Wednesday, May 16, 2012

ASA semantics and lies

The Advertising Standards Authority have issued a statement relating to their investigation of the Coalition for Marriage advertisements. It can be read HERE (or click above).

But here’s the interesting section:
One of the bloggers on whose blog the ads appeared has raised concerns about us contacting him as part of our investigation. We have long found it useful to ask, in confidence, publishers of ads subject to ‘offence’ complaints for their views, because they can give us a valuable insight into whether or not their readers are likely to be offended. They are not the subject of our investigation, as we have made clear to them in this case, and they are not compelled to respond. 
This sounds so utterly reasonable that His Grace must have been completely mistaken by both the tone and content of their initial communication. Silly him: what a stupid pile of ash to have got so scattered about and worked up over the sweet ASA’s polite request for titbits of information to provide them with important ‘valuable insights’. How unnecessarily histrionic of him to have used the word ‘investigation’ when none has been instigated and he is not even compelled to respond, as they ‘made clear’.

Sadly, this is untrue.

The ASA may indeed find it ‘useful to ask, in confidence, publishers of ads subject to “offence” complaints for their views’. But so much hangs on this ‘in confidence’, doesn’t it? If nothing is ever discussed in the open or scrutinised by the light of day, errors remain concealed and ‘evidence’ goes unchallenged. In this case, for example, we may never have discovered that the named complainant (the ‘Jewish Gay and Lesbian Group’) actually never complained at all. The ASA failed to check the validity of a complaint made in their name by an individual who had absolutely no authority to do so. Forgive His Grace, but that’s kind of important, isn’t it? How many other complainants are misleading and manipulating the ASA in order to pursue a personal political campaign? Why is the ASA not more diligent in discerning this?

To state that they are merely seeking ‘valuable insight into whether or not (His Grace’s) readers are likely to be offended’ is a fatuous assertion. What publication is going purposely to publish material which its readers will find offensive? Moreover, what publisher is going to incriminate him/herself by formally admitting that they are publishing material they know to be offensive? The ASA state that His Grace is not the subject of their investigation. He never said he was: he has made it clear that he has been asked to comply with a ‘formal investigation’. But this is semantic. That he is not himself the subject of a formal inquiry was, apparently, ‘made clear’ to him, and also that he is ‘not compelled to respond’.

His Grace was trying very hard to adhere to the ASA’s order request to keep their correspondence confidential. But it is very difficult to do so when they are obfuscating and issuing misleading statements. And if they are not purposely misleading, they are mightily deluded in the extent to which their polite requests for ‘valuable insight’ might be construed as aggressive demands and threats. Consider the email His Grace received:
The attached summarises a complaint we have received about the enclosed advertising, which appeared on the ‘Archbishop Cranmer’ blog. The complaint falls under the harm and offence section of the British Code of Advertising, Sales Promotion and Direct Marketing. Please explain why you thought the advertising was suitable for your readers and whether readers have complained to you direct. Please respond by 21st May at the latest. Please keep this correspondence confidential. If you require a postal copy please let me know. 
Does anyone read in this terse email any mention of His Grace not being compelled to respond? Does anyone detect a tone of asserted authority? Certainly, there are lots of ‘pleases’, but do these not merely embellish what read like a series of demands? Is there not a clearly-stated deadline by which he must respond? Is not that deadline emphatically imposed? Why must His Grace respond by 21st May at the latest if there is no compulsion to respond at all? Why is ‘at the latest’ not swiftly followed by ‘but please feel free not to respond, for you are under no compulsion to do so’? And does not ‘Please explain why...?’ constitute a request for self-justification, and so investigation?

And further, consider these phrases from letters which were attached to this email:
Issue
1. 24 complainants, including the Jewish Gay & Lesbian Group, challenged whether the claim “70% of people say keep marriage as it is” in ads (a), (b), (c) and (d) was misleading and could be substantiated.
2. Ten complainants objected that ads (a) and (c) were offensive.
3. Three complainants objected that ad (a) was misleading, as they did not believe it made clear that the aim of the online petition was to bar same sex marriage.
Investigated under CAP Code (Edition 12) rules 3.1 and 3.3 (Misleading advertising), 3.7 (Substantiation) and 4.1 (Harm and offence).  
Does anyone read anything here which sounds like a polite request? Please note the use of the word ‘investigated’, for His Grace was asked to respond to Issue 2 only. Of course His Grace is not personally being investigated, but he is clearly coming under some considerable pressure to submit, comply and cooperate with a formal investigation. The word ‘investigated’ appears quite prominently before what reads like a series of charges which one feels ought to be followed with the phrase ‘You have the right to remain silent...’. This is manifest intimidation. How is it ‘made clear’ that His Grace is not being investigated or compelled to respond?

And further, he is infomed:
Who we are
The ASA investigates complaints to ensure that non-broadcast marketing communications comply with The UK Code of Non-broadcast Advertising, Sales Promotion and Direct Marketing (The CAP Code), prepared by the Committee of Advertising Practice (CAP). We also investigate complaints to ensure that TV and radio advertising complies with The UK Code of Broadcast Advertising (The BCAP Code). The Government, the Office of Fair Trading and the Courts recognise the ASA as the “established means” of regulating non-broadcast advertising.
This isn’t a friendly chat over a coffee which might elicit ‘valuable insights’. The ASA mention ‘Government’, ‘Courts’ and ‘established means’. If they have no teeth, their gums will clearly suck you to death.

Further still, His Grace was told:
The investigations process
We will consider the complaint under rules 3.1 and 3.3 (Misleading advertising), 3.7 (Substantiation) and 4.1 (Harm and offence) of The CAP Code (attached)...
We intend to deal with the complaint as a formal investigation, which means it will be considered by the ASA Council. We will then draft a recommendation for the Council based on your response to us. Once the Council has made a decision, the adjudication will be published on our website.
What you need to do
We need you to respond to the complaint. The CAP Code requires marketers to avoid causing serious or widespread offence. We require you to explain your rationale for the ad and comment specifically on the points raised in the attached complaint notification. We will be happy to receive anything else you think is relevant. 
Now, call His Grace obtuse or pedantic if you wish, but this plainly says: ‘We need you to respond to the complaint.’ This statement is not qualified. While these attached letters from the bundle were addressed to a third party, His Grace was manifestly expected to glean from them precisely what was being demanded of him. This was the subject of his Q8 in his response to the ASA: it is not ‘made clear’ at all.

And then we get:
It is for you to decide what to submit, but we will need to see robust documentary evidence to back the claims and a clear explanation from you of its relevance and why you think it substantiates the claims. It is not enough to send references to or abstracts of documents and papers without sending the reports in full and specifically highlighting the relevant parts explaining why they are relevant to the matter in hand. 
And, as mentioned above, His Grace was charged specifically with:
2. Ten complainants objected that ads (a) and (c) were offensive. In responding to this point it may assist you to know that the complainants believe the ads are homophobic and offensive.
Your response deadline
The ASA’s effectiveness depends on resolving complaints fairly and swiftly. An unreasonable delay in responding to our enquiries may be considered a breach of The CAP Code. So that we can conclude this matter as soon as possible, please respond in writing, preferably by e-mail to xx@asa.org.uk within SEVEN working days. If you need more time, we may be able to agree to one short extension, but you will need to contact us within the deadline to explain why you are unable to respond sooner and agree a timetable for your response.
If you are not the right person to deal with this letter please tell us and pass the letter on to someone who is. If we do not receive a reply from you by 21 May, we may add your lack of response to the other issues that we are investigating which will form part of any formal published adjudication. 
Since His Grace has had to assume that parts of this communication (the request to respond to Issue 2) apply to him (it is not specified in the covering email), it is not unreasonable to assume that these demands and deadlines also apply to him. There is manifestly an intimidating request for ‘robust documentary evidence’, followed by a threat that non-response is ‘considered a breach of The CAP Code’ and may itself be subject to investigation.

So, contra the ASA's statement on this matter, all that is ‘made clear’ in this communication is that His Grace is expected to comply and cooperate with a ‘formal investigation’, and submit to the asserted authority of the ASA as recognised by ‘the Government, the Office of Fair Trading and the Courts’. It is categorically not stated anywhere that he is ‘not compelled to respond’; indeed, there are so many suggestions to the contrary that the ASA appear not merely to be obfuscating with semantics, but lying.

107 Comments:

Blogger Flossie said...

Wow! They messed with the wrong person, didn't they, Your Grace.

May your olive jar be constantly filled.

16 May 2012 at 09:10  
Blogger Unknown said...

You have much support YG and if the ASA want to bully, you will have a mighty army to back you!

16 May 2012 at 09:13  
Blogger Dr Robert Warde said...

Your Grace as to the ASA posting / letter defending themselves... i see a worm on a hook trying to get off. Dr Robert Warde

16 May 2012 at 09:20  
Blogger Darter Noster said...

I love the sound of frantic back-pedalling in the morning :oD

Well done Your Grace.

DN

16 May 2012 at 09:20  
Blogger Youthpasta said...

"An unreasonable delay in responding to our enquiries may be considered a breach of The CAP Code."

Surely by that sentence alone they have put their own noose around their collective neck!
That and being so incompetent as to not check whether the JGLG were actually taking offence!

The saddest thing about this is that I don't see the ASA changing their approach in the long term (heck, I am not sure that they will change their approach at all!) as the approach to such issues by government has long been placation of special interests over the majority (except in the case of Christianity, which they will batter as much as they want, whenever they want, which they caveat with "But they are the established religion of the country, they are already looked upon with favour").

16 May 2012 at 09:28  
Blogger Hugh Oxford said...

I phoned the ASA this morning to register a formal complaint about their behaviour.

The poor secretary attempted to put me through to the fascist responsible for this, but was knocked back and told me I had to send any complaints in writing.

The ASA are going to have a hell of a job explaining what marriage has to do with homosexuality.

16 May 2012 at 09:35  
Blogger graham wood said...

ASA: "It may assist you to know that the complainants believe the ads are homophobic and offensive."

Cranmer. In order to avoid unecessary and tiresome revolutions of Cranmer's entombed dust any further, perhaps the following reply would be appropriate:

1. "Considering the anonymous status of but 10 complainants, and the public disclaimer issued by the Jewsish group, I have no case to answer."
or alternatively and simply:

2. "I have no case to answer"

and leave it at that.

16 May 2012 at 09:41  
Blogger David C Nicoll said...

A judicial inquiry into abuse of public office seems necessary.

16 May 2012 at 09:45  
Blogger William said...

The ASA is going to have a hell of a job explaining why someone who takes offence over an advert that recommends the current (legal) definition of marriage warrants a formal investigation.

16 May 2012 at 10:02  
Blogger English Pensioner said...

You've made today's Daily Mail! Here.
The ASA can enjoy reading and counting the number of responses that they get.

16 May 2012 at 10:03  
Blogger Gary said...

It's high time that someone started to investigate the dubious practices of the ASA.

16 May 2012 at 10:27  
Blogger Anoneumouse said...

It seems clear to me that an offence of Misfeasance has occurred here. It might be wise for someone to remind the ASA council that they are Jointly and Severally liable.

If not Misfeasance then Malfeasance but most certainly a section 5 public order offence.

16 May 2012 at 10:45  
Blogger Cork said...

If the ASA were a commercial organisation the person/persons responsible for your persecution, for that is what you have been subjected to, would be sacked forthwith. I do not know to whom you can appeal about the conduct of the ASA but it should certainly be brought to book for its disgraceful behaviour.

16 May 2012 at 11:03  
Blogger Hereward said...

There are several sequences of psychological pressure in the documentation:
Complaint – harm and offence – explain. Implies the recipient is being held to account.
Robust documentation - deadline – breach of CAP code. This is intimidation.
Government – Office of Fair Trading – Courts. Implied threat of financial, even custodial, penalties.

These tactics are a disgrace. The ASA is a quango fit for the bonfire.

16 May 2012 at 11:04  
Blogger Jim McLean at Acoustic Village said...

If all it takes is 10 anonymous callers to spur ASA into action, why don't we exploit this and point them in the direction of the BNP, the Secular Society, Stonewall, SKY, QVC and anything and everything that takes our fancy? It seems that the ASA do not triage the complaints, they fire first and then retract, so at least we could have the fun of knowing they were getting the same sort of annoyance as the rest of us!

16 May 2012 at 11:07  
Blogger Simon said...

The ASA has ruled against Paddy Power this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-18075633

What's relevant to His Grace and his congregation is this bit:

"The ASA said it received about 470 complaints, but only 92 of those fell under their remit to investigate because the majority followed the advert being watched online rather than on television."

Oh really? Did someone at the ASA fail to spot that His Grace's blog is not, in fact, a TV channel?

16 May 2012 at 11:13  
Blogger oxonbook said...

I'm with Jim McLean. How do the ASA promote themselves? If it's by advertisements, can we complain about them?

16 May 2012 at 11:15  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

The ASA is wrong on at least two counts: firstly as HG points out, that it pursued it's 'formal investigation' (it named the JGLG as the complainant which automatically invokes the need of a formal investigation) without validating whether the complainant represented and acted on behalf of the JGLG.
http://www.asa.org.uk/Complaints/~/media/Files/ASA/Misc/PDF_ASA8751_Complaint%20about%20your%20ad_v2.ashx

Secondly, subject that 'homosexuality' falls within the general terminology of the word 'sex' as used in it's own published list of areas it acknowledges as being beyond it's remit illustrated here:-

'Areas of complaint outside our remit -

"Sometimes we can't help because the Codes we apply do not cover the type of advertisement or problem complained about. This page provides information on other organisations who can deal with those issues or who can offer advice about them.

...Discrimination on the grounds of race, sex, age or disability"...


http://www.asa.org.uk/Regulation-Explained/What-we-cover/Complaints-outside-remit.aspx

I suspect that the complainant was implying that they, as homosexual in orientation, were offended through their perception of the ad's implied discrimination between heterosexual marriage and same sex marriage.

I am still a little perplexed as to why HG, as not the owner of the ad, did not (as stated by the ASA) simply refer their complaint to be redirected to C4M.

16 May 2012 at 11:17  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

Your Grace

Most wonderfully fought.

Praise The Lord that it was you they picked on and not someone else without the intellect wit and wherewithal to challenge and thereby expose, bullying treachery against decency free speech and expression and the right to associate ie (The right to form groups, to organise and to assemble together with the aim of addressing issues of common concern is a human right. The ability to organise is an important means by which citizens can influence their governments and leaders. The right to freedom of association and assembly is protected in international and regional human rights treaties. These rights are applicable to any issue. Mass protest is a potent symbol of the exercise of this right.)address issues together.

The way it was phrased by ASA could be implied that they were looking for 'witnesses' against C4M as they appear to have pre-judged it already as 'homophobic' as an organisation and wanted to know you opinions if you agreed with this 'homophobic organisation and on what basis..agree but want to make money also or not bothered but only in it for the spondiddlee.

Is this not how witnesses were commanded 'non compulsion' to give evidence against an accused and the witnesses words could also be used against them so that they were told to 'join the accused in the dock'. Is this not how an inquisition operates and works to perfection?

Ernst would have pitied the poor person forced to respond on the concern they could so easily have incriminated themselves by not knowing that just one wrong word in a response would have landed them in severe trouble!..all secretly, mind you.

To the JGLG, when exactly is the demand for any censorship free from the neccessity of a formal investigation.

UPDATED - 15/5/2012. JGLG HAS NOT CALLED FOR CENSORSHIP OF ANYTHING. ONE OF OUR MEMBERS ASKED THE ASA FOR AN INVESTIGATION INTO AN ADVERT SEEN IN A MAGAZINE BECAUSE HE BELIEVED IT TO BE UNLAWFUL. HE WAS NOT ACTING ON BEHALF OF JGLG. WE WOULD LIKE TO STATE THAT CALLING FOR AN INVESTIGATION ISN'T THE SAME THING AS CALLING FOR CENSORSHIP.

"UNLAWFUL" you say.
Weasley disingenuous words from that organisation that they should be ashamed of, should they be better called Janus Gay and Lesbian Group?!

Tolerance appears to not apply to all except the intolerant free, does it not?

"And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the LORD'S, and he will give you into our hands." Trust in Him!

Nearly always in agreeal with you. Bless you Your Grace and well done

Old Ernst

16 May 2012 at 11:21  
Blogger William said...

Simon & Dreadnaught

Good grief. This quango is unravelling before our eyes.

16 May 2012 at 11:22  
Blogger gentlemind said...

Stand outside the fog of war, my friends. Keep your energies away from the diversions of others. Keep moving forward. Keep marriage in mind, in heart, and in deed. And spread the simple truth as you go.

16 May 2012 at 11:41  
Blogger bluedog said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

16 May 2012 at 11:41  
Blogger Nicodemus said...

I understand that the Christian Institute are teaming up with the National Secular Society to persuade Mrs May to strip the word "insulting" out of section 5 of the Public Order Act.

See: http://www.christian.org.uk/news/pressure-on-home-secretary-to-improve-free-speech-law/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+christianinstitute+%28The+Christian+Institute%29&utm_content=FaceBook

It's a strange old world.

16 May 2012 at 11:46  
Blogger GGAANN said...

I suspect that underlings were trying to curry favour with the "grosse kaiser" the Rt Hon Lord Smith of Finsbury. A Blogging Bishop must have appeared a soft target. (for we should not assume any knowledge of history amongst the teenage scribblers; probably all chemistry students anyway)

16 May 2012 at 11:47  
Blogger francis said...

I should have thought the mere phrase "We require you to explain your rationale …" was sufficient to give the lie to the claim that HG was "not compelled to respond". Not to mention the barely-veiled threat of "we may add your lack of response to the other issues that we are investigating".

16 May 2012 at 11:56  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

'...Forgive His Grace, but that’s kind of important, isn’t it?...'

Oh alright, Cranny; consider yourself forgiven.

16 May 2012 at 12:52  
Blogger Anabaptist said...

Is the Rt Hon Lord Smith of Finsbury by any chance the entity formerly known as Chris Smith? If so, maybe that explains a lot.

16 May 2012 at 12:54  
Blogger Hugh Oxford said...

The point is that the PROCESS is the PUNISHMENT.

This is how these people exercise control where no offence has been committed.

16 May 2012 at 13:05  
Blogger bluedog said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

16 May 2012 at 13:08  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

If the ASA felt compelled to release a public statement about this matter, then it knows it has a public relations problem and is attempting to regain control of the narrative. There is a chance this affair could seriously damage its credibility for the long term. And so the attack must be carried with increased vigor.

Once more into the breach for England, Harry and St George!

carl

16 May 2012 at 13:16  
Blogger Owl said...

Having been laid low with a nasty flu for the last few days, I am only now catching up on developements in the "ASA" saga.

The brilliance of HG's replies are a joy to read.

I start to wonder again about all the "new" laws that were supposed to be rolled back by Dave the Knave and the reduction in quangos which he seems to have forgotten about as he is such a busy man.

Shouldn't ASA be the first to go it is such an expensive waste of time and energy?

I must remind him again.

16 May 2012 at 13:39  
Blogger MelonF said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

16 May 2012 at 13:40  
Blogger MelonF said...

Here is an example of bullying language used in another ASA adjudication published today.

[Advertiser] Response: Manhattan Bar did not respond to the ASA's enquiries.

ASA Assessment

The ASA was concerned by Manhattan Bar's lack of response and apparent disregard for the Code, which was a breach of CAP Code (Edition 12) rule 1.7 (Unreasonable delay). We reminded them of their responsibility to respond promptly to our enquiries and told them to do so in future.

16 May 2012 at 13:47  
Blogger St Malachy said...

The ASA are bullies with no statutory authority. Like all bullies they run for cover when called to account.

Well done Your Grace.

16 May 2012 at 13:56  
Blogger Phil Groom said...

ASA = assholes

16 May 2012 at 14:32  
Blogger Preacher said...

Well done Dr Cranmer. Game,set & match I think.
May any other victims of these bullies emulate your stand, then we might be rid of them or they might at least find some manners.
Telling someone to comply or else, is not a request, it' a threat!.

16 May 2012 at 14:49  
Blogger Flossie said...

This is priceless. The Ugley Vicar is questioning whether the C4M ad actually falls within the ASA's remit. He says:

Followers of this blog may be aware that the Advertising Standards Authority has taken up a complaint against an advertisement being carried by the 'Cranmer' blog. You can see the advert and follow the initial reaction here. Read further on the blog for the story so far.

However, in doing a bit of digging around myself, I found this statement on the ASA's own website regarding online advertising:

From March 1st 2011, the UK Code of Non-broadcast Advertising, Sales Promotion and Direct Marketing (the CAP Code) has applied in full to marketing messages online, including the rules relating to misleading advertising, social responsibility and the protection of children. Journalistic and editorial content and material related to causes and ideas - except those that are direct solicitations of donations for fund-raising - are excluded from the remit.

Now forgive me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the C4M advert come into the category of 'material related to causes and ideas'? If so, then it is outside the ASA remit unless it is soliciting funds, which, as an advert, it is not.

http://ugleyvicar.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/does-asas-remit-cover-coalition-for.html

O Lord,let it be so!!!

16 May 2012 at 14:58  
Blogger Pétrus said...

@anabaptist

Yep : Christopher "Chris" Robert Smith, Baron Smith of Finsbury

16 May 2012 at 15:13  
Blogger Oswin said...

An outstanding piece Your Grace; well done!

Of course, it's all 'running to stand still' work; and nothing will sufficiently recompense for the anxiety and stress caused by this absurd calumny.

May God grant you strength, and fortitude; 'perhaps a nice bottle of 'red' too!

16 May 2012 at 15:13  
Blogger Bill said...

ASA - "Yu vill komply viff our instruktionz or elze Yu vill suvver ze conzekvences"

His Grace - "Get stuffed"

ASA - "Awwww. We was only joking."

16 May 2012 at 15:19  
Blogger Little Black Sambo said...

The ASA would find it helpful to know your views.
How would the nature of your views affect their eventual "adjudication"?
Ezra Levant was hauled before the Alberta Human Rights Commission for publishing the cartoons of Mohammed. He was asked to explain his intention in publishing - much the same request as you received. The whole fascinating subsequent discussion is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iMNM1tef7g&feature=relmfu

16 May 2012 at 15:22  
Blogger non mouse said...

We require you to explain your rationale for the ad and comment specifically on the points raised in the attached complaint notification." Is this how our masters phrase a polite request to provide "valuable insight"?

Clearly, the bullies are "linguistically challenged." Sadly, though, they're not even oriented to 'visual literacy' -- not if they find (conventional) wedding pictures "offensive" and worthy of investigation! On that basis, how many homes can they visit without suffering from such images?
_____________


Well done: Your Grace and all your supporters.

16 May 2012 at 15:27  
Blogger Roy said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

16 May 2012 at 15:31  
Blogger Roy said...

Why don't readers of this blog complain to the Independent Reviewer of ASA adjudications and to the chair of the ASA too?

Sir Hayden Phillips is the Independent Reviewer of ASA Adjudications.

e-mail: indrev@asbof.co.uk

Independent Review process
http://www.asa.org.uk/Complaints/Independent-review-process.aspx

The chairman of the ASA is, as others have pointed out, the Rt Hon Lord Smith of Finsbury.

http://www.asa.org.uk/About-ASA/ASA-Council.aspx

Lord Smith's contact details are on his web page at the House of Lords website.

http://www.parliament.uk/biographies/christopher-smith/25312

I have just sent the message below to Sir Hayden Phillips and I copied it to Lord Smith.


Dear Sir Hayden Phillips,

I wish to complain most strongly about the ASA allowing itself to be used by gay activists to stifle fundamental freedoms with its investigation of the "Archbishop Cranmer" blog and the advertisements
shown on it by the Coalition for Marriage. The advertisements are not selling a product. They are part of a perfectly legal campaign and it should have been absolutely obvious to everyone in the ASA that its investigation is a threat to freedom of speech, freedom of thought and freedom of religion. It is highly likely that the person or persons in the ASA who took the decision to proceed with the investigation were perfectly aware of that and that it was their intention to threaten the use of those freedoms in a way which they personally disagreed
with.

Therefore I hope you will instruct the ASA to issue a public apology and give a public assurance that it will never again allow itself to be used in such a manner.

Yours sincerely,

...

P.S. I am copying this to the Rt Hon Lord Smith of Finsbury in his capacity as chairman of the ASA.

16 May 2012 at 16:07  
Blogger francis said...

carl jacobs: "the attack must be carried with increased vigo[u]r"

Yes, victory in this one, slightly (if I may say so) peripheral case, will count for little unless every effort is made to ensure that the temporary discomfiture of the ASA is turned into a full-blown rout of all state-sponsored enemies of freedom of expression.

When you have your foot on the throat of a vicious creature, it's wise not to take it off.

16 May 2012 at 16:22  
Blogger graham wood said...

Non Mouse. ASA is "linguistically challenged. Indeed. but also etymologically - hence my enquiry as to their take on the word "homophobic"


Dear Sirs,

Apb. Cranmer's Blog.

I understand the ASA has established a complaints procedure on behalf of a few anonymous complainants that an Internet advert carried by the above, and others, is regarded as being "homophobic".
However on examining the photographs contained in the advert very carefully I noticed that each one portrayed a man and a woman, in fact pictures of brides and bridgrooms, and without a single exception.
If there were only two females portrayed in each frame then, technically, that could just be construed as "homophobic".
I would be grateful if you would kindly explain therefore how the ASA understands the word "homophobic" in the context of this advert?
Also, please advise how photos of such evident gaiety, and clear "gender" balance infringe your criteria that adverts should not be "misleading, harmful or offensive".

16 May 2012 at 16:39  
Blogger Flossie said...

Your Grace, you have really made it bigtime now - never mind the Daily Mail, you are in PINK NEWS!

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/05/16/asa-responds-to-claim-it-persecuted-religious-blog-in-investigating-anti-gay-marriage-ad/

However, I don't think the commenters like you very much - 'barking mad bloody christian - lying - right wing bigot and brainwashed goon - odious, arrogant, oppressive - demonic- a nasty piece of work' - Oh dear! But they don't like most of us, either.

16 May 2012 at 16:40  
Blogger Atlas Shrugged said...

Putting things into context.

We have riots breaking out on European soil, morally and financially bankrupt national governments, ever rising unemployment, corporate fascism/marxism, crime, youth suicide, state sponsored child snatching, poverty creating stagflation, government corruption, and all the rest too numerous to mention, yet 'our' government wishes to spend tax payers cash on whether someone somewhere may get offended about something or another.

What is more, when perfectly sane and rational people like myself point out this growing insanity, it is people like myself who are seen to be fruit cakes, or whatever inane insult which comes to mind.

There is increasing little which is sane about the world we now all currently inhabit.

Indeed IMO, to be seen as sane in this world, is the true definition of the most profound form of madness.

16 May 2012 at 17:05  
Blogger David B said...

I don't know if this post will get through the Daily Fail censorship, but for what it is worth there follows a copy paste of what I have just posted in their comments.

"This issue is not in the least about the rights and wrongs of gay marriage, but about freedom of speech.

I am a liberal atheist, though a heterosexual one, and fairly frequently post comments on the Cranmer blog, which he graciously allows to stand even though what I say may sometimes cause offence to him, and to other Christians who comment there.

Among my comments are some in support of legalising gay marriage.

Both I and the most outspoken gay atheist there have publicly supported Cranmer on this issue."

David B

16 May 2012 at 17:13  
Blogger francis said...

I do hope that Graham Wood is not labouring under the misapprehension that the "homo-" in "homophobic", or indeed "homosexual", has anything to do with Latin homo ("man"). It is the Greek ὁμός (homos, "the same").

Not that anyone at the ASA will have a clue anyway, and anything which may increase their bewilderment and dismay can only be a good thing.

16 May 2012 at 17:17  
Blogger William said...

Re Pink News

There was at least one voice of reason amongst the howling wolves:

"I question the use of the word “homophobia” by our gay lobby as being in any way appropriate in branding those who oppose our viewpoints.

We scream “homophobe” these days at anyone who has a differing opinion from us yet we’ve forgotten what it actually means.

Phobia is fear of someone/thing, not if you hold a differing opinion to them.

But in their zeal to stymie any kind of a rational debate on the issues that concern some gay people, like gay marriage, the militant gay fringe hurl “homophobe” at all and sundry who oppose it.

Hasn’t it occurred to radical gays who profess to speak for all that those who don’t agree with marriage – many gays included! – do so not because they fear us but because they don’t happen to agree that it is the way forward?

In this upside down PC-gone-insane world, the word “Homophobe” is now bandied about like “racist” to silence debate and force our demands on the majority.

Using the “homophobe” is a shamefully cowardly way of forcing an argument."

16 May 2012 at 17:20  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace. The Inspector concurs with you. What you received was a virtual subpoena, that if you ignored, you risked being dragged from your palace and thrown in front of your accusers. This heavy handedness is an absolute disgrace in a free country, and if any good comes of this incident, it will be that the ASA be held accountable to a parliamentary committee.

Having said that, the Inspector is in no doubt that the ASA does some worthy work. However, it is quite obvious that it must confine itself to the commercial world. Interfering in politics is quite outside its remit. It has to be, otherwise every political party’s manifesto must be subject to the same scrutiny, both DURING and AFTER an election. Now if ever the truth was misrepresented to millions of people, it’s by those things…

Men, the Inspector implores you: We must pursue this unauthorised political animal version with gusto, without quarter, to bring the quarry down, skin it while still alive, then tear it limb from limb, and blood our faces with it’s lifeless corpse ! This is Cranmer’s finest hour yet. And so to the chase, tally ho !

16 May 2012 at 17:28  
Blogger DeeDee99 said...

I'm not sure if this is really a suitable suggestion for Your Grace, but I'm saying it anyway

"Sock it to them"

They deserve it.

16 May 2012 at 17:42  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Simon: "The ASA has ruled against Paddy Power this morning: [...]"

Paddy Power like sailing close to the wind in their adverts. As I pointed out on a previous thread, this advert of
Jesus having a bit of a flutter with his mates was adjudicated on the same harm and offence section as the C4M thing and pulled after lots of complaints by religious people using the ASA to police their sense of offence for them. The thing was a bit weird because the image is hardly offensive in the general scheme of things is it?

16 May 2012 at 17:47  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Perhaps someone would like to send the ASA this when they complain. It has a certain elegance to it and it seems quite appropriate in the circumstances.

16 May 2012 at 17:50  
Blogger Mark In Mayenne said...

I don't think it's unreasonable to hold the ASA to the standards it expects of the people it monitors. It seems to me that a statement that one is "required to respond" by a certain date, when one is not required to respond at all is neither "honest" nor "truthful".

16 May 2012 at 17:54  
Blogger Charles Dawne said...

Well done Your Grace for standing your ground on this. As someone else has said it is fun to watch them squirm and back peddle.

But it is obvious to me that you are well astute enough to know when someone is in the wrong.

I wonder how many other people in the past have been scared or brow beaten into submission by their officiousness?

Not everyone is as well educated as an Archbishop.

16 May 2012 at 18:06  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace. Pink News commentators are having a right bitch about you on this. The Inspector tried to post a supportive remark, but couldn't get through, his lap top being a heterosexual one. Here it is...

“Ah, there you are gay types. That Cranmer fellow is standing up for freedom don’t you know. Must keep authoritarian government and it’s agencies in check. Gays are in the ascendancy right now, but it could all change overnight. You people have the most to worry about from authoritarianism. You see, the public see you as agitators. Authoritarian governments don’t like agitators. Thought you should know this. Now, carry on...”

16 May 2012 at 18:12  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "The Inspector tried to post a supportive remark, but couldn't get through, his lap top being a heterosexual one."

C'mon, embrace your real nature. You'll be much happier I reckon. ;)

16 May 2012 at 18:21  
Blogger Flossie said...

Danjo, I salute you! Though from the other side of the fence, as it were, you make intelligent and sometimes humerous posts. That made me chortle!

16 May 2012 at 18:31  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. Pink News commentators are probably the biggest bunch of self righteous whiners the Inspector has ever come across. They are welcome to themselves...

16 May 2012 at 18:39  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Like with like there DanJo -

If I was a follower of Jesus I would be mighty peeved at the way it seems to be ok to lark about with Christianity but never ok to do the same towards Muslims and the teflon coated Islam and its murdering mad-man Prophet.

16 May 2012 at 18:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Had to come back to check the word ‘whiners’ was used. For a dreadful moment then the Inspector thought...

16 May 2012 at 18:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Dreadnaught. If I was a follower of Jesus...

You’re no great loss, that’s for sure...

16 May 2012 at 18:48  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dreadnaught: "If I was a follower of Jesus I would be mighty peeved at the way it seems to be ok to lark about with Christianity but never ok to do the same towards Muslims and the teflon coated Islam and its murdering mad-man Prophet."

It's OK to do the same towards Muslims. It's just that no-one really dares in adverts. I think the Salmon Rushdie thing brought it to a head.

16 May 2012 at 19:04  
Blogger Flossie said...

Good grief! Did I really spell humourous like that? Don't know my humour from my forearm!

Well,nearly.

16 May 2012 at 19:05  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Tentatively offers this as a trial run.

16 May 2012 at 19:08  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

DanJ0. Muhammed’s men are going to throw you off a cliff anyway, so there can’t be much more they can do to you for portraying the mad man’s image...

16 May 2012 at 19:27  
Blogger Ian Hills said...

There is a campaign going on, spearheaded by David Davis, to repeal section 5 of the public order act, which prevents free speech. The campaign is supported by many MPs - see

http://www.reformsection5.org.uk/

16 May 2012 at 19:32  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Yeah DanJo sure - but I'm talking about life in the real world where criticism,lampooning of Muslims or Islam or even drawing a cartoon of a beardy guy with a bomb in his turban, could result in bloody mayhem anywhere in the world. The Western concept of freedom of speech and expression has already been neutered and is continuing to be suffocated by Tit-Heads like the ASA and the rest of the EU driven PC lobbies.

16 May 2012 at 19:44  
Blogger Kinderling said...

"the Inspector is in no doubt that the ASA does some worthy work..."

Every other UK TV advert a sexual innuendo, pornography available when selling phone-sex on late nite TV channels accessible to children...

No, those people are only working for the money.

16 May 2012 at 20:18  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Kinderling,
You are right. The sexuality in TV adverts, Bill Boards, and magazines are beyond the pale and are encouraging young children to consider that sexuality is for them in their dress and everything.

PS I am completing this in Firefox and it comes up with spell checker. Is that something you have added Your Grace?

16 May 2012 at 20:30  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Well done Kinderling, for highlighting those evils. It is the Inspector's opinion that having a homosexual in charge of the ASA is not the right choice. You see, he tends to believe that homosexuals are ‘live for today’ types who have no vested interest in the development and safety of our subsequent generations. One has to ask oneself if his position is indeed still tenable after the stone has been rolled away to reveal the creature that is the ASA on it’s back with legs struggling in all directions...

16 May 2012 at 20:35  
Blogger Geoff said...

Your Grace
BRAVO
The Advertising Standards Authority is an absolute shower which seems content to condone the advertising of Marie Stopes (an abortion provider) but not of faith groups. Its chairman is a former Labour Cabinet Minister who is living in an openly GAY (Good as You) relationship.
I oppose same sex marriage - partially because I do not see the point - partnerships give property rights but mostly because I believe same sex marriage discriminates against faith groups
The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) recently ruled that nation states do not have to legalise same sex marriage but that if they do and any organisation (such as Roman Catholics, High Church Anglicans, Certain Jewish Groups, Muslim Groups etc) refuse to conduct such same sex marriages they THEY WILL BE GUILTY of discrimination. It doesn't matter what Lynn Featherstone (LIB DEM: Wood Green and Hornsey) says, if she legalises same sex marriage she will either force these groups to defy the law or close or go underground. All we need is this supposedly CONSERVATIVE led coalition is to re-enact the Test Acts and the marginalisation of faith groups will be complete.
I want to send you money!!!
Geoff Cavender Milton Keynes

16 May 2012 at 20:39  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Your Grace, to paraphrase Bomber Harris at this juncture of the struggle with the ASA...

They have sown the wind, now let them reap the whirlwind

16 May 2012 at 20:47  
Blogger letmethink said...

@anababtist & @petrus

The entity is also chairman of the Environment Agency . . .

16 May 2012 at 20:54  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Just let the ASA keep on digging the hole they're in! It could get even more amusing.

16 May 2012 at 20:56  
Blogger anna anglican said...

@Inspector, or as Churchill said "we may allow ourselves a brief period of rejoicing"

I knew that it couldn't have been my brothers and sisters in the gay/lesbian Jewish movement who gave his Grace to the Sanhedrin of the ASA, not after his Grace's staunch support of Jews and Israel!

16 May 2012 at 20:58  
Blogger anna anglican said...

Ouch, I was just praying for Dodo- as I couldn't see he had posted for a while. And when I've just posted, there he is - shaggy mane and all!

I only hope that Al is OK- he hasn't posted dispatches for a while! Hope he is OK!

Carl Jacobs and Len aren’t around either- I hope that they aren’t having difficulties in the construction industry (I think a Panel beater is construction and Carl is a Civil Engineer).

And Alpha hasn't posted for a good few days - hope I didn't hurt him too much with my comments.

16 May 2012 at 21:02  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Anna, no time for rejoicing. We are next to them now, we must thrust the short sword in immediately...

16 May 2012 at 21:04  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

16 May 2012 at 22:30  
Blogger Alpha Draconis said...

@Anna Anglican,
I have been tasked with an most urgent mission. In 2200 AD, your Monarch gave to the Emperor of the Draconis a gift of the upmost importance- a simple battered drum belonging to an F. Drake - although it did not seem so at the time. However we were told of the legends of the Earther homeworld, for it was said that if Albion was ever in mortal danger the drum would beat and Drake would return to defend the country; apparently this drum can be heard to beat at times when England is at war or significant national events take place- and now one hundred years later and across the space- time vortex-for whatever reason this infernal device has been beating incessantly for the past 5 days – and I have been tasked with returning it to the Martian resistance (the descendents of you British) so that Drake may take his place amongst those who fight for liberty, it was written long ago :
“Take my drum to England, hang et by the shore, Strike et when your powder’s runnin’ low; If the Dons sight Devon, I’ll quit the port o’ Heaven, An’ drum them up the Channel as we drummed them long ago.”

16 May 2012 at 22:30  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Anna Anglican

Carl is a Civil Engineer.

Civil? GAAAGH! GET IT OFF! GET IT OFF! IT BURNS! IT BURNS! GET IT OFF! GAAAGH!

[Collapses in exhaustion]

carl is a Systems Engineer.

16 May 2012 at 22:37  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Anna Anglican

Remember that I live in the United States, and so I must live with the perpetual injustice of Britain having chosen to center time on Greenwich. As a result I am 5 or 6 hours behind you. If you in the UK would simply re-orient your day by a few hours then I wouldn't have to post after most of you have gone to bed. Perhaps I should file a complaint with the ASA over this offensive act of blatant anti-Americanism.

carl

16 May 2012 at 22:45  
Blogger Office of Inspector General said...

Carl, while we’re at it, let’s adopt America’s attempt at English too !

16 May 2012 at 23:19  
Blogger HampsteadOwl said...

At the risk of making an obvious point, which has probably been made before, is not an authority that

(a) Fails in its original correspondence even to mention, let alone make clear, that there is no compulsion to respond; and

(b) Constructs that correspondence in a way that is completely misleading as to what is or is not required

not as fit body to determine whether or not advertisements are truthful or misleading?

On the question of whether the advertisements themselves are offensive and/or homophobic, anyone can see at a glance that they are not. The ASA should have instantly dismissed this part of the complaint as without foundation.

Whether the motivation behind the campaign being advertised - to prevent same-sex marriage - is itself homophobic is a different question, and debatable. But that surely has got nothing to do with the ASA whose remit, as I understand it, extends only to the content of advertisements, not to the rights and wrongs of what is being advertised.

By failing to make this distinction, it seems to me that the ASA is allowing itself, wittingly or unwittingly, to be manipulated as part of a political campaign. The real worry is that it may be wittingly.

16 May 2012 at 23:26  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Inspector
I'd say carl was more than 6 hours behind us, what!

Anna
Thank you for your kind thoughts.I do hope you were not praying that I might change from a heterosexual Catholic, mind!

16 May 2012 at 23:30  
Blogger Mr Integrity said...

Carl,
I understand your difficulty but we have the same problem with the Middle and Far East.
Having an international business, we get calls from India that wake us up in the morning and calls that wake us up at night after we have gone to bed.
Perhaps we could get God to cause the World to stop again and we would all know where we are. In Bedlam.

16 May 2012 at 23:30  
Blogger Hugh said...

Ex Wikipaedia

The ASA is a non-statutory organisation and so cannot interpret or enforce legislation. However, its code of advertising practice[1] broadly reflects legislation in many instances

Guy Parker has been Chief Executive of the ASA since June 2009. His salary for this role is £120,000.

Methinks Parker's £10,000 pcm is wasted. To my mind this was a clear case of intimidation at the instigation of some very unpleasant people which should have been properly vetted by the said Parker who failed. ergo Parker should resign.

16 May 2012 at 23:38  
Blogger Hugh said...

Ex Wikipaedia

The ASA is a non-statutory organisation and so cannot interpret or enforce legislation.

However, its code of advertising practice broadly reflects legislation in many instances

Guy Parker has been Chief Executive of the ASA since June 2009. His salary for this role is £120,000.

Methinks Parker's £10,000 pcm is wasted. To my mind this was a clear case of intimidation at the instigation of some very unpleasant people which should have been properly vetted by the said Parker who failed. ergo Parker should resign.

16 May 2012 at 23:39  
Blogger Hugh said...

And further I see that the budget for this incompetent shower is about £ 7m pa in 2010

16 May 2012 at 23:45  
Blogger Dodo the Dude said...

Let's look at how the ASA responded 'objectively' recently to over 1000 complaints (not 10) on Abortion

The UK's first TV commercial for pregnancy services, by the non-profit-making Marie Stopes clinic, (so, how much do its staff get paid?) was screened in May. It triggered 1,054 complaints to the ASA, which ruled that the ad had not breached its code.

It said: "It was an ad for a general pregnancy advice service for women who wished to learn about and discuss their options which might include, but were not limited to, abortion."

A "general pregnancy advice service service", indeed.

Close the muppets down!

16 May 2012 at 23:52  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

OIG

let’s adopt America’s attempt at English too!

An excellent idea! We have implemented a number of pragmatic improvements since we took ownership. Efficiency has increased over 27%. Consider how much time is saved just by eliminating all those extraneous vowels in words such as 'vigor.' Truly the US is Britain's greatest gift to the world.

carl

16 May 2012 at 23:53  
Blogger David B said...

@ Dodo re Stopes

They seemed to do better in the past, then.

David B

17 May 2012 at 00:08  
Blogger FrankC said...

Methinks that AC's response should have included "Arkell v. Pressdam" and the Duke of Wellington's reply "Publish, and be damned."

17 May 2012 at 00:25  
Blogger non mouse said...

Efficiency has increased over 27%. Consider how much time is saved just by eliminating all those extraneous vowels in words such as 'vigor.'
Why, Mr. Jacobs --- how you do make up for it when you open your mouths. I won't venture into percentages, but you must admit to lengthening every vowel several times over!!

And as to 't' and 'd' ---how will your illiterates** distinguish between "metal" and "medal" this summer? [Naht thad Ah suppose id'll maedderrr so looang as the ayethuletes take ahll the gold bayeck home :) ].

Still, let me express appreciation of your correctives regarding certain froglike spellings: meter, e.g.

Oh, and if you hurl "racism" at me re the frogs... then not only are you deaf to their throatiness, you are the friend of our enemy ... . To bring the discussion slightly back on-thread-- their template, i.e. 'bureaucracy' is all over these quangos/agencies/euinspired "Offices." So is the hint of "guilty until proved innocent" that's informing behaviour like ASA's.
_____________
**Yes, we have them too. franco-german education prevails throughout the West.

17 May 2012 at 03:36  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

non mouse

Well, I must admit that Americans do like listening to a feminine voice with a British accent. You can't go wrong with Mrs Emma Peel. But your example is faulty. The phonetic difference between 'medal' and 'metal' is glaringly obvious. Metal is pronounced "meh-dle" whereas medal is pronounced "meh-dal." The slight "d-ification" of the 't' allows for more efficient pronunciation of 'metal.'

That's the great thing about the English language. You can verbify anything.

carl

17 May 2012 at 05:18  
Blogger David B said...

HG said

"It is categorically not stated anywhere that he is ‘not compelled to respond’; indeed, there are so many suggestions to the contrary that the ASA appear not merely to be obfuscating with semantics, but lying."

Lying or some sort of the mental reservation so beloved of senior Catholics when they pretend to co-operate with civil authorities concerning serious crime?

Not that the two are necessarily mutually inconsistent.

David

17 May 2012 at 08:42  
Blogger Lady Anne said...

I wonder how long it will be before (if the government can't get gay marriage through in the teeth of public opinion) marriage is abolished altogether, because it offends some people?

You have sent them a masterly defence, Your Grace.

17 May 2012 at 09:04  
Blogger Nowhere man said...

Well done your grace, you have punctured the ASA and shown it to be full of hot air.

This victory should be followed up with a complaint of lying, intimidation and over reaching of its authority.

Pursue the CEO and get him the sack, along with the officers responsible for the intimidatory letter to you.

Like all bullies when stood up to we find that they are all bluster and bravado with nothing to back them up.

Don't let this go.... Claim damages.

17 May 2012 at 09:08  
Blogger William said...

Nowhere Man

Quite. A claim for lawyers fees and two boxes of Rioja is certainly on the cards.

17 May 2012 at 09:44  
Blogger Hereward said...

I wouldn't sue for damages YG.
Seek justice and restitution for actual expenses but not retribution.

Demanding a substantial payout would backfire with accusations of ulterior financial motives.

17 May 2012 at 10:03  
Blogger Lady Anne said...

Would Your Grace like some pictures of weddings to decorate your page? They do look nice, and happy, and this is the season of the year when many happen?

17 May 2012 at 14:15  
Blogger Naomi King said...

It would seem to me that the ASA are heterophobic, from their response to the C4M advert. Maybe it is because of the sexual unorthodoxy of their chairman, the Rt Hon Lord Smith of Finsbury.

And well said William

William said...
"Re Pink News

"I question the use of the word “homophobia” by our gay lobby as being in any way appropriate in branding those who oppose our viewpoints.

We scream “homophobe” these days at anyone who has a differing opinion from us yet we’ve forgotten what it actually means.

Phobia is fear of someone/thing, not if you hold a differing opinion to them.

But in their zeal to stymie any kind of a rational debate on the issues that concern some gay people, like gay marriage, the militant gay fringe hurl “homophobe” at all and sundry who oppose it.

Hasn’t it occurred to radical gays who profess to speak for all that those who don’t agree with marriage – many gays included! – do so not because they fear us but because they don’t happen to agree that it is the way forward?

In this upside down PC-gone-insane world, the word “Homophobe” is now bandied about like “racist” to silence debate and force our demands on the majority.

Using the “homophobe” is a shamefully cowardly way of forcing an argument."

16 May 2012 17:20"

Why shouldn't we be frightened of homosexuals there character is not attractively described in Romans 1, as you will recall...

ROM 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

ROM 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

ROM 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Not an attractive character type I would suggest.

17 May 2012 at 23:15  
Blogger William said...

Naomi

Just to be clear; that was a quote from one brave, lone voice in the Pink News comments section. One that I happen to whole-heartedly agree with. It seems to me that homosexuals are just as much the victims of radical gay activists and politcally correct initiatives by the Conservative party as everyone else.

18 May 2012 at 08:58  
Blogger Oswin said...

William: I agree too.

19 May 2012 at 17:09  
Blogger Rev. Roland said...

Moderates - both heterosexual and homosexual - are being put into concentration camps for cultural extermination.

revroland.com

25 May 2012 at 23:21  

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