Saturday, December 10, 2011

“Europe is entering Croatia”


Not content with Croatia entering the EU as the 28th state, signing his accession treaty Croatian President Ivo Josipovic told the heads of government of all 27 current members: “Today Croatia is entering Europe, but more importantly Europe is entering Croatia.”

His Grace can scarcely bring himself to visualise the violation. And yet the continent is named after Europa, who was herself raped. Perhaps it's a case of doing unto others...

Croatia has spent seven years negotiating away her sovereignty, hindered by a few territorial disputes with Slovenia and a couple of trivial allegations of war crimes. Nothing that time couldn't heal.

But His Grace has a question. Really, it is a genuine bemusement.

Croatia is more Catholic than the Pope. Okay, not quite. But the population does declare itself to be c80% Roman Catholic. Pope Benedict XVI has been a passionate advocate of Croatian membership of the EU.

Now that the text of his 'prayer for the euro' (as reported by Jon Snow C4 News) may be seen to have been nothing of the sort (naughty Mr Snow), we do get an insight into his primary spiritual concerns:
Therefore the People of God, as pilgrims throughout time, turn to their celestial Mother and seek Her help; they ask that She might accompany them on their path of faith, that She might encourage them in their commitment to Christian life and sustain their hopes. We need this support, especially in this difficult moment for Italy, for Europe, and for many parts of the world.
This is not a prayer for the euro, but it is a prayer acknowledging the economic morass into which Europe is fast sinking, which has been brought on by the euro. So, why would the Pope, at this precise 'difficult moment', be desirous to see Croatia (not without her own difficulties) burdened with even greater difficulties, which may even lead to civil war?

80 Comments:

Blogger Manfarang said...

The European Commission will cut aid from 2014 to 19 emerging economies.
The decision was reached within a context of broader changes to the EU's external spending as it adapts its long-term budget planning to tighter financial conditions and the rise of such rivals on the global economic stage. (AP France)Brussels

10 December 2011 at 09:47  
Blogger graham wood said...

"So, why would the Pope, at this precise 'difficult moment', be desirous to see Croatia ......." as a member of the EU"

I think the question you rhetorically pose is one that has historic precedent, and one that has deceived European nations for many centuries.
Behind it is the assumption on the part of successive Popes and the pretended authority of Rome, that these have a claimed jurisdiction over nation states.
Historically Rome's reach extends OVER and beyond that of the legitimate authority of the people through their elected representatives.

Presumably Ratzinger still has illusions about the existence and legitimacy of the "Holy (sic) Roman Empire" so characteristic of what we call the Dark Ages.
He should not. In effect therefore he is centuries out of date, but the illusion continues.

10 December 2011 at 10:04  
Blogger bluedog said...

Your Grace, within recent memory the break-up of Yugoslavia led to a civil war. Croatia was an active participant in that war and became independent as a result.

It therefore defies belief that these people should be celebrating their accession to the EU just as the EMU is about to implode, taking the European banking system with it.

Your communicant believes it will take more than a blessing from Pope Benedict to soften the pain of the resulting euro-poverty. But then your communicant is not a Roman Catholic and therefore may be completely wrong on this point.

Still, on a positive note, when the nations of Europe start scrapping over strategic resources and population enclaves, the Croats may be able to eke out a living as mercenaries.

Their skill at killing is undoubted.

10 December 2011 at 10:12  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Mr ABC said ...

"This is not a prayer for the euro, but it is a prayer acknowledging the economic morass into which Europe is fast sinking, which has been brought on by the euro."

Really? Not by my reading of it or the context! It was a homily given to mark the feast of the Immaculate Conception. It was a plea for the worldwide Christian Church in the face of persecution - not an acknowledgement of Europe's economic morass!

The Pope's primary spiritual concern is for the worldwide Christian Church. The address was about the Christian Church and was a message of hope based on trust in Our Blessed Lady.

Mr ABC said ...

"So, why would the Pope, at this precise 'difficult moment', be desirous to see Croatia (not without her own difficulties) burdened with even greater difficulties, which may even lead to civil war?"

Are you sensing a plot here? Some conspiracy to have poor old Europa pulled beneath the waves and raped?

Croatia applied for European Union membership in 2003, long before our current economic woes, and the Vatican has always backed their entry. The Pope supports their entry as a Christian nation that has always been part of the continent of Europe. Croatians are fearful of a loss of national identity and of an over centralised bureacracy. The Pope has urged them to make it their mission to fight against this.

10 December 2011 at 11:31  
Blogger Manfarang said...

"Your Grace, within recent memory the break-up of Yugoslavia led to a civil war"-and the war crimes, the killing Krajina Serbs and the shelling of their towns and villages were not trival.

10 December 2011 at 11:45  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
Your post states; ‘Croatia is more Catholic than the Pope. Okay, not quite. But the population does declare itself to be c80% Roman Catholic’. Graham Wood said; ‘the pretended authority of Rome…..centuries out of date, but the illusion continues’. There is no doubt in my mind that all Roman Catholics give homage to the Pope and Rome. In a country of 80% RC there will be a significant number of adherents in the Government and therefore allegiance to Rome will automatic.
BTW: Is the Vatican City a member state of the EU?
As a Protestant believer, I can easily believe that some Christians will consider that association with Roman Catholics has to be better than association with non-believers. Whilst I can see a measure of wisdom in that I generally have my doubts and cautions and take for my argument that Jesus associated with the poor and said “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven”. He had little but criticism for the religious people of the day. He generally only spoke to them when he saw that they had a genuine interest to learn from him. It was religion that prevented the Jewish leaders from acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah.
Religion (including Idolatry and Iconography) or anything that takes the attention away from the Son of God to works and a so called Christian Lifestyle is a deception more deadly than any association with the world and its ways. It is written; ‘You Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life’….’ yet you refuse to come to me to have life’. That is what religion does, people prefer the stuff but not the giver of the stuff.
It is natural that the Pope wants more Catholics in the super state of Europe. That way he and his church can subtlety exercise greater influence. My prayer is that Catholics have their eyes opened to see the truth in the real person of Jesus.

10 December 2011 at 13:00  
Blogger English Viking said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 December 2011 at 13:07  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Graham Wood

Do you not believe the Christian message trancends nation states? That laws of men and nations can contradict and be in opposition to the will of God?

Popes and all Christian leaders surely have an authority over the "jurisdiction" of nation states when the "legitimate authority" of the people pass laws that sanction acts contrary to the Gospel? They have a responsibility placed upon them by Jesus Christ - as do all Christians.

10 December 2011 at 13:14  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Viking

No Mary is not worshipped as a goddess. Its all a little bit more complicated than you would have it, I'm afraid.

In his homily, the Pope reflected on the text read to celebrate the Immaculate Conception.

"Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. ... And she bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and to His throne."
(Rev. 5, 12:1-2)

Catholics believe this refers to both the Virgin Mary and to the Christian Church.

The Pope said:

"In part, "the woman of the Apocalypse is Mary ... the symbol of the luminous robe clearly expressed a condition referring to Mary in all her being: She is 'full of grace', filled with the love of God.

"The moon beneath her feet symbolises death: "Mary is fully linked to the victory of Jesus Christ, her Son, over sin and death... just as death has no power over Christ resurrected, so by the grace and singular privilege of omnipotent God, Mary overcomes death. This is made manifest in the two great mysteries of her existence: at the beginning, the conception without original sin, the mystery we celebrate today; and at the end, her assumption in body and soul in Heaven".

"The garland of twelve stars "represents the twelve tribes of Israel, and indicates that Mary is at the centre among the people of God, in full communion with the saints. And thus, this image ... brings us to the second grand interpretation of the celestial sign of the "woman clothed with the sun": as well as representing the Virgin, this sign indicates the Church. She is with child, in the sense that she carries Christ in her womb and will give birth to him on earth ... and it is precisely for this reason, that She carries Christ, that the Church meets the opposition of a fierce adversary, represented by a dragon which seeks to destroy the son, but in vain as Jesus, through death and resurrection, ascends to God.

"Therefore the dragon, defeated once and for all in heaven, turns to attack the woman - the Church - in the desert of earth. But in every age the light and strength of God have supported the Church ... and thus, through all the trials She encounters over time and all over the world, the Church suffers persecution but is always victorious".

"The only evil that the Church must fear is that sin of Her members. While indeed Mary was Immaculate, free of any stain of sin, the Church is holy but at the same time marked by our sins. Therefore the People of God, as pilgrims throughout time, turn to their celestial Mother and seek Her help; they ask that She might accompany them on their path of faith, that She might encourage them in their commitment to Christian life and sustain their hopes. We need this support, especially in this difficult moment for Italy, for Europe, and for many parts of the world. Mary helps us to see that there is light beyond the mantle of fog that appears to obscure reality."

10 December 2011 at 14:19  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

“Today Croatia is entering Europe, but more importantly Europe is entering Croatia.”.

Another mouth to feed. Just as well the UKs daily bleed has increased from £ 45 to 51 million to pay for it. Another petty state out to see what it can get for nothing. Collapse of the EU can’t come quick enough....

10 December 2011 at 14:42  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Dodo the deluded........
Sorry old chap, there is no comunication with the dead/departed. The Holy Sprit is our only guide.

10 December 2011 at 14:45  
Blogger English Viking said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 December 2011 at 15:16  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Viking: "In an earlier reply that didn't make it, I wondered if Mary was omnipresent."

I can still see it:

"[...] evidence of the fsct that the RC 'church' consider her a godess, ie. omnipresent?"

10 December 2011 at 15:34  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Viking. The Inspector sympathises. Much of what we believe in is lost to public view. Avoid head pain by not thinking about it too much, like the Inspector, who believes ‘in good faith’ what he’s told...

10 December 2011 at 15:39  
Blogger Oswin said...

Under whatever interpretation of the 'Golden Rule', new or old, can the likes of Croatia be admitted? Even allowing for it being the wealthiest of the old Yugoslav states, it is beset with problems, with high levels of unemployment...watch-out for a new wave of migrants!

10 December 2011 at 16:01  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Viking

(I will listen to that music when I get a chance. Is iyt on Youtube?)

Revelation 5:8 indicates that the saints in heaven do intercede for us. So how much more Mary?

Now to your problem, as we don't want your head to hurt. If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then your worry would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe.

But the Mary and the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.

This does not imply that the Mary or the saints in heaven are omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. Surely the saints in Revelation receive, understand and pass on the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.

Apologies, but your problem here is one of what might be called a primitive view of heaven not an accurate appreciation of what heaven is like.

Mr Integrity

Youve fallen in my estimation, which wasn't too high to begin with. Where do you think dead people go? Are they still in the ground? Even the saints? The bible contradicts you!

Of course one should pray directly to Jesus. But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well - includingOur Blessed Lady and the saints.

Ultimately, the "go directly to Jesus through the Holy Spirt" objection falls. Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. In 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11).

Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

The intercession of fellow Christians — which is what the saints in heaven are does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship.

In 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4).

Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

10 December 2011 at 16:17  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

*is pleased to be an atheist after reading all that tat*

10 December 2011 at 16:58  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

DanJ0

Yeah, I guess it's a Christian thing. You either have faith or you don't.

Funny thing, whenever I read your witterings on sexual morality, I have the reaction and thank God I believe in Him.

Tell me, do you get a cheap thrill on here proudly telling us all about your homosexual proclivities?

10 December 2011 at 17:32  
Blogger IanCad said...

YG; Re; Civil War,

General Dempsey, chief huckster for the F-35 JSF can see his bonus slipping away. This obsolete piece of junk illustrates all that is wrong with the US military budget.
Wasteful, institutionalised and wholly political.

10 December 2011 at 18:16  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Dodo, I am grateful that I have fallen in your estimation. It must mean that I have done something right. I hope that I go lower still until you are illuminated by the light of the Spirit in the knowledge of light and dark.
Yes; we must pray for each other and for our leaders. You quoted 1 Timothy 2: 1-4. But v5 says; ‘For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;’ we therefore can’t ask anyone else in heaven to mediate for us.
Attempting to contact the spirits is sorcery, which is witchcraft, and is forbidden by God..
I am also minded of the story of Lazarus and the rich man who died and wanted Lazarus, who was in heaven with Abraham, to comfort him in hell. Luke 16; Abraham tells him thus;…..’between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead’.
Mary, the mother of Jesus was a special woman, chosen of God, but she was still a woman and went on to have other children after Jesus. Although not recorded, she died like any other mortal person and is in no way omnipresent nor mediating for the saints.
Intercession is vitally important and as I said in an earlier blog, the saints, as co-workers with God, must pray in accordance with his will, not as per our wishes or desire. Try at this stage to pray for yourself that God might enlighten you.
My prayer is that you can turn that great intellectual mind of yours to use for a brighter purpose.

10 December 2011 at 18:38  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

DanJo; I too would be put off by all the baloney that comes with religion. I doubt if you are a real atheist, otherwise you would not waste your time at this site. More likely you are a reluctant agnostic. So look at nature all around you and its intricacies and wonder how it came about. Then in all honesty transcend religion and feel the presence of a Devine being. He will make himself knowm to all that seek him.

10 December 2011 at 18:48  
Blogger UKIP said...

Bribery and Croatia:

http://www.ukip.tv/?p=2157

10 December 2011 at 19:20  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Tell me, do you get a cheap thrill on here proudly telling us all about your homosexual proclivities?"

Dodo, you're an embarrassment at times.

10 December 2011 at 19:40  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Mr Integrity: "Then in all honesty transcend religion and feel the presence of a Devine being. He will make himself knowm to all that seek him."

I look around at all the people who claim they personally know the presence of a divine being and I wonder why it doesn't seem to make many of them better people. In fact, there are a significant number who seem to be worse than the godless. I find that very curious.

"I doubt if you are a real atheist, otherwise you would not waste your time at this site. More likely you are a reluctant agnostic."

I'm afraid I am an atheist. I am without a belief in any god. Nothing has made contact. I'd be surprised if something did but I'd welcome an attempt nonetheless. I have no doubt a god could do so soon enough if it wished to.

Moreover, the idea of the intercessions of saints and stuff disturbs me. Is the god of these people swayed by the number praying on someone else's behalf where otherwise it would not be. I find the notion quite bizarre and a little disturbing. Or have I misunderstood the principle?

10 December 2011 at 19:48  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

As if this were not bad enough, the economy remains in dire straits. Last year GDP contracted by almost 6% and this year it may shrink by 2% (though next year’s budget cheerily assumes growth of 1.5%). Zeljko Rohatinski, governor of the central bank, says that Jean-Claude Trichet, the president of the European Central Bank, warned him recently that Croatia is on the road to “catastrophe”. The government has begun to make spending cuts, but these fall far short of what may be required to prune an overgrown public sector.

Croatia in 2009. Another basket case crawls over and joins the EU. Rather reminds the Inspector of little girls bringing run over cats home, only for them to die in the kitchen...

10 December 2011 at 20:01  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Integrity said ...

"Attempting to contact the spirits is sorcery, which is witchcraft, and is forbidden by God."

You sound like len and take the same liberties with the Gospel.

Has God forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11? In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it — for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration.

What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits:

"There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed"
(Deut. 18:10–15).

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead.
Anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and humbly praying for assistance. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a prayer to God on our behalf.

Mary, the mother of Jesus was a special woman, chosen of God, but she was still a woman and went on to have other children after Jesus.

Not so. This has been addressed earlier. Mary remained ever virgin and had no other children.

"Although not recorded, she died like any other mortal person and is in no way omnipresent nor mediating for the saints.

The Catholic Church has no fixed position on whether she died, but teaches she was Assumned into Heaven at the end of her earthly life.

And of course she in not omnipresent, this being an attribute of God alone. Did you bot read my response to Viking?

"Intercession is vitally important ... the saints, as co-workers with God, must pray in accordance with his will, not as per our wishes or desire.

Mary and the saints lay our petitions before God. The proviso accompanying any prayer is surely "... not my will but thine be done." It doesn't stop us asking God for assistance - Christians have been so for millenia.

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read:

"(An) angel came and stood at the altar (in heaven) with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God"
(Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that:

" ... the twenty-four elders (the leaders of the people of God in heaven) fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints"
(Rev. 5:8).

The simple fact is, as this passage shows, that the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

10 December 2011 at 20:36  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

DanJo; You are right in that I know a lot of godless people who are a lot nicer than some religious people, so I understand your plight. Yet there seems some hope for you in that "but I'd welcome an attempt" you said. Be careful of what you say as it might just happen. Poor Dodo is so caught up in his sad RC world that he can't see the wood from the trees.

10 December 2011 at 21:34  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Integrity

So gone on then - respond.

You know your earlier post was flawed. Like most of your ilk, once the discussion moves away from trite little formula you get confused and just hurl insults at the Catholic Church.

10 December 2011 at 21:45  
Blogger len said...

Dodo ,You are contradicting the Popes here is that allowed?.

10 December 2011 at 22:02  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 December 2011 at 22:05  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

I say Integrity, some of us are more than happy with the splendour that is the RCC - what !

10 December 2011 at 22:07  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, how does Mary hear millions of prayers a second and then mediate those prayers before God, while protecting, guiding, helping and meeting them at the hour of their death?
Sounds pretty fantastic to me.

10 December 2011 at 22:11  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len

You are in a spikey mood tonight. Talking an awful lot but saying nothing as usual.

Clearly you didn't read my reply to Viking's very same question.

Heaven is "pretty fantastic" and not subject to the same conditions as here on earth, nor are the glorified saints. Have you never contemplated the celestial city?

Anyway, here is the answer given earlier:

" ... If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then your worry would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe.

But Mary and the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.

This does not imply that Mary or the saints in heaven are omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. Surely the saints in Revelation receive, understand and pass on the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.

Apologies, but your problem here is one of what might be called a primitive view of heaven not an accurate appreciation of what heaven is like."

Get it now? Now do try to develop a mature theology wider than the simplistic mantras you cling to. In turning your back on 2000 years of theological study and development you are missing out on so much. Not that its necessary to know. Its just when you attack what you don't understand it becomes a problem.

Just remember St Paul taught the gifts of the Spirit are distributed amongst God's people and it would be wise to consider the rich treasures of teaching.

10 December 2011 at 23:38  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Mr Integrity said...

'Dodo..
My prayer is that you can turn that great intellectual mind of yours to use for a brighter purpose.'

Dear fellow, Ernst hopes you are being slightly sarcastic or you must see something that others fail to on a regular basis. ;)

Are you chief examiner for those EdExcel people by chance, who say about their GCSE test 'There's so little content we don't know how we got it through' *Guffaws*. Ernst is being slightly sarcastic, lad.

Ernsty, me fine fellow.

Office of Inspector General declared stoutly @ 10 December 2011 22:07

"I say Integrity, some of us are more than happy with the splendour that is the RCC - what !" Well, are/were not the 'religiously inclined' delighted in the sleight of hand tricks from travelling conmen and clap vigorously as their pockets are lightened of their contents as they journey home with some of the breast milk of Mary or a small vial of her tears whilst standing below the cross or even a small piece of the swaddling clothes of baby Jesus. Splendid Indeed!

St Doddy the Bovine stated

"" ... If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then your worry would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe.

But Mary and the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.

This does not imply that Mary or the saints in heaven are omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. Surely the saints in Revelation receive, understand and pass on the prayers they are shown to be offering to God. "
What a load of pretentious gibberlike guff! Surely the ducktorate was given for agriculture and not divinity studies as Ernst has never come across a finer spreader of Moo-nure in his life. The degree title, is it B.Sht.(Agr.)?

Perhaps Ernst should rename you 'likkle bag of doody'

Ernst

"Its just when you attack what you don't understand it becomes a problem." PRICELESS! If Irony was an olympic event, that Gold medal would be a given!

11 December 2011 at 00:01  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Dodo; Is that all you want to do, online rhetoric. I could easily waste my time responding to statements and quotes that are so far removed from reality, they don't deserve to be answered. Maybe one day I will take issue with on some of these matters but there are far more useful things to do with one’s time. I have more time for the lost that need salvation than trouble myself with those lost in the fog of religion and no desire for a route out.
Forgive me for choosing to avoid further contention at this time however I would say that there are those in the RC church that are more enlightened about the 'Splendour' of religion as the Inspector puts. For too long the leaders of the churches have cloaked the fundamentals of the Christian faith in a cloud of mystery. This may have been to maintain their positions in the church and the submission of the people to themselves. Not letting the people have access to the Bible in case they understood it is an example, they might have then realised that they had been deceived.
I have no desire to knock the RC Church, only their false beliefs. By so doing, some may be freed from the bonds of deception that keep them bound and unable to understand fully the Grace of God. I too admire the grandeur of church music, the archetecture and even the regalia sometimes, but I know that they are mere trappings and not a substitute for a real relationship with the Lord of life.

11 December 2011 at 00:12  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

E.xtra and Tiddles; I am wondering if you are one and the same. It might seem that you have had the benefit of several lives and write with the benefit of hindsight.

11 December 2011 at 00:22  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Integrity said ...

"For too long the leaders of the churches have cloaked the fundamentals of the Christian faith in a cloud of mystery."

And now doctrinal and moral anarchy reigns with anyone and everyone claiming 'inspiration' from 'sola scripturs'.

"This may have been to maintain their positions in the church and the submission of the people to themselves. Not letting the people have access to the Bible in case they understood it is an example, they might have then realised that they had been deceived."

That's one possible interpretation. Another is that the unschooled, rebellious and misguided would spread confusion, resulting in the spawning of numerous sects and cults.

"I have no desire to knock the RC Church, only their false beliefs"

Since the Church stands or falls by its faithfulness to the Gopel message this is a tautology. You really must be specific. Its not rhetoric when you make such an unjustifiable claims.

"I too admire the grandeur of church music, the archetecture and even the regalia sometimes, but I know that they are mere trappings and not a substitute for a real relationship with the Lord of life."

And that's the only coherent comment you've made. Is that really what you think Roman Catholicism is? Obtained it from 'The Protestant Dummies Guide to Rome', did you?

11 December 2011 at 01:16  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Ernsty

Now you claim special, extra biblical insight into Heaven? You really should study your bible more closely.

11 December 2011 at 01:28  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Dodo; Our dear host went to the flames of fire protesting that the teachings of Rome were wrong. I can do no more than defer to his unflinching greater understanding than mine.

11 December 2011 at 01:42  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Integrity, one wonders what the genuine Archbishop would make of the Catholic and Reformed Church of England in the 21st century and the unforeseen consequences of the continental protestant reformation.

11 December 2011 at 02:03  
Blogger Manfarang said...

The Vatican uses the Euro.
On the question of the Virgin Mary I wonder whether the original Greek word should be translated young woman.

11 December 2011 at 03:02  
Blogger Manfarang said...

The rest of what was Yugoslavia wants to join the EU which makes sense because of the way it was linked up.

11 December 2011 at 03:06  
Blogger Auriel Ragmon said...

Possibly not germaine to any of this, but I ask:
"How many euros does the Pope have?"
Can the Vatican bail out any of the deficient nations?

11 December 2011 at 04:59  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Mr I: "Yet there seems some hope for you in that "but I'd welcome an attempt" you said. Be careful of what you say as it might just happen."

Well, I don't mind at all if it does. I'm not the same sort of atheist as our Mr Tingey appears to be i.e. a positive-atheist. I'm not certain there is no god or gods, that would be irrational. I'm pretty sure a creator of our reality is not going to be as people here expect it to be but other than that I happily allow a space for something even though there might not need to be a space.

11 December 2011 at 08:13  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

DoDo the Deluded said

"The Catholic Church has no fixed position on whether she {Mary} died, but teaches she was Assumned into Heaven at the end of her earthly life"

For such a central character to the myth and there being so little record or testimonial evidence suggests the Mary Myth is pure invention and nothing more.

11 December 2011 at 10:17  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I'd love for her tomb, including bones, to be found just for the furore it would cause. :)

11 December 2011 at 11:22  
Blogger len said...

Auriel Ragmon, Bankers' best guesses about the Vatican's wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion.Also loads of investments throughout industry and Banking.

The Vatican do not seem keen to put out accurate figures cannot think why?.

Also the Vatican pays no taxes(apparently)

11 December 2011 at 12:07  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Len; As I understand it, the Vatican city is a seperate nation state. Why is is the Vatican City not a signature to the EU treaty?

11 December 2011 at 13:29  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Messrs Blofeld, Integrity, Len, Dodo

WE ALL have to admit we’re not given an awful lot when it comes to the workings of heaven, only the bits the Holy Spirit has divulged to chosen mortal men and women, and of course what the Christ has told us. The mass majority of it is lost to public view, as it most surely should be.

The Inspector, a humble soul before God, believes the way to salvation is to accept Jesus and his teachings, and apply them to the world we live in. Plus adherence to a Christian church to remind us, as well all need reminding at times, of our Christian obligations. Respect should be given to that individual and WHATEVER church he feels comfortable in. When it comes to intelligent believers as ourselves, NO apostatising should be attempted. (...Len, write that down will you and keep it next to your keyboard...). However, as we all strive to do what is right, no harm can come from pointing out differences in dogma. The truth must always be allowed out.

11 December 2011 at 13:44  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

It's a disgrace for Christians to stand by whilst others sneer at the validity of the Virgin Birth and openly mock Our Blessed Lady and the Communion of Saints. Even worse, to witness and stay silent at the scorn shown by some for the mystery of our Triune God which diminishes the wonder of the Incarnation and undermines the Passion of Christ.

Throw stones at Rome, they'll survive but, for your own sakes, do show respect for God and for the Mary, the mother of our Saviour, the Second Person of the Trinity, God and man.

11 December 2011 at 13:49  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo

Agreed, our religion should be approached with humility and respect. And of course, we will have our opportunity to ‘explain’ at our individual judgements. Now there is a fearsome thought !

11 December 2011 at 14:00  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Get over yourself, Dodo, for goodness'sake.

11 December 2011 at 14:03  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

DanJ0

You would say that, wouldn't you!

11 December 2011 at 14:21  
Blogger IanCad said...

O.I.G @ 13:44 wrote---

"NO apostatising should be attempted"

What a fine citizen of Saudia Arabia you would make. No robust disputation for you then?

BTW. Thanks for the HTML tips you kindly gave a few threads back.

11 December 2011 at 14:43  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo, I'm looking forward to when Mary etc is pushed to the back of the drawer again and you reveal a sudden and all-consuming passion for the next Catholic topic which someone you want to impress and latch on to brings up and fights over. I can hardly wait.

11 December 2011 at 14:43  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

IanCad. The Inspector did qualify his statement and restricted it just to the Christians he addressed...

One final HTML tip. To post a link.

< a href= ‘the http link’>‘then the word(s) you want’< /a >

Just take out the spaces except between 'a href', and don't use the single quotes...

11 December 2011 at 15:00  
Blogger IanCad said...

OIG.

Thanks for pointing out the qualification. I take it then, that I am thus excluded from such strictures?

Now you have made it so easy to post a link I am tempted to do so, and often. I believe however, that HG would visit foul scorn upon any of member his flock who would do it more than once or twice.

11 December 2011 at 15:34  
Blogger Span Ows said...

UKIP (10/12 19:20) has posted the link to Nigel doing his bit (I presume it is that video) telling how there is no free press in Croatia and an award being offered for anyone who could find an anti-EU article in ANY Croatian media. They have already been "abducted", EU flags everywhere, Croatian bigwig corrupt politicians already bought-off.

point of order, no rape really although it is sometimes called the Raptus in Roman version.

11 December 2011 at 16:02  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

DanJ0 said ...

"Dodo, I'm looking forward to when Mary etc is pushed to the back of the drawer again and you reveal a sudden and all-consuming passion for the next Catholic topic which someone you want to impress and latch on to brings up and fights over. I can hardly wait."

What a shallow life you have if this is what excites you!

Mary will never be pushed to the back drawer and as Roman Catholic doctrines are always relevant, concern higher truth and are frequently misrepresented, will be defended with passion.

11 December 2011 at 16:09  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

IanCad. The Inspector had just come in from the cold and wet, saw internecine fighting and dismayed ! Never mind...

He would think the link is to be used only occasionally and to inform, lest the Archbishop turn on the miscreant ! The Inspector has yet to use it, fearful as he is of what might happen...

11 December 2011 at 16:13  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

O, come on, everyone, it should be obvious who the driver behind Croatia's incongruous invitation is. It's not just the Vatican, or Dodo's maudlin joy over another good Catholic state plumping up the EU. The big push could have come only from one source. That would be the one with the long and solid historical connections to Croatia, the one who pushed for its independence first and most vigorously, the one which hosts one Croation embassy and five of its consulates and the one who even helped out with weapons, intelligence and volunteer fighters in the bloody Yugoslav wars.

So, you needn't be puzzled, Oswin. And Inspector, don't you worry about this here pussycat when it gets carried into the kitchen; it will be nursed to health very lovingly and with the best medicines and latest geegaws personally by...your kindly tante Merkel, was?. The bigger mystery is why the Bosh suddenly needs this kitten's sharp and nasty little Ustashe-emblazoned claws precisely at this time and at that particular location. Whatever the reason, I just wish the piddly remnant of my fellow Jews there, all 400 of them, would start packing already...ditto for the much larger Serb and Roma communities.

11 December 2011 at 19:15  
Blogger bluedog said...

Indeed Mr Avi @ 19.15, there you have it. The godfatherland at the birth of Croatia is undoubtedly the principle sponsor of accession to the EU. Repaying old favours or just facilitating access to the Mediterranean?

11 December 2011 at 19:47  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Bluedog, hmmm, acess to the Mediterranean, that would be another little bonus, ja? Didn't think of that one.

Strange events have been occuring in Euro-land of late. Your Cameron wines and dines Turkey, while Germany and the Vatican appear to be cobbling together an interesting "Catholic belt" in the south. One, coincidentally I'm sure, flowing nicely into the Austro-Hungarian basin and resembling Charlemagne's (or more aptly perhaps, Karl der Grosse's) empire and even, dare I say it, the Third Reich's the latter which, btw, happened to be the sire of Croatia as a geopolitical entity. And wherever one's sympathies in the former Yugoslavian conflict may lie, we should remember that the union was broken up by Croatia before Tito's body grew cold, with the well-known assistance from Germany, with open and unchallenged by the Vatican blessings from Croatia's Catholic Church, and with an army wearing fascist Ustashe insignia before whilst cleansing out more then a quarter of a million Serbs.

Coincidences all, I'm sure; the cheerful blue flag of the EU flies over Croatia now, the "most European" of the Slavs, and few minor bumps, like growing neo-fascism and total control of the media can't get in the way of a good idea....or historical momentum.

11 December 2011 at 20:21  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Avi. Can’t see Croatia being allowed to be anything other than an EU satellite. A second division player as indeed will be the UK’s fate, unless we get out and reassert ourselves as a world power. Be an equal to the EU, not subjected to it.

11 December 2011 at 20:33  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Yes, it will be a satellite, Inspector, but one that has a very cozy and special relationship with one of Europe's paymasters in the lean days ahead. One more little satellite, one with proven military "accomplishments" no less, and one more pawn aligned against the UK, btw. Another reason why you folks need to turn your eyes towards your former colonies before they lose their connection with the home country, and tpwards your best and only true friend, Uncle Sam. Well, assuming that the current president is on his way out and Sir Winston's bust is returned to the Whitehouse.

11 December 2011 at 20:57  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Avi
The Balkans have always been a source of contention between the European powers, particularly Russia and Germany and the Ottomans. The ethnic groups and the religion of Catholics, Orthodox Christians and Muslims were artificially held together by Tito.

I'd keep an eye on the Russians, the big losers from the expansion of the EU. The essential dynamic on the continent behind two World Wars hasn't really changed and Britain's role has always been to avoid a permanent union with any of the main players in an attempt to prevent one becoming dominant.

Isn't it preferable for the Balkans to be tied politially and economically to Western Europe than to either Russia or a reemergent Turkey looking towards Arabia?

It's not a Catholic 'thing', its a geo-political 'thing'.

11 December 2011 at 21:03  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Further on this, Inspector, is it not time to ask why Britain should look east-ward towards the ever-troublesome Continent, rather than toward its historic and logical allies, such as Canada, Australia and the US? We here in Canada are barely hanging on to our connection, with our current government trying to restore it after decades of Liberal party attempts to sever it on all fronts. You can give us back a part of our identity, and we have the open spaces and stupendous reserves of natural and human resources. If Britain cuts out of the Europe, it will not be left to hang, of that I'm sure.

11 December 2011 at 21:06  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Dodo, I'm not saying it's a "Catholic thing." At most, your Church's decision to ignore Croaia's Church during the Yugoslav conflict was a sub-plot in a factional, probably conservative vs liberal, dynamic in the halls of the Vatican. After all, both the US and even Israel bamboozled themselves into inexplicably backing Bosnian and Kosovar Muslims against their former allies, the Serbs. Not that the Serbs were angels, btw, but neither were they the sole demons in the conflict. In this dance it's Germany that leads, not your Church. By reflex, Germany is rebuilding itssouthern economic zone and it's merely flowing back into the old "seasonal wadis" of the "Catholic belt" on purely machiavellian instincts. Germany has done it before.

As for Eastern Europe and the Balkans,absolutely; Russia to the East and Islam to the South should be avoided. But whether the EU will provide the sanctuary and how long it will last remains to be seen.

11 December 2011 at 21:42  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo,Avi. Agreed. Europe is falling back on age old allegiances and interests, and Britain should do it’s bit by having nothing to do with what goes on on the continent. Hopefully, the future EU will see us as the eastward part of the Atlantic identity. The Inspector would rule out abandonment of the UK by it’s former colonies. Blood being thicker than water and all that....

11 December 2011 at 22:02  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

From your lips to the Almighty's ears, Inspector: "...the future EU will see us as the eastward part of the Atlantic identity."

But careful on the second hope: "The Inspector would rule out abandonment of the UK by it’s former colonies. Blood being thicker than water and all that....
."


Yeah. You've no idea what goes on out here. The thrust of the hostility against Britain is led by the educated, upper-middle class sons and daughters of the English, Welsh, Scots and Irish stocks. They are indifferent to their own heritage, in fact often ashamed of it. Britain, especially England, is to them the source of all evil in the world-wide Anglo-sphere; a racist, colonialist, native-killing, slave running, capitalist, warmongering, Islamophobic, polluting, global warming beast. Those who know that the head of our government is actually Her Majesty, resent the fact bitterly and openly and proudly, with a moralist's quiver in their voice, declare their utter contempt for the monarchy. The "supporters" are mainly sentimentalists focused on the pageantry and the celebrity. Every now and then, there'll be some new face in Hollywood, and swoosh, goes their attention. Somebody who knows how to fix all this, should. Soon.

11 December 2011 at 22:57  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Avi & Inspector

Britain can't afford to leave the continent of Europe to itself. How we achieve sufficient influence to keep German ambitions in check is the key question.

The Balkans! What a testament to human savagery in the name of God!

The Serbs were bad, bad boys! Yugoslavia was an unnatural 'state' given its ethnic and religious mix. The Tito-Ranković clique was at the heart of Facist Yugoslavia and Serbs had always sought to reestablish their Serbian Empire. With Slobodan Milošević's rise to power in Serbia the secession of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Macedonia from Yugoslavia was inevitable.

The Croatians were bad boys too! But please do not believe Roman Catholicism drove the Ustashe. It was a Croatian fascist separatist movement; a blend of Fascism, Nazism, and Croatian nationalism in search of a 'Greater Croatia'. The persecution and genocide of Serbs, Jews and Romani people during WW2 was driven by the peverse belief that Catholicism was synonymous with Croatian nationalism and identity.

Let's face it, the history of the Balkans is a bloody mess of Empires, religion and ethnic groups!

11 December 2011 at 23:02  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Avi

The real problem with Canada and the USA is that they never mastered the art of cricket. It is in this game that the hope of humanity lies.

England should in future only trade with those countries that play Test Matches.

11 December 2011 at 23:10  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Dodo, then go with Pakistan.

12 December 2011 at 00:06  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Avi, the are exceptiions to every rule - and they cheat.

12 December 2011 at 00:53  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Nice little article from Douglas Carswell in the Mail today

12 December 2011 at 01:01  
Blogger C.Law said...

I concur with thise advocating that the UK should endeavour to build greater ties, especially trade ties, with countries and blocs outside the EU, particularly Commonwealth countries. However in respect of the latter this will be a hard row to furrow, given the shamenful way we dumped them on our accession to the EU. They have made other arrangements in the meantime and will, quite understandably, look askance at our efforts to renew trade ties. They will require considerable persuasion to believe that we would not be merely using them as a backstop, to be dropped again if our relations with the EU improve in the future.

12 December 2011 at 03:46  
Blogger C.Law said...

s/r "those" and "shameful" - apologies !

12 December 2011 at 03:48  
Blogger Manfarang said...

C.Law
There is nothing stopping Britain increasing its trade ties to Asia.
Marks and Spencers and Boots have a presence there as do many other British firms.
New Zealand trades more with America and Australia provides raw materials to China and Japan.

12 December 2011 at 04:15  
Blogger non mouse said...

Yes, Avi @ 22:57. I've come to attribute much of it to the Frankfurt School - the commies who've taken over the academic world in the Americas as well as in Britain. Aided by the Irish (?IRA/Mafia)they seem to have focussed a widespread hatred on us (esp. racist)- with the usual divide and conquer motive, of course.

And all those people who 'want what we have had' ... they neither can, nor will attain it. For they have no idea of what they destroy: it is beyond their experience or comprehension.

You are right -- the remaining few who know should find ways ASAP: both to preserve an accurate record and to set the tiller straight.

12 December 2011 at 04:26  
Blogger C.Law said...

Manfarang,

I agree and think the UK should, indeed, actively seek greater ties with Asia and other places. I was just pointing out that rebuilding trade ties with some Commonwealth countries will not be as easy as some would like to think.

12 December 2011 at 09:31  

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