Friday, April 27, 2012

‘Understanded of the People’ – St Paul’s marks 350 years of Book of Common Prayer

This year marks the 350th anniversary of the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, and to celebrate that glorious milestone, St Paul’s Cathedral, in conjunction with the Church Times, will display a host of prayer books, old and new. Titled ‘Understanded of the People: The People’s Prayer Book 1662-2012’, the exhibition will run at St Paul’s throughout May and coincides with a special service of choral evensong on Wednesday 2nd May at 5pm, attended by the Prayer Book Society, at which the Bishop of London will preach and the Archbishop of Canterbury will give the blessing.

The BCP remains the classic worship book of the Church of England. It has shaped the worship and doctrine of the Church of England and the Global Anglican Communion, and remains the cornerstone of Anglican identity. Although contemporary prayer books have been introduced, many churches and most cathedrals still use the BCP alongside these modern forms. The 1662 version still has a strong hold on people’s affections and even people with little faith still see merit in its venerable language and historical associations.

The exhibition will include prayer books from the First World War, a prayer book carried by a bride at her wedding instead of flowers, the gift of a brother to his sister as he left for active service in World War II, and prayer books special to people like PD James, Terry Waite, Frank Field and many others. Readers of the Church Times were also invited to submit their prayer book stories and some of these readers will have their books on display.

The Reverend Canon Michael Hampel, Precentor of St Paul’s, said: “The language of the Book of Common Prayer runs like a golden thread through the history of the English language. For many of the contributors to this exhibition, it shaped who they are and it’s a privilege for St Paul’s to be able to share personal stories alongside people’s prayer books.” The exhibition will be on display in the North Quire Aisle of St Paul’s Cathedral from Tuesday 1 to Thursday 31 May from 8.30am to 4pm. Please see the website for visitor information.

(It would have been nice if, in their press release, St Paul's had thought to give His Grace just a passing mention).  

61 Comments:

Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Your Grace,
How sad and mean of them to ignore your name sake.

Grew up with the BCP and learnt my Catechism for Confirmation but once I came across extempore prayer, the book had less interest except for formal/legal services such as Weddings. None the less, well worth remembering.

27 April 2012 at 12:38  
Blogger RMBruton said...

Wouldn't it be a novel idea to actually use the 1662 BCP. I will be glad when the year is over and all the phonies can go back to ignoring it and allow those few of us who actually use it routinely to get on with our lives.

27 April 2012 at 12:44  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Never been one for prayer you know. You can pray for it or go out and achieve it. Still, it brings comfort to a lot of people. Good thing too...

27 April 2012 at 13:05  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector

Surely you talk with God? You don't have to be asking for anything, just a chat to say "hello", a friend to pass the time with, to share one's troubles and one joys.

God doesn't need fancy words and splendid prose - although I'm sure he appreciates the time taken to compose beautiful, uplifting prayer. He just wants us to be in communion with Him.

27 April 2012 at 17:21  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dodo. The Inspector has such a close relationship with God that prayers are not necessary. We know what each other thinks, so the speak.

27 April 2012 at 17:27  
Blogger len said...

It is said that God does nothing without prayer

Explains a lot Inspector..You should listen to Dodo!.

27 April 2012 at 20:06  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Inspector;
I appreciate your belief in your close relationship with God but how do you explain that the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray and Jesus himself spent much time in prayer, particularly in the garden of Gethsemane.

27 April 2012 at 20:11  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector
That's how it should be. Unspoken prayers are the purest form of communication.

len
You have a nasty little streak in you. So do I, yet I freely admit it. See, I don't claim to a saint - just a sinner doing his best by the grace of God on a day to day basis.

27 April 2012 at 20:14  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Integrity
It's like a child learning to speak. You start with the simple and progress.

There's private converstion and there's public worship. Both necessary but with different methods.

27 April 2012 at 20:19  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Chaps. It all comes down to what you mean by prayer. For example, people pray for things, like world peace. Well, that’s a waste of time. Or for a sick relative. Nature takes it’s course, no problem. You see, the Inspector has always been self reliant – never needed to ask divine help for anything. Also, wouldn’t like to trouble our creator, there’s enough people in the world who need His help in either practical need or just to come to terms with something.

Now, communication does take place when the Inspector contemplates God’s creation: Solar system or nature for example. Thinks to himself, we’ll done supreme one. First class work there. Or acts of charity by individuals, again thinks grace of God. The Inspector can and does appreciate God at work, and conducts a form of telepathy, one way of course.

27 April 2012 at 20:54  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector

A "give us this day our daily bread" approach; very commendable. It is worth asking for help too. God can cope. The telepathy can work both ways too.

27 April 2012 at 21:24  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Inspector/Dodo;
I have often found the most effective prayers are those, not asking for something, but asking God to guide me as to his purposes for my life and to give me direction. To also ask for the Grace to cope with circumstances as they arise.
I have BTW seen many people healed of physical ailments. 'By his stripes are we healed’.

27 April 2012 at 23:40  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

28 April 2012 at 00:06  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Integrity

I do agree but it is good to know we can ask God for His assistance. To know we have someone to trust, who has our wellbeing constantly in mind.

As an adult and a Christian I've only ever really pleaded with God for two things of substance - both from a sense of utter helplessness and reliance on Him. I thank Him that on both occassions my prayers were answered 'against the odds'. By the way, I asked Our Blessed Mother to interceed with her Son too. I also remember concluding these prayer with: "not my will but thine be done".

28 April 2012 at 00:08  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Chaps. Prayer is a subject rarely covered in this age, and the Inspector is grateful for any insights presented...

28 April 2012 at 00:17  
Blogger len said...

Dodo,(27 April 2012 20:14)

'len
You have a nasty little streak in you. So do I, yet I freely admit it. See, I don't claim to a saint - just a sinner doing his best by the grace of God on a day to day basis.'(end of quote by Dodo)

I have explained this on another thread but think it bears repeating.

You misunderstanding of salvation is not your fault, its what you have been taught.

When one is' born again' one get`s a New Spirit.
'Ezekiel 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you.'

However this New Spirit has to be released through the' veil of the flesh'.There is a process whereby the new nature replaces the 'programme' left by the' old nature' . This is a lifelong process.So there are many up`s and downs.But My Spirit in union with Christ is the guiding force behind the changes taking place .

So in my Spirit I am exactly as He (Christ) is, but my performance is well below that!.

This might (and probably does ) sound arrogant to you but this is described perfectly in the Scriptures.

Galatians 2:20 >
'I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.'

'The World' may condemn me when I fail to live up to the Spirit within but it is reassuring to know that God doesn`t!.

Romans 8:1 >>
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

28 April 2012 at 08:15  
Blogger len said...

Thomas Cranmer is a true hero of the faith.And he should be remembered as such!.

Thomas Cranmer was a man who sought the truth of God`s word and was convinced that the only infallible source was the Scriptures.

Cranmer remarked whilst discussing the Kings divorce
"You should not cling to the decisions of the church. There is a surer and shorter way which alone can give peace to the king`s conscience. ... The true question is this - what says the word of God ? If God has declared the marriage of this nature bad, the pope cannot make it good. Discontinue these interminable Roman negotiations. When God has spoken man must obey. .... consult the universities; they will discern it more surely than Rome."

"The word of God is above the church" , was the principle that Cranmer expounded and it framed the whole of the Reformation in just eight words.

28 April 2012 at 08:40  
Blogger bluedog said...

Mr Inspector @ 00.17, this communicant sees prayer as a multi-dimensional benefit. One can pray for one's self, for others, to give thanks and by way of private confession.

28 April 2012 at 09:04  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len

Except Henry put the word of the King above both the word of God and the Church! And, Cranmer, as a Servant of the Church, failed it. He did so years before when he married in secret and broke his sacred oaths.

And the Reformation was driven essentially by a difference in theological opinion about justification. Admittedly Henry's agenda was different. One was based on the insecurities of men and a misreading of the bible; the other on an authoritiative and Spirit guided interpretation of this by the Church.

Your views on sin and justification are extremely confused and I doubt you understand the real differences between us.

28 April 2012 at 09:49  
Blogger Archbishop Cranmer said...

"Except Henry put the word of the King above both the word of God and the Church"

Dodo,

Stop fabricating the narrative. It was Pope Julius II who placed ecclesio-geo-political policy above the Word of God, which clearly forbids a man to marry his brother's widow (Lev 25:5ff). His Grace merely assisted the King to see that papal 'dispensation' amounted to divine arrogation: the Church was routinely amending the Word of God to suit its temporal whims. The Reformation was concerned with putting the Word of God over both King and Church, which is why Jesus is the Head of the Church of England; the Monarch merely Supreme Governor.

28 April 2012 at 10:16  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. You continue to disappoint. Christianity is about proselytising as much as anything else. Accept the Christ and you are indeed born again in Christ's spirit. A big ask for some converts, to abandon their heathen ways. And along comes you, with your curious interpretation of scripture. You would deny salvation to those who believe who YOU judge not to be fit. The countless billions ! Has the Earth ever seen such arrogance from such a humble creature as yourself...

28 April 2012 at 14:26  
Blogger non mouse said...

The omission glares, Your Grace.
. . . and it’s a privilege for St Paul’s to be able to share personal stories alongside people’s prayer books
So also does the hypocrisy in their failing to deal more sensibly with those of the "Occupy" movement who may have needed Sanctuary. Getting the gestapo to move them was hardly sharing their personal stories.

28 April 2012 at 14:53  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Dr Cranmer

Yeah, if you say so Bish' but you're hardly neutral on all this, now are you? It was all a long time ago and memories fade and get selective.

And we both know Henry was driven by carnal not spiritual concerns. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Henry's original title Head of the Church until Elizabeth changed it?

28 April 2012 at 15:35  
Blogger len said...

Inspector ..your comment proves that you do not understand salvation either!(28 April 2012 14:26)

You Catholics have really had your heads 'messed up' by what you have been taught haven`t you.?

Scripture speaks quite plainly,and those parts which are' seemingly difficult' can be interpreted through other Scriptures. You would need help to misunderstand Scripture.(the Magisterium perhaps?)

Arrogance belongs to 'the religious' who say" I don`t need Christ because I can save myself through my 'good works' .Of course they will never admit to this with this degree of Honesty!.But the root of this attitude is pride.


Dodo if we are talking about 'carnality' look to a History of the Popes, a more canal, corrupt, body of men would be harder to find.They make' Henry' look like a saint.

28 April 2012 at 19:55  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. So you are saying all those who adhere to the Roman Catholic church are doomed. The earthly creation is all about getting a few born agains into heaven; the spiritual bin awaits the rest.

Now see here you charlatan, when the time comes for the Inspector, he hopes for a place to be laid for him at his Lord’s table. And for you born agains, it’s a bowl on the floor. Assuming your type are let in at all...

28 April 2012 at 20:09  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len

Do go away with your weasel lies about Catholicism. The Catholic doctrine on Justification is beyond you because your mind is so full of nonsense.

Point to one authentic statement from Rome that says Christians do not need faith in Christ as the absolute basis for salvation; that His atoning sacrifice is not the basis for God's forgiveness of all men. Point me to one statement that says salvation is obtained without sanctifying grace.

Then explain in your own words how you understand from the Bible, of course, the path of salvation. You twist constantly between an event and a process it's getting very confusing. Before you 'preach' and condemn others you really must get this clear in your own mind.

Who is denying Popes have been great sinners? I'm sure you can dig up examples from 400 years and more ago. The point is the doctrines of the Church have been quarenteed authenticity by Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

28 April 2012 at 20:17  
Blogger len said...

Dodo you don`t seem to understand Catholic teaching on salvation?

The Council of Trent goes so far as to curse the Biblical doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith alone. It declared:
'If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is by trust alone by which we are justified, let him be damned [anathema] (Canon XII.).' These and may similar statements are still official Catholic teaching. The New Catholic Catechism and other contemporary documents still teach that salvation is by a combination of faith and works."

( I suppose you will claim this is 'a forgery'?)

28 April 2012 at 20:49  
Blogger len said...

Inspector.... where you spend eternity is entirely up to you(and the Grace of God)

If you place your entire faith in the Catholic Church you presumably will end up wherever it ends up?.

28 April 2012 at 20:52  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. The Inspector adheres to the RCC ‘in good faith’. You see, he doesn’t have time to study the good book to the nth degree. He’s too busy surviving in this world. Of course, he could spend all his spare time staring at the words, but that would risk going down the road of religious nuttery, and we all know what happens if he gets it wrong...

28 April 2012 at 21:35  
Blogger len said...

Inspector I work full time and have always done so.I also do a fair bit of home maintenance and DIY.

Spiritual truth is vitally important to me and I believe time spent studying the Word of God is never time wasted.

Far from going down the road to religious nuttery'I feel the Wisdom of God has enlightened me in many ways.I am far removed from what the general concept of a 'religious person' is conceived to be!.
Without the guidance of the Holy Spirit I probably have' wound up trapped in some religious system or other.
'Surviving the World' is obviously essential but there is so much more to human existence.

The quest for meaning in Life and gaining knowledge of the Creator of the Universe is surely the highest aim of man?.

28 April 2012 at 21:56  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len

And so you show your ignorance or stupidity once again! 'Faith alone' according to the Catholic Church is a false doctrine. Do you actually know what the Church's teaching is? I don't think so even though Albert attempted to take you through one step at a time.

Tell me, having been "born again" through "faith alone" are you actually transformed? Can you sin and still achieve salvation? Do you have any say in this saving grace or, once given, is it irrestible, life long and can never be lost?

And just where in the Bible does it support "faith alone" and "scripture alone"?

It is on these questions that the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism hinge. Yet you seem oblivious to this. Catholicism is not about "religious" compliance and slavishly doing "good works" to "earn" entry to Heaven.

Given the wound to the Body of Christ inflicted by false teachings, I can well understand the threat of the Church that any one teaching them puts their immortal soul at risk.

Two of Luther's quotes makes one wonder if anyone could do more to do more to corrupt St. Paul's concept of justification:

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ more strongly, who triumphed over sin, death, and the world; as long as we live here, we must sin."

"If adultery could be committed in faith, it would not be a sin"?

28 April 2012 at 22:29  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len said ...

"The quest for meaning in Life and gaining knowledge of the Creator of the Universe is surely the highest aim of man?

Agreed ... Just bear Don Quixote in mind:

"And so, to sum it all up, I perceive everything I say as absolutely true, and deficient in nothing whatever, and paint it all in my mind exactly as I want it to be."

"I am in my right mind, now, clear-headed and free of the murky darkness of ignorance, brought upon me by my continual, bitter reading of those abominable books of chivalry."

28 April 2012 at 22:41  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Len. Your last post remarkably lucid. Inspector was beginning to think he’s misjudged you, but then we have your many many previous posts, don’t we...

28 April 2012 at 23:11  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector
He's just accussed me on another thread of commiting the sin against the Holy Spirit that is unforgivable! This is because I refuse to accept his somewhat peculiar interpretation of scripture.

28 April 2012 at 23:21  
Blogger len said...

Dodo Inspector ,

Your opinion of me is immaterial, I care not whether you love me or hate me.

The really important thing is how you view Christ and Scripture which testifies to Him.

29 April 2012 at 09:00  
Blogger The Judicious Hooker said...

O your Grace, don't take it to heart that the C of E shows no gratitude for your liturgical prowess.

Although I do confess that sometimes I like to think of the Book of Common Prayer as a heavenly gift from above, arriving with the Pentecostal showers as some sort of proto-liturgy! I like to think that a copy of the Koine original was passed to your Grace by Peter Martyr in 1547 and you translated it for our lasting edification. It has such simplicity and true devotion which breathes the joy of the church of the apostles.

That it was very much a result of violent socio-political struggles over several hundred years, is not lost on me in my less whimsical moments. Containing elements from the 'popish dunghill', gems of mediaeval devotion and contributions from the continental reformed churches, all go to support a creative tension in my spirituality which is both healthy and efficacious. That some of its finest features survived the political flux of the reformation period by a hair's breadth, I marvel at.

I consider the pattern of prayer in the BCP of paramount importance. The daily office of Morning and Evening Prayer and regular Holy Communion is formational for Anglicans and we lose this balance of both Office and the Holy Sacrament at our peril. The daily recitation of psalms and the systematic reading of Scripture – in public or private – and the regular participation in the Lord's Supper sustains the faith of believers.

I have taken to collecting second-hand BCP's as each one tells a story and I provide a retirement village for them in our declining years. Was there ever a book which appears in such a portable form? I try to always carry one with me in these dangerous days as a talisman and so it's at hand whenever inspiration is required: a collect, scripture portion, the Litany, a Psalm or even an Article of Religion or two.

Your communicants don't forget your Grace. Your well-crafted liturgy will be on the lips of the Elect - in one form or other - until the last trump! Non nobis, Domine.

29 April 2012 at 10:01  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len

I have no personal opinion of you. I detest your misrepresentation of the Catholic Church and the lies you tell about it.

29 April 2012 at 10:07  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, Because I tell you the you have made yourself my enemy'.

I have no person opinion about you Dodo other than pity because you prefer lies to the truth.
Only the truth will set you free but you refuse to accept it.But not only do you refuse to accept the truth but you push' your religion 'on those who may be unaware of the way Catholicism has persecuted the true Church of Jesus Christ and has superimposed its unholy' doctrines' in an attempt to supplant the true Church.

You will have to answer(one day) for your promotion of a' false gospel' and I do not envy you for having to stand in that position!.

29 April 2012 at 14:08  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len
I'm confident in the Apostolic Church and suggest you reflect on the 'religion' you have dreamed up through scouring the internet. It seems to me the tenets of your 'faith' consists principally of a negative raction to Catholicism - the Church established by Christ Himself.

29 April 2012 at 16:58  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, I have no' religion'.(Surely you know this by now?.Religion (at its best) is ABOUT Christ.

I have a relationship WITH the Risen Lord Jesus Christ.

29 April 2012 at 20:20  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len

Yes, I do know you think so. You're a one man band who keeps banging his drum for attention.

I'm using the term in the sense of a series of shared beliefs, a common doxology and doctrines and shared worship. And, given the authority you appear to have usurped to yourself, it can be safely said you have no religion.

29 April 2012 at 22:16  
Blogger len said...

Dodo do you know what the word 'religion' means?

The word 'religion' comes from the Old English, through French, and originally, from the Latin. It has no Greek meaning. The Latin word has the meaning of "to bind."

And in the case of Catholics 'bound to your' religious system'.

Not exactly God`s plan for your salvation.

30 April 2012 at 08:08  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len

Just what is this 'religious system' you claim Catholics are 'bound to'? Do tell.

The Church is the mystical Body of Christ. I hope I am bound to Christ's Body!

Here's a good Catholic hymn to reflect on:

Bind us together, Lord
Bind us together
With cords that cannot be broken

Bind us together, Lord
Bind us together
Bind us together in Love

There is only one God,
There is only one King
There is only one Body,
That is why we sing.

Fit for the glory of God,
Purchased by His precious Blood
Born with the right to be free
Jesus the victory has won.

We are the family of God
We are the promise divine
We are God's chosen desire
We are the glorious new wine

30 April 2012 at 10:16  
Blogger len said...

Dodo ' religion.'


Your Hymn is good...... a pity that the 'Catholic religion' doesn`t practice the reality of the Words.

As I was saying 'religion'.
Far and away the clearest delineation between "religion" and Christianity is drawn by the Swiss theologian, Karl Barth, who was without a doubt the greatest theologian of the twentieth century. In his voluminous Church Dogmatics, Barth wrote that

"the revelation of God is the abolition of religion."

"It is always the sign of definite misunderstanding when an attempt is made to systematically coordinate revelation and religion...to fix their mutual relationship.

"In opposition to all 'religionism' the proclamation of the grace of God is introduced as the truth..."

"Religion is unbelief. It is a concern of...godless man."

"Religion is clearly seen to be a human attempt to anticipate what God in His revelation wills to do and does do. It is the attempted replacement of the divine work by a human manufacture." (This to me totally sums up Catholicism!)

"It is a feeble but defiant, an arrogant but hopeless, attempt to create something which man could do. In religion man bolts and bars himself against revelation by providing a substitute, by taking away in advance the very thing which has to be given by God. It is never the truth. It is a complete fiction, which has not only little but no relation to God."

"What is the purpose of the universal attempt of religions but to anticipate God, to foist a human product into the place of His word, to make our own images of the One who is known only where He gives Himself to be known."

"The revelation of God denies that any religion is true. No religion can stand before the grace of God as true religion."

30 April 2012 at 23:46  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len said ...
"Karl Barth, who was without a doubt the greatest theologian of the twentieth century."

Really? You are familiar with his work or have you just 'cut and pasted' that? You do know much of what he writes contradicts many of your opinions?

You would do well to remember that without the Church, without religion, you would not know of Christ.

1 May 2012 at 01:41  
Blogger Little Black Sambo said...

A disappointing discussion.
R M Bruton put his finger on it when he pointed out that a lot of the people praising the BCP don't actually use it. The C of E has been getting rid of it and the Authorized Version as fast as they can.

1 May 2012 at 14:52  
Blogger len said...

Dodo(,1 May 2012 01:41)

'You would do well to remember that without the Church, without religion, you would not know of Christ.'(end of statement by Dodo)


Religion actually pointed me away from Christ and gave me a dead lifeless experience which eventually made me give up religion.

It was through a series of tragic circumstances when I searched for answers regarding spiritual truths that I found Jesus Christ not through religion. I now realise (in retrospect ) that Jesus was always there waiting for me to respond to HIM.In the Churches in' Revelation' Jesus stands OUTSIDE waiting to be invited in...How sad this is!.

This is the tragedy for many in religion today they accept 'religion'as being the end object when religion should merely be a 'signpost' pointing to Christ not to itself.

2 May 2012 at 07:27  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len
But how would you have ever known of Jesus Christ if the Church had not brought news of Him to these shores millenia ago?

You might well be a Druid now, though I suspect you would have been taken as a human sacrifice years ago!

2 May 2012 at 19:00  
Blogger len said...

Dodo, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit I could have been almost anything.

Religion has a part to play in salvation and that part is bringing the people to Christ, preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Church in many ways is failing in this task.The Catholic Church has become an institution bringing people to itself as if this is the end goal of salvation.

The Protestant Church in many ways is failing because it has/ and is/ compromising with' the World'.If the Church ceases to be 'salt and light it will get trampled underfoot and this seems to be happening within the 'established Church.'
It is not all 'doom and gloom' though because the 'Biblically grounded' Church is flourishing and growing in parts of the World despite enormous persecution.

3 May 2012 at 08:18  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

len

Total nonsense - again!

Mind you at least you have finally acknowledged the part played by the organised Church in bringing God's message to you and preparing you to receive Christ.

Preserving and spreading the faith today requires the same degree of leadership and correct teaching - not a group of individuals banging their own individual drums and usurping to themselves the authority given by Christ to His Church.

3 May 2012 at 11:58  
Blogger William said...

Len said

"It is not all 'doom and gloom' though because the 'Biblically grounded' Church is flourishing and growing in parts of the World despite enormous persecution."

Very true. It's amasing what is happening in China at the moment.

3 May 2012 at 18:05  
Blogger len said...

Dodo ,it was the courage of individuals who took their lives in their hands and decided to obey God rather than men who gave the Gospel to the World.
The reformers were bullied, tortured ,and executed by your Church because they tried to place the Word of God into the hands of 'common men'.
They had their tongues torn out ,were burned at the stake,tortured persecuted lied about all in the name of your unholy Church.
And you and your fellow 'religionists' are filled with the same spirit that reigned during the inquisition.
You really are contemptible!.

I am proud to be counted amongst those 'individuals ' who banged not 'their drum' but the' drum' announcing the Gospel of Christ.

3 May 2012 at 21:14  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

little pope len
You are a vain and deluded man.

The Gospel was not given to the world in the 16th Century!

Christianity was spread by the early Church from Jerusalem and from Rome. It was brought to these particular shores by the likes of Saint Ninian and Saint Augustine. Some believe the Apostles visited Britain in the 1st Century. Monks and missionaries preserved and spread true Christianity throughout theknown world under the guidance of Rome for 15 hundred years.

How dare you suggest the Catholic Church today sees the situation in the same terms as at the time of the Inquisitions and Reformation. And by the way, many Catholics were also subject to the same treatment at the hands of protestants for their faith, as were protestants at the hands of other protestants.

What a grubby self rightous weasel you are.

3 May 2012 at 23:14  
Blogger len said...

The Catholic Church gave the World a corruption of the Gospel a mixture of Christianity and paganism.

The Catholic church was probably the worst thing that ever happened to the Gospel.

When Satan found he could not kill Christ or the Gospel he corrupted it.This is his method since the beginning of time .Whatever Satan cannot kill he corrupts.He did this from the beginning of time.

'The RCC is a counterfeit...of the worst and most diabolical kind...a form of the anti Christ...to be rejected and denounced...Dr Martin Lloyd -Jones.

4 May 2012 at 08:16  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

So sayeth the weasel little pope len.

Satan cannot possibly corrupt the Gospel or the Church - unless you deny Scripture.

"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Satan corrupts individuals, inflates their egos, confuses their minds and leads them to believe they know it all and have no need to listen to His appointed Shephards.

5 May 2012 at 00:36  
Blogger len said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5 May 2012 at 08:41  
Blogger len said...

Dodo................. Jesus Christ never introduced Peter to the other disciples by saying: 'See, I have appointed Peter as My successor; receive him as your Pope and head of the Church, call him Holy Father, honour and obey him.' On the contrary, Jesus made the following positive declaration, which is diametrically opposed to Roman teaching: 'But be ye not called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shalt exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.' Matthew 23:8-12.

5 May 2012 at 08:51  
Blogger len said...

ALL the disciples were urged to 'feed the flock(not just Peter!.) Peter urged others to do the same.
Peter never claimed' supremacy over all the others ,Peter speaks of himself simply as an elder or pastor. 'Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.' I Peter 1: l.'The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: feed the flock of God that is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.' I Peter 5: 1-3.

5 May 2012 at 08:56  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

little pope len
Yes, yes, I know how you misread scripture.

After His resurrection Christ said these words to Peter - to Peter alone:

"When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.

He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep."


How can you know allof what Jesus said and did? Scripture itselftells us its notall recorded!

The Apostles and disciples would have understood:

"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."

I can't imagine the Apostles running around arguing about this or Peter himself flaunting his authority. Once again you underestimate the Apostles and the early Church.

7 May 2012 at 22:58  
Blogger len said...

Dodo( 7 May 2012 22:58) If that is your 'truth' and you deny any other I guess that is' the truth' that God will allow you to believe.

your' truth'will become your reality.

The Judgement of God is an awesome thing.

8 May 2012 at 08:06  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

little pope len

Indeed it is. Let us hope Christ makes allowances for us all, sinners that we remain.

You really should read scripture with an open heart and not just intellectualise it, clinging on to the odd expression to bolster your insecurity. And that's what "faith alone" and "scripture alone" really is. It is
idolatory of man and idolatory of a book. Christ is bigger than your intellect and His message cannot be contained within a few pages capable of so many different readings. Who are you toclaim you understand it on your own?

As bad as the Roman Church was at the time of the Reformation, and it was bad, I truely believe protestantism has spawned far greater evils.

Through our exchanges I have come to a greater understanding of your system of belief. The more I learn the more I see it as a corruption of the Good News. Regretably, you have not developed any greater understanding of Catholicism, mainly because you do want to. You cling to your old prejudices and judge the Church without penetrating beneath the externals.

My advice to you is to stop reinforcing this distain and read genuine Catholic authors like Blessed Henry Newman.

I am growing tired of these endless, fruitless exchanges. You are not. They appear to simply reinforce your ignorance as if arguing with me somehow proves your devotion.

I will continue to challenge your misrepresentations of Christianity as taught by the Catholic Church and your paranoia about the "Beast of Babylon" and the nonsensical and ridiculous "history" you copy from anti-Catholic websites.

I will not engage in serious conversation with you as it is unproductive.

10 May 2012 at 00:24  

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