Thursday, February 23, 2012

Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani to be hanged


Sources in Iran are reporting that the execution order for Christian Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani may have been issued. An Iranian Court has convicted him of apostasy (despite never having been a Muslim: background here, here and here), and the execution is thought to be imminent. The present heightened tensions with Iran lend credence to this development: a high-profile execution becomes retaliation as the country endures crippling sanctions and international pressure in response to its nuclear agenda and fundamentalist rhetoric.

If the execution proceeds, it will be the first Iranian execution of a Christian for many years, and the fear is that it may (re-)establish the precedent for the execution of other Christians and religious minorities, of which there are many languishing in prison. According to Jordan Sekulow, Executive Director of the ACLJ, Pastor Youcef's execution 'could be the catalyst for the extinction of Christianity in Iran'.

The world needs to stand up and say that a man cannot be put to death because of his faith. It is likely that the Pastor's life has been extended thus far only because og international pressure from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and 89 members of the US Congress, along with the governments of the UK, France , Germany and Mexico.

Christian Solidarity Worldwide are asking people to email the Iranian Chief Judge and to pray.

WE must continue to keep up the pressure: pass the word along vis blogs, Facebook, Twitter, whatever, using links, 'likes' and hashtags.

The greatest fear is that Iran is simply waiting for pressure to die down before quietly executing Pastor Youcef. The best chance for keeping him (and, indeed, the Christian faith) alive in Iran is to protest very loudly and forcefully about this. And pray.

80 Comments:

Anonymous Geoff said...

NATO should simply say "kill him or any other Christian and we will send cruise missiles into your Parliament building and every major mosque"

Why the hell does the West NEVER stand up for Christians and yet get in a tangle over some perceived "slights" by muslims?

Barnabas Fund

http://bit.ly/yG8HgU

http://bit.ly/AtutDE

23 February 2012 08:49  
Anonymous Geoff said...

Just why are our politicians supporting and giving aid to muslim countries when they discriminate against Christians?

http://bit.ly/wp0QM3

23 February 2012 08:58  
Blogger IanCad said...

I'm wondering when the gloves will come off.
God Bless this brave man and succor his family.

23 February 2012 09:14  
Blogger David B said...

Of course secular atheists like me are equally appalled by stories like this.

Let us not forget the persecution of atheists in states like that as well.

Nor even the persecution of different sects of Islam within Islam.

And let us not forget the case of Hamza Kashgari.

David B

23 February 2012 09:20  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

Coercion, intimidation, thuggery and outright terrorism are intrinsic and essential features of Islam.

Islam is so intellectually moribund and ethically repulsive that it cannot compete for followers in a free marketplace of ideas, but must eliminate its competitors by whatever means may be necessary.

ISLAM WILL DOMINATE!

23 February 2012 09:40  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Mr Cranmer

May God help this poor man and his family. However, there is an inherent contradiction in your post and I would be more cautious about recommending a course of action that might inflame an already tense situation.

" ... a high-profile execution becomes retaliation as the country endures crippling sanctions and international pressure in response to its nuclear agenda and fundamentalist rhetoric."

Is juxtaposed with:

"The greatest fear is that Iran is simply waiting for pressure to die down before quietly executing Pastor Youcef. The best chance for keeping him (and, indeed, the Christian faith) alive in Iran is to protest very loudly and forcefully about this."

Iran is set on a course of increasing conflict with the West and Israel. If the Pastor's life and those of other Christians is linked with open resistance to Iranian nationalism and fundamentalist Islam then God help them all. And Christianity by its very nature is a direct threat to the repression of this regime and the evil that lies at the core of Islam.

"And pray."

Amen to that.

23 February 2012 09:44  
Blogger jaylen watkins said...

If he get converted to Islam he may survive.

23 February 2012 09:46  
Anonymous David said...

@jaylen watkins - yes, he may live longer on this earth, but at a terrible cost!

Mark 8v35 "For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it."

John 3v36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

23 February 2012 10:35  
Anonymous Dele said...

It is true that Christian will face persecution in this world but the rate it is being handled by the government is very unreasonable and inconsiderate. Muslim and other religions are free to do anything they like but only Christian(not allow to talk about the gospel)is in trouble, very, very unfair.

23 February 2012 11:22  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

All credit to HG (and the US delegates of course) for keeping this issue and maybe even this man alive. This whole disgusting business to me shows the irrationality of tightly combining religion and politics.

This despicable regieme does not in any way represent the ordinary people of Iran and as much as I find it hard to believe; I echo much of that said by that (not so on this occasion) idiotic DoDo.

23 February 2012 11:55  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

@Dele and Geoff:

We shouldn't forget Who is sovereign here. It isn't Iran. It isn't us either; no missile or bomb will bring justice.

"You will be hated by all for my name's sake. But not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your lives." (Luke 21:17-19)

Let's pray for strength and comfort for the pastor and his family. Let's pray that the Holy Spirit is with Nadarkhani, and that He might use his plight to win prisoners and jailors alike for Christ. For our God is not rendered helpless by earthly powers; nor is He chained when we are chained for His sake.

23 February 2012 12:03  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Geoff

NATO should simply say "kill him or any other Christian and we will send cruise missiles into your Parliament building and every major mosque"

The manner in which a country treats its citizens is not a cause for war. Otherwise, NATO should already be at war with China. Who actually contemplates such an action? So the unstated premise in your assertion is that NATO should attack Iran over this issue because the NATO countries are relatively invulnerable to Iranian counter-attack. To fight only those who cannot fight back is not such a noble-sounding suggestion.

And why should we only threaten action over the unjustified death of a Christian? I never had much sympathy for Salman Rushdie, but he never did anything that would warrant murder. If the man in question was a Rushdie clone, shouldn't we also threaten action according to your logic? The intrinsic value of the man is not dependent upon his religion. It depends upon the image of God he bears, and that image exists regardless of his worldview. This should not become a matter of "Iran is threatening one of our own, and that's why it's important."

The bitter truth is that most countries in the world have the freedom to do as they please with their own citizens. Wars do not start over such things. What is being done for Pastor Youcef is all that can be done. If Iran is intent on executing him, then he will inevitably be executed. If however sufficient moral pressure is brought to bear, and Iran considers that the cost of that pressure exceeds the benefit of performing the execution, then he might be exiled.

God is sovereign in all things, and that includes the fate of this man. We do not know the outcome. We do not know the Decretive Will of God. All we can do is act within the scope of actions available to us, and trust that God works all things together for good for those who are called according to His purpose. Even the martyrdom of an innocent man.

carl

23 February 2012 12:50  
Blogger Anglican said...

"Why does the West never stand up for Christians?" The reason is obvious. The Western ruling elites are very largely secularists or atheists.

23 February 2012 13:35  
Blogger Preacher said...

Brethren. We must continue to pray for our brother, yes & fast too if we can. It's up to us to do all things possible to save his life, because he has stood firm & is an example to us all & to those who persecute him for his faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

"And this is the condemnation, that The light has come into the World,and men loved darkness, because their deeds were evil."

Those who persecute us do so out of fear, why else would they oppose the faith of others? Wherever men persecute others, this is the cause.
They plan to frighten others into submission to cover their own fear & insecurity. Most bullies do the same.
If Islam recognises Jesus as a true prophet, why are they trying to suppress His teachings by fear? Could it be that many of Islam's Mullahs & political leaders know & recognise that if the people find the truth their hold over the people will be broken & Islam is not strong enough to stand on the teachings of it's own Prophet & the Quoran?.
Jesus Christ came into the World with the sole intention of giving His life as a ransom for ALL who would accept His sacrifice for their sins, so that the Father would be able to justly declare them innocent on the day of judgement.
I beg all who have any say in the case of Pastor Youcef, do not lay the death of an innocent man as a burden on yourselves & your faith.
God is merciful should you not emulate Him?.

23 February 2012 14:20  
Anonymous thandie said...

This is so heart-breaking. But I so admire this man's endurance. He will surely get his rewward in Heaven. The Lord says in His word, "I will never leave you nor forsake you", this has so much meaning to it and I hope Pastor Youcef can take comfort in knowing that The Lord is with him.

Hold on to your faith. God is all powerful, all knowing and He saw this coming even before we were created. Fear not, brother in Christ, fear not. My prayers are with you and your family at this trying time.

23 February 2012 14:30  
Blogger Pubcrawler said...

Shameful silence from the BBC.

23 February 2012 15:05  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pray and fast.
Jesus said anyone can pray for people we like,
But real love is shown when we pray for our enemies.
Pray for Wisdom for our politicians and theirs too.
God is mighty to save.

23 February 2012 15:40  
Blogger Larks Tongues in Aspic said...

Anglican - any evidence of that? Or is it just your pet prejudice?

23 February 2012 16:15  
Blogger Oswin said...

seanrobsville @ 09:40: is entirely right. For the life of me, I am angered, and forever mystified, by those who think otherwise. It's not as if muslims deny the accusation, far from it. Yet many of us still refuse to take them at their own word; utter insanity

Godbless, as I'm sure He will, Pastor Nadarkhani.

23 February 2012 16:32  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

REligion KILLS
and tortures and lies and blackmails

Here is more proof, were such needed.

I assume "Amnesty" are doing their best, but it does not look good does it?

And I also support the words of David B, above.

seanrobsville
wrong
"Coercion, intimidation, thuggery and outright terrorism are intrinsic and essential features of" .... all religions, and including communism, before some idiot re-tries that one!

Anglican
LIAR
both David B & I are secular atheists.
We also think this stinks.

23 February 2012 16:37  
Blogger Oswin said...

Larks: there's a time and place, and this is neither.

Try below for a more pertinent response:

consulate@iran-embassy.org.uk

Sorry, I don't know how to post direct links :o(

23 February 2012 16:56  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Mr T
REligion KILLS

You of all people should realise that this is complete nonsense.

People kill - People kill - People.

23 February 2012 17:02  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Anglican said...

"Why does the West never stand up for Christians?" The reason is obvious. The Western ruling elites are very largely secularists or atheists." and are exceedingly fearful of the trojan horse in their midst that they ALLOWED to settle within our shores, let alone extremists abroad...Disagree?

Lets compare, shall we.

"President Barack Obama apologized Thursday for the burning of copies of the Muslim holy book at a U.S. military base this week, as violent protests raging nationwide led a man dressed in an Afghan army uniform to kill two U.S. troops.

The Afghans' furious response to the Quran burning — three days of riots in several cities nationwide — reflected the anger at what they perceive as foreign forces disrespect for Afghan laws and culture."

and that "The riots erupted Tuesday after Afghan workers at the main American military base, Bagram Air Field, saw soldiers dumping books in a pit where garbage is burned and noticed Qurans and other religious material among the trash.

The top U.S. and NATO commander, Gen. John Allen, quickly issued an apology"

But what about the Holy Bible?.

In 2011 exents with the koran let to the statement that burning a holy book, you see, was hateful, intolerant, and extremely disrespectful.

That’s how General Petraeus put it: “hateful, intolerant, extremely disrespectful.” and Obama said “I consider it part of my responsibility as President of the United States, to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear." A bleed'n apologist Government then?

At the same time, however, it is OK, in the Obama regime, for the U.S. government to burn Bibles, Bibles that were sent to serving U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan. But the U.S. government determined that the presence of Bibles (Religious Scared Text for Christians) in this “devoutly Muslim country” might inflame the natives. So they burned them. Why did they burn them? Because it is US military policy to burn its trash.

So, the Bibles, according to U.S. policy, are trash, refuse, dross, rubbish, mere worthless garbage, and it’s OK to burn them.

When it comes to the Koran, however, an official Department of Defense memo specifies a rather different procedure.

Item 4, “Handling”:

Clean gloves will be put on in full view of the detainees prior to handling.
Two hands will be used at all times when handling the Koran in manner signaling respect and reverence. Care should be used so that the right hand is the primary one used to manipulate any part of the Koran due to the cultural association with the left hand. Handle the Koran as if it were a fragile piece of delicate art.

Charming or what?
Handle it “as if it were a fragile piece of delicate art.” Good lord, its even ART!
But please burn the Bible because we consider it is just part of your rubbish.

The conclusion reached is it's ok to burn Bibles while the Koran must be handled as if it were a “fragile piece of delicate art” and that Muslims and their sacred scriptures have priority over Jews and Christians and their scriptures. Period!
That’s what it says in the Koran, and that’s what the U.S. government is ensuring, (so it must be true), especially whilst utilising it's leading role within Nato led operations.

Pathetic double standards but of course a Christian is not going to strap 20lbs of semtex to him/herself and go in search of prey such as innocent women and children shopping or travelling on a bus, is he/she.

Religion of Peace? Utter Insanity, indeed.

Ernst

23 February 2012 17:08  
Blogger David B said...

I have very rarely seen a post which matches Anglican's above for sheer crassness, and folly.

Utterly contemptible.

David B

23 February 2012 17:22  
Blogger john in cheshire said...

YG, I've sent a message to the Iranian government; Mr Larijani; asking for Mr Nadarkhani to be released and for him and his family to be allowed to live in peace. This attitude by the Iranian powers sounds very similar to the Iraqi attitude just before they hanged a journalist who was working for a Western news agency in Iraq.
It seems that the godless are ruling the world.

23 February 2012 17:45  
Blogger Kinderling said...

"And pray."

As if your God did not know and was not involved in the case from the smallest detail of before, present and future.

With Followers like these no wonder there is no enlightenment anywhere.

23 February 2012 17:49  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace. The Inspector was recently jarred when he saw an image on the net of two gay Iranian teenagers executed from a gibbet. Alas, for this monstrous regime, the Pastor’s end is just business as usual. Something else that is business as usual is the on-going development of their ‘weapons of mass destruction’ programme.

The time for talking is over. What needs to be done must to done now, if not now, then in the near future – Regime change. The Iranian people will continue to tolerate and even support their Islamic leadership but only up to a point. Make it too hot for them, and they will revolt and bring the clerics down…

Regrettably, the time has come for targeted air strikes on the country’s infrastructure. There will be casualties, but the cause is noble and just, and inevitable. If it’s left until their weapons are ready, then the country will be irradiated in retaliation anyway. Much of the land will be killed.

23 February 2012 17:55  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

David B snided...

"I have very rarely seen a post which matches Anglican's above for sheer crassness, and folly.

Utterly contemptible."

Oh I do hope your are referring to mine..If so, Ta very much.
High praise indeed and proof that Ernst must be doing something right!

Have at ye, secularist numpty. :P

E S Blofeld, You poor fool!

23 February 2012 18:50  
Blogger David B said...

Nope, it was Anglican I was referring to.

As being the first to make a completely unjustified slur on secularists in a thread where the gravity of the position of Christians, atheists and other muslims in certain parts of the Islamic world renders such a post to be in very poor taste, as well as stupid.

David B

23 February 2012 19:02  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Kinderling

As if your God did not know and was not involved in the case from the smallest detail of before, present and future.

God ordains both means and ends. It always helps to have some knowledge of theology before you attempt to talk about it.

Just sayin...

carl

23 February 2012 19:03  
Anonymous Atlas shrugged said...

I wish to add my weight to the argument that religion has never killed anyone or anything.

People kill people, the many and various excuses they give for doing so, is also their very own personal property, and no one else's.

Having said that, let us all remind ourselves as to what The Holy Bible has to say on this particular matter, as it is clear one or two of you people seem to suffer from selective memory loss.

Now, let me see.......Oh yes here it is

Thou shall not KILL.

Now it really cannot be simpler, or clearer then that, now can it?

Perhaps it is well past high time, Muslims, Jews as well as Christians starting practicing what they have not well enough been preaching for some considerable amount of time.

23 February 2012 19:28  
Blogger len said...

It is truly deplorable situation when someone stands to be executed for merely upholding the Christian faith.
This should not be possible in our present age but Christians are being persecuted and killed throughout the World.
We are approaching the final confrontation between the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and the 'god 'of this World and this I believe is one of the main reasons for the escalation of attacks upon Christians and Christian foundations, in fact anything relating to the God of the Bible is being attacked.

'For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.'(Ephesians 6:12)

23 February 2012 19:28  
Blogger David B said...

Len said 'It is truly deplorable situation when someone stands to be executed for merely upholding the Christian faith.'

Would you not agree, Len, that It is truly deplorable situation when someone stands to be executed for merely upholding or denying the any faith?

23 February 2012 19:57  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

Good old Tingey - atheists being murderers who murder in the name of atheism, our resident apostle of 'reason' declares communism to be a religion. A useful 'get out of jail' card, although presumably, drunk driving is a religion as well, since that also kills. Apparantly, in Tingey's 'rationalist' worldview, the definition of religion is anything which kills. Won't the world be a much better place when such as he rule it uncontested?

23 February 2012 20:11  
Blogger len said...

David B,

Yes.

23 February 2012 20:17  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Tingey you arse. Communism is NOT a religion. There is no deity involved. Instead you might call it secularists’ greatest achievement, or tragedy if you were a victim of it....

23 February 2012 20:54  
Blogger David B said...

Thank you for that, Len

David B

23 February 2012 21:28  
Blogger David B said...

Inspector, you miss use the word 'secularists' in your post.

I would suggest that communism is an ideology, and that religions are a subset of ideologies. Those that bind their proponents to the point of persecuting others, anyway.

Secularism is an ideology in the same way that 'off' is a TV channel, and there can be, and are, secularists of all religions and none.

Because secularism is the best guarantee of religious freedom, within sensible legal limits. We don't really want people imposing either Sharia or Old Testament justice on a vigilante justice, now, do we?

David B

23 February 2012 21:35  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Kinderling

God said: "And they have built the high places of Baal, to burn their children with fire for a holocaust to Baal: which I did not command, nor speak of, neither did it once come into my mind."
(Jeremiah 19:5)

It's called the 'Permissive Will' of God.

23 February 2012 21:41  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

David B: "Because secularism is the best guarantee of religious freedom, within sensible legal limits."

Especially in a culturally and religiously diverse place like the UK.

23 February 2012 21:46  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

David B. You suggest that secularists have no agenda. Everyone has an agenda. Perhaps you are a pure secularist, able to switch the ‘off’ button. You would be in the minority then. Yet an intelligent man like yourself should realise that man needs a set of ideologies to live under; it’s the human condition. We are lucky in the West that we have a Judeo-Christian set of values, which you yourself probably live by, though you may not realise it. All you can offer in it’s place is a vacuum. The Inspector won’t insult your intelligence by expanding further....

23 February 2012 21:51  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

David B
The "sensible legal limits" for religious freeedom being?

23 February 2012 21:54  
Blogger David B said...

@Dodo

Well we can start by not persecuting dissenters!

Obeying sensible discrimination laws, not beating up kids because it is scripturally justified, nor depriving them of blood transfusions, basically not trying to impose your religious rules, whether Sharia or Sabbath Day Observance Society, on other people of any religion or none.

Stuff like that.

David B

23 February 2012 22:01  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

"Obeying sensible discrimination laws etc ... etc ... stuff like that."

What might this all mean?

Britain already meets this standard - does it not?

But your not really content with this are you? You are a self-proclaimed anti-theist and see theism as harmful and want it eradicated.

Freedom to openly share one's faith and belief in God's will is anethema to you. A danger to the commonwealth of man. It would be defined as a breach of the peace or inciting hatred against a 'minority' group. Oh, I forgit, it already is!

Not content with this you now want marriage redefined. You want the education of children to include exposure to deviant lifestyles. You want an atheist state to reign supreme.

23 February 2012 22:24  
Anonymous John Adams said...

As Iran is a sovereign country, it does not require the permission of the United states or any of its imperialist hangers-on to carryout a death sentence.

23 February 2012 23:15  
Blogger David B said...

Dodo said

'Freedom to openly share one's faith and belief in God's will is anethema to you'

Nope - all I want is a level playing field,

Share your faith all you like, as long as I don't have to treat it with any more respect than you afford my view.

You shrill, strident, militant theist, you.

David B

23 February 2012 23:16  
Blogger MrTinkles said...

"REligion KILLS and tortures and lies and blackmails"

Here we go again...the atheist regime in China (for example) does the same.
In your terms, - atheism kills and tortures and lies and blackmails... it’s just that atheism does it far, far better...
But of course atheism doesn’t - any more than religion does. Dreadnought put it perfectly...its people who do so.

And David B...that makes little sense. Some atheists murder, rape and molest kids...perhaps we should have restrictions on atheistic beliefs.

And whether it is because they are mostly secular atheists or not, one is forced to wonder why, for example, the government should talk of withdrawing aid over persecution of gays but not take the same tactic over the persecution of Christians. Or why bodies such as the BBC should show the same bias in how it reports persecution around the world. After all, it's not as if Christian persecution is uncommon.

However, this evening it's rather more important to simply join my prayers with those of Your Grace and my other brothers (of whatever denominational flavour or political leaning) and lift up Pastor Youcef before his Father...
..."who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think"

23 February 2012 23:41  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

David B said ...

"Nope - all I want is a level playing field"

Is there such a thing? Society has to be organised around some principles which give more or less importance to certain values and beliefs as opposed to others.

Is it a level playing field to demand Christian's running a bed and breakfast establishment are compelled to open their home to those they regard as sinners?

Is it a level playing field to require a Catholic adoption agency to place children with those who do not subscribe to their faith?

Is it a level playing field for the police to arrest and charge a pastor for saying homosexuality is sinful in the eyes of God?

Is it a level playing field to remove from parents the right to educate their children about moral conduct in the expression of sexuality?

Is it a level playing field for clinics to dish out contraceptives to children?

Is it a level playing field to attempt to remove the consciencious objection clause from Christian doctors who object to performing abortions?

The level playing field you want is a godless playing field based on your secular 'religion'.

23 February 2012 23:51  
Blogger David B said...

In turn, Dodo, my views

If one has a bed and breakfast, then one shouldn't be allowed to turn away people on the basis of personal prejudice, even if one is a racist.

Catholic adoption agencies can do whatever they like, as long as they have no taxpayer funding. Else, not.

What is likely to cause a breach of the peace is problematical. I tend to incline towards freedom of speech, though lines should be drawn somewhere. Calling for the death of someone like Salman Rushdie is clearly over my line, but arguing against homosexuality is not. Though if I were to happen upon such a preacher I would want to be allowed to heckle.

I am unaware of any moves to remove the right of parents to talk to their children about their views of sexual morality.

I would rather kids who are going to have kids to have access to contraception.

I don't object to conscientious objection to performing abortions, or, for that matter, helping the terminally ill out of their distress if requested, as long as they can refer people to other doctors who have no such qualms.

And the playing field I want is secular, which is religion in the same sense as not collecting stamps is a hobby.

David B

24 February 2012 00:31  
Blogger David B said...

Tinkles - what have I said that makes little sense? Nothing you have said follows from anything I have said, as far as i can tell?

24 February 2012 00:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

David B

If one has a bed and breakfast, then one shouldn't be allowed to turn away people on the basis of personal prejudice,

So religious conviction is now reclassified as personal prejudice even though it's based on 2000 years of Church teaching?

Catholic adoption agencies can do whatever they like, as long as they have no taxpayer funding. Else, not.

And funding for all homosexual and allied groups would end too - just to keep the playing field level, you know? National lottery guidelines would be equalised too, would they?

I am unaware of any moves to remove the right of parents to talk to their children about their views of sexual morality.

You've not seen the national curriculum on sex education? Diversity and normalisation of homosexuality is the new mantra.

I would rather kids who are going to have kids to have access to contraception.

Christian parents would prefer it if children were taught at an appropriate age the meaning of sex and the morality associated with it.

I don't object to conscientious objection to performing abortions, or, for that matter, helping the terminally ill out of their distress if requested, as long as they can refer people to other doctors who have no such qualms.

But not funded by the public purse or would the State continue to fund abortions - a billion dollar industry of death - and ethenasia should it become lawful too?

24 February 2012 01:42  
Blogger Kinderling said...

A man is going to die. The Muslim is commanded to slay the unbeliever unless he submit to Allah and His Prophet.

Therefore praying to an All-Seeing God will have absolutely no effect, (He wont even go back in time and change his various scripts), unless you believe you are so stupid that God has to let you have enough icecream until you are sick. Maybe the law should be changed to only those over 21 allowed to mumble to themselves so the children are protected from superstition.

I'm not sure how sodomy got into the discourse on this thread, but someone coming to soil feaces onto your bedsheets and then leave their anal plugs behind is not desired. It is not their beliefs, but behavior to contend with. Without quarantine they successfully spread the HIV Virus from the least moral to the shores of the most moral, bridging every gap of sexual repression and still want to bring it on to fourteen year-olds.
Maybe Andrex should be promoting mint flavored wipelets. Nah, they get in the way of sensation.

24 February 2012 01:44  
Blogger David B said...

Dodo 'So religious conviction is now reclassified as personal prejudice even though it's based on 2000 years of Church teaching?'

It is religious conviction based on 1500 years of religious conviction that has led to the sorry mess that leads to someone being sentenced to death in Iran.

Let us have no particular respect for conviction based on religion and antiquity.

Christianity has historically proved no better, though fortunately it has been softened by enlightenment values and loss of temporal power.

Remember that quote of the Christian Talibanista, Thomas Aquinas that I posted a week or so ago?

David B

24 February 2012 08:09  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

OiG
"business as usual"
I'm afraid you are correct.

Various ...
How can you tell if it is a religion?
1: The body-count. If a large number of innocent people are killed in the name of the “holy cause”, whatever it is, then it is a religion, no matter what that particular set of true believers aver to the contrary.
2. Does it treat a sizeable section of the population as inferior? It is usually women who get this one in the neck, but not always or uniquely so. Think of “unclean” or “low-caste” or “kulak” as well.
3. Does the mention of Darwin or evolution send the fundamentalists into paroxysms? It is not just the more obviously brain-dead ( and therefore more faithful) christians who fulfil this test. Fundamentalist muslims will have no truck with evolution, because of the passage in the “Recital” about god creating man from drops of blood. (Blood origin, species, type, etc are unspecified.) The teachings of the priests of Krishna also try to rubbish evolution, and the ultra-orthodox jews believe in a “recent” creation. Marxism passes this test as well – the torture and death of Vavilov and other Darwinian geneticists in the Gulag being the example.
and on communism in particular ....

AND

Marxism is a religion.

I believe Bertrand Russell was the first to note this, but the behaviour of both individual Marxists, and marxist organisations, and the construction of their internal power organisation and heirarchies conforms to classical religious behaviour. For example: people read a set number of Trotsky’s saying each day, just as if he were Jesus, or Mahmud. Or appeal to “the historical inevitability of the revolution” etc …
I may add that it passes ALL the tests, if one cares to list them:
1] It has a “Holy” book or books.
2] The words in those books may not be questioned, even when demonstrated proven wrong.
3] It has sub-divisions and sects and “heresy”, and heretics, in Trevor-Ropers phrase are “even wronger” than unbelievers.
4] Those sects fight each other, either by open warfare or in internal pogroms.
5] It is structurally based on the RC church, complete with its own “holy office”
6] Which leads to the gulag – the communist equivalent of the churches years of penitence and autos-de-fé
7] Thousands if not millions are killed in the name of the “holy cause” to bring about a supposed millennium
8] It persecutes all the competing religions
9] In some sects it even denies Evolution by Natural Selection (look up Trofim Lysenko)

Right

Remember a secularist or an atheist would immediately also be killed or tortured or jailed in today's Iran - would they not?

Atlas shrugged
In that case, how do you account for ...
Albigensian crusade / Saint Bartholemew / Smithfield Fires (& others) / Giordano Bruno / the murders perpetrated by Calvin / der Dreiszigjahrenkrieg ....

corrigan1
read what I've written above?
Communism, being a religion, persecutes all the others - just as chritianity and islam do.
Communists murderd in the name of communism - their religion.

OiG
Ditto

MrTinkles
Ditto
You mentioned China - which is now a corporate fascist stae, in spite of its communoist label.
VERY confusing.
It's an old-fashioned Confucian dictatorship, actually. (probably)

24 February 2012 09:17  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

OiG
"business as usual"
I'm afraid you are correct.

Various ...
How can you tell if it is a religion?
1: The body-count. If a large number of innocent people are killed in the name of the “holy cause”, whatever it is, then it is a religion, no matter what that particular set of true believers aver to the contrary.
2. Does it treat a sizeable section of the population as inferior? It is usually women who get this one in the neck, but not always or uniquely so. Think of “unclean” or “low-caste” or “kulak” as well.
3. Does the mention of Darwin or evolution send the fundamentalists into paroxysms? It is not just the more obviously brain-dead ( and therefore more faithful) christians who fulfil this test. Fundamentalist muslims will have no truck with evolution, because of the passage in the “Recital” about god creating man from drops of blood. (Blood origin, species, type, etc are unspecified.) The teachings of the priests of Krishna also try to rubbish evolution, and the ultra-orthodox jews believe in a “recent” creation. Marxism passes this test as well – the torture and death of Vavilov and other Darwinian geneticists in the Gulag being the example.
and on communism in particular ....

AND

Marxism is a religion.

I believe Bertrand Russell was the first to note this, but the behaviour of both individual Marxists, and marxist organisations, and the construction of their internal power organisation and heirarchies conforms to classical religious behaviour. For example: people read a set number of Trotsky’s saying each day, just as if he were Jesus, or Mahmud. Or appeal to “the historical inevitability of the revolution” etc …
I may add that it passes ALL the tests, if one cares to list them:
1] It has a “Holy” book or books.
2] The words in those books may not be questioned, even when demonstrated proven wrong.
3] It has sub-divisions and sects and “heresy”, and heretics, in Trevor-Ropers phrase are “even wronger” than unbelievers.
4] Those sects fight each other, either by open warfare or in internal pogroms.
5] It is structurally based on the RC church, complete with its own “holy office”
6] Which leads to the gulag – the communist equivalent of the churches years of penitence and autos-de-fé
7] Thousands if not millions are killed in the name of the “holy cause” to bring about a supposed millennium
8] It persecutes all the competing religions
9] In some sects it even denies Evolution by Natural Selection (look up Trofim Lysenko)

Right

Remember a secularist or an atheist would immediately also be killed or tortured or jailed in today's Iran - would they not?

Atlas shrugged
In that case, how do you account for ...
Albigensian crusade / Saint Bartholemew / Smithfield Fires (& others) / Giordano Bruno / the murders perpetrated by Calvin / der Dreiszigjahrenkrieg ....

corrigan1
read what I've written above?
Communism, being a religion, persecutes all the others - just as chritianity and islam do.
Communists murderd in the name of communism - their religion.

OiG
Ditto

MrTinkles
Ditto
You mentioned China - which is now a corporate fascist stae, in spite of its communoist label.
VERY confusing.
It's an old-fashioned Confucian dictatorship, actually. (probably)

24 February 2012 09:17  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

David B

It is religious conviction based on 1500 years of religious conviction that has led to the sorry mess that leads to someone being sentenced to death in Iran.

Let us have no particular respect for conviction based on religion and antiquity.


You're comparing Christianity to Islam? Have you any historical understanding at all of the positive changes wrought in the world through the Christian Gospel? The values of the West are founded on Christianity - and you have no particular respect for them?

And the rest of my points?

Funding for all homosexual and allied groups would end alongside funding to religious bodies?

Christian based ethics would return as a part of sex education in schools?

Children would be taught about sex at an appropriate age and this would be ethically and omorally based?

Abortion and family planning clinics would no longer be funded by the State?

Just how would you create a 'level playing field'?

24 February 2012 10:45  
Anonymous hani said...

Freedom of expression is, and has always been a rare commodity in the Arab and Islamic world. The practice of Islam has, unfortunately, continued to suppress any tendency for individuality or any personal choice that defies social and or religious dogmas.. Having said that however, I as a born , non practicing , non believing, Arab Christian strongly disagree with some of the views below regarding the west's need for an equally unethical retaliation as Geoff below suggests for more than one obvious reasons,

Firstly "An eye for an eye " approach would only leave the whole word blind,

Secondly, such actions would only support the Muslim and right christian religious extremist agendas and once gain would send the whole world into a more vicious cycle of terror and violence,

Thirdly, those of us who still have certain modicum of sanity look with great respect to secular western ethics and hope that they would still prevail to ease such increasingly growing and indeed dangerous tension and divide between east and west

I realize that I am not putting solutions for the pastor's life threatening position.... But i hope that his faith in God would redeem him.

24 February 2012 11:06  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Does the mention of Darwin or evolution send the fundamentalists into paroxysms?

This is the point of this whole discourse: Do criticisms of someone's belief make them turn to Outrage as their defense?

If they make laws to silence riddicule by the imprisonment or death of an unbeliever, then their whole life is built on a sham. Any glint of truth will turn their fantasy world into a bed of shifting sand for these inverted-egotists. Violated as a child, proud as an adult.

The dhimmi.

24 February 2012 15:33  
Blogger Weekend Yachtsman said...

Stalin would have known what to do.

Either nothing ("see if we care") or "for every one of ours, a hundred of yours" - or a thousand, or however many it takes.

The point is not that Stalin was right, but to recall bin Laden's remark about the strong horse and the weak horse.

Surrender, apology, even compromise, gets you nowhere with these people.

I agree this doesn't advance the argument much.

24 February 2012 15:52  
Blogger Oswin said...

Hm, my email to the Iranian Embassy was returned by that 'mailer-daemon' thingy, stating that their (Embassy) In-box is full. Does anyone know what this means; is it the equivalent of leaving one's 'phone off the hook?

24 February 2012 16:00  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Oswin

It means they've been flooded with emails and cannot take anymore until they delete some.

So not of the hook, engaged more like. Try another address. They must have more than one.

24 February 2012 16:35  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

Dodo
You really do need psychiatric help

24 February 2012 18:00  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Tingey. You are not just against God, you are also against man’s interaction with man. You seem to be unable to take the unpalatable truth about ourselves, that we can do great evil as well as great good. You would rather anarchy in it’s philosophical meaning than risk any kind of human organisation, lest it deteriorate into the nightmare scenarios you remind us of ON A DAILY BASIS.

So far from the fearless warrior for humanity you might appear to some, you are in fact a rather gentle soul. Unfortunately for you, interaction is all we have. You can play your part not by helping to build a ‘better future’ as some advocate here by throwing out all that is good about our means of governance and culture, but by joining the rest of us to conserve it, and hope it can one day be exported to places like Iran.

24 February 2012 18:15  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Tingey

I will undergo an assessment if you will. Do pack a large suitcase before you attend your examination.

24 February 2012 19:10  
Blogger Oswin said...

I can't see them opening the gates for either of you; but I reckon old Moonpie might get out the sooner, for being 'mostly harmless'.

25 February 2012 00:06  
Blogger G. Tingey said...

OiG
Completely wrong - in fact "Not even wrong"

My father's generation spent all its treasure and a great deal of blood fighting an evil - which was not killed - "the shadow took another form and grew again"

What bothers me is that people are NOT prepared to fight against this.
It's easir to allow the islamicists or Hick Sanatorium to bully us.
Why do we do it, it's self-defeating.

Dodo
YES I AM comparing christianity to islam.
Bronze-Age goatherders vs Dark-AGes camelherders in fact
If you are so ignorant of christianity's bloody and intolerant history, I suggest you hie yourself unto a library.

25 February 2012 10:21  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Tingey. When arguing a point with someone, you have to put yourself in the other fellows shoes to see where he’s coming from. The problem is, the Inspector can’t find wherever it is you are, he doesn’t think anyone can. To be frank, you appear as a survivor from a Christian concentration camp, where you were routinely tortured and indoctrinated. Now, if someone can think that of you, you must ask yourself whether you have ‘issues’ that need to be addressed. Get yourself off to your GP and ask for a referral. You needn’t say much, just hand him a print of this post...

25 February 2012 12:35  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I understand (from a source I trust)that the man in question is a Unitarian i.e. he does not believe in the Trinity.If so, he is not a biblical Christian.
This, of course makes no difference to the rights and wrongs of his plight, but is worth noting for those praying for him.

25 February 2012 14:10  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Those doggone atheist socialist godless b******s are running with His Grace's campaign on Harry's Place.

25 February 2012 20:03  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, it's been entertaining reading this comment thread! Especially after reading on the ill-tempered Harry's Place. It's refreshing to see such Church of England-ish goodwill and general, vague, decency; it's like getting back in touch with my cultural inheritance.

On the other hand, the knowledge and wisdom of the contributors here does seem a little bit 'other worldly', with a ready knowledge of theology, a concern with the nature of religion, and only vague ideas about politics.

Some people on here believe that Islam is an intellectually weak religion which relies on coecrion to exist. I don't believe that's true. One person actually expressed the belief that Muslim's are required to kill non believers: that's definitely not true. Some have expressed the opinion that atheists are at risk of execution in Iran. That just doesn't ring true to me (though I honestly believe such a person would be frozen out of much of life and that an outspoken person might be positively persecuted.) It's been said that Iran hangs gay men from gibbets. But this is misleading, since there's much anecdotal evidence of homosexual behaviour in Iran, and the two executed Iranians were accused of rape. They were convicted of homosexuality, but the real reason they were killed - apparently - was the accusation of rape. In the same way, Nadarkhani has been convicted of apostasy, of being a Christian, but the REAL reason he's in trouble is that he protested against some of the material in the Iranian education system. He's being killed because the government cannot tolerate dissent. They're using their primitive and repulsive laws regarding apostasy.

Now, besides prayer, how can you help him? Well, direct pressure on the Iranian Embassy may help, perhaps, but it has little realpolitick value. Quite simply, Iran knows it is cut off from the West, and cares little about criticism from that quarter.

The Iranian governments' weak spot, then, lies in its relations with its allies and friends in the rest of the world. In particular, Russia, and South America. The Russian and Venezualan governments won't much care about human rights in Iran, but Ahmedinijad is hoping to court other South American nations, and they are democratic, and the Iranians won't want negative press in THOSE countries.
So the best way to help Nadarkhani is to contact your network of friends in South America, and have them campaign for his release there. To a lesser extent, letters from individuals and organisations in Russia or Venezuala, etc., would also help. And perhaps Anglican (or other) churchmen in Africa might be useful, and Iran is currently trying to build relations with India, so pressure from there will help.

So, in the unlikely event that any of you have any say in the matter, or the motivation to do anything, pressure needs to be put on Iran through those third party countries of whose opinion Iran is still quite sensitive.

That's my two penneth.

26 February 2012 03:52  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

The previous post is very much in the style of ace Islamist apologist Inyat Bunglawala - I urge HG not to be distracted.

26 February 2012 09:52  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Where are the mass 'Not in my Name' protests from the Muslims outside the Iranian Emabassies in the UK and elsewhere in the world? - They couldn't care less about the plight of one or two (dozen, hundreds, thousands) of Christians while lending their silence of approval to all the other murders being perpetrated by Muslims against anyone unwilling to submit to their oppression.

This detestable cancer has been allowed too much 'equality' and toleration and has no place in the West.

26 February 2012 10:12  
Blogger kendrick Morris said...

"One person actually expressed the belief that Muslim's are required to kill non believers"

In order to grow, every individual needs room to express themselves. If they are prevented, they remain stunted and infantile.

Islam takes no criticism.
Islam enslaves its own people to the decree of death for apostasy.
Islam enforces jizya Tax on non believers.
Mohammed was a thief, murderer, rapist and paedophile. Not opinions, just what the Hadith and surah books revealed. http://www.faithfreedom.org/

"One person actually expressed the belief that Muslim's are required to kill non believers"

Like any growing Outrage-community you live next to, one day you will have to face your liberalism, as they lobby for laws to take your rights away to think for yourself and your children are pressured to invert and claimed as one of their own.

26 February 2012 13:07  
Anonymous CBinTH said...

@Everybody
@Dreadnaught
@ Kendrick Morris

Firstly, I am not Inayat Bungawala. I forget who he is, is Inayat that Hamas guy, or the Jamaat-al-Islam Bangladeshi fundamentalist party supporter? My name is Christopher Bailey, I work in a call centre in East London, and I'm from the West Country. I had to use "anonymous" because otherwise I couldn't post my comment. I don't like telling who-knows-who my name, but I feel I have to, because what I said 4 posts above was actually quite important.

Iran has unfriendly relations with most of its immediate neighbours, and with Europe, the USA, Canada, Australasia Japan and South Korea. The old-fashioned "free world" will have nothing to do with Iran. Iran is hated by almost all the Arab world. Instead, Iran seeks to portray itself as the foremost resistor of American hegemony and to appeal to the anti-Western sentiment which exists especially in the 3rd world.

It therefore courts the friendship of anti-American nations, such as Russia and Venezuala, and of developing nations generally.

Iran spends a lot of time and effort on these relations, its President spends a great deal of time abroad, and it trumpets these relations to its own people. It's propoganda arm likes to say the British and Americans are "isolated."

So, Iran puts great store in its remaining diplomatic alliances, in Russia, Venezuala, and South America more generally. It is also courting India.

THEREFORE, it goes without saying that the way to pressure Iran is THROUGH THOSE COUNTRIES WHOSE FRIENDSHIP IRAN IS TTRYING TO DEVELOP. Obviously, public opinion matters little in Russia or Venezuala, but public opinion matters a great deal in Argentina, Brazil, South Africa or India. So if we want to help Nadarkhani then the best way to do so is through civil society organisations in those countries, whether it be the Churches, human rights charities, or the media.

I am a nobody with no ability to do anything, but Archbishop Cranmer is a well known blog, and therefore well-read, and perhaps if someone could promote this idea and someone with the ability to help came across it, then something practical could be done to help this man in Iran.

I am not an apologist for Islam or for Islamic extremism. There is a mid point between apologetics and bigotry, and I'm somewhere near it.

The Anglican Church abroad, newspapers abroad, letters from Amnesty supporters abroad, letters from Muslim organisations or governments abroad; all have more chance of influencing Iran than pressure from the UK or Europe.

26 February 2012 18:49  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

CBinTH
Thank you for clearing that up I apologise unreservedly for making such a suggestion.

26 February 2012 20:30  
Anonymous CBinTH said...

Thankyou!

27 February 2012 20:34  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Deadnaught said:

"This detestable cancer (Islam)has been allowed too much 'equality' and toleration and has no place in the West."

What are you proposing as the 'final' solution?

27 February 2012 23:02  
Blogger Kinderling said...

The Final Solution is the exact opposite of what communist Common Purpose have installed:
1. Sex Education is not about exploring every-which way you can abuse a body, (like learning about drugs so you-don't-try what is forbidden,"snigger"), but to respect the other person as an individual, to give, and not a commodity to consume for what you lack,
2. Society based on the merit of serving it, and not spurious extra-fairness for preferential groups to take and replace the able,
3 Religion based on the outflow of insight and not the inflow of superstition.

The reason the child is systematically intimidated and pressured to submit into the lowest beast, within a mediocre society, with the stupidest religion... is what the Socialists have witnessed in other countries: politicians/priests who run demoralized citizens are mult-millionaires!

The opiate of sex, vanity and Jinns. One life in Heaven for you, one life of heaven for them.

"for-get good; to-get better"

27 February 2012 23:51  
Blogger Kinderling said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

27 February 2012 23:52  
Blogger EBL said...

I pray this is not true.

4 March 2012 06:10  

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