Saturday, March 17, 2012

Rowan Williams - a true Prince of the Church

Within seconds of the first Twitter rumours about an imminent announcement from Lambeth Palace concerning the resignation Dr Rowan Williams, the obituaries were spouting forth for the 104th Archbishop of Canterbury. And they fell into two main camps: on the one hand, there are those who remember him for perpetual near-schism over gay priests; further near-schism over women bishops; paralysis and inaction over the Pope's 'imaginative pastoral response' of the Ordinariate; and the folly of the announcement about the inevitability of sharia law in the UK. And, on the other hand, there are those which pay tribute to the towering intellect of the theologian, philosopher, poet and dear friend.

His Grace is not going to add substantially to either. As with all biography and hagiography, the truth lies somewhere between the two, and this blog has attempted to bridge the gulf a number of times (see here, here, here and here (and not forgetting here]).

The reality is that people have been prophesying the demise of the Church of England since it was established: it was once referred to as being ‘crucified between two thieves’ - the respective fanaticism and superstition of ‘the Puritans and the Papists’. There is a modern parallel with a church now suspended between the decline in institutional religion and the burgeoning of generalised ‘spirituality’; between the secularisation of society and the plurality of faith communities. The postmodern context is marked by diversity, fragmentation and all that is transitory; beliefs and practices are culturally relative, and Anglicanism has ceased to be supra-cultural or catholic.

Rowan Williams has perpetuated the via media for a further decade, against all the odds and contra all the prophets of doom. Whether or not you agree with him, you must concede that this is evidence of his considerable ability to sustain dialogue and relationship and keep people in communion with one another. It might be imperfect, but if the Lord's command for us to love one another means anything, it must be that we remain friendly when we do not agree. The Church has always struggled with the tension between affirmation of the gospel and assimilation to the prevailing culture; between transformation and inculturation. Establishment commits the Church to full involvement in civil society and to making a contribution to the public discussion of issues that have moral or spiritual implications. If Rowan Williams has shown us anything, it is that these cannot easily be reduced to soundbites, neat headlines or trite blogposts: profound matters demand profound contemplation and an articulation which does them justice. More often than not, Dr Williams has been purposely woefully misunderstood and misreported by a ferociously judgmental and hostile press. His successor will fare no better: it is the zeitgeist.

We are no longer in an age, if ever we were, where the Archbishop of Canterbury can impose a morality or a doctrine of God. Archbishop Rowan saw his primary function as being the acutely political one of calling the state to account by obstinately asking the Government about its accountability and the justification of its priorities. He may sometimes have been a thorn in the Prime Minister's side; he might even have been a 'disaster' on the political front and occasionally infuriating. But being the very incarnation of the command to love, he was and remains a true Prince of the Church.

211 Comments:

Blogger raggedclown said...

It's been all downhill since Robert Runcie.

17 March 2012 at 12:57  
Blogger Jocelyn Knockersbury said...

I think he's a marvelous chap.

17 March 2012 at 13:07  
Blogger Corrigan1 said...

"Superstition of the Papists", eh Cranmer. Couldn't resist it, could you?

17 March 2012 at 13:25  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

I always had admiration for Archbishop Williams. However, I don't fully accept your comment Mr Cranmer that:

"We are no longer in an age, if ever we were, where the Archbishop of Canterbury can impose a morality or a doctrine of God."

I agree moral leadership and articulating Christian doctrines requires sensitivity and judgement and cannot simply be imposed. Truth has to be taught and reasoned from Scripture.

Nevertheless, as the Spiritual Head of Anglicanism, surely the Archbishop's first loyalty is to Christ and His unaltering message and not to protecting an institution from schism?

The next Lambeth Conference will be an indication of the success of the Archbishop's 'political' approach to managing the tensions within Anglicanism between liberal modernity and traditionalism.

17 March 2012 at 13:28  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

A bearded left wing fool put there by a nefarious socialist government. And they succeeded in their aims. A man who found the job difficult. One knows that such men who encounter difficulty in their work are just not doing it right.

Begone you disappointment, we will not hear from you again....

17 March 2012 at 14:01  
Blogger Melvin Cragsbury (a pseudonym) said...

Your Grace is as ever erudite. But I have another opinion.

The immediate coverage of who the runners and riders might be is terribly amusing. I view this debate as something akin to forming a committee on the bridge of the Titanic to decide who should man the wheel as all the while the good ship sails full steam ahead at the iceberg. Church attendance is a straight line graph down and has been for decades.

Williams was a well-documented very Left wing academic with rather silly hair. He kept confusing his religious role with the idea that he might have something useful or meaningful to say on politics. Clerics should concentrate on helping the poor and needy, not lecturing democratically elected prime ministers on what government should be doing.

His watch has been dogged by the two issues of women and gays. The C of E needs to sort its act out here badly. Can women be priests or not? If they can, then they should be able to be priests at every rank of the priesthood, even Archbishop of Canterbury. Likewise, is being gay evil or not? It is not defensible to say you can be gay as long as ‘you don’t inhale’. These two issues show the church’s utterly unprincipled attempt to try and ride a horse in two directions at once.

I think we all want absolute clarity from our religious leaders. Just be firm in your view, then we can decide whether we agree or not. (On gays, Mr Cragsbury is firmly of the good Conservative view that everyone should be free to make their own choices. Be gay or straight or bisexual if you want to. I just don’t care. Your life, your choice. And on women priests, it’s all in or all out. Anything in the middle is just a muddle).

And for Williams' tenure to be completely dominated by these two issues and not the really important moral issues of the day, just shows how lost they all are. Get a grip.

So, advice for the new High Priest:

Sort out your doctrine as your believers are deserting you. You are becoming irrelevant to the majority of the population.

Tell the African and Asian clergy and all the other sexists to poke off. People, be what you want. If that means having gay and bisexual priests, then so be it.

And stop wandering into politics and concentrate on doing good for the poor and needy. It will help us all take you seriously and help you rebuild your brand and membership.

Melvin Cragsbury

(http://howdidwecometothis.blogspot.co.uk/)

17 March 2012 at 14:11  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

RW departs his position with the Communion intact but mortally wounded. He has spent the whole of his tenure fighting to maintain the status quo, and this is the cost of his effort. Formal stasis was achieved by destroying all the instruments of communion and shattering the functional unity that once existed. His battle cry might as well have been "Not on my watch!" Now he will slink off to academia and become one again the good liberal that liberals expected him to be as AoC.

If only had followed through. RW would set up one process after another to solve the problems and then sabotage each process in turn lest it solve the problem. He did it again and again and again. He sabotaged the Primates in 2007 over TECs non-response to the his own Windsor process. He sabotaged Lambeth in 2008 by inviting Bishops he said he wouldn't invite. He sabotaged his own covenant in Jamaica lest it actually contain some teeth. And as a result of his every duplicitous action, he has destroyed the credibility of his own office. This is his true legacy. But it will be truly said of him that the Communion did not formally end on his watch.

One can understand his dilemma. He didn't want to choose between the post-modern western churches and the rest of the Communion. What is it some wag said? "Keep the Africans praying, the Americans paying, and the CoE making all the decisions." That was his institutional priority; the loadstone that guided his efforts. He couldn't let conservative dominance of the Instruments be used against TEC. That would have meant the loss of American money. Worse, it would have exposed the CoE to the same discipline once the CoE had completed its own journey along TECs well-trodden path. He couldn't just ignore the conservatives, however, because they represent the bulk of the church. If they departed, the AC would have become a post-modern collection of irrelevant dying churches. Even worse, the de facto power of that rump liberal communion would have shifted to NYC. So he delayed, delayed, delayed. There was nothing else to do for one who refused to make a choice.

He could have been hot. He could have been cold. He chose to stay luke warm. And now he slips away before anything gets spit out of the mouth.

carl

17 March 2012 at 14:14  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace. The Archbishop of Canterbury is a leader or he is nothing. Instead of wrestling with his conscience on how to keep the Anglican communion together, he should have made his detracting clergy wrestle with theirs, sprinkled liberally with invitations to resign their cosseted positions if they were unable to hold HIS line. Let the Inspector tell, that marks out a leader. Williams was no leader.

17 March 2012 at 14:15  
Blogger Lakester91 said...

Religion is not politics. A leader of a nation needs to keep the people together, a leader of a faith is there to preach the truth.

The AbofC is no doubt an intelligent and faithful man, but he is not a good leader. Forgoing depth of faith in favour of breadth he has seen Britain become a Catholic majority country again. That is to say, there are now more practising Catholics in this country than practising Anglicans. For a country where most people call themselves Anglican by default this is unbelievable.

The Anglican Church need someone like Pope Benedict XVI. Someone willing to drag the Church back to the truth, bring the dissenters back into line and bring back true education to the children. The atheists celebrate the death of Christianity too early as those '60s hippy sandal wearing Bishops are retiring and being replaced with more orthodox men. The signs are slow, but ordinations are rising and the fall in mass attendance is slowing. If the Anglican Church could do the same we could see a massive resurgence of the faithful in this country.

The Arch-Druid is a great man, but I don't think he was the right man for the job.

17 March 2012 at 14:54  
Blogger Oswin said...

As Lakester says above, a good man, but the wong man. 'Goodness' should be enough, but it has seldom ever been the case. We need the right man for the job, warts and all; but not a Cromwell!

Let us pray that Dr.Williams' successor is such a man.

17 March 2012 at 15:46  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Oswin. Don’t be surprised to find Cameron appointing a practicing bugger...

17 March 2012 at 16:10  
Blogger non mouse said...

Thank you for reverting to the kind of post I can read, Your Grace. So long as I keep the nauseatingly obscene picture below out of the frame, today is OK:)! Please don't misunderstand ... I see the sense of addressing your last topic, and in terms that are acceptable to the p-m context and your majority readership. I regret, rather, that homosexual aggression -- a characteristic especially noticeable among their females -- has forced us into battle at all. That the fight should be on their terms shows how much ground they have already claimed. We need to know that.

As you suggest, the same terms have determined this situation:
More often than not, Dr
Williams has been purposely woefully misunderstood and misreported by a ferociously judgmental and hostile press. His successor will fare no better: it is the zeitgeist.
Of course I deplore the german term - particularly as I am now seldom allowed to use our native 'Holy Ghost' rather than the Unholy Roman word. I daresay 'holy' itself will be "banished" along with English, once the useful idiots have served their purpose.

You are absolutely right, though, that Dr. Williams' successor must suffer the same insults. Everything he does will afford The Enemy a chance to leap and damage him, for the war is about power to dominate, and he will be the last bastion of hope for Great Britain and its culture.

The cowards who presently dictate the terms you reference not only revel in physical filth and disorder, their intent is to grind everything into it. Nothing may stand that renders life worthwhile for good or gentle people.

The present fight is thus for the preservation of integrity at all levels in this life. The horrible irony, as ever, is that each of us fights for his or her soul--

17 March 2012 at 16:27  
Blogger A.K.A. Damo Mackerel said...

@Lake.

'Forgoing depth of faith in favour of breadth he has seen Britain become a Catholic majority country again.'

I thought Anglicans were Catholics too?

17 March 2012 at 16:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

It'll be Sentamu next, I suppose, after his recent pitch.

17 March 2012 at 16:39  
Blogger len said...

I see the Catholic' vultures' are already circling anticipating some 'good pickings'.

I would seem that this once great Country which sent Missionaries all around the Globe is in dire need of some itself!.

A 'State religion simply doesn`t work!.I include Catholicism in that because they formed their' own state 'a Catholic engineered one!.

True Christianity cannot be 'united' with the World system because the end result will be compromise which will ultimately. lead to spiritual death.

The UK is fast becoming a ' spiritual dead zone' .Religion of whatever variety cannot restore life to dead bodies only the Power of God can do that.

IF we return to Biblical principles (and thereby to God ) then .... He will heal our Land..... the alternative is we will be living in a spiritually dead, morally bankrupt Society in an ever steepening decline.

17 March 2012 at 16:40  
Blogger Fausty said...

"Archbishop Rowan saw his primary function as being the acutely political one of calling the state to account by obstinately asking the Government about its accountability and the justification of its priorities. "

At a time when the state says it seeks to be detached from religion, why does it still appoint Archbishops?

If the government is to get its way on "gay marriage", should it not be first asked to explain this apparent anomaly?

17 March 2012 at 17:01  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

len
Yes, yes, but the issue is how? Do stop bleating about the 'end is nigh' and contribute some ideas.

What can you offer? Apart, that is, from an endless stream of pessimism and criticism of 'organised religion' and telling us we must all be "born again" like you.

And I think you'll find, on balance, the Anglicans posting on here are being much more critical of Rowan Williams than the Catholics.

17 March 2012 at 17:40  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

DanJ0 said ...
"It'll be Sentamu next, I suppose, after his recent pitch."

What's the matter, worried the Church of England might just appoint an Archbishop with a clear moral position on your chosen lifestyle?

Sentamu is not the sort of man who "pitches". He stood his ground at great personal peril against Idi Amin and will, I'm sure, if appointed, be very clear and unequivocal about the unacceptabilty of homosexuality within the Church.

I suspect he is a man who will not attempt to play politics with the Truth as he sees it,whatever the consequences.

17 March 2012 at 17:47  
Blogger uk Fred said...

It is clear that there is one outstanding candidate for the position of ABofC, and he was not born in this country. I refer of course, not to John Sentamu, an excellent second choice, but rather to Michael Nazir-Ali the former Bishop of Rochester.

17 March 2012 at 18:12  
Blogger Anna Anglican said...

For all those who choose to pour scorn and vitriol on Rowan Williams, it is easy to do this from the safety of your PC screen. None of you would be able to do the work he has done, in the full global public glare.

To Rowan I say be proud and glad that you know you have tried your hardest, achieved more than many, and stayed true to your heart and faith, you are a great mind in a muddlesome world!

Such a shame that a forward thinking Archbishop of Canterbury feels that it is necessary to leave. He has tried hard to drag the Church of England into the 20th or even 21st century, in spite of the Luddites who always resist progress.

If we had more forward thinking people in the churches and fewer of old fashioned bible bashers with closed minds, then the churches would be full again!

17 March 2012 at 18:37  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

Like most monks and wizards and head Druids, of human sky gods. he would have been better off making the booze in some rural monestary. He has keep the Anglicans together - but at the point of compromise of his own beliefs. Does this make him a weak or a strong man? Has be done enough to keep his Church together? Only time will tell.

17 March 2012 at 18:51  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Anna
I take it the "Luddites who always resist progress" are those opposed to the positive acceptance and endorsement of homosexuality and those who see good theological reasons for resisting the introduction of women priests .

And, by contrast, the"forward thinking people in the churches opposed to the old fashioned bible bashers with closed minds, are the anything goes because Jesus loves you, baby, brigade?

Good Lord, is it any wonder the job of ABC is proving impossible?

17 March 2012 at 18:57  
Blogger Anna Anglican said...

@Dodo, yes JESUS DOES LOVE ME AND THE WORLD. Just reading John 13 vs 34 to 35 is a good example. And lest we forget Jesus came into this world not to condemn it, but to save it!

17 March 2012 at 19:02  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Anna Anglican

If we had more forward thinking people in the churches and fewer of old fashioned bible bashers with closed minds, then the churches would be full again!

The only things about which people have an 'open mind' is other peoples' presuppositions. Never their own. So don't trumpet your own open-mindedness. You don't possess it either. And you really haven't made much of an argument by making references like "forward-thinking." Direction requires a reference, and I will simply ask you for the reference that defines 'forward.' Strangely enough, you won't be able to produce it.

carl

17 March 2012 at 19:11  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

uk fred

What chance Michael Nazir-Ali? His views on marriage and childhood, homosexuality, Islam and multiculturalism, certainly make him standout!

Marriage and parenthood: "It is very important for the Church to continue saying that having children and their nurture is a basic good of marriage and not an optional extra."

Homosexuals: should "repent and be changed".

Islam: "their complaint often boils down to the position that it is always right to intervene when Muslims are victims... and always wrong when Muslims are the oppressors or terrorists".

Multiculturalism: "an agenda which still lacks the underpinning of a moral and spiritual vision", and governments should make a public affirmation of the "Christian roots of British society".

Ummm ... can't see Cameron recommending him to Her Majesty.

17 March 2012 at 19:12  
Blogger Youthpasta said...

I believe that Carl got closer to the mark than your assessment, Your Grace.

Whilst it cannot be denied that RW has shown that the CofE can still produce some true intellectuals, sadly this has done but a few positive things and thy are highly unlikely to have a lasting impact on things.

As Carl said, RW's fudging on key issues (women bishops and the whole gay issue, for example) has led to further splintering and making the odds of a sizeable group surviving to take the role of the national church slim at best. Rather than espouse gospel principles, RW came across far more as a secular politician.

And we only have to look at when he did speak for the Christian faith (like the Dawkins debate) to see that he could do it and come across well, but those moments were sadly fleeting. Is it any wonder that some people have such a lack of understanding of what Christianity actually is when the leader of the CofE is only?

Whoever takes up the reigns will have to act swiftly and firmly to regain the support of majority of the church (traditionalists and evangelicals particularly) both at home and abroad and make sure that the Anglican Church is seen to act on what it believes, rather than the mess that was created with the Windsor Report.

17 March 2012 at 19:35  
Blogger Youthpasta said...

Oh dear, Anna. Can I suggest looking at what you know about God and asking yourself where you learned it from. Why do you despise the Bible so?
Also, you might want to look into the most recent church attendance figures. I think you'll find that the churches that are growing are the ones you pour scorn on with your "bible bashes" comment.

17 March 2012 at 19:42  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Youthpasta

Whoever takes up the reigns will have to act swiftly and firmly to regain the support of majority of the church (traditionalists and evangelicals particularly) both at home and abroad

The problem with your otherwise reasonable assessment is that the leadership of the CoE has no interest in doing any such thing. It is in fact firmly committed to following TEC into prophetic oblivion. Once a hierarchical church is captured by this counterfeit called 'Liberal Christianity' it is lost as an organization.

The politics of the moment will drive the next selection of AoC. That selection will be worse than RW. There won't be an orthodox replacement. Even if there was an orthodox replacement, he couldn't get the CoE to follow him. There are already too many liberals in place. The only way to actually fix the CoE would be to expunge these liberals from the leadership positions they hold. Who has the both the power and the will? How would it be accomplished? There is no answer.

The future of Anglicanism in the UK will be found outside of the CoE or there will be no future Anglicanism in the UK.

carl

17 March 2012 at 19:51  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "What's the matter, worried the Church of England might just appoint an Archbishop with a clear moral position on your chosen lifestyle?"

The Church of England is an irrelevance to modern society, it just hasn't quite realised it yet. He may well have a "clear moral position" but then many imams have a "clear moral position" too. Neither of us is going to come out well as far as imams are concerned. Such is religious morality: pick your god from the plethora, make up your premises about reality, and proceed in an authoritarian manner towards your fellow man.

17 March 2012 at 19:54  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Anna Anglican

Such is religious morality: pick your god from the plethora, make up your premises about reality, and proceed in an authoritarian manner towards your fellow man.

That would be DanJ0 being "open-minded" about his own presuppositions.

carl

17 March 2012 at 20:00  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Carl: "That would be DanJ0 being "open-minded" about his own presuppositions."

That's me observing the many and various religions and the behaviour of their adherents. Is there anything factually wrong with what I said other than, perhaps, that people pick a religion? They're indoctrinated as children in their parent's religion for the most part and choose not to leave it behind afterwards. It's still picking it, just not particularly freely.

17 March 2012 at 20:07  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

DanJ0

No, there is nothing wrong with your facts ... given the presupposition that God doesn't actually exist. But that was my whole point. If you were to ask me, you would discover that man does not choose God. Rather it is God who chooses man. Which makes your facts rather wrong indeed.

carl

17 March 2012 at 20:23  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Carl: "No, there is nothing wrong with your facts ... given the presupposition that God doesn't actually exist."

Which theistic or deistic god?

Almost everyone in Saudi Arabia seem to have found Allah whereas many people in Spain seem to have found YHWH and most people in India seem to have found Brahman. A relatively open-minded person might wonder why that is.

Why presuppose a theistic god exists? Isn't it the natural thing to leave it as an unanswered, or perhaps unanswerable, question rather than make a leap to something specific that is unfounded or ungrounded?

17 March 2012 at 20:45  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

DanJ0

Some start from the position that a God does exist and seek knowledge of Him. Others refuse to accept a God exists at all and don't look. Yet others have an open mind and make further enquiries.

Which group are you in?

17 March 2012 at 21:06  
Blogger bluedog said...

Your Grace, perhaps the Anglican Communion would benefit from a Dream Team of John Sentamu as ABC and Michael Nazir-Ali as AB of York.

Both are somewhat less than hideously white, which is likely to appeal to Dave with his emphasis on the superficial. Fortunately both are very substantial gentlemen theologically and together they may buy time for the CofE. Any organisation that is losing market share at the rate of the CofE needs to try something new. Same old, same old won't help.

It is merely a matter of persuading Nazir-Ali to leave Oxford as his nemesis Williams arrives.

Time would appear to be of the essence. Given the number of outstanding issues facing the Church both within and without, allowing Williams a nine months victory lap of the Anglican Communion is pointless. The danger is that following Williams departure at end 2012 there will be an interregnum while Dave confers with Clegg, who refers to van Rompuy in Brussels, before the next incumbent is appointed well after the enactment of say, SSM. An accelerated appointment schedule seems critically important.

17 March 2012 at 21:10  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Your Grace,

You humble us all with your balanced analysis of Rowan Willians. I hope he enjoys Cambridge and let us pray that the Holy Spirit will give us a leader that can move the Church forward in its Holy Mission to make disciples of all nations.

17 March 2012 at 21:19  
Blogger bluedog said...

Thanks, Mr Twigg, noted!

17 March 2012 at 21:30  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

I see that Dodo has adopted the symbol of the Eire part of the Celtic Confederacy (humans ethnic Irish, Welsh, Scotch and Cornish blood) located in the Kernewek Solar System.

I am currently sipping my 22nd Pint of the Gusiness stout on the planet of Baile Atha Claith. Very friendly the Irish-Celtic chaps (for some reason they like the fact that my skin colour is GREEN).

Now, it seems to me that Anna Anglican worships the worng sky god- clearly the people here do not believe she should be a Christian or a gay or be part of the Church. Thus she should look elsewhere and believe in another sky god- who seems to hate the gay more than anything else (going by the comments on this blog).

As for Danjo - I understand that you have ignored me because you are a gay Lord ; I am of noble birth as well, so you can address me as an equal without resorting to intermediaries.

You are apparently an atheist- presumably from Venus, the home of atheist- humanist- nudist- telepathic-human civilisation?

17 March 2012 at 21:37  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

@Youth Pasta

you also seem to worship the wrong sky god; you should align yourself with Carl Jacob's God and be done with it.

17 March 2012 at 21:39  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

What is the Alpha Draconis on about now? The ravings of a lunatic.

17 March 2012 at 22:03  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

DanJ0

Why presuppose a theistic god exists?

It is a self-evident truth. Everything around you testifies to the power and glory of God. You suppress that testimony in willful unbelief. That's the irony of this situation. Your denial of theism seems just as irrational to me as my assertion of theism seems to you.

carl

17 March 2012 at 22:05  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
Anna said @ 18:37. If we had more forward thinking people in the churches and fewer of old fashioned bible bashers with closed minds, then the churches would be full again!
I wonder whether she thinks that God is forward thinking and progressive? And what would the churches be full of? I remember the Sunday Times about 25 years ago compared two churches. One a dry Anglican, the other a swinging from the chandeliers type with multiple services to accommodate everyone. The leader of the full church was asked why his church was so full. His reply was that I give them what they want.
Since when has the Gospel of Jesus become flexible to meet the demands of the people?
I would say that if we had more people who took the word of God seriously and accepted that it meant what it said, we would then have full churches with repentant hearts and a true desire to do the work of god as set out in scripture.

Back to the thread, I always thought Williams to be a bit of a Druid. More recently I have realized that he is a great academic and a deep thinker. He still should not have got the job.
Michael Nazir-Ali was the favourite at the time but was bypassed by Blair because of his views on homosexuality among other things. Having recently met him I still think he is the ideal man for the job.
Sentamu is equally good but can’t be understood and does not have the sophisticated charisma of Nazir-Ali.

17 March 2012 at 22:17  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

17 March 2012 at 22:21  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Anna;
Just read another of your missunderstandings. Jesus came into the world to save it FROM IT'S SIN i.e. Your sin and my sin.

17 March 2012 at 22:21  
Blogger Anna Anglican said...

Mr Integrity, no it is not one of my misunderstandings.

John 3 VS 17-18

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son".

17 March 2012 at 22:30  
Blogger Anna Anglican said...

Mr Youth pasta, no I don't hate the Bible and don't put words into my mouth please.

17 March 2012 at 22:31  
Blogger Anna Anglican said...

Carl Jacobs said (asde from much gloating about the Anglican Church, just as Dodo does):

"The only things about which people have an 'open mind' is other peoples' presuppositions. Never their own. So don't trumpet your own open-mindedness. You don't possess it either. And you really haven't made much of an argument by making references like "forward-thinking." Direction requires a reference, and I will simply ask you for the reference that defines 'forward.' Strangely enough, you won't be able to produce it".

1. How do you know I am not open minded? I am open minded enough to believe in a God and a Christian one at that, despite my 1. Sexuality and the right's hatred of that and 2. My physics background, which lends towards a disbelief in a God.

2.I can actually produce proof of forward thinking and my reference. From the Bible:

"Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

This is called the great commission. Where is the bit about gay bashing in that?

17 March 2012 at 22:40  
Blogger Phil said...

Anna Anglican

"Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

This is called the great commission. Where is the bit about gay bashing in that?


.......................


Anna read the passage you quoted (reproduced above) again

It answers your own question.

God bless you

Phil

17 March 2012 at 22:54  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Anna said,
Whoever believes in him is not condemned,
Is this all one has to do to be saved, just believe in him?
The Devil also believes in him. Will he be saved? I really do think you need to re study the Bible to find the bits you have left out.
Where does repentance fit into salvation in your scheme of things?

17 March 2012 at 22:56  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

This is the time to save the Anglican church from humanism. There will come a time when no belief in God is not a bar to the ministry. Anna take note of this this. Liberalism, allowing bishops and even priests to decide what Christianity is has been a disaster. Falling church numbers confirm that. Is this the last chance, well yes. Give the middle classes Christianity, and the lower classes will be interested. If they are not, they can go to hell, where a large part of them are destined for anyway....

17 March 2012 at 22:59  
Blogger Anna Anglican said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

17 March 2012 at 22:59  
Blogger Anna Anglican said...

Mr Integrity- you have all the asnwers and clearly know more about the Bible than me! So you tell me, I'm simply quoting God's Gospel to you.

PS- NO I AM NOT THE DEVIL, you insulting little man.

17 March 2012 at 23:01  
Blogger Anna Anglican said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

17 March 2012 at 23:05  
Blogger Anna Anglican said...

Mr Alpha,

Arn't you supposed to be engaged in battle with some other aliens, rather than sipping stout?

No I don't think I follow the wrong sky god. It is not God's fault- it is just the prejudice of a few on this blog that confuse the teachings of Jesus with socially conservative political worldview.

Even the conservative party- to which I am a member- is welcoming gay people-in the UK, Iain Dale, Nigel Evans and Geert Wilders in the Netherlands is also supportive of gay rights and the works of log cabin republicans in America and LGBTory in the UK, to name but a few- but these die in the wool culturally conservatives can't grasp that.

To my mind the modern conservative party should focus on:

1)Balanced budgets and fiscal discipline

2)Comprehensive tax reform

3)Revitalizing Social Security through allowing individuals to invest in their futures and a dismantling of the benefit bums welfare state

4)Strong national defence

5)Legal immigration reforms that are fair and humane

6)Marriage equality for all British people (and Americans, Europeans and anyone else that wishes to leave the dark ages behind).

7)Market driven health reform

8)The UK to withdraw from the EU and replaced with a free trade treaty and links to the Commonwealth trading partners.

9)An investment in a UK space programme to include the building of a space station.

10) A Parliament for England.

Anyhow enjoy your stout.

17 March 2012 at 23:09  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Anna
This isn't about "gay bashing". It isn't about your sexuality and how you choose to express it. You are who you are. It is about God and His revealed will for us as His creation.

Just what did Jesus mean when He said: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son"? And when He said: " ... teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you"?

Doesn't believing in Jesus mean some reformation of our lives? An examination of our predispostion to see if it is towards Him and others or towards ourselves?

Put this into the context of Jesus' teaching about His Father. What is meant by "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"? What did Jesus mean when He said: "But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it"? Or when He commanded us to: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength"?

So please get off the 'I'm hard done by; God loves and accepts me' soap box. Of course He loves and accepts you. According to the Bible, God wants us all to live our lives according to His revealed will and He will give us the strength to understand and to do this through a relationship with His Son.

We are all sinners and without a union with Christ we stand condemned. However, simply believing in Jesus and then ignoring His teachings and the clear will of God, and even justifying this, is hardly a relationship.

17 March 2012 at 23:13  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Rather think Anna has embraced lesbianism as a result of amorality. Shame on you girl. Return to to God’s intention for women, the raising of the next generation...

17 March 2012 at 23:22  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector said ...

"There will come a time when no belief in God is not a bar to the ministry."

The time has already come. One doesn't have to accept the Apostles Creed these days to be an Anglican minister in some parts of the world wide communion and this has spread like a virus.

You see, it's old fashioned to believe in the Incarnation, the atonement on the Cross, the resurrection, or even in a personal God.

17 March 2012 at 23:24  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

In your view, then Anna, would you say that Jesus was a Progressive (in the political sense of the term)?

You've mentioned getting rid of the rabid monsters of cultural conservatism - do you see this political stance as incompatible with Christianity? Are such people, in your view Christian? Do their political stances constitute false teaching?

I'm asking these sincerely rather than rhetorically (as I realise it isn't always possible to tell in a forum medium).

17 March 2012 at 23:28  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

Your Grace,

It would seem to me, as said above, that Anna Anglican is wasting the small time frame that she has on this planet attempting to believe in a god, which, according to the other christians on this blog dislike her and her views and her sexuality(even though your holy books say she was made in the image of that very same god-but I shall leave that paradox to the devout!) and everything that she is; take Dodo's comments ergo 'god loves you, it's not about being gay, but you can't be a gay'.

So as per my previous suggestion to Anna Anglican, the logic of the situation is that she finds an alternative religion that is more in tune with her own beliefs- after all this christian god does not care about her, or at least the other followers of it don't-so why bother spending your life worshiping it and being in a church which so despises what you are?

Try something else- the Venusian Freedom Church, the Lav Communion, or the Church of the Latter Day Martians seem to fit the bill.

If not simply don't believe- afterall what have you got to loose? Being a gay your as good as dead anyway, as it would seem not much can be done for you.

As Mr Integrity says your the satan (whatever that is) for quoting the scripture against him or as Phil says the quote shows the anti-gay message of the bible (even though I personally couldn't find the killer line "God says he hates gays -and don't make them disciples and don't let them into my Kingdom").

17 March 2012 at 23:36  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Carl: "It is a self-evident truth."

No doubt muslims say the very same thing, only it's self-evidently a different god to them. It's not actually self-evident at all, we simply don't know and some of us are happy enough with that.

17 March 2012 at 23:45  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Your Grace,

personally, I can't see why everyone is rounding on Anna Anglican- doesn't seem like what Jesus Christ would do to me.

17 March 2012 at 23:49  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

she finds an alternative religion that is more in tune with her own beliefs

You either believe in Christ or you don’t. Following you own beliefs is what heathens do....

17 March 2012 at 23:53  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

Inspector, most interesting. Mr Integrity was berating Anna Anglican for only believing in god, saying your satan also did the same, as if that was not enough.

So who holds the truth in this matter?

In any case if following this god of your involves your beliefs and conduct, then I wouldn't touch it with a mile long barg pole!

17 March 2012 at 23:58  
Blogger Anna Anglican said...

@Alpha,

Inspector and Mr Integrity are
the best adverts for not becoming a Christian (especially if your gay, black or a woman).

I think there is little point in really continuing to post here, too many people wanting to make cheap shots, rather than getting into what passes for rational debate.

18 March 2012 at 00:04  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Alpha
Maybe it's you inability to comprehend 21st century English but you have misrepresented my views.

If I was a serial adulterer God would love me and, if I loved Him and my wife, I would change my behaviour. I couldn't say: but it's not in my nature to stay with one woman for 33 years, it's a victimless sin and I need to sleep to with another woman from time to time to keep my marriage intact.

Similarly, if I was a paedophile, God would love me but again it would be no good my saying that God has given me this nature and the children I have sex with are not harmed and enjoy it.

The point is that God has established a moral order in His creation and departure from this constitutes sin. Justifying sin and persisting in it, harms the individual and harms society. God hasn't just made these 'rules' up to show He is in charge - although this would be sufficient. They are there for a purpose - our own good.

One God and He is to be understood, loved and served by knowing His will and following it through a relationship with Christ. Basic Christianity that used to be taught in Sunday Schools up and down the country.

18 March 2012 at 00:05  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

@Dodo,

This is the cut and thrust of the rhetorical debate! But thank you for this post; adding more depth to this -as I discover- matter of the gay question.

Although with Anna Anglican now gone, it looks like this blog will be a bit quiet for a bit .And we only have Danjo as the blog gay.

18 March 2012 at 00:09  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Anna Anglican

I think there is little point in really continuing to post here, too many people wanting to make cheap shots, rather than getting into what passes for rational debate.

Cheap shots. You know, as opposed to rational argument like 'closed-minded bible bashers' who are incapable of 'forward thinking.'

Anna Anglican

How do you know I am not open minded?

How do I know you are breathing? Or should I just point to the aforementioned arguments?

Where is the bit about gay bashing in that?

You mean besides that part about "teaching them to obey all that I commanded you." Of course, this answer assumes that 'gay bashing' is defined as 'saying that homosexual behavior is immoral.' It would be nice however if you could explain the connection between the Great Commission and what you called 'forward thinking' - as opposed to 'close-minded bible-bashing.'

carl

18 March 2012 at 00:25  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Anna Anglican said ...
"I think there is little point in really continuing to post here, too many people wanting to make cheap shots, rather than getting into what passes for rational debate."

And that appears to be the dilemma confronting the new Archbishop of Canterbury!

The liberal-modernists want to throw their dummies out of the pram when confronted with the unchanging truth of the Gospel.

The Church includes sinners - we are all sinners - but must not collude with sin.

18 March 2012 at 00:26  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Anna. For a woman with a PhD, you are remarkably hostile to criticism. Are they handing these awards out too liberally ? Rather than announce you are going home and taking the ball with you, you need to substantiate your position....

18 March 2012 at 00:28  
Blogger Oswin said...

Anna Anglican : stay, and fight your corner lass! Don't allow them the pleasure of ousting you. Besides, it's usually Dodo who flounces off. ;o)

18 March 2012 at 00:34  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Paul said ...
" ... personally, I can't see why everyone is rounding on Anna Anglican- doesn't seem like what Jesus Christ would do to me."

No, He wouldn't agree to people self rightously stoning, assaulting or condemning her. However, having reminded us we are all sinners and deserving of death, He might well say:

"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

This is a blog where we challenge one another's views, confront and to question. The issue is whether active, homosexuality and "marriage" is consistent with the message of the Gospel.

18 March 2012 at 00:40  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Anna Anglican

aside from much gloating about the Anglican Church

btw, about this. I was not gloating. I was offering dispassionate analysis. RW was objectively speaking a disaster, and no church the size of the CoE can long survive the descent into liberalism. There simply aren't enough people who want to support a religion founded on doubt.

carl

18 March 2012 at 00:41  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

Anna Anglican should stand up for her beliefs;the person who wins an argument should not be those who shout the loudest.

Also, as I have no problem with giving cheap shots, it is interesting that the Protestant and Catholic divide is being united, Carl Jacobs, Inspector and Dodo, are all as one in the common cause of gloating about the Anglican Church and how terrible it is- do I sense a consortium of bidders, who will asset strip and take on the bits that they want?

Poor old his grace.

18 March 2012 at 00:42  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Oswin
Sir, I never 'flounce'. It's the old man on here with a yearning for petticoats that does that.

Where do you keep that wooden spoon?

18 March 2012 at 00:43  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Ps
Oswin: if you agree with Anna then help her make her case rather than standingon thesidelines cheering and jeering.

On what basis would you support liberal-modernist ideas in Anglicanism and how would you reconcile these with more traditional,bible based beliefs?

Is homosexuality equivalent in God's eyes to heterosexual marriage?

18 March 2012 at 00:49  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Alpha Phone Home

the Protestant and Catholic divide is being united

Eh? Normally I would ask if you inhabited this planet (since your assertion would tend to indicate otherwise) but that would feed your peculiar delusion. I am an American observer, ET. I have no interest in the 'bits' of the Anglican Church. In fact, I have said consistently since Feb 2007 that the only solution to the problems in the CoE is for conservatives to leave it.

I don't suppose you have any idea why Feb 2007 would be a significant date, do you? No, I didn't think so.

carl

18 March 2012 at 00:54  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Alpha
Most of the assets were stolen from the Catholic Church by Henry XIII, his successors and their stooges. Admittedly, it would be good to get the beautiful small Churches, grand Cathedrals and Abbeys 'back home' to the Mother Church. However, of more import, is the salvation of souls.

18 March 2012 at 01:02  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Anna,
I wrote; The Devil also believes in him. Will he be saved? Did you not read this correctly? I never suggested that you were the Devil, but the way you miss quote Scripture, you are doing his bidding, obviously without realising it.
You also said; I'm simply quoting God's Gospel to you. I rather think that you quote the bits that suite you, and no, I don't know it all as 'we all look through a glass darkly'.
So I hope that you re think your opinion of me as I do not set out to find fault but merely help you to understand the whole truth that sets us free.

PS I know you are not the devil because he knows the bible better than all of us and loves to feed misquotes to us to distract us from the truth. He is the liar of all liars.

18 March 2012 at 01:09  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

Carl Jacobs

I have no interest in your bits either. I was merely speculating that the inevitable fraction of the Anglican Church will lead to it keeping its liberal wing with the Catholics off to Rome and the Evangelicals off to their various sects.

I have already said where I am. I am on the planet baile atha cliath on what you humans call a piss up.

You talk of my delusions. Yet here you are posting on a blog written by a 500 year old dead archbship, talk to a long dead birds, mix with lords and gays -quite a shock for you. Perhaps this is all a delusion? I suggest that you take a crash course in English humour and this will help you interact on this blog (I have already done so).

Please do tell me what is so special about Feb 2007? Please also tell me what is so special about Feb 2107?

18 March 2012 at 01:21  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

@Dodo, it'll keep the lawyers in good day till kingdom come!

18 March 2012 at 01:22  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Dodo,
You are right, the destruction of the Monastries by Henry XIII was a sad loss to the church overall. Without disparaging the RCC, it would have near impossible for the Church of England to grow if he had not done so. However, which of us owns anything in reallity. We are just loaned things for our lifetime. Who amongst can take as much as a stone with him on the final day?

18 March 2012 at 01:24  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

PS-Carl Jacobs. I thought you were telling everyone to ignore me? Not very nice is it, although after my enforced stay at area 51, I know the hospitality of your tribe!

18 March 2012 at 01:25  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Alpha
How double dare you!

I am not a dead bird. Prove to my satisfaction that my species no longer exists. Surely you above all others know we are simply hidden at this time awaiting the time of our resurgence. The 'Day of the Dodo' has long been prophesied and when it comes we Dodo Dudes will come into their own.

18 March 2012 at 01:29  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Alpha Beta Tracker

I have been ignoring you. Studiously. But you spoke incorrectly about me and I desired to correct the error.

carl

18 March 2012 at 02:21  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Oh, and Alpha Particle?

The only thing I find shocking on this board is the occasional effluent of racism that periodically spews forth. As for gays. Lords. Bishops. Liberals. The occasional dead bird who lives under the illusion that he isn't really extinct. Even people who wear tinfoil hats and fancy themselves space aliens. They don't shock me at all.

carl

18 March 2012 at 02:32  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Editor's Note: Feb 2007 was when Rowan Williams cut the testicles off of the Primates Meeting and proved conclusively that he had no intention of ever allowing TEC to be held to account. It was a seminal moment in the long-running crisis when RW finally revealed his hand to everyone willing to see. At that moment, I realized that the bureaucracy of the both the CoE and the AC were in TECs pocket. It meant the crisis could never be solved within Communion structures. The only solution involved removing those exact structures, and creating new ones. Which could all be precipitated by the creation of a Free Anglican Church in the UK.

Such a free church would siphon off the more conservative elements from the CoE leading to a more liberal church. As liberalism increased, resistance to the liberal agenda would decrease, and thus more conservatives would be driven out. Eventually, an irresistible dynamic would be created to accelerate the slide of the CoE into full-throated TECification. This occurrence would overcome the traditional reluctance of other national churches to separate from Canterbury, and lead to a formal collapse of the AC. Once the old communion collapsed, a new communion could be formed on the basis of a shared Gospel. The old liberal churches would stumble on for a while, and then die for lack of interest.

It's a fool-proof plan. It ends with the entire ediface of the CoE crashing around its heretical bishops.

carl


carl

18 March 2012 at 03:12  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Rowan Williams was the best Christian the church could put forward. He was fully educated in the theology of splitting words into meaninglessness.

As children are already born with good sense it is remarkable how many billions are spent in driving them out of it.

The battle is not then to make converts into this or that Christian dojo but heal a whole nation of unsane people, each fighting for their equal rights for their unequal wrongs.

That person, an unscathed adult, will bring all to them who still see the light with their heart, to hold a beattitude that will have the hounds of hell baying at their feet.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+6%3A20-26&version=NIV

18 March 2012 at 04:36  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

I wento out with the the devil for almost a year.He is male -the most gorgeous, seductive, deadly, dangerous creature on this planet.

I cannot believe God could be so mean to create him and let him loose on the female population. So when you speak loosely of the devil,just remember he is alive and well and probably living next door - to you!

18 March 2012 at 06:30  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

"Superstition of the Papists"

Well, one could say that is is ALL superstition.

You are just arguing where to draw the line Cranmer.

And judging by your falling church attendance, the widespread use of the Roman Missal in Anglican churches the defections directly to Rome or via the Ordinariate and the fast approaching disestablishment - it's an argument you are obviously losing.

18 March 2012 at 06:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Cressida: "I wento out with the the devil for almost a year. He is male -the most gorgeous, seductive, deadly, dangerous creature on this planet."

Just for the record, she's not talking about me there.

18 March 2012 at 07:21  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Anna: "I think there is little point in really continuing to post here, too many people wanting to make cheap shots, rather than getting into what passes for rational debate."

Those two are just trying to bully you, it's basically what they do here. They've long since ditched the 'spiritual' side of religion, if they had it at all, in favour of a group identity and a sense of belonging. They could just as well be a member of a football supporters club. One of them even used to use a plethora of fake IDs to create a virtual gang to bolster support for himself. Most bullies have very low self-esteem and they are certainly no exception when you get to know them better. Worth remembering, that, when they're being their most homophobic.

18 March 2012 at 07:31  
Blogger len said...

The Anglican Church under Rowan Williams was a polite genteel Gentlemanly Church which bent and swayed with every wind of change and was influenced too much by the changing morality of Society.It was and is a 'useful tool' of the State.
It was/is an ageing toothless lion.Where it goes from here is anybody`s guess.The Anglican Church is led by too many 'intellectuals' and not Spirit filled believers'.

The Catholic Church is a different 'kettle of fish' altogether it has a hierarchical system and a bloody past and a system as ruthless as Islam with dealing with those who wish to leave the catholic system.

You can join but never leave!.

It fall short of execution physically(nowadays) but curses those who leave 'the system'.The Catholic Church claims to be 'the Church' that Jesus founded but no true follower of Jesus Christ is taken in by this deliberate manipulation of the Truth.If you leave the Catholic religious system you are cast into hell
(Nice way to keep 'converts' in a state of subjugation)


But this is not all 'doom and gloom' because there is a rapidly growing 'church' which meets and worships outside the official religious system'.

The UK may be becoming a 'spiritual dead zone'but Christianity is spreading Worldwide not through the 'Church system' but through the 'living stones' of the True Church of Jesus Christ.

18 March 2012 at 07:49  
Blogger Youthpasta said...

Since Anna seems to have gone I won't bore the rest of you with how her refusal to accept what the Bible says, not to mention her dislike for applying it, suggests that she hates it.

However I would like to take you, Carl, up on your suggestion that the CofE has no appetite for returning to Biblical truth. Working as I do in the CofE and knowing quite a few in various positions of responsibility and authority I can tell you that whilst some are of that persuasion there are still a good number who are up for the fight for God's Word. Admittedly it will be a struggle for any evangelical to pull the Church together (oh for the ease of centralised popery!) but that does not make it insurmountable.

That said, I have been wondering if the best thing for the CofE might be the appointment of an incredibly divisive liberal. The potential for causing the entire evangelical and high wings to form a new CofE, what with women bishops already being an issue and gay bishops potentially following, which could finally stop it's fighting for Biblical supremacy over liberal innovations (because the liberals would not be in this new churc) and turn to being fully missional in purpose.

18 March 2012 at 08:33  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

Is this carl jacobs in a swishing of the peticoat?

But in any case, does racism really shock Carl Jacobs? He is American- he should feel quite comfortable with it. I though our puritan friend from middle american was shocked about the motion of blow jobs and sex generally.

18 March 2012 at 08:37  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

Oh len, you are a one.

You obviously know nothing of Catholicism - you must spend your days high or on Playstation to have such a twisted view of the world.

This country, and its people, was happily Catholic until the CofE sprang out of Henry's codpiece and an entire nation was forcibly converted, on pain of death, confiscation and a form of jizja paid by Recusants to the state until the 19c. http://bit.ly/wQwMOW

18 March 2012 at 08:38  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

@youthpasta

Following on the logic of your musings shall we nominate Gene Robinson for the next ABC? Jack Spong could be flown in as the ABY whilst we're at it.

18 March 2012 at 09:33  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

@Carl,

Your 'solution' to the C of E isn't that neat. Here is a 'back of a fag packet' list of reasons ;

1. The C of E has never decided if it catholic or protestant and is split between these two fractions; with a small group of liberals wedged into the middle.

2. The C of E is Episopalian and Synodical- will it really ditch Bishops and this form of Church after 500 years?

3.The legal ownership of the land would be a difficult one- who owns what is also complicated by the C of E being an established Church- ergo the status of the Monarch as the Supreme Governor and the Parliamentary time it would take to resolve these issues would be great. Many people would ask why Parliament is wasting its time on such an issue given the state of the public purse etc.

4.From number 3, the Roman Catholic Church could also lauch legal proceedings to recoup what it considers to be 'stolen' property (Although they might not want to start taking responsibility for grade I and II listed buildngs).

5. Who is going to pay for all those clergy pensions?

Can anyone else add anything?

Youthpasta - I am not sure that the Anglo-Catholics would want to form a new CofE- their agenda has always been to reunite with Rome as a reformed catholic church. They are more likely to cross the Tiber- there are tensions between anglo-catholic theology and anglo-evangelical theology, which is being papered over by the gay issue and the women vicars debate.

I personally think that it is such a logistical, legal, practical (perhaps spiritual) minefield that everyone who is a stakeholder (to quote modern parlance)in the Church of England is going to do their best to keep it together for as long as possible.

In respect of the wider Anglican Communion- this is already a busted flush, is already splitting, it is a left over from the British Empire; liberal americans ordaining gay bishops and african bishops praying for them to be 'cured' of their homosexuality; some parts have women bishops, others are toally against it. What kind of communion does that make? The answer is none at all.

18 March 2012 at 09:45  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

@Paul: Wouldn't dispute the various points you issue - but then again, I'm not a fan of dividing and schisming. John Stott once did the job of reminding the evangelical wing agitating for separation that separation was in no way Biblical. We have to strive towards the Unity that has its reality not in the parliaments of the church, or the congregations of cardinals, but in the Body of Christ.

In that sense, I take issue too with the view that one must be political in order to ensure unity (raised by some of the articles on ++Canterbury this week) - nonsense, we must be fixed on Christ, who is the sole path to Salvation, but whose love is great enough to encompass such a rag-tag band of sinners and still have ample room for more.

But in the end, there is some truth to what you say that the CofE is now bound with greater ties of property than of shared vision, theology, or even, I'm sorry to say, faith. As to the property, do you not know that God will provide all that you need? I don't know about the path for evangelicals, or conservatives, or anglo-catholics, but the path for Christians is the same as it has always been: have faith, keep to the Good News that has been revealed to you, and love and serve the Lord with all your heart.

18 March 2012 at 10:04  
Blogger len said...

Nowhere man (or is this another another of 'the ducks' non de plumes?.

You obviously know nothing about Catholicism!.

Just a short history of the Popes will give you a glimpse of the corrupt nature of the Catholic system.Did you know that the Popes murdered each other ( and countless Christians Jews and Muslims )
One Pope dug up the body of another Pope and put the corpse on trial for heresy(so much for infallibility) cut of his ring finger and threw the corpse to the crowd?.Popes sold the Papacy to commoners( so much for the unbroken lines of succession)There are far worse things which I haven`t the space to describe!.

So all in all the Papacy is a hot bed of corruption(and I hav`ent even scratched the surface yet)

So go away learn the truth about the Catholic Church... then we will talk .

18 March 2012 at 10:37  
Blogger len said...

The C of E certainly needs a reformation, because without a reformation this Church will die!.

These bones can live!


Why a reformation?. the C of E needs to halt the decline that started when it ceased to be 'salt and light 'to a dying World.God warns us that a Church that ceases to be 'salt and light will get trampled underfoot.
Get radical.Speak God`s Word and God`s truth without compromise,Weed out all the 'dead wood'.
It will not weaken the Church of England to sustain a very hard 'pruning'casting off all the dead wood and the dead social gospel.

With just a small group of believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit Life could be breathed into the dying embers of the C of E fanning it into a blaze of Glory!.

18 March 2012 at 10:51  
Blogger Rachel Michelle Louise Anglican said...

Your Grace,

looks like some of your communicants upset my younger ( by 2 minutes) sister yesterday and has decided to go off in a huff. She asked me to take care of her blog for a while so I said yes.

Hello boys!

18 March 2012 at 11:07  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Youth pasta says that Anglo Catholicism has a lean towards Rome. How is that possible when none of the bishops would be recognised because of the required succession from St Peter to the present day.

The Anglo Catholic Mass would just amount to a stage play as Catholics believe that only Catholic priests have the power to transform a host into the body and blood of Christ.

I dont know anything about Anglo Catholicism except that Oswin is one.This may be an indication that Anglo Catholic boys for some reason are more congenial and socially functional unlike the representative disfunctional Catholic boys.
I think probably the imposed sexual restraints on males by Catholicism
eg the prohibition of masturbation could be a of cause unhealthy unnecessary aggression.

18 March 2012 at 12:09  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

correction(the prohibition of masturbation could be a cause of)

18 March 2012 at 12:12  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Good morning - and best wishes to your sister. I'm sure she'll returned refreshed and ready for the fray before too long.

Are you a PhD scientist too who runs marathons and arm wrestles?

Welcome to 'Cranmer's World'!

Nowhere man
Please don't get 'Beanie the Weasel' going again about Catholicism. It'll run for months and get you, well, nowhere man.

Paul
There's no issue about Church of England property. It belongs to the Catholic Church and should be returned.

18 March 2012 at 12:19  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

cressida
How unkind of you.

18 March 2012 at 12:20  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Cressida de Nova- you'd have to ask the anglo-catholics themselves on those issues, but as far as I can tell the anglo-catholics are the spitting image of roman catholics, the real difference is that their priests marry. but the theology is there.

I think that anglo-catholics like most anglicans see themselves as part of 'the one holy catholic and apostolic church', although that is generous of them as I dont think Rome, as you indicate would return the favour (although the Pope recently tried to get the anglo-catholics to join the roman church, not many of them took up his offer- that might change though).

I'm not that bothered with them to be honest- if being good old romans makes them feel better good for them.

18 March 2012 at 12:22  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Dodo- try and fight that in court old chap. I don't think it is as clear cut- you see it is not just what the church owns now, but what the church used to own and was sold to the nobles and others and now the old rectories which have chancellery liability attached, but owned by the new riches of villages- property ownership over 500 years is very complex. Plus the fact you've got to consider even within the church different bits are owned by different parts -PCC, the Diocese, the CC.

If it were not complex, then the Catholics would have done so by now. Although I think that looking after 10,000 ancient listed buildings in England alone is bankrupting the C of E, so Anglicans might be kind and give that responsbility over to mother church. But what about the other lands that the C of E no longer owns?

Having said that when legislation was passed permiting the return of the RC to England, I wonder if provisions were made for such a tet a tate ? I will have to google it.

(we don't , afterall, need to be like Roman Catholics and have massive churches and cathedrals to worship God- in the OT, they used to use a tent for many years).

18 March 2012 at 12:30  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Paul
We'll accept an out of court cash settlement. And it's okay, we'll let you keep some land here and there to pitch your tents.

18 March 2012 at 12:43  
Blogger len said...

For those Anglicans who have contemplating setting themselves adrift down the Tiber a warning the gates of Hell are large and they will open wide to receive you!.

Anglicans having escaped the clutches of Rome would be foolish to jump out of the frying pan into the fire.So what is the remedy?.

The' 39 articles' clearly set out the differences between the Roman and the Anglican Churches.Let us not forget that many suffered martyrdom setting out these precepts bringing the Christian Church into line with Biblical principles.

The '39 articles'are a firm foundation..


Rome will be calling with 'siren voices'but please remember what happen to the sailors who followed the 'siren voices'.

18 March 2012 at 12:47  
Blogger len said...

Dodo........ rather be in a tent with God then in a Palace with false religion!.

18 March 2012 at 13:15  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

'Beanie the Weasel

So do you accept all the 39 Articles as a "firm foundation" and based on "Biblical principles"?

Are you really sure there are not some you would want to amend or even ditch?

Hypocrite.

18 March 2012 at 13:18  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Dodo you have been very nice to me and generous in giving me information about Catholicism.

Dodo is a sweetie
He is all roar
a flash of gums
with no bite

When it comes
to len and Danjo
things change
He puts his teeth in
and rips them to shreds

Your impressive Genghis Kahn approach of slash and burn against your opponents is rather overwhelming.I am pleased to be spared your cutting penetrative thrusts. That awful Inspector friend of yours is a bad influence on you. I blame him.

Paul
Married priests are a good idea and as I understand it not a theological issue with the Catholic Church. It seems cruel to sentence men to a life alone without the comfort of a wife. I suppose it would be costly with large catholic clerical families to house and school. It is terrible to think this important issue is reduced to economics. I think the Catholic Church should rectify this for the sake of the congregation and the clergy.Surely they can afford it.

18 March 2012 at 14:03  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Good afternoon,
All those who wrote here between 10:00am and 11:30am, why were you not at church?
Sorry Anna went off in a huff but she did call me a nasty little man. Nasty I don't mind because I know I'm not, but 'Little'. That leaves me with a real sense of inadequacy.

18 March 2012 at 14:07  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Paul Twigg

1. The C of E has never decided if it catholic or protestant.

ACNA managed to square this circle. It's a solvable problem.


2. The C of E is Episcopalian and Synodical.

When I said "Free Church" I didn't mean Congregational. I meant 'Not part of the Established CoE.' Perhaps I used the wrong word? I simply meant that conservatives would set up a new Anglican identity in the UK that was orthodox. It would have no formal ties to the state.


3. The legal ownership of the land would be a difficult one.

Well, perhaps. Or the parts of this new entity could simply walk away from the old property and rent some space down the street. The it saves its money until it can find a new place. You don't need a gov't owned church building. Besides, you never know when you might find some of those same buildings on the market.


4. The Roman Catholic Church could also launch legal proceedings to recoup what it considers to be 'stolen' property.

How would a bunch of people leaving the CoE for a new Anglican church call into question the CoE's ownership of the property?


5. Who is going to pay for all those clergy pensions?

I don't know. I think that is a problem for the CoE. It can't very well demand that people stay and give it money because it has obligations it otherwise cannot meet. But isn't it illegal in the UK to fund pensions on a "pay as you go" basis?

Perhaps there is some way to reclaim the CoE for orthodoxy, but I have never seen a viable plan to effect that change. The church leadership already tolerates a fair amount of heterodoxy. Soon you will add women bishops. They tend to be markedly more liberal than their male counterparts, and this reality will only accelerate the slide. Just as in TEC, it won't be long before conservatives are proscribed from holding any leadership position.

Conservatives in the UK need to learn from what happened in the US. If you passively wait, you will be slaughtered like sheep in a pen. Your opponents do not mean you well. They aren't looking to co-exist with you. They seek to expunge you. So you must either develop a credible plan to re-take control of leadership, or you must accept the fact that you will have to leave to maintain a faithful witness.

carl

18 March 2012 at 14:11  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

@Cressida,

I'm pretty sure the Roman Catholic Church is wealthy,at least in property if not in cash. Although given Dodo's thoughts on the matter, I am sure the Vatican (being a sovereign state) will be able to float a few bonds on the money markets to buy back all that property he thinks Anglicans owe the RCC.

It would be a good deal- Catholics get lumbered with money draining ancient churches, lots of upset people who suddenly realise that living in an estates called 'the glebe' wasn't such a good idea, and Anglicans some nice new nifty tents (wasn't st paul a tent maker, when he wasn't writing the NT?). It's all a question of price- shall we say £1trillion?).

Hell, in fact when the C of E falls apart as postulated by Carl Jacobs, the C of E could become an investment fund only rather than a Church- "doing God's work" as Goldman Sachs would say.

It would be the biggest real estate deal of the century. I mean st paul's has got to be prime property, located in central London- got to be worth at least a billion bucks!

18 March 2012 at 14:15  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

Note- my post at 14.15 was tounge in cheek.

18 March 2012 at 14:27  
Blogger Paul Twigg said...

@carl, good points and i can take them onboard. As you say, I hope that the C of E doesn't tread the path of the uber-liberal Anglican Church in America.

18 March 2012 at 14:30  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl. Racism is nothing more than the appreciation of the various races. The races each show distinct qualities. Good and bad. We know that because the UK is heaving with different races. Probably different in Dakota, expect you’re all overwhelmingly white and protestant. Allow the Inspector to educate you in the differences as the need arrises. You needn’t run back to your homestead to get your gun each time it comes up.

18 March 2012 at 14:40  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

Dodo, Thanks for the advice re len the Weasel.

No worries, he doesn't bother me - its fascinating to observe the workings of anti-Catholic paranoia.

I certainly don't bother reading his posts closely as they are simply ridiculous - just pick out the bigoted bits, then poke him with a shitty stick and sit back and enjoy the fireworks..

18 March 2012 at 14:52  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

And all those black children who run by my house each morning on their way to school. What are they? Norwegian Lutherans?

The US had a race problem in 1850 as well. Why, do you know that at the time the US government was allowing German and Irish immigrants to flood the country. German and Irish! Why, how could we maintain a good Anglo-Saxon breeding stock with such happenings?

Sounds pretty silly now, doesn't it?

carl

18 March 2012 at 14:55  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Nowhere man

its fascinating to observe the workings of anti-Catholic paranoia.

Saying that the RCC is wrong about a great many things is not evidence of 'anti-Catholicism.' And the inclusion of 'paranoia' was simply a cheap way to de-legitimize your opponent. Both are transparently obvious ways to avoid giving an answer.

carl

18 March 2012 at 15:04  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

cressida
Thank you and (as someone once said)"... you make me want to be a better man." I'm always milder around women. I think that's why God made female and male different - to compliment one another.

You must learn to see behind the Inspector's remarks. He showed me friendship at a time when it was in short supply and I am a loyal bird.

Paul
If I was in charge of 'negotiations', I'd settle for the small and beautiful Anglo-Saxon Churches that the Church of England seems to be selling off in droves.

If I see another one turned into a DIY centre of Tea Shop, I swear I'll ....

Westminter Abbey, York, Winchester, Chichester and Canterbury Cathedrals, would need some consideration too.

As for St Pauls, well, that is Anglican but we'll take it off your hands if you cannot maintain it without charging exhorbitant entrance fees.

18 March 2012 at 15:07  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

carl said ...

"Saying that the RCC is wrong about a great many things is not evidence of 'anti-Catholicism.' And the inclusion of 'paranoia' was simply a cheap way to de-legitimize your opponent. Both are transparently obvious ways to avoid giving an answer."

True, but have you actually read the fantantastic ramblings of this man? He has more in common with Atlas than serious students of history.

Sorry, but he is anti-Catholic and paranoid about the Church - actually all 'organised religions'.

18 March 2012 at 15:12  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl. The Inspector’s father came to England after being unable to secure work at Harland and Wolff in Belfast. You see, they didn’t need him when they found out he was a Catholic, despite his engineering qualification. The young Inspector would have been living in that Unionist paradise, albeit treated as a second class citizen, as Catholics were. Still, that’s racism in action for you...(...and no more lectures from you then. It exists, it will be discussed...).

18 March 2012 at 15:15  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector
My father had a similar experiences in Belfast where this young bird first hatched.

As a Jew, who converted to Catholicism and married a lass from Eire, he had it from all sides! What made it worse was he served in the British Army during the war for this nation and was a decorated hero.

The thanks he got when he demobbed in the Presbyterian paradise of Belfast? Unemployment, homelessness and hate. In truth, he also encountered it from Anglicans and Catholics too when they discovered his racial and religious roots.

18 March 2012 at 15:28  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

What does anti-Catholic prejudice have to do with racism? Are you calling Catholicism a race rooted in the genetics of its adherents?

I live in the US - the original immigrant nation. You aren't going to get very far telling me about homogenous white American neighborhoods, and how the UK is heaving with different races. We have been dealing with race for our entire history. First the Germans, and Irish were the problem. Then the Italians and the Poles. Then the Hispanics. And over everything hangs the specter of slavery. But little by little they all get integrated.

carl

18 March 2012 at 15:39  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

he is anti-Catholic and paranoid about the Church

I have read all his postings on this thread. Give me an example of an 'anti-Catholic paranoid' remark he has made on it. Perhaps you see something that I don't.

carl

18 March 2012 at 15:43  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. We felt the ‘troubles’ in England too. After the shock of the Birmingham pub bombings, our Catholic school rugby team was playing the local state grammar lads at home. The game was a vicious affair which continued after the final whistle. An all out fight occurred in the changing rooms when we were called the IRA. The teams were pulled off each other, and ours had to line up on the field for a full 60 minutes while the grammar lads showered off and went home. Amazingly, it never made the local press who just published the score.

18 March 2012 at 15:47  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo @ 00:49 :

Supporting 'fair play' and gentlemanly behaviour, is all. Besides, it's nice to hear a new voice, a new opinion. It can get a tad stale around here; the same old, same old etc.

By the by, was your ''Ps'' a bit of a flounce?


Cressida @ 12:09 : thank you for the compliment; although, in the deconstruction of your reasoning, re' ''masturbation'', you go on to appear to imply some dubious, but hopefully unintended, supports to the said compliment. I'd like to reassure you that Dodo is indeed, the bigger 'wanker', by far; ''restraints'' notwithstanding. I think it may be more a case of 'activity-attached guilt' perhaps?

18 March 2012 at 15:52  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl. Religion can be a linked factor to race. Take Northern Ireland: Catholic-Nationalist-Indigenous Irish / Protestant-Unionist-Scottish descent.

Not accepting ‘race’ are you, or at least not comfortable with. Why the no go area ? And by they way, time is a healer, until you get to the likes of Len et al who bring up the events of 500 years ago. You have the same with blacks and slavery. It was the price they paid to escape the stone age that was, and in places still is, Africa.

18 March 2012 at 16:00  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

carl
I really have better things to do with my time!

His theory about 'Magnus the Magician'? His claim that Rome is uniting with Islam? His theory the EU is a Catholic ploy? His claims the anti-Christ will come from within Rome? Need I go on?

18 March 2012 at 16:05  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

At least when you shake the hand of a Catholic - male or female - you can be reasonably confident it will be clean.

And, well spotted, it was indeed suggested by cressida's post, intended or not, that you are more mild mannered because you have an 'outlet' for your frustration.

As for my Ps, it's strange but I cannot recall you ever having voiced a clear opinion on any significant matter. Is that how High Anglicans survive these days?

18 March 2012 at 16:12  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

He made none of the claims you mentioned on this thread. Understand that I am not familiar with your discussions with len. I am however familiar with being called 'anti-Catholic' for saying that the RCC is wrong. It is a common occurrence. Before I could give such an accusation credence, I would need evidence of your accusation - evidence that to my mind does not exist on this thread.

But no matter. You haven't the time.

carl

18 March 2012 at 16:24  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

What exactly is the genetic link between Protestant and Unionist? Between Catholic and Republican? Is there now a 'Protestant' gene and a 'Catholic' gene? And how do you square that idea with this:

And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth. Rev 5:9-10

carl

18 March 2012 at 16:35  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl. You win. Will be using ‘tribalism’ in future. Happy now ? Right, now were we, ah yes, the difference between the tribes...

18 March 2012 at 16:47  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

carl
There's a difference in being 'anti-Catholic', in the sense of opposing Catholic teaching, and being 'anti-Catholic' in the sense of seeing it as an orchastrated conspiracy of evil men seeking earthly power and intent on capturing souls.

I'm surprisied you haven't noticed the repeated posts of len espousing the latter view.

18 March 2012 at 17:15  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo @ 16:10 : I'm surprised you missed that particular shot; perhaps you were concentrating elsewhere?

As for voicing ''clear opinions'' I'd have thought my ambiguity was, by now, clear enough?

I really don't have much time for the 'certainties' of men; ace dangerous things 'certainties', in my opinion. Like many people, I find it easier to recognise what it is that I don't much care for, rather than what I might favour.

The good old C-of-E is, in part at least, founded upon similar principles; High Anglicanism in particular. We may not always know what we want, but we have a damned good idea of what is best avoided.

As for 'Churches' per se, to some extent I'm with Len on that one. However, mine allows me some splendour and ritual; I've never believed in chucking out both baby and bath water.

18 March 2012 at 17:26  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Oswin: "I'd like to reassure you that Dodo is indeed, the bigger 'wanker', by far; ''restraints'' notwithstanding."

That was the first thought that came into my head when I read it too. Lol.

18 March 2012 at 17:26  
Blogger Kinderling said...

Allegence to religion-identity or sexual-identity replaces the religion and sexuality everybody is born with: truth and love for Truth and Love.

Jesus' teachings show how to bring the real you out from bondage, while they drive the collective-imprint deeper onto themselves and onto others to counterfeit the normal.

Is is challenging... because they don't know they don't know. Their upset at not being recognized betrays them.

Until then, they destroy in the name of Equality, to educate children and bully people into their baseless and unprovable beliefs, imprisoning those overheard not to agree.

The gurus, priests and politicians love such prideful persons crying out to be filled. Someone to take care of it so the pain of conscience need never surface. Utopia has arrived.

18 March 2012 at 17:31  
Blogger Oswin said...

Rachel Michelle Louise Anglican @ 11:07 said:

''Hello Boys!''

Oh goodie, fighting talk! A touch of the old Viking spirit coming through there lass. Have at them!

Mind, you'd best prepare for old Dodo sidling up for a spot of obsequious flirting; try not to encourage him, it's an experience too painful for the rest of us to bear. The mating ritual of a defunct duck ought not to be allowed.

18 March 2012 at 17:50  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Oswin on faith...mine allows me some splendour and ritual;

Most acceptable that, a bit of shine in worship. You do realise you’re off Len’s Christmas card list. He’ll think you as bad as us Romans.

“Hello Boys” was once part of a memorable bra advert campaign. Vive le difference !

18 March 2012 at 18:11  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

DanJ0
As observed by cressida, we Catholics shun such practices and leave them to you atheists and non-Catholics. Just wash up afterwards, please. Genital pleasure is so fleeting, afterall.

Back from mummy's? Hope your godchildren are well.

Oswin
Lukewarm? Indecisive? That figures and it riddles your church. You're a fine Anglican - splendour and ritual without substance.

Never mind, there's nothing wrong with you that reincarnation won't cure.

18 March 2012 at 18:13  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

DanJ0
Delete button not working - ignore comment about your mother and, once again, apologies.

18 March 2012 at 18:19  
Blogger Chris Gillibrand said...

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine.

Seems like a good job description. If the Gospel is preached, the nation will be converted and Cameron and his kind would be playing a different tune on same-sex marriage.

18 March 2012 at 19:39  
Blogger Chris Gillibrand said...

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine.

Seems like a good job description. If the Gospel is preached, the nation will be converted and Cameron and his kind would be playing a different tune on same-sex marriage.

18 March 2012 at 19:39  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Delete button not working - ignore comment about your mother and, once again, apologies."

It's not a problem, it was a while ago. Part of life's rich tapestry and all that.

I found opening a new window with a right click on the delete icon revealed a working delete/cancel button.

18 March 2012 at 19:45  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

@Mr Integrity: Church doesn't start until 11:00 over here, which is most strange. Plus, sermons are usually at least an hour long, which often comes as a shock to CofE visitors :D

18 March 2012 at 21:30  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

DanJ0
My mum died years ago and I still miss her - especially on days like this. Life's tapestry appears messy at times.

18 March 2012 at 22:56  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo @ 18:13 : With all of my many, many faults I still reckon I'm probably a better Anglican than YOU are a Roman Catholic. Let's face it, it wouldn't take much; breathing might just about suffice.

As for ''reincarnation'' just what did you do to come back as you are?

18 March 2012 at 22:56  
Blogger len said...

Well any Anglicans want to sign up for a trip down the Tiber?.Only one way tickets issued .The price will be your soul(non returnable)

On your arrival at your destination throw away your Bible (you will not be needing that any more, we got' traditions' instead) and be prepared for some pretty strange 'goings on'but don`t be worried about them Papa`s says the are ok and he is infallible(or says he is anyway)
So jump aboard the' SS Tiber' she sails on the next tide.
On arrival Dodo and the Inspector will be thee to greet you and to 'show you the ropes'and eventually with a lot of hard work (and not a little brainwashing) you could end up just like them!.

18 March 2012 at 23:03  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Oswin
Reincarnation doesn't apply to Catholics - we don't believe in it. I just thought with your 'open' approach to doctrine, you might.

Is there such a thing as a 'better' Anglican? Or, for that matter, a 'better' Catholic? You see, one either is or is not a Catholic. I suppose, given that one cannot actually define 'Anglicanism', the competing opinions will tend to rank themselves as 'better' or 'worse' than others. Bit of a dog's dinner really.

From what you've said about your beliefs, breathing is probably just about all you need to do to call yourself 'Anglican'.

18 March 2012 at 23:08  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

len, you are a wit! How long have you been working on that?

There’s a silly wee weasel named len
Who feeds on the ideas of men
He’ll sniff and he’ll grovel
Like a fool in a brothel
Desperate to find a friend

18 March 2012 at 23:14  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Apologies to Oswin, no intended offense to you from my post(au contraire)

I must construct my commentary with more care...can't have you misinterpreting things of this nature:)

19 March 2012 at 02:52  
Blogger len said...

Dodo you mention Brothel.Good! Did you know that several Popes were frequent visitors to brothels and one was even reputed to have had one IN the Vatican.

'Pope John XII didn't even have a good start. He was said to have been born to a fourteen year old mother, sired by a man who was both his father and grandfather. Never one to shun tradition he continued this Oedipal cycle of dysfunction and also took his mother on as a lover. He was only eighteen when he became pope and only twenty-seven when he left it, by way of death. Rumor has it he was murdered during a jealous rage when the husband of one of his mistresses walked in on them in bed. This would indeed be a fitting end to a pope who was such a womanizer he was have said to have violated virgins and widows alike and had so many women filing in and out of the Vatican that everyone said it had been turned into a brothel. Sex wasn't his only downfall though; he was rumored to have murdered several people and was fond of hacking off his enemies limbs. Far from being a saint I think this pope was trying to reach a new record of depravity.'

(Dodo if you are going to lecture people on morals I would keep well away from Catholicism and Catholic History.)
As I said before I haven`t even scratched the surface yet.

19 March 2012 at 07:39  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

carl jacobs.

I have no need to give an answer because the questions and accusations are ridiculous.

If you subscribe to some paranoid view of Catholicism, as a sort of Da Vinci Code of conspiracy theories, that is your problem, not mine.

If I wanted to engage in such debates I could have them down at the local psychiatric hospital any day.

19 March 2012 at 07:58  
Blogger len said...

Well there is certainly a lot of 'flak' going up today from the 'dead eyed Dodo and the inspector, who is the loader today?.Perhaps they have a new recruit?.

I see the no- where man is offering assistance to the unwholesome pair as they keep firing too low (possibly eyesight not too good wonder what caused that?.)
Well Christians keep flying because all the Catholic'flak' going up seem to be doing more harm to the 'gunners ' that their targets!.

Have a nice day!.

19 March 2012 at 08:07  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

cressida
I thought your comment fine as it stood. Do you have an opinion on how freedom from moral restraint in this matter might be affecting my dear friend, wee weasel len?

len the weasel
Have you discovered a new website dishing the dirt on past Popes? Goodness, you do sound as though you're enjoying yourself digging around in this. I hope you're keeping your hands in your pockets!

Some sound advice from Nowhere man that I'd encourage you take up:

"If I wanted to engage in such debates I could have them down at the local psychiatric hospital any day.".

19 March 2012 at 11:47  
Blogger The Judicious Hooker said...

Aren't the English Papists so transparent in their lust for property, power and prestige as they salivate over the self-generated fantasy of the impending fall of the Ecclesia Anglicana? The Church of Rome values survival and supremacy over charity so it's obvious that its adherents would rejoice at the troubles experienced by fellow Christians if Rome may derive some benefit.

The Roman Church is, of course, in fine form, led by a dynamic octogenarian who doesn't know what day it is, with dwindling, ageing or Third World personnel and whose headquarters specialises in money-laundering. It is governed by mostly Italian 'celibates' with little or no lay participation and is so centrally-governed that its head office has lost touch with its grass-roots adherents. This is apparently the "true church". Jesus wept.

The church property, of which reference has been made of late by some of His Grace's communicants, is the spiritual inheritance of the English nation and held in trust by the Church of England on behalf of the English people. It is the accumulation of generations of English, small and great, who faithfully contributed to church funds and supported the building of our great cathedrals and parish churches. There was a flow of funds from England to Rome when Rome held sway, not vice versa.

As a nation, allegiances have changed over the centuries but the national church has remained. The debate over Celtic or Roman customs in 664 brought the English Church under Roman influence for the first time. The break with Rome in 1534 under King Henry VIII reasserted the national church's spiritual independence. In each case was a new church formed or was the old church reconfigured along new lines in what was perceived to be closer obedience to God's will? In each case English Christians still attended the sames churches as their ancestors had done for centuries and offered the same God their sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.

While some religious organisations shroud their activities in a secrecy designed to enhance the sense of the numinous for the credulous, the Anglican Communion washes its dirty linen in public, as they say, and its weaknesses and vulnerabilities are clear for all to see. But at its best its worship is reverent, its faith and order apostolic, its mission and outreach truly catholic and its ministry in Word and Sacrament a powerful demonstration of the pure Gospel of Christ.

Archbishops of Canterbury come and go, as do gay bishops and others who may seek to legitimise things that are 'founded upon no warranty of Scripture'. God is the judge. That which remains is the abiding Word of God and upon that Word all Christians and their 'ecclesial communities' stand or fall.

19 March 2012 at 11:57  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Nowhere Man

I have no need to give an answer because the questions and accusations are ridiculous.

Ummm ... what exactly are you talking about? I haven't addressed a single question to you on this entire thread.

If you subscribe to some paranoid view of Catholicism, as a sort of Da Vinci Code of conspiracy theories, that is your problem, not mine.

Perhaps you could show me where on this thread I demonstrated a 'paranoid view' of RCism? Or any view of RCism for that matter?

If I wanted to engage in such debates I could have them down at the local psychiatric hospital any day.

I have no doubt.

carl

19 March 2012 at 12:13  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

The Hooker said ...
"Aren't the English Papists so transparent in their lust for property, power and prestige as they salivate over the self-generated fantasy of the impending fall of the Ecclesia Anglicana?"

Goodness me, someone desperately needs a sense of humour transplant!

19 March 2012 at 13:49  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo : 23:08 : there's nothing intrinsically wrong with a ''dogs dinner'' it all depends upon the cook, wouldn't you say? As for the rest, your usual blether...


Cressida @ 02:52 : no apology required, and certainly no offense taken. It was amusing, and allowed me to kick a ducks bum in passing. :o)

19 March 2012 at 16:23  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo @ 23:14:

All rather nasty that. You do realise surely, that you cannot hope to demean Len, by making an even bigger turd of yourself?

19 March 2012 at 16:30  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len If you want to discredit today’s Catholics by bringing up a scandalous occupant of the papacy from a thousand years ago, you must be showing signs of desperation, you sectarian clown…

Hooker. What a eulogy for Anglicanism ! And what happens after your church tears itself apart through a lack of discipline and the resulting divisive self interest of it’s clergy ?

19 March 2012 at 18:10  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Oswin
Now that the secret of your supposed mild manners has been revealed, do you use the wooden spoon with your left hand? Or do you wait until your right hand is free. There again, I guess you could be ambidextrous and capable of multi-tasking.

19 March 2012 at 18:28  
Blogger Rachel M Louise Anglican said...

Len does not need to go far in his quest for info on past popes- there is currently a good tv programme called "the borgias", with Jeremy Ions, no less, as a Pope.

But not one for Dodo, No where man (Bromsgrove is an overseas 'bolt hole'?!) and Inspector.

I think it was quite funny that Dodo and Inspector did nothing but have a go at my sister and I think at Dodo said "So please get off the 'I'm hard done by...' soap box'. Then later we get their respective sob stories about catholics being hard done by... pot, kettle, black? ...well boys get off your soap box....and loose the chips on the shoulder.

19 March 2012 at 21:04  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Rachel. What your sister needs is a bit of ‘Man Therapy’. And yes, agreed, we don’t all look like movie stars, but we’re all you got, and the alternative is rather depressing...

19 March 2012 at 21:17  
Blogger Rachel M Louise Anglican said...

Also, I don't know why the knee jerk reaction of Inspector is to launch into silly sexist comments?

And why Dodo and Bromsgrove Man have to label anyone who so much as questions the RCC to be a vile 'anti-catholic'? Hello, some people might think YOUR views are the wacky ones (for example how bread and wine literally turn into a man's body and blood).

Also I don't see that Carl Jacobs is anti-catholic, isn't it obvious that he is not a catholic and by extension there wouldn't agree with that religion; makes sense really.

And yes Mr Jacobs might be come across as serious, but from what I can see of his blog , he was in the Yanks SAS or something and in charge of the nuclear missles at one stage, so calmness and seriousness is a good quality under those conditions!

19 March 2012 at 21:30  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Rachel. Carl was NOT in the US equivalent of the SAS. He was a desk bound turn key. And the key he had under his responsibility, if turned, could have helped wipe out humanity.

Back to your sister and other young things who are walking the lesbian way. Have they given much thought about themselves after the age of 40 ? That’s when ‘looks deterioration’ sets in in. No more opening doors for a pretty face. And you still have half your life to live ! No family to care about you and no grand children to look forward to. Just a f_____g cat, and some female lump in dungarees snoring....

19 March 2012 at 21:40  
Blogger Rachel M Louise Anglican said...

Inspector,

I guess carl being a 'desk bound turn key' is far more military experience than yourself ?

The rest of what your write can equally apply to yourself, as you say your a batchelor?

PS- I'm not a Lesbian- of the 3 of us Kavanagh girls only one of us is a lesbian and of the 2 Kavanagh boys both are 'straight'.

19 March 2012 at 21:46  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

So Carl Jacobs was a WARRIOR? I should have known- the tactical and strategic traps! I shall know better next time, star fleet officer!

19 March 2012 at 21:53  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Rachel
Being a wee bit feisty aren't we?

I have a lot of time and respect for carl's comments which if you took the time to investigate before shooting your mouth off, you would learn. Again,if you read his previous posts you'll see he's as scathing about homosexuality as Catholics and for very similar reasons.

And I have no problem with people disgreeing with Catholic doctrine. It's innane comments like that one about the Eucharist that are immature and just plain ignorant. You do know the Church of England teaches consubstatiation? Do you know what that means? Do you accept it?

I reserve the 'anti-Catholic' and 'paranoid' label for those lunnies who believe Rome is plotting world domination with the Muslims via the EU in readiness for Satan's return. Yes, they do exist and we have a couple on this blog.

The 'hard done by' comment made to your sister was about her attempt to pervert scripture and turn Jesus into a sandle wearing, peace and love hippy to suit and justify her lifestyle choices. The 'discrimination' she allegedly faces in the Church is based on the Gospel and not on homophobia and bigotry as she claims.

Are all 5 of you Kavenagh sprogs so hot headed or is there one of you a bit more considered?

19 March 2012 at 22:13  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Rachel. Here’s something to think about. Take the time from the first shock of your puberty to where you are now. The Inspector has that time line experience plus the very same again. He’s sooo much older than you. You should be thankful for his consideration. Not something you learn at Uni, the words of fools and all that. And he’s now dating a senior hospital sister, no less....

Kavanagh is a good Irish name one believes. You should be a Roman girl, you know it makes sense...

19 March 2012 at 22:18  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector
You kept the senior nurse quiet, you dog! I thought you were tight lipped about that visit some weeks ago.

19 March 2012 at 22:23  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Rachel said ...

" ... of the 3 of us Kavanagh girls only one of us is a lesbian and of the 2 Kavanagh boys both are 'straight'."

But are you all gay?

19 March 2012 at 22:27  
Blogger Rachel M Louise Anglican said...

Dodo,

As we can safely ignore the inspector, whilst he chases matron around the ward (poor woman) and given that Carl Jacobs has gone trapist, I shall outline why I'm not a Roman Catholic :

•I don't believe the Pope can speak infallibly

•The apocrypha isn't Scripture

•Purgatory is not a Scriptural concept - it's taught nowhere in Scripture, and in fact it's precluded by Scripture

•The transubstantiation is a very weird doctrine, for a whole bunch of reasons. It turns Christians into cannibals, it seems to obviously misunderstand Christ's symbolism, and it's just plain against the laws of nature.

•Mary wasn't a virgin her whole life, neither was she born through an immaculate conception.

•We're saved by faith, not by works. Roman Catholicism is a works based religion. To be fair, it's only "partially" a works based religion - they do believe faith matters of course, but Scripture says we're saved by faith, and not by works. Once you make any works the basis of your salvation, you're screwed.

•No one is to be called "father" but our father in Heaven.

•It's against the teaching of Scripture for priests to have to be celibate. In fact, you can make a strong case that priests should be married, according to Scripture.

•I believe the Roman Catholic Church commits idolatry through prayer to Mary and the saints. Mary is a human, she's dead, she doesn't intercede at all for us, etc.

•The Church's view of what a "saint" is is warped. The Bible considers any believer a saint. The Roman Catholic Church turns it into some kind of title to be earned.

•We are not obligated to confess our sins to a priest, only to God.

•A priest, furthermore, has no power to forgive, only God can.

•The Church confuses sanctification and justification.

Need I go on?

19 March 2012 at 22:35  
Blogger Rachel M Louise Anglican said...

Ah now Dodo,

"are we all gay?"

Stick to this issues, stick to the issues.

19 March 2012 at 22:36  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. Didn’t get confirmation until this morning. Those who are interested in railway infrastructure would appreciate this, it was a “calling on” signal, ie proceed and occupy track ahead.

19 March 2012 at 22:37  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Rachel

But you haven't raised any, just some bleating on about how hard done by your sister was and looking for a fight.

Have you actually read the thread in question? If so, you'll see her peculiar opinions on the Bible, Jesus and His message were challenged by people across the Christian spectrum.

And gay simply means happy!

19 March 2012 at 22:46  
Blogger Rachel M Louise Anglican said...

Ah, but Dodo- I'm not here to defend my sister's views on the Bible- if and when she wants to do so, I am sure that she will (and thrash your little ass whilst your at it).

Bleating? This is the bird who bleats about how 'anti-catholic' everyone is when they disagree with him. You are already -what was the phrase Oswin said "flouncing"-already.

19 March 2012 at 22:53  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Rachel
No, you needn't go on! I've heard all these objections before. Google any decent Catholc website for answers to them all.

The current issue is on the thread is homosexuality. Well,actually it Rowan Williams and how his timeas Archbishop has been beset with alack of unity within Anglicanism.

Do you believe giving expression to a homosexual sexual tendency is sinful?
Do you believe Jesus would Bless homosexual marriage?
Do you believe there is a clearly articulated Biblical message on the proper relationship between male and female?

Answers?

19 March 2012 at 22:54  
Blogger Rachel M Louise Anglican said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

19 March 2012 at 23:05  
Blogger Rachel M Louise Anglican said...

Dodo, this no inquisition, or perhaps you are re-living a different life on this blog?

"Google any decent catholic website"

You cannot defend your own position or your Church then, but instead reply on other people's hard work? That is lazy of you- it is as if you have no thought or brain of you own?

To your question :

Define what you mean by homosexual expression? Sex? Kissing? Relationship? Being? What?

Second : No. Why would he? Do you?

Third : I am sure that you can pluck something from the Bible to justify that stance, if you refer to the old stero type of married man and woman, woman in the kitchen and looking after children and man as main breadwinner (the 1950s paradise you boys want to live in). However also look at the woman who lead /and/or were of vital importance in God's work and didn't just sit at home making the tea, in the Bible.

19 March 2012 at 23:06  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

I've looked up "jesuit" and this is what the first article said:

"Here are some Jesuit/Vatican atrocities to mull over.

The Crusades: Who knows how many died? And then the children’s crusades ... Good God.

The Inquisitions: In “Vatican Assassins,” Eric Jon Phelps cites a source that estimates roughly 60 million people were murdered in the various stages of the Inquisitions. Think about that number for a minute. Most of these people were tortured to death.

Catherine De Medici instigated the butchering of 75,000 French Protestant Huguenots on August 24, 1572. In 1598 Henry IV issued the Edict of Nates to protect them. By manipulating the rescinding of the protective Edict of Nantes in 1685 by the Jesuit confessor to King Louis XIV (using religious blackmail), another HALF MILLION FRENCH HUGUENOTS were butchered by the vile French Catholic Dragonades. In 1655 again, British Protestant hero Oliver Cromwell threatened to invade France and crush the French Crown for a new massacre being waged upon the French Vadois Protestants of valley of Piedmont by six Catholic Regiments by the Duke of Savoy.

The massacre of the poor Irish protestants on October 23rd 1641 - the "Feast" of Ignatius Loyola. How fitting a day for a massacre by these bloodthirsty swine. It is estimated that 150,000 Irish Protestants were butchered in the streets and in their homes. This slaughter took place over an eight-year period. Finally, once again it was Oliver Cromwell who finally invaded Ireland and attacked the Jesuit base at Drogheda and in a rage exterminated the entire Catholic village of 2000. Only this invasion finally ended the massacre of the Protestants. The present day Irish Protestants are still at war with the fanatical Irish Catholic Jesuits, and this is why they need the continued protection of the British Army."

Is there validity to these claims?

19 March 2012 at 23:23  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Rachel
You're a strange one!

You seriously expect me togo through all your objections to Catholicism, one by one? With what chance of a serious dialogue? Please!

Maybe if you're around long enough and they're relevant to a thread we can discuss them.

So to the points in question:

Define what you mean by homosexual expression? Sex? Kissing? Relationship? Being? What?

Don't feign naivety. Homosexual expression between two people would be behaviours directed at sexual satisfaction - eros - as opposed to human, non-sexual love - agape. A physical expression of sexual passion that would include intimate kissing, genital contact, arousal and mutual masterbation. Celebacy would mean refraining from such practices.

Do you believe Jesus would Bless homosexual marriage?
Second : No. Why would he? Do you?

No and we agree completely on this. Jesus would, according to my understanding of His message would love the homosexual but, if they were actively expressing their tendency, would tell them to sin no more.

Third : I am sure that you can pluck something from the Bible to justify that stance, if you refer to the old stero type of married man and woman, woman in the kitchen and looking after children and man as main breadwinner (the 1950s paradise you boys want to live in). However also look at the woman who lead /and/or were of vital importance in God's work and didn't just sit at home making the tea, in the Bible.

What a silly little girl you are! Have youbeen on some radical feminist, sociological course?

I was referring to the Divine ordinance of marriage being a life long union between a man and woman where sex is intended to be an expression of unitive love and also the transmission of life.

I also agree with your views about women in the Bible. However, I do believe the genders complement one another in God's Church and that there is a sound basis in Scripture for precluding them from the priesthood and do not see this as discrimination. 'Equal but different' as the Catholic Church says.

In areas of civil and secular life, I believe it is a matter of personal choice. It does seem regretable that today the role of motherhood is down played and the economic situation is such that both parents feel compelled to work. Personally, I see nothing wrong with women chosing to remain at home and devoting their lives to their children, their husbands and to keeping the family home.

19 March 2012 at 23:30  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Rachel M Louise Anglican

Re: "Why I am not a Catholic"

Well done, ma'am! It's not often I read a comment and want to stand and applaud. Your summary was sterling. There was hardly a word with which I could disagree. My only comment would be to say "We are saved by faith alone."

carl

19 March 2012 at 23:34  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

A Launch Control Center doesn't have a desk. But otherwise you are correct. My job was not the equivalent of the SAS. I would never claim that it was.

Oh, and "You're welcome."

carl

19 March 2012 at 23:38  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

carl

Looked like a 'cut and paste' job to me. All pretty basic protestant objections to Catholicism.

We know what protestants object to; the issue really is finding what it is you can agree on.

19 March 2012 at 23:47  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Ps

And, as we all know, Luther added the word "alone" to Scripture because he believed it should be in there.

"We are saved by faith ... (alone)."

19 March 2012 at 23:51  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Dodo

Luther added the word "alone" to Scripture

Of course he did. Because as all good RCs know, we must add works to faith so that every man can boast.

carl

19 March 2012 at 23:54  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

BTW Dodo ...

Looked like a 'cut and paste' job to me.

I fully expect to cross swords with Rachel M Louise Anglican at some point, but I must say she hasn't impressed me as someone who needs to 'cut and paste' an answer. Underestimate her at your own peril.

carl

20 March 2012 at 00:04  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

Rachel,please, no more talk of thrashing the Inspector's arse. Tittilating him in this way will only make his attacks on women worse.

Dodo if you are truly a Christian you will warn that senior nurse who the Inspector is lusting after of imminent danger.Advise her to take leave.

Also to be fair, you should admit that len does have a flair for telling good lurid Pope stories.I thought that last one was great.I am looking forward to 'Lurid Lives of the Saints' by len.

len I also liked your humorous fable
of the Tiber Crossing starring Dodo and Inspector. Untapped talent there, len:)

20 March 2012 at 00:08  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

carl
Now that is an untruth, Sir. Please don't bandy one passage from Ephesians about out of context. And you think it acceptable for Luther to slip in this word to Scripture, do you?

Have you not read "Faith without works is dead"? Have you ever reflected on the 'Judgement of the Nations' in Matthew?

In Catholic theology Grace and Faith will manifest in good works and in themselves good acts are worthy, yet insufficient in themselves.

20 March 2012 at 00:09  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

cressida
You have a wonderful ability to see the good in everybody - apart, it seems, for the poor Inspector. I'm sure a senior nurse is quite capable of taking the measure of the man and looking after herself. Maybe you should counsel him. You never know.

carl
I'm sure you're correct about Rachel, time will tell. The well rehearsed, pat 'thesis against Rome', nailed metaphorically to the blog door, didn't really do it for me. Junior High School stuff.

20 March 2012 at 00:18  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

From the Canons on Justification from the (Infallible) Council of Trent

CANON XXXII.- If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

Yes, Dodo, I have read the Book of James. I know how to answer that tired objection. I have no doubt you already know my answer.

carl

20 March 2012 at 00:29  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

carl
Indeed!

And the above Canon from Trent, as you know, needs to be set in a much wider theological context as well. It comes down to a correct understanding of justification and its relationship with faith and grace. Catholics believe salvation comes throught an ongoing cooperation with faith received through grace and that it can be lost.

What do you you think of:

Canon IX
"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

Paul used the word faith repeatedly in the New Testament, but not once did he couple it with alone or only. Strange! Are we to believe that he intended to teach justification by faith alone, but never did so explicitly? If Paul, who is usually direct and candid in his epistles, wanted to teach unambiguously and unequivocally that man was justified by faith alone, he would have done so. Since Paul's writings were inspired, we must also acknowledge that the Holy Spirit prohibited Paul from using alone in connection with faith.

That's the thing about Catholicism, it is not capable of being reduced to simplistic statements and concepts such as "born again" or "predestination" or all the 'takes' in between these.

God is complex as is His workings, as is understanding His plan of salvation. We don't happen to believe that comprehending Scripture or leading people in Truth, is a democratic process or that all are equally gifted. That's why Christ established leadership in His Church and gave it the power of loosing and binding - the Keys to the Kingdom.

20 March 2012 at 01:12  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

"In Catholic theology Grace and Faith will manifest in good works and in themselves good acts are worthy, yet insufficient in themselves."

Ought to manifest ...

20 March 2012 at 05:03  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "Homosexual expression between two people would be behaviours directed at sexual satisfaction - eros - as opposed to human, non-sexual love - agape."

:O

20 March 2012 at 05:08  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo @ 18:28 :

''Mild manners'' ? Not I! Rather, I'm 'well-mannered', excepting when attacked, or subject to idiocy and/or rudeness beyond bearing. Which is where you come in, Dodo.

20 March 2012 at 16:09  
Blogger The Way of Dodo the Dude said...

Bring it on, Oswin. Actually, it'll be good to see you express an opinion rather than lingering around encouraging others. Do keep your right hand free whilst doing so. We wouldn't want you getting confused.

20 March 2012 at 17:09  
Blogger Oswin said...

Dodo: dirty, dirty boy!

20 March 2012 at 18:20  

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