky that are the billions of galaxies and declares it unfair that we be alone in a budget apartment with all this magnificent real estate about us?

22 December 2011 at 20:30  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

That would be justice and purpose.

22 December 2011 at 20:31  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "The secular mind gets a religion of sorts, when looking out at those clusters of smudges in the night sky that are the billions of galaxies and declares it unfair that we be alone in a budget apartment with all this magnificent real estate about us?"

Not at all. If we were the important bit of creation as human religions usually claim then it seems a little wasteful to have all of that out there apparently for nothing. We'd be better in a Truman Show world, surely? However, given the size of the universe and the likelihood of Goldilocks planets, it's quite possible we're not alone.

22 December 2011 at 20:41  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

There might even be a Jesus being for each planet with life on it! Isn't that what the Mormons think? Or the JWs? I forget now.

22 December 2011 at 20:43  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Naah, without the foggiest about all of G-d's plans and schemes, there is no basis for the religious mind to jump to conclusions that without other life, all that is wasteful. The likelihood you speak of is a brave word for a wish, a hope, a faith, and no speculative formula based on only one verifiable example can hide that.

22 December 2011 at 20:51  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Q: What do you call one homosexual on the moon?
A: Problem

Q: What do you call ten homosexuals on the moon?
A: Problems

Q: What do you call the entire homosexual population on the moon?
A: Problem solved

22 December 2011 at 20:54  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Jewish exegetical scriptures actually do touch on previous worlds and other universes with other worlds, but the tradition is vague. Given the way things have been going for us, though, such issues appear somewhere in the second column at the bottom of page 387 on the List of Worries.

22 December 2011 at 20:55  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "He's inclined to pursue fellow bloggers and then complain they're harrassing him."

I've complained you're harassing me? Dodo, you're just a forum troll playing silly games. Badly. I make fun of you personally and use you to sneer at Roman Catholicism. Moreover, your evident homophobia is pretty useful to me too. Please, feel free to 'harass' me whenever you want.

22 December 2011 at 20:55  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "The likelihood you speak of is a brave word for a wish, a hope, a faith, and no speculative formula based on only one verifiable example can hide that."

I don't really care way or another whether life exists elsewhere actually. Without a theistic view of our reality, the fact that life came into being here in some way suggests that it could come into being elsewhere if the conditions are similar. The probability is not zero.

22 December 2011 at 21:00  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "Naah, without the foggiest about all of G-d's plans and schemes, there is no basis for the religious mind to jump to conclusions that without other life, all that is wasteful."

The Catholic Church recognised how damaging it was to its worldview that the Earth was not the centre of everything. No wonder they tried to hold humanity back by trying to suppress the truth that the Earth orbits the Sun.

22 December 2011 at 21:07  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

That’s the spirit DanJ0, chin up. You and Dodo knocking seven bells out of each other is not what the Inspector desires, but don’t let that stop you (...it probably won’t...). By the way, the eight tips for a homosexual get together wasn’t a slight on you. You seem a decent sort, but there is of course the larger homosexual following on this site.

Avi. when talking of the universe, always handy to have the extent to hand...

Number of Galaxies 100,000 million
Number of Stars 70,000 million million million +

And that’s just the OBSERVABLE universe ! And all this from a tiny pinprick called the big bang, plus laws of physics to hold everything together and then us. All by chance, hardly; we’re talking God big time....

22 December 2011 at 21:13  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

But the theistic view doesn't influence probablities one way or another. And no, I can't argue "probability zero" because that too is without an empirical basis. To be consistent, I suppose I have to assume a 50-50 probablity scenario; we are here, and our existence implies the possibility of life on planets which are at least similar to our own. Still, there is no sound reason to say, as atheists, that we aren't a one-time fluke in all of eternity, or as theists, that G-d created only us.

22 December 2011 at 21:16  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "Still, there is no sound reason to say, as atheists, that we aren't a one-time fluke in all of eternity"

Would a generic atheist say that? I very much doubt it.

Aren't you really curious what you god might have planned or intended with all those galaxies, stars, and potential planets?

Christianity is all about the Earth. It's very odd to have all the rest there given that fact.

22 December 2011 at 21:23  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Inspector, always meant to write that stuff down somewhere, but maybe it's easier to memorize Monty Python's "Galaxy Song":

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.

The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.

We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz.
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

22 December 2011 at 21:23  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Q: "What's the most common pick-up line in a homosexual bar?"

A: "Can I push your stool up for you?"

22 December 2011 at 21:25  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Danj0 18:20

Well Danj0 we swapped photo's and had a chat or two over the phone, He's a lovely chap, but not quite as nice as the Inspector! I see us being friends. I think he should take up writing full time, maybe writing plays or some sort of scripts for comedy or dramas. He has a gift for it.

22 December 2011 at 21:27  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo, you're just demonstrating everything I have said about you. In fact, you're like an ADHD child at the moment. How does this help you in any way at all?

22 December 2011 at 21:30  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJO, that is one of my points. An atheist wouldn't say we are alone, because ultimately an atheist is a homo religiosus just like the rest of us and doesn't want to be alone.

I can't speak on behalf of Christianity, but Judaism is, mainly about the Earth, although the word olam also means "universe" and "all existence" depending on the context.

Of course I'm curious, as I'm about all metaphysical issues, including this one. Without scriptural or scientific evidence, though, there isn't much I can do about it.

22 December 2011 at 21:33  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "An atheist wouldn't say we are alone, because ultimately an atheist is a homo religiosus just like the rest of us and doesn't want to be alone."

Avi, I'm an atheist and it doesn't bother me in the least if this planet contains the only life in the universe. Why would it matter to an atheist? Also, let's face it, if we're visited by E.T. then there's no guarantee at all we'll be treated well by them.

22 December 2011 at 21:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Marie.but not quite as nice as the Inspector!,

DanJ0, Women, eh !!

22 December 2011 at 21:40  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Q: "What's the difference between ET and homosexuals?"

A: "ET got the point and left."

22 December 2011 at 21:49  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJ0, it may not bother you personally... although you do cheer for the side of the "likelihood"...but it seems to bother all secular cultures. Science fiction in literature and entertainment, UFOlogy, SETI, all of these involve billions of dollars and millions of people. It's a secular obsession, "permissible metaphysics," one might even say.

22 December 2011 at 21:57  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

On the subject of sci fi, DanJO, I'd like to note that Fran Hebert's Dune series is one of the few works in that genre which spans galaxies and tens of thousands of years, yet assumes that humanity is the only intelligent life in the universe.

22 December 2011 at 22:03  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Avi. The Inspector saw Dune when it came out in the late 1970s. He swears blind that one of the special effects was in fact a painted plastic squeezy bottle...

22 December 2011 at 22:24  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

South Park

Governor: I believe that I might have come up with a compromise to this whole problem that will make everyone happy! People in the gay community want the same rights as married couples, but dissenters don't want the word "marriage" corrupted. So how about we let gay people get married, but call it something else?

Governor: You homosexuals will have all the exact same rights as married couples, but, instead of referring to you as "married", you can be... butt buddies.

Governor: Instead of being "man and wife", you'll be... butt buddies. You won't be "betrothed", you'll be...
[makes quote with his fingers]
Governor: ... butt buddies. Get it? Instead of a "bride and groom", you'd be...
[makes quote with his fingers again]

Governor: ... butt buddies.

Mr. Slave: We wanna be treated equally!

Governor: You *are* equal. It's just that, instead of getting engaged, you would be... butt buddies. And everyone is happy!

22 December 2011 at 22:47  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Very likely so, Inspector. A friend of my works in one of those prop department workshops at a Toronto film studio and he took me around to see how they make things out of ordinary stuff like hockey padding, all sorts of machined geegaws, and other stuff. It all looks crude and uconvincing up close, but once on film with all the special lighting and filters, it seems to do the job. I'm guessing plastic bottles were used for the "stillsuits" and "literjohns" and wall-board staplers for the "lazguns" in Dune.

22 December 2011 at 22:49  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Avi

Please excuse my rude interuption of your more high brow exchange with the Inspector.

You know, for a guy who claims to take a rational approac you have a hankering towards mysticism and the unfathomable. You've 'dabbled' in Kabbalah writings. I recall reading some of the Talmud and Rabbinic writings a few years back and thinking " ... this is deep ... " It is, and some of it is very strange indeed, especially to the uninitiated and unschooled.

Anyway, carry on, just wanted to say that.

22 December 2011 at 23:18  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Dodo, well, this is a highbrow sort of issue too. Although I worry about overly mystical approaches, as they tend to spin out of control many a time, I do have a certain amount of respects for our tradition of mystical thought, as it allows for greater degrees of experimental and comparariely "free" thinking. For example, the seemingly contentious issues such as evolution, Creation, the age of the universe, which split some of the Orthodox community, have been discussed by a number of sages in the past, and are discussed now, discreetly, by those who touch upon Kabbalah in their studies.

But this "free thinking" is very limited, because unlike most mystical systems, Kabbalah does not or should not set itself outside of the mainstream and the true kabbalist must observe all the laws and live in the community. He cannot become a hermit, invent new rituals, claim special visions or powers, abandon pursuit of work and family, or separate himself from the congregation. The closest we have to a monastic system is the yeshiva, the seminary or academy for young, high school aged boys and young men, where they live together for most of the year and study. But all are expected to marry and work, after which they can continue their studies, part time with their chosen havuras study circles composed of friends among whom there should be someone who has been qualified as non-pulpit teacher, a rabbi.

In my havura the rabbi tries to cover the basics of the Talmud with us, as the rest of us are recently religious, as of ten years or so, and we need the Hebrew and Amaraic translated, and many of the laws explained in detail. He of course, has his own havura with more advanced students and teachers. Proper Kabbalah is not something I will likely ever study beyond a few introductory basics, as it requires a busy program of study, advanced language skills and the kind of a knowledge base I don't have. Popular "kabbalists" and celebrities who've turned it into a superstition-filled fad, fail to undertand that the purpose of Kabbalah is to better understand the Torah and to lead to a more Torah-observant life. Kabbalah is properly studied by learned and mature people, preferably after establishing a family, and always under the direction of elder, accomplished and widely respected and successful rabbis, as opposed to loner mystics and odd people.

23 December 2011 at 00:06  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Avi

I do agree with you about fashionable Kabbalah and think some of it to be dangerous.

My father was a Jew, as you know. I recall discussions with him but when I was younger he always avoided discussions about the Talmud and Kabbalah. He had various copies of the Zohar which I dipped into. When I was older and had read into it a bit more, his response was always to leave it alone.

23 December 2011 at 00:39  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Good idea, Dodo, the Zohar is a complicated text and with any such, it's not the "hidden mysteries" that are an issue, but the fact that all these texts were written by and for people with a close understandig of Jewish theology which neither you or I can claim.

Of far greater interest at this time for all of us should be why your Norfolk plods are harrassing one of your bloggers, Tall Bloke, who has been writing about Climate Gate 2. Six plods apparently went in with a warrant to do the job and their "tech specialist" clumsily ripped out Tall Bloke's wireless transmitter, thinking that it contains email logs, perhaps...which, their kids could have told them reside only on the servers of the blog service in the US. Duh. Check out James Dellingpole, Anthony Watts (WUWT). The bumbling Norfolk constabulary and and whatever ditsy judge signed the warrant miscalculated if they thought they would intimidate bloggers and skeptics from publicising the next release of East Anglia's CRU Climate Gate emails; the story has gone viral, a defense fund has been set up for Tall Bloke and any bloggers who might harrassed in the future, and every skeptic I know is ready to muddy the waters with "I'm Spartacus" shenanigans, a flood of complaints and FOIA requests when they next try to catch the person who is releasing legal and publicly owned information which should be released by the university anyway. Spread the news and put up a pound or two in Tall Bloke's defense fund, if you can.

23 December 2011 at 01:28  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Avi

Well done the Boys in Blue!

Mr RT was a naughty, naughty man hacking and sharing confidential information in private emails ("allegedly"). He took his chances and, if there is evidence against him, will pay the consequences.

In truth, I have little sympathy.
The blogger "FOIA" provided a link to a Russian server containing more than 5,000 emails exchanged between climate scientists and also an encrypted subfolder containing a further 220,000 emails. Is there no right to privacy between academic peers?

Call me cynical, but has Russia anything to gain from reducing the use of fossil fuels?

23 December 2011 at 01:52  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Er, that should read:

"Call me cynical, but has Russia anything to lose from reducing the use of fossil fuels?"

23 December 2011 at 01:54  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Careful, Dodo, Tall Bloke is about to sue a journalist who claimed he "stole" stuff. The apology he made might not wash with Tall Bloke and his lawyer.

Anyway, "Foia" (for FOIA, Freedom of Information Act) is not a blogger, he/she/they is/are the source of the released emails, most likely an inside source, rather than a "hacker." Foia gave the link of the latest release out on Tall Bloke's site, on a post, just as this one. Foia has broken no laws, as "he" released (and is about to release more) emails which are not "private," but public, paid for by you. Obviously if Foia has not broken any laws, neither has Tall Bloke, and this "investigation," the first one to harrass a blogger in such a crude and stupid manner, was most likely meant to intimidate the skeptic community. It didn't work and won't work, because precisely the opposite is happening; bloggers and skeptics are emboldened and pissed and they're teaming up and will frustrate such efforts by providing data security, new communication channels, legal obstruction and defenses, political pressure and free and loud publicity.

Neither Foia nor Tall Bloke will "pay the consequences." I suspect that when this Global Warming scam is finally gutted, its innards laid out for the flies, and the massive money fraud which is behind it falls apart with every one squeeling on everyone else, the charlattan scientists, corrupt politicians, greedy institutions, crony capitalists with their lucrative "green" schemes, the vapid media, all the biased and incompetent judges and policemen will be the ones paying the piper. It's obviously about to happen soon, because the panic is palpable and is making them all stupid. Get you popcorn ready, the show's about to start!

23 December 2011 at 03:01  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "It's a secular obsession, "permissible metaphysics," one might even say."

I'm happy to read fiction about vampires and zombies too but I don't think either exist, nor do I hope they do. It's just creative writing. I have to say I'm getting the feeling you're trying to attribute religosity to atheists by the back door and I think that's more about you than about us.

I'm not Mr Tingey who, I believe, is in a small minority of so-called positive atheists. I'm prepared to allow for a theistic god should I find good reasons for its existence. I'm very comfortable leaving a space for a deistic 'god' or a creating external process too. There's no need to be bewildered by us or try to reduce the gap.

23 December 2011 at 06:38  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "Rather reminiscent of DanJ0 after hearing Gay Marriage prospects in Church died suddenly, what !"

I understand the needs of your Catholic tag team thing but I've only advocated gay civil marriage as I'm sure you will eventually remember. In fact, I'd stand up with religionists if a government tries to force churches to marry people. I've said this a number of times.

23 December 2011 at 06:43  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0 said ...

"Please, feel free to 'harass' me whenever you want."

Persecution complex or sado-masoochism? Very bewildering!

Avi

Time will tell if TallBoy behaved properly. If the information was in the public domain legitimately, fine. If not, then its right the law is used to protect private correspondance from theft and disclosure.

23 December 2011 at 13:31  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

"I think it is about time that every one should be allowed to marry who they want. No ifs, ands or butts."

“My neighbor is confused by the whole gay marriage controversy. He just can’t understand why a gay man would want to marry a gay woman.”

23 December 2011 at 13:45  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Hey Dodo, the stuff that you do here, the whole thing including the content, intent, and the delivery I mean, do you think Jesus would approve? Do you actually care a hoot whether he would?

23 December 2011 at 13:58  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0

What's this? An attempt to challenge my motives - again? Boring.

I believe debunking and challenging the attempt at normalising homosexuality is something that Jesus would approve of, yes. As for the content and delivery, I think it's acceptable.

Why don't you ask Him?

23 December 2011 at 14:11  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJO, repeat after me: This topic is not about me. Whether you are "prepared to allow for a theistic god" (which probably makes you an agnostic) or you like fiction about vampires, has little bearing on the observable phenomenon that the explosion of science fiction, UFOlogy and speculations about other life in the universe occured conveniently at a time when religious observance dropped precipitously.

Neither am I conflating you with the Tingey-class positivistic atheism. Mr Tingey has an abrasive manner, makes rude and sweeping judgments about others and may have some emotional issues with religion, but the core of his argument, no matter how crudely formulated and stated, that as an individual he is not required to believe in anything without what he considers to be evidence is, for me at least, a logically consistent and valid, if not unassailable stance. So, no, I'm not picking on you, nor on atheism in general.

What I was chewing on ...in general, impersonal, airy-fairy terms... is a hobgoblin of mine about transferability of cultural trends. I have bloviated in the past about how European antisemitism didn't just disappear into a black hole after WW II, but that its religious and racist justifications, it's "energies," transferred into "anti-Zionism" with the creation and success of the Jewish State. In this case now, I speculate that pure atheism, like destruction of energy, does not and cannot exist, because it's a theoretical negation of what appear to be universal and powerful cultural and psychological drives. I argue that "religious energy," observable and measurable in many ways (think expenditures), dissipates into a number of many areas worthy of discussion such as political ideologies or environmentalism, but that the space exploration and ET genre is probably the most easily studied one. We can track its internal trends, calculate its expenditures and count its adgerents.

In many a rambling discussion involving intemperate amounts of scotch, I have called these obvious and concentrated dissipators "our cultural butt-rods"...a clumsy and easily slurred term which nevertheless seem to keept my victims at the table from nodding off. To use a crude analogy, few people ever think about what happens to the kinetic energy when they use their car brakes. They are surprised that it is transformed into heat which then escapes through the drums or disks into the atmosphere...as energy cannot be destroyed. But if you directed that heat into a rod which is then inserted into the driver's butt, everyone would become profoundly and painfully aware of the importance and immutability of the first law of thermodynamics everytime they hit the brakes. I did say "crude analogy," didn't I?

23 December 2011 at 14:21  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "What's this? An attempt to challenge my motives - again? Boring."

I'm not challenging them, I'm drawing attention to them. Do you think you're doing your god's work here? Do you think your interactions with people are in keeping with the Holy Spirit? The homophobic jokes and the intent behind them, the telling of various people to grow up, the ganging up on Len, the use of multiple IDs to back yourself up, and so on? It's intriguing.

"Why don't you ask Him?"

I've no reason to believe he exists. And let's face it, you're a terrible advert for Christianity as far as I can see. If you're a true Christian whom Jesus knows then why would I want to be one?

23 December 2011 at 14:24  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "Whether you are "prepared to allow for a theistic god" (which probably makes you an agnostic) or you like fiction about vampires, has little bearing on the observable phenomenon that the explosion of science fiction, UFOlogy and speculations about other life in the universe occured conveniently at a time when religious observance dropped precipitously."

I present myself as an atheist because I'm right in front of you and you're talking about what you think atheists think. I can actually tell you what this atheist thinks, based on the principles around atheism. I think I'm pretty representative too.

I'm not an agnostic. There's a range of different positions beyond the simplistic ones often thrown about. Agnostic is usually meant in conversation as simply being unsure or having an vague belief or not even thinking about it much. I have no theistic belief: I disbelieve in Jesus, Allah, Brahma-Shiva-Vishnu, YHWH, and many others. Saying that is not the same as saying I believe there is no god.

But anyway. The explosion of science fiction occurred when our understanding of science allowed us to imagine reaching for the stars. It's an military-industrial-scientific thing, I expect. That religion played a less dominant and oppressive role in our lives probably played a part too, not least because people could think more freely out in the open.

23 December 2011 at 14:40  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "In this case now, I speculate that pure atheism, like destruction of energy, does not and cannot exist, because it's a theoretical negation of what appear to be universal and powerful cultural and psychological drives."

I've speculated about something related here a number of times. It's been my personal observation that religionists find it hard to conceive of people being content to simply die completely at the end of life, and to conceive that people have local meaning which is satisfactory to them even when there is no universal meaning, and that they imagine the lives of atheists are 'dark' and 'empty' in the absence of their god (of whatever flavour). I have a hypothesis that the brains of religionists are inclined to a belief in god and religion whereas the brains of people like me are not. Of course, people can still be socialised into religion, especially if the religion is dominant and oppressive as it was in the UK a few hundred years ago and alternatives ways of viewing the world were not readily available.

23 December 2011 at 14:48  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Dodo, the data is squarely and undeniably in the public domain. There may have been some laughable and easily dismissed procedural regulatory or policy "violation," but the data is not private and is not stolen. It will be a laugh when Foia reveals himself and with everyone on the take ready to crucify him, the cops and judges will have to scratch their heads, not knowing how or why. Put it this way: If I had the data, I would release it publicly without a second thought and fight whatever petty regulatory violation fine the best and the brightest may be able to concoct.

You seem to misunderstand the issue of public and private domains, Dodod. If these EAU types were stupid enough to forget that they were discussing ....on an institutional and public server and the taxpayer's dime... how to suppress and hide data, to block FOIA requests, manufacture consensus through threats and to blackball researchers through a buddy-system peer review process, that is their problem.

So far, university departments, government agencies, police and judges in the UK and the US have been able to whitewash the gross corruption of these and other "scientists," but such this trend is unlikely to continue. Senators in the US are gunning for the Attorney General, whose antics stink to high heaven, and looking at the participaing universities, your Lord Monkton is patiently filing away and the failure to intimidate TallBloke, the bloggers and the skeptics with a vague warrant and a crowd of plods is backfiring with a drive for an investigation into the role of the police and judiciary. Eventually there will be dismissals, huge fines and penalties and even jail terms for some very big and important people all over the world, and it won't be Foia, the bloggers or skeptics on the receiving end. "Feck'em in the heart," as a lawyer friend likes to say.

And as for your worries about Russia a few posts back, it's Russia that has most to lose, when "frakking" for gas begins in earnest all over Europe and the North Atlantic. And Canada will gladly build a trans-Atlantic pipeline to the UK for its oil sands and gas as well :)

23 December 2011 at 15:14  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJ0, these are fun topics I want to get back to ASAP. As things are, I'm covering for several Christian brother truckers so that they can be with their families tomorrow and will be busier than the proverbial one-legged man in an arse-kicking contest.

Just a quick note though. One, I for one don't assume atheists live bleak lives, having been one for a while, and I cannot imagine a situation where religious and non-religious people have substantially different brains, or even worldviews. Belief and faith, be it in political ieologies, social or other causes is in practical terms, indistinguishable from beliefs in what we call supernatural phenomena, theism or "sky fairies," to borrow from Tingey. Such things appear to be a collateral by-product of our overly and perhaps even unnecessarily big brains. Gotta go, but check here again in case I have idle time for philosophising whilst waiting for holiday-decimated warehouse crews to unload my trailers.

For now, a happy Hanukkah, a merry Christmas, season's greetings, jolly Festivus for the Rest of Us, or pleasant vacation time to all!

23 December 2011 at 15:36  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "I cannot imagine a situation where religious and non-religious people have substantially different brains"

Oh they wouldn't have to be substantially different. Just an inclination one way or the other, really. Possibly an interplay of a couple genes, perhaps helped along by the environment.

We might all be a bit prone to it anyway and not only because we're self-aware. We're a pattern-matching species. It's strong enough that we tend to see patterns even when none exist.

23 December 2011 at 17:05  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0

I save my empathy, non-judgemental and non-directive approach for friends, family and for my professional dealings. I decided a long while back that this blog requires a rather different modus operandi.

Let's take you. Most discussions start with you pontificating on the basis of Secondary School moral philosopy and end with you resorting to personal and somewhat obscene abuse. Why waste my time? Might as well cut to the chase and just begin with the abuse!

Consider your own motives. Your claims for agnosticism just don't sound convincing. Hell, even your defence of the moral basis for homosexuality lacks real conviction. See, the problem is you cannot allow yourself to believe in God without also letting go of acting on your sexual preference. Of course, I'm speculating but that seems to be part of your issue.

" ... I have a hypothesis that the brains of religionists are inclined to a belief in god and religion whereas the brains of people like me are not." You also believe you have limited, if any, control of your sexual preference.

When you stand before God will you say: "You gave me a brain predisposed towards towards atheism and a sexuality predisposed towards sin. It was your fault, not mine"? God will very likely remind you of a few things offered to you to offset these imagined insurmountables obstacles.

I'm not trying to convert you or set an example of Christian conduct. I'm fighting the spread of the amoral, aggressive secularism you peddle. With you the best way is to just take the p*ss. Your true self surfaces more rapidly this way without the dance of fruitless debate.

23 December 2011 at 17:21  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Why waste my time? Might as well cut to the chase and just begin with the abuse!"

If only it were just me then that might perhaps be plausible. But anyway, that may be your inclination to be abusive and ungodly but you don't have to act on it you know. You have Free Will, you could abstain. ;) What you need to do is think What Would Jesus Do? Hope that helps.

"Hell, even your defence of the moral basis for homosexuality lacks real conviction."

That's odd. I claim sex in itself is not a moral act at all. It's at the core of my argument, really.

23 December 2011 at 17:36  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0 said ...

" ... they (brains) wouldn't have to be substantially different. Just an inclination one way or the other, really. Possibly an interplay of a couple genes, perhaps helped along by the environment."

See what I mean? Amoral, simplistic, socilogical tosh!

An inclination towards: homosexuality, promiscuity, adultry, alcoholism, drug addiction, violence, rape, pedophilia, thieving etc all inborn?

Yeah, its called a general condition of sinfulness, an absence of holiness and perfect charity, into which all humans are born. Reinforced or checked in childhood by early formation and then in adulthood helped or hindered by the prevailing culture and the exercise of free will.

Just because you might have a particlar inclination doesn't mean you have no responsibility to straighten up.

23 December 2011 at 17:38  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "I save my empathy, non-judgemental and non-directive approach for friends, family and for my professional dealings."

Yes, clearly:

"For the past 20 years I have worked in the field of mental health and have acquired a modicum of specialist knowledge in a range of dysfunctions, including those that are psychosexual in nature." Dodo, 18 September 2011 12:13

and

"However, you need to be mindful that my background is forensic. I do not adopt a nicey, nicey 'person centred', 'non-directive', non-judgemental' approach." Dodo, 18 September 2011 13:11

Lol. You're actually someone's case history. Go on, admit it. And now they let you push the trolleys.

23 December 2011 at 17:51  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

*sigh*

It's too easy really.

23 December 2011 at 17:58  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. 23 December 2011 06:43,.I'd stand up with religionists if a government tries to force churches to marry people.

The Inspector does recall you posting that such a ceremony was not for you personally. He did think his was an apt comment as of course you are right up front with anything ‘Gay Righting’. One problem is there is no end to the perceived injustices gays THINK they are suffering. Recently, it was announced that the murder of a transgender individual was to attract a minimum term of 30 years. Now that’s twice the going rate for knocking off yours truly. That’s the first instance of LGBTQ being ‘uber alles’ ! Are we going down the road of a ‘sacred’ sect in society whose every whim must be catered for. Ask yourself, is it time you jumped off the wagon and come down against the excesses of the young and stupid who no doubt are the driving force behind the demands…

23 December 2011 at 18:05  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0

You really don't have a clue! Nowadays the work I do tends towards the control of those who threaten the well being of others. In most repects they are beyond change and their behaviour needs confronting and management. Others, more open to change, are treated differently. Clear?

And you really did miss the central point of my response to you. This being that its pointless attempting to break through your wall of secular atheism and socilogical, quasi-genetic, quasi-environmentalism.

What would Jesus do? Well. He's told us.

"Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you."

"And as for those who do not receive you, as you go out from that city, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them."

I repeat I'm not here to befriend you or attempt to try to get you to see things differently. Others have tried and can continue trying. You enjoy the game of debate and rehearsing and reinforcing our closed thinking.

I'm just intent on countering your amorality in the most effective way possible - subject to certain 'rules of engagement' I adopt.

23 December 2011 at 18:25  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

*rolls eyes*

23 December 2011 at 18:30  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

Ah, the spirit of Christmas...

23 December 2011 at 18:31  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

That should read:

"You enjoy the game of debate and rehearsing and reinforcing your closed thinking."

The key point is the enjoyment you gain rather than seeking the truth.

Are you a school teacher?

23 December 2011 at 18:31  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

The Spirit of Christmas ... Yet to Come.

23 December 2011 at 18:46  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. The Inspector is NOT part of a ‘Catholic tag team’ he’ll have you know. As a matter of fact he’s rather hurt right now that his life is only worth half that of a transgender, and one who was working as a prostitute to boot.

Archbishop. Good to see you up again and apparently sober at this time, what !

23 December 2011 at 18:54  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "As a matter of fact he’s rather hurt right now that his life is only worth half that of a transgender, and one who was working as a prostitute to boot."

You're obviously pretty keen to cover this given your raising of it again. Hmmm. Where to start on this one?

How about the purpose of sentencing? You think the sentence reflects how much you are worth as a victim? It's certainly an interesting view! Almost weregild-like.

You know that this bit in the Bill is about so-called hate crime and aggravating factors, right? You know that it is trying to bring in the murder of transgender or disabled people for being those things into the existing legislation in the same area which covers race, religion, and sexual orientation, right? If not then you could simply imaging doubling your 'worth' by claiming you were attacked for your religious beliefs and invite me to complain about your being in a 'sacred' sect too. Without irony in that case, obviously.

I'll just raise an eyebrow at the prostitute thing as I trust many readers will be slightly appalled at the implications anyway.

23 December 2011 at 19:23  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. When capital punishment was abolished, it was on the understanding that murderers received a ‘life’ sentence. When the time span was questioned, a figure of 25 years time served was stated. However, over time, it’s come down to a mere 15 years ! Isn’t your type of liberalism marvellous, what ! It even extends to convicted killers – gives them another chance to kill someone else during their lifespan don’t you know. Interestingly, liberals will tell us that the punishment for the crime has NO influence on whether a murder is committed – able bodied or wheelchair bound. So what’s all this ‘hate crime’ guff ??

Thought you might sweep the prostitution part to one side. It appears that transgenderism and prostitution are inextricably linked. The Inspector would argue that rather than comply with the individuals wishes to change sex, the individual should be treated as a psychiatric patient with anti social attitudes, as they would have been in the past. In the actual case, the murderer was ‘surprised’ to find that the ‘woman’ who had earlier performed a sex act on him was not the woman he thought. If anything, that’s a mitigating circumstance, calling for a lower sentence....

Of course, you could never agree with any of the above, fighting the LGBTQ fight, EVERY BLOODY THREAD as you do, can you...

23 December 2011 at 19:48  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Inspector

A new phobis now graces political correctness - transphobia! We now have a government strategy in place to drive out transgender prejudice. What next - marriage, reissued birth certificates, adoption?

"Hate crimes" are yet to be defined and I'm at a loss to understand why the minimum tariff will double. Is anyone's life more or less worthy than anothers? And a judge can surely apply any determinate or indeterminate sentence according to the circumstances of the particular crime?

Was the case triggering this a "hate crime"? Possibly. It seems Fyle had stabbed another male in 2005 after a "sexual encounter" with him. He claims now he is bi-sexual and at ease with his sexual preferences. Transgender prostitutes are surely in a high risk business with all the confusion driving human sexuality.

23 December 2011 at 19:59  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector, I see you're not at all happy at having the facts of the matter thrown rather jauntily at your prejudices.

*shrug*

I'll leave you to do your own research on the hate crime laws and all that "guff". 2003 is a good place to start.

23 December 2011 at 20:00  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo Fyle has no doubt been worked on by the prison psychiatrists. He will be told that if he nods his head at every theory put to him by some smart arsed 25 year old, he'll be out in 8 years...

DanJ0. Prejudices. A good word to throw at people you don’t agree with. Well Sir, I put this to you. You yourself are PREJUDICED towards LGBTQ types at the expense of normal society that lives decently and quietly and, most importantly, produces the next generation....

23 December 2011 at 20:59  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Inspector, the man is very likely a sexually deviant socio-path. I doubt he'll ever be released.

23 December 2011 at 21:03  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Ps

What's the Q stand for LGBTQ?

23 December 2011 at 21:06  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Spurred on by this site, the Inspector has being doing his research. The Q stands for Queer. This is a category INSISTED upon by types who did not consider themselves LGBT yet aligned themselves completely in that area. Normal people would call them the ‘hopelessly and completely mixed up’. People who should be receiving psychiatric treatment, not acceptance. No doubt DanJ0 would disagree on this...

23 December 2011 at 21:25  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Surely a human life is so precious that anyone murdering someone for any reason be it hate of what they stand for or are, or for the posh jewellery they wear or for whatever other reason, should get life and that means life not 25 not 15 not 7 years, but life.
Our standards have slipped. Murder is murder no matter what. Thou shalt not kill.

If a LGBT life is worth twice that of a non LGBT person that would be fuelling even more hatred towards them. I think we need to get things in perspective here. I too would be very pissed.
Inspector has a point.

23 December 2011 at 21:57  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Marie
Anytime I'm considering a murder I'll be sure to check with the person concerned whether or not they are transgendered - or is it transsesxual or even transvestite?

Inspector
Now a certain sub-group wants to be called 'queer'! All other members of the coalition would run off to the Equalities Commission if we called them this.

Like you I did some research. It seems some want to be called "questioners", others "experimental", and yet others "intersexual".

Queerer and queerer! Imagine the High Court Judge:

"What you say the victim was a *queer questioner*! Just how is that relevant?"

"Oh, he *hated* said *queer questioner*. I see. Well I rather imagine that he did."


And what if the victim is a disabled person who is also a transexual? Is the minimum sentence doubled again?

23 December 2011 at 23:17  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. These odd balls are harmless enough. They can all call themselves ‘Queens’ as far as the Inspector is concerned. What’s rather pitiful is when their lifestyle is to be commended by so called enlightened liberals. So sad when that happens...

23 December 2011 at 23:36  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

@Dodo
Well yes if you did in a black, one legged, transgendered, (had the op) male to female, illegal immigrant, or a transexual (pre op.) or a transvestite (masquerades as opposite sex) possibly confused or questioning weirdo you'd no doubt never see the light of day again. But I guess kill a white, heterosexual Christian father of three children and you'd be out in a few years

23 December 2011 at 23:49  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Marie
I'll keep all that in mind when the need to kill becomes overpowering.

By the way, I think nowadays the technology exists to be transgendered female to male. Don't ask me how!

Inspector
That's the problem, I don't think this group are harmless. They're one more symptom of a deeper malaise. Perhaps theY're the logical conclusion of it short of paedophilia and incest.

24 December 2011 at 00:17  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

And not forgetting beastiality.

For some sex in and of itself isn't a matter for morals. Threy forget it goes to the very heart of who we are and how we express our humanity most intimately.

I understand in Japan one can now visit clinics, rent life like sex-doll for 10 minute periods, have one's way and leave.

Modern love!

24 December 2011 at 00:30  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "Prejudices. A good word to throw at people you don’t agree with."

It's not a question of my disagreeing with you, the basis of your comment concerning value was quite simply wrong. Moreover, your focus on the transgender aspect and ignoring the disability aspect shows your prejudice. Your ignorance of the contents of the Bill and its relationship with the previous Act covering race, religion, and sexual orientation obviously doesn't help either. In short, you royally fecked up start to finish. Mouthing off now to try to cover that up isn't a great image, it has to be said.

24 December 2011 at 05:32  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "If a LGBT life is worth twice that of a non LGBT person that would be fuelling even more hatred towards them. I think we need to get things in perspective here. I too would be very pissed. Inspector has a point."

I think you need to understand the English justice system, sentencing, and the Bill with its related Act. Once you have that perspective then I'm sure things will become clear over the rest of it. We're not all living in Daily Mail Land. I'm a little dubious about the Hate Crime laws myself but at least I understand them and their intent and justifications.

24 December 2011 at 05:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "For some sex in and of itself isn't a matter for morals. Threy forget it goes to the very heart of who we are and how we express our humanity most intimately."

But what does all that fluffy rhetoric mean for morality and sex? On what basis is (say) masturbation a moral act if one is not part of the Catholic Church or does not share it distorted worldview? How are you going to sell it to someone who doesn't believe in your Church's god? Let's hear it.

24 December 2011 at 05:46  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "And what if the victim is a disabled person who is also a transexual? Is the minimum sentence doubled again?"

Dodo, imagine you were leaving your church (big building, probably with a cross or steeple, if you've forgotten what one is) minding your own business and a bunch of Pakistani Muslims suddenly chased you down the street shouting "Kill the fecking Christian!" and "Let's get the Irish bastard!!" then beat and murdered you. This doesn't make you worth double or triple someone who was beaten and murdered outside of a pub in a drunken fight. Forget the Inspector's prejudices here, think what the offence is and what the law is actually trying to achieve. Go to the primary literature. You might also like to note that murdering a policemen when he's on duty also delivers a minimum 30 year term. That's not because a policeman is worth double that of (say) a nurse or a fireman. Something else is going on there, isn't it?

24 December 2011 at 06:14  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0

Do stop prattling on - it's Christmas and I've really no time for all your nonsense. Maybe next year.

Have a joyful Christmas and a peaceful New Year.

24 December 2011 at 11:37  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Inspector

Isn't the central challenge for us to accept the person whilst rejecting their sin? Accepting the person doesn't mean bending our values and reshaping society to accomodate unacceptable and immoral behaviours. Stigma, guilt and shame have been removed from our culture and behaviours that in the past were condemned are now embraced under the banner of 'freedom' 'liberation' and 'diversity'.

Let's hope 2012 sees the tide turn.

24 December 2011 at 11:45  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Do stop prattling on - it's Christmas and I've really no time for all your nonsense."

Of course you haven't, at least for difficult questions and revealing comments anyway. At any time of the year. Stick to the trolling, abuse, and homophobia, at least you can just about manage those. ;)

24 December 2011 at 12:13  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0

So touchy .... You never make any original or pertinent points; just go over the same old old ground repeatedly in an attempt to justify yourself.

Do have a read above @ 23 December 2011 17:21.

24 December 2011 at 13:12  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I'll probably make the point again when you try to talk about sexual morality and you can try to ignore it again too by blustering away afterwards. If you're very lucky then you'll be able to appeal for help from another Catholic to make up for your deficiencies. Again.

24 December 2011 at 13:23  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0

*rolls eyes*
*shrugs*

Are you a heterophobe?

The pertinent points have been made ad infinitum by Albert amongst others. As I have said, I'm just not interested in engaging in discussion with you. In the end you resort to personal abuse and then make an obscene comment. So do run along and find a buddy to play with.

Haven't you got a Christmas dinner to prepare or presents to wrap?

24 December 2011 at 14:10  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "As I have said, I'm just not interested in engaging in discussion with you."

No, clearly not, but you want to goad and troll to seek attention nonetheless as this whole sub-thread shows. Though by observation you prefer to do it in a gang, with you hiding behind the skirts of others when the going gets tough. You're just a snivelling, contemptible, toady, weak-minded oik of a man.

24 December 2011 at 14:25  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

p.s. Merry Christmas. ;)

24 December 2011 at 14:25  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0

Oh, I think you've rather proved my point.

Bye, bye ... and do try to remember, big boys don't cry.

24 December 2011 at 16:35  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0.In short, you royally fecked up start to finish.

Most brilliant strategy. When your arguments are weak, why not cast doubt on your protagonists sanity. {INSPECTOR PAUSES AS HE WIPES FROTH FROM MOUTH}

Regarding the Hate Crime legislation, have you never heard of ‘judges guidelines’. It’s what the judge has with him while he sits in the high chair. More than enough to cover the scenario of being chased and murdered for whatever. It’s all unnecessary legislation. Our lives should be equally precious under the law – not some more equal than others.

Dodo. Don’t be too hard on him. He’s fighting his corner single handed. Because he takes the contrary view every time, he’s also learning things about himself. For example, he probably hadn’t given much thought to mixed up men who masquerade as ladies of night to fulfil their sexual fantasies, and end up getting murdered. Now he can’t voice support for them enough. Perhaps he is a little disgusted with himself for having found himself in that position; don’t expect we’ll ever know...

24 December 2011 at 17:06  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "Regarding the Hate Crime legislation, have you never heard of ‘judges guidelines’."

How bizarre. I really think you need to reread the sub-thread. It was you who brought it up. Twice. It was you who misunderstood what it meant. It was your mistakes throughout. I haven't actually defended the legislation, in fact I said that I was dubious about it. What I actually did was point out your mistakes and misunderstandings and ignorance of the law. Dear oh dear, you're getting as bad as your tag team for holding onto an argument.

"Now he can’t voice support for them enough."

Where? Have you been on the communion wine or something? I haven't said anything of the kind, I've simply explained the legislation as a matter of objective fact. Facts you don't seem to know or at least let get in the way of your prejudice.

24 December 2011 at 19:37  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo, it's Christmas Eve: An important Christian religious festival. Catholics will probably be attending Midnight Mass tonight after thinking of holy things. Yet you're spending the day here trolling and checking you're the centre of attention. Think on that, huh.

24 December 2011 at 19:41  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dash it DanJ0, beaten by a superior intellect and argument. Will the Inspector ever learn !

Have a good one, old chap...

24 December 2011 at 20:07  
Blogger len said...

Danjo,

Jesus condemned no one excepting the self righteous Pharisees.The only perfect being who could have judged anyone and everyone judged no one. Those who judge(unrighteously) place themselves in the dock(so to speak ) and their crimes will be examined in a Higher Court.

The ministry of Jesus was one filled with love and compassion I hope one day that you and others will have a revelation of that love and the path to salvation.

God bless you.

24 December 2011 at 20:14  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Danj0
Merry Christmas.
I was reading this http://www.justice.gov.uk/news/press-releases/moj/newsrelease081211.htm

24 December 2011 at 22:09  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Marie
Thanks for the link. The Inspector will be relieved that heterosexality is covered under sexual orientation (when did it change from preference?). So too our faith and racial origins. However, DanJ0 should be concerned about the ommission of atheists. Is this evidence of atheiophobia towards a minority group and should there be an Action Plan to address it?

Inspector
Don't be too harsh on Destiny Lauren, the murderd pre-operative transsexual prostitute, born Justin Samuels. I've known a number of prostitutes, some transsexual, in my work not theirs, I hasten to add. Each has their own 'story' and the motivation for their lifestyles is varied. I've often expressed the opinion the 'profession' should be made illegal with zero tolerance for provider and user.

len
Now you know what Jesus meant when he warned us about judging others without first being aware of our own sins and flaws. Whilst He didn't expressly condemn, He was clear about how we should live and He certainly didn't condone sin. The Gospels are full of warnings about the Final Judgement.

A relationship with Christ is most often preceeded by an awareness of one's sinfulness and helplessness. Repentance, a metanoia, a changing of one's mind, and through this AN embracing of Jesus. Thereafter, one has to grow in one's faith and develop a unity with Christ and with His Church.

It does not serve God's purpose to stay silent in the face of evil and sinfulness, especially when our society and, indeed, some churches, are 'normalising' the immoral.

24 December 2011 at 23:32  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "I was reading this http://www.justice.gov.uk/news/press-releases/moj/newsrelease081211.htm"

Yes. In the light of that, the transgender thing, and the claim about differing values, here is shown for what it is.

25 December 2011 at 07:56  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "However, DanJ0 should be concerned about the ommission of atheists. Is this evidence of atheiophobia towards a minority group and should there be an Action Plan to address it?"

For heaven'sake, Dodo. Sometimes it's better to stay silent and let people wonder if you're ignorant than open your mouth and prove that you are. You've really no idea what you're talking about.

25 December 2011 at 08:04  
Blogger Benjamin of Wight said...

Well I will be celebrating The Nativity on the 25th December - which is the 7th of January for all you heterodox out there.

Pax Omnibus

25 December 2011 at 12:10  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Marie & DanJ0. Link reviewed. How about scrapping this special treatment and implementing 30 year minimums for ALL murders. That way decent moral folk won’t have to campaign for equality with the ‘sacred sect’ (...or zoo types, depending on your point of view...)...

Dodo. Weak inadequate sorts have a lifetime to perfect their hard luck stories and excuses for their behaviour. That’s very often anti social behaviour. Let them take their chances in life just like everybody else. Have an idea many of them FEED off compassion – no time for them personally...

25 December 2011 at 12:44  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

DanJ0
My, you were on the computer early. Hope Santa called by and you had some nice presents to open. Did you get a little cowboy outfit to wear complete with a six shooter?

Inspector
You really shouldn't be so dismissive towards towards those less fortunate than yourself. In my experience there is no such thing as "them" and they're not all "weak inadequate sorts". Each person is unique with their own experiences.

Benjamin of Wight
For goodness sake, get with it. The Gregorian calendar has been with us since the 1580's! Do catch up.

25 December 2011 at 19:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. It’s not a question of ‘those less fortunate than yourself’. These people take their chances along with the rest of us. Of course, they could IMPROVE themselves; a popular notion in Victorian times, but liberals today spend so much time assuring them they are valued and respected oddballs, so that's lost on them. Rather surprised to find the Inspector has to point this out to you...

25 December 2011 at 19:35  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Inspector
I guess Joseph and Mary did fine against the odds with their baby without too much human assistance!

What you say applies to some people, not to all of those needing assistance. You're not suggesting the Victorian Poor Law was better than modern approaches to need?

25 December 2011 at 20:18  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. It’s all about standards, Sir. Standards are everything. Without them, we descend down the shute of degeneration and perversion. Sadly, the standards of marriage have already collapsed for the lower intellects, and increasingly for the middle classes. And you don’t need material wealth to maintain standards either. I’m sure Mary and Joseph would agree. And what I say is applicable to ALL, short of the mad...

25 December 2011 at 20:33  
Blogger Dodo the Katholikos Dude said...

Inspector
I agree we need standards, based on a moral code. The degeneration and perversion you refer to are actually being spear headed by the elite of our society, not the "lower intellectuals".

You do need to have basic needs met in life as a foundation for adulthood - shelter, food, love and security. Many, and not just the "mad", don't have these needs consistently met.

I'm not a 'liberal' - just basing my observations on the human misery I've witnessed in the course of the past 30 plus years in public service.

25 December 2011 at 21:43  

Post a Comment

<< Home

Newer›  ‹Older