Friday, February 03, 2012

Chris Huhne is innocent

What? How can His Grace possibly know that? Word of knowledge? Prophecy? Omniscience? Guess?

His Grace hates to disappoint, but it is none of the above. As much as he would rather like Chris Huhne to be guilty of perverting the course of justice, and thereby face a lengthy term (if not life) in prison, like all British citizens, the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change is innocent until a jury returns a verdict to the contrary.

Some of the reporting around this case is reminiscent of the media frenzy which ensued when the name of an effeminate, introverted, poetry-reading, blue-haired male became associated with the murder of Joanna Yeates. Poor Chris Jefferies was found guilty before he had even been questioned.

Chris Huhne is not effeminate or introverted, and neither does he possess blue hair (though what he does in private is his affair). He may like poetry (though this is unlikely), but he quite definitely gives the impression of being male. The febrile right-wing blogosphere in particular has already found him guilty because he is an odious, left-leaning Liberal Democrat responsible for adding £1000s to our energy bills. To be fair, the fact that Mr Huhne is a politician and there’s something of Jonathan Aitken’s ‘simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play’ about his vehement denials, does elicit greater suspicion.

But this speculation must cease forthwith. Chris Huhne is innocent until a jury of twelve good men and true determine otherwise. He has already lost his honour, dignity and reputation (or what little he had): let us not prejudice due legal process and deny him a fair trial.

212 Comments:

Blogger Sam Vega said...

"But this speculation must cease forthwith."

OK, I'm sorry. I won't do it any more, and I'll tell all my journalist and politician friends to desist as well.

3 February 2012 at 09:50  
Blogger Paul Perrin (@pperrin) said...

No, Huhne is already guilty or innocent - that was fixed when the (fake or genuine) declaration about who was driving was returned.

The CPS will decide if it appears that he may be guilty, and if that possibility is enough for him to be prosecuted.

A jury may then decided if the evidence presented makes him appear guilty beyond reasonable doubt or not.

Being presumed innocent, but under significant suspicion, is not the same as being treated as an entirely innocent man. Otherwise it would be impossible to arrest people or keep people on remand etc.

Even being 'found innocent' or 'found guilty' is just an assessment of the evidence - not the defining of a universal truth.

It ain't perfect but its the best we have come up with.

3 February 2012 at 09:50  
Blogger IanCad said...

What with the abrogation of double jeopardy, the right to trial by jury under seige and now the odious Honours Forfeiture Committee it is but a small step to judgement by edict.

3 February 2012 at 09:53  
Blogger bluedog said...

Your Grace, an electronic vote by readers of the on-line edition of the Daily Mail will be more than adequate determination of Huhne's innocence or guilt.

3 February 2012 at 10:00  
Blogger Jon said...

It's a shame it was Jonathan Aitken who used that defence. He corrupted a rather nice image to serve his own buffoonish purposes.

3 February 2012 at 10:36  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace;
How many other drivers have been subject to such scrutiny over such a long period of time? What was it that brought the matter to the attention of the Police? Was it a jealous rival, political or emotional? Did someone snitch on him?
When a person raises their head above the parapet they need to be aware that they might be subject to assaults upon their person and character. Any other driver or victim of false/real accusation is of no interest to the Media, but a minister is 'fair game' for prejudgement and besmirching of character by association.
As to his protestations, it was Shakespeare who wrote 'Me thinks he doth protest too much'.
You are right however Your Grace that our media has done much to destroy the lives of many innocent people, particularly falsely accused rapists whose accusers remain totally protected. (The reason for that is understandable but unfair on the accused.
This all shows that if one enters public life, one needs to stay squeaky clean.
A need for Integrity!

3 February 2012 at 11:57  
Blogger Bill Quango MP said...

One is unconcerned over his innocence or guilt. It is hardly a major crime.

However his removal from the department of windmills and magic beans is a great relief.

3 February 2012 at 12:05  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Bill Posters is innocent too. Why do so many people display signs calling for his prosecution?

3 February 2012 at 12:14  
Blogger outsider said...

Please spare a thought for the jurors, who will be instructed menacingly by the judge to play an even more artificial legal game than usual. If they behave as normal human beings (which is supposedly why they are there) they will be in contempt of court and themselves liable to imprisonment.

3 February 2012 at 12:32  
Blogger Peter Melia said...

To be sure he is innocent until proven guilty, but that needn't stop us from reading Anna Racoon's interesting article on the man today (be sure to follow the link to the brief biog of his new ladyfriend, but be careful, she uses writs).

3 February 2012 at 13:25  
Blogger Gnostic said...

Huhne resigns.

Break out the champers.

3 February 2012 at 14:53  
Blogger Windsor Tripehound said...

IanCad @ 9:53

You could have added the power of the EU to depose democratically elected Prime Ministers and replace them with functionaries of its choice.

3 February 2012 at 15:14  
Blogger Berserker said...

Huhne is a gonna! This is the man that doesn't care that the green and environmental nutters have added 32% to the average energy bill. Liberals don't care about the poor.

This is the gent who on being told the 32% figure by researchers at Cambridge University told them that they were RUBBISH!

He also said that if household energy costs went up people would just use less fuel. So that's alright then! After all, this is a man who claimed expenses for fluffy dusters!

3 February 2012 at 15:54  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Poetry is the domain of the intellectually elite. I resent the insinuation that poetry reading classifies a person as strange. Poets do not belong to the blue rinse set. That is the domain of the middle class Anglican church devotee.

3 February 2012 at 16:27  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

I hope the taxpayer doesn't somehow end up picking up the tab for his legal fees.
From now on I think he should quietly melt away into the background.

3 February 2012 at 16:58  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace; What a triangle of deceit, deception and perversion.
Chris Huhne was found out and admitted to an extra marital affair with Ms Trimingham, his PR and adviser. They were both apparently culpable of promoting Huhne at an election as a great honest family man (whilst having the sexual relationship).
Ms Trimingham was apparently deeply offended when press reports came out about her previous Civil Partnership to a lady. Ms Trimingham was previously Brian Paddick’s communication chief when he stood for Mayor. Mr Paddick and his civil partner a Mr Petter Belsvik provided a bolt hole, it is reported, for Ms Trimingham to escape to when press interest was at its height.
Where would that leave me if I was a voter in his constituency? How might I believe him regarding his protestations of innocence in the latest police motoring case?
It would seem Your Grace that he has already lost his honour, dignity and reputation long before this recent Case
Is this an example of Liberalism?

3 February 2012 at 17:00  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Oh Mr Integrity, get with the times old chap. These days, that's virtually a nuclear family ;)

I feel a bit vindicated and stupid at the same time with Huhne's downfall. In the leadership election I took the view that he was utterly ruthless and power-mad and that as consequence he was "better the devil you know" to Clegg, who I suspected of being very good at hiding the fact that he was utterly ruthless and power-mad. Got a bit muddled in retrospect - though Huhne has indeed turned out to be "the devil we know"...

3 February 2012 at 17:12  
Blogger Windsor Tripehound said...

There must be something in the air in the Eastleigh constituency. Huhne's immediate predecessor accidentally hanged himself (as you do).

3 February 2012 at 17:21  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Anonymous 'get with the times old chap. These days, that's virtually a nuclear family'.
Why should times change? My book has not changed in two thousand years! My view is that the 'Times' need to get back to righteousness. It is often said that Christianity needs to move with the times but God has not changed since the foundation of the universe. It makes a mockery of God when people try to make religion suite their beliefs and life style. All that does is make them feel comfortable. Jesus came to challenge us so that conviction causes us to change.
Conviction? What’s that I hear people say?

3 February 2012 at 17:47  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Mr Integrity reported ...

"Ms Trimingham was apparently deeply offended when press reports came out about her previous Civil Partnership to a lady. Ms Trimingham was previously Brian Paddick’s communication chief when he stood for Mayor. Mr Paddick and his civil partner a Mr Petter Belsvik provided a bolt hole, it is reported, for Ms Trimingham to escape to when press interest was at its height."

Unlike you to share gossip, Sir! It reads like a Brian farce!

What on earth is going on at the heart of Government? Have they the morals of animals on heat? And no wonder the homosexual and abortion agenda gets promoted so vigourously. Absolute disgrace.

And please, nobody blog "we are all sinners and must not condemn others". I do know that but heaven help us, these people should be setting a good example not committing adultry, sodamy and whatever one calls the deviant acts of lesbians.

3 February 2012 at 18:14  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

His wife must have been well chossed off if she is willing to risk a likely 3 months in chokey and whatever damage it does to her career to see the end of his ministerial career.

3 February 2012 at 18:21  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace. Looks like the patron saint of chancers is going to a bit busy in the next few weeks. On the subject of party politics, which infamous National Socialist does that scowl remind you of...

3 February 2012 at 18:25  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

That gossip makes Nadine Dorries's story look almost run of the mill too. These politicians certainly seem to like complicated personal lives.

3 February 2012 at 18:28  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Didn't she want to be a Labour Councillor not so long ago?

Guess that one's out the window.

@Mr Integrity: nice pun.

3 February 2012 at 20:39  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

They’ll probably stick him with the nonces as he’s well known. “Oh God, I’ve dropped the soap”

3 February 2012 at 20:59  
Blogger English Viking said...

If HG's assertions concerning the innocence of un-convicted men were true, there would be no a single man on remand, would there?

We have men on remand because the evidence against them is overwhelming.

That HG attempts to excuse a lesbian-loving, adultering, lying, despotic piece of shit in the name of Christian tolerance is a disgrace that starts with the 'f' word.

'F' Hughne, the despicable little sh*t.

And let's not confuse Christian tolerance with a weak will, a jelly spine, a love of the status quo, a desire to see the thieving, robbing, lying filthy dross exonerated.


Drop him, as he would have been just 70 years ago, from a stiff rope.

How dare you call yourself Christian, those that cheer the prick.

3 February 2012 at 21:57  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Viking

Hello.

Do calm down my man and try to keep a civil tongue in your head. People with suspect you are a Catholic! Your co-religionists frequently attack the good Inspector and myself for condemning sin and, compared to you, we're pussy cats, never mind being catty-licks.

How are you?

3 February 2012 at 22:07  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Gosh EV that's a bit of a tirade there. So you're not keen on the Huhne man then!

What he does in his private life and who he sleeps with is up to him, but he shouldn't have tried to pervert justice. If he no longer loved his wife he could have just left her and been honest to her about it instead of lying.

There are so many speed cameras milking motorists these days nearly everyone has points on their license. So it's no big deal.
Again with the speeding he could have just taken the fine and ban then hired a driver at his own cost of course (I'm sure he could afford it) for the duration of the ban. Seems he has a penchant for lying, so now he's facing prison.
“Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive”

3 February 2012 at 22:28  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Indeed. Huhne has been served the bitter fruit of a woman betrayed and scorned. No wonder the DPP acted. Serves him bloody well right.

The Inspector understands that when you go to prison, they ask you if you are or have ever been a practicing homosexual. The way prison is nowadays, the ask you the same question on release !

Good evening Viking. Was it 28 days this time ?

3 February 2012 at 22:29  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Dodo
You are right, I am not one for gossip but my report was to show that when deceit, sin and lies are entertained by an individual, they sure can get caught out and lose all. The links with Mr Paddick, who Huhne admired, along with David Laws and the Liberal’s policies on the Gay issue, all show that there’s not just one apple to sour the barrel, but there are many.

3 February 2012 at 22:33  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Inspector
I wouldn't wish a homosexual encounter or 'discovery' on my worst enemy (well, maybe .... no, no!).

Mr Integrity
There is no sense of shame, guilt or stigma these days. That's the fruit of a "liberal, 'understanding' approach and, dare I say it, this "we're all sinners, lets not condemn others" theology that abounds.

This sordid little tale and the parts played by its various actors, has its root in sexual licentiousness.

"A fish rots from the head down." Just look at our so called leaders!

3 February 2012 at 23:02  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Marie

You sound like a very kind and understanding lady. Bless you. You remind me of a very sweet aunt - and I mean this kindly.

Lets be honest, Huhne isn't the first and won't be the last to pull this stunt with speeding cameras - not that I'm prejudging the outcome of his trial.

3 February 2012 at 23:08  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Dodo: the fairly rabid attacks on Catholicism that go on here are pretty shameful. Can I ask your forgiveness if anything I've written in the last couple of days has seemed like an attack (veiled or otherwise)?

The internet has the advantage of allowing us all to hide behind monikers, but one of things that becomes clear from reading this blog, is that both the author and his communicants are for the most part people who care about the bedrock issues of public and private morality. His Grace's efforts for Aaron Biber following the riots last summer did more than any blog to remind me that there are, behind even the most entrenched online persona, "real people", and consequently real souls.

The Iron Lady got it right with "What we think, we become" (though I believe someone called Buddha might have had a similar notion once). So I'm writing this not to cultivate a "holy joe" persona, but because I don't want what I've written about what I think to be a cause for dismay or discouragement to whoever you are "behind the Dodo". Or "behind the Inspector" for that matter - though that's enough getting behind you all for now.

3 February 2012 at 23:46  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Belfast

Good gracious, you've never offended me and I count you as a Christian friend despite our denominational differences. Indeed, you and one or two others, Preacher and Carl spring to mind, have quite rightly rebuked me for some of my less considered comments.

As you say blogging takes some adjusting to and my 'persona' as a challenging, unreasonable and somewhat obnoxious 'old bird' does take over at times. That said, I have been surprised at the animosity towards Catholicism I've encountered from fellow Christians - and secular atheists.

I truly love my faith and would defend it to the death, with God's help, if need be. This sometimes leads to me being less than considered in my remarks - we're all human.

So absolutely no need to apologise unless you've made a veiled attack I've not just not noticed! I can be obtuse on occassions as our host has pointed out.

4 February 2012 at 00:06  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

“All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become.”
(Budha)

“Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.”

(Anon)

4 February 2012 at 00:11  
Blogger English Viking said...

OoIG,


Yes it was.

You are not so stupid as you look.

BTW For all my wickedness, I'm not half on this fecker. Nor those that bleat for him.

4 February 2012 at 00:20  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Belfast

If only we had a fuller record of Jesus' teachings.

"You have heard that it was said to them of old: You shall not kill. And whosoever shall kill, shall be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment ....

You have heard that it was said to them of old: You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

4 February 2012 at 00:33  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Viking

Welcome back. I would have extended your rest for up to 6 months!

4 February 2012 at 00:38  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

Dodo; good to know there's a common accord if not a common denomination. I continue to think that the grilling that His Grace's communicants give one another may yet be edifying to the soul. I've certainly had to revisit my own views on occasion, and never to my detriment.

You know, when I read teachings like the ones you posted there, it's as if all the crap and all the politically-fuelled disputes that dominate public reporting of modern Christianity suddenly fall into perspective. Jesus calls us all to the highest and purest kind of life.

Heh. Captcha is "scire" (to know). Blogger obviously knows something.

4 February 2012 at 01:28  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Viking. You really ought to give Guinness a go. You get the alcoholic warmth and, in the Inspector’s case, a soporific effect. If it wasn’t for the need to empty his bladder, he’d nod off. If you don’t like the taste, persevere. And remember, it’s a man’s pint...

Hope the day finds you well Belfast.

4 February 2012 at 01:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Well, it seems there's a gay angle to every story here and it always seems to be the most popular one too. Lol.

4 February 2012 at 08:17  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

AIB: "In the leadership election I took the view that he was utterly ruthless and power-mad and that as consequence he was "better the devil you know" to Clegg, who I suspected of being very good at hiding the fact that he was utterly ruthless and power-mad."

Perhaps I'm being too cynical here but isn't that how and why people become ministers? By being ruthless and power-mad, I mean. It's rather like those who reach the tops of large companies, there are bodies littered all along the way. Even seeking to be an MP is a little bit suspect since it suggests one wants to organise the lives of others.

4 February 2012 at 08:29  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

And, of course if we are going to talk about Tory politicians, does anyone remember this unsavoury list of crroks and liars?
....
Aitken, Archer, Parkinson, Maudling, Profumo, and worst of all ... Marples ??

What was that about casting stones?

4 February 2012 at 09:18  
Blogger len said...

Of course in God`s 'courtroom ' we have all been pronounced 'guilty 'whether we accept it or not.

If we keep protesting our innocence we are calling God a liar.

Of course the solution to this predicament is to accept Jesus(not the church or any religious system) as Saviour as He is the One who accepted our guilt and took the punishment in our place!.

4 February 2012 at 09:58  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr DanJO @ 08.29 said 'Even seeking to be an MP is a little bit suspect since it suggests one wants to organise the lives of others.'

Don't agree.

MPs I have known have been unassuming, altruistic, keen to serve in order to try and make a difference, and in political career terms, unsuccessful!

On the other hand, there are certain personality types for whom power is a goal in itself and the medium for their progress could be a company, a bank, the civil service etc. Cameron is a classic example of the type, no career or personal achievement prior entering politics, and apparently only capable of tactical and political thought. Almost certainly a glib, cynical and extremely bad constituency MP.

4 February 2012 at 10:39  
Blogger Willie said...

You Grace.
Whilst accepting the proposition that a man or woman is innocent until found guilty by a jury, what is the name of that (probable) sin that makes one feel the need to oil the trapdoor, knit a very special fitted silk rope and volunteer to operate the lever?
I am hoping for asomething better than sanctimony...

4 February 2012 at 10:45  
Blogger Windsor Tripehound said...

G. Tingey said...
What was that about casting stones?


Interesting to read Tingey quoting from the book he described as the fairy tales of bronze-age goatherds.

4 February 2012 at 11:31  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

Because that is how YOU are supposed to behave, according to YOUR rule-book.
Actually, what do I find?
Vituperation, outright condemnation, spite, intra-christian rivalry (yes, I know thr RC church is unmitigatedly evil, but y'all loopy amyway) etc ad nauseam.

A fine show of christian charity.

How amusing.
How hypocritical.

And you didn't even notice.

4 February 2012 at 13:32  
Blogger Oswin said...

A certain air of frenzy abounds today; and that before a siting of a lone Viking prow!

Cressida de Nova @ 16:27: ''poetry is the domain of the intellectual elite'' - thank you! I specialise in the 'Vogon' form, and look forward to reading you some, soon. Perhaps I might lure you to my Wednesday night readings? 'Black lace/blue-rinse' optional. ;o)

4 February 2012 at 14:11  
Blogger Oswin said...

Moonpie: I winced whilst reading Windsor Tripehound's retort - oh no, the Kraken will awake! :o)

Mind you, yours was fair comment; as was your reply, in parts. Although I suspect that W.T. gently sprung your trap, a tad?

Yes, a little Christian charity would not go amiss; and you are right to say so.

4 February 2012 at 14:26  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Oswin. Best save Christian charity for those that deserve it, the repentant. He’s up against a very serious charge that could land him in prison for years. Let the justice system run it’s course, then we’ll talk about Christian charity...

4 February 2012 at 14:39  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

'Bill Posters will be Prosecuted'

I say, I say, I say, Bill Posters is innocent and all charges should be dropped forthwith.

4 February 2012 at 15:07  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

They tried, but I don't pay through the nose for a decent brief for nothing.

You probably won't need it, but a word of advice; never, ever, say anything under caution. They have to prove you are guilty, not the other way around.


Marie,

No, I don't like him.


BTW I nearly checked out today. Rolled the car, finished upside down in a ditch. Broke my shoulder (again) and my thumb (again).

Feck me I thought it was over.

4 February 2012 at 15:07  
Blogger Oswin said...

Inspector: Does 'Christian charity' not then accord, in some measure, with awaiting the verdict of the court?

4 February 2012 at 15:10  
Blogger English Viking said...

Oswin,

My Christian charity is all used up with these gits.

I'd hang him, if I had half a chance.

What an utter ****

4 February 2012 at 15:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Oswin. Christian charity should be a precious gift, dolled out to the deserving. At the moment he’s in receipt of an equally precious article, the benefit of the doubt. We await to see if the benefit was deserved or not.

4 February 2012 at 15:23  
Blogger Oswin said...

English Viking: shouldn't you be basking, for want of a better word, in the joy of your continued survival; albeit a tad mauled?

4 February 2012 at 15:26  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

EV you shouldn't be driving with your condition. Get a driver or a cab.

4 February 2012 at 15:37  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Viking

Maybe God is trying to tell you something. Do remember its your beloved cats that have 9 lives. You must be a sore trial for your Guardian Angel!

I've only been arrested the once and just spoke the truth. Mind you, I was innocent if a little 'under the influence'.

4 February 2012 at 15:40  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace;
So many Christians feel that it is wrong to point out the sin in others. (We are all sinners and fall short… Judge not, that ye be not judged.) This is what is said. To me, this is a wet liberal attitude to matters that should be dealt with full on and a misunderstanding of the scripture.
The People's New Testament states;
Judge not, that ye be not judged. Mat;7. The term judge is used in more than one sense, but Christ's meaning is plain. What he designs to prohibit is rash, uncharitable judgments, a fault-finding spirit, a disposition to condemn without examination of charges.
Also Matthew Henry’s Commentary states;
We must not judge uncharitably, unmercifully, nor with a spirit of revenge, and a desire to do mischief. What have we to do, thus to judge another man's servant? Counsel him, and help him, but do not judge him.
The purpose of judgement is an act of charity towards the person judged that they might take note and change their ways. As long as this is done without malice and without an attitude of ‘greater than thou’, judgement is an essential part of chastening the brethren.
We must not forget that in Acts. Ananias and Sapphira died when they were confronted with their deceit.

4 February 2012 at 15:54  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Inspector said ...

"Christian charity should be a precious gift, dolled out to the deserving."

Before our resident Chief Priest responds and says not one of us are deserving etc, etc, thought I would.

True Christian charity is unconditional. I'm a member of a fraternity who helps those in trouble. Even though we do make some rudimentary checks I suspect we're frequently conned but I'd rather be a fool for Christ that turn someone away who is in genuine need away.

The benefit of the doubt, a kindly thought or word, costs nothing and sometimes people do grow into the person you reflect back to them.

However, when they don't and their words or actions are causing harm or distress, then smack them down for the good of others.

4 February 2012 at 15:59  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Viking. Any last words before you take your place in Eternity ?

Oh, yes, here’s something you might want to get word perfect...

The Lord is my shepherd,
I shall not want;
He makes me lie down in green pastures.
He leads me beside still waters;
He restores my soul.
He leads me in paths of righteousness
for His name's sake.

Even though I walk through the valley
of the shadow of death,
I fear no evil;
for You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
all the days of my life;
and I shall dwell in the house of the
Lord forever

4 February 2012 at 16:02  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. The Inspector commends Intergity’s excellent post...

4 February 2012 at 16:07  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Mr I: "So many Christians feel that it is wrong to point out the sin in others."

It doesn't really help anyone though if the 'sinner' is not a believer. For instance, no doubt a muslim thinks drinking alcohol is haraam and therefore a 'sin' of sort. Now, muslims can be as sanctimonious as they like about it but I don't think drinking a few beers in moderation is a 'sin' at all and I have no intention of listening to them. However, if they or anyone else catches a muslim drinking then it may well be a good thing to remind them that what they are doing is inconsistent with their professed beliefs. That's edification.

4 February 2012 at 16:23  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Viking: "BTW I nearly checked out today. Rolled the car, finished upside down in a ditch. Broke my shoulder (again) and my thumb (again)."

Glad to hear that you're still checked in!

4 February 2012 at 16:25  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Inspector said ...

"Dodo. The Inspector commends Intergity’s excellent post..."

Most certainly an excellent post. And sin in all its forms should be identified and the sinner admonished.

4 February 2012 at 16:52  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Huhne says he's innocent. No doubt he's going to engage Mr Loophole, Nick Freeman then.

4 February 2012 at 17:09  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I'll tell you what, it's flippin' cold outside. Snowing now, too. In fact, I'm all up for a debauchery session (muslim version) tonight. I have a 2006 Puligny Montrachet that Shaitan is whispering to me I should drink in front of the warm fire. It's that combination of fleshiness and raciness with sophistication and breeding that makes my pulse race. Naughty, I know. Sinful, even. And even better knowing that someone, somewhere is outraged that it's happening given they think it's haraam.

4 February 2012 at 17:13  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "Huhne says he's innocent. No doubt he's going to engage Mr Loophole, Nick Freeman then."

I expect the main evidence is the recorded call and the text messages. That's not going to look good in court, Freeman probably needs to have it thrown out before then.

4 February 2012 at 17:16  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Oswin, I am not familiar with Vogon poetic form. It sounds vaguely connected to viagra or English Viking,in which case I am not interested.

Your Wednesday soirees may appeal to English Viking and Dodo. Unfortunately prior engagement prevents me from attending such an enthralling event.

4 February 2012 at 17:31  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Dan Jo; Tell me where you are and I'll pop round for a glass.
On second thoughts, it is cold out and I've just got out of hospital after a week with pneumonia and the wine might not be a good mix with the antibiotics.
Perhaps another time, and it won't be me condemning you for that.

4 February 2012 at 17:32  
Blogger English Viking said...

DanJ0,

Nice that you're bothered.

Marie,

I haven't got a condition, apart from a few breaks. You're not still going on about the drinking thing, are you?

OoIG,

I know all sorts.

I particularly like the stuff about not walking in the counsel of the ungodly.

TBH I didn't have time to pray. It was all slow motion, so much in so little time, hyper-reality.

If I ever have chance for a few last words, it would definitely be 'I'm sorry'.

4 February 2012 at 17:37  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Viking said ...

"If I ever have chance for a few last words, it would definitely be 'I'm sorry'."

Pray God we all have the opportunity to utter those words.

4 February 2012 at 17:42  
Blogger English Viking said...

Dodo,

I do.

4 February 2012 at 17:53  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Cressida

What are you implying, Sir?!

Vogons are ugly, brutish creatures with green skin. A mindlessly bureaucratic and aggressive species. The most unpleasant race in the Galaxy, in fact! They may be to Oswin's liking, certainly not mine!

"Oh freddled gruntbuggle
thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
Groop I implore thee, my foonting turlingdromes.
And hooptiously drangle me with crinkly bindlewurdles,
Or I will rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!"


I'll grant you their 'poetry' has a strangely Celtic or Norse air about it. But its not to my taste.

Vogon Captain: "Now choose! Either die in the vacuum of space or... tell me how good you thought my poem was."

4 February 2012 at 18:04  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Viking

Me too.

4 February 2012 at 18:05  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Mr Integrity. Here’s something that might be of interest to you. A year or two or three back, the Inspector caught the tail end of Stephen Fry (...an alarming thought indeed...). Can’t remember the program’s name but it was something like “IQ”. He debunked the myth that you can’t drink on anti-biotics. Much later when his own tooth mutinied, he remembered this and asked his dentist to prescribe accordingly. Outcome, the Inspector sank his usual half gallon per night over a period of ten days. Tooth fell back into line and the rest of him survived to be able to tell you the tale...

4 February 2012 at 18:16  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

EV
Well you did say in a previous post that you were an alcoholic so, naturally I realised that you were back on the sauce after your passionate posting the other evening. Then you post that you've crashed the car. Glad you're still alive.


Danj0
Nice plonk, I shall be committing Haraam this evening with a red Chilean Malbec from the Central Valley. Good for the heart you see.

4 February 2012 at 18:28  
Blogger English Viking said...

Oswin,

Basking?

At least I wasn't shot, which hurts a shit-load more.

4 February 2012 at 18:32  
Blogger English Viking said...

Marie,

No, I said that others might describe as an alcoholic.

High functioning. That's what I am.

PS The crash was ice-induced, not drink-induced.

X

4 February 2012 at 18:37  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Marie. The Inspector has been on a Guinness run and has brought back 5 x 500ml Guinness Original (must be in glass bottles) at £1 a go. (Paid more for bottled water!) AND 12 year old Glenlivet £22, which is a saintly £10 off. Bottles are gently cooling on the window sill in this room, which beats the fridge by a couple of degrees. God bless you and your descendants, Mr Sainsbury. “Every little helps” as Tesco puts it. No guilt whatsoever, the miracle at Canaan has seen to that...

4 February 2012 at 18:43  
Blogger English Viking said...

OoIG

Your good health Sir.

4 February 2012 at 18:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

And here’s to your continued survival Viking. May there be more grains of sand yet in your hour glass...

4 February 2012 at 18:53  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "Nice plonk, I shall be committing Haraam this evening with a red Chilean Malbec from the Central Valley. Good for the heart you see."

It should be at £34 a bottle! Glad to see I'm not the only one who doesn't care a jot about the sinfulness of certain acts or for the associated judgements. Vive la différence!

4 February 2012 at 18:59  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Dodo
The implication I was making to you Madam, was that you would be better served by loosening the whale bone'd corsetry of your mind by becoming more human (of the flesh and blood variety.)

You are portraying Catholics as rigid frigid unnatural bizarre beings. Stop sprouting a lot of crinkly bindlewurdles and take yourself in hand.

4 February 2012 at 19:02  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Inspector; Thanks for the tip. Please don't shop at Tesco. They have diverted charity giving from a cancer charity to supporting the Gay London Pride March. A dastardly thing to do.

4 February 2012 at 19:05  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Cressida: "Stop sprouting a lot of crinkly bindlewurdles and take yourself in hand."

Noooooo! Haraam!!1! :O

4 February 2012 at 19:10  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Cressida

So you're a homosexual then.

4 February 2012 at 19:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Thanks for reminding the Inspector, Mr Integrity. These marches leave a nasty taste in the mouth, don’t you agree....

4 February 2012 at 19:48  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Dodo
Your obsession with homosexuality is unhealthy. Cleanse your mind of such impure thoughts and think upon geraniums or read the psalms (not the rude bits)

4 February 2012 at 20:13  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

Cressida

My good woman, there are no "rude bits" in the Psalms. How crude of you!

The Song of Songs should properly be understood as an allegory of the relationship between God and Israel, or of Christ and His Church, as husband and wife.

Hippolytus interpreted it as referring to a complicated relationship between Israel, Christ and the Gentile Church. You'll know all about love triangles.

More recently, Pope Benedict XVI in his encyclical 'God is Love' refers to Song of Songs in both its literal and allegorical meaning, stating that erotic love (eros) and self-giving love (agape) is shown there as the two halves of true love, which is both giving and receiving.

Have you no soul?

4 February 2012 at 21:00  
Blogger Dodo the "Poly-Nominal" Dude said...

The soil had so much uranium
It killed my prize geranium.
It would have won shows
But now it just glows
Enough to light up a stadium.

4 February 2012 at 21:04  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Your propensity for 'silly' in verse is quite good.This does not mean you are forgiven.

5 February 2012 at 06:07  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I see health warnings about alcohol are in the news again this morning. With the social rampage in city centres at the weekend, damage to health through things like cirrhosis of the liver, family breakdowns through alcoholism, and deaths on the roads through drink driving, perhaps muslims have it right when they view it as haraam and sinful. With all these social effects and their associated costs in shared institutions like the NHS and the disruption it gives to man's relationship with Allah, perhaps it shouldn't be socially acceptable to drink at all?

5 February 2012 at 10:07  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Cressida

There's no pleasing some folk!

5 February 2012 at 10:57  
Blogger Oswin said...

Cressida de Nova @ 17:31 :

You tease, you!

Was it wholly necessary though, to use both ''English Viking'' and ''Viagra'' in the same sentence? It's really not an image that a bloke wants in his head. :o(

Dodo @ 18:04 : I never thought I'd witness that! I can't now decide whether it was a good, or bad thing; I think I need to lie down for a wee while...

5 February 2012 at 14:37  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Now you are talking like a muslim living here does when trying to justify his faith to others who do not share it.
Everything in moderation of course. People especially the young need educating to appreciate alcohol rather than treating it as one of many substances to obliterate reality with.
Are their lives so meaningless and inconsequential that they need to get out of it most weekends?

I hope you enjoyed your bottle of fine vintage wine by the fire, much better to enjoy just one bottle of the best you can afford than gallons of anything as long as it's got % proof.

Our culture needs adjusting, not usurping by a backward muslim one, which is ten times worse than our few little issues that can be adjusted and improved if breweries, manufacturers and government so wanted.

5 February 2012 at 14:42  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

That was to Danj0 10:07

5 February 2012 at 14:46  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "Now you are talking like a muslim living here does when trying to justify his faith to others who do not share it."

Indeed. Or a Christian. Which is actually the point.

5 February 2012 at 14:52  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Marie said ...

"Everything in moderation of course."

Not everything. Some things are just beyond the pale and the health outcomes far more serious.

5 February 2012 at 15:21  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

*contented sigh*

This must be a bit like Genghis Khan felt like when surveying the utter carnage he'd wrought after battle. It's too easy sometimes. I need more of a challenge.

5 February 2012 at 15:51  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Danj0
No not at all. Islam is not at all anywhere near on a par with Christianity you're just generalising.

Muslims threaten with violence if you don't follow to the letter their ways. Now, no alcohol might be a good idea in a very hot desert country especially during the daytime. But Islam doesn't do moderation does it? I'm sure a lot of muslims would like alcohol banned in this country. How would you feel if that were the case?

Christians advise and teach a better life style through having faith in God and following Jesus' teachings as best as one can. Nobody kills you for not being a Christian now do they? So you just cannot lump the religious all together as weirdos or whatever you call them.

5 February 2012 at 16:03  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Weather still too chilly for your little trips to the heath then Dan?

5 February 2012 at 16:10  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "I'm sure a lot of muslims would like alcohol banned in this country. How would you feel if that were the case?"

Actually, I barely drink the stuff these days. I could happily live without it. But you misunderstand the form of the argument I'm making, I think. Just because someone who is religious thinks something is a 'sin' or ought not to be allowed does not compel the rest of us to take any notice whatsoever. Do you actually worry that muslims think your wine-drinking is bad?

Moreover, there are significant health issues to do with alcohol but almost none to do with (say) sex between two women. We all pay the cost of policing Friday and Saturday nights in our city centres and for the NHS treatment of alcohol-related disease or injury. Including our tax-paying muslim citizens.

You understand I'm not actually having a poke at you here, I'm just nonchalantly trashing duff and silly appeals and arguments as I trundle along, really.

5 February 2012 at 16:21  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie1797: "Weather still too chilly for your little trips to the heath then Dan?"

Actually, I've never had any sex at all with strangers in my life. If anything then I suspect you're much more promiscuous than I am given your past internet statements. Stereotypes are convenient, I know, but they have their limits.

5 February 2012 at 16:25  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Danj0;”With all these social effects and their associated costs in shared institutions like the NHS and the disruption it gives to man's relationship with Allah, perhaps it shouldn't be socially acceptable to drink at all?”

Well I wouldn't expect to see a muslim even a moderate one drinking alcohol here or in their own country the fuss they make.

But perhaps you're right Danj0 we should all give up alcohol. Then maybe muslims here can give up terrorising our society, think of all the money our shared institutions of the police, and the NHS would save then, Oh! and don't forget the “honour” killings which also cost the police and NHS extra to deal with.

What I'm saying is Christians now don't bully and threaten you into feeling guilty for doing something that is prohibited, they try and teach you the benefits of not doing so, and for you to see it yourself.

Danj0;” Do you actually worry that muslims think your wine-drinking is bad?”

Of course not.

But, I worry about promiscuity though, and I'm not.
My argument is not all religion is tiresome, vindictive and violent.

5 February 2012 at 17:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "What I'm saying is Christians now don't bully and threaten you into feeling guilty for doing something that is prohibited, they try and teach you the benefits of not doing so, and for you to see it yourself."

No they don't just try to 'teach' us the benefits, they try to hold up social progress, try to make gay teenagers feel bad about themselves, try to make out being gay and having a sex life is a morally bad thing, and so on. When all Christians embrace celibacy, let them then demand it of gay people.

They make poor arguments about having to share the cost of stuff they don't agree with. They claim an absolute morality as though it trumps every other moral system. They claim they're forced into doing stuff their consciences forbid.

It's all crap. Or, rather, it's the same sort of arguments muslims could readily make in the UK too. As a society, we don't choose to listen to muslims whine on about it. They don't have a special say over law simply because they're religions and they share the tax burden. We should do the same with Christians.

If Muslims don't want to drink alcohol then that's fine but they shouldn't try to force their religious beliefs onto the rest of us. The same with Christians. If the don't want to enter into a gay marriage then fine too but they should let the rest of us get on with our lives.

If a Muslim checkout operator won't handle pork products or bottles of alcohol for others then, dare I say it, he should find a job more suited to his conscience. Similarly with (say) Christian register office workers and civil marriages. Conscientious objection should only apply to direct moral agency and then in extreme cases where they can't simply walk away.

5 February 2012 at 19:06  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Watch out Marie. DanJ0 isn’t after gay acceptance. He’s got that already. Nay, he’s after a “positive affirmation of homosexuality”, and to be imposed by the state, to put us all in our place. When you tag on the front the words “Won’t rest until there is” you have his position in full...

5 February 2012 at 19:51  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

*yawn*

Good evening Inspector, hope you're well. I thought this thread was about Chris Huhne.

How tedious it has become.

5 February 2012 at 20:46  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Too right that bird, some things NEVER go away. You see, it’s all part of an ‘Agenda’ don’t you know...

Court Official “Take the bible in your right hand and read out the words on the card”

Accused: “Erm, Property of the court”

5 February 2012 at 21:08  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Good one.

Q: What's the definition of a lawyer?

A: A mouth with a life support system.

5 February 2012 at 21:31  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Smith climbs to the top of Mt. Sinai to get close enough to talk to God.

Looking up, he asks the Lord. . . "God, what does a million years mean to you?"
The Lord replies, "A minute."

Smith asks, "And what does a million dollars mean to! you?"
The Lord replies, "A penny.

"Smith asks," Can I have a penny?" The Lord replies, "In a minute"

5 February 2012 at 22:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Very good !

5 February 2012 at 23:08  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

How far is this neutralising of society going to go? Will we have to endure blind surgeons to operate on us in the name of equality because it wont be fair on them otherwise. What about women in positions that men naturally occupy that require a man's strength to be successful in?

Why do we have male and female if we were meant to be the same? Why is there a positive and a negative of everything? Why do opposites exist?
Why are some groups of people so blind when they have 20/20 vision?

5 February 2012 at 23:18  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Marie

Are you on the right thread?

5 February 2012 at 23:50  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspetor

It's the way I tell them!

Was very tempted to change the namefrom 'Smith' to a well known pal of ours but resisted.

5 February 2012 at 23:53  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Dodo
Well we've strayed so much off topic and I am getting rather vexed at Danj0's inability to compromise, accept and make the best of societies' differences instead of trying to get us all to be secular and the same. I'm annoyed that he's comparing Christianity with Islam in order to justify and back up his case of becoming totally secular.

I think he and these aggressive groups will only make themselves despised, that they'll end up with no rights at all. People are fed up to the back teeth of them.

6 February 2012 at 00:45  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie, I'm very comfortable with the social and cultural diversity in the UK. I see many benefits in it. I thought I was in a minority here by holdng that position so I'm glad to have you on board. :) However, I think you mistake my position about secularism despite my pointing it out here again, and again, and again, and again. I advocate a secular State but I'm most certainly not pushing for a totally secular society.

I see you haven't really grasped the reason why I'm writing about Muslim religious attitudes to alcohol either despite my pretty much spelling it out for you. Hey ho. It's not a comparison of Islam and Christianity, it's pointing out the response most Christians probably have to Islamic strictures and inviting them to consider secular responses might be similar with regard to Christian strictures. Perhaps if you got your head around my actual arguments, you might not end up so vexed.

6 February 2012 at 11:44  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Also, you may like to dig out some recent surveys of social attitudes in the UK. They tend to show majority support for things like gay marriage these days, you know. We're becoming established. The aggressive groups seem to be the religious ones as their unwanted hegemony is reduced and reduced.

6 February 2012 at 11:55  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Marie

I whole hearted agree with you and your assessment of said person. Why then waste your time engaging in long and fruitless discussion? In the end, he always proves abusive and occasionally rather obsene as past posts testify.

6 February 2012 at 15:06  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Danj0
I am tolerant of cultural differences to a point, live and let live, BUT that point has now been reached.

I do see your argument, but am trying to visualise it in practice and all I see is a state dictatorship emerging. I see the correlation you're getting at with devout Muslims and alcohol are as to devout Christians are with sexuality. But a lot of modern Christians are much more relaxed about sex whereas more muslims are not, and I see that you're treating muslims and christians as equal here. I see you supporting disestablishment of the C of E too. Religion becoming a private thing and fading away. I know the younger generation have little or no interest in learning about Christianity and religion because it is considered out of date and irrelevant by the State and the Church itself has taken a back seat. It's a shame as they are missing out and how will they be able to reject it if they don't really get to know it?

So women clergy and Bishops it is then and homosexual “marriages” in a Church because the state says they have to, as everyone is equal. So if we are to have a state dictatorship would the state give compulsory R.E backed up with Church going once a week to muslims in order that they can broaden their mindset and get to know their host countries culture? Probably not.
I support equality only to a point and relish the differences, embracing the strengths and weaknesses of inequality as in the end it all balances itself out naturally anyway. That's why opposites exist to give the best chance of survival.

Under your unrealistic ideal of a secular State, and I would go as far as to say you secretly want religion banished too, the outcome will not be as you expect!
Don't forget survival of the fittest, so we'll become a muslim state then too because that lot are not going to settle for Islam being quietly private. And you know it.

6 February 2012 at 17:02  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Then why hang around then, Dodo? You're like a bad smell. There was no need for you and your fellow berk to rack up other than to seek attention again and try to cause your usual trouble. The best you manage by way of counter argument is third-person abuse and a few pointless limericks in lieu of something sensible to say. It's risible.

6 February 2012 at 17:07  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Q: Did somebody mention my name?

A: No, nobody of any consequence.

6 February 2012 at 17:15  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "But a lot of modern Christians are much more relaxed about sex whereas more muslims are not, and I see that you're treating muslims and christians as equal here."

In theory, Christians are not much more relaxed about sex at all. The Catholic Church even considers masturbation a grave moral disorder. If you're unmarried then you should be a virgin. If you're not then you'd better be mightily ashamed.

The point I'm making is that Islam and Christianity have concepts of sexual morality then most of us in society have no intention of abiding by. This is not a smörgåsbord of things to pick at one thing and skip over another.

If Christians have some sort of moral high ground over the rest of us on sexual morality because they're religious then why not Muslims? Why shouldn't Muslim men expect you not to show your arms and legs and to cover your hair when you're around then?

"It's a shame as they are missing out and how will they be able to reject it if they don't really get to know it?"

The same could be said for Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and any other religion, you know. Did you actively reject Zoroastrianism as you were growing up?

"So women clergy and Bishops it is then and homosexual “marriages” in a Church because the state says they have to, as everyone is equal."

The State is not saying that at all and neither I am. I say that again, and again, and again, and again. I advocate legalising civil marriage between same sex couples. I don't care a hoot whether religions follow suit and I would stand against the State trying to force religions to do it.

"Under your unrealistic ideal of a secular State, and I would go as far as to say you secretly want religion banished too, the outcome will not be as you expect!"

I'm a liberal in the John Stuart Mill tradition. I say that over and over and over again, too. It would be solidly against my principles to support the State banishing religion.

"Don't forget survival of the fittest, so we'll become a muslim state then too because that lot are not going to settle for Islam being quietly private. And you know it."

Oh, I know it. Most Muslims I know are happy living in a liberal society under a liberal state but I have little doubt they would allow their power people to shift our society towards Sharia over time. I actually think Catholics would act in a similar way too if they thought they could get away with it. Catholicism and Islam as religions both want temporal control, I think. I want a secular State in place to resist that sort of stuff before it happens. It's not as though the CofE will be powerful enough, is it? They can't muster up much of substance even now as the established church.

6 February 2012 at 17:32  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Q: Did somebody mention my name? A: No, nobody of any consequence."

Dodo, you have the mental age of a child and an attention deficit disorder to suit. If I were of no consequence to you then you'd just post around me as people often do with others on forums they don't want to interact with. But you very clearly don't as yesterday's posts show. Your using the third person to do it now is hardly the actions of a mature man, indeed it rather hints at the actions of a retard instead.

6 February 2012 at 17:41  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

There's an echo in here. I'm sure I heard my name mentioned again!

Very weird goings on.

6 February 2012 at 17:56  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Oh, Marie, here's a bit of data for you given you said "People are fed up to the back teeth of them." Note the paragraph at the top about opposition from clerics. This is why we shouldn't be compromising over the important stuff.

6 February 2012 at 18:00  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Market Research and Polling

The Inspector is frequently bothered by phone surveys, which if he can spare the necessary ten to fifteen minutes, he is assured his name will go into a hat for a 10 day holiday in some Spanish resort plagued by drunken English, or some other equally irresistible prize he’s happily living without.

Those familiar with the Inspector knows that he does not oblige. Those who are familiar with phone surveys will know ‘great questions of importance’ follows on from what washing powder you use, when was the last time you bought a newspaper, and whether you are happy with the range of sanitary products some supermarket chain stocks.

An Observation. The ‘results’ from these great questions are therefore based only on the answers of people prepared to waste their valuable time on the phone. Overwhelmingly women of course. The results are therefore skewed from the start, but of course, that’s never mentioned, is it ?

6 February 2012 at 18:24  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Luckily, these are sent through the post as far as I know. Next!

6 February 2012 at 18:40  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

You certainly know a lot, or at least you think you do...

6 February 2012 at 18:44  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector

One needs to be careful with surveys. For example, a worldwide survey was conducted by the UN. The only question asked was:

"Would you please give your honest opinion about solutions to the food shortage in the rest of the world?"

The survey was a huge failure...

In Africa they didn't know what "food" meant.
In Eastern Europe they didn't know what "honest" meant.
In Western Europe they didn't know what "shortage" meant.
In China they didn't know what "opinion" meant.
In the Middle East they didn't know what "solution" meant.
In South America they didn't know what "please" meant.
And in the USA they didn't know what "the rest of the world" meant.

6 February 2012 at 18:54  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Careful boys, getting sand in your ears can cause havoc with your hearing.

6 February 2012 at 18:57  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

There's that bloody echo again.

Q: Besides his cat, what's a certain man's best friend?

A: His hand.

6 February 2012 at 19:18  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. You know damn well the inaccuracies of ‘opinion polls’. Incidentally, did Stonewall order you to troll the Archbishop’s site or did you volunteer...

6 February 2012 at 19:43  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "You know damn well the inaccuracies of ‘opinion polls’."

I understand they heavily depend on the methodology used and that some subjects are better polled than others. In particular, I know that surveys about sex are problematic. People lie about that, you see. Even when it's anonymous.

Speaking of which, is Dodo talking about you in that post above yours? Do you have a cat? It's been years since I owned a cat, you see. Other than Dodo, I suspect your hand is very likely to be your best friend so I'm putting two and two together.

It's okay, we're all anonymous here so it won't get back to your priest that you've been pulling a fast one, so to speak. I doubt Marie minds about your mental image either, she's probably flattered truth be told.

6 February 2012 at 20:11  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

No cat here DanJ0. Perhaps Dodo is getting you mixed up with that hopeless case Len, who has no known friends in the real world. (....It’s true Len, your born again mates on the net don’t count...). If you are still on your own, you should consider an Afghan hound. High maintenance, but it will stop you playing with yourself or drooling over pictures of boys. Walk one of them to the gay club, and you’ll be the centre of attention. (That's the dog, mind, not a child...). You lucky boy !

6 February 2012 at 20:54  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6 February 2012 at 21:10  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

6 February 2012 at 21:12  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

”If Christians have some sort of moral high ground over the rest of us on sexual morality because they're religious then why not Muslims? Why shouldn't Muslim men expect you not to show your arms and legs and to cover your hair when you're around them.

Because we are British and not partakers of the dessert culture. Christianity is our state religion and is far more advanced, civilised, and promotes a healthy survival of the human race and peace. We are not a muslim country. Our men can control themselves (most of them anyway.) Why would we want to go backwards?

Danj0:“Did you actively reject Zoroastrianism as you were growing up?”
I wasn't taught it. No doubt I would not have rejected it had I grown up in Iran. From the little I have read about it, might it be better than the current Islam with Mohammedan worship now I wonder?

Danj0:”I want a secular State in place to resist that sort of stuff before it happens. It's not as though the CofE will be powerful enough, is it? They can't muster up much of substance even now as the established church.”

I rather think the secular state alone won't be strong enough to resist, but together with a stronger more pronounced CofE that does not become fragmented and even weaker, things can be more cohesive and secure. And of course with the help of the Catholics need to pull together.

Regarding poles I tend to look at them as not too accurate, but some can be a general indicator

6 February 2012 at 22:06  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Marie

That's polls and not poles. Careful now or you'll get your correspondent excited!

6 February 2012 at 22:33  
Blogger len said...

Inspector,

Quite revealing comments ...about you!.

Quite honestly I find your gutter humour quite unbecoming for anyone who calls themselves' Christian'.

What exactly do they teach you in that Catholic Church?.Second thoughts I would rather not know!.

7 February 2012 at 00:05  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

:-) I realised just after I'd pressed the button.

7 February 2012 at 00:32  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "Because we are British and not partakers of the dessert culture."

Marie, there may be as many as 2.7 million Muslims in the UK. That's around three times the weekly attendance figures for CofE services. They're British citizens. And it's not just culture, it's religious culture. Stuff about morals! And applicable to all of us.

"Christianity is our state religion and is far more advanced, civilised, and promotes a healthy survival of the human race and peace."

But it might not actually be the truth. Islam could be the truth and Allah could be the actual creator and sustainer of our reality. Surely the argument for Christianity by its adherents is that it is true rather than that it is preferable?

For people like myself, of course, neither is true as far as we know. We prefer to govern our own affairs by human standards and make arguments for and against behaviour based on appeals to shared values and the like rather than superstition and woo stuff. Our values make explicit space for religions in the private sphere.

However, if Christians say that we must organise all ourselves one way so that it suits their own particular sexual morality and Muslims say that we must all organise ourselves a slightly different way for their sexual morality then why should we go one way and not the other?

Why should gay people and people around us be encouraged to think we are immoral or somehow dirty for having loving relationships? Why should women be encouraged to think they are immoral and wanton for showing their bare arms or for leaving their hair uncovered? It's mad, isn't it?

"I rather think the secular state alone won't be strong enough to resist, but together with a stronger more pronounced CofE that does not become fragmented and even weaker, things can be more cohesive and secure. And of course with the help of the Catholics need to pull together."

You only need to look around you here to see how Catholics get on with other Christians. If I weren't here for the left-footers to focus on and attack then they'd be attacking the evangelicals and protestants even more than they do now. It's the nature of it, it accepts no other competitors. It's also a political organisation and it remembers and covets the power it once had in Europe.

As for the CofE, you can see how people here are predicting more schisms and its eventual death as a force. Moreover, the average age of its church-goers is about 60 I think. Unless it renews itself then it will die a natural death anyway. It will end up a Commonwealth church/communion with nothing much in the UK. No, the State needs something with more clout to maintain its liberal values than a dying religion.

7 February 2012 at 06:23  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Marie

Goodness me, some people do like to feel sorry for themselves and play the martyr. One brave little foot soldier absorbing the slings and arrows on behalf of others. And all done without complaint too or without any intention of advancing his own cause.

How very noble.

7 February 2012 at 13:38  
Blogger Oswin said...

DanJo : 06:23 : service attendances at C-of-E churches may well be pitiful, but have you ever tried to book a date for a wedding or baptism???

Protestant market forces apply, for good or ill; but the C-of-E appears to be meeting at least some of the needs of its clients/customers/congregation.

'Customer Service' or services?

(only slightly tongue-in-cheek!)

7 February 2012 at 15:22  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Given he claims I'm of no consequence, he's very keen to read what I write all the way to the end. Compare and contrast with his fellow berk's essay I was practically begged to read and still can't be bothered with. :)

7 February 2012 at 15:22  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Oswin, not yet. :)

7 February 2012 at 15:24  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. You have the sense of humour of an OT prophet (…and that is NOT a compliment, you fool…). Interestingly, you chose to castigate the Inspector for his ‘gutter humour’ and not DanJ0 whose mucky remark prompted the Inspector into replying in kind. As you yourself say, it was a “Quite revealing comment ...about you!.”

DanJ0. The whole blog is now wise to you and your trolling. It is quite clear you are a place man operating here on behalf of some nefarious gay organisation. The only question remaining is which one. However, there is every hope you will let slip the answer during one of your self pitying mawkish whines you regularly treat us to…

7 February 2012 at 18:38  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector, what do you ever add to the comments section of this blog other than a cover and an encouragement to Dodo in his trolling and mischief-making? If you're lonely and crave the attention of others then there must a bar somewhere that you can perch at the end of and bore people with your life story in time-honoured fashion? That must surely be better than following another pointless berk around an online blog every night after drinking whiskey on your own? Jeez.

7 February 2012 at 20:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspetor

I and many others enjoy your fine contributions and humour.

Carry on that man.

7 February 2012 at 20:53  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0 what do you ever add to the comments section of this blog

The Inspector humbly replies he is a foil to you, dear boy. Indeed, he only posts at night during the week, though views the gay angle you would pass as normal during the day. Allows him time to seethe, you understand. Must annoy you somewhat when he does spill forth (...don’t get excited now, twas only a figure of speech...), hence your more frequent bile directed at him...

Right, back to business. Which gay group do you spy for ???

7 February 2012 at 20:55  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Your kind words appreciated. In fact, the Inspector feels very at home in the Archbishop’s virtual palace, fighting evil, as one does...

7 February 2012 at 20:58  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I mean, look. Two minutes apart. They're practically joined at the pelvis area. Lol. The main purpose being to actively disrupt ongoing discussions with which they don't approve. A sort of Catholic Church in microcosm: illiberal, intrusive, aggressive, and really rather silly when seen from from the outside.

7 February 2012 at 21:02  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector

Tis a noble cause ...

Refering to 'you know who', I'm minded of the following:

"He's the sort of man you can rely on to lay down your life for his country."

7 February 2012 at 21:05  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo, for someone who is of no consequence to you I seem to attract a lot of your attention. It's almost like, well, I'm actually of significant consequence to you. But that can't be the case as that'd mean you'd be self-deluded or lying and surely neither of those attributes fit you very well. *cough*

7 February 2012 at 21:16  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

An echo ....?

7 February 2012 at 21:18  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Point of Clarification

"Go away ... After your outrageous remark on another thread I've decided to ignore you, so please don't address any further comments my way."
(28 January 2012 16:43)

Means there will be no direct communication from me to another party and said party is asked to refain from addressing me.

7 February 2012 at 21:30  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Means there will be no direct communication from me to another party and said party is asked to refain from addressing me."

Grow up, you berk. You don't have carte blanche to write stuff in the third person about me here without any comeback. Jeez, what a head case! I want to laugh but at the same time I'm a bit :O too.

7 February 2012 at 21:44  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Let’s leave DanJ0 to lick his wounds, whilst at the same time rejoicing he has nothing else to lick...

7 February 2012 at 22:05  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector

Okay, so long as said person refrains from posting nonsense.

You know, he never learned to swim because he couldn't keep his mouth shut long enough!

7 February 2012 at 22:24  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. This is the Inspector signing off for tonight. Lots more Catholic fun to come, what !

7 February 2012 at 22:34  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Sleep well.

7 February 2012 at 22:40  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

"This must be a bit like Genghis Khan felt like when surveying the utter carnage he'd wrought after battle. It's too easy sometimes. I need more of a challenge."

Ummm ... now just who posted this? Indicative, what? Self-obsessed, narcisstic, vain, I could go on.

Now what was that word coined by Cranmer? Blogasterbation, I think.

One more such victory and he is lost!

8 February 2012 at 00:09  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Danj0
Danj0:”there may be as many as 2.7 million Muslims in the UK. That's around three times the weekly attendance figures for CofE services. They're British citizens. And it's not just culture, it's religious culture. Stuff about morals! And applicable to all of us.”

They can practice their culture quietly but must be made to see that it's secondary to our Christianity even if their numbers increase to become a majority, because Britain is Christian and it has to come down to a matter of preference if all religions think theirs is the truth we have to take the most advanced and civilised one.

This is why R.E. needs to be taught in schools so that people can learn and see for themselves where our cultures come from, and I'm sure they would prefer to follow something less barbaric and torturous than Islam and it's warlord Muhammad.

Yes I agree it is shameful and petty the way different denominations of Christians squabble but they are going to have to put their differences aside in the face of being usurped by Islam.

I for one would prefer to continue to live in our Christian country, as I'm sure you would too Danj0 as a gay boy and most women too especially the feminists.

Churches should open 24/7 like Tesco. Although the British are a reserved peoples, they love belting out a good hymn or two, and ceremony, but Sunday morning or evening is not always convenient. And there is nothing like a good (not too long) sermon based on a story from the bible, we are all children at heart. You go home feeling quite elated and cleansed with the motivation to try to live a better life.

People do love a hands on approach , that's why the Catholics and the relics are so fascinating to people, they are part of something bigger that people can cling to for reassurance and so that we don't feel too alone.

The CofE here needs a passionate people person in charge who is not so aloof and a good promotion company to propel him along when he flags a bit. It will be a challenge. The Church in problem areas could do more for a cohesive community by becoming the father figure for young boys by taking a more active hands on role.


“Why should gay people and people around us be encouraged to think we are immoral or somehow dirty for having loving relationships? Why should women be encouraged to think they are immoral and wanton for showing their bare arms or for leaving their hair uncovered? It's mad, isn't it?”

Look we tolerate you and you have legal status now, so belt up. We can't all have everything we want. Gay “marriage” does not exist , it's gay union and whilst you can go to church don't make a mockery of it by insisting on using it for your ceremonies. Please respect the Church and what it stands for. I respect your venues. Why don't gay people build something significant and representative of their lifestyles where they can be united and hold special gay ceremonies?

8 February 2012 at 01:18  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "[...] it has to come down to a matter of preference if all religions think theirs is the truth we have to take the most advanced and civilised one."

We can take the other option instead: No religion at State level, leaving religious choice to the individual.

"I for one would prefer to continue to live in our Christian country, as I'm sure you would too Danj0 as a gay boy and most women too especially the feminists."

I prefer a secular State. After that, I prefer a CofE one simply for its ineffectual politics. From there, there's little to choose between Islam and Catholicism for me, both being dire.

"People do love a hands on approach , that's why the Catholics and the relics are so fascinating to people, they are part of something bigger that people can cling to for reassurance and so that we don't feel too alone."

They're creepy to properly civilised and rational people, it's just superstition and woo stuff. You know, I'd happily sit in seat 13, stand on cracks in the pavement, sneer at crystals, and say Macbeth in a theatre. I don't need any of that stuff that makes some people cling to religion. Lots of us don't.

"The CofE here needs a passionate people person in charge who is not so aloof and a good promotion company to propel him along when he flags a bit. It will be a challenge. The Church in problem areas could do more for a cohesive community by becoming the father figure for young boys by taking a more active hands on role."

I'm seeing a potential problem there. *shudder*

"Look we tolerate you and you have legal status now, so belt up. We can't all have everything we want."

No. We tolerate the religious too and you have legal status so you belt up. No-one is asking to have everything they want, we just want what we deserve in terms of justice. You can't have everything you want either: in this case, ownership of the social institution of marriage as though it were solely religious.

"Gay “marriage” does not exist , it's gay union and whilst you can go to church don't make a mockery of it by insisting on using it for your ceremonies. Please respect the Church and what it stands for. I respect your venues."

You can't insist that people respect the Church any more than Muslims can insist you to respect Mosques or the teachings of Islam. I don't have special respect for Christianity or Islam, they're private organisations to me which exist to promote the interests of their members.

"Why don't gay people build something significant and representative of their lifestyles where they can be united and hold special gay ceremonies?"

You say it yourself: special. That's the thing, I don't want to be special or have special things for being gay. It's just normal, everyday stuff to me and I want normal, everyday stuff to apply. That means not being unduly discriminated against in work, in the public space, or in the supply of goods and services.

It's hardly unreasonable to expect that. Afterall, women are different to men in many ways but they rightly expect to have equality of opportunity for pay and promotions and other core stuff.

That link I gave you suggests what the story is here. Advances in social equality seem to take social attitudes with them. Many younger people I know now don't give a stuff about sexual orientation, and why on earth should they? It's just the equivalent of ginger hair and left-handed-ness when all is said and done.

8 February 2012 at 06:00  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Genghis Khan Jnr said ...

Afterall, women are different to men in many ways ..."

Agreed, but how would he know?

"I'd happily sit in seat 13, stand on cracks in the pavement, sneer at crystals, and say Macbeth in a theatre."

Say no more, say no more ...

"I don't want to be special or have special things for being gay."

Good thing too. Ah, ... but we're all special. Low self esteem is such a trial.

"Many younger people I know now don't give a stuff about sexual orientation ...."

Let's hope he stays away from our young people; they're probably embarrassed by his attention and being polite to him!

" ... you have legal status so you belt up."

How very rude and to a lady too.

8 February 2012 at 12:05  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Are you channelling your Holy Spirit (Catholic version) again, Dodo? If anyone needs an example to demonstrate Matthew 5-14 then you're clearly the man.

8 February 2012 at 13:42  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Good grief DanJ0! I don't want to be special or have special things for being gay. We have common ground !

You see, neither do we. Do realise that the Inspector respects you and your lifestyle. And do realise you no longer are discriminated against. You might THINK you are, but your are not. What you’ve got is as good as it gets. Now do re-join society, albeit towards the back. Has to be there you know, we leave the front for those raising the next generation, which is what it’s all about...

8 February 2012 at 14:00  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector, you're clueless.

Anyway, I've been meaning to ask whether you and Dodo actually live together. You know, like Bert and Ernie from Sesame Street? I ask because you always seem to post comments as a couple whatever time of day it is. I suppose it'd be quite endearing if you weren't such berks. But it isn't.

8 February 2012 at 14:19  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. Two grown men living together ? Not one’s cup of tea at all, you know, but don’t let that stop you dreaming of shacking up with your prince. (...But you’ll have to ‘kiss’ a lot of frogs first before you find him, if you catch the Inspector's drift...)

8 February 2012 at 14:39  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

"You are the light of the world. A city seated on a mountain cannot be hid."
(Matthew 5:14)

8 February 2012 at 16:03  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector, hypothetically speaking, which one of these do you identify with most and which do you think ought to be Dodo? I already have you in my mind's eye you see but I'd like to see if it correlates. Thanks in advance.

8 February 2012 at 16:49  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

“It is not sufficient that I suceed - all others must fail.”
(Genghis Khan)

8 February 2012 at 16:58  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. You are a card. Wasn’t it those two who were proposed by US gays to enter into a civil partnership ? But the producers turned it down, as it would ‘confuse’ children. Horrify would be a better word, don’t you think...

8 February 2012 at 17:44  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

We can't afford to take the other option Danj0. You might prefer a secular state, but that leaves us vulnerable and openn and it wont be long before aspects of the pushy and forceful dessert culture will manipulate its way in to legislation, laws and our everyday lives.
It's very unfair of you to put Islam in the same bracket as Catholics there is no comparison.
You don't have to take part yourself in any religion.

You now have justice, and the law is on your side. What makes you think that you don't have justice merely because you can't use a Church for your ceremony and call it marriage? And why do you think you deserve it? It wouldn't be by any chance because you think you are worth it! :-) You say it's to be like everybody else and to be normal but not everybody uses a Church some have a civil ceremony.

The Church is more respected because it is linked to the state and the monarchy and is part of the Britain's identity. Islam isn't and I hope will never be. I tolerate mosques and muslims. I live and let live same as I tolerate homosexuals.

I meant more significant to your lifestyle than a Church would be. Don't you want a special venue for your union? A cottage on the heath maybe to remind you of the hardships you had to endure when it was illegal? You're not discriminated against in work, nor in the supply of goods&services they are universal to every human beings survival.

Each of the sexes has equality of opportunity within their scope of ability and when these overlap there is equal pay and promotions etc.... But why would women want to do jobs that are clearly better suited to a man, and visa versa.
An example of why there are no male Agony Aunts:
Dear Jim, Last week I left for work as normal but having gone a mile down the road my car broke down so I walked home again and arriving unexpectedly I found my 16yr old babysitter handcuffed to the bed in her school uniform with my husband bending over her. I am devastated can you help?....... Dear Sally, A common cause for this is dirt in your carburettor, don't let you fuel drop too low in the tank. Hope this helps. Jim. :-)

I read it and yes it does show changing attitudes. But I could have told you that without a poll, its because of social manipulation and brainwashing. It's been drummed into us that it's okay to be gay. We dare not criticise you for fear of losing a job, being sued or even locked up.

If you go about it quietly, and you can now that you have gay union, you don't need a Church at all. Surely it is more significant to you to have your own venues. But no, you want to overturn society and turn the Church into a hypocrite just to accommodate your selfish desire to get married in one and call yourselves married.

9 February 2012 at 00:51  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "It's very unfair of you to put Islam in the same bracket as Catholics there is no comparison."

I've never had much respect for Catholicism and the left-footed antics here hasn't made things any better on that score. Catholicism is a foreign religion whose adherents put their loyalty to their chief priest in Rome before their loyalty to our country. It comes to a head sometimes too, as it did when Cormac Murphy O'Connor tried to nobble some of our Ministers in the Executive.

"What makes you think that you don't have justice merely because you can't use a Church for your ceremony and call it marriage?"

As I've said again, and again, and again, and again ... and again to you further up the thread ... I don't give a stuff about church marriage. That's a religious version of the social institution and carries its own baggage. I advocate civil marriage for same sex couples. Really, I do.

"I tolerate mosques and muslims. I live and let live same as I tolerate homosexuals."

Well, I tolerate Christianity too. Even Catholicism. Though I think we probably ought to have informers in its upper echelons like we do in some mosques. We can't be having these religions try to handle criminal acts internally again to avoid bringing their organisation into disrepute. They're subject to the law like everyone else, there should be no parallel legal systems going on, visible or not.

9 February 2012 at 07:00  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "Don't you want a special venue for your union? A cottage on the heath maybe to remind you of the hardships you had to endure when it was illegal?"

Nope. I don't expect women to be attached to a kitchen sink when they enter the boardroom for a meeting either. I'm an intelligent and civilised modern-man.

"You're not discriminated against in work, nor in the supply of goods&services they are universal to every human beings survival."

That's manifest rubbish. It's like telling a black person there's no racism in the UK or that they don't collectively suffer adverse discrimination when applying for jobs. It's shown over and over again in studies. You're actually quite clueless, I think. Are you one of those lifetime benefits people who don't really get around the workplace other than to tick the 'been to an interview' box?

"Each of the sexes has equality of opportunity within their scope of ability and when these overlap there is equal pay and promotions etc.... But why would women want to do jobs that are clearly better suited to a man, and visa versa."

I'm not sure you actually understand the concept of equality in this context if you write stuff like that. It doesn't mean we're 'all the same', you know.

"I read it and yes it does show changing attitudes. But I could have told you that without a poll, its because of social manipulation and brainwashing. It's been drummed into us that it's okay to be gay. We dare not criticise you for fear of losing a job, being sued or even locked up."

It's okay to be gay, you know. Normal, really. It's okay to be black, or a woman, or physically disabled too. If someone thinks it's okay to criticise someone for being black, or gay, or a woman in the workplace then the company needs to take them aside and explain a few facts of life, one of which is appropriate workplace behaviour. It's not the 1970s now. Also, you probably haven't realised it but religious people are also covered by these regulations.

"If you go about it quietly, and you can now that you have gay union, you don't need a Church at all."

I think we can have civil marriage even if we don't go quietly. The Times They Are A'Changin', so to speak. If you believe that minorities should keep to the margins of Society for their own good then feel free to do that yourself if you count yourself as a Christian.

"Surely it is more significant to you to have your own venues. But no, you want to overturn society and turn the Church into a hypocrite just to accommodate your selfish desire to get married in one and call yourselves married."

Of course I don't want that at all as I have said again, and again, and again, and again. Oh, and again in this comment. Look, I tolerate the not-so-bright but I think it's reasonable to expect you to at least be able to grasp the basics of this.

9 February 2012 at 07:03  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

An unpleasant screeching from an unknown source has assaulted my poor ears!

"Catholicism is a foreign religion whose adherents put their loyalty to their chief priest in Rome before their loyalty to our country."

Someone's been listening too much to the wrong people and getting their facts confused.

Hopefully all Christians put their loyalty to God above that of their country. And that means opposing secularism and with it attempts to debase marriage and corrupt our children by exposing them to the idea homosexuality is 'normal' in the name of liberal 'tolerance'.

"Well, I tolerate Christianity too. Even Catholicism."

How kind the disembodied voice is!

9 February 2012 at 16:48  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo, do you wake up in the middle of the night shouting my name, with your duvet 'tenting' in the middle? You're a little obsessed with me, I think. Of course, you're not the first either. It's okay, some men go through this sort of thing later on in life, I'm told. Perhaps I'll start having fleeting crushes on women when I get there though that sounds rather horrible for me to anticipate, I have to say.

9 February 2012 at 17:29  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Danj0:”That's manifest rubbish. It's like telling a black person there's no racism in the UK or that they don't collectively suffer adverse discrimination when applying for jobs. It's shown over and over again in studies. You're actually quite clueless, I think. Are you one of those lifetime benefits people who don't really get around the workplace other than to tick the 'been to an interview' box?”

I'm not talking about blacks but if I were I would say the opposite is more applicable these days companies dare not discriminate, and in fact I have first hand experience of blacks getting preferential treatment. And don't you think that if they are not successful in getting the job its to do with skin colour, it's more to do with their actual mentality, abilities and a lack of jobs right now.

No, I'm not a lifetime benefit claimant, I've had many jobs in different industries, in the private and public sectors and in different countries. I've dealt with many people both as clients and colleagues. I'm not quite as clueless as you think.

“I think we can have civil marriage even if we don't go quietly. The Times They Are A'Changin', so to speak. If you believe that minorities should keep to the margins of Society for their own good then feel free to do that yourself if you count yourself as a Christian.”

Not the margins but there is a place for everyone in the natural order of things. If you gays are standard models then heterosexuals are deluxe or super deluxe with add ons.

You have a civil ceremony NOT a marriage. Civil marriage is between opposite sexes, that's why I call yours civil union and will continue to do so. You personally might not wish to use Church venues, I get you. I wasn't aiming my comments personally, rather, gays in general, you seem to be one of this blogs' more vociferous gay representatives and sound increasingly like a Stonewall representative. I've even read your hounding of the Christians on the e-Church blog. I must say you have passion, stamina and conviction for your desires goes on longer than a Duracell extra long life, amazing!

9 February 2012 at 17:37  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "And don't you think that if they are not successful in getting the job its to do with skin colour, it's more to do with their actual mentality, abilities and a lack of jobs right now."

Some of the testing is done like this. The same thing has been done many times and the results are replicated time and again, as far as I know. I find them very depressing myself but perhaps, like the opinion survey I posted earlier, some people will find a way to distort reality to match their wishes.

"Not the margins but there is a place for everyone in the natural order of things. If you gays are standard models then heterosexuals are deluxe or super deluxe with add ons."

And thus you demonstrate the likely bias against gay people in the workplace who are unable to hide it. I really hope you don't hire and fire in your work. Thanks for that, a job well done there.

"You have a civil ceremony NOT a marriage. Civil marriage is between opposite sexes, that's why I call yours civil union and will continue to do so."

You're correct if you mean civil partnership and you're looking at the law as it stands now. However, the proposal is for civil marriage for same-sex couples. That's a marriage in law and the ceremony will be a civil one. You can call it what you wish at that point. However, if you discriminate in (say) the supply of goods and services then you may fall foul of the law. I'm thinking that's rather likely the way all this is coming out as you present your case.

"I've even read your hounding of the Christians on the e-Church blog. I must say you have passion, stamina and conviction for your desires goes on longer than a Duracell extra long life, amazing!"

Well, I find that when you have justice on your side it certainly boosts the enthusiasm. I hardly hounded Christians on there, I was considerably more polite. I was actually praised by a couple of the liberal Christians there for my style, as I recall.

As it happened, I think anyone with off-message views were effectively pushed off in the end as the owner and his partner only wanted to preach to a choir of their choosing and hear amen for their own views. That's their right, of course.

Have you registered again with Gaydar to look for me if you're googling the name I use here again? I can save you the trouble, if you like. Unless you've found you like looking at some of the more explicit pictures there. I'm not the exclusive user of the name either btw to save you the trouble of wading through music lists and the like. Alternatively, you could just change your arguments to good ones instead and not need to scrabble around looking for stuff like that.

9 February 2012 at 18:47  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Goodness, there's that screeching again! How troublesome.

Must be the voice of a demented person. It's now fantasing about its attractiveness, spitting out poison and lying about its age.

And it seems this creature surfs Christian websites being offensive. It's said he and his crew compete to see who will be barred first.

9 February 2012 at 19:12  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0.Catholicism is a foreign religion whose adherents put their loyalty to their chief priest in Rome before their loyalty to our country..

Absolute rubbish. It’s YOUR loyalty to your Country which is suspect, as you are advocating unwanted social change on behalf of international gaiety. And you don’t do God, maybe not Queen either. Not looking good when it comes to trusting YOU, is it ?

Incidentally, from BBC news...

Recent data from the Office for National Statistics has revealed that 2.5% of adults who live in London identified themselves as gay, lesbian or bisexual compared with 1.5% in the North West, 1.3% in both the South East and Yorkshire and The Humber regions.

You types are rarer than Italian blondes. More curiosities than a social group. But the noise you make for your tiny number !!!

Be seeing you...

9 February 2012 at 19:31  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector

Oh I suspect said person dreams of Queens and stands to attention for them!

9 February 2012 at 19:35  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Oh my, that certainly shook the cage. I'm thinking the Inspector is going towards meltdown again.

9 February 2012 at 19:36  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Hey Inspector, who does the cooking and cleaning between you and Dodo at home, or do you share the chores? I'm thinking you share as you always seem to be online at the same time together at lunchtime, early evening, and then late at night before you both turn in for the night.

9 February 2012 at 19:46  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. You certainly have a fixation on these two Sesame street creations. Presumably that’s your idea of bliss, two men sleeping close to each other. Well, you have the Inspector laughing, you mildly humorous pervert. Well done...

9 February 2012 at 19:58  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector, pity the poor puppets. Imagine the state they must be in.

9 February 2012 at 20:31  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Me: "Dodo, do you wake up in the middle of the night shouting my name"

Sorry, I shouldn't have asked you that of course. Inspector, does Dodo wake up in the middle of the night shouting my name? ;)

9 February 2012 at 21:23  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Danj0:” Some of the testing is done like this. The same thing has been done many times and the results are replicated time and again, as far as I know. I find them very depressing myself but perhaps, like the opinion survey I posted earlier, some people will find a way to distort reality to match their wishes.”

“And thus you demonstrate the likely bias against gay people in the workplace who are unable to hide it. I really hope you don't hire and fire in your work. Thanks for that, a job well done there.”

No Danj0 I didn't mean in a workplace situation as you well know from earlier conversations that I think homosexuality does not affect a persons ability to do a job or not, and people should be hired on merit.

“You're correct if you mean civil partnership and you're looking at the law as it stands now. However, the proposal is for civil marriage for same-sex couples. That's a marriage in law and the ceremony will be a civil one. You can call it what you wish at that point. However, if you discriminate in (say) the supply of goods and services then you may fall foul of the law. I'm thinking that's rather likely the way all this is coming out as you present your case.

Why should a church charge for the use of their premises and be classed as a goods and services provider. The Church is not a business? Or it might want to rethink it's status if it is classed as one. I thought it is a charity and they can discriminate who they give their aid too which would include their time and access to their premises to. Then one has to be baptised, confirmed and be a Church goer to be able to marry in one. That rules out a lot of people for a start. Gay or not, isn't that filtering discrimination?

“Have you registered again with Gaydar to look for me if you're googling the name I use here again? I can save you the trouble, if you like. Unless you've found you like looking at some of the more explicit pictures there. I'm not the exclusive user of the name either btw to save you the trouble of wading through music lists and the like. Alternatively, you could just change your arguments to good ones instead and not need to scrabble around looking for stuff like that.”

No I've not been on Gaydar again now that I know what it's all about. It makes me sad to see such beautiful men batting for the wrong side. I'm not in the business of humiliating people either, just curious.

9 February 2012 at 21:45  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Dan Link not linking?

9 February 2012 at 21:50  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

"Inspector, does Dodo wake up in the middle of the night shouting my name?"

How sad.

"Cure yourself of the affliction of caring how you appear to others. Concern yourself only with how you appear before God, concern yourself only with the idea that God may have of you."
(Miguel De Unamuno)

9 February 2012 at 23:36  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "No Danj0 I didn't mean in a workplace situation as you well know from earlier conversations that I think homosexuality does not affect a persons ability to do a job or not, and people should be hired on merit."

That's the official position, I'm suggesting you're revealing your unofficial one in what you say. It's a bit of a poke with a sharp stick but I think your previous comments probably deserved it.

"Gay or not, isn't that filtering discrimination?"

Not all discrimination is 'bad discrimination'. I often write "undue discrimination" in my comments to make that clear. I think churches have a clear case for discriminating between same-sex and mixed-sex couples in their religious marriage ceremonies. This is why I only advocate civil marriage for same-sex couples, leaving religions to decide for themselves. I would actively support churches against the State if the State tried to force the issue. I don't think I'd be the only gay person to do so.

"It makes me sad to see such beautiful men batting for the wrong side."

Well, on the positive side other men get to enjoy their beauty instead so it's all good. I read though the whole B&B thread on that blog yesterday to see if I was actually hounding anyone. I don't think I was. Moreover, I think I was actually majestic in my arguments. It was a pleasure to read. :)

The missing link was to an article in the Guardian. I assume the blog owner blocked it simply for being a Guardian one, but perhaps I just cocked up in the link instead. You could google "Undercover job hunters reveal huge race bias in Britain's workplaces" if you're interested.

10 February 2012 at 06:33  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Btw, when I said I'd save you the trouble I meant that I'd tell you I didn't have and never have had a profile on there. However, I've been on there using one of my mate's accounts and it was an eye-opener. Not my sort of thing at all. Ahem. I thought I'd better point that out before Bert and Ernie here misread or misinterpret my comments again and launch off into another intellectual cul-de-sac like they did with my age, bless them.

10 February 2012 at 06:43  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

"Moreover, I think I was actually majestic in my arguments. It was a pleasure to read."

Is there no end to this person's vanity?! More like a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal, I'd say.

10 February 2012 at 13:14  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

You make me feel a bit guilty now Dodo. How unfair it is that by the vagaries of fate you're never likely to experience the warm glow after having made a polite, coherent, well engineered and well delivered argument which devastated its opponents. :(

10 February 2012 at 17:26  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

Danj0:“Not all discrimination is 'bad discrimination'. I often write "undue discrimination" in my comments to make that clear. I think churches have a clear case for discriminating between same-sex and mixed-sex couples in their religious marriage ceremonies. This is why I only advocate civil marriage for same-sex couples, leaving religions to decide for themselves. I would actively support churches against the State if the State tried to force the issue. I don't think I'd be the only gay person to do so.”

What I find hard to come to terms with is the term marriage. Looking back at the origins of marriage it clearly is more of a contract between a man and a woman for economic reasons and cooperation for the protection for children.

Magnus Hirschfield Archive for sexology

The Origin of Marriage

“Moreover, I think I was actually majestic in my arguments. It was a pleasure to read. :)”
:-))) Yes Danj0 I know and you were.

Yes I'm interested,I read the Guardian article,thank you. It's a bit hysterical really, typical left wing stirring. Not very thorough and 3 yrs out of date now.

10 February 2012 at 21:28  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0.10 February 2012 06:33.I think I was actually majestic in my arguments. It was a pleasure to read..

Priceless !!!

If you are ever considering an avatar, it has to be Narcissus. No other comes close !

10 February 2012 at 21:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector, it get's worse!

" ... the warm glow after having made a polite, coherent, well engineered and well delivered argument which devastated its opponents."

Not only does he compare his skills to Genghis Khan saying, "It's too easy sometimes. I need more of a challenge," and confesses to enjoying his own comments, but now we're told he gets a "warm glow"!

What's that word - sublimation. (There is another that sounds very similar). A type of defence mechanism where socially unacceptable impulses are transformed into socially acceptable actions. A form of displacement serving a higher, socially useful purpose. Better than the alternative and it might lead to a long-term re-odering of his desires.

Still - just for him:

You're so vain
You probably think this song is about you
You're so vain
I'll bet you think this song is about you
Don't you? Don't you?

10 February 2012 at 22:29  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "What I find hard to come to terms with is the term marriage. Looking back at the origins of marriage it clearly is more of a contract between a man and a woman for economic reasons and cooperation for the protection for children."

I just skimmed the articles as I'm quite familiar with the subject. Like most of us, you have a very Northern/Western view of marriage with the one man/one woman thing. I had a brief exchange with YouthPasta on another thread about it before he flounced out in a blustering hissy fit because I wouldn't take his wrongly argued opinions as gospel.

I had an article written by/about Kate Bolick in the Guardian set aside for when this next came up but its copyright has expired so it's been deleted. Ignoring the feminist tones of it, it set out quite a good description of historical marriage across social classes as I recall.

Looking at what you wrote, you're not really setting out an argument but I could infer one from it and argue something back. For instance, I might argue that social changes have been reflected in marriage i.e. it's not been cast in stone. That's hardly surprising because marriage is a social institution of course.

I might also be tempted to leap forward and argue that attitudes to marriage and sexual 'morality' have followed from changes to the position of women in society. That is, sexual 'morality' is not really changing because people have become distanced from religion but because women have become empowered.

11 February 2012 at 07:12  

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